If Lebron was really #1, he would't need more than Lowry, but unfortunately

[3ball]

Time of possession 2019

Lebron - 6.3 minutes

Giannis - 4.6 minutes

Durant - 4.2 minutes

Kawhi - 4.0 minutes

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1


Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance hinders the ball-movement/teamwork/team assist capacity that teammates need to play well, so ready-made superstars are required to have any chance for a contender - so he could never make it with Lowry

Lebron never made the Finals without superstars, except in 07' when everyone else was making it without them too (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice) - he infact left Cleveland because he needed superstars after losing as the favorite in 09' and 10'

Ultimately, Lebron's "spot-up shooter" brand doesn't develop young teammates or win frequently with super-teams
.

[Dray n Klay]

Why was 4 rebounds and 2 assists enough for Jordan?

[Gileraracer]

That's 100% correct.

No Lebron led team will ever have good ball movement. That's why he lost 6 finals with some of the most stacked teams ever.

[bigkingsfan]

Leonard and Lowry both have the same time of possession in the playoffs.

[superduper]

That's 100% correct.

No Lebron led team will ever have good ball movement. That's why he lost 6 finals with some of the most stacked teams ever.

The more context that you see, the less impressive fake stats become. Imagine thinking more stats = best :roll: :roll:

Casuals insult the game by thinking it's that simple.

[3ball]

Leonard and Lowry both have the same time of possession in the playoffs.

Time of possession Playoffs

Lebron 2018 - 9.5 minutes

Kawhi 2019 - 5.3 minutes

Durant 2019 - 4.6 minutes

Giannis 2019 - 4.4 minutes


https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1


Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance for his position hinders the ball-movement/teamwork/team assist capacity that teammates need to play well, so ready-made superstars are required to have any chance for a contender - so he could never make it with Lowry

Lebron never made the Finals without superstars, except in 07' when everyone else was making it without them too (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice) - he infact left Cleveland because he needed superstars after losing as the favorite in 09' and 10'

Ultimately, Lebron's "spot-up shooter" brand doesn't develop young teammates or win frequently with super-teams

[Gileraracer]

How about Lebrons 2019 stats? Any data for that?

[Objectivity]

Time of possession Playoffs

Lebron 2018 - 9.5 minutes

Kawhi 2019 - 5.3 minutes

Durant 2019 - 4.6 minutes

Giannis 2019 - 4.4 minutes


https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1


Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance for his position hinders the ball-movement/teamwork/team assist capacity that teammates need to play well, so ready-made superstars are required to have any chance for a contender - so he could never make it with Lowry

Lebron never made the Finals without superstars, except in 07' when everyone else was making it without them too (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice) - he infact left Cleveland because he needed superstars after losing as the favorite in 09' and 10'

Ultimately, Lebron's "spot-up shooter" brand doesn't develop young teammates or win frequently with super-teams

:lebroncry:


Bran stans avoiding 3ball like the plague :lol

[bigkingsfan]

Time of possession

Lebron 2018 Playoffs - 9.5 minutes

Kawhi 2019 Playoffs - 5.3 minutes

Durant 2019 Playoffs - 4.6 minutes

Giannis 2019 Playoffs- 4.4 minutes


https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1


Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance for his position hinders the ball-movement/teamwork/team assist capacity that teammates need to play well, so ready-made superstars are required to have any chance for a contender - so he could never make it with Lowry

Lebron never made the Finals without superstars, except in 07' when everyone else was making it without them too (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice) - he infact left Cleveland because he needed superstars after losing as the favorite in 09' and 10'

Ultimately, Lebron's "spot-up shooter" brand doesn't develop young teammates or win frequently with super-teams
Move that goalpost, before it was the PG should always lead time of possession.

Check Lebron when he had Kyrie.
2017 6.7 vs 6.4
2016 6.2 vs 5.3
2015 6.5 vs 6.5

2/3 Kyrie has him beaten.

[Phoenix]

Why was 4 rebounds and 2 assists enough for Jordan?

Why did Kawhi just go through the finals averaging 3.8 assists, beating the guy who averaged more rebounds and assists? Giannis averaged more rebounds, assists, and blocks in the ECFs. STATSSZZZZ right?

Maybe, just maybe, it goes a little deeper than accumulating stats? Now shut the fukk up and go deepthroat a shotgun babyboi.

[Manny98]

Siakam - 19ppg 46%
Lowry - 15ppg 44%

Compare that to

Love - 15ppg 39%
Hill - 9ppg 45%

Also

Gasol > TT
Danny Green > JR
Ibaka > Green

And so on...

Kawhi had MUCH more help than LeBron did last year

[TheCorporation]

I've destroyed you on this several times, but what's one more beating?

You're questioning why the greatest playmaker with the highest basketball IQ in NBA history holds the ball longer than Kyle Lowry

Don't run now cutie pie

/thread

[3ball]

Siakam - 19ppg 46%
Lowry - 15ppg 44%

Compare that to

Love - 15ppg 39%
Hill - 9ppg 45%

Also

Gasol > TT
Danny Green > JR
Ibaka > Green

And so on...

Kawhi had MUCH more help than LeBron did last year
Nick Wright says why Kawhi (and even moreso MJ) was better than Giannis in the series:


The Raptors had a closer and the Bucks did not".... "When all else failed, the Raptors had a guy they could give the ball to and say'get us a bucket'"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TC9lRrU7Y80&t=05m00s


Wow.. sounds like Nick is talking about MJ.. :lebronamazed:

[Hey Yo]

Why did Kawhi just go through the finals averaging 3.8 assists, beating the guy who averaged more rebounds and assists? Giannis averaged more rebounds, assists, and blocks in the ECFs. STATSSZZZZ right?

Maybe, just maybe, it goes a little deeper than accumulating stats? Now shut the fukk up and go deepthroat a shotgun babyboi.
Holy Christ...... so shook you're wishing death upon a total stranger??

stay classy, chico.

[Phoenix]

Holy Christ...... so shook you're wishing death upon a total stranger??

stay classy, chico.

Shook? Wishing death? I was just giving him an option beyond his rather useless life trolling on ISH. But hey, do him I guess. You got guys on here talking shit on the regular about MJ being responsible for his dad's death, but THAT above is where your moral sensibilities get offended? Please....

Have a good one chico. :cheers:

[3ball]

I've destroyed you on this several times, but what's one more beating?

You're questioning why the greatest playmaker with the highest basketball IQ in NBA history holds the ball longer than Kyle Lowry

Don't run now cutie pie

/thread
No one player is a substitute for ball movement, which gets better looks for role players than 1 guy dominating the ball in the halfcourt.

Since ball movement wins more rings than 1 guy dominating the ball in the halfcourt, great players must be good enough to produce without holding the ball long so teammates can hold the ball and the offense can have diversity/effectiveness at the highest level (Finals)

And another thing - just because a player doesn't hold the ball long doesn't mean he isn't taking the most shots and controlling the game - MJ controlled the game more and took more shots by playing off-ball a lot, which facilitated ball movement by allowing teammates to find him (assist target)

TLDR:. Look at all the guys at the top of the time of possession list (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) - they're all losers - they're all at home!!. so fools better get an off-ball game to produce off-ball or go home.. :confusedshrug:

[Vino24]

2016 put Bron over MJ

[ImKobe]

How did the Lakers add a 27/8/8 guy but not get better on offense? They went from 23rd in 2018 to 24th this year. Lebron Ball only benefits Lebron.

[Objectivity]

How did the Lakers add a 27/8/8 guy but not get better on offense? They went from 23rd in 2018 to 24th this year. Lebron Ball only benefits Lebron.

:lebroncry:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How did the Lakers add a 27/8/8 guy but not get better on offense? They went from 23rd in 2018 to 24th this year. Lebron Ball only benefits Lebron.

:biggums: :eek:

[TheBranStan]

Siakam - 19ppg 46%
Lowry - 15ppg 44%

Compare that to

Love - 15ppg 39%
Hill - 9ppg 45%

Also

Gasol > TT
Danny Green > JR
Ibaka > Green

And so on...

Kawhi had MUCH more help than LeBron did last year
Boom!

[Indian guy]

:biggums: :eek:

Really? :rolleyes:

Let's just ignore the fact that LeBron missed 27 games; games in which Lakers were comfortably the worst offensive team in the league.

For the season Lakers had an ORTG of 111.5 with LeBron on the floor, 105.8 off. 111.5 would be a borderline top 10 offensive in the league. 105.8 would be bottom 3.

[3ball]

Really? :rolleyes:

Let's just ignore the fact that LeBron missed 27 games; games in which Lakers were comfortably the worst offensive team in the league.

For the season Lakers had an ORTG of 111.5 with LeBron on the floor, 105.8 off. 111.5 would be a borderline top 10 offensive in the league. 105.8 would be bottom 3.

Increase in team ORTG caused by player's presence in court - regular season



Durant - 14.8
Curry - 13.6
Harden - 9.7
Kawhi - 8.0
Giannis - 6.5
Lebron - 5.7

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612744/onoffcourt-summary/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=DIFF_OFF_RATING&dir=1


So lebron is last among his peers, which is why he missed Playoffs and they made it

[sdot_thadon]

Damn 3ball you really opened my eyes with this one. If Mj was number 1 he'd have been able to win a chip with less than his opponent instead of always having at minimum the same talent as his opponent. (sadly most times he had more than the team he faced, some goat right?)

[3ball]

Damn 3ball you really opened my eyes with this one. If Mj was number 1 he'd have been able to win a chip with less than his opponent instead of always having at minimum the same talent as his opponent. (sadly most times he had more than the team he faced, some goat right?)


How did Drexler make the 1990 Finals averaging 18 ppg as 3rd option for the first 3 rounds?

It's because he had a stacked team, much more than MJ ever had.. the Bulls wouldn't win a single series with MJ averaging 18 ppg

In 1991, Vlade and Perkins (17/10) were the next best players after the Magic/MJ and Worthy/Pippen matchups.. and in 1993, everyone knew the Suns were the most stacked team in the league

So ur wrong

And MJ's conference always required a star teammate and a great team to make the Finals, while lebron's didn't - the 00's decade was peppered with weak teams making the Finals (Dwight, AI, Lebron, Kidd twice) - but even though a strong team wasn't necessary, lebron lost in 09/10 and stacked the deck to ensure Finals runs from 11-18'

Also, it's on Lebron for only winning 51 games with Kyrie/Love and being an underdog.. there's no reason he shouldn't have won 60+ like Kawhi and had better odds.. like, lebron's 2nd option outplayed the Warriors' 1st option in 2016 - lebron's cast was simply not lacking in talent, but they WERE lacking a viable brand of ball

[sdot_thadon]

How did Drexler make the 1990 Finals averaging 18 ppg as 3rd option for the first 3 rounds?

It's because he had a stacked team, much more than MJ ever had.. the Bulls wouldn't win a single series with MJ averaging 18 ppg

In 1991, Vlade and Perkins (17/10) were the next best players after the Magic/MJ and Worthy/Pippen matchups.. and in 1993, everyone knew the Suns were the most stacked team in the league

So ur wrong

And MJ's conference always required a star teammate and a great team to make the Finals, while lebron's didn't - the 00's decade was peppered with weak teams making the Finals (Dwight, AI, Lebron, Kidd twice) - but even though a strong team wasn't necessary, lebron lost in 09/10 and stacked the deck to ensure Finals runs from 11-18'

Also, it's on Lebron for only winning 51 games with Kyrie/Love and being an underdog.. there's no reason he shouldn't have won 60+ like Kawhi and had better odds.. like, lebron's 2nd option outplayed the Warriors' 1st option in 2016 - lebron's cast was simply not lacking in talent, but they WERE lacking a viable brand of ball
Worthy was injured in the back end of the 91 finals my man. Mj almost always enjoyed a talent advantage over his opponents. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[3ball]

Worthy was injured in the back end of the 91 finals my man. Mj almost always enjoyed a talent advantage over his opponents. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Worthy led the Lakers with 19 on 47% in the Finals, just like the regular season in 40 mpg

So ur wrong again

Pippen couldn't hold Worthy below his regular season averages.. at least MJ held magic to below-par shooting

[TheCorporation]

Why did Kawhi just go through the finals averaging 3.8 assists, beating the guy who averaged more rebounds and assists? Giannis averaged more rebounds, assists, and blocks in the ECFs. STATSSZZZZ right?

Maybe, just maybe, it goes a little deeper than accumulating stats? Now shut the fukk up and go deepthroat a shotgun babyboi.

Seek help, chico

[TheCorporation]

2016 put Bron over MJ


100% without a doubt

Whats so bad about MJ being #2 :confusedshrug:

MJ stans cant handle it

[TheCorporation]

Worthy led the Lakers with 19 on 47% in the Finals, just like the regular season in 40 mpg

So ur wrong again

Pippen couldn't hold Worthy below his regular season averages.. at least MJ held magic to below-par shooting

So now Worthty wasn't hurt in '91 and Magic wasnt playing with AIDS?

:lol

What's next. MJ didnt really go 1-9 with 3x 1st round exits?!

[3ball]

So now Worthty wasn't hurt in '91 and Magic wasnt playing with AIDS?

:lol

What's next. MJ didnt really go 1-9 with 3x 1st round exits?!
Again, worthy led the Lakers with 19 on 47%, same as the regular season in 40 mpg.. He only missed game 5 after the Bulls were up 3-1

So Pippen couldn't hold Worthy below his regular season averages, injury or not.. Otoh, MJ held magic to below-par shooting

And Magic was runner-up for mvp in 1991... So again, Vlade and Perkins (17/10) were the next best players after the Magic/MJ and Worthy/Pippen matchups.. and in 1993, everyone knew the Suns were the most stacked team in the league

Every conference requires a star teammate and a great team to make the Finals, except lebron's - the 00's was peppered with weak teams making the Finals (Dwight, AI, Lebron, Kidd twice) - but even though a strong team wasn't necessary, lebron lost in 09/10 and stacked the deck to ensure Finals runs from 11-18'

[sdot_thadon]

3ball it saddens me that you project to be such a huge Mj stan but only skim the details. I'll post back here in a little bit and give you some info on Worthy in the 91 finals.

[NBAGOAT]

How did the Lakers add a 27/8/8 guy but not get better on offense? They went from 23rd in 2018 to 24th this year. Lebron Ball only benefits Lebron.

tbf hasnt the same thing happened to the raptors :oldlol:. 2nd to 5th.

Back to op, his problem is he like most people focuses way too much on only the top guys. If you think toronto is just kawhi and lowry, then yea you really just dont watch basketball

[3ball]

3ball it saddens me that you project to be such a huge Mj stan but only skim the details. I'll post back here in a little bit and give you some info on Worthy in the 91 finals.
Ok, in the meantime, remember that Finals Worthy was healthy enough to lead the Lakers in scoring and get his regular season numbers (19 on 47%) at 40 mog

And remember that Worthy was healthy enough for the Lakers to be big favorites by the whole media:



NBA.com history archives:

"the Bulls were considered big underdogs to the Lakers in the Finals and the vast majority of media "experts" predicted an easy Lakers' victory."

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/top-20-moments-1990-91-season.html/
..
And remember that Pippen played all 82 games in 1991. So he didn't miss the all-star game because he didn't play or was hurt - he just missed it because people didn't think he was good enough and he wasn't in his prime yet

His rep was still suffering from his legendary choke in the prior year's game 7.

So MJ did infact win the 91' ring with a young, still-developing team, and of course, no all-stars.. NBA.com reported that the Bulls were consensus underdogs in the media (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13720437&postcount=36) heading into the 91' Finals versus the 5-time dynasty.
.

[StrongLurk]

Ok, in the meantime, remember that Finals Worthy was healthy enough to lead the Lakers in scoring and get his regular season numbers (19 on 47%) at 40 mog

And remember that Worthy was healthy enough for the Lakers to be big favorites by the whole media:



NBA.com history archives:

"the Bulls were considered big underdogs to the Lakers in the Finals and the vast majority of media "experts" predicted an easy Lakers' victory."

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/top-20-moments-1990-91-season.html/
..
And remember that Pippen played all 82 games in 1991. So he didn't miss the all-star game because he didn't play or was hurt - he just missed it because people didn't think he was good enough and he wasn't in his prime yet

His rep was still suffering from his legendary choke in the prior year's game 7.

So MJ did infact win the 91' ring with a young, still-developing team, and of course, no all-stars.. NBA.com reported that the Bulls were consensus underdogs in the media (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13720437&postcount=36) heading into the 91' Finals versus the 5-time dynasty.
.

Lakers didn't even have ONE 20ppg scorer in the 91 finals?

Weak Era.

[sdot_thadon]

INGLEWOOD, Calif. -- Injured Los Angeles Lakers forward James Worthy (ankle) and shooting guard Byron Scott (shoulder) were listed as questionable for Game 5 of the NBA Finals with the Chicago Bulls tomorrow night, but of the two, Worthy seemed less likely to play.

"With a badly sprained ankle, you generally need three weeks to a month to get back, but I've only got a few days between games," said Worthy, who first injured his left ankle in Game 5 against Portland in the Western Conference finals.

He has been hobbling noticeably, and his inability to soar to the hoop for stuff shots and finger rolls has put a crimp in the Lakers' already-limited offense.

In Game 4 on Sunday, he scored 12 points, but left the court for good with 2 minutes, 49 seconds remaining in the third quarter.

That's the Lakers' Leading scorer.

Also if you can tell me about Steph being injured and Draymond missing game 5 in 2016:

please tell us about Worthy being injured and he and Scott both missing game 5 in 91.

[3ball]

That's the Lakers' Leading scorer.

Also if you can tell me about Steph being injured and Draymond missing game 5 in 2016:

please tell us about Worthy being injured and he and Scott both missing game 5 in 91.
Right, everyone knows worthy missed game 5, but they were down 3-1 anyway

But he was healthy enough to lead the Lakers with 19 on 48% just like the regular season, in 40 mpg.. to get the 3-1 deficit
.

[StrongLurk]

Right, everyone knows worthy missed game 5, but they were down 3-1 anyway

But he was healthy enough to lead the Lakers with 19 on 48% just like the regular season, in 40 mpg.. to get the 3-1 deficit
.

So an INJURED WORTHY was the best scorer for those Lakers in the finals?

Weak Era for elite teams...

[3ball]

So an INJURED WORTHY was the best scorer for those Lakers in the finals?

Weak Era for elite teams...
Nah, the Lakers had two 19-pt guys and two 17-pt guys

The bulls had a 31 guy and a 19-pt guy, so way less help.. (edit: pippen was at 20.8, not 19)...

But the bulls offset their talent deficit with better teamwork/better basketball, and obviously MJ

[Sportal]

Imagine being that ****ing dense that you think the Raptors team this year for Leonard is worse than last year's Cavs...

[StrongLurk]

Nah, the Lakers had two 19-pt guys and two 17-pt guys

The bulls had a 31 guy and a 19-pt guy, so way less help.. (edit: pippen was at 20.8, not 19)...

But the bulls offset their talent deficit with better teamwork/better basketball, and obviously MJ

Not discounting MJ's play, just the era in general for having weak elite teams, especially the last half of the 90's.

[3ball]

Not discounting MJ's play, just the era in general for having weak elite teams, especially the last half of the 90's.



The bulls were weak without MJ, who faced greater talent in each of his first 3 Finals:



- Lakers had two 19-pt guys and two 17-pt guys, versus the Bulls' 31 and 19 guys

- Blazers were so stacked that they made the 90' Finals with Drexler at 3rd option averaging 18 ppg in first 3 rounds

- Everyone knows the Suns were the most stacked team in the league


So regardless of how weak you think the teams were, MJ's weak help meant he was often facing teams with better talent top to bottom

[egokiller]

Damn it wheels, get the fvck back in your wheelchair and wheel your ass out side to see the sun on this fine memorial day you pos troll!

[RRR3]

Shook? Wishing death? I was just giving him an option beyond his rather useless life trolling on ISH. But hey, do him I guess. You got guys on here talking shit on the regular about MJ being responsible for his dad's death, but THAT above is where your moral sensibilities get offended? Please....

Have a good one chico. :cheers:
It

[And1AllDay]

Time of possession 2019

Lebron - 6.3 minutes

Giannis - 4.6 minutes

Durant - 4.2 minutes

Kawhi - 4.0 minutes

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1


Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance hinders the ball-movement/teamwork/team assist capacity that teammates need to play well, so ready-made superstars are required to have any chance for a contender - so he could never make it with Lowry

Lebron never made the Finals without superstars, except in 07' when everyone else was making it without them too (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice) - he infact left Cleveland because he needed superstars after losing as the favorite in 09' and 10'

Ultimately, Lebron's "spot-up shooter" brand doesn't develop young teammates or win frequently with super-teams
.


https://i.postimg.cc/1tft0f9g/Seek-help.png

[sdot_thadon]

Right, everyone knows worthy missed game 5, but they were down 3-1 anyway

But he was healthy enough to lead the Lakers with 19 on 48% just like the regular season, in 40 mpg.. to get the 3-1 deficit
.
No my man injured as in not his normal all star self. Injured as in had he been 100% there's no way in hell Phil would have felt comfortable moving Scottie over to Magic off the Lakers' main scorer. So not only did he miss the 4th qtr of a game 4 still being fought but he also missed game 5.....after playing with a high ankle sprain from the last round.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No my man injured as in not his normal all star self. Injured as in had he been 100% there's no way in hell Phil would have felt comfortable moving Scottie over to Magic off the Lakers' main scorer. So not only did he miss the 4th qtr of a game 4 still being fought but he also missed game 5.....after playing with a high ankle sprain from the last round.

Would've been cool to see Kareem circa 88...or even 89 with that Laker team.

Divac was a nice little addition, but his defense wasn't what Kareem provided. The chemistry was never the same.

I agree that LA would've benefited with a healthy Worthy btw. Coop also who retired the year prior.

[sdot_thadon]

Would've been cool to see Kareem circa 88...or even 89 with that Laker team.

Divac was a nice little addition, but his defense wasn't what Kareem provided. The chemistry was never the same.

I agree that LA would've benefited with a healthy Worthy btw. Coop also who retired the year prior.
Well yeah, they definitely weren't showtime. Not that it's Mj's fault at all, you can only play who's in front and center at that moment. I'm not sure those Bulls beat showtime but it would have been a really entertaining series to see prime Mj pushed to the limit.

[3ball]

No my man injured as in not his normal all star self Injured as in had he been 100% there's no way in hell Phil would have felt comfortable moving Scottie over to Magic off the Lakers' main scorer. So not only did he miss the 4th qtr of a game 4 still being fought but he also missed game 5.....after playing with a high ankle sprain from the last round.
HOF and all-nba Worthy was mostly guarded by Pippen and when Pippen did spot-duty on Magic, MJ was guarding Worthy..

So it wasn't an issue for Phil

[3ball]

Would've been cool to see Kareem circa 88...or even 89 with that Laker team.

Divac was a nice little addition, but his defense wasn't what Kareem provided. The chemistry was never the same.

I agree that LA would've benefited with a healthy Worthy btw. Coop also who retired the year prior.
Lakers added both Divac and 16/8 Perkins, both of which averaged 17/10 in the Finals

Their presence bumped 90' all-star AC Green to the bench in 91'..

those Lakers were stacked, even without Byron Scott or with Big Game James banged up at 19 on 48% vs Pip/MJ

[RRR3]

I love how LeBron haters say he “needed superstars” when he has won a ring not getting superstar production from any of his teammates (2013).

[StrongLurk]

[QUOTE=RRR3]I love how LeBron haters say he

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Well yeah, they definitely weren't showtime. Not that it's Mj's fault at all, you can only play who's in front and center at that moment. I'm not sure those Bulls beat showtime but it would have been a really entertaining series to see prime Mj pushed to the limit.

100%


Lakers added both Divac and 16/8 Perkins, both of which averaged 17/10 in the Finals

Their presence bumped 90' all-star AC Green to the bench in 91'..

those Lakers were stacked, even without Byron Scott or with Big Game James banged up at 19 on 48% vs Pip/MJ

And still weren't showtime level.

Not even close without Pat Riley and Kareem.

[3ball]

100%



And still weren't showtime level.

Not even close without Pat Riley and Kareem.
But a better cast than the Bulls and favored as such by the entire media (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13720437&postcount=36)

After the Magic/MJ and Worthy/Pippen matchups, who are the next best players in the series?

It's clearly that 17/10 Divac and Perkins are... All-star AC Green was relegated to the bench
.

[NBAGOAT]

But a better cast than the Bulls and favored as such by the entire media (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13720437&postcount=36)

After the Magic/MJ and Worthy/Pippen matchups, who are the next best players in the series?

It's clearly that 17/10 Divac and Perkins are... All-star AC Green was relegated to the bench
.

It was grant

[RRR3]

It was grant
Incoming meltdown about how Grant was a complete scrub.

[3ball]

Incoming meltdown about how Grant was a complete scrub.
1991 Finals

V DIVAC:'. 18.2.. 8.8.. 2.0.. 1.8 stl.. 2.4 blk.. 56.5 fg.. 16.1 gmsc
HORACE:. 14.6.. 7.6.. 1.6.. 1.6 stl.. 0.6 blk.. 62.7 fg.. 13.9 gmsc


After the Magic/MJ and Worthy/Pippen matchup, Divac and Perkins were the next-best players.
..

[RRR3]

1991 Finals

V DIVAC:'. 18.2.. 8.8.. 2.0.. 1.8 stl.. 2.4 blk.. 56.5 fg.. 16.1 gmsc
HORACE:. 14.6.. 7.6.. 1.6.. 1.6 stl.. 0.6 blk.. 62.7 fg.. 13.9 gmsc


After the Magic/MJ and Worthy/Pippen matchup, Divac and Perkins were the next-best players.
..
Meltdown. Grant>>>>Perkins.

[3ball]

Meltdown. Grant>>>>Perkins.
So you concede that Vlade was the best player after the Magic/MJ and Worthy/Pippen matchups.. ::cheers:

And Perkins > Grant too - more scoring, far more blocks, far more threes (39%)


V DIVAC:.'. 18.2.. 8.8.. 2.0.. 1.8 stl.. 2.4 blk.. 56.5 fg
HORACE:.. 14.6.. 7.6.. 1.6.. 1.6 stl.. 0.6 blk.. 62.7 fg
PERKINS:'. 16.6.. 7.6.. 1.0.. 0.4 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 40.5 fg
.

[Turbo Slayer]

,:bowdown:

[nashwade]

Siakam - 19ppg 46%
Lowry - 15ppg 44%

Compare that to

Love - 15ppg 39%
Hill - 9ppg 45%

Also

Gasol > TT
Danny Green > JR
Ibaka > Green

And so on...

Kawhi had MUCH more help than LeBron did last year

i don't get why this is even in question. I can't imagine anyone in the league currently being able to drag THAT cavs team to the finals other than Lebron.

[3ball]

i don't get why this is even in question. I can't imagine anyone in the league currently being able to drag THAT cavs team to the finals other than Lebron.
The stats and accolades show that Love is better than Siakam but Lebron makes guys play worse alongside him then they normally do - Rodney Hood and Hill played much better for other teams in these playoffs and obviously Love was better without lebron too

Lebron's teammates play bad with or without him because he reduces everyone to spot-up shooters - weak teams let 1 guy dribble most of the time, so the team collapses without that guy.. Otoh, dynasty teams play great basketball with or without their star because they move the ball instead of having 1 guy dribble it all the time

Similar to other ball-dominators like Westbrook and Harden, lebron's teams play bad basketball.... people simply ignored it because he had super-teams that were winning the LEast every year..

Otoh, the bulls won 47 games and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without mj's 33/8/8 in 1989.. that same lottery cast three-peated from 91-93' - so the 94' Bulls were a lottery cast that had developed the know-how, teamwork and goat brand required of all dynasties.. they managed off teamwork, not talent.