Who won the most with the least help?

[LBJFTW]

Other than MJ winning with no all-stars twice, is Hakeem the next in line for winning it all with the least help?

[Objectivity]

:kobe:


Meltdown :lol

[FKAri]

Pippen. 6 rings with no one notable on any of his rosters except maybe Rodman in 96.

[Objectivity]

Pippen. 6 rings with no one notable on any of his rosters except maybe Rodman in 96.

:lebronamazed:

[FireDavidKahn]

Bulls + Jordan = championship
Bulls without Jordan = 55 wins

Cavs + LeBron = championship
Cavs without LeBron = 19 wins

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Other than MJ winning with no all-stars twice, is Hakeem the next in line for winning it all with the least help?
Only MJ/Kobe won multiple rings with 1 all-star teammate, except Shaq (who had Kobe), and Hakeem (when MJ was out of the league)

So the Jordan "fornat" and skillset wins rings with the least help - we have 8 rings that were won with 1 all-star teammate as of proof... :confusedshrug:

[LBJFTW]

Bulls + Jordan = championship
Bulls without Jordan = 55 wins

Cavs + LeBron = championship
Cavs without LeBron = 19 wins

:confusedshrug:

That 55 win team was an entirely differnent team.

[3ball]

Cavs + LeBron = championship
Cavs without LeBron = 19 wins


Lebron's teammates play bad with or without him because he reduces everyone to spot-up shooters - weak teams let 1 guy dribble most of the time, so the team collapses without that guy.. Otoh, dynasty teams play great basketball with or without their star because they move the ball instead of having 1 guy dribble it all the time.. great teams develop a great way to play basketball, which exists with or without the star

Otoh, similar to other ball-dominators like Westbrook and Harden, lebron's teams play bad basketball.... people simply ignored it because he had super-teams that were winning the LEast every year..






Bulls + Jordan = championship
Bulls without Jordan = 55 wins


the bulls won 47 games and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without mj's 33/8/8 in 1989.. that same lottery cast from 89' three-peated from 91-93' - so the 94' Bulls were a lottery cast that had developed the know-how, teamwork and goat brand required of all dynasties.. they managed off teamwork, not talent.
.

[Manny98]

LeBron won in 2013 with 15ppg Wade and 12ppg Bosh

No one else won with this low scoring help

[And1AllDay]

Pippen elevated Mike Jordan from 96 to 98 after MJ suffered a second round loss

So probably Pippen. especially since he lost Pete Myers after 94 and had to replace him with Mike Jordan.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron in 2013 and of course 2016 (no all stars, beat 73 win team, lead both teams in all major categories).

[Objectivity]

LeBron won in 2013 with 15ppg Wade and 12ppg Bosh

No one else won with this low scoring help

I think youre forgeting someone...

[Manny98]

I think youre forgeting someone...
No player won with as low scoring second and third options as LeBron did in 2013 that is a fact

Ray Allen hit one shot whoopee!

How many did he score in game 7 of the finals?

I rest my case

[Objectivity]

No player won with as low scoring second and third options as LeBron did in 2013 that is a fact

Ray Allen hit one shot whoopee!

How many did he score in game 7 of the finals?

I rest my case

How far do they go in 2013 if not for Ray Allen?

[And1AllDay]

LeBron won in 2013 with 15ppg Wade and 12ppg Bosh

No one else won with this low scoring help

Uh oh :eek:

[Manny98]

How far do they go in 2013 if not for Ray Allen?
Ray Allen 10ppg is easily replaceable so the Heat still win

[3ball]

No player won with as low scoring second and third options as LeBron did in 2013 that is a fact

Ray Allen hit one shot whoopee!

How many did he score in game 7 of the finals?

I rest my case
Wade averaged 20/4/5 on 48% in the 2013 Finals, which was pretty much Pippen's standard

Otoh, Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games.... And his 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games, thus needing Ray to force game 7

He was also a net negative for the entire series

Lebron was actually horrible in the 2013 Finals

[Objectivity]

Wade averaged 20/5/5 in the 2013 Finals, which was Pippen's standard

Otoh, Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games.... And his 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games, thus needing Ray to force game 7

He was also a net negative for the entire series

Lebron was actually horrible in the 2013 Finals

:yaohappy:



GOT HIS ASS


:hammertime: :hammertime:

[Sakkreth]

Hakeem
Dirk
LeBron 2016

[ArbitraryWater]

relative to opposition, '16 Bron?

Love injured, so he basically beat 3-all stars with 1 and no 6th man level beyond that ala Iggy?

[FKAri]

relative to opposition, '16 Bron?

Love injured, so he basically beat 3-all stars with 1 and no 6th man level beyond that ala Iggy?
Kyrie wasn't an all-star :D


LeGOAT

:hammertime:

[Objectivity]

Hakeem
Dirk
LeBron 2016


How did he even make the finals with so little help in 2016 :biggums:

THE GOAT STANDARD :rockon:

[Objectivity]

Kyrie wasn't an all-star :D


LeGOAT

:hammertime:

:djparty

[ArbitraryWater]

Kyrie wasn't an all-star :D


LeGOAT

:hammertime:

but he kinda was, you know

lets give him that

[Manny98]

Wade averaged 20/4/5 on 48% in the 2013 Finals, which was pretty much Pippen's standard

Otoh, Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games.... And his 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games, thus needing Ray to force game 7

He was also a net negative for the entire series

Lebron was actually horrible in the 2013 Finals
Ok so Wade put up Pippens numbers offensively with much worse defense

And Bosh averaged 11ppg and scored 0 points in game 7

Even if you want to cherrypick one series LeBron still won with less help than anyone in 2013 :applause:

[tpols]

hakeems lack of help is extremely overstated... he beat a knicks team that featured ewing and john starks, which was no more talented than his own team in '94.

And then in '95 he had a prime clyde drexler... all NBA player and multiple time MVP candidate going off in those playoffs with him. But people act like he had bums.

Clyde Drexler had two top 5 MVP finishes and was better than Pau Gasol, but people NEVER mention him in that title run.

[3ball]

Kyrie wasn't an all-star :D


LeGOAT

:hammertime:
It's funny because in 1989, mj actually DID beat a 3 all-star team with zero all-stars (a bunch of young pups)

Btw, kyrie only missed the 16' all-star game due to injury, while 91' Pippen played all 82 games but missed the all-star team - so MJ legitimately won with no-all-stars in 91', whereas lebron had 2 perennial all-star teammates in 16'

[FKAri]

but he kinda was, you know

lets give him that
You can't just GIVE people all-star selections. Well, I guess they did kinda do that with MJ in 03 and they even got mad at Vince for not being on board with the rig.





LeGOAT


:hammertime:

[3ball]

Ok so Wade put up Pippens numbers offensively with much worse defense

And Bosh averaged 11ppg and scored 0 points in game 7

Even if you want to cherrypick one series LeBron still won with less help than anyone in 2013 :applause:
Lebron had 3 HOF teammates in the 13' Finals, while he averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games....

And 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games, thus needing Ray to force game 7... He was also a net negative for the entire series

So Lebron was horrible and carried by had 3 HOF teammates

[StrongLurk]

hakeems lack of help is extremely overstated... he beat a knicks team that featured ewing and john starks, which was no more talented than his own team in '94.

And then in '95 he had a prime clyde drexler... all NBA player and multiple time MVP candidate going off in those playoffs with him. But people act like he had bums.

Clyde Drexler had two top 5 MVP finishes and was better than Pau Gasol, but people NEVER mention him in that title run.

Exactly, don't forget Horry and Kenny the Jet setting 3 point records during that time frame.

Hakeem is amazing...but I always have said 94-99 was the WEAKEST time period for the modern era.

None of the champions during that time (except for 96 Bulls) would win in the 80's or post 2010's.

[Manny98]

Lebron had 3 HOF teammates in the 13' Finals, while he averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games....

And 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games, thus needing Ray to force game 7... He was also a net negative for the entire series

So Lebron was horrible and carried by had 3 HOF teammates
25/11/7 off 45% is horrible :oldlol:

LeBron had a higher game score in 2013 than MJ in 96 and 98 finals so if LeBron was horrible than so is MJ those years

[Objectivity]

Poor manny getting bodied per usual :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

hakeems lack of help is extremely overstated... he beat a knicks team that featured ewing and john starks, which was no more talented than his own team in '94.

And then in '95 he had a prime clyde drexler... all NBA player and multiple time MVP candidate going off in those playoffs with him. But people act like he had bums.

Clyde Drexler had two top 5 MVP finishes and was better than Pau Gasol, but people NEVER mention him in that title run.

its kinda like kobe's 09 help

weak historically but relative to the season the best help in the NBA, with the terrible magic team performance thrown his way.

[RRR3]

OP is Straight_Ballin/Egokiller

[LBJFTW]

OP is Straight_Ballin/Egokiller

Who are they and who are you again?

[RRR3]

They’re you. Don’t play coy.

[NBAGOAT]

hakeem in 94, duncan in 03, julius in 76.

[LostCause]

LeBron won in 2013 with 15ppg Wade and 12ppg Bosh

No one else won with this low scoring help

Minus Jordans scoring average in 96 Finals, Chicago scored 65.7ppg
Minus Brons scoring average in 13 Finals, Heat scored 71.7ppg

In 97 Finals, Chicago scored 55.5ppg minus Jordans scoring average
In 98 Finals, Chicago scored 54.5ppg minus Jordans scoring average

Chicago won the championship in each series

How dumb do you have to be to say the bolded though. You set yourself up for failure :oldlol: Classic Manny

[NBAGOAT]

Minus Jordans scoring average in 96 Finals, Chicago scored 65.7ppg
Minus Brons scoring average in 13 Finals, Heat scored 71.7ppg

In 97 Finals, Chicago scored 55.5ppg minus Jordans scoring average
In 98 Finals, Chicago scored 54.5ppg minus Jordans scoring average

Chicago won the championship in each series

How dumb do you have to be to say the bolded though. You set yourself up for failure :oldlol: Classic Manny

spurs ortg in 13 finals: 109.3 for context RS: 108.3
sonics ortg in 96 finals: 106.7 for context RS: 110.3
jazz ortg in 97 finals: 103.8 for context RS: 113.6
jazz ortg in 98 finals: 96.1 for context RS: 112.7

Clown lebron for his defense all you want, I dont think you should for his defense in 2013 however

[Manny98]

Minus Jordans scoring average in 96 Finals, Chicago scored 65.7ppg
Minus Brons scoring average in 13 Finals, Heat scored 71.7ppg

In 97 Finals, Chicago scored 55.5ppg minus Jordans scoring average
In 98 Finals, Chicago scored 54.5ppg minus Jordans scoring average

Chicago won the championship in each series

How dumb do you have to be to say the bolded though. You set yourself up for failure :oldlol: Classic Manny
Your not taking into account pace so your wrong

And i'm talking about 2nd-4th options mainly not the players on the end of the bench

MJ never had a 2nd & 3rd option as bad as Wade and Bosh in 2013 that's facts

[LostCause]

Your not taking into account pace so your wrong

Pace doesn't change the fact Jordan won with less scoring help. If you can show otherwise, go ahead


And i'm talking about 2nd-4th options mainly not the players on the end of the bench

MJ never had a 2nd & 3rd option as bad as Wade and Bosh in 2013 that's facts

You said help, period. Now you're moving the goalposts

Even still, *Pace Adjusted Wade averaged 20 in the Finals and Bosh averaged 12. That's 32ppg between them. In 96, Pippen averaged 17ppg and Kukoc 14ppg. That's 31ppg between them. In 97, Pippen 22ppg Kukoc 9ppg. That's again, 31 ppg between them. Pace adjusted

You still fail


spurs ortg in 13 finals: 109.3 for context RS: 108.3
sonics ortg in 96 finals: 106.7 for context RS: 110.3
jazz ortg in 97 finals: 103.8 for context RS: 113.6
jazz ortg in 98 finals: 96.1 for context RS: 112.7

Clown lebron for his defense all you want, I dont think you should for his defense in 2013 however

Was talking about his offense. Where'd I clown his defense?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Isiah in 1989 and 1990
one star teammate

Hakeem in 1994
no star teammate

Jordan 1991 - 1998
one star teammate and 6x rings

Kobe in 2009 and 2010
one star teammate

[ArbitraryWater]

Isiah in 1989 and 1990
one star teammate

Hakeem in 1994
no star teammate

Jordan 1991 - 1998
one star teammate and 6x rings

Kobe in 2009 and 2010
one star teammate

how many star teammates did his opponents have, on what team was the 3rd best player

[NBAGOAT]

Pace doesn't change the fact Jordan won with less scoring help. If you can show otherwise, go ahead



You said help, period. Now you're moving the goalposts

Even still, *Pace Adjusted Wade averaged 20 in the Finals and Bosh averaged 12. That's 32ppg between them. In 96, Pippen averaged 17ppg and Kukoc 14ppg. That's 31ppg between them. In 97, Pippen 22ppg Kukoc 9ppg. That's again, 31 ppg between them. Pace adjusted

You still fail



Was talking about his offense. Where'd I clown his defense?

Well help included defensive help. The only potential counter argument is to say bron has poor defensive impact compared to Jordan but I don’t think many people feel that way for 2013

Edit: I should’ve seen op said scoring help lol

[SpaceJam2]

Pete Myers :eek:

[SamuraiSWISH]

how many star teammates did his opponents have, on what team was the 3rd best player
It was usually about equal.

This was in the 80s and 90s and 00s when competition was balanced.

Before superstars were cowards and needed to collude with multiple other perennial all stars to take the easy way out in order to finally win. So no cowardice Le3/9 or Katie Durant moves.

Jordan in 1993 with one star beat a team with 3x all stars
Kobe in 2010 with one star beat a team with 4x all star

Just off the top of the dome

[Dray n Klay]

It was usually about equal.

This was in the 80s and 90s and 00s when competition was balanced.

Before superstars were cowards and needed to collude with multiple other perennial all stars to take the easy way out in order to finally win. So no cowardice Le3/9 or Katie Durant moves.

Jordan in 1993 with one star beat a team with 3x all stars
Kobe in 2010 with one star beat a team with 4x all star

Just off the top of the dome

LeBron with 0 allstars beat a team with 4 all stars in 2015

LeBron with 0 allstars beat a team with 3 all stars in 2016

:confusedshrug:

[bullettooth]

LeBron with 0 allstars beat a team with 3 all stars in 2016


Adam Silver and the Refs were the real MVPs of those finals.