Accolades of the supporting cast

[3ball]

Including AD next year, 7 guys were all-stars alongside lebron, plus Jamison right before joining lebron

That's 8 guys and 17 appearances, versus 3 guys and 8 appearances for mj (Pippen 6, Grant 1, Armstrong 1)

Defensively, MJ never had a center average over 0.5 blocks, while Lebron always had great rim protection (Zydrunas 2.3 blk... Shaq 1.5... Mosgov 1.5... Chandler/McGee 0.8)

MJ makes up for his lesser rim protection by playing with 2 all-defenders for each 3-peat (Pippen/Grant and Pippen/Rodman), but lebron also played with 2 All-NBA defenders for much of his career (Hughes/Varejao and Wade/Battier)

Overall, lebron had a lot more supporting talent, but this was offset by inferior teamwork resulting from his suboptimal style (a version of harden-ball)... Hence 3/9
.

[CelticGangster]

MJ played against janitors though, LeBron has played against many other greats

[3ball]

.
MJ played better against some of the best players lebron ever faced... :eek: :biggums:


1) SHAQ



Top Lebron moments:



2004-2006 were the only years of Lebron's career where Shaq had some prime left - during those years, Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting (2004 and 2005), and lost the conference to him (2005 and 2006).. Lebron never dunked on him.




Top Jordan moments:



Jordan won MVP over prime Shaq in 1996 and 1998 and swept Shaq in 1996 ECF.. He also dunked on him, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif).




2. KOBE:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron watched Kobe win more championships during the time that both were in their prime, and also watched Kobe save the team in the 2008 Olympics.

- He missed the much-anticipated, Kobe/Lebron matchup in 2009 and 2010 Finals, because his top-seeded team underachieved by losing to lower seeds in earlier rounds.




Top Jordan moments:



- MJ dunked on Kobe in their first ever possession vs. each other, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-13-2015/Q3fm0o.gif)

- MJ showed his protege how it's done by hitting the game-winner in the first game of the 1997 Finals, after Kobe had airballed 4 straight game-winner attempts against the same team earlier in the playoffs.

- MJ passed the torch to his protoge in the 1998 all-star game by scoring on him at will (5 times in head-to-head possessions, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN3sto7KGQs&t=0m16s)).




3. DUNCAN



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron missed the infamous game-tying 3-pointer and needed Ray Allen to save him




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan MADE his game-tying 3-pointer from the exact same spot during his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich in 1998 (the shot is shown here (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif))... Then he dominated the OT, including 2 dunks over Duncan, shown here (https://media.giphy.com/media/26FPq7nUqs2V8LyNO/giphy.gif)..

Later in that 1998 season, Jordan won the Finals against the team (Jazz) that destroyed Duncan's Spurs in WCF 2nd Round (Duncan/Robinson/Popovich's Spurs won 56 games in RS).




4. GARNETT:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron got his shit pushed in during 2008 and 2010 ECSF




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan schooled Garnett in the 1998 all-star game (shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2015/q8-1iR.gif)) and during the regular season (shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/6agjm-.gif), here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/EfFINb.gif) and here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/Jp9ACT.gif)).

- The only time where MJ and Garnett were matched up defensively for an entire game was during a 2002 contest - both were matched up at SF, and 38-year old Jordan scored 35 on Garnett in every way imagineable, including various blow-by dunks and layups, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0).




5. SHAWN MARION:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron got locked down by OLD Shawn Marion during the 2011 Finals, which was one of the greatest chokes ever by a star in the Finals.




Top Jordan moments:



- 38-year old Jordan hit the game-winner in PRIME Shawn Marion's face during a contest in 2002 (shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m09s)), and then destroyed him for 41 points in another contest (shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)).




6. 2003-2004 seasons



JORDAN 2003: 19.3 PER.. 20.0 ppg.. 44.5 fg
LEBRON 2004: 18.3 PER.. 20.9 ppg.. 41.7 fg

[3ball]

MJ played against janitors though, LeBron has played against many other greats


I was hoping you'd spout that drivel because MJ played better against the best guys lebron ever faced - he was MVP in 1998 over all-stars Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Kidd and dominated them more than lebron did, as shown in the post above

[egokiller]

3ball coming right over the top of these lefail stans. :eek:

[AussieSteve]

I was hoping you'd spout that drivel because MJ played better against the best guys lebron ever faced - he was MVP in 1998 over all-stars Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Kidd and dominated them more than lebron did, as shown in the post above

Jordan had more success against some HoFers while they were teenagers, than LeBron had against them while they were in their primes and he was a teenager

Case closed. :facepalm

[3ball]

Jordan had more success against some HoFers while they were teenagers, than LeBron had against them while they were in their primes and he was a teenager

Case closed. :facepalm
The reality is that MJ and lebron's careers nearly overlap and they played against a lot of the same guys - so the janitor/milkmen narrative is pretty dumb, and it's only used when lebron stans are backed into a corner by the facts (like Lebron's more decorated casts shown in the OP)...

That's when the "well MJ played against milkmen" comes up - only when Bron fans have no other rebuttal

Btw, MJ was MVP over prime Shaq.. And Duncan had a 4-year college career and his rookie year was the same as every other year

And guys like Magic, Hakeem, Barkley and Malone are equal or better than anyone lebron ever played.. but regardless, MJ/lebron's careers nearly overlap and they played against a lot of the same guys, so the OP stands - lebron had much better casts

[bullettooth]

MJ played against janitors though, LeBron has played against many other greats

Demar derozen is great?

OK. I didn't know that.

[Ne 1]

I just can’t take you seriously when you rank Bob Pettit and Dirk over Lebron. Those two alone are a complete joke, I know that’s just trolling but then spreading misinformation (Jordan never playing with a center who averaged over 0.5 blks) ruins any little credibility you had.

[AussieSteve]

The reality is that MJ and lebron's careers nearly overlap and they played against a lot of the same guys - so the janitor/milkmen narrative is pretty dumb, and it's only used when lebron stans are backed into a corner by the facts (like Lebron's more decorated casts shown in the OP)...

That's when the "well MJ played against milkmen" comes up - only when Bron fans have no other rebuttal

Btw, MJ was MVP over prime Shaq.. And Duncan had a 4-year college career and his rookie year was the same as every other year

And guys like Magic, Hakeem, Barkley and Malone are equal or better than anyone lebron ever played.. but regardless, MJ/lebron's careers nearly overlap and they played against a lot of the same guys, so the OP stands - lebron had much better casts

MJ played against milkman is an awful argument coming from desperation. I agree.

Every player in the NBA was making 6 figures in the 90s and lots were making millions. All were full time professional athletes.

[Ne 1]

Btw, Did Jordan ever play a team with 5 all-stars in the primary line up? and yes they all count as allstars because you always count Lebron playing with allstars who weren’t even allstars the same year. So yes Lebron is 3/9 mainly because he played far tougher Finals competition. Jordan also never played 3
future MVPs on 1 team for a title. Matter of fact, MJ couldn’t get out the East when he faced teams with multiple All-Stars for years.

[Ne 1]

I just wonder why out of 15 years Jordan couldn

[3ball]

[QUOTE=Ne 1]I just wonder why out of 15 years Jordan couldn

[3ball]

I just wonder why out of 15 years Jordan couldn’t even make it to the Finals, yet we kill Lebron for losing in the Finals as if it’s better to lose in the previous rounds? So now 6/0 compared to 3/9 tells me you count missing the finals as being a better accompaniment then making it and losing.


It isn't better to lose in earlier rounds, but if you routinely lose decisively in the Finals (all of lebron's Finals losses), that means you can't beat the West and wouldn't make the Finals in that conference - so your Finals appearances are conference-dependant.. That's why winning the Finals matter - otherwise, you're just a function of a weak conference

The conference dependency of Lebron's Finals appearances is demonstrated by him forming a superstar cast in a conference where Dwight was dragging weak casts to the Finals - he formed a strong cast in a conference that didn't require strong casts to make the Finals, because he himself couldn't make the Finals in 2009 and 2010 (despite having favored 1 seeds)..

Also, making the Finals is just winning the conference Finals.. it doesn't compare to winning the Finals.. Ultimately:

Lebron = 9 conference finals wins + 3 Finals wins = 12 wins
Jordan = 6 conference finals wins + 6 Finals wins = 12 wins

Obviously, jordan's 3 extra Finals wins > Lebron's 3 conference finals wins.. :confusedshrug:

Hope that helps.. :cheers:

[FKAri]

I was hoping you'd spout that drivel because MJ played better against the best guys lebron ever faced - he was MVP in 1998 over all-stars Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Kidd and dominated them more than lebron did, as shown in the post above
MJ dominated rookie Kobe, rookie Duncan AND 21 year old KG? :eek:

And he did it all with the GOAT coach, GOAT rebounder, GOAT perimeter defender and GOAT shooter on his team? No way! :oldlol:

[3ball]

MJ dominated rookie Kobe, rookie Duncan AND 21 year old KG? :eek:


MJ and lebron's careers nearly overlap and they played against a lot of the same guys - so the janitor/milkmen narrative is pretty dumb, and it's only used when lebron stans are backed into a corner by the facts (like Lebron's more decorated casts shown in the OP)...

That's when the "well MJ played against milkmen" comes up - only when Bron fans have no other rebuttal

Btw, MJ was MVP over prime Shaq.. And Duncan had a 4-year college career and his rookie year was the same as every other year

And guys like Magic, Hakeem, Barkley and Malone are equal or better than anyone lebron ever played.. but regardless, MJ/lebron's careers nearly overlap and they played against a lot of the same guys, so the OP stands - lebron had much better casts





And he did it all with the GOAT coach, GOAT rebounder, GOAT perimeter defender and GOAT shooter on his team? No way! :oldlol:


^^^ you listed a bunch of nothing - that's no help

Phil was a 1st-time, nobody coach in 1990 and 1991 - mj was infact the goat candidate and made Phil by accepting the triangle, not the other way around

Kerr was cut by the Magic before MJ gave him a career, while pippen's broke shot made MJ carry the offense (while also being the primary defender on the other team's best player)

Rodman wasn't shit in 97 or 98.. So MJ won with weak talent and goat teamwork.. he literally had goat offenses with no 3rd option and an often anemic 2nd option
.

[Ne 1]

It isn't better to lose in earlier rounds, but if you routinely lose decisively in the Finals (all of lebron's Finals losses), that means you can't beat the West and wouldn't make the Finals in that conference - so your Finals appearances are conference-dependant.. That's why winning the Finals matter - otherwise, you're just a function of a weak conference

The conference dependency of Lebron's Finals appearances is demonstrated by him forming a superstar cast in a conference where Dwight was dragging weak casts to the Finals - he formed a strong cast in a conference that didn't require strong casts to make the Finals, because he himself couldn't make the Finals in 2009 and 2010 (despite having favored 1 seeds)..

Also, making the Finals is just winning the conference Finals.. it doesn't compare to winning the Finals.. Ultimately:

Lebron = 9 conference finals wins + 3 Finals wins = 12 wins
Jordan = 6 conference finals wins + 6 Finals wins = 12 wins

Obviously, jordan's 3 extra Finals wins > Lebron's 3 conference finals wins.. :confusedshrug:

Hope that helps.. :cheers:
The thing is 3 of LeBron

[3ball]

3 of LeBron’s Finals losses came against the same team.


And 3 more losses were against the Spurs and the Mavs..

So the narrative that lebron only lost because he faced the mighty Warriors is false.. His skills simply don't yield champions as easily as other players





Has MJ ever had to go against a team with 3 MVPs like OKC??


They weren't in their prime or MVP's back then, and Lebron had better teammates who were in their prime (prime Wade/Bosh)





Beat a 73 win team ffs.



No, because they weren't anywhere near 73-win team in the Finals:


Curry 2016 RS.......... 30.1 ppg.. 50.4 fg.. 66.9 ts.. 125 ortg
Curry 2016 Finals..... 22.6 ppg.. 40.3 fg.. 58.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. sustained MCL injury


A lot of guys would've beaten that team, and easier than lebron did because they would've gotten more out of Love, instead of turning him into an ordinary banger like say, Haslem

Kawhi did just that... And he beat a more experienced team because curry was at 30 ppg in the 19' Finals (versus 22 in 2016), while Klay was at 26 and 59% threes (19 and 35% threes in 2016)...

Furthermore, Durant boosted them for 1 quarter in game 5, which offsets Klay's missed quarter in game 6.. so Klay only missed 1 game like Dray in 16'.. the injury narrative is simply false news by a biased, lebron/dubs dick-sucking media





The only loss you can really hold against him was 2011.


He gets knocked for 2014 because he lost to old guys and better teamwork, not talent or odds (even odds, but record loss)..

his brand was exposed by superior ball movement and teamwork than lebron's ball-domination, while he let a 12 ppg role player average 18 (24 on 70% ts in the last 3 games)

Duncan/Parker/Ginobili were 35/36/31 years old vs 29/29/31 for Lebron/Bosh/Wade





Therefore, clearly nobody else could beat the West in that span either since the same team came out the West 5 years in a row. Jordan NEVER faced a team like that in the Finals.


Lebron faced a talent deficit against the kd-warriors, but MJ faced bigger talent deficits against the Pistons - they had 3x all-stars at every starting spot, versus zero for MJ's teammates in 88' and 89', and 1 all-star in 90/91

Jordan also faced a MUCH bigger talent deficit against the 86' Celtics, yet jordan's 8 seed played them closer than lebron's 2 seed played the old Spurs in 14', or his 4-seeded, conference champs played the 18' Warriors

So MJ faced bigger talent deficits, yet his teams played the opponent closer than Lebron did against smaller talent deficits.

Also, MJ had no all-stars in 1989, but beat the Cavs' 3 all-stars plus 20/5/5 budding star Ron Harper.. All the reporters expected the 6-seeded bulls to lose, but MJ guaranteed (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IBZH4nICAE4&t=17m24s) victory and then hit "the shot" to fulfill his guarantee.. when did lebron do anything boss like that?





Lebron beat the Warriors


So did Kawhi... And he beat a more experienced, better team because curry was at 30 ppg in the 19' Finals (not 22 like 16'), and Klay was at 26 ppg and 59% threes (not 19 ppg and 35%)...

Furthermore, Durant boosted them for 1 quarter in game 5, which offsets Klay's missed quarter in game 6.. so Klay only missed 1 game like Dray in 16'.. the injury narrative is simply false news by a biased, lebron/dubs dick-sucking media





The most legitimate threat he ever faced in the Finals was the ‘93 Suns, now I won’t deny, that was a great team and IMO that Finals was Jordan’s best moment, but even the 93' Suns aren’t touching the Warriors.


They destroy the KD-less Warriors, just like Kawhi and Bran did.. the kd-less Warriors are essentially 0-3 in the Finals, if not for injuries in 15' (8-10 in the Finals overall without KD)..

So get your head out of the sand brah - the KD-less Warriors are not formidable like ur claiming - the results speak for themselves





he has won 3 championships so to say he can’t beat the West is ridiculous when nobody else could beat the West 5 years in a row now.


3/9 means lebron would make 3 Finals in the West for his career - it doesn't matter that the Warriors made 5 straight - what matters is that lebron only beat them once, so he'd have 1 Finals appearances out West during that span
.