Kawhi surpassed LeBron [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

06-14-2019, 06:57 AM

This forum man:lol
Don't act like lebron is still the best player

lebron is old and missed the playoffs, while Kawhi just carried a non-superstar cast over the same Warriors that lebron thought he was goat for beating

You guys conflate physical talent with playing winning basketball

You forget that Lebron missed the playoffs with the East all-star center in 2005.. why does this matter? Because it shows lebron underachieved his whole career... Missed playoffs in 05'... Lost as favorite from 09-11' including debacles in 10' and 11'... Record defeat despite even odds in 14'.. more record losses in 17' and 18

That's an entire career of underachieving... Like, how could the greatest player ever team up with the next best player in the league and then lose in 2011? And be an underdog in 12'? Overall, lebron lost or was an underdog for 7 of 8 years alongside Wade/Bosh/Allen and Kyrie/Love ..

that's nowhere near goat...... Goat + 2 superstars = goat domination and winning...... not perennial loser/underdog status... So the equation is broken - apparently, Bron ain't goat..

Kingwillball

06-14-2019, 07:17 AM

Lebron is still better play now and was easily when they played head to head every finals somebody else won mvp Lebron lost he was clear cut best player on floor except Dallas series.

Andrei89

06-14-2019, 07:21 AM

Don't act like lebron is still the best player

lebron is old and missed the playoffs, while Kawhi just carried a non-superstar cast over the same Warriors that lebron thought he was goat for beating

You guys conflate physical talent with playing winning basketball

You forget that Lebron missed the playoffs with the East all-star center in 2005.. why does this matter? Because it shows lebron underachieved his whole career... Missed playoffs in 05'... Lost as favorite from 09-11' including debacles in 10' and 11'... Record defeat despite even odds in 14'.. more record losses in 17' and 18

That's an entire career of underachieving... Like, how could the greatest player ever team up with the next best player in the league and then lose in 2011? And be an underdog in 12'? Overall, lebron lost or was an underdog for 7 of 8 years alongside Wade/Bosh/Allen and Kyrie/Love ..

that's nowhere near goat...... Goat + 2 superstars = goat domination and winning...... not perennial loser/underdog status... So the equation is broken - apparently, Bron ain't goat..

Man stfu already you are embarassing yourself:lol :lol

Elosha

06-14-2019, 07:49 AM

Don't act like lebron is still the best player

lebron is old and missed the playoffs, while Kawhi just carried a non-superstar cast over the same Warriors that lebron thought he was goat for beating

You guys conflate physical talent with playing winning basketball

You forget that Lebron missed the playoffs with the East all-star center in 2005.. why does this matter? Because it shows lebron underachieved his whole career... Missed playoffs in 05'... Lost as favorite from 09-11' including debacles in 10' and 11'... Record defeat despite even odds in 14'.. more record losses in 17' and 18

That's an entire career of underachieving... Like, how could the greatest player ever team up with the next best player in the league and then lose in 2011? And be an underdog in 12'? Overall, lebron lost or was an underdog for 7 of 8 years alongside Wade/Bosh/Allen and Kyrie/Love ..

that's nowhere near goat...... Goat + 2 superstars = goat domination and winning...... not perennial loser/underdog status... So the equation is broken - apparently, Bron ain't goat..

Overall, these are good points, and indisputable facts. LeBron is an ATG, top 5-10. He's currently overrated by fans and media. A few years after he retires and nostalgia has worn off, his career will be looked at with more clear eyes and his overall ranking will be moved back to its appropriate place. Not a knock on him, just have to start looking at him objectively.

34-24 Footwork

06-14-2019, 08:18 AM

paksat

06-14-2019, 08:18 AM

Lebron is still better play now and was easily when they played head to head every finals somebody else won mvp Lebron lost he was clear cut best player on floor except Dallas series.

durant was better in 17 at the very least

hell kyrie was better despite what the stats on paper tell you

Kingwillball

06-14-2019, 08:46 AM

durant was better in 17 at the very least

hell kyrie was better despite what the stats on paper tell you

No wrong.. KD plays on cheese team the cheese finally went bad last night... warriors dynasty is over mercifully.

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 08:56 AM

No wrong.. KD plays on cheese team the cheese finally went bad last night... warriors dynasty is over mercifully.

Durant and Kawhi are both ahead of him.

Kingwillball

06-14-2019, 09:17 AM

Durant and Kawhi are both ahead of him.

No they aren

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 09:23 AM

[QUOTE=Kingwillball]No they aren

Vino24

06-14-2019, 09:24 AM

Nah, Lebron would have lost to the Warriors and you would have slammed the board with cries about the warriors being stacked. As it is, Kawhi has overtaken your hero. Deal with it.
2016 happened baby boy. Seems like you can

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 09:25 AM

[QUOTE=Vino24]2016 happened baby boy. Seems like you can

Kingwillball

06-14-2019, 09:26 AM

Nah, Lebron would have lost to the Warriors and you would have slammed the board with cries about the warriors being stacked. As it is, Kawhi has overtaken your hero. Deal with it.

Dude Kawai had 3 subpar games out of 6 in finals... he is not Lebron scoring and def not as good passing or rebounding. His D is better at this point but even that wasn

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 09:28 AM

[QUOTE=Kingwillball]Dude Kawai had 3 subpar games out of 6 in finals... he is not Lebron scoring and def not as good passing or rebounding. His D is better at this point but even that wasn

Kingwillball

06-14-2019, 09:31 AM

"Wasnt amazing". Compared to lebron's defense, it is amazing. Which is why his impact his so high. 29 and 10 on 60%ts is not subpar. And Kawhi's impact is noticeable on defense a lot more than it is on offense.

Kawhi is very solid at the 3 spot sorry that

ArbitraryWater

06-14-2019, 09:40 AM

Nah, Lebron would have lost to the Warriors and you would have slammed the board with cries about the warriors being stacked. As it is, Kawhi has overtaken your hero. Deal with it.

Jeez what happened to you :oldlol:

No more facts, honest evaluation.

No one was bullet proof enough these playoffs to overtake LeBron, get near his last year play

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 09:44 AM

[QUOTE=Kingwillball]Kawhi is very solid at the 3 spot sorry that

Kingwillball

06-14-2019, 09:51 AM

I dont think he's better than prime Lebron and never said that was. That wasnt my argument because that's crazy. That's a straw man. But it is inarguable that hes better than Lebron at the moment. The only people who would disagree are kids (see the one above me) who only started watching basketball recently and dont know much about it besides stanning lebron.

Well I

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 09:55 AM

[QUOTE=Kingwillball]Well I

Kingwillball

06-14-2019, 09:59 AM

You're telling me that you honestly believe that at this moment in time (June 2019), Lebron is a better player than Kawhi Leonard? And you say that you know basketball?

I'm not sure I even know how to respond to that.

Absolutely he is ..your saying that cause he is out of sight out of mind but Lebron was better in finals against warriors last year. Better numbers and without KD would of averaged 35,12,10 in this years finals if u swapped him with Kahwi

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 10:03 AM

Absolutely he is ..your saying that cause he is out of sight out of mind but Lebron was better in finals against warriors last year. Better numbers and without KD would of averaged 35,12,10 in this years finals if u swapped him with Kahwi

You're*
Because*

I'm not saying that. And you're making the same mistake. Putting up box score numbers while playing no defense and getting torched by your opposition matchup doesn't mean you had a better performance. Kawhi's impact is higher. We don't need to resort to looking at how many rebounds and assist Kawhi gets to see his impact. To people like you, Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman would be considered scrubs. Basketball is about impact. Why is it that Kawhi has been able to take a team with literally no other superstar and torch the Warriors and end their dynasty, while Lebron had trouble with teams stacked with superstars?

Before you waste my time with the predictable Lebron stan response about the superstars not playing up to par, ask yourself why that's the case? Why did Bosh regress with Lebron? Why did Love regress with Lebron? Who on the Raptors is even close to Irving?

The Iron Fist

06-14-2019, 10:04 AM

[QUOTE=Kingwillball]No they aren

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 10:05 AM

Lebron cant even make the playoffs.

Lebron wouldn't have been able to beat this Warriors team with the same supporting cast that Kawhi had. I think that's the better argument.

PP34Deuce

06-14-2019, 10:07 AM

Kawhi contested shots even though Iggy was scoring on him. Lebron doesn't really contest and that's more being lazy than anything.

All time Kawhi is not greater than lebron james.

2019 lebron was backend top 10. In a playoff setting I'd say only Kevin Durant is clear cut better than others now

PP34Deuce

06-14-2019, 10:09 AM

Lebron wouldn't have been able to beat this Warriors team with the same supporting cast that Kawhi had. I think that's the better argument.

Hypotheticals...

Shooters
Defenders that can take his assignment

Kawhi literally didn't have to play defense as crucial. Lowry and vanfleet played better defense relative to their position.

I love Kawhi but even 2019 lebron with no kd to worry about and this Toronto team would have a high chance of winning the series.

Vino24

06-14-2019, 10:10 AM

Can't pass LeBron if you don't pass Kobe first

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 10:17 AM

Hypotheticals...

Shooters
Defenders that can take his assignment

Kawhi literally didn't have to play defense as crucial. Lowry and vanfleet played better defense relative to their position.

I love Kawhi but even 2019 lebron with no kd to worry about and this Toronto team would have a high chance of winning the series.

"Relative to their position" means nothing. Kawhi was brilliant defensively. 2019 Lebron would not have been able to win without another all star. The only time he beat the KD-less warriors was when Kyrie Ircing averaged 28 ppg and hit the championship winner on an isolation, in a Cavs team that was stacked with superstars.

Vino24

06-14-2019, 10:19 AM

"Relative to their position" means nothing. Kawhi was brilliant defensively. 2019 Lebron would not have been able to win without another all star. The only time he beat the KD-less warriors was when Kyrie Ircing averaged 28 ppg and hit the championship winner on an isolation, in a Cavs team that was stacked with superstars.
LeBron would have destroyed this Warriors team

Kingwillball

06-14-2019, 10:20 AM

Kingwillball

06-14-2019, 10:23 AM

Lebron wouldn't have been able to beat this Warriors team with the same supporting cast that Kawhi had. I think that's the better argument.

Lol r u f&ckin moron or what I just said they had 2nd best record in league with no Kahwi or Lowry for 42 gms this year combined. Same raps team Lebron dismantled year after year remind you.. with that said Lebron would of averaged 32-35,12,10 in 5 game series win with shooters around him..

The Iron Fist

06-14-2019, 11:14 AM

Lebron wouldn't have been able to beat this Warriors team with the same supporting cast that Kawhi had. I think that's the better argument.
Even with a better cast hes not a guaranteed win. We have already seen that happen.

TheMan

06-14-2019, 11:16 AM

[QUOTE=Inferno]Lets be honest, we know you

sdot_thadon

06-14-2019, 11:27 AM

Overall, these are good points, and indisputable facts. LeBron is an ATG, top 5-10. He's currently overrated by fans and media. A few years after he retires and nostalgia has worn off, his career will be looked at with more clear eyes and his overall ranking will be moved back to its appropriate place. Not a knock on him, just have to start looking at him objectively.
That's the dream scenario for detractors anyway isn't it? Hope that time will do the job hating can't? I'm not sure it's going to go the way you think. The one thing Lebron's haters are blinded by is the boy has accomplished some incredible feats. some won't be matched for a long while and some that won't likely ever be replicated. His legacy will age just fine, in fact the best thing will be once his career is over and people can objectively appreciate his body of work instead of combating the popular opinion day in and day out. We seem to forget that everything Mj did wasn't fully appreciated until he was gone and the same will happen for Lebron because frankly he's no Kobe.

ArbitraryWater

06-14-2019, 12:37 PM

[QUOTE=Inferno]Lets be honest, we know you

TheMan

06-14-2019, 12:41 PM

u always been a GOAT warriors fan

a real one

these clowns laughing now but

i fear even 17 year bron next year could be the top playoff performer, and thats scary
:roll:

When he fails yet again you'll have an excuse at the ready :lol

Let's see him lead a team to the playoffs out west first before you start sucking his dikk

AD and Kawhi, LBJ needs MOAR help!!!

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 12:42 PM

LeBron would have destroyed this Warriors team

He would have lost to them, as he often does. (Except for the time that his 27 ppg sidekick isolated the unanimous MVP and scored the title winning shot in the latter's face)

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 12:43 PM

[QUOTE=Kingwillball]Lebron would of beat Warriors in 5 with same Toronto team don

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 12:44 PM

That's the dream scenario for detractors anyway isn't it? Hope that time will do the job hating can't? I'm not sure it's going to go the way you think. The one thing Lebron's haters are blinded by is the boy has accomplished some incredible feats. some won't be matched for a long while and some that won't likely ever be replicated. His legacy will age just fine, in fact the best thing will be once his career is over and people can objectively appreciate his body of work instead of combating the popular opinion day in and day out. We seem to forget that everything Mj did wasn't fully appreciated until he was gone and the same will happen for Lebron because frankly he's no Kobe.

MJ was widely considered the greatest player of all time by general consensus even while he was playing. He was revered. So your last point just doesnt reflect reality.

TheMan

06-14-2019, 12:47 PM

MJ was widely considered the greatest player of all time by general consensus even while he was playing. He was revered. So your last point just doesnt reflect reality.
Yup, he was already regarded as the GOAT by the end of his first threepeat...the second threepeat just solidified it.

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 12:48 PM

Yup, he was already regarded as the GOAT by the end of his threepeat...the second threepeat just solidified it.

By the 1993 playoffs. Yes.

sdot_thadon

06-14-2019, 01:54 PM

MJ was widely considered the greatest player of all time by general consensus even while he was playing. He was revered. So your last point just doesnt reflect reality.
Except i was there when it happened and as his career ended it was nothing like the ghost story you see smeared on the walls of ISH by people who weren't exactly old enough to process the shit when it happened. I considered him goat at that moment and many others did as well. But guys who thought Wilt or Russell was goat at that moment still feel that way today, same for Kareem etc. What time did for Mj was airbrush any warts from his career, which amazingly works that way for everyone. :applause:

eliteballer

06-14-2019, 01:56 PM

Very astute observation OP:applause:

RealSkipBayless

06-14-2019, 01:56 PM

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 02:16 PM

Except i was there when it happened and as his career ended it was nothing like the ghost story you see smeared on the walls of ISH by people who weren't exactly old enough to process the shit when it happened. I considered him goat at that moment and many others did as well. But guys who thought Wilt or Russell was goat at that moment still feel that way today, same for Kareem etc. What time did for Mj was airbrush any warts from his career, which amazingly works that way for everyone. :applause:

So you say. It sounds to me as though you weren't even alive when he retired from the Bulls. He was already heralded as the greatest ever (the "ghost story) by the 93 playoffs, as multiple people have pointed out. And nobody who was watching back then would be confused about this.

sdot_thadon

06-14-2019, 02:23 PM

So you say. It sounds to me as though you weren't even alive when he retired from the Bulls. He was already heralded as the greatest ever (the "ghost story) by the 93 playoffs, as multiple people have pointed out. And nobody who was watching back then would be confused about this.
You seem confused, no place in my post did i say he wasn't considered goat by many. He actually got goat talk immediately after winning his 1st title, it's the whole reason the 6 rings slant is crap. The ghost story i refer to is the whole had no flaw line of thinking. He was flawed like any player, times have changed and we focus just as much on flaw as greatness.

Mr Feeny

06-14-2019, 02:30 PM

You seem confused, no place in my post did i say he wasn't considered goat by many. He actually got goat talk immediately after winning his 1st title, it's the whole reason the 6 rings slant is crap. The ghost story i refer to is the whole had no flaw line of thinking. He was flawed like any player, times have changed and we focus just as much on flaw as greatness.

Ofcourse he was. Every player is. That's hyperbole from stans. But that exists at all times. Hardcore stans of current players similarly pretend that they're favourites are flawless. One specific player comes to mind.

sdot_thadon

06-14-2019, 02:43 PM

Ofcourse he was. Every player is. That's hyperbole from stans. But that exists at all times. Hardcore stans of current players similarly pretend that they're favourites are flawless. One specific player comes to mind.
No need to beat around the bush, but I'm 99.9% certain they are reacting the same way I and any Mj fanatic would have if anyone was hating on MJ's every breath the way guys do now in his heyday. Everyone wants to drop a hot take and it's to the point of stupidity in most cases. Other than that i sorta agree with your post.