For those that put Dirk Nowitzki ahead of KG

[Vino24]

Why do you do it? I think as far as player comparisons these two are as close as you can get

[dazzer87]

2011 > 2008

[Vino24]

2011 > 2008
KG overall was much more dominant in his prime

[ILLsmak]

Why do you do it? I think as far as player comparisons these two are as close as you can get

Dirk is like dwade in that if you really rate him highly you base it on one run. That shit in 11 was better than anything kg did. But kg is probably a better player year by year.

-Smak

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk is like dwade in that if you really rate him highly you base it on one run. That shit in 11 was better than anything kg did. But kg is probably a better player year by year.

-Smak

dirk been better every single year since 04-05 dawg


hard to make such a claim


better watch yo mouf dawg

-smak

[superduper]

Dirk had one of the best playoff runs of all time.

[MrFonzworth]

dirk been better every single year since 04-05 dawg


hard to make such a claim


better watch yo mouf dawg

-smak
ArbitraryCringe back at it again

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

I believe it is easier to fill out a team with complimentary players who can do some of the little things than it is to find a true lead option.

Others may disagree and I am fine with that.

[FromDowntown]

This is a tough one because KG was so great on the defensive end and Dirk was so great on the offensive end. If I had to pick, gun to my head, I'd say Dirk, by a German nose hair.

[stalkerforlife]

The most important thing for a real superstar is carrying a team offensively.

Not just scoring, but creating offense for the entire team by drawing multiple defenders.

This is elementary.

[Smoke117]

The most important thing for a real superstar is carrying a team offensively.

Not just scoring, but creating offense for the entire team by drawing multiple defenders.

This is elementary.

So like how KG carried the Twolves for an entire decade? Their peak impact offensively is pretty similar because of KG's great play making. The difference he was also a top 5 defensive player in the world throughout his career.

[stalkerforlife]

So like how KG carried the Twolves for an entire decade? Their peak impact offensively is pretty similar because of KG's great play making. The difference he was also a top 5 defensive player in the world throughout his career.

KG couldn't carry a team offensively on a title team.

He won one with a super team because Pierce was the go to player when the team desperately needed offense.

KG is not that dude.

This is elementary understanding.

He had a great mid range J and a turn around in the post; he didn't have elite offensive moves that are needed in desperate times.

Grow up.

[Smoke117]

KG couldn't carry a team offensively on a title team.

He won one with a super team because Pierce was the go to player when the team desperately needed offense.

KG is not that dude.

This is elementary understanding.

He had a great mid range J and a turn around in the post; he didn't have elite offensive moves that are needed in desperate times.

Grow up.

That's why KG led the team in scoring throughout the 2008 playoffs?

[stalkerforlife]

That's why KG led the team in scoring throughout the 2008 playoffs?

3rd leading scorer in the finals.

Boston did it by committee.

Dirk did it without another all-star.

Against a prime super team.

[FKAri]

Dirk's better but if I'm building a super team I'd take KG along with guys like Pippen. You pair them with a superstar scorer and you have a dynasty. But superstar scorer's don't grow on trees.

Also, Dirk got to the finals twice with 2 completely different squads, 5 years apart, from the West, and even won one of them. That's impressive.

[FireDavidKahn]

It's whatever. Dirk led his team to a championship (although KG was the best player on the Celtics title run) so he gets a huge nod for that.

Garnett get's underrated because he never won a ring here. You put him with a competent FO and he'd probably have won multiple titles. It may be sacrilege to some but if you swapped KG and Tim Duncan then KG probably ends up the best PF ever.

For a candidate of a GOAT pf he definitely could have been more clutch and dominant on offense (keep in mind this is compared to other GOAT pf's). But with Parker and Manu taking up that role and Garnett providing GOAT team defense....:eek:

In today's day and age his peak would basically Davis while playing GOAT defense.

[SouBeachTalents]

Of all the ATG discussions, I think this is the most debatable one. They're such different players and offer such different strengths to their team, there's legitimate arguments to be made for one or the other

[Phoenix]

Wherever you rank one, the other should be immediately behind him. That's how close I think they are when you take the totality of their careers into context.

[brain drain]

It's whatever. Dirk led his team to a championship (although KG was the best player on the Celtics title run) so he gets a huge nod for that.

Garnett get's underrated because he never won a ring here. You put him with a competent FO and he'd probably have won multiple titles. It may be sacrilege to some but if you swapped KG and Tim Duncan then KG probably ends up the best PF ever.

For a candidate of a GOAT pf he definitely could have been more clutch and dominant on offense (keep in mind this is compared to other GOAT pf's). But with Parker and Manu taking up that role and Garnett providing GOAT team defense....:eek:

In today's day and age his peak would basically Davis while playing GOAT defense.


If Garnett's defense was "GOAT-level", we should've seen an effect on Dirk in the 2002 playoffs when they played each other. We didn't.

And AD is on a different level compared to KG as far as offensive output is concerned. Just check their TS% (esp. in playoffs) and volume.

IMO, KG is overrated, because he's one of the guys who did a lot of things pretty well, filled up the stat sheet, but didn't do anything well enough to really mess up the other team's game plan by himself.

Dirk's combination of size and shooting ability was able to do that, he pulled bigs from under the basket and opened lanes for his teammates that way.

You could get non-superstar players which replicated the facets of Garnett's game. His contributions could be provided by a committee of good role players / borderline stars. But you couldn't get non-superstar players who could replicate Dirk's effect on opposing defenses.

And that's ultimately why Dirk managed to get to the finals twice without other all stars while Garnett needed a super team.

[SamuraiSWISH]

If Garnett's defense was "GOAT-level", we should've seen an effect on Dirk in the 2002 playoffs when they played each other. We didn't.

And AD is on a different level compared to KG as far as offensive output is concerned. Just check their TS% (esp. in playoffs) and volume.

IMO, KG is overrated, because he's one of the guys who did a lot of things pretty well, filled up the stat sheet, but didn't do anything well enough to really mess up the other team's game plan by himself.

Dirk's combination of size and shooting ability was able to do that, he pulled bigs from under the basket and opened lanes for his teammates that way.

You could get non-superstar players which replicated the facets of Garnett's game. His contributions could be provided by a committee of good role players / borderline stars. But you couldn't get non-superstar players who could replicate Dirk's effect on opposing defenses.

And that's ultimately why Dirk managed to get to the finals twice without other all stars while Garnett needed a super team.
You must have missed what Garnett did with old Spreewell, Wally Szerbiak, Troy Hudson and old Sam Cassel ...

If that team was in the East they

[superduper]

If Garnett's defense was "GOAT-level", we should've seen an effect on Dirk in the 2002 playoffs when they played each other. We didn't.

And AD is on a different level compared to KG as far as offensive output is concerned. Just check their TS% (esp. in playoffs) and volume.

IMO, KG is overrated, because he's one of the guys who did a lot of things pretty well, filled up the stat sheet, but didn't do anything well enough to really mess up the other team's game plan by himself.

Dirk's combination of size and shooting ability was able to do that, he pulled bigs from under the basket and opened lanes for his teammates that way.

You could get non-superstar players which replicated the facets of Garnett's game. His contributions could be provided by a committee of good role players / borderline stars. But you couldn't get non-superstar players who could replicate Dirk's effect on opposing defenses.

And that's ultimately why Dirk managed to get to the finals twice without other all stars while Garnett needed a super team.

This is the right answer. I don't even like AD and I can admit it's foolish to even compare Garnett's offensive to AD's. As a defense first player IRL it pains me to say that Dirk's offensive impact was greater than Garnett's defensive impact. Dirk proved he could carry role players, Garnett needed Pierce and Ray.

[DMAVS41]

If Garnett's defense was "GOAT-level", we should've seen an effect on Dirk in the 2002 playoffs when they played each other. We didn't.

And AD is on a different level compared to KG as far as offensive output is concerned. Just check their TS% (esp. in playoffs) and volume.

IMO, KG is overrated, because he's one of the guys who did a lot of things pretty well, filled up the stat sheet, but didn't do anything well enough to really mess up the other team's game plan by himself.

Dirk's combination of size and shooting ability was able to do that, he pulled bigs from under the basket and opened lanes for his teammates that way.

You could get non-superstar players which replicated the facets of Garnett's game. His contributions could be provided by a committee of good role players / borderline stars. But you couldn't get non-superstar players who could replicate Dirk's effect on opposing defenses.

And that's ultimately why Dirk managed to get to the finals twice without other all stars while Garnett needed a super team.

This is simply false.

KG's defense absolutely is GOAT level as there are maybe a handful of guys, if that, you'd take over him on defense.

What you are rightly speaking to is that individual offensive greatness, as in all-time great offense, trumps the impact of individual defensive greatness.

This is a total toss up and is often unfair to KG because while Dirk didn't play with great help or consistent championship level help throughout his career, he clearly had way better help in his prime/peak years than KG did.

And while I would draft Dirk to start a team over KG, I think the above severe discrepancy in help causes many to undervalue KG.

Statistically and impact wise...strictly on court stuff and not rings/accolades...etc...KG probably has a case for top 10 all time. Again, I don't agree with that because I think an analysis like that is somewhat limited and lacking context, but it certainly isn't meaningless.

For example, the Backpicks list has KG at 8 and Dirk at 18. Again, I don't agree, but any notion that it is clear cut in favor of Dirk is just wrong.

[Vino24]

This is the right answer. I don't even like AD and I can admit it's foolish to even compare Garnett's offensive to AD's. As a defense first player IRL it pains me to say that Dirk's offensive impact was greater than Garnett's defensive impact. Dirk proved he could carry role players, Garnett needed Pierce and Ray.
Garnett played with absolute shit for the majority of his career till he was out of his prime :biggums:

[FireDavidKahn]

If Garnett's defense was "GOAT-level", we should've seen an effect on Dirk in the 2002 playoffs when they played each other. We didn't.

And AD is on a different level compared to KG as far as offensive output is concerned. Just check their TS% (esp. in playoffs) and volume.

IMO, KG is overrated, because he's one of the guys who did a lot of things pretty well, filled up the stat sheet, but didn't do anything well enough to really mess up the other team's game plan by himself.

Dirk's combination of size and shooting ability was able to do that, he pulled bigs from under the basket and opened lanes for his teammates that way.

You could get non-superstar players which replicated the facets of Garnett's game. His contributions could be provided by a committee of good role players / borderline stars. But you couldn't get non-superstar players who could replicate Dirk's effect on opposing defenses.

And that's ultimately why Dirk managed to get to the finals twice without other all stars while Garnett needed a super team.
Thanks for admitting you never watched his peak.:lol

But even as a KG fan, Dirk deservedly gets ranked above him for winning a title as the man even though I think KG is the better player.

[FireDavidKahn]

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]You must have missed what Garnett did with old Spreewell, Wally Szerbiak, Troy Hudson and old Sam Cassel ...

If that team was in the East they

[FireDavidKahn]

This is the right answer. I don't even like AD and I can admit it's foolish to even compare Garnett's offensive to AD's. As a defense first player IRL it pains me to say that Dirk's offensive impact was greater than Garnett's defensive impact. Dirk proved he could carry role players, Garnett needed Pierce and Ray.
You're solely using TS% to compare the two? Put him in this era and his TS% goes up. :oldlol:

Why don't we compare the best 3 year stretch of KG to AD.

KG from 02-03 though 04-05: 28 PER, 55.5 TS%, 19.7 TRB%, 25.7 AST%, 2 STL%, 3.1 BLK%, 11.5 TOV%, 27.7 US%, 30.2 OWS, 19.8 DWS, 50 WS, .248 WS/48, 5.1 OBPM, 4.4 DBPM, 9.4 BPM, 28 VORP.

AD from 16-17 though 18-19: 28.7 PER, 59.6 TS%, 17.4 TRB%, 13 AST%, 1/9 STL%, 5.5 BLK%, 8.7 TOV%, 30.9 US%, 21.1 OWS, 13.1 DWS, 34.2 WS, .225 WS/48, 2.8 OBPM, 2.7 DBPM, 5.5 BPM, 13.7 VORP

[John8204]

Kevin Garnett was such a great two way player and he's becoming a bit underrated. But I have to give this to Dirk because he's in the 30K club and only 7 men are in it. I also think playing for one team and winning a ring is special and KG's Celtics really under-performed.