How many guys won ring while averaging 8+ assists in the RS, PO, or Finals since 91'?

[3ball]

again, in the RS, PO, or Finals?

[TheCorporation]

Kawhi Leonard

[3ball]

I'm trying to see how effective high APG players are at winning rings

I figure there must be a shit-ton of guys that won rings while averaging 8+ apg in either the RS, PO, or Finals

That's a ton of opportunities - surely there's a ton of guys that won with 8+ apg.. because we all know high APG is a really important skill and makes guys winners

Sure, we all know that high APG turns teammates into play-finishers and reduces their role, but the media gives props for high APG, so it must be critical to winning

[TheCorporation]

I'm trying to see how effective high APG players are at winning rings

I figure there must be a shit-ton of guys that won rings while averaging 8+ apg in either the RS, PO, or Finals

That's a ton of opportunities - surely there's a ton of guys that won with 8+ apg.. because we all know high APG is a really important skill and makes guys winners

Sure, we all know that high APG turns teammates into play-finishers and reduces their role, but the media gives props for high APG, so it must be critical to winning

Let's use our brains. First off how many stars average 8 apg during the playoffs to begin with? It's rare. It's hard. Start with a comparable sample size.

ALSO:

How many guys won a ring while averaging 4 reb and 2 assists in the Finals since 91'?

[SouBeachTalents]

Kidd, LeBron, Dray & Lowry all did it

[3ball]

Let's use our brains. First off how many stars average 8 apg during the playoffs to begin with? It's rare. It's hard. Start with a comparable sample size.


It doesn't have to be during the playoffs - it can be during the RS, PO, or Finals - so there's a shit-ton of guys

And so far, we've only come up with 5 occurances in 30 years - Jordan 91' Finals (11.2), lebron 16' Finals (8.9), Lowry 19' RS (8.7), Draymond 18' PO (8.1), Kidd 11' RS (8.3)

^^^ That's barely anyone over a 30-year period of RS, PO, and Finals

So it's clear that versatile, timely scoring while letting teammates get off > ball-dominant assists that reduce teammates' role and impact

:cheers:

[AussieSteve]

Magic, Bird, Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, LeBron Off the top of my head.

Sure there's plenty more.

Thread fail.

EDIT... Just noticed 'since 91'. So obviously bird, magic, Isiah don't count. but still, the fact that basically EVERY ring from 1980 - 1990 had an 8+ assist guy makes this thread cherry picked and irrelevant

[LostCause]

makes this thread cherry picked and irrelevant

Pretty sure that

[Vino24]

Kidd, LeBron, Dray & Lowry all did it
Op got destroyed here :lol

[Andrei89]

Kidd, LeBron, Dray & Lowry all did it


Jason Kidd averaged with Dallas 8+ assists in RS,PO and Finals? Did not even look, but I doubt it

[aj1987]

Kidd, LeBron, Dray & Lowry all did it
:oldlol:

Also, I wonder why OP arbitrarily cut off the APG at 8. Why not 7?

[TheCorporation]

Magic, Bird, Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, LeBron Off the top of my head.

Sure there's plenty more.

Thread fail.

EDIT... Just noticed 'since 91'. So obviously bird, magic, Isiah don't count. but still, the fact that basically EVERY ring from 1980 - 1990 had an 8+ assist guy makes this thread cherry picked and irrelevant

Bang

3ball slayers stay winning

Always winning

:dancin

[TheCorporation]

Part 1:
First off how many stars average 8 apg during the playoffs to begin with? It's rare. It's hard. Start with a comparable sample size.

Part 2:
How many guys won a ring while averaging 4 reb and 2 assists in the Finals since 91'?

Care to comment?

[MaxPlayer]

we all know that high APG turns teammates into play-finishers and reduces their role

So, passing to teammates so that they can score "reduces their role"

:biggums:

[Vino24]

So, passing to teammates so that they can score "reduces their role"

:biggums:
apparently volume scoring doesn't :oldlol:

[LAmbruh]

thread got shut down REAL quick :oldlol:

[3ball]

EDIT... Just noticed 'since 91'. So obviously bird, magic, Isiah don't count. but still, the fact that basically EVERY ring from 1980 - 1990 had an 8+ assist guy makes this thread cherry picked and irrelevant that


the 80's were clearly an anomaly with Magic/Kareem's stacked casts and the Pistons' ground-breaking defense

But there's only 5 occurances in the last 30 years - so that's clearly the norm

The 5 occurances are: Jordan 91' Finals (11.2), lebron 16' Finals (8.9), Lowry 19' RS (8.7), Draymond 18' PO (8.1), Kidd 11' RS (8.3)

^^^ That's barely anyone over a 30-year period of RS, PO, or Finals.. again, that's clearly the norm

So it's clear that versatile, timely scoring that lets teammates maximize role/production and only scores when needed > ball-dominant assists that reduce teammates' role and impact

Hope that helps.. :cheers:

[sdot_thadon]

And just as few guys averaged as many points in finals as Mj did over the last 30 years i suspect.

"So it's clear that versatile, personnel and teamwork to carry the load>> ball hogging amounts of fieldgoal attempts by one player." hope that helps.:oldlol:

[3ball]

And just as few guys averaged as many points in finals as Mj did over the last 30 years i suspect.


Actually, no one in history averaged within 4 points of MJ in the playoffs - you're a numbers guy, so you should be well-aware of how ridiculous that is (everyone is bunched up at 27-29 ppg, while MJ stands alone at 33.5..... the only guy in history with 30/5/5 career averages in RS, PO, or Finals.. yikes)

Ultimately, only the Bulls' required scoring champion production from their #1 option to win a ring.. Indeed - only MJ won a ring as the league's scoring champ (6 times)... Actually, Kareem and Shaq had to carry that burden once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00' - so their peak burden was mj's standard burden to win a ring (goat burden)

[sdot_thadon]

Actually, no one in history averaged within 4 points of MJ in the playoffs - you're a numbers guy, so you should be well-aware of how ridiculous that is (everyone is bunched up at 27-29 ppg, while MJ stands alone at 33.5..... the only guy in history with 30/5/5 career averages in RS, PO, or Finals.. yikes)

Ultimately, only the Bulls' required scoring champion production from their #1 option to win a ring.. Indeed - only MJ won a ring as the league's scoring champ (6 times)... Actually, Kareem and Shaq had to carry that burden once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00' - so their peak burden was mj's standard burden to win a ring (goat burden)
Except your dumbass just used 8+ assists only occuring a few times in 30 years as a negative but Mj scoring so much being even more rare as a positive. Idiot confirmed.

You can't even keep your thoughts consistent across a 3 post string.

[3ball]

Except your dumbass just used 8+ assists only occuring a few times in 30 years as a negative but Mj scoring so much being even more rare as a positive. Idiot confirmed.
Sorry, but players are 6/15 by averaging 33.5 for their career in the playoffs

So that's the most effective way to win (highest championship frequency of the modern era), except only MJ could do it

Otoh, tons of guys averaged 8+ dimes in the last 30 years during the RS, PO, or Finals, yet only 5 guys won rings that way

So I guess that makes you the idiot.. confirmed

[sdot_thadon]

Sorry, but players are 6/15 by averaging 33.5 for their career in the playoffs

So that's the most effective way to win (highest championship frequency of the modern era), except only MJ could do it

Otoh, tons of guys averaged 8+ dimes in the last 30 years during the RS, PO, or Finals, yet only 5 guys won rings that way

So I guess that makes you the idiot.. confirmed
No actually they are 6/30. 1 more ring than the 8+ assist club. What. an. idiot.

[SouBeachTalents]

Sorry, but players are 6/15 by averaging 33.5 for their career in the playoffs

So that's the most effective way to win (highest championship frequency of the modern era), except only MJ could do it

Otoh, tons of guys averaged 8+ dimes in the last 30 years during the RS, PO, or Finals, yet only 5 guys won rings that way

So I guess that makes you the idiot.. confirmed
Nope, players who averaged 33.5 ppg in the playoffs only won titles 2/25 times, with Jordan actually losing 5 straight years averaging 33.5 + ppg in the playoffs

[NBAGOAT]

Nope, players who averaged 33.5 ppg in the playoffs only won titles 2/25 times, with Jordan actually losing 5 straight years averaging 33.5 + ppg in the playoffs

3ball calls the lakers and pistons an anomaly yet doesnt realize how much of an anomaly the bulls are and tbf mj is too. They had fantastic defensive players and had a better defense than any 80s title team, yes even the bad boys. 2nd and 3rd guys who's primary strengths arent scoring and the elite offensive rebounding teams in the league even pre rodman. fantastic fit for a volume scorer as volume scoring doesnt lead to great teamwork either(yes ik jordan is a better teammate than most volume scorers).

Hypothetically, if Jordan replaced like Ritchmond on run tmc, ofc they win titles but I think it's ridiculous to think mullin's and hardaway's numbers dont fall off some. I even think it's wrong to assume they are better than the 3peat bulls even though that's what 3ball thinks because of their superior offensive talent

[TheCorporation]

apparently volume scoring doesn't :oldlol:

:hammertime::dancin:djparty:dancin:hammertime:

[3ball]

Nope, players who averaged 33.5 ppg in the playoffs only won titles 2/25 times, with Jordan actually losing 5 straight years averaging 33.5 + ppg in the playoffs


I never said that 33.5 season average = best way to win.. you simply lied about what I said

I said 33.5 for a career (an entirely superior scoring ability than everyone in history) gives the best chance to win (best championship frequency of the modern era)

So the goat scorer = best chance to win.. confirmed by historical record.. That's a lot different than 33.5 season average = best way to win...

Infact, MJ won most of his rings averaging less than 33.5... But he was always scoring champ when he won rings, which is a MORE rare feat... So MJ was better at doing something very rare/changing the game by winning 6 rings as scoring champ, compared to only won 5 rings in 30 years for 8 apg players
.
.

[TheCorporation]

Nope, players who averaged 33.5 ppg in the playoffs only won titles 2/25 times, with Jordan actually losing 5 straight years averaging 33.5 + ppg in the playoffs

Close this one up boys, we're done here :pimp:

[3ball]

you just used 8+ assists only occuring a few times in 30 years as a negative, but Mj scoring so much being even more rare as a positive


I never mentioned MJ but he supports the argument because

players win more with versatile, timely scoring that maximizes teammates' role, than they do as an 8-assist ball-dominator that reduces teammates' impact and role to play-finisher

Versatile, timely scorers won 17 rings in 30 years - Jordan 6, Kobe 2, Kawhi 2, KD 2, Lebron 2, Pierce 1, Wade 1, Dirk 1, plus more with Duncan's rings... Otoh, 8 assist guys only won 5 times in the last 30 years - MJ, Kidd, Lowry, Lebron, Draymond

Got it?

APG is clearly an overrated stat.

[Vino24]

I use to think op was a good poster back in the day. Since LeBron passed MJ in all the major categories op has been left to making arbitrary comparisons that have very little worth in the basketball world. OP has fallen off :(

[red1]

Kidd, LeBron, Dray & Lowry all did it
https://media.tenor.com/images/388ec3108aa1cf9109b82fc622dafc7a/tenor.gif

[3ball]

I use to think op was a good poster back in the day. Since LeBron passed MJ in all the major categories op has been left to making arbitrary comparisons that have very little worth in the basketball world. OP has fallen off :(
In the last 30 years, why haven't 8 assist guys won nearly as much as versatile, timely scorers?

Versatile, timely scorers that maximize teammate's role won 15 rings in 30 years - Jordan 6, Kobe 2, Kawhi 2, KD 2, Pierce 1, Wade 1, Dirk 1, plus more with Duncan's rings...

Otoh, 8 assist guys that reduce teammates role to play-finishers only won 5 times in the last 30 years - MJ, Kidd, Lowry, Lebron, Draymond

So APG is clearly an overrated stat.

[TheCorporation]

Nope, players who averaged 33.5 ppg in the playoffs only won titles 2/25 times, with Jordan actually losing 5 straight years averaging 33.5 + ppg in the playoffs

/thread

[Vino24]

In the last 30 years, why haven't 8 assist guys won nearly as much as versatile, timely scorers?

Versatile, timely scorers that maximize teammate's role won 15 rings in 30 years - Jordan 6, Kobe 2, Kawhi 2, KD 2, Pierce 1, Wade 1, Dirk 1, plus more with Duncan's rings...

Otoh, 8 assist guys that reduce teammates role to play-finishers only won 5 times in the last 30 years - MJ, Kidd, Lowry, Lebron, Draymond

So APG is clearly an overrated stat.
getting guys open easy looks is reducing they're roles? also if anything that stat proves that only the elite of the elite are capable of such stats :eek:

[TheCorporation]

getting guys open easy looks is reducing they're roles? also if anything that stat proves that only the elite of the elite are capable of such stats :eek:

Precisely

It's rare for a reason

[3ball]

getting guys open easy looks is reducing they're roles? also if anything that stat proves that only the elite of the elite are capable of such stats :eek:
In the last 30 years, why haven't 8 assist guys won nearly as much as versatile, timely scorers?

Doesn't that mean timely scoring is a bigger driver for winning and more important than high APG?

[3ball]

In the last 30 years, why haven't 8 assist guys won nearly as much as versatile, timely scorers?

Doesn't that mean timely scoring is a bigger driver for winning and more important than high APG?


^^^^ This one got em'

That's what the OP should've said and that's the irrefutable argument that will be used going forward..

thanks for helping me vet it sdot, SouthBeach, and vino... :cheers:... good work fellas.. :applause:

[sdot_thadon]

^^^^ This one got em'

That's what the OP should've said and that's the irrefutable argument that will be used going forward..

thanks for helping me vet it sdot, SouthBeach, and vino... :cheers:... good work fellas.. :applause:
You're a looney toon. Versatile, timely scoring is as vague as it can get aside from the weird 8+ assist thing. Its pretty much you being afraid to say a scorer because then your contorted premise wouldn't work whatsoever but ok. So many holes in this entire thread premise. Where should i start?

1st of all your Op says rs, po, OR finals. Well that makes 2 of MJ's "versatile, timely scoring" rings also count as 8+ assist rings for pippen in 92 and 93. So which one is it? so the bulls entire 1st 3peat had an 8+ assist man. :oldlol:

Dirk's ring with "versatile, timely scoring " seems to coincide with Kidd's 8+ assist ring too....hmm

one of Kawhi's "versatile, timely scoring" rings you're crediting happened in a season where he scored 13 a game and playoffs he scored 14 a game and only 18 a game in the finals?:oldlol:

Those few details make this idea laughable as it is, but why would '91 be the arbitrary cutoff date? hmm. Perhaps because i would ignore the rest of nba history.

6 boston rings with an 8+ assist guy. Wilt with a chip as a 8+ assist guy. Walt Frazier. Jerry West. Oscar Robertson. 2 Larry Bird rings. 2 Rings for Zeke. It's far from rare if you don't cherry pick like an idiot.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen never averaged 8+ assists

Ultimately, getting an assist while being a ball-handler is a function that's useful to have, but it's harder to win amassing excessive assists that way..

History shows that 4-7 apg is the optimal level - the player has the capability of setting up teammates, but isn't doing it excessively to the point of offense predictability or boxing teammates into a play-finishing role that they can't thrive in.

The most effective approach is to let teammates maximize their role/production and make plays, while the star steps in the with timely scoring as needed - the star occasionally sets up teammates, but not excessively to marginalize them.. that's the tried and true formula for winning, while high APG winners are rare and harder to achieve... Essentially, high APG is neither here nor there.. :confusedshrug:... As long as the player has some play-making capability (4-7 apg), their timely/clutch scoring skills are the bigger driver of winning

Regarding the cutoff of 1991 - it's clear that the 80's decade was a blip on the radar; an anomaly due to the 1-of-a-kind combination of goat PG/goat center, and their wonderfully stacked cast.. Isiah and the Pistons had a ground-breaking defense that helped them overcome any suboptimal offense (that they most definitely had)..
He averaged 7.7 in b2b Finals in '92/'93, that's just some nitpicky shit

[3ball]

You're a looney toon. Versatile, timely scoring is as vague as it can get aside from the weird 8+ assist thing. Its pretty much you being afraid to say a scorer because then your contorted premise wouldn't work whatsoever but ok. So many holes in this entire thread premise. Where should i start?

1st of all your Op says rs, po, OR finals. Well that makes 2 of MJ's "versatile, timely scoring" rings also count as 8+ assist rings for pippen in 92 and 93. So which one is it? so the bulls entire 1st 3peat had an 8+ assist man. :oldlol:

Dirk's ring with "versatile, timely scoring " seems to coincide with Kidd's 8+ assist ring too....hmm

one of Kawhi's "versatile, timely scoring" rings you're crediting happened in a season where he scored 13 a game and playoffs he scored 14 a game and only 18 a game in the finals?:oldlol:

Those few details make this idea laughable as it is, but why would '91 be the arbitrary cutoff date? hmm. Perhaps because i would ignore the rest of nba history.

6 boston rings with an 8+ assist guy. Wilt with a chip as a 8+ assist guy. Walt Frazier. Jerry West. Oscar Robertson. 2 Larry Bird rings. 2 Rings for Zeke. It's far from rare if you don't cherry pick like an idiot.
Ultimately, getting an assist while being a ball-handler is a function that's useful to have, but it's harder to win amassing excessive assists that way..

History shows that 4-7 apg is the optimal level - the player has the capability of setting up teammates, but isn't doing it excessively to the point of offense predictability or boxing teammates into a play-finishing role that they can't thrive in.

The most effective approach is to let teammates maximize their role/production and make plays, while the star steps in the with timely scoring as needed - the star occasionally sets up teammates, but not excessively to marginalize them.. that's the tried and true formula for winning, while high APG winners are rare and harder to achieve... Essentially, high APG is neither here nor there.. :confusedshrug:... As long as the player has SOME play-making capability (4-7 apg), their versatile/timely/clutch scoring skills are the bigger driver of winning

Regarding the cutoff of 1991 - it's clear that the 80's decade was a blip on the radar; an anomaly due to the 1-of-a-kind combination of goat PG/goat center, and their wonderfully stacked cast.. Isiah and the Pistons had a ground-breaking defense that helped them overcome any suboptimal offense (that they most definitely had)..
.

[NBAGOAT]

Ultimately, getting an assist while being a ball-handler is a function that's useful to have, but it's harder to win amassing excessive assists that way..

History shows that 4-7 apg is the optimal level - the player has the capability of setting up teammates, but isn't doing it excessively to the point of offense predictability or boxing teammates into a play-finishing role that they can't thrive in.

The most effective approach is to let teammates maximize their role/production and make plays, while the star steps in the with timely scoring as needed - the star occasionally sets up teammates, but not excessively to marginalize them.. that's the tried and true formula for winning, while high APG winners are rare and harder to achieve... Essentially, high APG is neither here nor there.. :confusedshrug:... As long as the player has SOME play-making capability (4-7 apg), their versatile/timely/clutch scoring skills are the bigger driver of winning

Regarding the cutoff of 1991 - it's clear that the 80's decade was a blip on the radar; an anomaly due to the 1-of-a-kind combination of goat PG/goat center, and their wonderfully stacked cast.. Isiah and the Pistons had a ground-breaking defense that helped them overcome any suboptimal offense (that they most definitely had)..
.

And wat about the 80s Celtics. Bird averaged 8 in 86 for the pos, Archibald averaged 7.7 for the rs in 81. You

[SouBeachTalents]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]And wat about the 80s Celtics. Bird averaged 8 in 86 for the pos, Archibald averaged 7.7 for the rs in 81. You

[NBAGOAT]

And it's such a waste of time. Jordan is the consensus GOAT by a large margin, yet he wastes so much time making these convoluted, borderline retarded arguments

He’s just wrong quite simply. Impact stuff shows elite playmaking can elevate an offense as much as elite scoring. Using some historic players, I’m guessing most people have magic as an offensive player over Bernard king, George gervin Alex English or Adrian dantley