Are Kyrie, Steph, and Steve Nash the only elite ball handlers and shooters?

[Kblaze8855]

"Elite" is hard to quantify which is why its arguable but it seems you rarely get both in one package...and I feel like you should more often.

Those are the skills the little gym built kids should have.

But it seems most people on one list arent on the others. The handles all time list...you would get names like....



Kyrie
Isiah
Steph
Paul
Iverson
Tim Hardaway
Shamgod
Kenny Anderson
Jason Williams
Crawford
Rod Strickland

You might get a Tiny Archibald, Pistol Pete, Steve Francis, or Baron Davis mention even. Pearl Washington if you go into college.


For shooters you would get


Steph
Ray Allen
Nash
Kyrie
Peja
Bird
Drazen
Reggie
Klay
Mark Price
Durant
Dirk

Guys like that.

Obvious reason some of them wouldnt be on a handles list. Size mostly. But you could argue for Nash I think.

Not many even justify an honorable mention on both.


Chris Paul can shoot. You putting him next to Nash and Steph? nash. But on the other hand...Nash has handles...you putting him next to Kyrie and Isiah Thomas?

Maybe. Maybe not.

Possible the elite on two list guys are just Kyrie and Steph. Id at least consider Nash and maybe Pistol though. Nash had wicked ball control and got wherever he wanted without being athletic. Counts for something. Pistol didnt have the same moves modern guys had...but some modern guys dont have his either. Hes hard to place. Seems nobody who watched him would leave him off these lists which is worth mentioning....

I can see us having more of these gym built dual threats going forward with the better youth training kids get now and handle gloves and insane shooting drills....but to this point?

I feel like there should have been more people on both lists.

You cant go by yourself and work on D...or rebounding really.

Shooting and handles? You have to play too but...a lot of the work is you alone while everyone else is living life. The nicest shooters I knew(Shammond Williams being #1)...none had nasty handles. Now you arent gonna take the ball...and they sure as hell had good handles for the competition they were playing...but you arent running anything back on some "Greatest move of all time?" shit.

Handles and shooting are the first things you notice about a basketball player you never saw before. Go play...the guy with handles...he stands out as someone who can play. The guy who can shoot....you can tell. Guys with both are a problem.

Feels like we should have had more "Jesus christ..." ball handlers by now who could also wow you with shooting.

Most of them can score....but thats not the same thing.

Oh and you know who by career highlights might end up on both lists?

James Harden.

Perhaps he shouldnt.....but shouldnt doesnt really matter does it?

[Vino24]

Kyrie is elite if he was a streetball player. However NBA is a team sport and his constant over dribbling lowers the ceiling of his teams offense.

[Kblaze8855]

Kyrie is elite if he was a streetball player. However NBA is a team sport and his constant over dribbling lowers the ceiling of his teams offense.


So Kyrie is in fact not an elite ball handler because you think he dribbles too much? That what youre saying?

You think anyone you think is an elite ball handler...would say he isnt?

[Vino24]

So Kyrie is in fact not an elite ball handler because you think he dribbles too much? That what youre saying?
yep. part of being elite is not disrupting the flow. Nash was a master at it

[Kblaze8855]

Well...ill just say I suspect 100% of the people to ever play nba basketball would disagree and leave it at that.

[Vino24]

Well...ill just say I suspect 100% of the people to ever play nba basketball would disagree and leave it at that.
agree to disagree. kyrie is "entertaining" not a winning brand. a player like nash, LeBron, cp3 are purposeful and calculated

[3ball]

.
Curry is bad at contested mid-range:




2019 Playoffs


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2019/9Qeecr.gif

https://stats.nba.com/player/201939/shots-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs


So looks like he shoots 29% on tightly contested two's outside of 10 feet, and 39% on contested.. :cheers: :applause:..

[RRR3]

Chris Paul?

[3ball]

Curry isn't an all-time shooter because he's bad at contested shots

He shoots very badly at contested mid-range (see post above) and 80% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13681661&postcount=41) of his threes are open

You can't be considered a goat shooter if you're bad at contested jump shots

[Vino24]

.
Curry is bad at contested mid-range:




2019 Playoffs


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2019/9Qeecr.gif

https://stats.nba.com/player/201939/shots-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs


So looks like he shoots 29% on tightly contested two's outside of 10 feet, and 39% on contested.. :cheers: :applause:..
3ball on a full Curry meltdown :oldlol:

[tontoz]

Handles can be a bit subjective. Steph can get pretty careless with the ball at times. maybe that would fall under passing. Nash had the same issue, maybe not as much as Steph.

Kyrie has the best 1 on 1 handles I have ever seen, but that is also his big problem. He dribbles too much which bit him in the ass in the playoffs. Playing with LeBron took the ball out of his hands and minimized the problem.

I would love to see Price in this era. His handles might not have been as flashy as the other guys but he was very effective without the downsides. He was also a great shooter from everywhere with a very quick release.

[Wally450]

I consider handles to be being able to dribble out of double teams or any sort of trouble the player puts themselves into. Even 1 on 1, usually getting whatever shot they want. Theses guys can do that.

I'd even consider Jamal Crawford in this category.

[ImKobe]

Curry isn't an all-time shooter because he's bad at contested shots

He shoots very badly at contested mid-range (see post above) and 80% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13681661&postcount=41) of his threes are open

You can't be considered a goat shooter if you're bad at contested jump shots

Yet you base this on one Playoff run, where he's taken about 4 of those shots in the mid-range. Why did you not include the 3-point one, maybe because he shot 62.5% on those?

It's just the smallest sample size possible, using that to say that he's not an all-time shooter is just flat out dishonest.

[Kblaze8855]

Curry isn't an all-time shooter because he's bad at contested shots

He shoots very badly at contested mid-range (see post above) and 80% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13681661&postcount=41) of his threes are open

You can't be considered a goat shooter if you're bad at contested jump shots


Whoever you think is a great shooter...thinks hes a great shooter. Moving along....

[Kblaze8855]

Handles can be a bit subjective. Steph can get pretty careless with the ball at times. maybe that would fall under passing. Nash had the same issue, maybe not as much as Steph.

Kyrie has the best 1 on 1 handles I have ever seen, but that is also his big problem. He dribbles too much which bit him in the ass in the playoffs. Playing with LeBron took the ball out of his hands and minimized the problem.

I would love to see Price in this era. His handles might not have been as flashy as the other guys but he was very effective without the downsides. He was also a great shooter from everywhere with a very quick release.


I felt id get pushback on Prince though mostly from people who didnt see him play.

[3ball]

Yet you base this on one Playoff run, where he's taken about 4 of those shots in the mid-range. Why did you not include the 3-point one, maybe because he shot 62.5% on those?

It's just the smallest sample size possible, using that to say that he's not an all-time shooter is just flat out dishonest.
When NBA.com gets their prior year's stats back online, I'll post prior years for Curry

I'm sure he shoots poorly on contested mid-range his whole career.

[kennethgriffen]

stockton?

price?

billups?

CP3?

harden?

Bibby?

Crawford?

kidd? ( 2nd half of career )



theres probly a bunch


wtf lol... the cut off can't be some 50/40/90 club either cause he has kyrie in there



or does OP only count street ball moves as handles

[Kblaze8855]

Shiiiit....if we counting Mike Bibby....

[RRR3]

Shiiiit....if we counting Mike Bibby....
Chris Paul :rant

[Young X]

If Kyrie is included then so should CP3.

In his prime shot 48/38/88, with only 2.4 turnovers (despite getting 10 assists) over 11 seasons.

In one season, he shot over 50% from midrange, 40% from 3 and 90% from the line, with a 4.4 assist to turnover ratio. Then in the playoffs he shot 51/42/94.

I don't know what happened to him this season, but he used to shoot lights out.

[Kblaze8855]

Obviously Chris Paul can shoot but in discussions on best shooters ever I don

[tpols]

yea, but nash and kyrie dont play off ball exceptionally. They spot up a bit, maybe a curl her and there, but they arent running absurd amounts of route trees.

Thats the dimension along with the handles, and shooting that is making Curry the GOAT offensive force.

[tontoz]

Shooting 37% from 3 is good, but not elite. There are plenty of guys who can shoot well with good handles but elite at both is a different discussion.

[PP34Deuce]

Mark price was curry like in the days...

Chris Jackson too

[iamgine]

Well I'd put Lillard at that list. How about guys like Arenas, Kemba, D'angelo?

[Turbo Slayer]

3ball on a full Curry meltdown :oldlol:

Right :lol

[tontoz]

Well I'd put Lillard at that list. How about guys like Arenas, Kemba, D'angelo?


Tier 2 for Lillard....maybe 3 or 4 for the other guys. I'd put CP3 in tier 2 as well.

One thing all great shooters seem to have in common is shooting around 90% from the foul line. If a guy is shooting below 85% from the line then typically they aren't an elite jump shooter.

[tontoz]

yea, but nash and kyrie dont play off ball exceptionally. They spot up a bit, maybe a curl her and there, but they arent running absurd amounts of route trees.

Thats the dimension along with the handles, and shooting that is making Curry the GOAT offensive force.


Off the ball movement should would be a good topic on it's own, but not that relevant to this one.

[3ball]

Right :lol
It's not my fault that Curry is a bad contested jumpshooter by rarely shooting contested threes (80% of Curry's threes are open), and shooting very poorly on contested mid-range

[Gougou]

ehh why didn't pass to ibaka for easy dunk?

[And1AllDay]

I would add Kobe and LeBron

[3ball]

:rolleyes:




Right :lol



Curry shoots 30% on contested threes:



2019 Playoffs

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-22-2019/C1SSZA.gif



Curry is bad also bad at contested mid-range:



2019 Playoffs


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2019/9Qeecr.gif

https://stats.nba.com/player/201939/shots-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs



So he shoots 29% on tightly contested two's outside of 10 feet, and 39% on contested.. and 30% on contested 3's...

So he is NOT a good contested jumpshooter and therefore doesn't compare to bird or kobe.. :cheers: :applause:..

[tontoz]

I would add Kobe and LeBron


No thread is complete without mentioning one of those guys, even if they are irrelevant to the topic.

I have only used the filter once in all these years but i might have to do it again with screwball. His copy and paste spamming is beyond ridiculous.

[eliteballer]

Flat out outrageous you'd mention Kyrie but not Stockton.

[eliteballer]

What about McGrady? (When he was healthy).

[eliteballer]

Also............the logo.

KBlaze looking like Wizards Jordan out here.

[And1AllDay]

No thread is complete without mentioning one of those guys, even if they are irrelevant to the topic.

I have only used the filter once in all these years but i might have to do it again with screwball. His copy and paste spamming is beyond ridiculous.

How is Kobe not elite ball handler and shooter please tell me?

[eliteballer]

James...Harden.

[bigkingsfan]

Flat out outrageous you'd mention Kyrie but not Stockton.
Stockton is the ultimate selective shooter. Even Chris Paul took over more often.

[tontoz]

How is Kobe not elite ball handler and shooter please tell me?


Because he is the all time leader in missed shots. Career 32.9% from 3.

Ditto McGrady. Taking a lot of shots doesn't make someone a great shooter.

As far as Stockton goes i would say tier 2 or maybe 3. He was the opposite of Kobe. He had very good shot selection which made him look like a better shooter than he really was. I watched him a lot an never really thought of him as a great shooter.

Kobe had bad shot selection. If his shot selection was just average i think he would be to 35-37% from 3 and over 50% on 2s.

Harden tier 2. His 3 pt % of 36.5% is a bit weak to be considered elite but i will give him extra points for volume. 85.5% from the foul line also borderline.

[eliteballer]

Stockton is the ultimate selective shooter. Even Chris Paul took over more often.

Being a selective shooter is part of being a good shooter..

[Kblaze8855]

Much as I love Stockton he wasn

[bigkingsfan]

Being a selective shooter is part of being a good shooter.
That would make Kobe a terrible shooter.

[tontoz]

That would make Kobe a terrible shooter.






https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/owned.jpg (http://s56.photobucket.com/user/tontoz/media/owned.jpg.html)