Why did MJ need so much help...

[Objectivity]

You have to look far and wide for someone who

[Objectivity]

I didn

[ballinhun8]

Cool post friend.


Keep up the hard working, original content.

[Objectivity]

Cool post friend.


Keep up the hard working, original content.

The truth about MJ has been buried under the rug for too long...

[LostCause]

Rodman was great in 96

Folks were calling for him to be traded after that though, and he was benched quite often

[Phoenix]

Scottie Pippen is at least top 25 ever and was a legit MVP candidate.

List does not necessarily = rankings order in all instances

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Shaq
Lebron
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Hakeem
West
Oscar
Dr.J
M.Malone
K.Malone
Barkley
KG
Dirk
Admiral
Isiah
Wade
Durant
Steph
Baylor

That's 25. Who you taking off to replace with Pippen?

[Leviathon1121]

Jordan won two titles without a single all-star, all that help though.

[bullettooth]

Cope thread.

[baudkarma]

Put Kobe on those Bulls teams and we're talking about how Scottie Pippen won those six rings.

[Objectivity]

Jordan won two titles without a single all-star, all that help though.
Yeah right...how many did he win without pippen?

You

[red1]

because he was a sociopath.



I think kobe could've won 5 or 6 rings too going up the original trash bros.

[tontoz]

Pippen was a weak shooter from everywhere outside 3 feet. For his career he averaged 16/6 with a TS of 53.6%.:sleeping

Horace Grant for his career averaged 11/8 with a TS of 54% and made 1 All-Star game. :sleeping

[Objectivity]

Pippen was a weak shooter from everywhere outside 3 feet. For his career he averaged 16/6 with a TS of 53.6%.:sleeping

Horace Grant for his career averaged 11/8 with a TS of 54% and made 1 All-Star game. :sleeping

Sure, Pippen was a scrub :lol :roll:

[FKAri]

The better question would be: Why did Pippen need so LITTLE help?

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Dennis Rodman etc


Horace Grant and Kukoc/Rodman were not on the same team

It was Pippen/Grant for the first 3-peat...... and Pippen/Rodman for the 2nd

That's isn't a lot of help.. Grant was a role player and Rodman didn't even start in the 98' playoffs (and 4/8 in 97' playoffs)

And Kukoc equals 6th man of the year JR Smith - he was a 12 ppg role player and every team has someone comparable - the only reason you mention kukoc is because you can't find enough stars on the roster.... So you start mentioning role players that you wouldn't do for anyone else... Only to bring down MJ... #goathater

Only in 96' did the Bulls have a personnel advantage on opponents (when rodman was still playing like a star).. but it was a only a defense and hustle advantage - they were still playing 4 on 5 offensively with Rodman, and needed goat teamwork to have a goat offense (and genius from MJ to fit his goat scoring into a system)





You have to look far and wide for someone who’s had as much help, at least before this superstar collusion era we live in.


Worthy crushed Pippen in the 91' Finals (led Lakers in scoring), and was all-nba that year while Pippen wasn't even an all-star.. So Magic had a comparable sidekick/HOF to Pippen

After the MJ/Magic and Pippen/Worthy matchups, the Lakers had two 17/10 bigs in those Finals (Vlade, Perkins) that were better than anyone the bulls had... Plus 90' all star AC Green and Elden Campbell.. that's a lot more help than the Bulls had

And could the Bulls make the Finals with MJ averaging 18 ppg as 3rd option in the first 3 rounds??... Because that's what Drexler did in 1990 when his stacked blazers made the Finals - Drexler had 3 all-star teammates (porter/duckworth/williams) and were simply way more stacked than Pippen plus role players Grant/Paxson.. it's not even close

And it's common knowledge that the 93' Suns were the most stacked team in the league...





You have to look far and wide for someone who’s had as much help


Don't you wonder why MJ needed the #1 all-time PPG and efficiency rating (PER) if he had the most help???

That makes no sense.. he averaged 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals, which is more than anyone else averaged for 3 rings.. your argument makes no sense and is refuted by the goat stats that MJ needed to win

Finally, only MJ could've won with the Bulls because the Bulls needed scoring champion production from the #1 option - they won all 6 rings with MJ as scoring champ - no one ever won a ring as scoring champ except MJ 6 times.. (edit: Kareem and Shaq did it once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00').. so Kobe couldn't win with those Bulls because he either couldn't score enough (not scoring champ), or couldn't fit that scoring into a championship system... Ditto everyone else in history
.

[Leviathon1121]

[QUOTE=Objectivity]Yeah right...how many did he win without pippen?

You

[Objectivity]

Horace Grant and Kukoc/Rodman were not on the same team

It was Pippen/Grant for the first 3-peat...... and Pippen/Rodman for the 2nd

That's isn't a lot of help.. Grant was a role player and Rodman didn't even start in the 98' playoffs (and 4/8 in 97' playoffs)

And Kukoc equals 6th man of the year JR Smith - he was a 12 ppg role player and every team has someone comparable - the only reason you mention kukoc is because you can't find enough stars on the roster.... So you start mentioning role players that you wouldn't do for anyone else... Only to bring down MJ... #goathater

Only in 96' did the Bulls have a personnel advantage on opponents (when rodman was still playing like a star).. but it was a only a defense and hustle advantage - they were still playing 4 on 5 offensively with Rodman, and needed goat teamwork to have a goat offense (and genius from MJ to fit his goat scoring into a system)



Worthy crushed Pippen in the 91' Finals (led Lakers in scoring), and was all-nba that year while Pippen wasn't even an all-star.. So Magic had a comparable sidekick/HOF to Pippen

After the MJ/Magic and Pippen/Worthy matchups, the Lakers had two 17/10 bigs in those Finals (Vlade, Perkins) that were better than anyone the bulls had... Plus 90' all star AC Green and Elden Campbell.. that's a lot more help than the Bulls had

And could the Bulls make the Finals with MJ averaging 18 ppg as 3rd option in the first 3 rounds??... Because that's what Drexler did in 1990 when his stacked blazers made the Finals - Drexler had 3 all-star teammates (porter/duckworth/williams) and were simply way more stacked than Pippen plus role players Grant/Paxson.. it's not even close

And it's common knowledge that the 93' Suns were the most stacked team in the league...



Don't you wonder why MJ needed the #1 all-time PPG and efficiency rating (PER) if he had the most help???

That makes no sense.. he averaged 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals, which is more than anyone else averaged for 3 rings.. your argument makes no sense and is refuted by the goat stats that MJ needed to win

Finally, only MJ could've won with the Bulls because the Bulls needed scoring champion production from the #1 option - they won all 6 rings with MJ as scoring champ - no one ever won a ring as scoring champ except MJ 6 times.. (edit: Kareem and Shaq did it once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00').. so Kobe couldn't win with those Bulls because he either couldn't score enough (not scoring champ), or couldn't fit that scoring into a championship system... Ditto everyone else in history
.

MJ is great and all but he is no Kobe, him quitting on his team to play baseball sealed it...Kobe>MJ

[tontoz]

Sure, Pippen was a scrub :lol :roll:


I just stated facts, which you obviously can't handle.

16/6 :bowdown:

[RRR3]

List does not necessarily = rankings order in all instances

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Shaq
Lebron
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Hakeem
West
Oscar
Dr.J
M.Malone
K.Malone
Barkley
KG
Dirk
Admiral
Isiah
Wade
Durant
Steph
Baylor

That's 25. Who you taking off to replace with Pippen?
Definitely think Pippen has an argument over Isiah. Depending on what you value you could argue for some of the others too.

[LostCause]

Definitely think Pippen has an argument over Isiah. Depending on what you value you could argue for some of the others too.

Nah lol

Zeke is debatable but the others there

[Phoenix]

Definitely think Pippen has an argument over Isiah. Depending on what you value you could argue for some of the others too.

What one values factors into all of these discussions about rankings. What your case for Pippen over Isiah?

[SamuraiSWISH]

The levels of desperation :oldlol:

[bigkingsfan]

What one values factors into all of these discussions about rankings. What your case for Pippen over Isiah?
More all nba teams. 7>5. More defensive teams. 10 > 0

[Phoenix]

More all nba teams. 7>5. More defensive teams. 10 > 0

I'll give you the all defense, but I have to wonder if Isiah was blackballed in the all-nba team voting after his comments about Bird. He was clearly all-nba team worthy until 90 but he never made another team after 87. Even after they added the third team in 88 they had guys like Price, Dale Ellis, and Isiah's own teammate Joe Dumars being placed on the third team in 90. Credible selections? Perhaps, not sure about over Isiah though. But that can't be proved so it is what it is. I'd also argue that Isiah's competition at the guard spots may have been a bit better than Scotties at the forward spot especially as the mid 90s rolled around. When he hit his prime he was mostly contending with an aging Barkley and Malone, Kemp and a young Grant Hill. Isiah in the late 80s was competing against MJ, Magic, Drexler, Stockton, KJ on top of the aforementioned Price, Ellis, etc.

[SpaceJam2]

Lowest production from #2 and #3 for playoff run (in order)
Top tier*
1994 Hakeem: 27.6 ppg*
2013 LeBron: 28.0 ppg *

Middle tier
2011 Dirk: 30.8 ppg
1991 Jordan: 31.0 ppg
2004 Billups: 31.3 ppg
1993 Jordan: 31.8 ppg

Bottom tier
1998 Jordan: 32.4 ppg
1996 Jordan: 32.5 ppg
2009 Kobe: 33.2 ppg
2010 Kobe: 33.3 ppg

*Only FMVPs to carry #2 and #3 combined 28.0 ppg or under

Good question

At best his was 4th best scoring load carry

[bullettooth]

Lowest production from #2 and #3 for playoff run (in order)
Top tier*
1994 Hakeem: 27.6 ppg*
2013 LeBron: 28.0 ppg *

Middle tier
2011 Dirk: 30.8 ppg
1991 Jordan: 31.0 ppg
2004 Billups: 31.3 ppg
1993 Jordan: 31.8 ppg

Bottom tier
1998 Jordan: 32.4 ppg
1996 Jordan: 32.5 ppg
2009 Kobe: 33.2 ppg
2010 Kobe: 33.3 ppg

*Only FMVPs to carry #2 and #3 combined 28.0 ppg or under

Good question

At best his was 4th best scoring load carry

Omg! stats!

[SpaceJam2]

Omg! stats!

Annnd?

[TheMan]

You have to look far and wide for someone who’s had as much help, at least before this superstar collusion era we live in.

Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Dennis Rodman etc


Scottie Pippen is at least top 25 ever and was a legit MVP candidate...he is like the GOAT second option and a guy that can lock up the opposing team’s best player...MJ spent his entire career with this guy...

The fact that this fellow has 6 rings with this much help isn’t something special.


Anyway... my point is... you replace MJ with Kobe and you win at least 6 rings, probably more because Kobe wouldn’t quit on his team...
Yeah, MJ's Bulls were so stacked that outside of Pippen, between Grant, Kukoc, and Rodman, they have a grand total of 1 All Star appearance between these "superstars" :rolleyes:

Outside of Pippen, MJ's teammates were very good role players. This whole Bulls were stacked with All Stars BS needs to stop because it's simply not true. The Bulls were a well coached team led by the GOAT, a top 25-30 sidekick and a collection of very good role players who fulfilled roles to a tee. They played well within a system and played great team defense (especially the 96-98 version).

Stacked like the Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics, Bad Boys Pistons, early 80s Sixers? No

[Leviathon1121]

Yeah, MJ's Bulls were so stacked that outside of Pippen, between Grant, Kukoc, and Rodman, they have a grand total of 1 All Star appearance between these "superstars" :rolleyes:

Outside of Pippen, MJ's teammates were very good role players. This whole Bulls were stacked with All Stars BS needs to stop because it's simply not true. The Bulls were a well coached team led by the GOAT, a top 25-30 sidekick and a collection of very good role players who fulfilled roles to a tee. They played well within a system and played great team defense (especially the 96-98 version).

Stacked like the Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics, Bad Boys Pistons, early 80s Sixers? No
Shhhhhh...this isn

[TheMan]

Yeah right...how many did he win without pippen?

You’re trolling its the same thing that LeBron stans do when they say he won without a single all star in 2016 :cheers:

Bulls had like 55 wins without him in ‘94 and almost made the finals...


1-9
Almost made the Finals? You dimwit, they didn't even make the Conference Finals :oldlol: Hey, Houston had a great season this year, they almost made the Finals!

Idiot

[And1AllDay]

Lowest production from #2 and #3 for playoff run (in order)
Top tier*
1994 Hakeem: 27.6 ppg*
2013 LeBron: 28.0 ppg *

Middle tier
2011 Dirk: 30.8 ppg
1991 Jordan: 31.0 ppg
2004 Billups: 31.3 ppg
1993 Jordan: 31.8 ppg

Bottom tier
1998 Jordan: 32.4 ppg
1996 Jordan: 32.5 ppg
2009 Kobe: 33.2 ppg
2010 Kobe: 33.3 ppg

*Only FMVPs to carry #2 and #3 combined 28.0 ppg or under

Good question

At best his was 4th best scoring load carry

anyone? :eek:

[3ball]

anyone? :eek:
Lebron only needed to average 22 ppg to win the ECF

So who cares about stats needed to win a weak East

The worst help that Lebron won a Finals with was Wade's 20/5/5 on 48% (peak Pippen numbers) in the 2013 Finals

And his cast saved him from an 0-3 deficit while he averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games.. it was 2011 all over again, but Ray saved him this time.



anyone? :eek:
PPG, APG, FG% and GameScore in Eastern Conference Playoffs


2007 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2007/#14-29-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 25.8.. 8.3.. 43.4%.. 22.2 gmsc
2011 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2011/#72-86-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 26.0.. 5.5.. 46.0%.. 21.7 gmsc
2012 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2012/#93-110-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 30.8.. 5.1.. 50.8%.. 24.3 gmsc
2013 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2013/#116-131-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 26.2.. 6.4.. 51.4%.. 21.9 gmsc
2014 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2014/#139-153-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 27.1.. 5.0.. 56.2%.. 22.7 gmsc
2015 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2015/#159-172-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 27.6.. 8.3.. 42.8%.. 20.6 gmsc
2016 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2016/#179-192-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 24.6.. 7.0.. 54.6%.. 21.8 gmsc

1991 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1991/#54-65-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 31.1.. 7.1.. 51.0%.. 26.6 gmsc
1992 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1992/#71-86-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 34.0.. 5.5.. 48.9%.. 24.8 gmsc
1993 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1993/#93-105-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 32.8.. 5.8.. 45.6%.. 24.6 gmsc
1996 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996/#122-133-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 32.3.. 4.1.. 47.9%.. 23.7 gmsc
1997 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1997/#140-152-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 30.5.. 4.2.. 45.6%.. 21.7 gmsc
1998 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1998/#159-173-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 31.9.. 4.0.. 47.8%.. 22.5 gmsc



MJ with higher gamescores and PPG... and nearly the same assists with greater TEAM assists/winning..

MJ simply had to do more

[Real14]

Because he want the easy way out, thank God Lebron was more competitive.

[3ball]

Because he want the easy way out, thank God Lebron was more competitive.
What's the tougher path:

1) developing favorite status over several years

2) landing on 2 different teams favored to win it all in Year 1

[egokiller]

Why did MJ do more than Lebron with less? Why did he not allow others to win FMVP during his finals appearances unlike lebron who allowed it 6 times? :eek:

Yikes!

[Real14]

What's the tougher path:

1) developing favorite status over several years

2) landing on 2 different teams favored to win it all in Year 1
Lebron's teams weren't stacked tho, just a few good players.

[Real14]

Why did MJ do more than Lebron with less? Why did he not allow others to win FMVP during his finals appearances unlike lebron who allowed it 6 times? :eek:

Yikes!
Jordan had easy competition tho in the finals including a 6 foot and a 1/2 point guard named Payton.

[3ball]

Lebron's teams weren't stacked tho, just a few good players.
The Heat had 4 HOF (lebron, wade, bosh, allen)

plus battier, birdman, haslem, mike miller, and other solid role players.




Lebron's teams weren't stacked tho, just a few good players.
in 2010, Wade was #2 in PER, VORP, BPM, and WS/48

so he was the #2 player in the league (the best help possible)… it's like MJ teaming up with Magic or Larry in the 80's

so how did your goat get the best help possible, but proceed to be an underdog or lose for 6 of the next 7 years?..

goat + best help possible = dominant winning/favorite status, not perennial loser/underdog...

Lebron teaming up with Wade/Bosh is like MJ teaming up with Magic/McHale

[egokiller]

Jordan had easy competition tho in the finals including a 6 foot and a 1/2 point guard named Payton.

I though he was 6

[Rico2016]

Lebron's teams weren't stacked tho, just a few good players.


Pippen was the Bulls primary defender, playmaker, and rebounder. It's no surprise he did not ALSO average 25-30. Leading your team as the primary anchor on defense, primary playmaker, primary rebounder, AND primary scorer? Pippen had 3 of 4 but only 1 man has ever done them all and his name is LeBron James.

[3ball]

Pippen was the Bulls primary defender



DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender AT THE TIME, and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the NBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s)) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)

Pippen was never the primary defender on the opponent's best scorer - that was MJ's job, aka Drexler, Miller, Payton, Magic, Tim Hardaway and more.

the reason for the revisionist history is simple: when new fans (including media) first heard about MJ's 6 rings, they looked up his roster and didn't see the star-laden cast they expected, or great stats from a sidekick.... so they concluded that Pippen's defense offset the lack of star power or good offensive stats - but this is simply ignorance about what was actually happening at the time

the reality is that the 1st three-peat Bulls were only ranked 7th defensively, so many guys had better defensive help than MJ, including Clyde's Blazers and many of Lebron's teams






Pippen was the primary playmaker and rebounder.


Grant or Rodman were the rebounders and MJ averaged more apg in 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while assisting on the most Bulls field goals for both 3-peats (see the stats below)





primary playmaker


Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced





It's no surprise he did not ALSO average 25-30.


Pippen's max capacity is 22.0 ppg and 5.6 apg as the #1 option in 1994, which was less production than his high alongside MJ (21.0 and 7.0 apg)

So he wasn't capable of 25+ ppg.. that's preposterous - the guy had zero moves and couldn't shoot worth a lick from any

[RealSkipBayless]

Lebron's teams were so stacked with help that the second he left they all collapsed. :lol

[egokiller]

Lebron's teams were so stacked with help that the second he left they all collapsed. :lol

Imagine being so cancerous that even stacked teams could no longer be effective after he left. Some cancers just can

[Real14]

Lebron's teams were so stacked with help that the second he left they all collapsed. :lol
Exactly. Cavs missed playoffs in 2011 and 2019, while Heat missed playoffs in 2015.

[And1AllDay]

Lebron's teams were so stacked with help that the second he left they all collapsed. :lol


kyrie
bosh
love
wade

$tacked :oldlol:

flourishing without the king after he left amirite :oldlol:

[3ball]

Lebron's teams were so stacked with help that the second he left they all collapsed. :lol
Actually, Lebron's team collapses WHILE HE'S STILL THERE (2010, 2014, 2018)

So of course him leaving is the knockout blow

But the same thing happens with any ball-dominator team when they lose their ball-dominator - see Nash and CP3 teams in 12' and 13'..

these ball-dominators have good on/off stats but they don't give their team a championship ceiling, and therefore don't add the most to championship odds.. the style has only won by team-hopping for extra talent to offset the suboptimal style




Lebron's teams were so stacked with help that the second he left they all collapsed. :lol

^^^ that's some good hyperbole, but let's consider the facts:


- the 15' Heat missed the playoffs by 1/2 game due to Wade/Bosh missing 40 games

- the 11' Cavs lost half their team - Mo/Shaq/Varejao/Delonte/Zydrunas scored 52 ppg, which had more impact than losing Lebron's 30 ppg

- the 19' Cavs lost Kyrie and Lebron in back-to-back years, so that's on Lebron for running Kyrie out of town.

[RealSkipBayless]

Actually, Lebron's team collapses WHILE HE'S STILL THERE (2010, 2014, 2018)

So of course him leaving is the knockout blow

But the same thing happens with any ball-dominator team when they lose their ball-dominator - see Nash and CP3 teams in 12' and 13'..

these ball-dominators have good on/off stats but they don't give their team a championship ceiling, and therefore don't add the most to championship odds.. the style has only won by team-hopping for extra talent to offset the suboptimal style




^^^ that's some good hyperbole, but let's consider the facts:


- the 15' Heat missed the playoffs by 1/2 game due to Wade/Bosh missing 40 games

- the 11' Cavs lost half their team - Mo/Shaq/Varejao/Delonte/Zydrunas scored 52 ppg, which had more impact than losing Lebron's 30 ppg

- the 19' Cavs lost Kyrie and Lebron in back-to-back years, so that's on Lebron for running Kyrie out of town.
What player in place of Lebron wins the title in 18?

[3ball]

What player in place of Lebron wins the title in 18?
Not sure, but many guys make those Finals, and they wouldn't be taken 7 games by any of those weak East teams like Lebron was

Lebron is just lucky that Kyrie was hurt that year...

Kyrie probably outplays Curry in the Finals for a 3rd time in 2018, and wins his 2nd chip.. Lebron is just a lucky fool

[1987_Lakers]

FYI - Doncic's rookie stats destroy Lebron's

Doncic has all-nba upside while kukoc never did

Kukoc had a 0.07 WS/48 as #1 option in 99'

Kukoc wasn't all-star caliber.. odom was about the same offensively and a far better defender

Nice reach tho

:roll:

[Goalgoalabc]

what kind of help?