People rank Lebron close to MJ because Lebron is the first guy to match MJ physically

[3ball]

.
So people can't get passed that despite the statistical evidence (below) showing him to be far less skilled:


- LOW ASSISTED RATE - doesn't know how to play off teammates, lacks off-ball game

- WEAK JUMPSHOT - lacks critical mid-range component that allows timely scoring, so needs extra offensive help compared to midrange kings Dirk/MJ/Kobe

- EXCESSIVE TIME OF POSSESSION/BALL-DOMINANCE - reducing teammates to spot-up shooter doesn't develop teammates, teamwork or the team, so he seeks more talent to offset the weak brand of ball



The lesser skill = 3/9 despite stacked teams

[Gus Hemmingway]

Higher 3 point %

Higher assist %

Higher rebound %

Higher FG% career wise

Higher finishing % (in the paint)



So to conclude LeBron was the better 3 point shooter, assister, rebounder, more efficient scorer, and better finisher in the paint



3ball, refute each point?

[3ball]

Higher 3 point %

Higher assist %

Higher rebound %

Higher FG% career wise

Higher finishing % (in the paint)



So to conclude LeBron was the better 3 point shooter, assister, rebounder, more efficient scorer, and better finisher in the paint



3ball, refute each point?
Assist %


MJ was capable of averaging more assists than Lebron (1991 Finals), but decided to invent a lower assist, timely scoring style that has won most of the rings since 91', ala 06' Wade/11'Dirk/19' Kawhi/KD/Kobe/MJ/Curry/Duncan


Rebound %


the game is setup so guards don't have to get 10 rebounds for a team to win, which turns Lebron's rebound edge into "empty" stats"


Higher FG%


Lebron's field goal percentage is 0.4% higher than MJ in the playoffs, but he scores 5 less ppg - that's more than a fair trade-off and any Lebron fan wishes they could reverse it (they'd trade 0.4% for 5 ppg)


Higher at-rim finishing %


We don't have prime MJ's at-rim percentages (only 97' and 98').. But previous eras focused on paint defense while today's era must guard the 3-point line and enjoys a spacing-induced threes/layups shot allocation, so most elite perimeter players have higher at-rim percentage, not just Lebron.. But the reality is that MJ is the goat shot maker in traffic, and it's not close - no one finished better over length than MJ


Higher 3-pt percentage


Not when it mattered - 35.2% on 2.2 attempts in 85-93' playoffs.. 39% on 3.8 in 91-93 playoffs.. 43% on 3.8 attempts in 91-93' Finals

And not when MJ tried - he attempted less than 1.5 threes every year except for 90' and 93' where he took 3+ attempts and shot 37.6% and 35.2%

[Gus Hemmingway]

Assist %


MJ was capable of averaging more assists than Lebron (1991 Finals), but decided to invent a lower assist, timely scoring style that has won most of the rings since 91', ala 06' Wade/11'Dirk/19' Kawhi/KD/Kobe/MJ/Curry/Duncan


Rebound %


the game is setup so guards don't have to get 10 rebounds for a team to win, which makes Lebron's rebound edge "empty" stats


Higher FG%


Lebron's field goal percentage is 0.4% higher than MJ in the playoffs, but he scores 5 less ppg - so it's more than a fair trade-off that any Lebron fan wishes they could reverse (they'd trade 0.4% for 5 ppg)


Higher at-rim finishing %


We don't have prime MJ's at-rim percentages (only 97' and 98').. But previous eras focused on paint defense while today's era must guard the 3-point linenand enjoys a threes/layups shot allocation, so most elite perimeter players have higher at-rim percentage, not just Lebron.. But the reality is that MJ is the goat shot maker in traffic, and it's not close


Higher 3-pt percentage


Not when it mattered - 35.2% on 2.2 attempts in 85-93' playoffs.. 39% on 3.8 in 91-93 playoffs.. 43% on 3.8 attempts in 91-93' Finals

And not when MJ tried - he attempted less than 1.5 threes every year except for 90' and 93' where he took 3+ attempts and shot 37.6% and 35.2%


So you agree with all my facts? All you said was "Yes, thats true buut it doesnt matter" :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

So you agree with all my facts? All you said was "Yes, thats true buut it doesnt matter" :confusedshrug:
Whatever dude, you quoted my post without reading it and before it was edited

but I answered everything you said and now you have nothing except troll responses... carry on mr lame ass

[Uncle Drew]

Whatever dude, you quoted my post without reading it and before it was edited
Which is impossible because you edit every post 34394839 times.

[Gus Hemmingway]

STFU dude, you quoted my post without reading it and before it was edited

but I answered everything you said and now you have nothing except troll responses... carry on mr lame ass

Why so mad? :D

Are you still trying to figure out why 4 rebounds and 2 assists was enough for MJ to win but 12 rebounds and 10 assists was not enough for LeBron? (Both averaged 34 ppg but LeBron shot 10% higher) :eek:

[3ball]

Which is impossible because you edit every post 34394839 times.
Fair enough, except I answered the 5 points he made, but he didn't answer the 3 points I listed in the OP

Its like, lebron was an inferior player, and his posters are inferior at posting too

Here's the Lebron stan posting style: skip the OP's points... post their own... when they get directly refuted, resort to trolling without ever addressing the OP

However, it just occurred to me that ignoring the OP could be a passive-aggressive concession of sorts, so actually that's the best way to look at it.. he already conceded..

[Gus Hemmingway]

Fair enough, except I answered the 5 points he made, but he didn't answer the 3 points I listed in the OP

Its like, lebron was an inferior player, and his posters are inferior at posting too

Here's the Lebron stan posting style: skip the OP's points... post their own... when they get directly refuted, resort to trolling without ever addressing the OP

However, it just occurred to me that ignoring the OP could be a passive-aggressive concession of sorts, so actually that's the best way to look at it.. he already conceded..

Why did you delete and repost this?

[3ball]

Why did you delete and repost this?
How did you respond so fast?

Do you have like 5 screens open waiting to pounce when a response is posted in various threads or something?.. I don't know how it works to have 1355367 alts.. please explain

[sdot_thadon]

People rank Lebron close to MJ because Lebron is........
That damn good.

And apparently it shakes you to your 1992 core.:oldlol:

[Ne 1]

If LeBron couldn't play off the ball he wouldn't have had success with DWade or Kyrie. If LeBron's ball dominance wasn't good for his teammates, how did Bosh and Love continue to be all-stars while it took MJ leaving the Bulls for BJ and Horace Grant to be all-stars?

[3ball]

(Lebron is) That damn good.


So why only 3 rings compared to MJ???

You already know why I think he has so few rings compared to MJ (see the OP), but why do you think he does?

[Gus Hemmingway]

So why only 3 rings compared to MJ???

You already know why I think he has so few rings compared to MJ (see the OP), but why do you think he does?


Why were his Finals stats as good or better than MJs and only 3 rings?


Either his teams weren’t as good and/or his competition was tougher


The truth is it’s both

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

If Lebron couldn't play off the ball he wouldn't have had success with DWade or Kyrie.



Understand that Wade was the #2 or #3 player in 2010 - so imagine the greatest player of all time (Lebron) teaming up with the next best player in the league (Wade), but then losing in 11' and being the underdog in 12'.. Overall, the "not 6, not 7" juggernaut lost or were the underdog 3 of 4 years, including the goat choke and record defeat..

Ultimately, the equation has to work:. goat + next best player in the league = dominant winning and perennial favorites, not perennial losers/underdogs.. so something is off in the equation (lebron isn't goat)

In Cleveland, Lebron got the league's 2nd team PF to be his third option, yet won a pathetic 57 and 51 games in 16' and 17', instead of flirting with 70 wins like Kawhi and Curry.. Don't lie brah - we all imagined great things when these guys teamed up, but instead we got 1-3, including 2 record defeats and a fortuitous suspension of the series alpha in the middle of the 16 Finals.

And the few instances where he played off-ball in Miami weren't anywhere near enough.. He still held the ball a PG-level and was the only non-pg in the top 25 for time of possession - his presence as a 2nd player with a PG-level hold-time gave teammates less hold-time and opportunity to assist than they get in 1-PG lineups on other teams.. With teammates getting less assists and ball movement, the TEAM ranked low in assists/ball movement and struggled to compete on the championship level..

Ultimately, Lebron's abnormally-high hold-time for a forward and the extra time he needs to get stats reduces the team's championship viability.. if he got his 35 ppg in 5 minutes like Kawhi (instead of 12 minutes), teammates would have maximum time to produce/move the ball and the team would be much better..






If LeBron's ball dominance wasn't good for his teammates, how did Bosh and Love continue to be all-stars while it took MJ leaving the Bulls for BJ and Horace Grant to be all-stars?



Love's stats cratered, while Klay's stats as third option remain above 20 ppg . Ditto Parish many times, or Worthy

Lebron's excessive hold-time for his position ruined Love's hold time... Period.. and Bosh's..

And BJ/Horace were 1-time all-stars mainly because the bulls were a surprise that year, no different from korver in 15' or whenever he made his 1 all-star game.. the only star was Pippen and everyone else was literally interchangeable - he was the only common teammate/holdover from the 1st three-peat..

Ultimately, the 94' bulls had a solid season because they'd developed the know-how, teamwork and all-time brand of ball required to build any dynasty..

they certainly didn't win based on talent.. The exact same roster that 3-peated in 93' only won 47 games in 1989, and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8.. So that was a lottery roster that won by developing the know-how, teamwork and all-time brand of ball required to win and have a dynasty....
.

[Cleverness]

Media loves narratives.

They compared Kobe to Jordan a lot from 2005 - 2010.

Then LeBron to Jordan

Now they're comparing Kawhi to Jordan all last playoffs even though Kawhi's play was only comparable to old Jordan. We'll see more Kawhi to Jordan comparisons as long as Clippers are winning. Stay tuned.

[3ball]

Why were his Finals stats as good or better than MJs and only 3 rings?


His lesser scoring meant he needed more help, since scoring has the strongest correlation with "help" (guys that are considered good players)

Like, don't tell me lebron lost because he didn't have as many defensive-rebounding bangers as Jordan.. heck, he turned Love INTO one.. :rolleyes: .. if we start listing defensive rebounding bangers, Lebron's casts kill MJ's.. And Wade/Kyrie are equal/better playmakers than Pippen.

Lebron simply couldn't win as many Finals because his team never played that brand of ball that everyone would call "smart", or playing the right way, like the Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls.. i.e. the very teams that beat him repeatedly....

Ultimately, Lebron's skill restriction to abnormal ball-dominance (extra time needed to get stats) doesn't allow the ball movement necessary for dynasty-ball... So 3/9 is the result... His teams do pretty good all the way until the Finals, despite colluded, super-team casts..
.

[QUOTE=Gus Hemmingway]

Either his teams weren

[sdot_thadon]

So why only 3 rings compared to MJ???

You already know why I think he has so few rings compared to MJ (see the OP), but why do you think he does?
You already know the answer to that 3bait. I'm sure it had something to do with facing teams stronger than Mj's stronest finals opponent more times than not. But that's unimportant and doesn't have anything to do with this topic besides being a lazy lame brained argument. Of all things to use as MJ's argument over lebron this is by far the stupidest. As long as you keep it at a retard's level you'll continue to get embarrassed in these threads. Do better.

[3ball]

You already know the answer to that 3bait. I'm sure it had something to do with facing teams stronger than Mj's stronest finals opponent more times than not. But that's unimportant and doesn't have anything to do with this topic besides being a lazy lame brained argument. Of all things to use as MJ's argument over lebron this is by far the stupidest. As long as you keep it at a retard's level you'll continue to get embarrassed in these threads. Do better.


By specifying only MJ's Finals opponents, are you saying it's better to face great teams only in the Finals, and never in your conference - are you saying Lebron deserves a free ride to the Finals every year?

Because we already know the 86' Celtics and b2b Bad Boys are equal or better than anyone lebron faced, and cancel out the KD Warriors, especially since MJ faced them 5 times and lebron only faced the KD warriors twice

Without the KD Warriors, all of MJ's Finals opponents compare/matchup well to the 1-2 Finals record of Curry's Warriors(8-10 in Finals games without KD)..

Btw, the Blazers are the worst Finals opponent MJ had, and they were so stacked that Clyde made the 1990 Finals averaging 18 ppg as third option in the first 3 rounds.. they were way more stacked than the 90' or 92' bulls, which had the same rosters

Ultimately, you're addicted to thinking the bulls were stacked, and refusing to accept the historical record of the Bulls' lottery origins.. The same lottery cast that only won 47 games in 89' and barely made the 45-win playoff cut, grew into a champion by 91' and 3-peat champion in 93'.. the only stars were MJ/Pippen, and everyone else was literally interchangeable - MJ/Pippen were the one only common players from both 3-peats.

But carry on per your usual after you've been informed of the facts.. :rolleyes:

[sdot_thadon]

By specifying only MJ's Finals opponents, are you saying it's better to face great teams only in the Finals, and never in your conference - are you saying Lebron deserves a free ride to the Finals every year?

Because we already know the 86' Celtics and b2b Bad Boys are equal or better than anyone lebron faced, and cancel out the KD Warriors, especially since MJ faced them 5 times and lebron only faced the KD warriors twice

Without the KD Warriors, all of MJ's Finals opponents compare/matchup well to the 1-2 Finals record of Curry's Warriors(8-10 in Finals games without KD)..

Btw, the Blazers are the worst Finals opponent MJ had, and they were so stacked that Clyde made the 1990 Finals averaging 18 ppg as third option in the first 3 rounds.. they were way more stacked than the 90' or 92' bulls, which had the same rosters

Ultimately, you're addicted to thinking the bulls were stacked, and refusing to accept the historical record of the Bulls' lottery origins.. The same lottery cast that only won 47 games in 89' and barely made the 45-win playoff cut, grew into a champion by 91' and 3-peat champion in 93'.. the only stars were MJ/Pippen, and everyone else was literally interchangeable - MJ/Pippen were the one only common players from both 3-peats.

But carry on per your usual after you've been informed of the facts.. :rolleyes:
I honestly think you have a problem. The badboy pistons aren't close to "equal" with the Kd Warriors. Hell maybe if the badboys added Charles Barkley lol. The 86 Celtics? Sure if you'd like to argue they are on the tier that's fine, but he faced them a grand total of 2 times before the fade. If he had to deal with them yearly as in half of his title runs? We don't have 6 titles. I keep telling you stupid arguments get you stomped in the dirt every single thead. If you don't think the bulls were stacked there's tons of evidence to the contrary. The bulls/Mj were great and both have a claim to the greatest player/team but don't be a dummy, way too old to be this damn dumb.

[3ball]

I honestly think you have a problem. The badboy pistons aren't close to "equal" with the Kd Warriors. Hell maybe if the badboys added Charles Barkley lol.

The 86 Celtics? Sure if you'd like to argue they are on the tier that's fine, but he faced them a grand total of 2 times before the fade. If he had to deal with them yearly as in half of his title runs? We don't have 6 titles. I keep telling you stupid arguments get you stomped in the dirt every single thead. If you don't think the bulls were stacked there's tons of evidence to the contrary. The bulls/Mj were great and both have a claim to the greatest player/team but don't be a dummy, way too old to be this damn dumb.
Lebron never faced the KD Warriors for half his title runs.. :biggums: ... :coleman: .. He only faced them twice, just like the MJ faced the 80's Celtics twice.. You concede these teams are in the same tier and therefore cancel out.

Without the KD Warriors, the b2b Bad Boys are certainly superior to the 1-2 Finals record of Curry's Warriors, (8-10 in Finals games without KD).. infact, all of MJ's Finals opponents compare/matchup well to the very beatable KD-less warriors.

Btw, the Blazers are the worst Finals opponent MJ had, and they were so stacked that Clyde made the 1990 Finals averaging 18 ppg as third option in the first 3 rounds.. they were way more stacked than the 90' or 92' bulls, which had the same rosters

Ultimately, you're addicted to thinking the bulls were stacked, and refusing to accept the historical record of the Bulls' lottery origins.. The same lottery cast that only won 47 games in 89' and barely made the 45-win playoff cut, grew into a champion by 91' and 3-peat champion in 93'.. the only stars were MJ/Pippen, and everyone else was literally interchangeable - MJ/Pippen were the one only common players from both 3-peats.
.

[Vino24]

LeBron stats are also better

[3ball]

LeBron stats are also better
MJ is #1 all-time in PPG and efficiency rating, so no

[Vino24]

MJ is #1 all-time in PPG and efficiency rating, so no
More Points, More assists, More rebounds, More blocks. Thank you good night.

[Foster5k]

3ball is nothing more than 3 trimmed pubic hairs from Jordan's ball sack. Hence the name 3ball.

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron never faced the KD Warriors for half his title runs.. :biggums: ... :coleman: .. He only faced them twice, just like the MJ faced the 80's Celtics twice.. You concede these teams are in the same tier and therefore cancel out.

Without the KD Warriors, the b2b Bad Boys are certainly superior to the 1-2 Finals record of Curry's Warriors, (8-10 in Finals games without KD).. infact, all of MJ's Finals opponents compare/matchup well to the very beatable KD-less warriors.

Btw, the Blazers are the worst Finals opponent MJ had, and they were so stacked that Clyde made the 1990 Finals averaging 18 ppg as third option in the first 3 rounds.. they were way more stacked than the 90' or 92' bulls, which had the same rosters

Ultimately, you're addicted to thinking the bulls were stacked, and refusing to accept the historical record of the Bulls' lottery origins.. The same lottery cast that only won 47 games in 89' and barely made the 45-win playoff cut, grew into a champion by 91' and 3-peat champion in 93'.. the only stars were MJ/Pippen, and everyone else was literally interchangeable - MJ/Pippen were the one only common players from both 3-peats.
.
Way to miss the point slugger.:oldlol: Mj faced the dynasty Celtics 2 times in seasons his team couldn't have been anymore irrelevant. What I'm saying is he didn't face him in 91 instead of Magic and the corpse of showtime. He didn't face them in 92 vs. Portland. He didn't face them in 93 instead of Phoenix. The 86 Celtics and probably 87 Celtics are better than any team he'd see in his title runs. Plug them in and we're talking losses. 2nd 3peat? Still better than any finals team Mj faced. and if he faced them in any of those years maybe they lose. Bottom line is he doesn't go 6/6 facing that level of comp.

The bad boys may be comparable to the 15 Warriors but not the 16 version of them.

So long story short Lebron faced a goat level team 2 times and pretty much the majority of his finals opponents > MJ's best finals opponent. I get you can only play who's in front of you, but It is what it is. When Mj faced a goat level team he watched the next round and the rest of the playoffs from home. Even when he faced just an alltime level team he watched the next round from home.

[3ball]

Mj faced the dynasty Celtics 2 times in seasons his team couldn't have been anymore irrelevant.


The Warriors beat lebron worse than the Celtics beat MJ - so if the warriors were in the same conference as lebron, they would make him even more irrelevant than the Celtics made MJ

And the Bulls faced the Bad Boys' in the conference finals instead of the Finals.... :confusedshrug:. ... That isn't MJ's fault .

MJ is 1-3 vs. Pistons and Lebron is 1-3 vs. Warriors, but lebron's weak conference allowed him to garner Finals appearances before losing to the good team... Lebron simply luckboxed a weak conference, and you're putting a magnifying glass to it.. that's fine with me.





What I'm saying is he didn't face the Bird Celtics in 91 instead of Magic and the corpse of showtime. He didn't face them in 92 vs. Portland. He didn't face them in 93 instead of Phoenix. The 86 Celtics and probably 87 Celtics are better than any team he'd see in his title runs.


It doesn't matter that MJ's good teams never faced the Celtics or Showtime Lakers - those teams faced each other as stacked teams, whereas the Bulls ushered in an era of extreme parity..

Teams had 1-2 stars and the Bulls dominated that league - MJ beat 2-star teams WITH 2-star teams... For example, Magic couldn't touch MJ in 1991 when the casts were even and Magic could no longer luckbox with his super-team cast.. :oldlol: .. :roll: .. #exposed





Bottom line is he doesn't go 6/6 facing the Celtics/Lakers in the Finals


You forget that 1990 was the Pistons' peak year - that team was on the same level as the Lakers or Celtics, whom they'd already beaten or taken 7 games in prior years..

MJ almost beat that Piston team with very little help in 1990... By 1991, the Bulls had perfected their system and would've demolished any version of the Pistons, or had winning Finals records against the Lakers or Celtics..

those bulls invented a superior way of playing (better spacing) and the prior era teams couldn't keep up, as the Bad Boys' showed with their near-loss in 90' and their 91' collapse.

So you're wrong - the bulls were a culmination of all the things that beat 80's ball (great defense, better spacing, offense centered around perimeter players)... :confusedshrug:
.

[egokiller]

Lestans are so miserable :roll:

Lebron is a 6 time loser
MJ is a 6 time winner

If lebron was any good, he'd at least have 6 finals wins after all that collusion. He's just not a winner overall. In fact, it's so bad he needed Ray allen and Kyrie to make the go ahead shots in the finals to net him 2 of his rings and he has never made a go ahead shot in the finals after 8 missed attempts. MJ has made 4.

Keep living a miserable life in having to settle for watching mediocrity in the form of LeBron James instead of knowing you saw the GOAT MJ like the rest of us winners. :applause:

Another one

[RRR3]

“Retired” doe









:yaohappy: