Anyone ready to stop saying guys need to gut it out and play for good?

[Kblaze8855]

Serious question.

How many all time greats are you down to lose for the sake of someone looking tough and not wanting to seem soft to idiot fans? Being cleared to play means nothing. Not a little. Nothing at all. Doctors clear hundreds of people who are at massive additional risk. And fans act like being cleared to practice means you need to go play all the time. This is me in 2013 on Rose:



Get back to me when you are landing on Derrick Roses knee after you jump. Till then I have no interest in your opinion on how it feels or is performing.

History is full of "Doctors say he can play" before it turns out he shouldnt have.

Nobody his age with so much on his back should be risking anything if they dont feel the knee is right.



I know he tore his ACL playing when he should have been sitting. And I know he doesnt feel ready to play. Your opinion on his knee means zero. PEople have been hating on injured players saying "Hurry up!" for decades before disasters.



We have lost too many people to "Well...we thought he was fine". Too many legendary talents have become too many cautionary tales. Grant Hill back for the playoffs when he shouldnt be, Penny(read some of his articles on how nobody on the magic wanted to hear that he needed to sit...how he felt pressure to play before he ended himself), Walton, Webber putting off rest till after the season going down in 03 and never being the same, everyone wanting Oden back including Portland fans here calling him out for being "cleared".

Im sick of it. So many of the same stories. Always "He was cleared...." then fans talking about what if what if...

Being called a "warrior" on the internet isnt worth being the next Penny. Get yourself together. No hesitation. No favoring one leg and blowing out the other. Get right and get back.

If hes somehow out next year....be reason to worry.

Taking a year with a torn ACL looking to be ready in your own eyes?

Fine.

He comes back and Webbers himself and ends up a jump shooter on the 76ers....at least we wont have the "Idiot...why was he even out there?" part of the story.



We lost 3 superstars in a decade who needed nothing but to sit down instead of trying to carry a team to/in the playoffs late in the season....in every case....fans want them to gut it out. Great Hill said he felt pressure to play just off people bringing up how Isiah wouldnt sit in the playoffs with an injury the doctors cleared him with. He didnt even think people believed he was hurting. Said he almost felt relief when it finally went and they could see it on the xray....and then he went from Lebron to "I hope he plays again...ever".

The shit is foolish and history has proven it time and time again. If someone is too upset to wait...**** em. They need to see past today. If you had someone like me behind the scenes we might not have lost Penny, Hill, or Webber. For sure wouldnt have seen Kobe and RG3 go down both of them....I watched live while discussing with a Laker/Redskin fan(odd combo I know) why they were in the game to begin with. But people like those in this topic get upset and pressure them over their contract and what they owe the people. Makes for a culture that straight up wrecks some of our most promising young stars over and over. We lose a couple a decade to "Dude....doctors say you are ok...go play. We pay you a lot of money". Just off the top I can think of 2 from the 70s, 2 from the 80s, 2 major ones from the 90s, 2 from the 2000s not counting a few that were less major but still foolish and most of them did not have to be. And im not even counting Greg Oden who had Blazer fans making "Why isnt he back?" topics like idiots before he lost an ice cream scoop sized chunk of his kneecap. I consider him just...brittle. Im considering the people who didnt have to go the way they did. And the thousands(millions) they felt were pushing them to go in the face of their better judgement.

Who does the sport the most harm in the big picture?




Im not gonna post the responses because it would probably seem personal...and the people saying he needs to play because hes cleared and making 15 million are in many cases still here. Im just saying.....



You mentioned being likely to hurt the other leg......I feel like I read something on that being fairly common with guys who favor one coming off injury. Isnt the torn ACL on the leg opposite of the one he was sitting out for before last years playoffs?


Tore up the other knee 9 games back when hed already complained about still being sore and having sat out a game that season to rest it.

Looking back....he probably should have taken a second season off.

He didnt feel right for 2-3 years. Bernard King said the same thing. He wasnt himself again for years.

Not everyone is right when the doctors say you can play.

But every time....EVERY time....guys wanna rush them back for the short term gain.

We almost need a good of the game rule to mandate the time spent out for some injuries. You tear an ACL you might need to be forced to take 18 months before even being evaluated to be clear. If you arent right.....**** it. Take 2 years. If your foot has a fracture....**** that title run.

The NBA needed Bill Walton. It didnt need him to split his foot in half coming back for the playoffs with the doctors saying he was fine(he sued the team doctors for the record).

It needed Kobe sitting out after that bad sprain not playing when he pretty much ruined his career.

The NBA needed Grant Hill to sit out the 2000 playoffs.

It needed Penny to sit when they couldnt see the injury but he could feel it.

It needed Derrick Rose to sit down for weeks if not months when his knee was still sore a year after he was cleared.

It needed Webber not to rush back for the 03 playoffs and tear up his knee and go from GOAT tier forward athleticism wise to a no lift jump shooter.

It needed Yao Ming to sit out in 2009 when he was already hurt a while before effectively ruining his career in the playoffs vs the Lakers.

It needed Kevin Durant to just rest even with the title on the line.


We all praise the warriors like Isiah Thomas. Myself included. We look at:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SnarlingUnderstatedBlobfish-size_restricted.gif







https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MisguidedGrimyKentrosaurus-size_restricted.gif







https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExhaustedCreepyChick-size_restricted.gif




And give him his due props.


But shit.....are those magical moments worth robbing us of thousands of games of all time great play over the years?

[Kblaze8855]

We want a compelling series. We call guys who say they are still hurt even when doctors cant see it *******. We say shit like:



Why do I have to keep saying that if he's physically not right...he shouldn't play. I dispute that he's not right. All the evidence points to him being right and just choosing not to play.



Its like....who the **** are you or me or anyone to say a guy is right when he says he isnt?

What does anyone actually get out of these guys rushing back?

Who rushed back to have a magical run we all remember that made them risking the next 5-10 years of greatness worth it?

Wilt missed a season and came back for the playoffs only to be laughed at for losing to the Knicks for 40 years by people who dont even realize he missed that entire regular season with a torn up knee. Magic rushed back vs the Pistons and limped around for a few minutes as they got swept. Who rushes back to the eternal appreciation of the fans? Willis Reed who was a role player for the brief time he was able to return after that title?


We are all lucky the Bulls didnt let Jordan come back as soon as he wanted with that broken foot. I was one of the stupid people then who wanted him back. He wanted to be back. And when they let him back they still put him on limited minutes(7 minutes a half at first I think). He argued that he practiced hard daily and shouldnt have limits. Say they let him go out there and he breaks it again Walton style. When Michael Jordan is a cautionary tale....does 20 extra games in 1986 seem worth it?

I am so ****ing over people coming back as soon as possible.

We need the rest of history to be Embiids and KPs and even more extreme Rose situations.

You get hurt....**** the fans, **** the team, and **** anyone talking about how much money you make.

Sit down till 5 doctors say go + you feel like yourself. I dont care if it takes 2 full years. We still have people talking so much shit about Hayward he ended up in therapy feeling like hes letting people down. Paul George had to call him and let him know it was 2 years before he was back for real. The doctors clear you after 6-10 months but you arent you for years.

Do you owe the rest of your career(potentially) for a playoff run for fans who dont appreciate you beyond what you can do for them?

Anyone ready to stop asking "Why isnt he back yet? Hes clear to play!" and just appreciate guys for working to get back.

Nobody wants to sit. Even the lazy ****s wanna be back to earn another contract. But if you arent right....

This shit really is out of hand. Pressure on these guys is costing us more than the few games(or weeks...or months) they miss trying to rush.

Guys will straight up say you are faking injury or making it out to be worse than it is like they did with Durant and Hill(both of them supposedly trying to stay healthy for free agency) then they go down and those people are nowhere to be seen.

Has anyone...ANYONE learned a lesson?

When _____ says his knee hurts but hes cleared next year are you still gonna be talking about needing to play if the doctors say he can play?

The Blazers knew Walton, Brandon Roy, and Greg Oden were all ****ed up and still put them out there 30+ minutes. They knew Brandon Roy had no padding in his knees. He should have been playing 20 minutes max as a hell of a 6th man the minute they realized it. They had him playing 40+ minutes some games years after they realized he might be a time bomb.

This cant just go on forever can it?

Much as I hate the soft load management era.....we all need to grow up and accept that it has to be done.

Anything in your neck, knee, back, feet, hips, or ankle feels weird....sit down till it doesnt. We cant afford to keep losing Brandon Roys and Kevin Durants.....can we?

[PeroAntic]

DRose would have busted his knee again even if he took a 5 year break. it wasnt the length of recuperation, it was that his style of play and body are a recipe for injuries. I completely understand Durant's decision to come back and risk himself with the title on the line. thats what the game is about

[Mr Feeny]

Yeah I agree. It's easy to sit here and complain about players not playing when their bodies arent at 100% because we arent the ones who would pay the consequences. If an athlete rushes back and destroys his body, fans just move on and discuss another athlete.
This is a cautionary tale and I think that players and fans are going to be a bit more circumspect from now on.

[Kblaze8855]

I’d say his style made it more likely which is even more reason anybody with common sense should’ve told him to sit down as long as possible. Him....Hill...Oden...Roy....Yao...Embiid. Guys who had a style or body type to make it harder to get back to 100% should be on serious restrictions most of their career after injury till they are proven sound. Not clear to give it a shot. Proven with a year or more of healthy play. If they never get back to 40 minutes **** it.

We(myself included) get so caught up in toughness we don’t consider that 28 minutes a night and no back to backs are long term more that we get out of a guy risking his career.

[ImKobe]

It's easy to say a player should have sat out after the fact. Most professional athletes play through injuries all their career. We only remember the injuries that sidelined the players but these guys know what they're risking when they go out there and an achilles injury is something you can't just predict happening, unless the Warriors' medical staff knew that he had hurt it in the Rockets' series and that there was a risk of rupturing/tearing it further.

John Wall blew out his achilles slipping & falling at home. Rose was getting "load management" during the 2011-12 RS and still blew out his knee the first Playoff game and a dozen games into the 2014 season after taking more than a year off.

[iamgine]

It's not that simple. Everyone's hurt at the end of season, does that mean they shouldn't play?

[ILLsmak]

Depends on the injury and the guy. Nobody should tell someone to come back. People know their bodies. If it's their choice then do it. But the fact that it seems like they pressured him they are scum. Just like the kawhi thing. And for what. I guess if they win one for kd then that's cool and all but they are still shit.

-Smak

[Kblaze8855]

It's easy to say a player should have sat out after the fact. Most professional athletes play through injuries all their career. We only remember the injuries that sidelined the players but these guys know what they're risking when they go out there and an achilles injury is something you can't just predict happening, unless the Warriors' medical staff knew that he had hurt it in the Rockets' series and that there was a risk of rupturing/tearing it further.

John Wall blew out his achilles slipping & falling at home. Rose was getting "load management" during the 2011-12 RS and still blew out his knee the first Playoff game and a dozen games into the 2014 season after taking more than a year off.


It

[FKAri]

No simple answers here. The line between rushed and safe gets blurrier the higher the stakes.

[Kblaze8855]

It's not that simple. Everyone's hurt at the end of season, does that mean they shouldn't play?


Hurting and playing when you already had most people thinking you ruptured your Achilles are not the same thing.

Hurting and feeling like your foot is about to break is not the same.

Playing 45 minutes after you sprained your ankle bad and shouldn

[ILLsmak]

No simple answers here. The line between rushed and safe gets blurrier the higher the stakes.

The risk is fair gm if it's yr choice. Imagine not playing in the finals. Must be hurt.

No one should say shit.



-Smak

[elementally morale]

It's easy to be wise in retrospect. We just don't know until we do. And neither does the player. Durant could've played the remaining games without this injury. It was bad luck. And he could've sat out.

Bottom line:

the players should decide if they play or not
the teams decide if they want to pay the players or not
the fans decide who and what they like


We all have our decisions. Durant made his. Got unlucky. It could've gone differently. Coming back, winning 3 games, another FMVP, boosted legacy. Sh!t happens.

[RoseCity07]

No one really thought KD should push this.

I could see playing through a shoulder or something. Leg injuries are nothing to play with in the NBA.

[FKAri]

The risk is fair gm if it's yr choice. Imagine not playing in the finals. Must be hurt.

No one should say shit.



-Smak
Ya but what would KD really know? It's about what his doctors tell him but even then at what point do you pull the trigger? 1 in 3 chance of tearing your achilles? 1 in 5? in 10? in 20? in 40? At some point you say "**** it, I'm going out there" and even then it's a roll of dice.

[ImKobe]

It’s often easier to tell before the fact. Too many time some amazing player is telling people in private he shouldn’t play but gets pressure to play and ruins his career. But just as often a team knows it and bows to the players demand to play.

Caution is pretty much always in the leagues best interests.

You talking Rose being under load management before he was hurt the first time when he was still in a game the bulls had won with next to no time to play.

The next time he’s back playing big minutes right after a game he had to sit out for soreness.

If you are missing games for soreness after a life altering injury why are you playing big minutes when you return?

Teams are just being idiots.

Well, teams always act in their own best interest. Durant wasn't committed to staying with the Warriors past this season so it was easy for them to act selfishly and convince him to go out there and risk further injury on his right leg, at worst he picks up the Player Option and they owe him 31 million while he rehabs. Would they have put him out there and risked injuring him with 4 years left on his deal? Probably not.

I understand a lesser player taking the risk in his contract year, but obviously not Durant with at least 3 teams wanting to sign him for 4 yrs/164 mil on top of the Warriors potentially offering him the supermax, though I think he's going to get a 4-year deal from the Knicks or the Lakers regardless of his injury if the Warriors do try to low-ball him. It's Kevin ****ing Durant. But I knew he was going to force himself out there with everyone from the team to the media to the fans pressuring him to return for the series, a guy who creates alts like Simon to respond to random people online is going to hear all the noise and let it go to his head and cloud his judgement. I think both sides are to blame here.


As far as the Bulls go, Thibs had shortened the careers of many with his old-school minutes' management so I wasn't surprised Rose was still out there up 12, no one else got benched either and it was Game 1 against a team with no hope of beating them in the first round, it's infuriating but at the same time that injury was probably inevitable with Rose's herky-jerky movements on the court.

[Kblaze8855]

It's easy to be wise in retrospect. We just don't know until we do.

I dont think im making myself clear. Im not talking about retrospect. Im talking about people with clear warning signs we all are aware of still being used up like its worth the risk. Things we can see coming not just things we know in retrospect.

Brandon Roy had NO padding in his knees. The team figured this out.

Hes on a team with Andre Miller at the point, Wesley Matthews, Nick Batum, and Rudy Fernandez on the wings with Patty Mills an extra backup guard.

Knowing what they already knew.....why would he EVER play 40 minutes in a game?

You play him 40 minutes in a game in december to beat the Suns.

Great. Good W.

But knowing he has no knees....why isnt he the best 6th man of his era? Why didnt they think "Ok...we destroyed Bill Walton and set outselves back 10 years and he sued us....we let Oden return and play big minutes too..then he retired...even knowing Sam Bowie missed 2 seasons in college and had a 7 hour medical evaluation for us to agree to draft him....we still played him 40 minutes and 38 minutes coming off another leg injury...then he broke it again.....perhaps...we will smarten up this time?"

Is that a "Easy to say in hindsight" thing?


I think thats a "Our franchise players knees are bone on bone....its limit his minutes" thing. They knew in like his second season he didnt have knees. But play him 38 minutes a game like its just gonna all work out.

We(again...myself included) talk about toughness so much we lose the big picture.

Being half man half a season gets you laughed at....but here he is 21 years in still going. We need more half man half a seasons as much as it feels wrong to say so.

When Zion says his knee is bugging him a in a couple years and we all know hes 280 jumping 45 inches we gonna play dumb again and shorten that career highlight reel from 45 minutes to 10? Or is someone gonna say "28 minutes max all season....no back to backs...." and let the fans whine?

After all we have learned....isnt it smart to get out ahead of it?

[SamuraiSWISH]

That’s why I never got mad at D Rose for not coming back when expected or Leonard needing to force his way out of that mind control cult down in SA. An athlete or a person in general knows their body better than anyone else.

[MrFonzworth]

Franco Harris was known to run out of bounds rather than lowering his shoulder, sacrificing his body for an extra yard or two.

He got a lot of criticism for being "soft", and was often raped in the lockeroom because of it, but his strategy without a doubt extended his hall of fame career.

[Kblaze8855]

Well, teams always act in their own best interest. Durant wasn't committed to staying with the Warriors past this season so it was easy for them to act selfishly and convince him to go out there and risk further injury on his right leg, at worst he picks up the Player Option and they owe him 31 million while he rehabs. Would they have put him out there and risked injuring him with 4 years left on his deal? Probably not.

I understand a lesser player taking the risk in his contract year, but obviously not Durant with at least 3 teams wanting to sign him for 4 yrs/164 mil on top of the Warriors potentially offering him the supermax, though I think he's going to get a 4-year deal from the Knicks or the Lakers regardless of his injury if the Warriors do try to low-ball him. It's Kevin ****ing Durant. But I knew he was going to force himself out there with everyone from the team to the media to the fans pressuring him to return for the series, a guy who creates alts like Simon to respond to random people online is going to hear all the noise and let it go to his head and cloud his judgement. I think both sides are to blame here.


As far as the Bulls go, Thibs had shortened the careers of many with his old-school minutes' management so I wasn't surprised Rose was still out there up 12, no one else got benched either and it was Game 1 against a team with no hope of beating them in the first round, it's infuriating but at the same time that injury was probably inevitable with Rose's herky-jerky movements on the court.



Thats the worst thing.

An already hurt guy who may be the GOAT point guard athlete and plays with more torque and harder changes of direction than Barry Sanders is still out there going hard in a game we can win without him?

Play him. Maybe. In the game up 12 with no time?

Just have some sense.

[Kblaze8855]

Franco Harris was known to run out of bounds rather than lowering his shoulder, sacrificing his body for an extra yard or two.

He got a lot of criticism for being "soft", and was often raped in the lockeroom because of it, but his strategy without a doubt extended his hall of fame career.

And Franco still taking handoffs in that nfl Super Bowl commercial.

Earl Campbell cooking bbq in a wheelchair.

[elementally morale]

I dont think im making myself clear.


I got it the first time. You are right... as far as the fanbase is concerned. (You won't change human behavior though.)

I simply pointed out that we all make decisions. You never know. Shaq wanted to leave and Kobe wanted Shaq out. Looked like a disaster. In two years... it was Shaq who made the right decision. Then it was the Lakers/Kobe. In the end it turned out they both made... the right decision.. as well as the wrong one. It was all good... but it could've been even better had it happened differently. Decisions.

Jordan retired. Came back. Retired. Came back again. Injured himself, missed the playoffs. Boosted his legacy? Ruined it? I don't know. It was his decision.

Players make decisions. Teams do, too. And finally, the fans can also decide what to think of certain players and situations.

Durant could've said no. It was tempting. Not only the ring but the FMVP and the legacy boost. Kerr was okay with it. They made decisions. It didn't turn out great. But there was a chance it would.

Embiid in his 2nd year at 280 and his stlye of play... all in the regular season is much dumber. But it was not that bad... after all it got him a huge contract... and he may win in the future. Durant can also win in the future. Or he may not.. and he will retire with a few rings and several hundred million dollars. It's fine if you ask me.

[tpols]

It was an end of season do or die finals game...calf strain. Now he has a torn tendon, doesn't mean shit Paul George snapped his leg in half and got better.

Durant isn't derrick rose. His height, shooting and skill aren't going anywhere, rose was braindead with little skill which is why his injuries hurt him so bad.

[Kblaze8855]

You were literally saying yesterday that great minds think alike in response to a topic on Durant faking it. You and those like you are much of the problem.

You already took out Grant Hill and Penny with that shit.

[warriorfan]

Pretty sure I have skimmed through 20 paragraph posts from kblaze about how

[tpols]

Also were not missing 1000s of games...not even 100s probably from KD plus whose watching 95% of the load management riddled filler? Who watches golden state vs Orlando magic games in January? We watch Durant to see what he'll do in the big playoff matchups. If anything him not playing there is robbing us.

[Kblaze8855]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Pretty sure I have skimmed through 20 paragraph posts from kblaze about how

[elementally morale]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You not remembering who got hurt has nothing to do with the fact that it happened.

It

[warriorfan]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You not remembering who got hurt has nothing to do with the fact that it happened.

It

[red1]

shit is tragic. I can't even hate on kd anymore. the one quarter he came back he absolutely balled out - it feels like we're literally saved by his injury as a team because now we'll close them out.

[Kblaze8855]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Not trying to derail but do you really thing KD was handled foolishly? What should have GS done? Physically restrained him from going onto the court?

KD is a big boy. He knows himself and his body, he took a calculated risk and it didn

[Hey Yo]

No simple answers here. The line between rushed and safe gets blurrier the higher the stakes.
I agree.

If GS were the ones up 3-1 in the series...... there's no chance we would have seen KD on the court last night.

[highwhey]

Bob Myers handled this whole situation horribly. He should have at the very minimum put a minutes restriction - but nope, no easing back into his 1st game in over 30 days :facepalm

just a cluster**** anyway you look at it, but the main blame rests with the organization for not controlling his return with more caution.

[Norcaliblunt]

Think of all the average people who put their faith and fate into the hands of doctors? And these people don

[elementally morale]

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt]Think of all the average people who put their faith and fate into the hands of doctors? And these people don

[AirFederer]

Serious question.

How many all time greats are you down to lose for the sake of someone looking tough and not wanting to seem soft to idiot fans? Being cleared to play means nothing. Not a little. Nothing at all. Doctors clear hundreds of people who are at massive additional risk. And fans act like being cleared to practice means you need to go play all the time. This is me in 2013 on Rose:
















Im not gonna post the responses because it would probably seem personal...and the people saying he needs to play because hes cleared and making 15 million are in many cases still here. Im just saying.....





Tore up the other knee 9 games back when hed already complained about still being sore and having sat out a game that season to rest it.

Looking back....he probably should have taken a second season off.

He didnt feel right for 2-3 years. Bernard King said the same thing. He wasnt himself again for years.

Not everyone is right when the doctors say you can play.

But every time....EVERY time....guys wanna rush them back for the short term gain.

We almost need a good of the game rule to mandate the time spent out for some injuries. You tear an ACL you might need to be forced to take 18 months before even being evaluated to be clear. If you arent right.....**** it. Take 2 years. If your foot has a fracture....**** that title run.

The NBA needed Bill Walton. It didnt need him to split his foot in half coming back for the playoffs with the doctors saying he was fine(he sued the team doctors for the record).

It needed Kobe sitting out after that bad sprain not playing when he pretty much ruined his career.

The NBA needed Grant Hill to sit out the 2000 playoffs.

It needed Penny to sit when they couldnt see the injury but he could feel it.

It needed Derrick Rose to sit down for weeks if not months when his knee was still sore a year after he was cleared.

It needed Webber not to rush back for the 03 playoffs and tear up his knee and go from GOAT tier forward athleticism wise to a no lift jump shooter.

It needed Yao Ming to sit out in 2009 when he was already hurt a while before effectively ruining his career in the playoffs vs the Lakers.

It needed Kevin Durant to just rest even with the title on the line.


We all praise the warriors like Isiah Thomas. Myself included. We look at:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SnarlingUnderstatedBlobfish-size_restricted.gif







https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MisguidedGrimyKentrosaurus-size_restricted.gif







https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExhaustedCreepyChick-size_restricted.gif




And give him his due props.


But shit.....are those magical moments worth robbing us of thousands of games of all time great play over the years?

ok

[Real Men Wear Green]

It's clearly not for us to say for sure that another man should be playing when he had an injury. The moral judgment, or at least throwing the label "soft" on a guy for not balling with a limp, should stop. But without acting like it makes him a bad person it is fair to say that the time it took for Rose to come back from injuries in the past has negatively affected his value. Just don't make it into an attack on his character.

[DaHeezy]

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt]Think of all the average people who put their faith and fate into the hands of doctors? And these people don

[Charlie Sheen]

Doesn't make me happy to see KD go down like that, but I'll be honest with you... No. I'm not ready to stop calling guys soft. It's been ingrained in my fanhood.

This morning I have a much greater respect for Kawhi though.

[ILLsmak]

Ya but what would KD really know? It's about what his doctors tell him but even then at what point do you pull the trigger? 1 in 3 chance of tearing your achilles? 1 in 5? in 10? in 20? in 40? At some point you say "**** it, I'm going out there" and even then it's a roll of dice.

People think I'm crazy because I get intuitions based on nothing and maybe legit I am just pulling shit out of my ass, but it seemed to me kd didn't wanna play. Like I said in another thread cuz he makes js they just keep him out there. He goes 3-3 and they take him out like Willis Reed and mbe it'll be a better choice.

I feel like kd was bullied into playing. And while the injury might not have been directly related, when you have one weak part it causes you to do shit different. Having a broken finger, jaw, etc is worlds away from having a core injury or leg injury. It was just a bad look imo. I did not think he'd blow his shit out. That was a v unlikely outcome (at least expectation wise), but Kerr went on record like the worst that could happen was a tweak. Oops. They know they ****ed up and importantly they know they ****ed him.

But otoh if they pull this out he made a noble sacrifice even tho it wasn't worth it. Without KD playing and the morale they prol lose in 5. But I didn't get a chance to watch it yet had to get up early so just saw them balling early.

Tbh knowing kd blew his shit out and wars won I probably won't watch either.

-Smak

[iamgine]

People think I'm crazy because I get intuitions based on nothing and maybe legit I am just pulling shit out of my ass, but it seemed to me kd didn't wanna play. Like I said in another thread cuz he makes js they just keep him out there. He goes 3-3 and they take him out like Willis Reed and mbe it'll be a better choice.

I feel like kd was bullied into playing. And while the injury might not have been directly related, when you have one weak part it causes you to do shit different. Having a broken finger, jaw, etc is worlds away from having a core injury or leg injury. It was just a bad look imo. I did not think he'd blow his shit out. That was a v unlikely outcome (at least expectation wise), but Kerr went on record like the worst that could happen was a tweak. Oops. They know they ****ed up and importantly they know they ****ed him.

But otoh if they pull this out he made a noble sacrifice even tho it wasn't worth it. Without KD playing and the morale they prol lose in 5. But I didn't get a chance to watch it yet had to get up early so just saw them balling early.

Tbh knowing kd blew his shit out and wars won I probably won't watch either.

-Smak
Wouldn't say bullied but of course he was pressured to play. Heavily pressured. By fans, by teammates, by society standards, by himself. But still, he wasn't forced, it's still his choice. And that's how it should be.

He could've taken the Kawhi route and chose not to play, and live with everyone's disappointments and not knowing what would've happened.

[HoopologyPhD]

No, high rewards for high risk.

If I was paid a cool million per ISH post but could possibly get carpal tunnel for life do you think I would quit this game?

[elementally morale]

No, high rewards for high risk.

If I was paid a cool million per ISH post but could possibly get carpal tunnel for life do you think I would quit this game?


Exactly the way I see it. It was risky but in the end the parties involved thought it was worth the risk. Noone died in the process. Durant will come back. He may or may not be the same, win again, etc. Sure. But it's still part of life.

We all win some and lose some. And when we lose that also makes us who we are. Who we will become. Durant should not regret a thing. He tried. good for him, he was in a position to be able to try. There are many many miserable people who really do have a hard time. What happened to Durant is sad but he will be fine. Top doctors will fix his leg. He will be able to walk. If anything, this injury helped his image.

[ILLsmak]

Wouldn't say bullied but of course he was pressured to play. Heavily pressured. By fans, by teammates, by society standards, by himself. But still, he wasn't forced, it's still his choice. And that's how it should be.

He could've taken the Kawhi route and chose not to play, and live with everyone's disappointments and not knowing what would've happened.

I don't know. When people publish articles with lines like sources, even teammates, are frustrated by how long its taking kd to come back and don't understand what's wrong. With Steve Kerr giving updates before every game. It made more sense with looney. Hup he's out. O wait he's gonna play.

It was his choice sure but if people pressure you enough, it can make you feel like you have to. Like you said Yea he could just be like kawhi and alienate his whole team end up getting traded, etc... (and make the finals prol winning a ring haha) is proof enough that it wasn't his choice.

I mean if it's me I'm like u hos can't handle this team w o me? Man up I'm cheering for u. It's like why do people confess to crimes they didn't do. Once you pressure someone, it isn't their choice. It's his choice if he's like I wanna play. I mean dudes really like think in the finals that the Dr's would be like nah u can't. It'd have to be a no question injury. Was that kd or looney who was out then got a "second opinion", when you think about it, that's kinda dubious sounding.

-Smak

[elementally morale]

It was his choice sure but if people pressure you enough, it can make you feel like you have to. Like you said Yea he could just be like kawhi and alienate his whole team end up getting traded, etc... (and make the finals prol winning a ring haha) is proof enough that it wasn't his choice.


Don't you think it helped Durant's deteriorating image? I think if he can use it properly he will come out on top of this situation. I also think both Grant Hill and Kobe profited as individuals from their injuries. Bill Walton made a career out of being Bill Walton. It would've been different had he been more healthy. Etc.

[ILLsmak]

Don't you think it helped Durant's deteriorating image? I think if he can use it properly he will come out on top of this situation. I also think both Grant Hill and Kobe profited as individuals from their injuries. Bill Walton made a career out of being Bill Walton. It would've been different had he been more healthy. Etc.

No.

They weren't in their prime coming off b2b titles on one of the greatest teams of all time.

If you're a kd hater, it makes it harder to hate him, sure, but I don't think he's like man I'm so glad I got an injury now I can rebuild my image.

-Smak

[elementally morale]

No.

They weren't in their prime coming off b2b titles on one of the greatest teams of all time.

If you're a kd hater, it makes it harder to hate him, sure, but I don't think he's like man I'm so glad I got an injury now I can rebuild my image.

-Smak


I agree. Right now he doesn't know it could do good for him. But on the one hand he is young in this regard (yes, 30 is young) and on the other hand he is too close to the situation to see it clearly.

I may be wrong but I think a big part of Charles Barkley's later success in life (him being Chuck) is directly related to him never having won a ring. A 'champion Barkley' is not Barkley. It's like a modest Shaq.

[Kblaze8855]

Bill Walton was considering suicide from his various injuries.

Have you ever seen Bill Walton in person? I have. And he was a wreck then...20 years ago.

I dont think we need to wonder if hes better off healthy just because he managed to survive it.

[Overdrive]

Don't you think it helped Durant's deteriorating image? I think if he can use it properly he will come out on top of this situation. I also think both Grant Hill and Kobe profited as individuals from their injuries. Bill Walton made a career out of being Bill Walton. It would've been different had he been more healthy. Etc.

Health trumps everything. Not even close.

[NBAGOAT]

grant could've definitely been an all time great if his career arc was normal. I'm sure he doesnt regret playing in an unwinnable series for a team he was leaving next year anyway...

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

During the hearing, Cuban and Nelson gave their versions of how their relationship unraveled, beginning with their disagreement over whether star forward Dirk Nowitzki should play against the San Antonio Spurs in the sixth game of the 2003 Western Conference finals.

Nelson withheld Nowitzki, who had suffered a knee injury earlier in the series, despite Cuban's entreaties to play him. The Mavericks lost the game and the series.

Cuban testified that he had assurances from team doctors that Nowitzki couldn't hurt the knee any worse and believed Nelson was trying to take pressure off himself by keeping the player on the bench. Nelson testified that he had a similar injury when he was a player and worried that playing Nowitzki could have a long-term effect.

"I didn't want to jeopardize this great young player's career for a basketball game, no matter how important it seemed at the time," Nelson testified.

Cuban said in his testimony that there had been medical advances for such injuries since Nelson played, which was from 1962-76.

I think Kerr should have probably done the same as what Nelson did. Dirk was upset that he wasn't allowed to play even though he thought he was ready.

It obviously worked out for Dirk. But there are risks every time an athlete steps on the court.

[Kblaze8855]

I thought of Dirk earlier when Webber came to mind. They sat Dirk but Webber played and tore up his knee. Webber had been saying the knee hurt all year. They would sit him down with the bad knee...he comes back and plays 44, 40, 46, and 47 minutes in 4 straight games in the regular season.

They just...didnt take care of people back then. And we called it tough...but we were wrong. That mentality ruined a lot of teams and careers.

[Cleverness]

Fantastic takes from Jalen Rose and Matt Barnes. Very well worth a listen.

https://twitter.com/FirstTake/status/1138461364542955522

https://www.instagram.com/p/Byl8sInAwwp/

[elementally morale]

I fully understand what you guys are saying about health being the most important. And it has changed with time, too. Think of warfare. It was different in the past... the individual soldier was looked at differently. While the goal remained (defeat the enemy) the way we look at war and especially the human aspect of it has changed a lot, along with society.

From a character point of view I'm more like Kawhi. If I don't feel fine I wouldn't play. I'm stubborn, too. So a few talking heads in the media would not convince me. And yeah, I think I'd be called a coward... but I don't care.

The best players I've ever played with were all risk takers though. One of them got to the NBA. Some of them suffered injuries and became civilians later on. I was fast in realizing I would never make a very good player due to lack of competitive spirit (and not out of this world talent).

We can all blame the fans, the media, teammates and organizations. But at the end of the day, players still make their own decisions. KD had much to gain. It didn't turn out well. Okay, players in the future will sure take this injury into account when arriving at their own decisions. It's a process. I trust it.

[iamgine]

I don't know. When people publish articles with lines like sources, even teammates, are frustrated by how long its taking kd to come back and don't understand what's wrong. With Steve Kerr giving updates before every game. It made more sense with looney. Hup he's out. O wait he's gonna play.

It was his choice sure but if people pressure you enough, it can make you feel like you have to. Like you said Yea he could just be like kawhi and alienate his whole team end up getting traded, etc... (and make the finals prol winning a ring haha) is proof enough that it wasn't his choice.

I mean if it's me I'm like u hos can't handle this team w o me? Man up I'm cheering for u. It's like why do people confess to crimes they didn't do. Once you pressure someone, it isn't their choice. It's his choice if he's like I wanna play. I mean dudes really like think in the finals that the Dr's would be like nah u can't. It'd have to be a no question injury. Was that kd or looney who was out then got a "second opinion", when you think about it, that's kinda dubious sounding.

-Smak
What kind of mentality is this for a grown man? Sure if you put pressure like a loaded gun to his family member then yes we can reasonably say it's not his choice. But the kind of pressure KD was subjected to, still fully his choice.

[elementally morale]

There are lots of cars on the road. And there are accidents, even fatal ones. So we improve our cars and improve our healthcare.... but there are accidents, injuries and deaths still.

You can play it safe. Moving to an environment where not much if any driving is needed. Sure, you will pay the price of playing it safe... but there is always a price to pay. Now you can come to me and say: Hey, driving is not my decision. I have kids and a workplace to get to. Etc. I say: it's still your decision. What price are you willing to pay and what risk are you willing to take?

This whole getting into the NBA and become a star thing is a huge risk in itself. Even without any injuries. You put the amount of work into something else... you will become great at that stuff. No, you are not pressured to make the NBA any more than you are pressured to do anything with your life.

Some of the time things just go wrong. If nothing ever went wrong everyone would become Bill Gates and Michael Jordan. Not happening.

[TheMan]

Rose got a ton of shit from the hacks here, it was disgusting, even supposed Bulls fans turned on him...I never did though, an athlete knows his body and we should respect his decision if he feels he hasn't healed yet.

[Stringer Bell]

Franco Harris was known to run out of bounds rather than lowering his shoulder, sacrificing his body for an extra yard or two.

He got a lot of criticism for being "soft", and was often raped in the lockeroom because of it, but his strategy without a doubt extended his hall of fame career.

Much of that criticism came from Jim Brown.

NFL Network did an 100 greatest players list in 2010, and Jim Brown was still taking shots at Franco Harris, although he didn’t specifically say his name this time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfFE5Ou0Txo&t=2m23s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfFE5Ou0Txo&t=3m3s

But he’s always knocking Franco.