Why were the Spurs a much better team than the Heat in 2014?

[3ball]

Duncan/Ginobili/Parker were 37/36/31 years old

Lebron/Bosh/Wade were 29/29/31

[Haymaker]

Duncan/Ginobili/Parker were 37/36/31 years old

Lebron/Bosh/Wade were 29/29/31

Coach Pop >Spo

[superduper]

Hey OP if I recall correctly there was a player who was playing to maximize his individual stats in a team-concept related game

[DoctorP]

Coach Pop taught Coach Spo something about team play vs talent in that series.

[Gileraracer]

Because a Lebron led team will never have good ball movement.

[Manny98]

Wade was 32 playing with bad knees

Spurs also had Kawhi,Green,Mills and much better coaching

[Prometheus]

that series was the worst I have ever seen wade look. danny green was dominating him. individually. wtf

[superduper]

This guy cited a team having Patty Mills to be a stacked team :lol

[iamgine]

The main reason was Wade, who were killing Miami both on offense and defense. But he was pretty good before the finals. Definitely helped Miami made it to the finals. It's too bad he ran out of gas.

[tpols]

The main reason was Wade, who were killing Miami both on offense and defense. But he was pretty good before the finals. Definitely helped Miami made it to the finals. It's too bad he ran out of gas.


The whole Miami team gave up after getting avalanched to start game 3.

It really was as simple as that.

[3ball]

The main reason was Wade, who were killing Miami both on offense and defense. But he was pretty good before the finals. Definitely helped Miami made it to the finals. It's too bad he ran out of gas.


You think the Heat win if Wade gets his ECF averages of 19 on 55%, instead of the 15 on 42% he got in the Finals???

I don't think so.. a blowout that severe is deeper than just "Wade wasn't good enough"

[SouBeachTalents]

You think the Heat win if Wade gets his ECF averages of 19 on 55%, instead of the 15 on 42% he got in the Finals???

I don't think so.. a blowout that severe is deeper than just "Wade wasn't good enough"
Agreed, but Miami had NO chance with Wade playing like that, but the loss obviously goes deeper than just his terrible performance

[3ball]

Coach Pop >Spo
The Heat won in 2013, so you're saying Pop got better than Spo by record amount in 1 year?

I don't think so.. A blowout that severe goes deeper than that

[StrongLurk]

Spurs were on fire from three and torched the Heat's defense.

They also shut down the Heat from three.

[HoopologyPhD]

Spurs were motivated by the loss the previous year to work hard and beat Miami easily.

They figured out Lebron's game and he no longer had explosive athleticism or a jump shot so he was unable to create any offensive opportunities for himself.

[DoctorP]

The Heat won in 2013, so you're saying Pop got better than Spo by record amount in 1 year?

I don't think so.. A blowout that severe goes deeper than that

so what was it then?

[3ball]

So what was it then


I think the historical record speaks for itself

Coaches aren't able to design great ball movement and team play around lebron's skillset

So his team's talent usually wins early on in his tenures (07'... 12'... 16')

But then his brand gets overtaken by a superior brand with a much higher ceiling, usually by record amount (14' and 17/18')

Rinse repeat... So expect lebron to win 1 or 2 rings early in his Lakers tenure, before breaking his own record for margin of loss as the clippers or another team figures out and completely usurps his brand ... it's gonna be ugly... :oldlol:

[DoctorP]

I think the historical record speaks for itself

Coaches aren't able to design great ball movement and team play around lebron's skillset

So his team's talent usually wins early on in his tenures (07'... 12'... 16')

But then his brand gets overtaken by a superior brand with a much higher ceiling, usually by record amount (14' and 17/18')

Rinse repeat... So expect lebron to win 1 or 2 rings early in his Lakers tenure, before breaking his own record for margin of loss as the clippers or another team figures out and completely usurps his brand ... it's gonna be ugly... :oldlol:

i agree. we all know Bran-ball has a ceiling. In 13 the Heat were much more balanced, in 14 bran-ball took over because of the decline of Wade and Bosh's effectiveness. Bran took over and then lost. A refresh was needed. Bran left.

[iamgine]

You think the Heat win if Wade gets his ECF averages of 19 on 55%, instead of the 15 on 42% he got in the Finals???

I don't think so.. a blowout that severe is deeper than just "Wade wasn't good enough"
Don't forget defense part.

"Main reason" already implies there are other lesser reasons.

[3ball]

i agree. we all know Bran-ball has a ceiling. In 13 the Heat were much more balanced, in 14 bran-ball took over because of the decline of Wade and Bosh's effectiveness. Bran took over and then lost. A refresh was needed. Bran left.
Pippen played like Wade in the 96' and 98' Finals, but the Bulls had goat teamwork, so other guys were playing to capacity and stepped up

With Wade struggling, it would've been nice to activate Bosh, but he'd been reduced to spot-up shooter in bran-ball

Coaches simply can't design great ball movement and team play around lebron's skillset, so lebron ceded the best teams of his era to other guys that beat him (Duncan, Curry, Dirk)

[DoctorP]

Pippen played like Wade in the 96' and 98' Finals, but the Bulls had goat teamwork, so other guys were playing to capacity and stepped up

With Wade struggling, it would've been nice to activate Bosh, but he'd been reduced to spot-up shooter in bran-ball

Coaches simply can't design great ball movement and team play around lebron's skillset, lebron ceded the best teams of his era to other guys that beat him (Duncan, Curry, Dirk)

interesting to see what happens with AD in LA

[sdot_thadon]

Pretty much everything that went into it was mentioned here.

Spurs had a deep, motivated cast. They were chomping at the bit all season to get back at miami.

Miami as a team was tired, more on that later in the post. 4 straight finals and had some pretty hard fought series. 2012 olympics sprinkled dead in the middle of that run. A team full of vets. And if you stop with the bs narrative the spurs were a younger team overall.

The Spurs had 4 guys with +10 season careers
The Heat had 9, i know double the amount.

The Spurs actual playing rotation had 4 guys over 30
The Heats rotation had 4 guys under 30

that should help clear things up.

Now. About that defense. I keep seeing you admit you don't actually watch the modern games, I'll help you understand what actually happened under the surface. The Heat played a type of defense that required alot of energy, switching and scrambling recoveries on the weak side to make up for odd defensive rotation. It worked brilliantly the 1st 3 years even though there was a slow decline in defensive rank from season to season. Lebron, Wade, and Bosh made it work but everyone with any sense was going on about how it wasn't a sustainable style of defense to play for a veteran team. By 2014 it was clear and their defense was considerably worse in the regular season than it had been. Pop being the genius he is figured out ways to wear them down even more with even more ball movement. The passing style of the spurs was really making good, safe passes and getting the ball to switch sides of the floor multiple times a posession if possible. That required the heat to do alot of scrambling to cover switches etc. for a bunch of guys in their mid 30s it wasn't happening. So the spurs routinely got good looks in that finals series and when they got them, they nailed them.

I've never been a Spurs fan but thar was beautiful basketball in 2014.

[3ball]

Pretty much everything that went into it was mentioned here.

Spurs had a deep, motivated cast. They were chomping at the bit all season to get back at miami.

Miami as a team was tired, more on that later in the post. 4 straight finals and had some pretty hard fought series. 2012 olympics sprinkled dead in the middle of that run. A team full of vets. And if you stop with the bs narrative the spurs were a younger team overall.

The Spurs had 4 guys with +10 season careers
The Heat had 9, i know double the amount.

The Spurs actual playing rotation had 4 guys over 30
The Heats rotation had 4 guys under 30

that should help clear things up.

Now. About that defense. I keep seeing you admit you don't actually watch the modern games, I'll help you understand what actually happened under the surface. The Heat played a type of defense that required alot of energy, switching and scrambling recoveries on the weak side to make up for odd defensive rotation. It worked brilliantly the 1st 3 years even though there was a slow decline in defensive rank from season to season. Lebron, Wade, and Bosh made it work but everyone with any sense was going on about how it wasn't a sustainable style of defense to play for a veteran team. By 2014 it was clear and their defense was considerably worse in the regular season than it had been. Pop being the genius he is figured out ways to wear them down even more with even more ball movement. The passing style of the spurs was really making good, safe passes and getting the ball to switch sides of the floor multiple times a posession if possible. That required the heat to do alot of scrambling to cover switches etc. for a bunch of guys in their mid 30s it wasn't happening. So the spurs routinely got good looks in that finals series and when they got them, they nailed them.

I've never been a Spurs fan but thar was beautiful basketball in 2014.
MJ handled all the difficulties that come with 3-peating, and succeeded in doing it twice

Otoh, Lebron failed to 3-peat because he's inferior as a leader and mentally.. and his style gives teams lower ceilings than MJ and most championship teams, 3/9

Coaches simply can't design great ball movement and teamwork around his skillset, so his team's struggle on the championship level - they frequently get beat by record amount or swept

[sdot_thadon]

MJ handled all the difficulties that come with 3-peating, and succeeded in doing it twice

Otoh, Lebron failed to 3-peat because he's inferior as a leader and mentally.. and his style gives teams lower ceilings than MJ and most championship teams, 3/9

Coaches simply can't design great ball movement and teamwork around his skillset, so his team's struggle on the championship level - they frequently get beat by record amount or swept
aka "I got nothing for that bro"

you quoted my entire post and couldn't address a single point?:oldlol: Sounds like we're done here.

[Hey Yo]

Pippen played like Wade in the 96' and 98' Finals, but the Bulls had goat teamwork, so other guys were playing to capacity and stepped up

With Wade struggling, it would've been nice to activate Bosh, but he'd been reduced to spot-up shooter in bran-ball

Coaches simply can't design great ball movement and team play around lebron's skillset, so lebron ceded the best teams of his era to other guys that beat him (Duncan, Curry, Dirk)
May 2014:

"The only way Heat center Chris Bosh will see himself playing in the post again is by watching old highlight videos.

Bosh made it even clearer Saturday his days of living on the block are gone.

As in R.I.P to his post game.

"I don't bang anybody anymore," Bosh said. "It's a tired thing for me. It's not my strength and I understand that."

[3ball]

aka "I got nothing for that bro"

you quoted my entire post and couldn't address a single point?:oldlol: Sounds like we're done here.
There's nothing to address

You typed one long ass excuse

I can make excuses for MJ's losses too, like the ones in 89' and 90', or 95'

If we can excuse away losses then mj has 15 rings and Lebron has 17 and kobe has 20

Have a good day

(Btw, you don't address my posts either half the time, especially if they're too long)

[thefatmiral]

They were better the previous year too.

[TheCorporation]

I'm assuming you are new to basketball...That Spurs team was much better than most teams in NBA history, not just the 2014 broken down Heat.

SRS, top 30 team all time

Keep up.

Sheesh

[red1]

because lebron got locked down by the klaw.




we'll see part 2 this coming may.

[TheCorporation]

Side question:


Which of MJ's Finals opponets comes close to 2014 Spurs SRS rank :lol

This should be good

[superduper]

Side question:


Which of MJ's Finals opponets comes close to 2014 Spurs SRS rank :lol

This should be good

So you agree that 75% of the playoffs was much, MUCH harder for MJ and only 25% was harder for Bran?

So we agree that the playoffs overall were MUCH tougher for MJ?

Thanks and bye.

[Mr Feeny]

Wade was 32 playing with bad knees

Spurs also had Kawhi,Green,Mills and much better coaching

Baby Kawhi. And scrubs. Miami had Battier, Allen, Chalmers, Anderson, and Haslem.

The spurs got more than the sum of its parts. Miami got less.

[DoctorP]

LeBron knows Bran-ball is limited to Finals losses in weak conferences, that's why he teams up with other top players all the time, leaving scorched earth behind.

He is...inevitable.

[Spurs m8]

This guy cited a team having Patty Mills to be a stacked team :lol

The low IQ moron is the gift that keeps on giving

A classic Bron stan

[superduper]

The low IQ moron is the gift that keeps on giving

A classic Bron stan

Imagine if Bran ever had Patty Mills LMFAO.

I like the dude but he would be thrown under the bus and part of trade offer packages for Kawhi in about 2 months.

Bran stans are legit so out of touch with reality it's quite amazing.

[Hey Yo]

LeBron knows Bran-ball is limited to Finals losses in weak conferences, that's why he teams up with other top players all the time, leaving scorched earth behind.

He is...inevitable.
LOL @ calling Anthony Bennett, Dion Waiters, Varejao, Thompson, Ingram, Ball etc..etc... top players of the league. That's who were on the Cavs and Lakers when James committed to sign there.

[superduper]

LOL @ calling Anthony Bennett, Dion Waiters, Varejao, Thompson, Ingram, Ball etc..etc... top players of the league. That's who were on the Cavs and Lakers when James committed to sign there.

Everyone and their grandmas knew Bran was bringing multiple superstars and overhauling the entire team with new role players. This dumb narrative that "Bran joined 30 win teams!!" needs to stop. It is blatantly false and just further validates Bran and his stans being frauds.

[305Baller]

LOL @ calling Anthony Bennett, Dion Waiters, Varejao, Thompson, Ingram, Ball etc..etc... top players of the league. That's who were on the Cavs and Lakers when James committed to sign there.


HAHAHAHA who are these idiot history revisionists?

Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving

Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade

Anthony Davis

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Hey Yo]

Everyone and their grandmas knew Bran was bringing multiple superstars and overhauling the entire team with new role players. This dumb narrative that "Bran joined 30 win teams!!" needs to stop. It is blatantly false and just further validates Bran and his stans being frauds.
Yeah, James just snaps his fingers and other GM's just let him takes who wants and he gives them who he wants in return....

go play in traffic, dumbfvck.

[Hey Yo]

HAHAHAHA who are these idiot history revisionists?

Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving

Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade

Anthony Davis

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Kevin Love wasn't on the Cavs when he signed and neither was AD on LA when he signed.

You giving superdumbass a run for his money.

[305Baller]

Kevin Love wasn't on the Cavs when he signed and neither was AD on LA when he signed.

You giving superdumbass a run for his money.


oh please that shit was in the making before he agreed to sign there

LECOLLUSION

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA

LEFRAUD

LETHREEFORNINE


HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHAHA

[305Baller]

Lebron Is Good

Maaybe The Most Complete Player Since Magic

But He Is A Lazy ****ing Loser

And Nowhere Near The Greatest

Deal With It Kiddies


Hahahhahahahahahah

[305Baller]

LEBRON WORKS HARD ON HIS BODY

but he lost the respect of his peers, why?

lazy ass spoiled bitch that stacks the deck


HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

[Spurs m8]

oh please that shit was in the making before he agreed to sign there

LECOLLUSION

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA

LEFRAUD

LETHREEFORNINE


HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Its amazing how this guy tries to play us off as idiots when we and he know the truth.

His mom believes all this shit when he's screaming it at her....we aren't his mother though

[305Baller]

Hahaahha
Not 5\

Hahaha

Not 6

7

8


9...
Hahahahahhaha

[305Baller]

Good on Durant for cockblocking that CUCK

[Hey Yo]

oh please that shit was in the making before he agreed to sign there

LECOLLUSION

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA

LEFRAUD

LETHREEFORNINE


HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHAHA
You have the link where James and Minny had an agreement before he signed with the Cavs? Or a link to where James held a gun to Minny's GM's head and made him trade Love to Cleveland?

Same with AD. Who else was going to give up a boatload for a 1yr rental on a team he didn't want to be??

[TheCorporation]

I'm assuming you are new to basketball...That Spurs team was much better than most teams in NBA history, not just the 2014 broken down Heat.

SRS, top 30 team all time

Keep up.

Sheesh

Anyone?

[Bronbron23]

Spurs were on fire from three and torched the Heat's defense.

They also shut down the Heat from three.
Pretty much this. Spurs system and ball movement is always elite. They just happened to hit everything that finals. They also had a defender that could disrupt LeBron which also helped. As far as the heat and LeBron not having good ball movement that's b.s. that heat team had great ball movement. It was the only time LeBron actually played somewhat within a system. He just got beat by a better team. It happens.

[paksat]

Yeah, James just snaps his fingers and other GM's just let him takes who wants and he gives them who he wants in return....

go play in traffic, dumbfvck.

another bad post by Hey Idiot

that's EXACTLY what happens actually :lol

[Manny98]

LeBron was the only Heat player that showed up that series

Wade & Bosh were complete non factors

[Mr Feeny]

LeBron was the only Heat player that showed up that series

Wade & Bosh were complete non factors

In other words, he couldnt elevate better players than the ones Kawhi had?

[TheCorporation]

In other words, he couldnt elevate better players than the ones Kawhi had?

2014 Wade or 2019 Lowry
2014 Bosh or 2019 Ibaka/Gasol


Plus: Siakam, Vanvleet,


2019 Raptors were stacked

[superduper]

2014 Wade or 2019 Lowry
2014 Bosh or 2019 Ibaka/Gasol


Plus: Siakam, Vanvleet,


2019 Raptors were stacked

You're acting like Siakam and Vanvleet wouldn't have been part of some trade package for AD last December if they played under Bran ball. They would not perform up to the level that they did this year if their first option thought that padding individual stats was optimal in a 5v5 game. Newsflash, it is not.

[superduper]

Anyone?

Average SRS of teams Lebron faced in 1st round: -0.15
Average SRS of teams Jordan faced in 1st round: 3.03

Average SRS of teams Lebron faced in 2nd round: 2.93
Average SRS of teams Jordan faced in 2nd round: 3.68

Average SRS of teams Lebron faced in 3rd round: 4.11
Average SRS of teams Jordan faced in 3rd round: 5.39

Average SRS of teams Lebron faced in the finals: 7.75
Average SRS of teams Jordan faced in the finals: 6.84

Next?

[Mr Feeny]

2014 Wade or 2019 Lowry
2014 Bosh or 2019 Ibaka/Gasol


Plus: Siakam, Vanvleet,


2019 Raptors were stacked

But nowhere near as stacked as the Heat. Which means Kawhi can elevate his players much more than Lebron:lol

[rmt]

As a Spurs fan, 2014 NBA Finals was such beautiful basketball from the Spurs that I said everything after was icing on the cake (and that I'd never ask for more) - just sublime. Kinda like Federer after Australian Open 2017 vs Nadal.

[Manny98]

In other words, he couldnt elevate better players than the ones Kawhi had?
No Wade is just dogshit hence why he missed the playoffs the year after no more LeBron carrying his weak ass

Raptors were 17-5 without Kawhi, he didn't elevate shit.

I'd bet any money that the Raptors win at least 55 games next year they don't need that overrated quitter

[Manny98]

Average SRS of teams Lebron faced in 1st round: -0.15
Average SRS of teams Jordan faced in 1st round: 3.03

Average SRS of teams Lebron faced in 2nd round: 2.93
Average SRS of teams Jordan faced in 2nd round: 3.68

Average SRS of teams Lebron faced in 3rd round: 4.11
Average SRS of teams Jordan faced in 3rd round: 5.39

Average SRS of teams Lebron faced in the finals: 7.75
Average SRS of teams Jordan faced in the finals: 6.84

Next?
Average SRS for MJ is inflated due to 2 expansion drafts which dilluted the overall competition around the league

https://aminoapps.com/c/nba/page/blog/how-90s-expansion-teams-diluted-competition-in-the-90s-jordan-luck/06dv_aJJukuYjkz4bwb721RZkWGb84aPrEr

[Micku]

Side question:


Which of MJ's Finals opponets comes close to 2014 Spurs SRS rank :lol

This should be good

Jazz 97 (7.97) and Sonics 96 (7.40). The Spurs in 2014 had (8.00).

Not that it really matters. The Mavs pushed the Spurs to seven games. OKC pushed him to 6 games, and the sixth they went into OT.

The Cavs in 09 had a SRS of 8.68 and lost to the Magic with a SRS of 6.48. Were the Cavs better than the Spurs? Naw. But if you are somehow alluding that because of SRS that the Spurs were a better opponent than any teams that MJ has faced in the finals, then are you to at the same time conclude that the Howard did something that was also incredible and beat a team that was better than MJ has ever faced? Despite losing to the Lakers in the end?

Are you alluding that the Spurs of 2014 would also push the Bulls to game 7 or perhaps beat'em? It's pretty hard to compare them or face them across eras due to the style of play and rules difference I think. But I don't think the Spurs 2014 was not that much better, if they were better at all than the Sonics or the Jazz in their respectful era. Even despite the different rules and style, they pretty much had similar stats as the Sonics.

The Spurs just played really well and were on fire when they faced against the Heat. The heat ran out of gas defensively. Wade played like trash. LeBron was a little bit too late when he got his points, so the stats were a bit deceiving, but at least he showed up. But as I said before, the Mavs pushed them to seven. The Thunder gave them a tough fight. The Heat should've been better and played better before, but they weren't that time.

[LostCause]

Average SRS for MJ is inflated due to 2 expansion drafts which dilluted the overall competition around the league

https://aminoapps.com/c/nba/page/blog/how-90s-expansion-teams-diluted-competition-in-the-90s-jordan-luck/06dv_aJJukuYjkz4bwb721RZkWGb84aPrEr

Nonsense. Whatever effect you hope to prove happened there isn't any different than what goes on today with tanking teams and whatnot. Check this out. Here are the number of teams in the NBA with less than 30 wins, per season

1988: 6 teams with under 30 wins
1989: 7 teams under 30
1990: 7 teams under 30
1991: 10 teams under 30
1992: 6 teams under 30
1993: 6 teams under 30
1994: 9 teams under 30
1995: 8 teams under 30
1996: 6 teams under 30
1997: 10 teams under 30
1998: 6 teams under 30

Here are those same values during LeBrons era

2004: 6 teams with under 30 wins
2005: 8 teams under 30
2006: 5 teams under 30
2007: 3 teams under 30
2008: 8 teams under 30
2009: 10 teams under 30
2010: 11 teams under 30
2011: 8 teams under 30
2012: LOCKOUT SO SKEYYUP
2013: 7 teams under 30
2014: 10 teams under 30
2015: 9 teams under 30
2016: 7 teams under 30
2017: 5 teams under 30
2018: 9 teams under 30

There's so much math involved to prove that the expansion had some profound effect on win totals that tanking teams don't also give teams today. It's a foolish point to even attempt to prove, because it's nearly impossible

BTW did you write that post in the link? That page is hilariously bad and the kid reads like he's autistic no offense lmao

[LostCause]

The Cavs in 09 had a SRS of 8.68 and lost to the Magic with a SRS of 6.48. Were the Cavs better than the Spurs? Naw. But if you are somehow alluding that because of SRS that the Spurs were a better opponent than any teams that MJ has faced in the finals, then are you to at the same time conclude that the Howard did something that was also incredible and beat a team that was better than MJ has ever faced? Despite losing to the Lakers in the end?


Bron stans aren't capable of thinking that far. What you're discussing here is what we like to call the logical next step

That's one step too far for most of them

[Manny98]

Idc about win totalls It's a known fact that the expansion draft made the league weaker

Larry Bird literally said so himself if you don't believe me

[LostCause]

Idc about win totalls It's a known fact that the expansion draft made the league weaker

Larry Bird literally said so himself if you don't believe me

So does player collusion

Doc Rivers said so himself if you don't believe me

[Manny98]

So does player collusion

Doc Rivers said so himself if you don't believe me
Proof?

[NBAGOAT]

Nonsense. Whatever effect you hope to prove happened there isn't any different than what goes on today with tanking teams and whatnot. Check this out. Here are the number of teams in the NBA with less than 30 wins, per season

1988: 6 teams with under 30 wins
1989: 7 teams under 30
1990: 7 teams under 30
1991: 10 teams under 30
1992: 6 teams under 30
1993: 6 teams under 30
1994: 9 teams under 30
1995: 8 teams under 30
1996: 6 teams under 30
1997: 10 teams under 30
1998: 6 teams under 30

Here are those same values during LeBrons era

2004: 6 teams with under 30 wins
2005: 8 teams under 30
2006: 5 teams under 30
2007: 3 teams under 30
2008: 8 teams under 30
2009: 10 teams under 30
2010: 11 teams under 30
2011: 8 teams under 30
2012: LOCKOUT SO SKEYYUP
2013: 7 teams under 30
2014: 10 teams under 30
2015: 9 teams under 30
2016: 7 teams under 30
2017: 5 teams under 30
2018: 9 teams under 30

There's so much math involved to prove that the expansion had some profound effect on win totals that tanking teams don't also give teams today. It's a foolish point to even attempt to prove, because it's nearly impossible

BTW did you write that post in the link? That page is hilariously bad and the kid reads like he's autistic no offense lmao

it's not too complicated, you have to look at the variance of win totals for every year of the nba and see if there's a meaningful difference between an expansion year and non expansion or could it be explained by randomness/other factors like tanking. beyond my paygrade however. I think it's ok to assume there's a small effect however.

There's a little disconnect that 5 of the best regular season teams come from 71, 72, 96, 97. Not saying they arent goat lvl but seems like it's not just coincidental. Hence why some argue 91 or 92 Bulls over the 2nd 3 peat versions(i think most will argue 92 over 97 at least).

2 others come from a notoriously top heavy year in 16 where there are 4 elite teams, 2 pretty good ones, and teams ranging from mediocre to trash(apologies to hawks who I liked and had a better srs than the other 48 win teams but still not noteworthy). The west was great that decade but for some reason that year couldnt even produce 8 positive srs teams. Hinkie's sixers definitely didnt help and are essentially an expansion team lol.

I would argue nba incorporating aba teams is different since you're adding a lot of professional lvl talent including some elite talent.

[NBAGOAT]

Jazz 97 (7.97) and Sonics 96 (7.40). The Spurs in 2014 had (8.00).

Not that it really matters. The Mavs pushed the Spurs to seven games. OKC pushed him to 6 games, and the sixth they went into OT.

The Cavs in 09 had a SRS of 8.68 and lost to the Magic with a SRS of 6.48. Were the Cavs better than the Spurs? Naw. But if you are somehow alluding that because of SRS that the Spurs were a better opponent than any teams that MJ has faced in the finals, then are you to at the same time conclude that the Howard did something that was also incredible and beat a team that was better than MJ has ever faced? Despite losing to the Lakers in the end?

Are you alluding that the Spurs of 2014 would also push the Bulls to game 7 or perhaps beat'em? It's pretty hard to compare them or face them across eras due to the style of play and rules difference I think. But I don't think the Spurs 2014 was not that much better, if they were better at all than the Sonics or the Jazz in their respectful era. Even despite the different rules and style, they pretty much had similar stats as the Sonics.

The Spurs just played really well and were on fire when they faced against the Heat. The heat ran out of gas defensively. Wade played like trash. LeBron was a little bit too late when he got his points, so the stats were a bit deceiving, but at least he showed up. But as I said before, the Mavs pushed them to seven. The Thunder gave them a tough fight. The Heat should've been better and played better before, but they weren't that time.

counterpoint, the spurs rested more than most elite teams in nba history. 5 out of their top 7 players in minutes played <70 games. Meanwhile the sonics had one significant injury in detlef who played 63 and sloan never rested anybody. I would put the spurs over the sonics/jazz personally even though I wouldnt have them beating the 96 or 97 Bulls.

srs is by no means perfect for judging teams, for one the coasting factor, but it's a good default

The spurs did have some trouble in the playoffs but there's really nothing wrong with having trouble with okc who's a great team in their own right and honestly likely better than miami. Sonics had trouble with the jazz in 96 and the jazz had trouble with houston.

The first round series is a black mark but that is something that is not uncommon with some great teams who have some trouble because a lot can happen in a 7 game series. 08 celtics, 92 Bulls, 88 lakers etc are some teams who had trouble with clearly worse teams in the playoffs but it's ok because they won a title. Meanwhile, the spurs at least easily beat some good teams in miami and portland

[brooks_thompson]

All's I know is that was the most satisfying revenge arc I've ever seen. Better than any other sport, better than any movie or TV show. When Tim Duncan matter-of-factly said 'we'll do it this time' before the series I knew shit was real. And games 3-5 were so ****ing satisfying. The only thing that comes close to me was '04 Pistons. By game 3 you just knew they were the better team because they cared more and were more prepared. If the Lakers/Heat had been as ready, then it could've been a real series. But that's not to take away from the Pistons/Spurs, because they never let off the gas pedal and just embarrassed the other team. It was beautiful.

[Micku]

counterpoint, the spurs rested more than most elite teams in nba history. 5 out of their top 7 players in minutes played <70 games. Meanwhile the sonics had one significant injury in detlef who played 63 and sloan never rested anybody. I would put the spurs over the sonics/jazz personally even though I wouldnt have them beating the 96 or 97 Bulls.

srs is by no means perfect for judging teams, for one the coasting factor, but it's a good default

The spurs did have some trouble in the playoffs but there's really nothing wrong with having trouble with okc who's a great team in their own right and honestly likely better than miami. Sonics had trouble with the jazz in 96 and the jazz had trouble with houston.

The first round series is a black mark but that is something that is not uncommon with some great teams who have some trouble because a lot can happen in a 7 game series. 08 celtics, 92 Bulls, 88 lakers etc are some teams who had trouble with clearly worse teams in the playoffs but it's ok because they won a title. Meanwhile, the spurs at least easily beat some good teams in miami and portland

I have both a counterpoint and a question.

The counterpoint of that they rested their more than the elite teams is because they needed to rest up for the playoffs due to the old age and potential injuries. I would say that they either had no choice or it would've be the most effective if they would've done that. They were the oldest team in the league or one of them and Pop knew his squad and the Spurs organization were cautious with their health. If they were to to play more than 30 mpg, they possibly would've been worse than what they were due to fatigue and potential injury.

They cut their loses and looked up at the main praise. They kind'a got in trouble for it when they did it against the Miami Heat on a national TV night. And Tony Parker complained about it a bit against Pop, saying he isn't old.

So basically, they were the most efficient that way. It probably helped them win the the championship because if they did it otherwise, they may have not win it all or could had a tougher time doing it.

I personally don't think they are that much better than the Jazz or the Sonics if at all. It would've been a interesting match up to say the least. The Spurs did destroy the Heat, which was impressive. But I think it's safe to say that the Sonics went up against a historic team. A team that I think only a handful a teams could possibly beat.

I have a question for you. Somewhat related to how good the Spurs 2014 were, but more a question over good teams overall.

As you said, we see teams who have trouble in the playoffs who are often considered to be great. The 92 Bulls, the 88 Lakers, 08 Celts, and etc. Does it deter you a bit about how great they were or how underrated their competition is?

For two recent examples, Houston 2018 and Thunder 2016. Both of them had the Warriors on the ropes. Close to beating them. The Thunder 2016 couldn't seal the deal, losing a 3-1 lead and Houston 2018 lost, perhaps in a large part due to CP3 being injured. Does it make you reflect in how good the teams are in comparison to the teams that just dominated ie Sixers 83, Bucks 71, 96 and 91 Bulls, GSW 2017 and 01 Lakers?

Like do you judge how great a team is due to RS and playoffs performance or playoff performance only? Cuz a majority of ppl have the Celts 08 as one of the best teams ever despite them struggling the first two rounds, and didn't dominate until later in the finals. Meanwhile the Lakers 01 steamed rolled the competition.

[NBAGOAT]

I have both a counterpoint and a question.

The counterpoint of that they rested their more than the elite teams is because they needed to rest up for the playoffs due to the old age and potential injuries. I would say that they either had no choice or it would've be the most effective if they would've done that. They were the oldest team in the league or one of them and Pop knew his squad and the Spurs organization were cautious with their health. If they were to to play more than 30 mpg, they possibly would've been worse than what they were due to fatigue and potential injury.

They cut their loses and looked up at the main praise. They kind'a got in trouble for it when they did it against the Miami Heat on a national TV night. And Tony Parker complained about it a bit against Pop, saying he isn't old.

So basically, they were the most efficient that way. It probably helped them win the the championship because if they did it otherwise, they may have not win it all or could had a tougher time doing it.

I personally don't think they are that much better than the Jazz or the Sonics if at all. It would've been a interesting match up to say the least. The Spurs did destroy the Heat, which was impressive. But I think it's safe to say that the Sonics went up against a historic team. A team that I think only a handful a teams could possibly beat.

I have a question for you. Somewhat related to how good the Spurs 2014 were, but more a question over good teams overall.

As you said, we see teams who have trouble in the playoffs who are often considered to be great. The 92 Bulls, the 88 Lakers, 08 Celts, and etc. Does it deter you a bit about how great they were or how underrated their competition is?

For two recent examples, Houston 2018 and Thunder 2016. Both of them had the Warriors on the ropes. Close to beating them. The Thunder 2016 couldn't seal the deal, losing a 3-1 lead and Houston 2018 lost, perhaps in a large part due to CP3 being injured. Does it make you reflect in how good the teams are in comparison to the teams that just dominated ie Sixers 83, Bucks 71, 96 and 91 Bulls, GSW 2017 and 01 Lakers?

Like do you judge how great a team is due to RS and playoffs performance or playoff performance only? Cuz a majority of ppl have the Celts 08 as one of the best teams ever despite them struggling the first two rounds, and didn't dominate until later in the finals. Meanwhile the Lakers 01 steamed rolled the competition.

sonics do have the historic team problem cant be blamed for losing, jazz a little less so however. On the other hand, the jazz loss in 6 was a lot closer than the sonics. it should be considered how much you lose by.

I get your point about the spurs having to rest, it's true and age is a flaw of theirs. My point was more to emphasize their full strength play was undersold by their srs. I think I cite backpicks too much here but this is informative and shows the 14 spurs are the 6th best healthy team of all time based on srs(playoffs included) http://www.backpicks.com/2016/07/18/top-healthy-teams-in-nba-history/

To answer your question, I think it's just a case by case basis but i dont doc a team too much overall. I use a combination of rs+ps but I weigh rs more than most. I will give credit to a team that really stomps their playoff competition however. It's an indicator they coasted 01 lakers being an obvious example and their competition was good. You kind of have to judge competition separately, basing how good they are on one series is a mistake imo.

It's a mathematical fact that if two teams are completely evenly matched, there's a 12.5% chance the series ends in a sweep. We never worry too much when a great team loses 3 in a row during the rs, it's a bigger deal in the playoffs since you're focused giving full effort but a lot is possible in a short 7 game series.

I wouldnt doc the warriors too much in 16 and 18, the thunder and rockets are elite teams. They are clearly worse than the 17 warriors but not just because the 17 warriors didnt have a competitive playoff series. There's a rs gap too.

I would have celtics pretty high too but not top 10 or anything. It may be the playoff series but they also dont have the rs resume of the greatest teams. There's a difference between playing down to your competition and actually getting challenged however which can be pretty subjective to decide. I think that's the case the hawks series at least however. It's something to doc the spurs for since I dont think they really played down vs the mavs but this is something that can be easily disagreed on

[Mr Feeny]

No Wade is just dogshit hence why he missed the playoffs the year after no more LeBron carrying his weak ass

Raptors were 17-5 without Kawhi, he didn't elevate shit.

I'd bet any money that the Raptors win at least 55 games next year they don't need that overrated quitter

Since Wade is a much better player than anyone on the Raptors, I guess Kawki elevated his teammates more than Lebron did.

[aau]

"Proof?"


2010

BOS ... 50-32 … 35 year olds beat CLE in ECS
CLE .... 61-21 .. that -69 (-18, -10, -32, -9)
TOR ... 40-42 … missed postseason by one game
MIA ... 47-35 …. L 1-4 to BOS (-9, -33, -2, -10)


2011

BOS ... 56-26 …. lost IN ECS . . . draft would have brought comp
CLE …. 19-63 …. 1 kyrie 9 kemba 11 klay 15 kawhi 30 butler
TOR ... 22-60 …. raps may've drafted kawhi 2go/w bosh
MIA …. 58-24 …. heat may've paired butler w/wade

instead:

CHI …. 62-20 ….. one player team wins over 60 games
ORL …. 52-30 …. L 2-4 in first round to the hawks
ATL …. 44-38 ….. no player averaged near 20
NYK …. 42-40 …. L 0-4 first round to BOS


cavs may have drafted jimmy butler

taken last in the first round

[baudkarma]

This explanation of the Spurs gameplan is pretty spot on:




Now. About that defense. I keep seeing you admit you don't actually watch the modern games, I'll help you understand what actually happened under the surface. The Heat played a type of defense that required alot of energy, switching and scrambling recoveries on the weak side to make up for odd defensive rotation. It worked brilliantly the 1st 3 years even though there was a slow decline in defensive rank from season to season. Lebron, Wade, and Bosh made it work but everyone with any sense was going on about how it wasn't a sustainable style of defense to play for a veteran team. By 2014 it was clear and their defense was considerably worse in the regular season than it had been. Pop being the genius he is figured out ways to wear them down even more with even more ball movement. The passing style of the spurs was really making good, safe passes and getting the ball to switch sides of the floor multiple times a posession if possible. That required the heat to do alot of scrambling to cover switches etc. for a bunch of guys in their mid 30s it wasn't happening. So the spurs routinely got good looks in that finals series and when they got them, they nailed them.

I've never been a Spurs fan but thar was beautiful basketball in 2014.

Psychologically, the Heat were overconfident. They could write off the game one loss to Lebrons cramps, and had won game two. They were returning home, where they were 8-0 in the playoffs, and had already penciled in two more wins and a chance to close the series out in game five.

And lets face it, the Spurs got ridiculously hot. Sure, their ball movement created lots of open looks, but the Spurs shot 75% from the field in the first half when they were building that huge lead. By the time they cooled off, the game was out of reach. When the Spurs repeated their performance in game 4, once again showing that the Heat could not stop them, the series was effectively over.

[superduper]

Teamwork (player movement and ball movement) will always >> one guy monopolizing the offense for statpadding purposes

[Manny98]

Since Wade is a much better player than anyone on the Raptors, I guess Kawki elevated his teammates more than Lebron did.
Siakam > 2014 Wade

[Gougou]

Duncan/Parker/Gino + Young Kawhi + Pop + bench players like Diaw.

That team had a way much offense the Heat can't handle it, Wade/Bosh played very bad too. Wade got locked by Green/Kawhi

[Mr Feeny]

Siakam > 2014 Wade

So an all time great like Wade looked horrible playing with Lebron? As did Bosh? As did Allen and Battier?
While Kawhi elevated lesser players like Siakam?

Interesting.

[Manny98]

Kawhi elevates his teammates?

Might be the dumbest statement i've ever heard :roll:

[AussieSteve]

Why?

Because they had 4 of the best 5 players in the series.

It's pretty obvious.

[Micku]

sonics do have the historic team problem cant be blamed for losing, jazz a little less so however. On the other hand, the jazz loss in 6 was a lot closer than the sonics. it should be considered how much you lose by.

I get your point about the spurs having to rest, it's true and age is a flaw of theirs. My point was more to emphasize their full strength play was undersold by their srs. I think I cite backpicks too much here but this is informative and shows the 14 spurs are the 6th best healthy team of all time based on srs(playoffs included) http://www.backpicks.com/2016/07/18/top-healthy-teams-in-nba-history/

To answer your question, I think it's just a case by case basis but i dont doc a team too much overall. I use a combination of rs+ps but I weigh rs more than most. I will give credit to a team that really stomps their playoff competition however. It's an indicator they coasted 01 lakers being an obvious example and their competition was good. You kind of have to judge competition separately, basing how good they are on one series is a mistake imo.

It's a mathematical fact that if two teams are completely evenly matched, there's a 12.5% chance the series ends in a sweep. We never worry too much when a great team loses 3 in a row during the rs, it's a bigger deal in the playoffs since you're focused giving full effort but a lot is possible in a short 7 game series.

I wouldnt doc the warriors too much in 16 and 18, the thunder and rockets are elite teams. They are clearly worse than the 17 warriors but not just because the 17 warriors didnt have a competitive playoff series. There's a rs gap too.

I would have celtics pretty high too but not top 10 or anything. It may be the playoff series but they also dont have the rs resume of the greatest teams. There's a difference between playing down to your competition and actually getting challenged however which can be pretty subjective to decide. I think that's the case the hawks series at least however. It's something to doc the spurs for since I dont think they really played down vs the mavs but this is something that can be easily disagreed on

Yeah, I was wondering about that. I mostly agree with you that it's a case by case basis on the playoff series. It depends on the matchup and how well each team adapts to one another. However, I still feel a certain way when a great RS team struggles a bit in the playoffs. It depends on the team that they face and the context of what happened within that series, but it always makes me wonder "If they THAT great?" in the first place. Not necessary saying that they aren't a great team, but what happened in the playoffs that doesn't translate into playoff dominance? I'm talking about like Cavs 09, 10. GSW 16. Going back further, late 90s Lakers and mid to early 90s Spurs.

Like I remember in 98, ppl had the Lakers as a championship contender and a possibility for them to battle the Bulls in the finals. Then they got swept by the Jazz. Pretty much dominated two years in a row. Then ppl say they weren't ready, they may have the talent, but not the actual team play, they were too young, and etc. Clearly they weren't together like the Jazz were despite being so close in record.

But this kept happening like 3 years in row. The year prior and the year after. It was only when Phil Jackson got there did things changed. Hence going back to the another point. At which point could we acknowledge that a team, despite their success in the RS, they would just have tougher time in the playoffs? Like they weren't as good as their record stat they are or the other team is better than they record is?

Although upsets do happen, but somehow if a great team were to struggle in the playoffs against a team that they shouldn't have that much trouble trying to beat, it always make stop, pause and ask why. Sometimes it's injury, sometimes it's just the other team playing it's heart out, sometimes the team with the better record is playing like trash, sometimes it's just that the team with the better record is just not better than the other team despite what the stats would tell us. I do find it's more rare for top tier teams to have this problem, but it happens.

And it goes both ways I suppose. I think there are times even with Team A beating Team B, but imo I still don't think they are necessary better than that team. Like the Kings 2002. I don't really think the Lakers 02 were really better than the Kings 02. They got lucky. Luck I guess is all part of the game, but still.

Same thing with the GSW 16. Like the Cavs were amazing on the comeback and win of that series. But if they were to go again, I don't really think they are better. But I don't think the GSW 16 were that dominate either in the post season. Whatever it's due to health or just them struggling. I just felt they were beatable since the Thunder almost beat them.

[RoseCity07]

That Spurs team played some of the best basketball I've ever seen. They were a buzz saw team. No one could slow them down. it was perfect team ball.

[3ball]

The Lebron/CP3/Nash skillset has always disappointed in the playoffs with underwhelming team ceilings

The only reason lebron didn't meet the same career-losing fate as his fellow ball-dominators is because he team-hopped for extra talent.. otherwise, his low ball movement and team assist brand would get beat every year instead of almost every year
.

[thefatmiral]

They were better both years. Gino just threw one chance away.

[Rico2016]

So an all time great like Wade looked horrible playing with Lebron? As did Bosh? As did Allen and Battier?
While Kawhi elevated lesser players like Siakam?

Interesting.


3ball alt confirmed

Mr. Weeny Ball