Is Giannis Antetokounmpo the most overrated "superstar" since Michael Jordan?

[Smoke117]

Discuss. :confusedshrug:

[Knicksfever2010]

Discuss. :confusedshrug:

Dude with his high dribble is USELESS when he has to go against a good defender. Until he can make a free throw or a perimeter shot, he will never be "great"

[Big164]

Yeah jordan was a loser.

[imdaman99]

Didn't he smoke your Celtics?

[sportjames23]

Discuss. :confusedshrug:

Slumming with the Bron incels has reduced you to this. Pathetic. Just pathetic. :facepalm

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Didn't he smoke your Celtics?

he had a Tatum and Hayward avy:roll: :roll: :roll:

[SamuraiSWISH]

ISH’s resident psychotic drunk melting down hard again

[Kblaze8855]

Hes been getting better the last 6 years in a row and hes only 24. Not 24 about to be 25. Hes not even halfway through 24. Hes played 4 positions the last 3-4 years, is one of the best defenders in the league, put up 26/13/5 in the playoffs despite some people wild double teaming and help D literally forming walls behind his man and is being laughed at because he had the 28th team eliminated in a 30 team league....

Harden with like 400 threes, Lillard with 3 30 footers a game, Paul George of the unlimited range, and Kyrie already home watching this game...but people making it out like hes too unskilled to have playoff success.

What happened is simple....

29 teams must lose. His team lost. Its fine. ITs entirely possible hes the MVP but not even in his prime. How many hard workers like him dont improve after 24?

Hes got like 7 years he can lose before he catches the age guys like Dirk, Hakeem, Pierce and KG won. KD at 24 had 3 more seasons to lose in OKC.....has played 3 years on the Warriors...and is still in his prime.

Hes a 24 year old MVP. Hes really just getting started. Hes the age Bird was in his second season. This guy should be around a long long long time.

[LeCola]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/gta-myths/images/5/5a/Big_Smoke_SA.png

[MJistheGOAT]

MJ living rent free in your mind.

Giannis got a little overrated this year but not near "the most" as you said.

[bluechox2]

Product of nba manufacturing

[Objectivity]

I am inclined to suggest LeWho set a whole new standard of overratedness :(

[Jasper]

If every person had his work ethic , we would all be superstars.

Final game of the playoffs he hit I think 4 3 pointers....

Once he gets Timmys bank shot and Bob Laniers corner Lane jumper / no one will stop him.

This series , he was so used to crashing the lane , he would retreat when press came / not pass out... .another lesson for the Giannis.

[Wally450]

Giannis isn't a superstar yet IMO.

[Manny98]

You don't get more overrated than Allen Iverson

[TheMan]

Discuss. :confusedshrug:
Ha, any other respectable hoops forum and you'd get banned for posting 1/4 of the retarded shit that gets posted here on the regular :oldlol:

[TheCorporation]

Easily

Both terrible 3 point shooters that struggle in the early rounds of the playoffs.

Maybe if Giannis gets his Pippen + Grant + Rodman + Kukoc he will be ok

[Euroleague]

Let's be honest here, and cut all the BS excuses. Giannis is clearly the worst player to ever be the NBA MVP. Derrick Rose looked like he would forever hold that distinction, but thanks to Giannis winning it, he no longer is the worst all time player to win an MVP award.

The NBA is about to give its league MVP award to a player that can't dribble, can't shoot, has a low basketball IQ, has no feel for the game, is a bad decision maker, and that has only two offensive scoring moves in his skill set......

which are travel by taking steps and palming the ball, via either a wrongly executed Euro step, or an often out of control spin move, then either laying it up or dunking it...........

and that relies on refs and the extremely soft NBA rules to make him look good.

I never thought a player that is worse than Derrick Rose could get the NBA's season MVP award, but it has now happened.

[FKAri]

Nice of you to emerge from that Arkansan cave you've been locked in for years while plotting how to get back at Giannis for doing your boy Spanoulis dirty.

[SouBeachTalents]

Giannis > Wes Unseld

[90sgoat]

Agree OP:cheers:

Truth be told, regular season MVP has lost its meaning now with so many horrible MVPs like Westbrook, Harden and Lebron.

[Im so nba'd out]

Giannis would literally be seen as a God King in Europe.He would average prime Wilt numbers in the Euroleague vs those vanilla midgets

[Shogon]

Agree OP:cheers:

Truth be told, regular season MVP has lost its meaning now with so many horrible MVPs like Westbrook, Harden and Lebron.

MVP lost all meaning far, far before anyone of those guys were even born.

It's the highest individual award in the sport and since its inception has often times not gone to the highest individual. It's a stupid award and it almost always has been.

[Euroleague]

Giannis would literally be seen as a God King in Europe.He would average prime Wilt numbers in the Euroleague vs those vanilla midgets

He averaged 10 points a game in his career with the Greek national team, playing in lower levels than EuroLeague.

He is worse under FIBA rules, much worse.

[yeaaaman]

He averaged 10 points a game in his career with the Greek national team, playing in lower levels than EuroLeague.

He is worse under FIBA rules, much worse.

Newsflash: nobody cares

[ImKobe]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/949f42b13894d3865614b1e08d7177db/tenor.gif

[Proctor]

Derrick Rose was never a travesty MVP. But OP is right about Giannis.

[tpols]

he is the perfect example of nba marketing making a player greater than he seems...

like imagine this dude under all different types of rule sets, ones where for instance no 3 seconds in the lane which is a blatant money grab rule to make athletic players appear good at basketball..

analyze his skillset in a vacuum, hes not even really good at basketball.

hes an insane athlete that has all the rules catered to him to allow him to flourish, force additional help, and give his teammates an easier time, thus creating a ripple effect where he and his team artificially succeed.

its insane that so many USA fans cant look at skills and see this...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

he is the perfect example of nba marketing making a player greater than he seems...

like imagine this dude under all different types of rule sets, ones where for instance no 3 seconds in the lane which is a blatant money grab rule to make athletic players appear good at basketball..

analyze his skillset in a vacuum, hes not even really good at basketball.

hes an insane athlete that has all the rules catered to him to allow him to flourish, force additional help, and give his teammates an easier time, thus creating a ripple effect where he and his team artificially succeed.

its insane that so many USA fans cant look at skills and see this...

Giannis makes Lebron look fluid and graceful.

That's how limited dude is on offense. Its dribble, attack and/or kick out. Sans the fluke three-pointers, there's no middle ground.

Giannis is a likeable player with a yearning to improve. He'll come back better.

[Phoenix]

Hyperbolic in my book, but this series did make it painfully obvious that Giannis isn't going to break through unless he has a jump-shot good enough to keep the defense honest. Toronto pretty much gave the league the blueprint on how to neutralize him, at least in a playoff setting if you have the personnel.

[JohnMax]

Steve Nash (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html)

0/18 regular seasons scoring 20+ ppg
2/12 playoffs scoring 20+ ppg

Giannis Antetokounmpo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html)

3/6 regular seasons scoring 20+ ppg
3/4 playoffs scoring 20+ ppg

[egokiller]

MVP lost all meaning far, far before anyone of those guys were even born.

It's the highest individual award in the sport and since its inception has often times not gone to the highest individual. It's a stupid award and it almost always has been.

Thank you. This will be used whenever I hear some fakkit mention lebron's regular season MVPs. :cheers:

[JohnMax]

Steve Nash (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html)

0/18 regular seasons scoring 20+ ppg
2/12 playoffs scoring 20+ ppg

Giannis Antetokounmpo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html)

3/6 regular seasons scoring 20+ ppg
3/4 playoffs scoring 20+ ppg

Derrick Rose (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rosede01.html) before ACL injury

3/4 regular seasons scoring 20+ ppg
3/4 playoffs scoring 20+ ppg

[JohnMax]

Conclusion:

Steve Nash is the worst MVP in modern NBA history

[SamuraiSWISH]

Derrick Rose is FAR from the worst MVP ever.

And even broke jumper, traveling ass Giannis isn

[Overdrive]

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Derrick Rose is FAR from the worst MVP ever.

And even broke jumper, traveling ass Giannis isn

[Kblaze8855]

The idea that you can be bad at basketball and be the mvp of the nba isn’t even rational enough to be called a joke. Just some bullshit from contrarians on the internet trying to sound smart while saying something stupid. If the good shooting scrubs in the d league were great at basketball because of it they would be the ones in Giannis place. But they aren’t because many of the “skills” you hold so dear don’t matter when everyone is way more athletic than you.

Basketball is a physical sport where being a god tier athlete simply can make you better than “skilled” people with wet jumpers and handles.

Might as well say Bo Jackson can’t play football because he was mostly strength and straight line speed.

Well guess what? Running at the speed of a Buick while 240 pounds can get you yards on a toss. Those yards make you effective....therefore good.

10 thousand players in the nba have accomplished less than Giannis has at 24. Among them massively “skilled” players who couldn’t impact a game. If he retired today he has won more in the regular season and playoffs than a lot more polished people several of them playing with more talent.

This notion that guys like Giannis aren’t even good is just jealousy and delusion.

They aren’t good at basketball....but every coach and gm would give them 200 million dollars....

Go get your jumper real wet. Do 8 hours of ball handling drills a day. Get your handles on point.

You still won’t be as good as Giannis because basketball benefits from athletic ability. You can feel you’re “ better” you’re still sitting t home while he makes 30 million because you in fact....suck. He is in fact...good.

Why he’s good doesn’t change the facts.

If he weren’t good it wouldn’t take world class defenders and mounds of help defense to hold him to 23/14/6 while he gets 3 blocks a night and everyone agrees he didn’t play that well.

What does it matter how “skilled” you are when an off series by him is better than most nba players could ever play?

All those skills in a body that can’t apply them on this level don’t mean shit.

That’s why guys are shooting 90% from the ft line playing in Poland.

They aren’t GOOD enough because what you think skills are don’t matter as much as being effective. And the only evidence you have of Giannis not being effective is him losing in the conference finals to a team 2 games worse than his when he’s 24. If that makes you ineffective you don’t want the list of other ineffective people. It’s gonna have 75 “skilled” hall of famers at least.

Doesn’t matter how good your bum ass jumper gets you aren’t making the nba because you aren’t good enough. Skilled and good are not the same thing no matter how much you wish it were.

Go shoot that pretty ass jumper....with a ball of paper into the trash. Where 99.9% of the people better at it than Giannis belong....because their skills don’t matter in the end.

Someone less skilled than you being able to block all your shots and put his nuts on your neck while he dunks over you 10 times in a row? He’s better at basketball than you. That’s why you watch him and he plays. Your handles don’t matter when you can’t go by him and your jumper doesn’t matter when he catches your shot in mid air on the way up.

Skills don’t make you good. Just give you something to take solace in while getting slaughtered.

Lamar Odom has more “skills” than Giannis. Right now. Wherever he is smoking crack he’s more skilled than Giannis. Great. He sucks though because his body won’t let him do what Giannis can. And even in his prime it wouldn’t have.

So what are we even talking about? Go on and trade him for Tyreke Evans(even before the suspension). See what good Tyrekes crazy handles and good outside shot do when you lose 20 more games and you get fired for thinking more skills make a player better.

Wish some of you dudes had GM positions early 2000s. Dumbasses might actually take the call if the Bulls offered Brad Miller for Shaq....

[RRR3]

Giannis makes Lebron look fluid and graceful.

That's how limited dude is on offense. Its dribble, attack and/or kick out. Sans the fluke three-pointers, there's no middle ground.

Giannis is a likeable player with a yearning to improve. He'll come back better.
LeBron LeBron LeBron.

[RRR3]

The idea that you can be bad at basketball and be the mvp of the nba isn’t even rational enough to be called a joke. Just some bullshit from contrarians on the internet trying to sound smart while saying something stupid. If the good shooting scrubs in the d league were great at basketball because of it they would be the ones in Giannis place. But they aren’t because many of the “skills” you hold so dear don’t matter when everyone is way more athletic than you.

Basketball is a physical sport where being a god tier athlete simply can make you better than “skilled” people with wet jumpers and handles.

Might as well say Bo Jackson can’t play football because he was mostly strength and straight line speed.

Well guess what? Running at the speed of a Buick while 240 pounds can get you yards on a toss. Those yards make you effective....therefore good.

10 thousand players in the nba have accomplished less than Giannis has at 24. Among them massively “skilled” players who couldn’t impact a game. If he retired today he has won more in the regular season and playoffs than a lot more polished people several of them playing with more talent.

This notion that guys like Giannis aren’t even good is just jealousy and delusion.

They aren’t good at basketball....but every coach and gm would give them 200 million dollars....

Go get your jumper real wet. Do 8 hours of ball handling drills a day. Get your handles on point.

You still won’t be as good as Giannis because basketball benefits from athletic ability. You can feel you’re “ better” you’re still sitting t home while he makes 30 million because you in fact....suck. He is in fact...good.

Why he’s good doesn’t change the facts.

If he weren’t good it wouldn’t take world class defenders and mounds of help defense to hold him to 23/14/6 while he gets 3 blocks a night and everyone agrees he didn’t play that well.

What does it matter how “skilled” you are when an off series by him is better than most nba players could ever play?

All those skills in a body that can’t apply them on this level don’t mean shit.

That’s why guys are shooting 90% from the ft line playing in Poland.

They aren’t GOOD enough because what you think skills are don’t matter as much as being effective. And the only evidence you have of Giannis not being effective is him losing in the conference finals to a team 2 games worse than his when he’s 24. If that makes you ineffective you don’t want the list of other ineffective people. It’s gonna have 75 “skilled” hall of famers at least.

Doesn’t matter how good your bum ass jumper gets you aren’t making the nba because you aren’t good enough. Skilled and good are not the same thing no matter how much you wish it were.

Go shoot that pretty ass jumper....with a ball of paper into the trash. Where 99.9% of the people better at it than Giannis belong....because their skills don’t matter in the end.

Someone less skilled than you being able to block all your shots and put his nuts on your neck while he dunks over you 10 times in a row? He’s better at basketball than you. That’s why you watch him and he plays. Your handles don’t matter when you can’t go by him and your jumper doesn’t matter when he catches your shot in mid air on the way up.

Skills don’t make you good. Just give you something to take solace in while getting slaughtered.

Lamar Odom has more “skills” than Giannis. Right now. Wherever he is smoking crack he’s more skilled than Giannis. Great. He sucks though because his body won’t let him do what Giannis can. And even in his prime it wouldn’t have.

So what are we even talking about? Go on and trade him for Tyreke Evans(even before the suspension). See what good Tyrekes crazy handles and good outside shot do when you lose 20 more games and you get fired for thinking more skills make a player better.

Wish some of you dudes had GM positions early 2000s. Dumbasses might actually take the call if the Bulls offered Brad Miller for Shaq....
:applause: :applause: :applause:


Can’t wait to hear how the “skillzzzzz” crew responds to this.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Giannis makes Lebron look fluid and graceful.

That's how limited dude is on offense. Its dribble, attack and/or kick out. Sans the fluke three-pointers, there's no middle ground.

Giannis is a likeable player with a yearning to improve. He'll come back better.
Totally agree.

:cheers:

Always an all time great ISH poster

[Kblaze8855]

[QUOTE=RRR3]:applause: :applause: :applause:


Can

[SamuraiSWISH]

You should have been here back in the day. There really were people saying Shaq wasnt good at basketball...just bigger than everyone and athletic. There was a whole argument on the subject when Yao came in. We had fans acting like rookie Yao was better than Shaq because he could shoot.

Theres always this "Hes not even good!" thing about crazy athletes who rely on it to dominate.

If 5 years of:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WetRepulsiveElectriceel-size_restricted.gif



Turns you into:




https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdolescentMildHeterodontosaurus-size_restricted.gif




It was probably a good investment of your time.



Feel free to go out here with ol buddy 14 hours a day for the next 10 years:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HalfHeavyHoneycreeper-size_restricted.gif





Then come watch the games on the couch with me because you still arent good.
Bruh we are talking comparatively to other professional athletes.

His skill set is sorely lacking. Especially to other greats in the game. You’re being disingenuous af. Shaq has incredible skill and athleticism for his size.

Giannis can’t hit a jumper or free throw to save his life. He’s allowed to travel all over the god damn court.

That small unathletic white dude you show cased, it he was granted the genetic lottery physicality Giannis has right there, don’t you agree he would undoubtedly be a better basketball player? He’d obviously be a more innate cerebral player.

:oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

There are a couple thousand pro basketball players who wish they could do what he does.

And what does it matter what anyone would be if they had god tier athletic ability?

If Craig Hodges has Westbrook athletic ability hed be a beast. Does that help his team?

Dudes trying to make fantasy worlds matter with this nonsense.

When hes got 40/18 and his team wins....tell me please....does it matter if Doug Mcdermott is more "cerebral" with a wet jumper? I liked Walt Williams. The "Wizards" Crafty guy. What would all those skills count when he wouldnt get off the bench behind Giannis?

What are we trying to do here? Put the ball in the basket and win...or impress people who cant play with your handles and how loud the net swishes when you shoot?

"Skilled" guys go 15 years and dont have the team success hes getting laughed at for right now. You would figure since people consider him bad the standard would be lowered...but no. He can take a team to more wins and more playoff success by 24 than monumentally skilled guys did their entire careers and it somehow proves...his style doesnt work.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and....


Shaq has incredible skill and athleticism for his size.



You think most people 6'11'' 250 can be Giannis?

What do you think separates him from all the other 6'11'' 240-250 pound bum bigmen the last 70 years?

Hes insanely coordinated, skilled, and athletic for that size.

If he werent Steven Hunter could be Giannis. Dan Gadzuric probably out jumped Giannis. Same size. 6'11'' 240-250. Bum. If it isnt his exceptional athletic ability and skill for his build that makes the difference what is it? You think hes the only guy allowed to travel? Traveling doesnt even exist anymore.

Hes obviously an insane athlete for his size just as Shaq was. Give Dan Gadzuric the ball at 30 feet to go dominate and put up 28ppg.

When he doesnt...take a moment to think about why Giannis can and he cant...

[tontoz]

For his career Giannis shoots 74% from the foul line. That isn't great but it isn't Ben Simmons bad either.

It is interesting looking at just his foul shooting through the last two rounds. In the first game against Boston, which they lost, he was 5-10. Over the next 4 games, which they won, he was 40 -55 (72.7).

In the ECF he shot 75% from the foul line the first two games. Over the last 4 games he shot 47%.

Looks like a mental issue, not unusual for a young guy in the playoffs. In golf terms he seems to get the yips when the going gets tough.

[ralph_i_el]

Steve Nash (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html)

0/18 regular seasons scoring 20+ ppg
2/12 playoffs scoring 20+ ppg

Giannis Antetokounmpo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html)

3/6 regular seasons scoring 20+ ppg
3/4 playoffs scoring 20+ ppg


>Ppg

Low Iq post

[SamuraiSWISH]

PPG and Defense are the most important contributions in basketball individually. And then court vision / passing.

[sammichoffate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acHa25rwURw

[ralph_i_el]

You should have been here back in the day. There really were people saying Shaq wasnt good at basketball...just bigger than everyone and athletic. There was a whole argument on the subject when Yao came in. We had fans acting like rookie Yao was better than Shaq because he could shoot.

Theres always this "Hes not even good!" thing about crazy athletes who rely on it to dominate.

If 5 years of:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WetRepulsiveElectriceel-size_restricted.gif



Turns you into:




https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdolescentMildHeterodontosaurus-size_restricted.gif




It was probably a good investment of your time.



Feel free to go out here with ol buddy 14 hours a day for the next 10 years:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HalfHeavyHoneycreeper-size_restricted.gif





Then come watch the games on the couch with me because you still arent good.


Without a bunch of skilled shooters around him Giannis wouldn't look nearly as good.

He also palms the ball more often and more egregiously than anyone I have ever seen.

If you let big guys ignore the rules of dribbling, there is no point to having smaller players anymore.

[Kblaze8855]

Id say he and Durant are the worst I’ve seen with the palming. I guess you can’t easily be a 7 foot ball handler and not carry to protect it and maneuver....which is why they made 7 footers play in the post for all those years.

You have to loosen the rules for them to be what they all wanna be now.

I don’t care for it but nobody asked me.

[ralph_i_el]

Id say he and Durant are the worst I’ve seen with the palming. I guess you can’t easily be a 7 foot ball handler and not carry to protect it and maneuver....which is why they made 7 footers play in the post for all those years.

You have to loosen the rules for them to be what they all wanna be now.

I don’t care for it but nobody asked me.

Agreed.

This is the crux of what Euroleague is saying about Giannis' overseas performances. He can't play this way within the technical rules of the sport.

Durant has cleaned it up a bit over the years.

[Kblaze8855]

Watch Durant dribble in place next game. He will carry it 4-5 dribbles in a row just looking over the floor. It doesnt serve any purpose. He carries it because thats just how he dribbles.

[imdaman99]

Here come the people ready with their hot takes now that Giannis looked human in a series :rolleyes:

He will come back better, you think this guy is done? He's improved every year. And I say this as someone that doesn't root for him.

[Kblaze8855]

Here come the people ready with their hot takes now that Giannis looked human in a series :rolleyes:

He will come back better, you think this guy is done? He's improved every year. And I say this as someone that doesn't root for him.


Yea hes totally different from how he came into the league. Look at his first game:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=patwm5DXFrE


Shooting 3s....nails a stepback Dirk fadeaway.

Hes a whole different player....and a much better one despite rarely even trying some of the things in there.

He didnt roll outta bed at 18 being what he is now.

[90sgoat]

I'm not sure what Giannis does can really be called basketball.

He breaks the fundamental rules of basketball every time he touches the ball: travels and carries.

When he played in FIBA competition, he couldn't get the ball to half court. Legit. The refs called carry on him within 2 dribbles.

NBA isn't basketball.

[tpols]

I'm not sure what Giannis does can really be called basketball.

He breaks the fundamental rules of basketball every time he touches the ball: travels and carries.

When he played in FIBA competition, he couldn't get the ball to half court. Legit. The refs called carry on him within 2 dribbles.

NBA isn't basketball.


this is what im saying

before kblaze's meltdown, thinks basketball is defined only by current NBA entertainment.

the guy is a much better athlete than basketball player, but i hope he does get better.

shit theres no reason he cant develop an off ball game, 1-2 dribbles in the poast and a hook. hes already got the spin down, incorporate that off ball and in the back down instead of the head of steam charge , drive and kick harden spam.

there's nothing wrong with a fan that appreciates basketball skill and theres no rule that big guys cant be skilled.

[Kblaze8855]

He’s a lot closer to being the best basketball player in the world than best athlete but of course we start with the hyperbole and act like morons to make points on here.

It’s like realistic measured takes are just unheard of.

If it’s not extreme it’s just not worth saying I guess.

If Giannis had no offense he’d probably be a 15 rebound a game DPOY instead. By no standard is he bad at basketball.

Defense alone wouldn’t allow it. But let’s not think before we speak or anything.

Appreciating skill and acting like a guy can be the mvp of the nba while being bad at basketball are not the same thing. Everyone appreciates skills. The other take is just being dishonest or a jackass.

Worse defenders than him who also couldn't do half what he does on offense are still good players.

[Mr Know It All]

Nah Steve Nash is far and away the worst MVP ever.

In 2005 he was the third best player on his team (Stoudemire and Marion both better) and in 2006 he was the second best player and won against superior competition like Dirk (60 win team and led the league in PER), Lebron (tied for league lead in PER and led an abysmal Cavs team to 50+ wins), and Kobe (averaged 35+ppg and led an abysmal Lakers team to the playoffs).

Giannis was exposed badly, though.

[Shogon]

Only a straight up moron that literally doesn't deserve clean oxygen and water would make the claim that Giannis isn't good at basketball.

[PeroAntic]

There is no comparison between Giannis and MVP Rose. Projecting Rose's career on his MVP season is dumb.

[Kblaze8855]

Only a straight up moron that literally doesn't deserve clean oxygen and water would make the claim that Giannis isn't good at basketball.


It really is a sign people aren’t thinking.

How many players have been good just based on defense no better than he plays?

Guys acting like purists with respect for the game when idea that basketball is nothing but handles and shooting is if anything a sign of a casual fan.

Guy pulls down 12-15 rebounds blocks everything near him defends his man....oh and he puts up 27-28 ppg...but his offense is apparently so horrible that in total....he’s bad at basketball. But the great defenders and rebounders who contribute nothing but screen on offense? Still good players.

I’d like one of these people to tell me Mavs Marion was bad at basketball. He was a worse everything on offense, shot 16% from 3, was less athletic than Giannis by then and a similar defender and worse rebounder.

Bad player I guess. Helped his team win a title...but didn’t have nice handles or a jumper. Makes one awful apparently.

[Shogon]

How many players have been good just based on defense no better than he plays?

Too many to count.


Guys acting like purists with respect for the game when idea that basketball is nothing but handles and shooting is if anything a sign of a casual fan.

It's true. If these posters had any idea how many NBA players wouldn't be NBA level players without their athleticism it would probably blow their little pea brains right out of the water. Look at Kobe. Heralded by so many as "the most skilled NBA player of all time" (lol) whose effectiveness fell off a complete ****ing cliff once his athleticism started to wane. Did his fairly large dependence on his athleticism make him any less of a basketball player? Hell no.

Pathetic. People are dumb. It is what it is.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Here come the people ready with their hot takes now that Giannis looked human in a series :rolleyes:

He will come back better, you think this guy is done? He's improved every year. And I say this as someone that doesn't root for him.

His improvement this year from last year is marginal. But the improvement that needs to come is not in stats. His stats can be the same, or even worse next year. Where the improvement needs to come from is in "time and place." It is the burden of being the number 1 option. Not all number 1 options make that improvement, no matter how young they were.....

[tpols]

Shawn Marion is a great example of a guy who was a better athlete than basketball player too and i liked him.

He could barely dribble, shoot or pass but was everywhere. the matrix. Boris diaw was a better basketball player from a purists standpoint (by far) but a far worse athlete making him less effective in NBA's brand of ball.

doesnt mean you cant call it like it is...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah.

I'm not on that "Giannis is bad at basketball" bandwagon.

Me saying he is limited on offense? Its correlated with how he plays, and what defenses do to exploit him.

Take that play down the stretch last night. Bucks were down like 4 point with a minute left. Giannis refused to shoot within the FT line. He was given space too. Reggie Miller said that possession RIGHT THERE was why he needed a decent jumpshot. And will have to develop one this summer.

Saying that Giannis needs a jumper? Or has a limited scoring skillset...isn't hating. Or anyone being a quasi purist. Its just a fact.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yeah.

I'm not on that "Giannis is bad at basketball" bandwagon.

Me saying he is limited on offense? Its correlated with how he plays, and what defenses do to exploit him.

Take that play down the stretch last night. Bucks were down like 4 point with a minute left. Giannis refused to shoot within the FT line. He was given space too. Reggie Miller said that possession RIGHT THERE was why he needed a decent jumpshot. And will have to develop one this summer.

Saying that Giannis needs a jumper? Or has a limited scoring skillset...isn't hating. Or anyone being a quasi purist. Its just a fact.
Thank You

[Kblaze8855]

Shawn Marion is a great example of a guy who was a better athlete than basketball player too and i liked him.

He could barely dribble, shoot or pass but was everywhere. the matrix. Boris diaw was a better basketball player from a purists standpoint (by far) but a far worse athlete making him less effective in NBA's brand of ball.

doesnt mean you cant call it like it is...

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah.

I'm not on that "Giannis is bad at basketball" bandwagon.

Me saying he is limited on offense? Its correlated with how he plays, and what defenses do to exploit him.

Take that play down the stretch last night. Bucks were down like 4 point with a minute left. Giannis refused to shoot within the FT line. He was given space too. Reggie Miller said that possession RIGHT THERE was why he needed a decent jumpshot. And will have to develop one this summer.

Saying that Giannis needs a jumper? Or has a limited scoring skillset...isn't hating. Or anyone being a quasi purist. Its just a fact.


Not really. How bad can you

[Shogon]

I gotta say though the most annoying basketball argument I've ever heard about any specific NBA player was that "Shaq's only good because he's so big!"

I can't tell you how many times I heard that dumb shit over the years. If I had a dollar for every time I heard that from the age of like 12 to 30, I'd have an extra g note.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not really. How bad can you “need” something when you’re already HOF level and won more than most people with it?

He would benefit from it like everyone benefits from improving what they are weak at.

If he needed it his team couldn’t win 60 games and go to the conference finals on his back.

It would just make him better. Adding to your skillet makes everyone better.

We just get too dramatic about everyone’s flaws and act like losing is due specifically to them when 29 teams are gonna lose no matter what. Two teams of flawless players play one of them would lose....and a bunch of people on the internet would be boasting because they picked the loser to lose and act like they need to learn ____ as if players with every skill are gonna lose by necessity.

It’s more schadenfreude than anything.

We just like to see someone lose so we can talk shit.

But that's what self improvement is all about.

A player who likes to start his offense @ the top of the key and out. Handles the rock to suck in defenses with dribble penetration....That guy needs a jumper to make him less predictable. And to keep defenses honest.

Don't take my word for it. The TNT panel literally said that verbatim. Reggie Miller on live television said it during the closing seconds of last nights game. They're mostly Giannis fans so its not coming from a hateful place.

Yet you're here acting like...we're just talking shit.

[FKAri]

Yeah.

I'm not on that "Giannis is bad at basketball" bandwagon.

Me saying he is limited on offense? Its correlated with how he plays, and what defenses do to exploit him.

Take that play down the stretch last night. Bucks were down like 4 point with a minute left. Giannis refused to shoot within the FT line. He was given space too. Reggie Miller said that possession RIGHT THERE was why he needed a decent jumpshot. And will have to develop one this summer.

Saying that Giannis needs a jumper? Or has a limited scoring skillset...isn't hating. Or anyone being a quasi purist. Its just a fact.
I think everyone was shocked at that. He was like 8 feet from the basket with easily enough room to elevate for a jumpshot (hell from that distance even a hook or a floater would work). But he passed it out. Everyone saw that and it's concerning that a player of his caliber isn't confidant in taking that shot.

[NBAGOAT]

Sometimes people use need and could use interchangeably even if they don’t mean the same. Giannis doesn’t necessarily need a pull up jumper to lead a title team or even be considered the best player in the league, weirder things have happened. He could certainly use one to help his chances however

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Sometimes people use need and could use interchangeably even if they don’t mean the same. Giannis doesn’t necessarily need a pull up jumper to lead a title team or even be considered the best player in the league, weirder things have happened. He could certainly use one to help his chances however

I'll co-sign that.

Need is pretty strong. Him having one...would benefit both him and his team though. A LOT.

[tontoz]

Even without a jumper Giannis averaged over 28 ppg shooting 53% against Boston, one of the better defensive teams in the league.

In the ECF he faced one of the leagues best defensive bigs in Gasol and probably the best wing defender in Kawhi. It was only then that his lack of a jumper really hurt the team.

If he wants to win a title then yes he will probably need a jumper.







https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/captain20obvious.jpg (http://s56.photobucket.com/user/tontoz/media/captain20obvious.jpg.html)

[Kblaze8855]

But that's what self improvement is all about.

A player who likes to start his offense @ the top of the key and out. Handles the rock to suck in defenses with dribble penetration....That guy needs a jumper to make him less predictable. And to keep defenses honest.

Don't take my word for it. The TNT panel literally said that verbatim. Reggie Miller on live television said it during the closing seconds of last nights game. They're mostly Giannis fans so its not coming from a hateful place.

Yet you're here acting like...we're just talking shit.


Most are. People are saying he’s literally not good at basketball.

And the difference between people on tv talking about additions to his skill set and clowns on the internet is their willingness to acknowledge he’s great either way.

Giannis could regress to his 2018 level and be a first ballot hall of famer. If this season is his peak it will have been better than most legends. We have this crazy way of looking at things like the only people worth a damn are the 8-10 we choose to call the GOATs.

Giannis is....today....an all timer. At 24. That he can improve is without question like it is with everyone. But he’s a lot closer to not needing to add anything...than not being good at basketball. 3 of the 4 stars in the 2018 HOF class never accomplished anything as a teams best player he has not already. And 2 of them played till 40.

Put it in perspective....he’s doing better than ok.

[Naero]

If I actually listened to this overemphasis on "skills," I'd be convinced the NBA revolves around a game of H-O-R-S-E, not a winning-driven team game. It's a microcosm of the style-over-substance mindset, which is where many of the casual fans betray themselves.

Any logical roster-construction parameter would boil down to the players' impact, regardless of aestheticism; considering that Giannis anchored the Bucks—who weren't even a first-pick favorite for the Finals until halfway through the season—to a league-best sixty wins and the cusp of the NBA Finals without any magnetic playstyle, I'd imagine he proved himself in there.

Even as inglorious as the Bucks' ECF let-up was, they never would have reached that "chokeable" position to begin with if their MVP didn't belong in the NBA. It's easy to overscrutinize everything that went wrong with the team and its best player whenever they lose, because Giannis could have and should have played better, but at what point do you quit holding greatness to infallible standards and give credit to the other team (which Toronto's defense deserves no shortage of)? If Giannis were incessantly discussed in the GOAT conversation, I could understand this flak. But no one is weighing him on the Jordan scale, yet some of you are overreaching insofar as calling him a talentless basketball player as if relativizing him to the best who've ever played.

He does have skillsets to hone; that much is concessible. But his self-improvement isn't required to become a great basketball player; it's just needed to take the next step, both on an individual level (especially in the BITW discussion) and to propel his team to title contention.

How much of his skillsets—namely his shooting—are improvable, I'm not sure; I'd actually challenge someone to compile a list of players with Giannis' unwieldy frame who became dependable jumpshooters, because players that bulky generally are ill-built for shooting. However, he doesn't need to improve them to become a great player or even validate his MVP; that much he already established by averaging 27/12/6 all season on transcendent efficiency with minimal drop-off for most of the playoffs.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Most are. People are saying he’s literally not good at basketball.

And the difference between people on tv talking about additions to his skill set and clowns on the internet is their willingness to acknowledge he’s great either way.
Giannis could regress to his 2018 level and be a first ballot hall of famer. If this season is his peak it will have been better than most legends. We have this crazy way of looking at things like the only people worth a damn are the 8-10 we choose to call the GOATs.

Giannis is....today....an all timer. At 24. That he can improve is without question like it is with everyone. But he’s a lot closer to not needing to add anything...than not being good at basketball.

I'm not denying any of that.

Giannis is great. Today and ALL TIME.

What I am saying is, people who talk about dude refining his game...aren't haters. I am not a hater. Nor am I bullshitting. An improved jumper, hell even a decent one, makes Giannis unguardable.

Its not even Simmons bad *yikes* He's always hungry to improve so on that front, I am confident he will.

[NBAGOAT]

If I actually listened to this overemphasis on "skills," I'd be convinced the NBA revolves around a game of H-O-R-S-E, not a winning-driven team game. It's a microcosm of the style-over-substance mindset, which is where many of the casual fans betray themselves.

Any logical roster-construction parameter would boil down to the players' impact, regardless of aestheticism; considering that Giannis anchored the Bucks—who weren't even a first-pick favorite for the Finals until halfway through the season—to a league-best sixty wins and the cusp of the NBA Finals without any magnetic playstyle, I'd imagine he proved himself in there.

Even as inglorious as the Bucks' ECF let-up was, they never would have reached that "chokeable" position to begin with if their MVP didn't belong in the NBA. It's easy to overscrutinize everything that went wrong with the team and its best player whenever they lose, because Giannis could have and should have played better, but at what point do you quit holding greatness to infallible standards and give credit to the other team (which Toronto's defense deserves no shortage of)? If Giannis were incessantly discussed in the GOAT conversation, I could understand this flak. But no one is weighing him on the Jordan scale, yet some of you are overreaching insofar as calling him a talentless basketball player as if relativizing him to the best who've ever played.

He does have skillsets to hone; that much is concessible. But his self-improvement isn't required to become a great basketball player; it's just needed to take the next step, both on an individual level (especially in the BITW discussion) and to propel his team to title contention.

How much of his skillsets—namely his shooting—are improvable, I'm not sure; I'd actually challenge someone to compile a list of players with Giannis' unwieldy frame who became dependable jumpshooters, because players that bulky generally are ill-built for shooting. However, he doesn't need to improve them to become a great player or even validate his MVP; that much he already established by averaging 27/12/6 all season on transcendent efficiency with minimal drop-off for most of the playoffs.

That’s a really good point about his size and body. I think working on a floater and/or little hook could be useful. Also just work on the catch and shoot some(he showed promise there 2nd half of the year) enough at least where defenses can’t comfortably leave you open

[Kblaze8855]

There is a wide wide gulf between talking about any player refining their game and saying someone who is gonna moonwalk into the HOF even if they regress is actually not a good player. One is a reasonable discussion. One is being a jackass.

I don

[ClipperRevival]

Giannis has serious flaws in his game. That's not hating. He just does. He's only 24 and he's got the physical tools and what I feel is the willingness to get better. In that case, he will get better.

But get real. He has no half court offense. Everything for him must come in transition or with a head of steam. How about a triple threat game, mid-range game, post game, etc? These are the staples of half-court offenses. He has none of it. That's WHY Milwaukee lost. Your superstar needs to create offense in half court sets in the playoffs. Kawhi did, Giannis couldn't.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

There is a wide wide gulf between talking about any player refining their game and saying someone who is gonna moonwalk into the HOF even if they regress is actually not a good player. One is a reasonable discussion. One is being a jackass.

I don’t think you said he isn’t good so you wouldn’t be who I meant.

If you paid attention to the thread, you would know I didn't.

Appreciate the clarification though.

[NBAGOAT]

Giannis has serious flaws in his game. That's not hating. He just does. He's only 24 and he's got the physical tools and what I feel is the willingness to get better. In that case, he will get better.

But get real. He has no half court offense. Everything for him must come in transition or with a head of steam. How about a triple threat game, mid-range game, post game, etc? These are the staples of half-court offenses. He has none of it. That's WHY Milwaukee lost. Your superstar needs to create offense in half court sets in the playoffs. Kawhi did, Giannis couldn't.

This is a little outdated. Curry has none of those staples either and no matter what you say, he works as a superstar hub. Giannis with a floater and more accurate passing/vision honestly could also mitigate a lot of his issues

[stalkerforlife]

He averaged 10 points a game in his career with the Greek national team, playing in lower levels than EuroLeague.

He is worse under FIBA rules, much worse.

Got em.

[stalkerforlife]

[QUOTE=RRR3]:applause: :applause: :applause:


Can

[RRR3]

The fact that you read all of that is disturbing.
:cletus:

[Smoke117]

bump

[Gileraracer]

Since Lebron



Completely manufactured.

[yeaaaman]

This is a little outdated. Curry has none of those staples either and no matter what you say, he works as a superstar hub. Giannis with a floater and more accurate passing/vision honestly could also mitigate a lot of his issues

Considering how much he's improved year over year I think I don't have much time for these pile on type of threads. He's 24 and is about to be the league MVP. Look at where he was his rookie year then look at him now. The guy is just getting started, I see no reason to believe he won't improve.

[Kblaze8855]

Got em.

Giannis was 18 playing in Greece before he put up 7ppg as a rookie in the NBA. Last time he played for their national team he put up 15ppg...in a tournament only one guy scored 20....and that was 4 years ago when he was doing 16 a game in the NBA. And in that tournament his teammate Bourousis who was all euroleague first team at the time put up 12/7. People just dont do giant numbers in those games.

[tontoz]

Even if he doesn't develop a jumper he can become a lot more effective just by posting up. I don't remember him doing that at all.

Saying he has "no half court offense" is nonsense. On the season the Bucks scored 18 ppg on fast break points.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game


Giannis averaged 28 ppg so obviously he is doing a lot of scoring in the half court.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Giannis was 18 playing in Greece before he put up 7ppg as a rookie in the NBA. Last time he played for their national team he put up 15ppg...in a tournament only one guy scored 20....and that was 4 years ago when he was doing 16 a game in the NBA. And in that tournament his teammate Bourousis who was all euroleague first team at the time put up 12/7. People just dont do giant numbers in those games.
Why would take those seriously? They are obviously trolling. Euroleauge's best players are often players are americans that didn't get a chance in USA.

[Kblaze8855]

Well yea 4 of the top 5 euroleague scorers are Mickey Johnson, Toney Douglas(used to be a knick), Mike James(not the one youre thinking), and Cory Higgins with the 5th being Nando De Colo who used to be on the spurs 6-7 years ago. And I dont know who Brandon Davies and Will Clyburn are but they are are Americans on the all euroleague first team. Clyburn was their finals MVP. He was on the Kings and Clippers summer league teams in 2013 and 14 after he wasnt drafted. Never made the league.

[Phoenix]

Giannis is at the stage where he can physically will his way to 25 and 15, he's still raw and already a top 5 level player. It's more the mental maturity gained through experience that will take him over the top in the playoffs( though he does need a jumper the defense will honor), but we're acting like the guy has capped out or something. He's 24. 25-30 years ago or longer, if you were 24 you probably came into the NBA at 21-22 after 3/4 years of college and had 2-3 years under your belt. He's 24 with 6 years under his belt and still ascending. Chill a bit on the over-reaction....

[paksat]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]He

[Kblaze8855]

Once the put in that zero step nonsense that makes them not count the first of three steps they might as well have removed the rule. And the carry might as well have gone out once that first generation of big guards came in after magic. Grant hill would spin the ball in his palm for no reason and Steve Smith used carries and arm hooks to get around people all game. Now with the even bigger wing players like Giannis and Kd? It

[E_Stamkos]

Oh and....





You think most people 6'11'' 250 can be Giannis?

What do you think separates him from all the other 6'11'' 240-250 pound bum bigmen the last 70 years?

Hes insanely coordinated, skilled, and athletic for that size.

If he werent Steven Hunter could be Giannis. Dan Gadzuric probably out jumped Giannis. Same size. 6'11'' 240-250. Bum. If it isnt his exceptional athletic ability and skill for his build that makes the difference what is it? You think hes the only guy allowed to travel? Traveling doesnt even exist anymore.

Hes obviously an insane athlete for his size just as Shaq was. Give Dan Gadzuric the ball at 30 feet to go dominate and put up 28ppg.

When he doesnt...take a moment to think about why Giannis can and he cant...

Holy poop, a Dan Gadzuric reference lol
You're such a legend for that Blaze.

I've also met Steven Hunter at a club when he played for Philly. Dude was freakishly tall.

The whole team was doing their rounds in our nightclubs and then smashed us the next afternoon while likely still drunk. How things have changed.

[hold this L]

Giannis is at the stage where he can physically will his way to 25 and 15, he's still raw and already a top 5 level player. It's more the mental maturity gained through experience that will take him over the top in the playoffs( though he does need a jumper the defense will honor), but we're acting like the guy has capped out or something. He's 24. 25-30 years ago or longer, if you were 24 you probably came into the NBA at 21-22 after 3/4 years of college and had 2-3 years under your belt. He's 24 with 6 years under his belt and still ascending. Chill a bit on the over-reaction....
No, he isn't. If you replace Giannis with Curry, KD, Harden or Lebron, Milwaukee likely wins that series. People need to stop saying shit like top 3 or top 5, neither is remotely true. I still have him as the 6th best player in the league, but unless he adjusts his game he will always be a massive liability vs teams that are actual contenders for the title.

A reporter said the Raptors team was not worried at all for the Bucks. This wouldn't be happen any of those 5 guys.
https://twitter.com/DevInTheLab/status/1132491902802993152?s=19

[imdaman99]

No, he isn't. If you replace Giannis with Curry, KD, Harden or Lebron, Milwaukee likely wins that series.
Maybe. He's also a lot younger than the rest of those guys. Let's give him time to mature before we stick a nail in him as "THIS IS WHAT HE IS, HE IS NOT GETTING BETTER". He improves every year, he's not Ben Simmons'ing his summmers away.

[hold this L]

Maybe. He's also a lot younger than the rest of those guys. Let's give him time to mature before we stick a nail in him as "THIS IS WHAT HE IS, HE IS NOT GETTING BETTER". He improves every year, he's not Ben Simmons'ing his summmers away.
I never said he won't get better, his growth the last 3 years is remarkable. He is my MVP for the year and this season officially turned into a superstar. And as you said, I also thinks he will get better.

but I don't like when players get claims and support without earning their stripes. Harden being called the best, now Giannis in the last few years. You gotta earn it, and neither was true. I even heard some media "experts" say Bucks would be favorites vs Warriors before KD got injured. The f*cking nerve on that statement. As I said, he needs to evolve his game to be effective at half court offense. Post ups, shooting, playmaking, whatever it is.. he needs to improve it to enter the best in the world conversation.

You can't get credit without earning it first. Though it honestly feels like Nike got the checkbook out towards the media to push their new crown jewel.

[Phoenix]

No, he isn't. If you replace Giannis with Curry, KD, Harden or Lebron, Milwaukee likely wins that series. People need to stop saying shit like top 3 or top 5, neither is remotely true. I still have him as the 6th best player in the league, but unless he adjusts his game he will always be a massive liability vs teams that are actual contenders for the title.



You know how hilarious it is to make a post shitting on the idea that he's a top 5 player, only to tell me he's the 6th? Like really? No no, he's not the 4th best player, or the 5th.....he's 6th!!!!!!! :hammerhead: Come on dude, you're a better poster than that. Your inarguable, top 3 players RIGHT now, as in RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE are Kawhi, Curry and KD in whatever order your heart desires. Where Lebron fits into the pecking order RIGHT NOW is neither here or there until he re-establishes himself, but at 35 he's trending downwards. So to say Giannis is nowhere close to top 5( only to counter than he's 6th)....when there's only 3 inarguably in that category....like come on. After the top 3 trio aforementioned it gets murky with Harden, Giannis, and wherever Lebron lands next year.

Furthermore, I doubt Harden in this series instead of Freak changes the outcome. Harden's iso-heavy ball stopping routine would have played right into Kawhi's hands and the Raptors.

[FrenchDude]

Nice of you to emerge from that Arkansan cave you've been locked in for years while plotting how to get back at Giannis for doing your boy Spanoulis dirty.

Thread should have been closed right there :lol

[tpols]

Purists watch basketball not offense.
.


When was the last time a player won MVP for defense...?

Where's Rudy Gobert on the MVP ballot?

We are talking offense. They have an award for defense, DPOY.

MVP has always been an offensive award. And great offense has always been predicated on skill. The guys that win year in and year out the past 40 years... Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Hakeems olajuwan, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Steph curry, Dirk, etc skill rules this league.

Even shaq who you brought up before was far more skilled than Gianni, but less so than the aforementioned. He regularly underachieved by comparison too though.

The westbrooks, roses, giannis's, lebrons, and beyond don't win as much because they don't fit as well in high level team offenses. We know the league props them, and tries to force the hand, but it is what it is.

Giannis's offense is massively overrated until he gets a post game plays off ball and fits in high level systems.

This one man army dribble charge drive and kick style is elementary. Its bad basketball, and you've been sonned on this to the moon and back Idk what else to say.

[3ball]

.
Ball-dominant, non-shooters like Giannis, Westbrook and Lebron don't have the touch to make this shot from this awkward distance and spot:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2019/USGXmS.gif


Also, this shot doesn't use enough dribbling for lebron to execute.. And too much instinct/skill/footwork is required to know which direction to turn for the open shot

Sub-par midrange and 3-point shooters like Westbrook/Giannis/Lebron yield weaker teams than goat 3-point or midrange shooters Curry/MJ

because Curry/MJ's shooting ability allowed them to play off teammates/off-ball, which facilitates ball movement and better brand of ball/teams

[Kblaze8855]

You say:



analyze his skillset in a vacuum, hes not even really good at basketball.


But now basketball = offense....and you compare him to Rudy Gobert...when hes the second or third leading scorer in the NBA....on a team that was the 28th of 29 teams that will lose this season.

Stop even pretending to care about basketball. You might as well join the 9 year olds who think windmills make you great when you act like defense doesnt matter in the evaluation of how good a player is. And thats exactly what you did in the quote above.

Hes a top level defender...a top level rebounder...and scores 28ppg. There is no way to add that up to being bad at basketball because he has typical tall guy handles(meaning weak) and doesnt shoot.

Chris Dudley was a good player at times and did literally nothing but play man to man D and rebound.

Giannis would be useful if he could only score 12ppg. Hed probably get a hundred million off nothing but his defense and garbage baskets. Tell that guy to just go all out on D hed probably be the DPOY. Hell he might be DPOY now.

Youre just not really evaluating basketball. Youre looking at whats pretty like a casual fan tends to do.

[TheMan]

In defense of Rose, had he not injured his knee, and LeBron not go bitch mode and stack the deck, he'd might've had a ring or two by now.

Sure his playing style isn't conducive to a long career but with little to no injuries and he would've been explosive into his late 20s.

[3ball]

.
Ball-dominant, non-shooters like Giannis, Westbrook and Lebron don't have the touch to make this shot from this awkward distance and spot:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2019/USGXmS.gif


Also, this shot doesn't use enough dribbling for lebron to execute.. And too much instinct/skill/footwork is required to know which direction to turn for the open shot

Sub-par midrange and 3-point shooters like Westbrook/Giannis/Lebron yield weaker teams than goat 3-point or midrange shooters Curry/MJ- the latter's shooting ability allowed them to play off teammates/off-ball, which facilitates ball movement and better brand of ball/teams..
.

[Kblaze8855]

Sub-par midrange and 3-point shooters like Westbrook/Giannis/Lebron yield weaker teams than goat 3-point or midrange shooters Curry/MJ

because Curry/MJ's shooting ability allowed them to play off teammates/off-ball, which facilitates ball movement and better brand of ball/teams

Odd thing about that?

The only all time great 3 point shooters who won rings outside a bench/supporting cast role are the ones on the Warriors right now arent they?

You have Steph/Klay/Durant on the same team now. Outside them who is on your GOAT 3 point shooter list?

Mark Price
Chris Jackson
Glen Rice
Ray Allen
Pistol Pete
Peja
Dale Ellis
Steve Nash
Drazen
Reggie Miller
Harden
Alan Houston
Paul George
Dennis Scott
Lillard

Something like that right? Who am I missing?

Chris Mullin never won but even if he had...he only made 100 threes when he was washed up on the Pacers. Bird never did. Dirk is a GOAT shooter....but he didnt shoot as many threes as people believe. Shit I probably need t otake Chris Jackson off that list. He was a midrange player too.

When you talk about goat 3 point shooters leading teams to success....dont you pretty much have to just mean....the Warriors recently?

Dirk and Bird could have been volume shooters outside but didnt play that way. They were mostly 8-18 foot guys.

Who are your examples to suggest the 3 point shooting of your star makes teams great....other than the Warriors?

What great team am I forgetting?

Kyrie just came to mind but....theres no evidence he makes any team special that doesnt have Lebron on it.

Who else we got?

Who did I forget on the all time 3 point shooter list?

Joe Johnson? Vince Carter? Chuck Person?

None of these people really won anything.


Midrange shooters dominate....and then the Warriors came along. Them aside I dont know who else props up the 3 point shooting side of the winners argument.

[tpols]

3 pt shooting just exploded in the past 7 years or so...

Skill used to be concentrated in the midrange but curry and klay are unicorns. They basically shoot midrange percentages from 25 feet, but the key point is they play heavy off ball just like their midrange counterparts of the past which allows for GOAT teamwork and high brand of ball.

[Kblaze8855]

If I had to pick great shooting or great defense as a starting point for a team I wanted to win....I think...id go defense first. Im sure someone has a chart prepared to show threes are more valuable than defense at the moment though. Every coach(aside from Dantoni) would probably say give me the defense and we will figure the rest out though.

Thats the part that gets ignored. The Bulls were defensive monsters....the Warriors are at times....Birds celtics...top D in the league. Shaq/Kobe Lakers were defensive beasts when they needed to be. Duncans Spurs. THe Pistons. The Big 3 Celtics.

The old school in me wants to stop you....then figure out the other end.

[NBASTATMAN]

HARDEN should GET the MVP.. He did some ridiculous ish in the regular season while his team had plenty of injuries..

[NBAGOAT]

If I had to pick great shooting or great defense as a starting point for a team I wanted to win....I think...id go defense first. Im sure someone has a chart prepared to show threes are more valuable than defense at the moment though. Every coach(aside from Dantoni) would probably say give me the defense and we will figure the rest out though.

Thats the part that gets ignored. The Bulls were defensive monsters....the Warriors are at times....Birds celtics...top D in the league. Shaq/Kobe Lakers were defensive beasts when they needed to be. Duncans Spurs. THe Pistons. The Big 3 Celtics.

The old school in me wants to stop you....then figure out the other end.

naw 3pt shooting is only one aspect of offense while defense is half the game(some say a little less). I guess the problem is it's finding a star who can carry a defense as much as most stars can carry an offense. Building a great defense needs a coach with a good scheme and a lot of stars and role guys who will buy in. Just signing a couple superstars is really all you need to build a great offense.

[hold this L]

You know how hilarious it is to make a post shitting on the idea that he's a top 5 player, only to tell me he's the 6th? Like really? No no, he's not the 4th best player, or the 5th.....he's 6th!!!!!!! :hammerhead: Come on dude, you're a better poster than that. Your inarguable, top 3 players RIGHT now, as in RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE are Kawhi, Curry and KD in whatever order your heart desires. Where Lebron fits into the pecking order RIGHT NOW is neither here or there until he re-establishes himself, but at 35 he's trending downwards. So to say Giannis is nowhere close to top 5( only to counter than he's 6th)....when there's only 3 inarguably in that category....like come on. After the top 3 trio aforementioned it gets murky with Harden, Giannis, and wherever Lebron lands next year.

Furthermore, I doubt Harden in this series instead of Freak changes the outcome. Harden's iso-heavy ball stopping routine would have played right into Kawhi's hands and the Raptors.
If I said nowhere near top 5, then it is my bad. It's fair point to note about Lebron to prove himself again, in which case you can make argument for the Freek to be 5th. Lebron has such a stacked resume, then I give him the benefit of the doubt.. but you're right that you can make a case that he's got to do it again. I have to wait and see what Kawhi does in the final before I make any judgement, because depending what he and the Raptors accomplish determines where he ranks in the top 1-4 in the world. I am curious if he will give the Warriors more trouble than Harden (I genuinely don't know).

As for Harden playing into Toronto's hands.. lets uhh, wait and see what happens in the final to get a clearer picture. Keep in mind going vs Brogdon/Bledsoe is night and day from Harden/CP3, or Klay/Curry. Before that it was with a ball dominant PG that literally can't shoot and before that Orlando.

[Phoenix]

If I said nowhere near top 5, then it is my bad. It's fair point to note about Lebron to prove himself again, in which case you can make argument for the Freek to be 5th. Lebron has such a stacked resume, then I give him the benefit of the doubt.. but you're right that you can make a case that he's got to do it again. I have to wait and see what Kawhi does in the final before I make any judgement, because depending what he and the Raptors accomplish determines where he ranks in the top 1-4 in the world. I am curious if he will give the Warriors more trouble than Harden (I genuinely don't know).

As for Harden playing into Toronto's hands.. lets uhh, wait and see what happens in the final to get a clearer picture. Keep in mind going vs Brogdon/Bledsoe is night and day from Harden/CP3, or Klay/Curry. Before that it was with a ball dominant PG that literally can't shoot and before that Orlando.

Lebron very well may reaffirm his position next year, it remains to be seen. The list of players who were top 5 at 35 years old can probably be counted on one hand. Not saying it's impossible, but that's a lot of miles to be competing with when the 'oldest' players in your top 5 are Curry and Durant at 30/31 years old, Harden turns 30, Kawhi is 28, Freak at 24, then you got Embiid knocking on the door. Nobody on that list is on the cliff of falling off their current levels, and in the case of Kawhi, Embid and Giannis( especially the latter) they're still ascending.

I'm not referring specifically to Harden this year, I mean really his overall history as the man in Houston. The guy puts up historically gaudy regular season numbers but its never translated in the playoffs. He doesn't make the right play(s) at the time he needs to in order to get his team over the hump...but he'll have his statline. It's deceiving. With Toronto, you had Kawhi, Green and Siakim to give him different defensive looks. With Paul in a very obvious decline I don't see where else Houston gets an edge. Capella and Tucker vs Gasol and Ibaka? No real edge there. And if it boils just down to Harden and Kawhi...off what we're seeing unfold right before our eyes? I know which way I'm leaning there to take my team home.

[FKAri]

He's up there but not on MJ level of overatedness. That's rarefied air. That's where only the Kobe's and Lebron's have approached.

[insidious301]

Giannis is not overrated. I don't see many calling him BITW.

MVP? Yes - but that's a different discussion.
He needs to work on his game to take the next step. Or to enter "BITW range".

[jayfan]

No. Since Chris Paul.




.

[SamuraiSWISH]

3 pt shooting just exploded in the past 7 years or so...

Skill used to be concentrated in the midrange but curry and klay are unicorns. They basically shoot midrange percentages from 25 feet, but the key point is they play heavy off ball just like their midrange counterparts of the past which allows for GOAT teamwork and high brand of ball.
:applause:

[RRR3]

Saying Giannis isn

[juju151111]

When was the last time a player won MVP for defense...?

Where's Rudy Gobert on the MVP ballot?

We are talking offense. They have an award for defense, DPOY.

MVP has always been an offensive award. And great offense has always been predicated on skill. The guys that win year in and year out the past 40 years... Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Hakeems olajuwan, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Steph curry, Dirk, etc skill rules this league.

Even shaq who you brought up before was far more skilled than Gianni, but less so than the aforementioned. He regularly underachieved by comparison too though.

The westbrooks, roses, giannis's, lebrons, and beyond don't win as much because they don't fit as well in high level team offenses. We know the league props them, and tries to force the hand, but it is what it is.

Giannis's offense is massively overrated until he gets a post game plays off ball and fits in high level systems.

This one man army dribble charge drive and kick style is elementary. Its bad basketball, and you've been sonned on this to the moon and back Idk what else to say.
Lebron has just has much rings has Bird and is just has skilled has Bird. Why is LJ in west brick and Rose category :wtf:

[RRR3]

Lebron has just has much rings has Bird and is just has skilled has Bird. Why is LJ in west brick and Rose category :wtf:
Because he hates LeBron for being better than his hero Kobe.

[tpols]

If I had to pick great shooting or great defense as a starting point for a team I wanted to win....I think...id go defense first. Im sure someone has a chart prepared to show threes are more valuable than defense at the moment though. Every coach(aside from Dantoni) would probably say give me the defense and we will figure the rest out though.

Thats the part that gets ignored. The Bulls were defensive monsters....the Warriors are at times....Birds celtics...top D in the league. Shaq/Kobe Lakers were defensive beasts when they needed to be. Duncans Spurs. THe Pistons. The Big 3 Celtics.

The old school in me wants to stop you....then figure out the other end.


I mean the lynchpins for the warriors defense are a second round pick (dray), and a throwaway 8 ppg iggy. I think curry and klay were the harder pieces to find. Its always easier to find great defensive role players than offensive stars...and of course the offensive chemistry they promote bleeds over into defensive effort. We see this with Durant out, the defense is way better when everybody is involved on offense.

[Euroleague]

Giannis was 18 playing in Greece before he put up 7ppg as a rookie in the NBA. Last time he played for their national team he put up 15ppg...in a tournament only one guy scored 20....and that was 4 years ago when he was doing 16 a game in the NBA. And in that tournament his teammate Bourousis who was all euroleague first team at the time put up 12/7. People just dont do giant numbers in those games.

He was Greece's worst rotation player in every tournament.

Yeah, he's a better player now, and I am sure he should do better in FIBA tournaments going forward. But you are making up BS excuse after BS excuse. He has been awful every time he played with Greece so far.

[Euroleague]

Well yea 4 of the top 5 euroleague scorers are Mickey Johnson, Toney Douglas(used to be a knick), Mike James(not the one youre thinking), and Cory Higgins with the 5th being Nando De Colo who used to be on the spurs 6-7 years ago. And I dont know who Brandon Davies and Will Clyburn are but they are are Americans on the all euroleague first team. Clyburn was their finals MVP. He was on the Kings and Clippers summer league teams in 2013 and 14 after he wasnt drafted. Never made the league.

You are proving over and over that you have zero basketball knowledge.

[ILLsmak]

Didn't he smoke your Celtics?

Cs blew it. Theyre a weird team but this was one of the years it was looking like someone from the east could win, they gave up.

On Giannis nah he's good. Some people say hes not skilled but he's super skilled at body control. Dude does dunks basically no one else can, that I've seen. He doesn't need to learn to shoot, he needs fts and knock down Shooters. No one can stop him 1 on 1 for a series. He needs to be where he can go around bigs and post up smalls. He's OK but hell get even better. We don't need him jacking threes. The js he made in that series meant absolutely nothing (v raps I mean.)

Yea also a great shot blocker. And a good rebounder tho he lacks fundamentals arguably. He just needs to shore some shit up. He doesn't need to change his game that much. He needs his guys to make js tho

Edit: also Giannis will win a ring as best player. Write it down.


-Smak

[72-10]

it's hard to say what do ya think of his regimen

[CTbasketball92]

Giannis is already a top 5-6 player in the game, he just needs to develop some semblance of an off-the-dribble game. He has zero ISO moves. He just charges the rim every time and he's so long, strong and coordinated there's no reasonable way to stop him by the time he's within 8 feet of the rim.

He can't beat a team's gameplan without being a good shotmaker

[pauk]

Dunno about that but Giannis sure is overrated.

[Kblaze8855]

Prepare for quite a few bumps(not from me…this one will do). It really is amazing how young people get written off by some.

Supposed real fans legit believed this man was bad at basketball….

[Bawkish]

Is Giannis the best FT shooter in NBA Finals history??

[Manny98]

Prepare for quite a few bumps(not from me…this one will do). It really is amazing how young people get written off by some.

Supposed real fans legit believed this man was bad at basketball….
Savage bump :oldlol:

Poor Smoke

[kawhileonard2]

Naw Lebron is.

Did it without leaving the team, without recruiting stars.