Analysis of Kawhi Leonard's game

[insidehoops]

How would you describe Kawhi Leonard's game?

What specifically do you think he's best (or damn good) at?

And what should he improve? Every player has stuff they can do better.

[bullettooth]

Kawhi's game is a lot like MJ's... not as refined, but it's close:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3z2dCpnsEA

[FKAri]

Kawhi's game is a lot like MJ's... not as refined, but it's close:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3z2dCpnsEA
Due to his size he doesn't have any of MJ's quick moves. So he's more plodding and a lot more predictable. But he seems stronger and seemingly more effective with bully ball inside. More similar to an older MJ.

[Phoenix]

Diet coke version of 2nd 3peat MJ. Better 3point shooter( doesn't hugely rely on it compared to other perimeter stars today), better handles. Less fluid, less prolific midrange shooter, worse post-up, worse passer, less athletic.

[Manny98]

Diet coke version of 2nd 3peat MJ. Better 3point shooter( doesn't hugely rely on it compared to other perimeter stars today), better handles. Less fluid, less prolific midrange shooter, worse post-up, worse passer, less athletic.
Kawhi is better than second 3 peat MJ lol

Take off your MJ c*cksucking binoculars for once in your life :lol

[Phoenix]

Kawhi is better than second 3 peat MJ lol

Take off your MJ c*cksucking binoculars for once in your life :lol

He's not better than 96 or 97 MJ. 98, perhaps, but we have to get to 35 year old MJ before current Kawhi is arguably better than him, the Kawhi we're arguing as a top 3 player today....and he's not definitively better than MJ on his last legs in 98 in terms of being an MVP level player? Like, I can see the argument for 98 MJ....but we're talking 98 MJ. 35 year old MJ. The one who barely had lift. The one who was hunched over at the end of game 7 against the Pacers gasping. That MJ is the one you're arguing Kawhi is better than. You probably were swimming around in your dads balls when that was happening, because nothing you say leads me to believe you were alive for any of this shit.

Now go fukk off and do your homework, the adults are talking. You can't refute any point I made, except 'bu bu but Kawhi's better'. Just the level of discourse I'd expect from someone who just woke up from his kindergarten map. You're a waste of sperm.

[Manny98]

Defense - Kawhi wins (by a mile)

Scoring - both average around 30ppg but Kawhi is more efficient

Stats - Pretty much even in PER and win shares

So how is MJ better? 96 MJ i guess is better but 97 & 98? Foh your delusional

[bullettooth]

Kawhi is better than second 3 peat MJ lol

Take off your MJ c*cksucking binoculars for once in your life :lol

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=467904

[Phoenix]

Defense - Kawhi wins (by a mile)

Scoring - both average around 30ppg but Kawhi is more efficient

Stats - Pretty much even in PER and win shares

So how is MJ better? 96 MJ i guess is better but 97 & 98? Foh your delusional

MJ was 30.4 58% TS in 96 and 29.6 on 57% TS in 97. Since when is 26.6 'around' 30 you inbreed? You also fail to account for it being easier to score in today's game, you'd have to be an outright fukking idiot to argue that the defensive rules don't encourage higher efficiency numbers. Then again context isn't something you'd have learned yet at this stage of elementary education.

Mike had slight edge in steals and assists. PER? 29.4 in 96/27.8 in 97 for Mike, 25.8 for Kawhi. Your idea of 'even' is one player being 3-4 points higher? Winshares are so heavily on MJ's side I won't even waste the time to post them. Go back to basketball reference and check them out like you do for the rest of your 'knowledge'.

96 and 97 MJ is better, 98 leans Kawhi over MJ at the very tail end of his prime.

Fukk outta here babyboi with your vacuous arguments.

[NBAGOAT]

I have doubts about kawhi over 98 mj even. This was a coasting rs for him. Playoffs are great but mj has done similar during the 2nd 3peat(gotta account for league average with efficiency). Also in most comparisons, 98 and 87 mj are the only years I see people taking peak Kobe, wade, tmac over. Is kawhi now on their level or maybe better? I really don

[FKAri]

I have doubts about kawhi over 98 mj even. This was a coasting rs for him. Playoffs are great but mj has done similar during the 2nd 3peat(gotta account for league average with efficiency). Also in most comparisons, 98 and 87 mj are the only years I see people taking peak Kobe, wade, tmac over. Is kawhi now on their level or maybe better? I really don’t think so
He looks hobbled. He's playing better than any of those guys were when they looked as physically limited as he does now.

[NBAGOAT]

He looks hobbled. He's playing better than any of those guys were when they looked as physically limited as he does now.

he's a better shooter than all of them most likely. definitely not as explosive however even when healthy however

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]I have doubts about kawhi over 98 mj even. This was a coasting rs for him. Playoffs are great but mj has done similar during the 2nd 3peat(gotta account for league average with efficiency). Also in most comparisons, 98 and 87 mj are the only years I see people taking peak Kobe, wade, tmac over. Is kawhi now on their level or maybe better? I really don

[Manny98]

MJ was 30.4 58% TS in 96 and 29.6 on 57% TS in 97. Since when is 26.6 'around' 30 you inbreed? You also fail to account for it being easier to score in today's game, you'd have to be an outright fukking idiot to argue that the defensive rules don't encourage higher efficiency numbers. Then again context isn't something you'd have learned yet at this stage of elementary education.

Mike had slight edge in steals and assists. PER? 29.4 in 96/27.8 in 97 for Mike, 25.8 for Kawhi. Your idea of 'even' is one player being 3-4 points higher? Winshares are so heavily on MJ's side I won't even waste the time to post them. Go back to basketball reference and check them out like you do for the rest of your 'knowledge'.

96 and 97 MJ is better, 98 leans Kawhi over MJ at the very tail end of his prime.

Fukk outta here babyboi with your vacuous arguments.
I'm talking about the playoffs dipshit

Kawhi is currently averaging 31ppg off 62%TS with much better defense than 2nd 3 peat MJ

[NBAGOAT]

I do too, but the fact that we're even debating 98 MJ vs current Kawhi who's tearing up the playoffs( hobbled) should clue you in as to what any previous version of MJ would do. 88-93 Jordan? Please.

i still go back to playmaking for him and durant vs other peak wings like I mentioned like kobe, wade, tmac. The second group has an advantage there even though both have gotten better there. ik Kawhi and durant do have advantages over that group however in other facets of the game like shooting however.

Actual playmaking/creation is huge however. No one here views the game this way, myself included but there are arguments that elite playmaking lifts an offense as much as elite scoring.

[Phoenix]

I'm talking about the playoffs dipshit

Kawhi is currently averaging 31ppg off 62%TS with much better defense than 2nd 3 peat MJ

Did you mention playoffs in your first post fukking ass? No you didn't.

[Phoenix]

i still go back to playmaking for him and durant vs other peak wings like I mentioned like kobe, wade, tmac. The second group has an advantage there even though both have gotten better there. ik Kawhi and durant do have advantages over that group however in other facets of the game like shooting however.

Actual playmaking/creation is huge however. No one here views the game this way, myself included but there are arguments that elite playmaking lifts an offense as much as elite scoring.

Correct. Kawhi did show some playmaking potential and better overall passing than he's normally displayed to close out the last series.

[juju151111]

I'm talking about the playoffs dipshit

Kawhi is currently averaging 31ppg off 62%TS with much better defense than 2nd 3 peat MJ
Kawhi literally took 20 games rest while MJ at 33-35 was playing like 80 games. Also think Kawhi playing less minutes. He has more energy to play defense and even so Mj defense in 96 and 97 wasn't bad at all.

[superduper]

Kawhi is more slow and deliberate with his moves than MJ to make up for the lack of athleticism, relative to MJ. His reads are methodical. He has absolutely become a threat from anywhere on the floor on offense. Incredible to watch.

His defensive impact shouldn't even need to be mentioned it's so obvious and visible what he does for his team out there. Gets extra possessions constantly and straight up nullifies most if not all people in this league 95% of the time. Seeing the leader of your team maintain that level of defensive consistency elevates everyone else.

[paksat]

not nearly as smooth as MJ but still great

[LostCause]

I'm talking about the playoffs dipshit

Kawhi is currently averaging 31ppg off 62%TS with much better defense than 2nd 3 peat MJ

To be fair MJs defense was stellar too

Don

[red1]

he locks down the best player on the other team and carries your offense.


the only description I have for that is GODLY.

[Gougou]

His passing is not too great. Everything else is amazing.

[And1AllDay]

Kawhi is better than second 3 peat MJ lol

Take off your MJ c*cksucking binoculars for once in your life :lol

:oldlol: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Manny98]

I'm talking about the playoffs dipshit

Kawhi is currently averaging 31ppg off 62%TS with much better defense than 2nd 3 peat MJ
Phoenix can't refute this statement

He knows damm well Kawhi is currently playing at a level higher than second 3 peat MJ

MJ stans in denial like always

[Phoenix]

Phoenix can't refute this statement

He knows damm well Kawhi is currently playing at a level higher than second 3 peat MJ

MJ stans in denial like always

Awww, lil Manny needs to bump his own post so he can get attention. There, I just gave you 30 seconds. Now go brush your teeth, pack lunch and get ready for school. Unfortunately for you dipshit, I'm actually pretty damn close to stanning Kawhi this playoff run so I'm perfectly fine with the idea that he's playing better than 96-98 playoff MJ in some ways. Much more comfortable than you are watching Lebron move west and miss the playoffs, anyway :lol

[Phoenix]

To be fair MJs defense was stellar too

Don’t forget he completely shut down Miller for the entire 2nd half after Miller lit up Pippen/the other Bulls during the first. That was during Game 7. If I remember correctly there was only like 2 minutes or less where Jordan wasn’t on him for the rest of the game and Miller was held scoreless

Manny's so fukking stupid he jumped right to the 'bu bu but Kawhi's bettaaa' routine when all I did initially was break down some of their attributes.

In favor of Kawhi:

3point shooting
defense
handle

In favor of 2nd 3peat MJ:

Midrange
Athleticism/fluidity
passing
slashing
post game

I'm waiting for someone to tell me what about that is inaccurate. :confusedshrug:

[Manny98]

Kawhi wins in the mid-range/free throw shooting department as well

Shot comfortably above 50% from mid range the past two postseasons and 90% from the line

GOAT tier efficiency that Ordan could only dream of having :bowdown:

Kawhi is pretty much the perfect basketball player no wonder Jordan fanboys are shook :eek:

[Phoenix]

Kawhi wins in the mid-range/free throw shooting department as well

Shot comfortably above 50% from mid range the past two postseasons and 90% from the line

GOAT tier efficiency that Ordan could only dream of having :bowdown:

Kawhi is pretty much the perfect basketball player no wonder Jordan fanboys are shook :eek:

MJ was 49% midrange on 1500 attempts in 97. What's Kawhi's volume? Because simply putting down a percentage is meaningless.

Free Throws? Playoffs MJ was 82% on 10 attempts in 96, 83% on 8 attempts in 97. Kawhi this playoffs is 87% on 8 attempts. So he's, what, an extra made free throw better? :confusedshrug:

Kawhi operates in an easier defensive environment, equating to being able to score more efficiently. Prove me otherwise.

Shook? You're on suicide watch because the Lakers didn't make the playoffs :lol

I'll repeat:

In favor of Kawhi:

3point shooting
defense
handle

In favor of 2nd 3peat MJ:

Midrange
Athleticism/fluidity
passing
slashing
post game

I'm waiting for someone to tell me what about that is inaccurate. :confusedshrug:

Basketball fans appreciate what Kawhi is doing, regardless of how he compares to anyone else. Lil c*ckwanks like you have no clue what you're watching nor have an appreciation for the game in general. You're a Bron stan who exists to idolize him and not have anything else to offer in terms of basketball dialogue. Morning nap is coming, then crayon art 101 is next. Get off your fisher price phone and pay attention in class.

[Manny98]

In the playoffs

Kawhi - 51% from midrange off 7 attempts a game

MJ - 45% from midrange off 15 attempts a game

Kawhi - 89% free throw shooter

MJ - 82% free throw shooter

I don't want to hear no bullshit about volume, it's not like Kawhis efficiency is going to magically drop 5% if he attempts a couple more midrange jumpshots

I don't want to hear no shit about it being easier to score in this era either

Their is no actual concrete evidence of it so your wrong

And btw you were the one that started the MJ comparisons in this thread

"Diet coke version of MJ" lol your such a delusional moron :lol

[warriorfan]

In the playoffs

Kawhi - 51% from midrange off 7 attempts a game

MJ - 45% from midrange off 15 attempts a game

Kawhi - 89% free throw shooter

MJ - 82% free throw shooter

I don't want to hear no bullshit about volume, it's not like Kawhis efficiency is going to magically drop 5% if he attempts a couple more midrange jumpshots

I don't want to hear no shit about it being easier to score in this era either

Their is no actual concrete evidence of it so your wrong

And btw you were the one that started the MJ comparisons in this thread

"Diet coke version of MJ" lol your such a delusional moron :lol

Of course you don

[Phoenix]

In the playoffs

Kawhi - 51% from midrange off 7 attempts a game

MJ - 45% from midrange off 15 attempts a game

Kawhi - 89% free throw shooter

MJ - 82% free throw shooter

I don't want to hear no bullshit about volume, it's not like Kawhis efficiency is going to magically drop 5% if he attempts a couple more midrange jumpshots

I don't want to hear no shit about it being easier to score in this era either

Their is no actual concrete evidence of it so your wrong

And btw you were the one that started the MJ comparisons in this thread

"Diet coke version of MJ" lol your such a delusional moron :lol

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Shut up about context, I can't handle it!!!!!!!! -Manny98

45% on 15 attempts means MJ MADE about as many midrange shots as Kawhi TAKES!!! If MJ makes one more shot, at 15 attempts he's at > 50%. It's literally the difference between hitting 7/15 and 8/15. Stop it Phoenix, stop with throwing context into this!!!!!! :rant

Efficiency goes down the more you shoot, fukkface. You don't want to hear about volume? So someone who takes 100 shots and hits 45 is worse than someone who shoots 50 times and hits 25.

No evidence of being easier to score on the perimeter? So you mean your own eyes and brain can't comprehend that the court being spaced out to the 3point line means there's less defensive congestion in the mid-range area? That defenses packed in the paint to midrange area 20 years ago meant it was harder to get off good mid-range looks?

You're a fukking idiot and your dad should have jerked off the night you were conceived, or your mom play with that BBC dildo in her top drawer. Anything to spare the world from your useless existence.

Bulletproof started the MJ comparison sooooo....wrong again. :hammerhead:

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Of course you don

[Phoenix]

In favor of Kawhi:

3point shooting
defense
handle

In favor of 2nd 3peat MJ:

Midrange
Athleticism/fluidity
passing
slashing
post game


Still waiting cuckwank98.....

[Manny98]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Of course you don

[Phoenix]

Ok let me quickly destroy this stupid narrative...

If it was harder to score back in the day then why the f*ck is the pace,ppg, and leaguewide FG% higher back then than it is now?



2019 avg PPG 111.2
1996 avg PPG 99.5

Manny- PPG was higher back then

2019 avg pace 100.00
1996 avg pace 91.8

Manny- Pace was higher back then

2019 avg FG% 46.2
1996 avg FG% 46.1

Manny - :confusedshrug:

You can't even make this shit up.

[Manny98]

Example of MJ shredding up the Celtics defense with ease because no zones were allowed

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PowerfulAgitatedBlackbear-size_restricted.gif

[Phoenix]

Zones would have impacted everyone, so acting like incorporating the zone exclusively reduces MJ's dominance but doesn't also impact other players. :lol :hammerhead:

The best way to attack the zone would be off catch and shoots, shooting out of the triple threat, coming off screens, all things MJ had in his arsenal during his championship run. Someone like Tmac would have been neutralized more by a zone because he was more an on-ball isolation scorer which means it's easier for a zone to keep him in front. Tmac wasn't much of an off-ball scorer so yeah, he'd have been impacted. KG wouldn't have as much room to post around the elbow down and work his way into good midrange shot positioning so yep, he'd have been impacted too. Movement, being able to score off-ball, keeping the defense reacting instead of being able to zone up in front of a more stationary target, that's how you attack a zone.

Zones also means less responsibility on a player's individual defense so the tradeoff is MJ having more energy for offense because he doesn't have to pace himself as much for individual defense. Plus with the MJ/Pip/Grant doberman defense roaming about, very little would have changed in terms of results. They still win championships, and MJ still would have been the best player. :confusedshrug:

[Phoenix]

Example of James Harden isoing in today's 'advanced' spaced out defense:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MarriedReasonableBluebreastedkookaburra-size_restricted.gif

No way MJ scores under those conditions. :rolleyes:

[Manny98]

2019 average pace - 100.0
2019 average FG% - 46.2%


1989 average pace - 100.6
1989 average FG% - 47.7%


Phoenix "its easier to score today"

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Phoenix]

2019 avg PPG 111.2
1996 avg PPG 99.5

Manny- PPG was higher back then

2019 avg pace 100.00
1996 avg pace 91.8

Manny- Pace was higher back then

2019 avg FG% 46.2
1996 avg FG% 46.1

Manny - :confusedshrug:

You can't even make this shit up.

Manny's gonna moonwalk right on past this post. :lol

[Phoenix]

2019 average pace - 100.0
2019 average FG% - 46.2%


1989 average pace - 100.6
1989 average FG% - 47.7%


Phoenix "its easier to score today"

:roll: :roll: :roll:


2019 avg PPG 111.2
1996 avg PPG 99.5

Manny- PPG was higher back then

2019 avg pace 100.00
1996 avg pace 91.8

Manny- Pace was higher back then

2019 avg FG% 46.2
1996 avg FG% 46.1

Manny - :confusedshrug:


Manny: PPG and Pace were higher back then doe

[Phoenix]

In favor of Kawhi:

3point shooting
defense
handle

In favor of 2nd 3peat MJ:

Midrange
Athleticism/fluidity
passing
slashing
post game


Still waiting cuckwank98.....

Manny?

[Manny98]

Example of James Harden isoing in today's 'advanced' spaced out defense:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MarriedReasonableBluebreastedkookaburra-size_restricted.gif

No way MJ scores under those conditions. :rolleyes:
Except in MJs era he could literally do that the entire game and the defense could do f*ck all about it because zones were illegal

Where as today defenses are now able to adjust

Try again

[Phoenix]

Except in MJs era he could literally do that the entire game and the defense could do f*ck all about it because zones were illegal

Where as today defenses are now able to adjust

Try again

What adjustments do you see above? Once Harden beat his man he had a layup line to the rim. :confusedshrug:

Manny- next level defensive adjustment

[Manny98]

https://i.postimg.cc/J7955JYZ/Screenshot-20190528-143434.jpg


Imagine what the Kobe and KDs of the world would do in a era with no zones :eek:


https://media.giphy.com/media/NfiEWXSA1fVoQ/giphy.gif

[Phoenix]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif
The entire Pistons defense waiting at the rim

https://i.gifer.com/Lox7.gif
Beats his initial defender, X-man 'adjusts' and meets him at the rim

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2015/Gqsz_a.gif

Beats first 2 defenders, dunks over 3 others sliding over to project the rim( they didn't adjust back then doe)

We can cherrypick gifs all day to make any point we want to. :confusedshrug:

[Manny98]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ShamelessWebbedColt-size_restricted.gif

"Easier to score doe" :facepalm

[Phoenix]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ShamelessWebbedColt-size_restricted.gif

"Easier to score doe" :facepalm

Tmac shot at the same time the shader started moving over, meaning that was the shot he intended to take in that situation. It's not like the shader sealed off the driving lane THEN Tmac reacted by pulling up. He got the shot he wanted there. I just posted 3 gifs above where the paint was literally clogged, meaning you're either getting to a spot and shooting like gif 1, ACTUALLY adjusting to what the defense has taken away( driving lane), or having to athletically overpower the defense at the rim once he's created the driving lane like gif 2 or 3. So unfortunately you didn't prove your point nor disprove mine.

[Manny98]

Tmac shot at the same time the shader started moving over, meaning that was the shot he intended to take in that situation. It's not like the shader sealed off the driving lane THEN Tmac reacted by pulling up. He got the shot he wanted there. I just posted 3 gifs above where the paint was literally clogged, meaning you're either getting to a spot and shooting like gif 1, ACTUALLY adjusting to what the defense has taken away( driving lane), or having to athletically overpower the defense at the rim once he's created the driving lane like gif 2 or 3. So unfortunately you didn't prove your point nor disprove mine.
The point is he would have had a easy path to the basket if not for zones dipshit

[Phoenix]

The point is he would have had a easy path to the basket if not for zones dipshit

Tmac didn't go into his shot after the shader moved, meaning that was the shot he intended to take. It was an intentional drive right, two dribbles and a pull-up. You posted that gif to make a point that Tmac was forced into that shot because the lane was shut off, which is wrong you son of a c*ck. Sorry for all the Ls you're taking today :(

[Manny98]

Tmac didn't go into his shot after the shader moved, meaning that was the shot he intended to take. It was an intentional drive right, two dribbles and a pull-up. You posted that gif to make a point that Tmac was forced into that shot because the lane was shut off, which is wrong you son of a c*ck. Sorry for all the Ls you're taking today :(
It was intentional because he knew the shade would come dumbass

And the lane was shut off look at the center

[Manny98]

I have literally shown multiple examples of NBA superstars coming out and saying how zones made it harder to score with multiple gif examples and this retard is still trying to tell me i'm wrong :roll: :roll:

You can't make this up

[Phoenix]

:hammerhead:
It was intentional because he knew the shade would come dumbass

And the lane was shut off look at the center

Zones would have impacted everyone, so acting like incorporating the zone exclusively reduces MJ's dominance but doesn't also impact other players.

The best way to attack the zone would be off catch and shoots, shooting out of the triple threat, coming off screens, all things MJ had in his arsenal during his championship run. Someone like Tmac would have been neutralized more by a zone because he was more an on-ball isolation scorer which means it's easier for a zone to keep him in front. Tmac wasn't much of an off-ball scorer so yeah, he'd have been impacted. KG wouldn't have as much room to post around the elbow down and work his way into good midrange shot positioning so yep, he'd have been impacted too. Movement, being able to score off-ball, keeping the defense reacting instead of being able to zone up in front of a more stationary target, that's how you attack a zone.

Zones also means less responsibility on a player's individual defense so the tradeoff is MJ having more energy for offense because he doesn't have to pace himself as much for individual defense. Plus with the MJ/Pip/Grant doberman defense roaming about, very little would have changed in terms of results. They still win championships, and MJ still would have been the best player.

Still waiting for a response.

[Phoenix]

I have literally shown multiple examples of NBA superstars coming out and saying how zones made it harder to score with multiple gif examples and this retard is still trying to tell me i'm wrong :roll: :roll:

You can't make this up

Zones would have impacted everyone, so acting like incorporating the zone exclusively reduces MJ's dominance but doesn't also impact other players.

The best way to attack the zone would be off catch and shoots, shooting out of the triple threat, coming off screens, all things MJ had in his arsenal during his championship run. Someone like Tmac would have been neutralized more by a zone because he was more an on-ball isolation scorer which means it's easier for a zone to keep him in front. Tmac wasn't much of an off-ball scorer so yeah, he'd have been impacted. KG wouldn't have as much room to post around the elbow down and work his way into good midrange shot positioning so yep, he'd have been impacted too. Movement, being able to score off-ball, keeping the defense reacting instead of being able to zone up in front of a more stationary target, that's how you attack a zone.

Zones also means less responsibility on a player's individual defense so the tradeoff is MJ having more energy for offense because he doesn't have to pace himself as much for individual defense. Plus with the MJ/Pip/Grant doberman defense roaming about, very little would have changed in terms of results. They still win championships, and MJ still would have been the best player.


Retort :confusedshrug: Or are you resigned to finding other peoples opinions because you lack the ability to provide your own beyond vacuous one line takes?

[Phoenix]

I've just shown multiple examples of MJ having to adjust to packed in paints, and this fukking clown is still trying to tell me I'm wrong :roll: :roll:

You can't make this up

[superduper]

Of couse this thread that was fine with discussion for a page and a half gets completely ruined and derailed by Manny's troll agenda driven ass :facepalm

[Manny98]

When did i say zones only reduce MJ's dominance?

It makes it harder for every single player especially big men, hence every superstar crying about it in 2002 and wanting it removed

MJ would still get his regardless, players adjust ect. But it's not easier to score today just accept it.

Your hero is not averaging close to 45ppg in todays era

[Phoenix]

When did i say zones only reduce MJ's dominance?

It makes it harder for every single player especially big men, hence every superstar crying about it in 2002 and wanting it removed

MJ would still get his regardless, players adjust ect. But it's not easier to score today just accept it.

Your hero is not averaging close to 45ppg in todays era

The point is if zones were implemented you have to look at whos games had the ability to actually adjust and still maintain their dominance/greatness. It's not enough to simply say 'bu bu bu zones' with respects to MJ when you're too ignorant to actually speak to how to attack a zone, and who is best equipped to do so. Coming now after the fact and saying 'when did I say zones only reduce MJs' dominance' in the big picture means it's an irrelevant point to make.

Furthermore, defensive 3 second rules mean a team can only dip into a full zone on occasion, it's not a defense anyone employs for 48 minutes. Shooting is generally too good for a zone to be as effective at the pro level than the collegiate who( asides from the NBA caliber players) don't have the requisite team shooting. There's barely any rim protection now ,also integral to a proper zone, because 3point shooting has spaced out the defense. The NBA will never allow proper zones because they want increased scoring, and they've been sliding in all kinds of rules the past 15 years to open up the game and decrease the ability of the offensive player to be impeded, hence being easier to score. It's not hard to add 1 and 1....

[Phoenix]

Of couse this thread that was fine with discussion for a page and a half gets completely ruined and derailed by Manny's troll agenda driven ass :facepalm

As I said, the only thing I did in my first post was break down their respective attributes. Saying Kawhi was 'diet coke' MJ was mainly saying he has 'some' of MJ's attributes and has improved on others, while lacking in some categories. But as you know, Manny can't argue on any level beyond random quotes and pulling stats off a page. So it can't just be a level-handed, nuanced discussion, it has to descend into this bullshit.

Hell, you got a fukking rookie saying it's easier to score in the NBA than in Europe, since we're dropping other player's quotes:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/02/10/luka-doncic-says-scoring-nba-is-easier-than-europe/?utm_term=.c93edbf87b0b

Doncic attributed the scoring boost to some of the rules that make the NBA game more offense-friendly, but also to the larger court in American basketball. The NBA uses courts that are 94 feet by 50 feet, or 4,700 square feet. European teams play on FIBA-regulation courts that are 91.86 feet by 49.21 feet or 4,520.43 square feet.

And those extra 180 square feet really makes a difference, Doncic said.

“Here [in the NBA] it’s easier to score compared to Europe, of course,” he said. “In Europe, the court is smaller, and here there is the [defensive] three seconds rule. I think it’s easier to score here.”

[Manny98]

The point is if zones were implemented you have to look at whos games had the ability to actually adjust and still maintain their dominance/greatness. It's not enough to simply say 'bu bu bu zones' with respects to MJ when you're too ignorant to actually speak to how to attack a zone, and who is best equipped to do so. Coming now after the fact and saying 'when did I say zones only reduce MJs' dominance' in the big picture means it's an irrelevant point to make.

Furthermore, defensive 3 second rules mean a team can only dip into a full zone on occasion, it's not a defense anyone employs for 48 minutes. Shooting is generally too good for a zone to be as effective at the pro level than the collegiate who( asides from the NBA caliber players) don't have the requisite team shooting. There's barely any rim protection now ,also integral to a proper zone, because 3point shooting has spaced out the defense. The NBA will never allow proper zones because they want increased scoring, and they've been sliding in all kinds of rules the past 15 years to open up the game and decrease the ability of the offensive player to be impeded, hence being easier to score. It's not hard to add 1 and 1....
Ok since according to you it's so much easier to score today

Lets take Dominique Wilkins a player that averaged 30ppg back in the day

How much do you think he could average today

35? 40? What are your thoughts Mr Phoenix :confusedshrug:

[Phoenix]

Ok since according to you it's so much easier to score today

Lets take Dominique Wilkins a player that averaged 30ppg back in the day

How much do you think he could average today

35? 40? What are your thoughts Mr Phoenix :confusedshrug:

According to me? You got a chubby 20 year old 'unathletic white boy' whose the best rookie to enter the league in some time tell you it's easier to score in the NBA than in Europe. Something wrong with his opinion through his own experience playing in this era?

I don't care about what hypothetical player X would score in 2019, so I'll stick this up again for your convenience:

Zones would have impacted everyone, so acting like incorporating the zone exclusively reduces MJ's dominance but doesn't also impact other players.

The best way to attack the zone would be off catch and shoots, shooting out of the triple threat, coming off screens, all things MJ had in his arsenal during his championship run. Someone like Tmac would have been neutralized more by a zone because he was more an on-ball isolation scorer which means it's easier for a zone to keep him in front. Tmac wasn't much of an off-ball scorer so yeah, he'd have been impacted. KG wouldn't have as much room to post around the elbow down and work his way into good midrange shot positioning so yep, he'd have been impacted too. Movement, being able to score off-ball, keeping the defense reacting instead of being able to zone up in front of a more stationary target, that's how you attack a zone.

Zones also means less responsibility on a player's individual defense so the tradeoff is MJ having more energy for offense because he doesn't have to pace himself as much for individual defense. Plus with the MJ/Pip/Grant doberman defense roaming about, very little would have changed in terms of results. They still win championships, and MJ still would have been the best player.

Answer that with more than player opinions and stats off nba.com. You're not capable of engaging in a meaningful discourse so there's no reason to humor your little hypothetical scenarios.

[LostCause]

Zones have been played in the NBA for decades. Plenty of teams were KNOWN for playing “illegal zones” throughout the 80s and 90s. Players have always known how to beat zones, too. Jordan didn’t suddenly become a 22ppg scorer against teams running zones

The quote someone posted by Doncic is important. He cites Defensive 3 seconds as a big reason why it’s easier to score in the NBA. Know what the other name for Def 3 seconds is? Illegal Defense. Def 3 seconds contradict a true zone being played, which is obviously something the NBA doesn’t want as it means big men would just camp the paint without limit, stopping all drives.

All these defensive concepts you see and hear about today aren’t new. Shading, switching, trapping etc. All has been going on for ages. You guys have to expand your knowledge of the history of the game past a few agenda driven YouTube clip compilations.

Here’s an article FROM THE 80s speaking about defense specifically in the 80s
https://www.si.com/vault/1985/10/28/628680/give-the-dan-a-plus

Here's an important bit from it:


And the NBA has another defensive problem. Ironically, while many of the uninitiated believe the NBA plays no D, many of the initiated believe it plays too much. Too much team defense, too much switching, too much pressing, too much half-court trapping, too much double-teaming. Too much, in short, of what most people call "zone." Bite your tongue. The NBA rule book does not acknowledge the word zone. In its stead is something called "illegal defense."

The fact is, everyone in the NBA plays zone to one degree or another. (With the possible exception of George Gervin, who plays neither zone nor man-to-man.) "A perfectly relevant question at this point," says Bob Ryan, the veteran basketball observer of The Boston Globe, "is, does anyone in the NBA play man-to-man?"

Ryan is only half kidding. A set of illegal defensive guidelines that (theoretically) eliminates the zone takes up nine pages of the 60-page NBA official's manual but still confuses spectators all the time—and coaches and players most of the time, not to mention the refs. Darell Garretson, the NBA's chief of officials, doubts that either Dallas's Dick Motta or San Antonio's Cotton Fitzsimmons fully understands the guidelines, which would not be so bad except that they (along with Milwaukee's Nelson) created them. Pete Newell, Golden State's director of player personnel and one of the most respected minds in the business, says, "There are a lot of people who don't understand the guidelines, and some of them wear whistles."

And then this part as well:


Simple enough (or maybe it isn't), but all sorts of conundrums can develop for two reasons: First, guidelines do not apply when the ball has not passed mid-court (i.e., when it's in the offensive team's backcourt), and second, there are no restrictions against "trapping" or double-teaming the player with the ball, except that the trap must be "aggressive." But when is a trap not a zone? Obviously, when two or more defenders set off in pursuit of the ball, the remaining ones have to pick up loose men, creating a "rotation" that is difficult to monitor.

The Knicks under Hubie Brown constantly press full-court, often with a 1-3-1 zone. "After a made free throw or field goal," says guard Darrell Walker, "we're coming after you." They start it near the end line just after the opposition has taken the ball out of bounds—perfectly legal—and they attempt to force the ball to one outside alley or the other and double-team it in a corner of the court, which is also perfectly legal. It is a zone, pure and simple, but the kind of zone that the rules allow. It was so slick that last season it brought the Knicks the league lead in illegal defenses with 90. Watch complaints about the legality of Hubie's press soar this year when Ewing starts "rotating."

Milwaukee, arguably the best defensive team in the league last season, seems to draw the most fire about its tactics. In Nelson's system defenders switch every time offensive players cross—or anytime a potential pick is set. (Sound familiar?) At all times the Bucks' strategy is to keep their own big men under the basket. Golden State coach John Bach says the Cavs and Celtics are two other teams expert in using partial zone on a switch.

Systems aside, there are teams that rely upon "team defenders." When someone calls an opponent a team defender, he means: "That s.o.b. plays zone 90 percent of the time." The leading team defender, by acclamation, is Larry Bird, who on a remarkable number of occasions has been seen drawing offensive fouls and just plain getting in the way of players who aren't his to guard. Ironically, the cover of this year's official NBA Guide is a perfect illustration—Michael Jordan, openmouthed, is driving to the basket and there is Bird underneath on defense, even though Bird would almost never have the responsibility for checking a speedster like Jordan.

Bird plays smart, and smart players test the limits of rules. Abdul-Jabbar has done it for years. Bird has everything about the guidelines figured out, including the fact that because the game moves so swiftly and it is impossible for anyone on the floor to watch the entire court, officials are disinclined to call illegal defenses more than once or twice a game

If you read the article, you see why the league is as it is today as well. Pretty good read overall

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=LostCause]Zones have been played in the NBA for decades. Plenty of teams were KNOWN for playing

[NBAGOAT]

i never thought zones were that big a deal. Dallas is the big modern team off the top of my head that used it quite a bit. Letting guys shade towards a star while not "hard doubling" isnt insignificant however. Why Don Nelson experimented with putting centers who couldnt shoot at the 3pt line, just to open up the lane for his guards. Thibs ice defense would possibly be illegal too under old rules(it was borderline with the new ones with the big guys staying in the paint as long as possible)

as 3ball likes to say however, modern spacing mitigates some of that however. you cant stray too far from a center because some of them can shoot now. I think you're not allowed to double a guy without the ball too however. defenses do that once in awhile if they really dont want a star getting the ball(think the curry college game where he barely scored because they doubled him at all times).

Unsurprisingly both dont get called much more than like a couple times a game and are missed often however

[FKAri]

i never thought zones were that big a deal. Dallas is the big modern team off the top of my head that used it quite a bit. Letting guys shade towards a star while not "hard doubling" isnt insignificant however. Why Don Nelson experimented with putting centers who couldnt shoot at the 3pt line, just to open up the lane for his guards. Thibs ice defense would possibly be illegal too under old rules(it was borderline with the new ones with the big guys staying in the paint as long as possible)

as 3ball likes to say however, modern spacing mitigates some of that however. you cant stray too far from a center because some of them can shoot now. I think you're not allowed to double a guy without the ball too however. defenses do that once in awhile if they really dont want a star getting the ball(think the curry college game where he barely scored because they doubled him at all times).

Unsurprisingly both dont get called much more than like a couple times a game and are missed often however
It's very difficult to compare past era defenses to modern ones. It's one thing to read the rule book for each era. It's a complete other thing to consider how they were actually implemented. The NBA never goes by its own book. imo, a few things can be said for certain.

There is more flexibility to implement a full Zone today than before the rule changes. You couldn't get away with the extent that you can implement it today. That gives the defense more options and gives the defense more power. The Charles Barkley rule and the 3 in the key rule further strengthen defenses. At the same time there is less physicality on the perimeter. It is much easier to get into the paint than ever before. There is also more attention given to contact in the paint as well as the assessing of flagrants which means there are less hard hits in the paint and players are less weary of getting into it.

How does it all weigh out? I don't think anyone of us can know. We have to leave it to the players(who are ofcourse biased like that Kobe quote showed) who have played through it. Maybe coaches who have been in the league through multiple eras could comment but I haven't heard anything definitive from them. All in all it requires an unbiased historian style analysis which no one with enough clout has cared to do.

[NBAGOAT]

It's very difficult to compare past era defenses to modern ones. It's one thing to read the rule book for each era. It's a complete other thing to consider how they were actually implemented. The NBA never goes by its own book. imo, a few things can be said for certain.

There is more flexibility to implement a full Zone today than before the rule changes. You couldn't get away with the extent that you can implement it today. That gives the defense more options and gives the defense more power. The Charles Barkley rule and the 3 in the key rule further strengthen defenses. At the same time there is less physicality on the perimeter. It is much easier to get into the paint than ever before. There is also more attention given to contact in the paint as well as the assessing of flagrants which means there are less hard hits in the paint and players are less weary of getting into it.

How does it all weigh out? I don't think anyone of us can know. We have to leave it to the players(who are ofcourse biased like that Kobe quote showed) who have played through it. Maybe coaches who have been in the league through multiple eras could comment but I haven't heard anything definitive from them. All in all it requires an unbiased historian style analysis which no one with enough clout has cared to do.

yea i notice the nba is never too great at enforcing them. Nurse complained a lot last series about brook and 3 in key too. I guess we'll just continue to argue about it on forums.

[Manny98]

According to me? You got a chubby 20 year old 'unathletic white boy' whose the best rookie to enter the league in some time tell you it's easier to score in the NBA than in Europe. Something wrong with his opinion through his own experience playing in this era?

I don't care about what hypothetical player X would score in 2019, so I'll stick this up again for your convenience:

Zones would have impacted everyone, so acting like incorporating the zone exclusively reduces MJ's dominance but doesn't also impact other players.

The best way to attack the zone would be off catch and shoots, shooting out of the triple threat, coming off screens, all things MJ had in his arsenal during his championship run. Someone like Tmac would have been neutralized more by a zone because he was more an on-ball isolation scorer which means it's easier for a zone to keep him in front. Tmac wasn't much of an off-ball scorer so yeah, he'd have been impacted. KG wouldn't have as much room to post around the elbow down and work his way into good midrange shot positioning so yep, he'd have been impacted too. Movement, being able to score off-ball, keeping the defense reacting instead of being able to zone up in front of a more stationary target, that's how you attack a zone.

Zones also means less responsibility on a player's individual defense so the tradeoff is MJ having more energy for offense because he doesn't have to pace himself as much for individual defense. Plus with the MJ/Pip/Grant doberman defense roaming about, very little would have changed in terms of results. They still win championships, and MJ still would have been the best player.

Answer that with more than player opinions and stats off nba.com. You're not capable of engaging in a meaningful discourse so there's no reason to humor your little hypothetical scenarios.
Answer the question bitch, stop deflecting

Your the one blabbering about how it's so easy to score in todays era so surely someone who averaged 30 PPG in the 90s should be able to easily get 35-40 PPG in todays league amiright :confusedshrug:

[Phoenix]

Answer the question bitch, stop deflecting

Your the one blabbering about how it's so easy to score in todays era so surely someone who averaged 30 PPG in the 90s should be able to easily get 35-40 PPG in todays league amiright :confusedshrug:

Zones would have impacted everyone, so acting like incorporating the zone exclusively reduces MJ's dominance but doesn't also impact other players.

The best way to attack the zone would be off catch and shoots, shooting out of the triple threat, coming off screens, all things MJ had in his arsenal during his championship run. Someone like Tmac would have been neutralized more by a zone because he was more an on-ball isolation scorer which means it's easier for a zone to keep him in front. Tmac wasn't much of an off-ball scorer so yeah, he'd have been impacted. KG wouldn't have as much room to post around the elbow down and work his way into good midrange shot positioning so yep, he'd have been impacted too. Movement, being able to score off-ball, keeping the defense reacting instead of being able to zone up in front of a more stationary target, that's how you attack a zone.

Zones also means less responsibility on a player's individual defense so the tradeoff is MJ having more energy for offense because he doesn't have to pace himself as much for individual defense. Plus with the MJ/Pip/Grant doberman defense roaming about, very little would have changed in terms of results. They still win championships, and MJ still would have been the best player.


Respond to that properly, then I'll answer you.....bitch. Deflecting from my question by accusing me of doing so is rather transparent. I made this post first, you have yet to reply to it properly. When you do, I'll humor your question about what Dominique would score today. Until then, fukk off. :confusedshrug:

[Manny98]

[QUOTE=LostCause]Zones have been played in the NBA for decades. Plenty of teams were KNOWN for playing

[Manny98]

Zones would have impacted everyone, so acting like incorporating the zone exclusively reduces MJ's dominance but doesn't also impact other players.

The best way to attack the zone would be off catch and shoots, shooting out of the triple threat, coming off screens, all things MJ had in his arsenal during his championship run. Someone like Tmac would have been neutralized more by a zone because he was more an on-ball isolation scorer which means it's easier for a zone to keep him in front. Tmac wasn't much of an off-ball scorer so yeah, he'd have been impacted. KG wouldn't have as much room to post around the elbow down and work his way into good midrange shot positioning so yep, he'd have been impacted too. Movement, being able to score off-ball, keeping the defense reacting instead of being able to zone up in front of a more stationary target, that's how you attack a zone.

Zones also means less responsibility on a player's individual defense so the tradeoff is MJ having more energy for offense because he doesn't have to pace himself as much for individual defense. Plus with the MJ/Pip/Grant doberman defense roaming about, very little would have changed in terms of results. They still win championships, and MJ still would have been the best player.


Respond to that properly, then I'll answer you.....bitch. Deflecting from my question by accusing me of doing so is rather transparent. I made this post first, you have yet to reply to it properly. When you do, I'll humor your question about what Dominique would score today. Until then, fukk off. :confusedshrug:
Here


When did i say zones only reduce MJ's dominance?

It makes it harder for every single player especially big men, hence every superstar crying about it in 2002 and wanting it removed

MJ would still get his regardless, players adjust ect. But it's not easier to score today just accept it.

Your hero is not averaging close to 45ppg in todays era

Now stop dancing around and answer my question.... Bitch

[Phoenix]

Here



Now stop dancing around and answer my question.... Bitch

That doesn't even remotely address my post. Try again....bitch.

[Manny98]

You know you're shook when you can't answer a simple question :roll: :roll:

[Phoenix]

You know you're shook when you can't answer a simple question :roll: :roll:
Zones would have impacted everyone, so acting like incorporating the zone exclusively reduces MJ's dominance but doesn't also impact other players.

The best way to attack the zone would be off catch and shoots, shooting out of the triple threat, coming off screens, all things MJ had in his arsenal during his championship run. Someone like Tmac would have been neutralized more by a zone because he was more an on-ball isolation scorer which means it's easier for a zone to keep him in front. Tmac wasn't much of an off-ball scorer so yeah, he'd have been impacted. KG wouldn't have as much room to post around the elbow down and work his way into good midrange shot positioning so yep, he'd have been impacted too. Movement, being able to score off-ball, keeping the defense reacting instead of being able to zone up in front of a more stationary target, that's how you attack a zone.

Zones also means less responsibility on a player's individual defense so the tradeoff is MJ having more energy for offense because he doesn't have to pace himself as much for individual defense. Plus with the MJ/Pip/Grant doberman defense roaming about, very little would have changed in terms of results. They still win championships, and MJ still would have been the best player.

Tick tock...

[juju151111]

At the time, Popovich had this to say when asked about the next step in Leonard's evolution:

[FKAri]

[QUOTE=juju151111]At the time, Popovich had this to say when asked about the next step in Leonard's evolution:

[Manny98]

Ok since according to you it's so much easier to score today

Lets take Dominique Wilkins a player that averaged 30ppg back in the day

How much do you think he could average today

35? 40? What are your thoughts Mr Phoenix :confusedshrug:
Still waiting babyboi

[Phoenix]

Still waiting babyboi

Zones would have impacted everyone, so acting like incorporating the zone exclusively reduces MJ's dominance but doesn't also impact other players.

The best way to attack the zone would be off catch and shoots, shooting out of the triple threat, coming off screens, all things MJ had in his arsenal during his championship run. Someone like Tmac would have been neutralized more by a zone because he was more an on-ball isolation scorer which means it's easier for a zone to keep him in front. Tmac wasn't much of an off-ball scorer so yeah, he'd have been impacted. KG wouldn't have as much room to post around the elbow down and work his way into good midrange shot positioning so yep, he'd have been impacted too. Movement, being able to score off-ball, keeping the defense reacting instead of being able to zone up in front of a more stationary target, that's how you attack a zone.

Zones also means less responsibility on a player's individual defense so the tradeoff is MJ having more energy for offense because he doesn't have to pace himself as much for individual defense. Plus with the MJ/Pip/Grant doberman defense roaming about, very little would have changed in terms of results. They still win championships, and MJ still would have been the best player.

[Manny98]

I see Phoenix has waved the white flag

Poor guy got decimated in this thread :oldlol:

I'll go easy next time big guy :cheers:

[Phoenix]

I see Phoenix has waved the white flag

Poor guy got decimated in this thread :oldlol:

I'll go easy next time big guy :cheers:

Zones would have impacted everyone, so acting like incorporating the zone exclusively reduces MJ's dominance but doesn't also impact other players.

The best way to attack the zone would be off catch and shoots, shooting out of the triple threat, coming off screens, all things MJ had in his arsenal during his championship run. Someone like Tmac would have been neutralized more by a zone because he was more an on-ball isolation scorer which means it's easier for a zone to keep him in front. Tmac wasn't much of an off-ball scorer so yeah, he'd have been impacted. KG wouldn't have as much room to post around the elbow down and work his way into good midrange shot positioning so yep, he'd have been impacted too. Movement, being able to score off-ball, keeping the defense reacting instead of being able to zone up in front of a more stationary target, that's how you attack a zone.

Zones also means less responsibility on a player's individual defense so the tradeoff is MJ having more energy for offense because he doesn't have to pace himself as much for individual defense. Plus with the MJ/Pip/Grant doberman defense roaming about, very little would have changed in terms of results. They still win championships, and MJ still would have been the best player.

All day champ..... you're the most useless poster on the forum. Quite the achievement with Simon and his band of merry fakkit alts shitting up the place

[Manny98]

Zones would have impacted everyone, so acting like incorporating the zone exclusively reduces MJ's dominance but doesn't also impact other players.

The best way to attack the zone would be off catch and shoots, shooting out of the triple threat, coming off screens, all things MJ had in his arsenal during his championship run. Someone like Tmac would have been neutralized more by a zone because he was more an on-ball isolation scorer which means it's easier for a zone to keep him in front. Tmac wasn't much of an off-ball scorer so yeah, he'd have been impacted. KG wouldn't have as much room to post around the elbow down and work his way into good midrange shot positioning so yep, he'd have been impacted too. Movement, being able to score off-ball, keeping the defense reacting instead of being able to zone up in front of a more stationary target, that's how you attack a zone.

Zones also means less responsibility on a player's individual defense so the tradeoff is MJ having more energy for offense because he doesn't have to pace himself as much for individual defense. Plus with the MJ/Pip/Grant doberman defense roaming about, very little would have changed in terms of results. They still win championships, and MJ still would have been the best player.

All day champ..... you're the most useless poster on the forum. Quite the achievement with Simon and his band of merry fakkit alts shitting up the place
I don't know why you keep on posting this gibberish

I never said zones exclusively effect MJ, i'm talking about in general. LeBron for example struggled massively against Dallas zone defense in 2011

If that series was played in the 90s the Heat would have won because Dallas wouldn't be able to play that type of defense as it would have been illegal

And i have previously said in this thread that MJ and other 90s superstars would have adjusted their games to the new rules so their level of play would remain more or less the same

I don't get the point your even trying to make tbh :confusedshrug:

[Phoenix]

I don't know why you keep on posting this gibberish



A query that could be asked of 99% of your posts. Why would you bother making a point about zones to begin with if you're now backpedaling to say the greats would have found a way around it? For once post with some fukking intellectual honesty.....

[E_Stamkos]

Answer the question bitch, stop deflecting

Your the one blabbering about how it's so easy to score in todays era so surely someone who averaged 30 PPG in the 90s should be able to easily get 35-40 PPG in todays league amiright :confusedshrug:

Bitch... Dipshit... Dumbass... Moron

I love how this chubby Filipino midget is incapable of engaging in an intelligent debate without talking shit. You're not hard bro... Nobody's buying your shtick

I would legit piss in your face while your mother suck's down on my bootyhole and you wouldn't do shit but take it.

[Manny98]

A query that could be asked of 99% of your posts. Why would you bother making a point about zones to begin with if you're now backpedaling to say the greats would have found a way around it? For once post with some fukking intellectual honesty.....
Again show me where i said MJ would be worse in this era

All i said is that it's not EASIER to score in this era

You understand retard?

[Manny98]

Bitch... Dipshit... Dumbass... Moron

I love how this chubby Filipino midget is incapable of engaging in an intelligent debate without talking shit. You're not hard bro... Nobody's buying your shtick

I would legit piss in your face while your mother suck's down on my bootyhole and you wouldn't do shit but take it.
You wouldn't do shit if you ever saw me bitchboy :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

Again show me where i said MJ would be worse in this era

All i said is that it's not EASIER to score in this era

You understand retard?

Phoenix: It's easier to score in today's era

Manny: No it's not, what about ZONES!!!!!Z O N E Z!!! :rant :rant

Phoenix and LostCause: *zone retort*

Manny: SIKE. It wouldn't have greatly affected the past greats, I just raised it for shits and giggles. Now answer my irrelevant question about how much an 80's great would score today because hypotheticals are FUN!!!


That's the crux of what's transpired. And you're talking out of your ass. When you had no means to actually counteract the zones discussion with anything remotely intelligent, you now want to moonwalk out of whatever reason you had to bring it up in the first place.

You understand retard?

[Manny98]

Your putting words in my mouth..

Anyways i posted vids,multiple gifs, got quotes from multiple players saying that zones made it harder to score

You can't refute my raw evidence because it's 100% factual

I win again

Anything else Mr Phoenix?

[Phoenix]

Your putting words in my mouth..

Anyways i posted vids,multiple gifs, got quotes from multiple players saying that zones made it harder to score

You can't refute my raw evidence because it's 100% factual

I win again

Anything else Mr Phoenix?

No I didn't, what you have to say goes back half a dozen pages. My little scenario is the crux of your entire dialogue.

The whole zones thing is overblown. In the strictest sense, the defensive 3 second rule( which a chubby nonathletic euro says makes it easy to score compared to Europe on the topic of using player quotes as evidence), spaced out court and lack of paint protection in the NBA are anti-thesis to a true zone. Defense is compromised by spaced out courts, not helped by it. Offensive rebound rules where the shotclock resets at 15 instead of 24 is intended to increase pace and scoring opportunities. You had players demonstrably playing defense with their hands behind their backs to symbolize that the rules HURT their ability to defend, not enhance. If you equate that to mean it's 'harder' to score today, you're more of a moron than I give you credit for.

Anything else Mr. C*ckwank?

[stalkerforlife]

Poor Manny.

[E_Stamkos]

Wait, I actually bothered to read some of what is being debated here...

Is this little turd stain really trying to contend that scoring is more tasking in the current era??????


LOL

[Elosha]

Manny98, you really have gotten your ass handed to you. Bow out of this thread, save yourself a little dignity. Phoenix is running circles around you.

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle. :cheers:

[Manny98]

Manny98, you really have gotten your ass handed to you. Bow out of this thread, save yourself a little dignity. Phoenix is running circles around you.

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle. :cheers:
He isn't handing shit

He hasn't adressed barely any of my points and is ducking the questions i asked

[Manny98]

Wait, I actually bothered to read some of what is being debated here...

Is this little turd stain really trying to contend that scoring is more tasking in the current era??????


LOL

Ok let me quickly destroy this stupid narrative...

If it was harder to score back in the day then why the f*ck is the pace,ppg, and leaguewide FG% higher back then than it is now?

Do you retards realize legalizing zones made it harder for players to score lol MJ,KG and others literally said so themselves

It was so easy to iso all game because you were not allowed to help off so it was 90% just 1 on 1 the whole game

Yes removing hand checking made it easier for perimeter players to score but the legalization of zones made it harder

Watch this and educate yourself :applause:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM_eCnTNt1Q
Educate yourself :cheers:

[Phoenix]

He isn't handing shit

He hasn't adressed barely any of my points and is ducking the questions i asked

Oh yes, the key to the entire debate.... what would Dominique Wilkins average today :oldlol:

You're like the shit stain that just won't go away no matter how often you flush. You lost, badly, and lack the grace to bow out with some dignity. Tragic :(

I dub thee shitstain98, congrats on your promotion from cuckwank :cheers:

[Manny98]

Phoenix: it's way easier for players to score today.

Manny: *shows multiple gifs,vids and quotes from NBA players saying zones made it harder to score*

Phoenix:*Starts spamming paragraphs that fail to make any real point or refute any of the points that i've made*

Manny: asks a simple question regarding how a player from the 90s would do today since according to retard "it's easier to score today"

Phoenix: *Dances around the question and continues to spam random bullshit* :facepalm

[Phoenix]

Luka, chubby euro - 'the rules make it easier to score. I score easier in Europe than the NBA'

Shitstain98- *fingers in ears* it's harder to score now, screw what the rookie of the year says. I made a point about zones without understanding any context behind it, so I'll now turn around and say I never intended to mean it impacts the greats after my shit got puched in. Now answer me this hypothetical who what player X would score now that can't proven and is ultimately irrelevant!!!!!! :rant :rant :rant

[Phoenix]

:hammerhead:

Zones would have impacted everyone, so acting like incorporating the zone exclusively reduces MJ's dominance but doesn't also impact other players.

The best way to attack the zone would be off catch and shoots, shooting out of the triple threat, coming off screens, all things MJ had in his arsenal during his championship run. Someone like Tmac would have been neutralized more by a zone because he was more an on-ball isolation scorer which means it's easier for a zone to keep him in front. Tmac wasn't much of an off-ball scorer so yeah, he'd have been impacted. KG wouldn't have as much room to post around the elbow down and work his way into good midrange shot positioning so yep, he'd have been impacted too. Movement, being able to score off-ball, keeping the defense reacting instead of being able to zone up in front of a more stationary target, that's how you attack a zone.

Zones also means less responsibility on a player's individual defense so the tradeoff is MJ having more energy for offense because he doesn't have to pace himself as much for individual defense. Plus with the MJ/Pip/Grant doberman defense roaming about, very little would have changed in terms of results. They still win championships, and MJ still would have been the best player.

Still waiting for a response.

Shitstain?

[Manny98]

Luka, chubby euro - 'the rules make it easier to score. I score easier in Europe than the NBA'

Shitstain98- *fingers in ears* it's harder to score now, screw what the rookie of the year says. I made a point about zones without understanding any context behind it, so I'll now turn around and say I never intended to mean it impacts the greats after my shit got puched in. Now answer me this hypothetical who what player X would score now that can't proven and is ultimately irrelevant!!!!!! :rant :rant :rant
Idgaf about Euroleague dipshit, we are comparing current NBA to 80s/90s NBA :facepalm

[Phoenix]

Idgaf about Euroleague dipshit, we are comparing current NBA to 80s/90s NBA :facepalm

I don't give a fukk about the opinion of a modern star saying it's easy to score!! :rant :rant

Also, I don't give a shit about volume either!!!! :rant

Oh and zones, something something zones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rant :rant

Shitstain98 ladies and gentleman.

[Phoenix]

Kobe Bryant on rules making it easier for less skilled players to succeed:

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - NBA officiating has become too strict and is robbing the game of its physicality, helping less skilled players succeed while disrupting the flow of contests, five-time champion Kobe Bryant said on Wednesday.

Rule changes like the outlawing in 2004 of hand checking, where a defender uses his hands to control the movement of the player with the ball, had led to a less exciting game too often interrupted by a referee's whistle, said Bryant.

"It's more enjoyable if there's a certain level of physicality," the 39-year-old Bryant, who retired in 2016 after 20 seasons with the Los Angeles Lakers, told reporters.

"It's more competitive, you get to see players go mano-a-mano a little bit as opposed to, 'oh my god, he put a hand on me, it's a foul'. That's got to go," he said.

"I feel like European basketball is more physical than the NBA is right now."

He said he would like to see hand checking and other more physical forms of defense reintroduced so players would have to work harder for open shots.

"It challenges players to improve their skill level because now if you can hand check and things like that, you really must be fundamentally sound," he said.

"You must be able to handle the ball to be able to get past defenders."

The elimination of hand checking empowered smaller players and has led to a shift where the point guard, as opposed to the towering center standing near the basket, is frequently the most important player.

Bryant's comments came on the last day of an NBA regular season where tensions between players and referees have been at an all-time high, with many of the league's top athletes criticizing officials for being too involved.

Bryant said he understood that referees had a difficult job but said the league would improve if it selected and trained good people.

"You have younger officials coming in. Some want to do the work, some don't want to do the work. It's just like anything else," he said.

"When officials are doing their job at the highest level, you never mention their name once in a broadcast," he said.

"That should be every official's goal."

The NBA playoffs tip off on April 14.


https://sports.yahoo.com/flurry-fouls-hurting-nba-bryant-234422820--nba.html




Shitstain98: IDGAF about Kobe Bryant's opinion!!:rant :rant

Oh wait...


https://i.postimg.cc/J7955JYZ/Screenshot-20190528-143434.jpg


Imagine what the Kobe and KDs of the world would do in a era with no zones :eek:


https://media.giphy.com/media/NfiEWXSA1fVoQ/giphy.gif

[Manny98]

DonShit has no knowledge of the game prior to the legislation of zones so his opinion is meaningless to the subject

Kobe basically said the game is less physical today which is correct

But that still doesn't mean it is easier to score

Todays NBA requires much more skill than it was back then

Quote from Steve Kerr:

[QUOTE]Just watching our guys and how talented they are and how talented Houston is, there

[Phoenix]

DonShit has no knowledge of the game prior to the legislation of zones so his opinion is meaningless to the subject

Kobe basically said the game is less physical today which is correct

But that still doesn't mean it is easier to score

Todays NBA requires much more skill than it was back then

Quote from Steve Kerr:

He's a current NBA player who is more than qualified to speak on the ease or difficulty on scoring in today's league.

You keep going on about the legislation of zones, when Lostcause already dropped some information on the existence of zones throughout the decades. It's nothing new, it's nothing that came about in the year 2000 and nobody who played previously never had to deal with. You can't play a true zone in the NBA for all the reasons already outlined, no matter how much you want to stick your fingers in your ear and live in your little sheltered bubble of ignorance. You weren't around in the 90's for all the 'illegal defense' AKA zone like defenses that teams tried to sneak in and got called for on occasion. You also forgot that 99% of yesteryears players played 3/4 years of college ball and would have played against true zones. Guys like Kobe Bryant and Tmac spoke about the difficulty of zones coming right out of high school, of course seeing some kind of faux zone at the NBA level was foreign to them. You talk like the concept of a zone would have been foreign to players in the 80s/90s. Basketball didn't just start when your dad nutted inside your mom and you were shitted out 9 months later. Get a clue...

Adam Silver on increase of scoring:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2804046-adam-silver-nba-rule-changes-having-intended-effect-of-increasing-scoring

The NBA's new rule changes this season, which were implemented to cut down on the amount of contact defensive players can make, have led to a major influx of scoring.

But NBA Commissioner Adam Silver said the new rules are being enforced as planned.

"We had a call with our competition committee last week, which is made up of coaches, GMs, owners, players, officials to discuss just that," he said during a press conference Thursday evening, per ESPN.com. "And the consensus, or the strong feeling from the group was that the rule changes were happening as we intended."

Silver added that one of the aspects of the rule changes being closely monitored was consistency.


"The question that seems to be coming back from some of the coaches and players is in essence is how much physicality will be allowed on defense," he said. "Everybody's feeling their way through this a little bit. What we're hearing is the teams will adjust to wherever we end up, they just want to make sure there is consistency across the league."

Those changes haven't been popular across the board.

"Defense isn't really an emphasis anymore in this league," Draymond Green told reporters on Oct. 21, per Nick Friedell of ESPN.com. "So I think you're seeing it all around the league with these high scores. We know what the emphasis is."

LeBron James, at the very least, believes playing defense has simply become more difficult.

"It's challenging, that's for sure," he said, per Justin Verrier of The Ringer. "You've got so many powerful offensive teams that you're not going to have many possessions that you can be behind because most teams in our league are going to make you pay."

Coming into Thursday night, NBA teams were averaging 112.3 points per game, which would be the highest average for a season since the 1970-71 season, per ESPN.com.

Of course, the NBA in general is trending toward a more offensive game, with teams adapting the strategy of spacing the floor and shooting a flurry of threes, popularized by the Golden State Warriors. Teams also play at a faster pace, taking shots early in the shot clock and pushing the rock in transition.

Add in the increased pace and spacing with the rule changes, and it's hardly surprising the league is trending toward a more offensively charged game.



And your reading of this information, backed up by people like Draymond and Lebron is............it's now harder to score?!

[Manny98]

League average ORTG:

2019: 110.4
95: 108.3

Only 2 points higher per 100 possessions despite a whopping increase in 3s taken :oldlol:

So once again your argument about it being easier to score today is false

Your acting like defense doesn't exist in the current NBA. They made it less physical but the defensive schemes that teams use are much more advanced hence no real increase in leaguewide ppg

[E_Stamkos]

Shitstain98!!!! lol

We're witnessing a David versus Goalith scenerio here boys. With the only deviation being that Goalith wins by a landslide of shit. And David decays into an indelible skid mark

[Phoenix]

League average ORTG:

2019: 110.4
95: 108.3

Only 2 points higher per 100 possessions despite a whopping increase in 3s taken :oldlol:

So once again your argument about it being easier to score today is false

Your acting like defense doesn't exist in the current NBA. They made it less physical but the defensive schemes that teams use are much more advanced hence no real increase in leaguewide ppg


No major increase in leaguewide PPG? In 1995 the highest scoring team Orlando averaged 110.9ppg featuring Shaquille Oneal and Penny Hardaway. The league AVERAGE in 2019 is 111.2ppg. The Fukking Brooklyn Nets led by D'Angelo Russell putting up 21 a game averaged 112.2ppg and half the league scored more than that.

Argument? Adam fukking Silver is quoted above saying the rules are intended to increase scoring. You don't increase scoring by making it HARDER to score. There's no argument here, it's not opinion being discussed. So now you're arguing against what your hero Lebron is saying? What Draymond is saying about defense being de-emphasized? You've been quoting players all thread when it suits you. :confusedshrug:

This is what NBA players were doing in 2019:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IncompatibleVapidIchthyostega-size_restricted.gif

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5c13d1160df176149e6f6f75-750-375.jpg

'harder to score' - Shitstain98

S
H
I
T
STAIN98

[Manny98]

An extra 2 points per game is not a major increase lol

[Phoenix]

An extra 2 points per game is not a major increase lol

League average 1995- 101.4ppg
League average 2019- 111.2ppg

You're wearing your stupidity with disturbing pride.


Adam Silver on increase of scoring:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...easing-scoring

The NBA's new rule changes this season, which were implemented to cut down on the amount of contact defensive players can make, have led to a major influx of scoring.

But NBA Commissioner Adam Silver said the new rules are being enforced as planned.

"We had a call with our competition committee last week, which is made up of coaches, GMs, owners, players, officials to discuss just that," he said during a press conference Thursday evening, per ESPN.com. "And the consensus, or the strong feeling from the group was that the rule changes were happening as we intended."

Silver added that one of the aspects of the rule changes being closely monitored was consistency.


"The question that seems to be coming back from some of the coaches and players is in essence is how much physicality will be allowed on defense," he said. "Everybody's feeling their way through this a little bit. What we're hearing is the teams will adjust to wherever we end up, they just want to make sure there is consistency across the league."

Those changes haven't been popular across the board.

"Defense isn't really an emphasis anymore in this league," Draymond Green told reporters on Oct. 21, per Nick Friedell of ESPN.com. "So I think you're seeing it all around the league with these high scores. We know what the emphasis is."

LeBron James, at the very least, believes playing defense has simply become more difficult.

"It's challenging, that's for sure," he said, per Justin Verrier of The Ringer. "You've got so many powerful offensive teams that you're not going to have many possessions that you can be behind because most teams in our league are going to make you pay."

Coming into Thursday night, NBA teams were averaging 112.3 points per game, which would be the highest average for a season since the 1970-71 season, per ESPN.com.

Of course, the NBA in general is trending toward a more offensive game, with teams adapting the strategy of spacing the floor and shooting a flurry of threes, popularized by the Golden State Warriors. Teams also play at a faster pace, taking shots early in the shot clock and pushing the rock in transition.

Add in the increased pace and spacing with the rule changes, and it's hardly surprising the league is trending toward a more offensively charged game.


Scoring is at a level not seen in nearly 5 decades. You have to go back to the 60's when Wilt was doing 50/25 and Elgin Baylor was doing 38/18 for the kind of numbers inflation we're seeing now.

[Manny98]

League average ORTG:

2019: 110.4
95: 108.3

Only 2 points higher per 100 possessions despite a whopping increase in 3s taken :oldlol:

No major increase

[Phoenix]

League average ORTG:

2019: 110.4
95: 108.3

Only 2 points higher per 100 possessions despite a whopping increase in 3s taken :oldlol:

No major increase

League average 1995- 101.4ppg
League average 2019- 111.2ppg


ORTG is an estimate of points scored over 100 possessions. If you want to cling to the ORTG narrative, then you're saying todays players only have 3 point shooting over yesteryear's players, in order for yesteryears players to come so close in ORTG in spite of not utilizing the 3 point shot. So yesteryear's players by extension were more skilled and multi-faceted at scoring outside of spamming 3 pointers in spaced out courts. It's always nice when someone makes your argument for you.

[FKAri]

You're both right in your arguments but the end result is that it is on the whole easier to score today. It's harder to play defense. It's easier to get in the paint. Zone makes things harder but the combination of perimeter freedom + 3pt shooting are able to negate that for the most part. There's lots of pros and cons both ways.

Ultimately modern offenses have been able to crack the code. A lot of it is credit to the players and the coaches because it was much harder to score before they cracked this code (early 2000s). But should I punish teams and players who can score easier because they figured out how to score... more easily?

[Manny98]

Teams spam 3 pointers because analytics tell you taking 3 pointers is more beneficial than taking mid range jumpers hence the increase in ppg

Players today are much better shooters and are better ball handlers. You have multiple 6'8+ players today with guard handles

Who from the 90s could dribble the ball like Kevin Durant or Ben Simmons

Just accept that todays NBA is more advanced ask any NBA coach and they will tell you the same

Quote from Steve Kerr:

[QUOTE].Just watching our guys and how talented they are and how talented Houston is, there

[Phoenix]

You're both right in your arguments but the end result is that it is on the whole easier to score today. It's harder to play defense. It's easier to get in the paint. Zone makes things harder but the combination of perimeter freedom + 3pt shooting are able to negate that for the most part. There's lots of pros and cons both ways.

Ultimately modern offenses have been able to crack the code. A lot of it is credit to the players and the coaches because it was much harder to score before they cracked this code (early 2000s). But should I punish teams and players who can score easier because they figured out how to score... more easily?

Whoops, another L for you shitstain.

[Manny98]

Whoops, another L for you shitstain.
Why only a 2ppg increase per 100 :confusedshrug:

[Phoenix]

Teams spam 3 pointers because analytics tell you taking 3 pointers is more beneficial than taking mid range jumpers hence the increase in ppg

Players today are much better shooters and are better ball handlers. You have multiple 6'8+ players today with guard handles

Who from the 90s could dribble the ball like Kevin Durant or Ben Simmons

Just accept that todays NBA is more advanced ask any NBA coach and they will tell you the same

Quote from Steve Kerr:

Grant Hill? Penny Hardaway? Steve Smith? Tmac? You think the oversized 6'8+ ballhandler started with Kevin Durant? Basketball was around before you were born champ.

Whatever the reason for the increase in 3s, by extension other scoring facets of the game has decreased. Midrange is a novelty, post play is dead. This in favor of teams who all try to adopt similar methodologies of attacking each other. The lack of scoring diversification because of the exponential increase in 3 pointers doesn't mean the game is improved, just different.

[Phoenix]

Why only a 2ppg increase per 100 :confusedshrug:

Why did the highest scoring team in 1995 score less than the 15th highest scoring team in 2019? You can stick your finger in your ears all day, shitstain, doesn't change a thing. Funny how you slipped right past Fkari's post saying it's overall easier to score now. These L's must be quite the weight on your shoulders. :(

[FKAri]

Teams spam 3 pointers because analytics tell you taking 3 pointers is more beneficial than taking mid range jumpers hence the increase in ppg

Players today are much better shooters and are better ball handlers. You have multiple 6'8+ players today with guard handles

Who from the 90s could dribble the ball like Kevin Durant or Ben Simmons

Just accept that todays NBA is more advanced ask any NBA coach and they will tell you the same

Quote from Steve Kerr:
Ya a lot of this is true but it's still easier to score today. As for 6'8'' ball handlers, a lot of these guys do have better handles but it's also easier to dribble facing up knowing that the officials have your defender on a leash. Both statements can be true.

[NBAGOAT]

fouls got called quite a bit more this year, at least the first half. ft/fga went up from .193 to .198 which sounds like nothing but it's a little more than that since that's been consistently going on a downward trend as teams have decided to foul less/play less physical etc. before that, i dont think perimeter freedom was quite like it was right after the handcheck rule in 05. Thats usually how rule changes go. The refs are overly zealous with their interpretation the first few years and then cool off as time goes by.

Ortg gets affected by multiple factors too, ft rate which is one of them. Coaches dont believe in an emphasis on offensive rebounding nearly as much right now. That hurts a team's ortg but helps a team's drtg at least on paper but doesnt really change their level of play.

If the league really wants to just help offensive stars shine and balance things out a little, just make post play easier somehow. Smaller lane, more foul calls etc. There are a lot of potential star big men in the league. Van Gundy is always complaining about how much doesnt get called there compared to the perimeter

[Vino24]

Kawhi has many Jordan moves in his arsenal but the kicker is that he is actually BETTER at them than Jordan was

[Manny98]

Ya a lot of this is true but it's still easier to score today. As for 6'8'' ball handlers, a lot of these guys do have better handles but it's also easier to dribble facing up knowing that the officials have your defender on a leash. Both statements can be true.
I guess it's easier to score if your a small guard due to less physical defence

Easier implies that guys from previous eras would average a higher ppg if they played today

Smaller guards like Mark Price and Kevin Johnson would have more success in today league

But most players wouldn't really see a massive change in their production

[3ball]

I would take Kawhi over Durant for the same reason I take MJ over him:

Power

Defenses pay a physical cost to defend him and he can choose to overpower or shoot the jumper - this diversity coupled with a greater capacity for aggressiveness wears an opponent down more, which blunts their attack so they don't get hot or comfortable as often

[Turbo Slayer]

Ayy

[Kawhi Not?]

Jordan actually stole moves from Kawhi

[4pointshot]

https://sports.yahoo.com/what-the-raptors-can-learn-from-kawhi-leonards-last-playoff-bout-with-the-warriors-211737646.html