MJ's triangle exceeded league average ORtg by much more than Kobe/Shaq's triangle..

[3ball]

.
despite less offensive help than Shaq or Kobe had:



Points above league average ORtg:


2000 Lakers:. +3.2
2001 Lakers:. +5.4
2002 Lakers:. +4.9

2008 Lakers:. +5.5
2009 Lakers:. +4.5
2010 Lakers:. +1.2
______________________
Average:. +4.12



1991 Bulls:. +6.7
1992 Bulls:. +7.3
1993 Bulls:. +4.9

1996 Bulls:. +7.6
1997 Bulls:. +7.7
1998 Bulls:. +2.7
______________________
Average:. +6.15


thus proving MJ was a much better offensive player and had a much better offensive impact - the GOAT offensive player

Indeed - the triangle was shit in 1994 (14th in the league)... Otoh, it was the #1 offense 4 times during the three-peats, including the #2, #6, #12, and #16 offenses of all time (the most top 10 and top 20 offenses ever)
.

[SouBeachTalents]

1-9

[bigkingsfan]

2016 GS +8.1

Legoat beat them.

[3ball]

2016 GS +8.1

Legoat beat them.


Only 1 out of 4 times

And only 1 out of 3 times vs Spurs

Everyone will have a fluke if you have enough tries..

What's better - the guy with skills to have a juggernaut offense/favorite status, or skills that result in perennial underdogs that can only fluke out at best??..

lebron can't BE the juggernaut offense like MJ and Curry.. his skillset is too ball-dominant/lacks ball movement, so he can only fluke-out at best
.

[bigkingsfan]

Only 1 out of 4 times

And only 1 out of 3 times vs Spurs

Everyone will have a fluke if you have enough tries..

What's better - the guy with skills to have a juggernaut offense/favorite status, or skills that result in perennial underdogs that can only fluke out at best??..

lebron can't BE the juggernaut offense like MJ and Curry.. his skillset is too ball-dominant/lacks ball movement, so he can only fluke-out at best
.
He beat them in two tries, unlike Ordan, PISSED-Ons 4 tries.

[NBAGOAT]

Tell me who else were on those shaq/Kobe teams. You

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]Tell me who else were on those shaq/Kobe teams. You

[Uncle Drew]

Much easier to score and be efficient over 5'9'' part time mechanics and car salesmen.

[RRR3]

Much easier to score and be efficient over 5'9'' part time mechanics and car salesmen.
Bro did you know 90s all-star John Starks was a literal grocery bagger? :eek:

I mean I just recently quit my job as a grocery store cashier...how good would I be in the 90s????

[riseagainst]

Much easier to score and be efficient over 5'9'' part time mechanics and car salesmen.


:lol

:roll:

bodied.

[NBAGOAT]

[QUOTE=RRR3]If you want a way to defeat him just point how much worse Bill Cartwright got once he joined the Bulls. He has no real rebuttal for that. It completely flummoxes him and he just repeats complete nonsense even he doesn

[ImKobe]

Less offensive help than Shaq/Kobe?

early 2000s Lakers were just built on Shaq/Kobe with a bunch of role players in the toughest defensive era, 08-10 Lakers had Kobe/Gasol and role players, those were pretty similar to 90s Bulls offensively but the defensive rules had changed so the league as a whole got better offensively.

Also, Kobe or Shaq missed a bunch of games during the season and Shaq especially came into the RS out of shape so you know they were coasting to the POs.

'96 and '97 Bulls also benefited from a shortened 3PT line, or is it Pippen missing half the season that made the '98 Bulls so much worse on offense? hmm.

[SpaceJam2]

Much easier to score and be efficient over 5'9'' part time mechanics and car salesmen.

BoDieD

:applause: :applause: :lol

[RRR3]

Less offensive help than Shaq/Kobe?

early 2000s Lakers were just built on Shaq/Kobe with a bunch of role players in the toughest defensive era, 08-10 Lakers had Kobe/Gasol and role players, those were pretty similar to 90s Bulls offensively but the defensive rules had changed so the league as a whole got better offensively.

Also, Kobe or Shaq missed a bunch of games during the season and Shaq especially came into the RS out of shape so you know they were coasting to the POs.

'96 and '97 Bulls also benefited from a shortened 3PT line, or is it Pippen missing half the season that made the '98 Bulls so much worse on offense? hmm.
They did have Glen Rice for one of their rings.

[ImKobe]

They did have Glen Rice for one of their rings.

Yup, but he was a shell of his former self and didn't fit much at all in Jackson's triangle offense. Pretty sure Rice still hates Phil to this day.

[NBAGOAT]

Also quite simply shaq/Kobe coasted more than most. Later Kobe lakers too to some extent. Shaq/Kobe lakers may have been the goat playoff offense but I can

[3ball]

They did have Glen Rice for one of their rings.
They also had Horace Grant, just like the bulls did

Who did the bulls have after MJ/Pippen

A bunch of role players

MJ achieved much better offenses than prime Shaq, and Shaq had fuccing Kobe, not garbage, bricklayer Pip

[FKAri]

They also had Horace Grant, just like the bulls did

Who did the bulls have after MJ/Pippen

A bunch of role players

MJ achieved much better offenses than prime Shaq, and Shaq had fuccing Kobe, not garbage, bricklayer Pip
MJ also had garbage bricklayers as his opposition. The 2nd best player of MJ's era was probably Hakeem. That nigguh learned how to play basketball from a pamphlet on his plane ride to the NBA Draft. And MJ didn't even face that nigguh. He faced WORSE nigguhs! :oldlol:

[3ball]

MJ also had garbage bricklayers as his opposition. The 2nd best player of MJ's era was probably Hakeem. That nigguh learned how to play basketball from a pamphlet on his plane ride to the NBA Draft. And MJ didn't even face that nigguh? He faced WORSE nigguhs! :oldlol:
MJ is the goat offensive player and these stats prove it - you don't think it's remarkable that MJ had much better triangles than prime Shaq or Kobe?.. this is a complete apples to apples comparison and MJ destroys them

Also, the 2nd best player of mj's era was prime Magic in 1991, who was runner-up for MVP and made a Finals run

... Then prime Shaq.. then prime Bird.... Then maybe Hakeem, although Isiah would have a case, or Malone/Barkley

Today's equivalent is Durant, Curry, Duncan, Dirk - not better than the guys MJ faced

[tpols]

Its common knowledge Lakers used to coast in the regular season back then...especially shaq.

Fake news...

[SouBeachTalents]

MJ is the goat offensive player and these stats prove it - you don't think it's remarkable that MJ had much better triangles than prime Shaq or Kobe?.. this is a complete apples to apples comparison and MJ destroys them

Also, the 2nd best player of mj's era was prime Magic in 1991, who was runner-up for MVP and made a Finals run

... Then prime Shaq.. then prime Bird.... Then maybe Hakeem, although Isiah would have a case, or Malone/Barkley

Today's equivalent is Durant, Curry, Duncan, Dirk - not better than the guys MJ faced
Lmao at

'91 Magic being better than his MVP years in the 80's

And Isiah having a case over Hakeem

[3ball]

Its common knowledge Lakers used to coast in the regular season back then...especially shaq.

Fake news...
Shaq didn't coast in 2000 and MJ still destroyed him - and the numbers aren't close - it's a blowout - MJ's bulls had 50% bigger edge on the league than Shaq did.. Shaq ain't coasting that much

And what about Kobe from 08-10'???

So the data is conclusive and it's apples to apples - triangle vs triangle - this is the kind of data that literally proves mj's goatness...

Other data that proves MJ to be goat is the overall clutch stats (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13735842&postcount=16) for MJ, Kobe, Lebron, and Durant - old MJ shot much better in the clutch on 20% more attempts than the prime versions of these guys..

Other conclusive data would be the jumpshooting stats that show MJ made twice as many jumpers as lebron or Curry's highest year, with better efficiency than lebron's best (stats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13665038&postcount=19))
.

[3ball]

Lmao at

'91 Magic being better than his MVP years in the 80's

And Isiah having a case over Hakeem
The only reason he didn't win MVP in 1991 was because of MJ

And imagine if the Warriors didn't exist - the championship would be WIDE OPEN - maybe Portland would have a shot, or Houston.. clippers??

that's the circumstance that Hakeem won the ring - he'd be 0-2 in the Finals if MJ's dad didn't get murdered, and nowhere near Isiah...

[SouBeachTalents]

The only reason he didn't win MVP in 1991 was because of MJ

And imagine if the Warriors didn't exist - the championship would be WIDE OPEN - maybe Portland would have a shot, or Houston.. clippers??

that's the circumstance that Hakeem won the ring - he'd be 0-2 in the Finals if MJ's dad didn't get murdered, and nowhere near Isiah...
Nah, even without the titles he was still an MVP & DPOY, and was clearly a better & more impactful player than Isiah was

[SpaceJam2]

Nah, even without the titles he was still an MVP & DPOY, and was clearly a better & more impactful player than Isiah was

Honestly I think the fact that Jordan has a losing record to
Hakeem and Isaiah is why 3ball is so mad

[egokiller]

Bro did you know 90s all-star John Starks was a literal grocery bagger? :eek:

I mean I just recently quit my job as a grocery store cashier...how good would I be in the 90s????

So if Josh Gad bagged groceries he

[AussieSteve]

[QUOTE=RRR3]If you want a way to defeat him just point how much worse Bill Cartwright got once he joined the Bulls. He has no real rebuttal for that. It completely flummoxes him and he just repeats complete nonsense even he doesn

[3ball]

It's actually not hard to show that basically all of Jordan's teammates scored less next to him. Not that any individual scored significantly less, but that everyone scored a bit less

.
Exactly - but more important than everyone playing near capacity - they weren't reduced to spot-up shooters and had their role marginalized..

that's what kills a team and requires a constant need for "moar help" as each guy is reduced to spot-up shooters... It's pretty damn pathetic tbh, and even more pathetic that the media/fans don't see what's going on

And obviously, anytime a superstar like Bosh or Love is reduced catastrophically to role player - that hurts a team's capacity more than anything
.

[NBAGOAT]

Exactly - but more important than everyone playing near capacity - they weren't reduced to spot-up shooters and had their role marginalized..

that's what kills a team and requires a constant need for "moar help" as each guy is reduced to spot-up shooters... It's pretty damn pathetic tbh, and even more pathetic that the media/fans don't see what's going on

And obviously, anytime a superstar like Bosh or Love is reduced catastrophically to role player - that hurts a team's capacity more than anything
.

We

[RRR3]

Exactly - but more important than everyone playing near capacity - they weren't reduced to spot-up shooters and had their role marginalized..

that's what kills a team and requires a constant need for "moar help" as each guy is reduced to spot-up shooters... It's pretty damn pathetic tbh, and even more pathetic that the media/fans don't see what's going on

And obviously, anytime a superstar like Bosh or Love is reduced catastrophically to role player - that hurts a team's capacity more than anything
.
I already proved to you that Cartwright got significantly worse under MJ.



Inb4 you cite counting stats trying to act like you don

[3ball]

I already proved to you that Cartwright got significantly worse under MJ.



Inb4 you cite counting stats trying to act like you don’t know how many MPG he was playing each year.
Cartwright was just old and a 7th option that the Knicks had already benched

The main players Pippen/Grant/Armstrong/etc played near capacity next to MJ.. but more important than playing near capacity - they weren't reduced to spot-up shooters and had their role marginalized..

that's what kills a team and requires a constant need for "moar help" as each guy is reduced to spot-up shooters... It's pretty damn pathetic tbh, and even more pathetic that the media/fans don't see what's going on

And obviously, anytime a superstar like Bosh or Love is reduced catastrophically to role player - that hurts a team's capacity more than anything
.

[RRR3]

Cartwright was just old and a 7th option that the Knicks had already benched

The main players Pippen/Grant/Armstrong/etc played near capacity next to MJ.. but more important than playing near capacity - they weren't reduced to spot-up shooters and had their role marginalized..

that's what kills a team and requires a constant need for "moar help" as each guy is reduced to spot-up shooters... It's pretty damn pathetic tbh, and even more pathetic that the media/fans don't see what's going on

And obviously, anytime a superstar like Bosh or Love is reduced catastrophically to role player - that hurts a team's capacity more than anything
.
B.J. Armstrong and Grant became all-stars the first year they didn

[3ball]

We’re talking about shaq and Kobe here... I’ll maybe try and do the numbers later but there’s a good chance the lakers are a goat playoff offense.

On to bosh and love why do you not acknowledge them having the best impact metrics of their career with lebron. Look up rapm, rpm, pipm etc


Playoff stats are opponent-dependant, whereas regular season is against like comp

And here's the first one I looked up regarding advanced stats:



14' Love RPM - 5.06 (12th)
15' Love RPM - 2.06 (52nd)

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2


Dude, how the hell would their impact be higher with lebron when they were only winning 51 and 53 games? That's amazing underachievement, so it's no surprise that love and Bosh's impact stats sucked with bron

[NBAGOAT]

Playoff stats are opponent-dependant, whereas regular season is against like comp

And here's the first one I looked up regarding advanced stats:



14' Love RPM - 5.06 (12th)
15' Love RPM - 2.06 (52nd)

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2

15 was the first year and don

[3ball]

15 was the first year and don’t just look up rpm . Post 16,17,18 too. If you think rapm doesn’t adjust for opponents, you don’t understand the star.
I was talking about team ortg in Playoffs vs regular season

And if you're so confident in the other stats (rpm, etc), then you post the stats

I already posted 2015 and it shows ur dead wrong

And how the hell would their impact be higher with lebron when they were only winning 51 and 53 games? That's amazing underachievement, so it's no surprise that love and Bosh's impact stats sucked with bron

Ultimately, how does the greatest player ever team up with prime Kyrie and only win 51 games and be a big underdog?... It's impossible . Apparently, lebron isn't the greatest ever....

Miami was even worse - how does the greatest player ever join the next best player in the league and then lose (11') and be an underdog (12')??? Obviously, lebron isn't the best ever... The heat lost or were underdogs for 3 of 4 years, including the goat choke and record defeat.. how is that goat???...:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: