LeBron is 2nd all-time in career PER. Anthony Davis is 3rd all-time. Best duo ever?

[Poetry]

Let's say you're only evaluating them from a talent standpoint.

Where does LeBrow rank among the greatest duos of all-time?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

AD is #2 all-time in playoff points per game with 30.5 PPG (13 game sample*). LeBron is #6 with 28.92.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career_p.html

[Manny98]

On paper yes

[warriorfan]

:lebronamazed:


:roll:

[MaxPlayer]

Probably.

It's funny, pretty much all of the other possibilities have also been Lakers:

Wilt/Jerry
Magic/Kareem
Shaq/Kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

you just gave the make-up of warriorfan's debate material for YEARS....


he's happy af right now



:lebronamazed:


:roll:

[Smoke117]

Per lol. One of the stupidest and most overrated of the advanced stats.

[LAmbruh]

"Anthony Davis is a scrub stat padder" :lol




"AS A FIRST OPTION, NOT A SECOND OPTION" :facepalm :no:

[Poetry]

One of the stupidest and most overrated of the advanced stats.

Even if we ignore the stats, they're an all-time duo from a talent standpoint. It's going to be interesting to see how they play together.

[Bankaii]

The only non-retarded thing OP said was "LeBrow".
I like it.

[3ball]

Each guy is flawed on their own, but perfect together - AD is too bird-fed/assisted, while Bron is too unassisted/ball-dominant for his position

I think it's the best duo ever on paper - and again, they appear to be a perfect match

[1987_Lakers]

Shaq and Kobe

[SomeBlackDude]

but what that spot up 3 do doe? 🤨

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem and Magic is still the cream of the crop.

[3ball]

I'd still go with magic/kareem or Shaq/Kobe

Lebron is inferior to those players, and is too old

[jstern]

Lebron can lead soup cans into playoffs, Finals. And he's playing with the 3rd player all time in PER? What's Davis VORP? I think for the first time ever Lebron finally has enough help.

[Mr Feeny]

Shaq and Kobe

Lebron is better than Shaq and Davis is so much better than Kobe.

[Mr Feeny]

I'd still go with magic/kareem or Shaq/Kobe

Lebron is inferior to those players, and is too old

Magic and Kareem maybe. But Lebron and Davis are so much better than the Shaq and O
Kobe duo simply because both of them are infinitely better than the version of Kobe that played with Shaq.

[1987_Lakers]

I never understood why some people have Kareem and Magic as the best duo ever. Do people realize that they never played together in their prime? By the time Magic peaked as a basketball player, Kareem wasn't even averaging 20 points a game, and from '83-'86 Kareem was only putting 22 a game and was always criticized for his lack of rebounding and defense. I mean, they are still a top 5 duo ever, but the greatest? Not even close.

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron is better than Shaq and Davis is so much better than Kobe.

Um, 2000-2002 Shaq not better than current LeBron? What the hell are you talking about? Shaq had one of the greatest peaks we have ever seen. We have never seen a duo as good as 2001 Shaq & Kobe.

[Mr Feeny]

I never understood why some people have Kareem and Magic as the best duo ever. Do people realize that they never played together in their prime? By the time Magic peaked as a basketball player, Kareem wasn't even averaging 20 points a game, and from '83-'86 Kareem was only putting 22 a game and was always criticized for his lack of rebounding and defense. I mean, they are still a top 5 duo ever, but the greatest? Not even close.

They might well be. They're definitely better than shaq and Kobe. As are Davis and Lebron.

[1987_Lakers]

They might well be. They're definitely better than shaq and Kobe. As are Davis and Lebron.

Sorry, 2001 & 2002 Shaq & Kobe are better than any version of Magic & Kareem, and it's not even close.

[Mr Feeny]

Um, 2000-2002 Shaq not better than current LeBron? What the hell are you talking about? Shaq had one of the all-time greatest peaks we have ever seen. We have never seen a duo as good as 2001 Shaq & Kobe.

Shaq played with Kobe till 2004 and by the end he wasnt the same player. If you're ending it at 2002, he is better than current lebron.

Either way, the difference between prime shaq and prime Davis is smaller than the difference between current lebron and that version of Kobe.
We've seen multiple duos greater than shaq and Kobe. Jordan and pippen. Magic and Kareem. Here is a third. Kobe was just not quite good enough to make that duo as great as some of these.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron is better than Shaq and Davis is so much better than Kobe.

dang u dumb

that shaq is better than this bron

[Mr Feeny]

Sorry, 2001 & 2002 Shaq & Kobe are better than any version of Magic & Kareem, and it's not even close.

Sorry. Both Kobe wasnt as great as either magic or Kareem. And the magic ad Kareem duo was much better than the shaq and Kobe one. A one man wrecking machine in Shaq carrying a 40% finals scorer in Kobe doesnt make a great duo.

[Mr Feeny]

dang u dumb

that shaq is better than this bron

You started watching basketball after lebron got traded to Miami. Let the adults speak.

[Glide2keva]

Useless stat

[1987_Lakers]

Shaq played with Kobe till 2004 and by the end he wasnt the same player. If you're ending it at 2002, he is better than current lebron.

Either way, the difference between prime shaq and prime Davis is smaller than the difference between current lebron and that version of Kobe.
We've seen multiple duos greater than shaq and Kobe. Jordan and pippen. Magic and Kareem. Here is a third. Kobe was just not quite good enough to make that duo as great as some of these.

No, if you are talking longevity then that is another story, but like I said, when the duos were at their peak when playing together, nobody touches Shaq & Kobe.

[ArbitraryWater]

You started watching basketball after lebron got traded to Miami. Let the adults speak.

dangit boy, u a dumb one

dumb dumb

[Mr Feeny]

dangit boy, u a dumb one

dumb dumb

Says the Iraqi who didnt know what a basketball looked like till 2011.

[1987_Lakers]

You started watching basketball after lebron got traded to Miami. Let the adults speak.

You are wrong, calling current LeBron better than peak Shaq is moronic.

[Mr Feeny]

No, if you are talking longevity then that is another story, but like I said, when the duos were at their peak when playing together, nobody touches Shaq & Kobe.

Sure they do. Magic and Kareem at their peaks were better. Jordan and pippen at their peaks were MUCH better. And lebron and Davis are better. Kobe was just a weak link.

[ArbitraryWater]

Says the Iraqi who didnt know what a basketball looked like till 2011.

dumb

[Mr Feeny]

You are wrong, calling current LeBron better than peak Shaq is moronic.

Nobody said that current lebron is better than peak lebron. I have already addressed this. Repeating the same mistake wont help your case.

[The Iron Fist]

No, if you are talking longevity then that is another story, but like I said, when the duos were at their peak when playing together, nobody touches Shaq & Kobe.
They went to 7 games with the Blazers and Kings. They weren

[Mr Feeny]

dumb

Is the Iraqi.

[sdot_thadon]

If they were both in their prime sure, but you knew that befoe you asked op.....:oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron is better than Shaq and Davis is so much better than Kobe.
:roll: This dude saying a 35 year old LeBron is better than peak Shaq.

[Mr Feeny]

[QUOTE=The Iron Fist]They went to 7 games with the Blazers and Kings. They weren

[ArbitraryWater]

:roll: This dude saying a 35 year old LeBron is better than peak Shaq.

he dumb fo sho

[Mr Feeny]

:roll: This dude saying a 35 year old LeBron is better than peak Shaq.

Riiighhht. That's clearly what this says.

[Mr Feeny]

he dumb fo sho

Iraqis cant spell.

[3ball]

Magic and Kareem maybe. But Lebron and Davis are so much better than the Shaq and O
Kobe duo simply because both of them are infinitely better than the version of Kobe that played with Shaq.
I'd take 01 and 02 Kobe ahead of current lebron (and probably any version).. Lebron's skill requires him to hold the ball longer and reduce guys to spot-up shooters, so he needs a lot more help than Kobe did

otoh, Kobe had better skill that fit with any teammate or system, so he needed less help.. I'd also take Kobe easily in a game of 1-on-1 over bron

Lebron's plays like the typical playground star that dribbles forever before doing anything.. the guy plays a version of harden-ball, yet we wonder why he's 3/9 on the championship level...

[ArbitraryWater]

I'd take 01 and 02 Kobe ahead of current lebron (and probably any version).. Lebron's skill requires him to hold the ball longer and reduce guys to spot-up shooters, so he needs a lot more help than Kobe did

otoh, Kobe had better skill that fit with any teammate or system, so he needed less help.. I'd also take Kobe easily in a game of 1-on-1 over bron

Lebron's plays like the typical playground star that dribbles forever before doing anything.. the guy plays a version of harden-ball, yet we wonder why he's 3/9 on the championship level...

:lol

[1987_Lakers]

They went to 7 games with the Blazers and Kings. They weren’t entirely unbeatable. Be reasonable. People go with Kareem and Magic because they blended together better. There was no drama, just a common goal.

Blazers? To be fair, Kobe didn't enter his prime until 2001. Notice I said that nobody touches the 2001 and 2002 Shaq-Kobe duo.

As far the Kings series in 2002, you have to realize that as a team the Lakers were nowhere near as talented as the 80's Lakers. With the 2002 Lakers it wasn't pretty much Shaq & Kobe, so of course their team will be more vulnerable.

Magic & Kareem on the other hand played with studs. We are talking about James Worthy who is in the HOF, Byron Scott, DPOY Michael Cooper, guys like Norm Nixon, Wilkes, Bob McAdoo. They were loaded.

[The Iron Fist]

I'd take 01 and 02 Kobe ahead of current lebron (and probably any version).. Lebron's skill requires him to hold the ball longer and reduce guys to spot-up shooters, so he needs a lot more help than Kobe did

otoh, Kobe had better skill that fit with any teammate or system, so he needed less help.. I'd also take Kobe easily in a game of 1-on-1 over bron

Lebron's plays like the typical playground star that dribbles forever before doing anything.. the guy plays a version of harden-ball, yet we wonder why he's 3/9 on the championship level...
Thread is stupid to begin with. Not even a single game together and already the best duo ever? These two aren

[Mr Feeny]

I'd take 01 and 02 Kobe ahead of current lebron (and probably any version).. Lebron's skill requires him to hold the ball longer and reduce guys to spot-up shooters, so he needs a lot more help than Kobe did

otoh, Kobe had better skill that fit with any teammate or system, so he needed less help.. I'd also take Kobe easily in a game of 1-on-1 over bron

Lebron's plays like the typical playground star that dribbles forever before doing anything.. the guy plays a version of harden-ball, yet we wonder why he's 3/9 on the championship level...

His defense has fallen but hes still more efficient than that version of Kobe. I also dont think that he will hog the ball and have as high a usage rate this year with Davis there. I have no way of knowing that so we will wait and see. But I think you'll see a different version. Davis is an elite player and this might be the first time that Lebron has played with a better player. He wont mind deferring.

[The Iron Fist]

Blazers? To be fair, Kobe didn't enter his prime until 2001. Notice I said that nobody touches the 2001 and 2002 Shaq-Kobe duo.

As far the Kings series in 2002, you have to realize that as a team the Lakers were nowhere near as talented as the 80's Lakers. With the 2002 Lakers it wasn't pretty much Shaq & Kobe, so of course their team will be more vulnerable.

Magic & Kareem on the other hand played with studs. We are talking about James Worthy who is in the HOF, Byron Scott, DPOY Michael Cooper, guys like Norm Nixon, Wilkes, Bob McAdoo. They were loaded.
And still, they kept the team in order instead of having guys walk on eggshells. They were so bad they couldn’t even play together anymore. That’s ridiculous. But it’s better as a duo to fight each Other?:facepalm

[1987_Lakers]

And still, they kept the team in order instead of having guys walk on eggshells. They were so bad they couldn’t even play together anymore. That’s ridiculous. But it’s better as a duo to fight each Other?:facepalm

As far as what they produced on the basketball court in a 2 year period together, Kareem and Magic never got close to 2001 & 2002 Shaq/Kobe's level. This isn't even debatable. I'm not factoring in off the court stuff, that team still won 3 straight titles.

[Mr Feeny]

[QUOTE=The Iron Fist]And still, they kept the team in order instead of having guys walk on eggshells. They were so bad they couldn

[Mr Feeny]

As far as what they produced on the basketball court in a 2 year period together, Kareem and Magic never got close to 2001 & 2002 Shaq/Kobe's level. This isn't even debatable. I'm not factoring in off the court stuff, that team still won 3 straight titles.

You're right. It isnt debatable. The were much, much better. Mainly because both were better than Kobe.

[The Iron Fist]

As far as what they produced on the basketball court in a 2 year period together, Kareem and Magic never got close to 2001 & 2002 Shaq/Kobe's level. This isn't even debatable. I'm not factoring in off the court stuff, that team still won 3 straight titles.
You

[iamgine]

Best duo ever is Curry - Durant.

[1987_Lakers]

[QUOTE=The Iron Fist]You

[1987_Lakers]

Best duo ever is Curry - Durant.

They are right behind Shaq and Kobe.

[The Iron Fist]

You really gonna ignore how awful the 80's West was? It was a cakewalk every year to the Finals :oldlol:

2001 Postseason:
Shaq - 30/15/3/2
Kobe - 29/7/6/2/1

Go ahead, name one year where Magic and Kareem were this dominant together.
Which duo won more finals?

[iamgine]

They are right behind Shaq and Kobe.
I disagree but that's a fair opinion.

[1987_Lakers]

Which duo won more finals?

That's what I thought. You can't.

[3ball]

Not at all

[Mr Feeny]

That's what I thought. You can't.

He chewed you up and spat you out. And you're struggling to respond.

[1987_Lakers]

He chewed you up and spat you out. And you're struggling to respond.

Says the guy who thinks a 35 year old LeBron is better than peak Shaq. :roll:

[3ball]

His defense has fallen but hes still more efficient than that version of Kobe. I also dont think that he will hog the ball and have as high a usage rate this year with Davis there. I have no way of knowing that so we will wait and see. But I think you'll see a different version. Davis is an elite player and this might be the first time that Lebron has played with a better player. He wont mind deferring.
You don't seem to understand what usage is

Usage measures how often a player finished a possession - it simply measures shot attempts, FT's and turnovers - so JJ Redick could have the highest usage if he shot enough

And yes - the media ROUTINELY gets this wrong... Usage has nothing to do with how long a player has the ball (ball-domination)... Otoh, NBA.com tracks ball-domination with their time of possession stat (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season), which measures how long a player has the ball in their hands each game.. the top 30 for time of possession are all PG's (except lebron) because they bring the ball up court and run time-consuming screen rolls.. predictably, harden led in 2019 with 9.5 minutes per game.. lebron has the all-time record with 12.2 minutes in the 15' Finals, and 11.0 minutes in 2018 Finals.

lebron's ball-domination will likely increase alongside AD because AD isn't a ball-dominator and needs someone like lebron to feed him - it's a perfect match.. With lebron's previous super-teams, chemistry suffered because he was redundant/alongside other ball-dominators like Wade, Kyrie, and also PG Chalmers, who had a PG-time of possession too

Essentially, lebron becomes a 2nd player on the floor with a PG-level time of possession, which reduced teammates' time and assists compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups... With teammates getting less assists, the TEAM ranks low in assists and employs a low ball-movement brand that struggles on the championship level

Ultimately, lebron's weaker championship record didn't reflect lack of personal or supporting talent, but an approach to the game that didn't yield the best offenses, brand of ball, and teams of his era...

[Mr Feeny]

You don't seem to understand what usage is

Usage measures how often a player finished a possession - it simply measures shot attempts, FT's and turnovers - so JJ Redick could have the highest usage if he shot enough

And yes - the media ROUTINELY gets this wrong... Usage has nothing to do with how long a player has the ball (ball-domination)... Otoh, NBA.com tracks ball-domination with their time of possession stat (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season), which measures how long a player has the ball in their hands each game.. the top 30 for time of possession are all PG's (except lebron) because they bring the ball up court and run time-consuming screen rolls.. predictably, harden led in 2019 with 9.5 minutes per game.. lebron has the all-time record with 12.2 minutes in the 15' Finals, and 11.0 minutes in 2018 Finals.

lebron's ball-domination will likely increase alongside AD because AD isn't a ball-dominator and needs someone like lebron to feed him - it's a perfect match.. With lebron's previous super-teams, chemistry suffered because he was redundant/alongside other ball-dominators like Wade, Kyrie, and also PG Chalmers, who had a PG-time of possession too

Essentially, lebron becomes a 2nd player on the floor with a PG-level time of possession, which reduced teammates' time and assists compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups... With teammates getting less assists, the TEAM ranks low in assists and employs a low ball-movement brand that struggles on the championship level

Ultimately, lebron's weaker championship record didn't reflect lack of personal or supporting talent, but an approach to the game that didn't yield the best offenses, brand of ball, and teams of his era..

To be fair, in the 2015 finals he was alone because Kyrie and Love were out.
Point taken with regards to the usage rate.
I thought you said in another thread that you felt that this is a great fit. Or di you not feel that it will work out?

[AussieSteve]

Each guy is flawed on their own, but perfect together - AD is too bird-fed/assisted, while Bron is too unassisted/ball-dominant for his position

I think it's the best duo ever on paper - and again, they appear to be a perfect match

Classic 3ball.

Already laying the foundation for...

"Of course they won, they are the best duo ever"

Or

"Couldn't even win with best duo ever"

[3ball]

To be fair, in the 2015 finals he was alone because Kyrie and Love were out.
Point taken with regards to the usage rate.
I thought you said in another thread that you felt that this is a great fit. Or di you not feel that it will work out?
It's a perfect fit - I mentioned this in my post, but I know my shit is long af and not the easiest to read

But I expect them to win a championship, particularly because they're going to add a 3rd superstar talent, which lebron's suboptimal teamwork needs to win

And btw, lebron's ball-domination will never be an adequate substitute for ball movement.. In the 15' Finals, I think the Cavs could've won if he achieved his same 35 ppg in 1/3 the time of possession (so about 4 minutes instead of 12).. that's what Kawhi did, so his teammates had an extra 8 minutes per game to make plays and move the ball - not surprisingly, kawhi's teammates have always played better than Lebron's, while still getting elite production from Kawhi when they need it... oh, and better defense from Bron would also have won it (not letting Iggy double his normal average from 8 to 16)

Ultimately, Kawhi was a TIMELY scorer - only when his team needed it... and that's the optimal style for the #1 option - let your teammates make plays, and when they need a monentum boost, go on a mini 2 or 3 bucket run, to loosen things back up for teammates.. but lebron tries to do everything, all the time, which isn't smart, hurts teammates, and rarely wins regardless of supporting talent

[NASH = BEST]

Stupid thread and PER is for retards.

LeBron and Dwade as individuals going into 2010-11 were both ranked higher than LeBron and AD are right now.

[3ball]

Stupid thread and PER is for retards.

LeBron and Dwade as individuals going into 2010-11 were both ranked higher than LeBron and AD are right now.
And yet lebron lost with him in 2011

The so-called goat teams up with the next best player in the league and loses in 2011.. then they were underdogs heading into the 12' Finals

Something isn't right about that equation.. goat + next best player = dominant favorites and winning, not perennial underdog status... Clearly, the problem with the equation is that lebron isn't goat

[StrongLurk]

This ain't peak Bron anymore...why do people keep thinking Bron is gonna be great forever?

[The Iron Fist]

That's what I thought. You can't.
So you

[NBAGOAT]

Kareem is a role player in 88 and like a lower lvl all star in 87. It

[SouBeachTalents]

Nah

Shaq/Kobe & Durant/Curry > AD & 35 year old LeBron

[The Iron Fist]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]Kareem is a role player in 88 and like a lower lvl all star in 87. It