Duncan should be considered a top 3 player of all time and WOULD BE if not for his...

[Gunslinger]

Teammates coming up extremely short at the end of that Game 6 in the 2013 finals.

No one talks about it, but even as an old shell of his former self, he still outplayed an absolute PEAK Bran head-2-head and did everything he needed to lock up the win and be 5/5, 4 FMV's with a chance of becoming 6/6 the very next year. Who would have argued against Duncan being top 3 of all time if he had the second most FMVP's and a flawless 6/6 like MJ then?

Game 6

Duncan: 30/17/1 on 62% FG with 2 TO's, 130 ORtg
LeBron: 32/10/11/3/1 on 42% FG with 6 TO's, 108 ORtg.

+16 for the game, highest out of everyone who played. Bran was -1 and only won because his teammates were more clutch and didn't choke/Pop is a fraud and benched his GOAT player who was dominating the game because he forgot who made him a "GOAT" coach.

Held Bosh to 10 points on 41% FG as well. Dominated on BOTH ends, GOAT 2-way player at damn near 40.

[Trollsmasher]

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1673453/duncanmiss.gif

We have to account for the fact that Duncan got matched up with Bosh aka the softest guy in the league who made Roy Hibbert look like a GOAT center at points.

[SouBeachTalents]

Iirc Duncan did almost all of his damage in the first half. barely scoring in the 2nd half/OT of that game

And let's not forget this in Game 7

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif

[3ball]

Iirc Duncan did almost all of his damage in the first half. barely scoring in the 2nd half/OT of that game

And let's not forget this in Game 7

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif
Duncan missed an open shot to potentially win game 7, but so did Lebron in game 6

The only difference is that lebron's teammates saved him from his missed shot, while Duncan's teammates couldn't do the same

OP is spot on.. Duncan significantly outplayed Lebron through 6 games and should've been 5/5 with 4 FMVP's, and firmly ahead of lebron all-time

But luck happens, so the rest is history - the ball didn't bounce Duncan's way down the stretch in that series

And that's another thing I hate about lebron - he won 2 Finals by 1 possession each, and needed the ball to bounce the right way to win those series.. so we don't know if he's really a 3-ring caliber player, because he's a lucky bounce from being a 2/9 or 1/9 bum

[superduper]

Duncan missed an open shot to potentially win game 7, but so did Lebron in game 6

The only difference is that lebron's teammates saved him from his missed shot, while Duncan's teammates couldn't do the same

OP is spot on.. Duncan significantly outplayed Lebron through 6 games and should've been 5/5 with 4 FMVP's, and firmly ahead of lebron all-time

But luck happens, so the rest is history - the ball didn't bounce Duncan's way down the stretch in that series

And that's another thing I hate about lebron - he won 2 Finals by 1 possession each, and needed the ball to bounce the right way to win those series.. so we don't know if he's really a 3-ring caliber player, because he's a lucky bounce from being a 2/9 or 1/9 bum

https://media0.giphy.com/media/26xBGekbXJHY8KpUY/giphy.gif

[TheCorporation]

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1673453/duncanmiss.gif

We have to account for the fact that Duncan got matched up with Bosh aka the softest guy in the league who made Roy Hibbert look like a GOAT center at points.


/close'r up

[RRR3]

Duncan missed an open shot to potentially win game 7, but so did Lebron in game 6

The only difference is that lebron's teammates saved him from his missed shot, while Duncan's teammates couldn't do the same

OP is spot on.. Duncan significantly outplayed Lebron through 6 games and should've been 5/5 with 4 FMVP's, and firmly ahead of lebron all-time

But luck happens, so the rest is history - the ball didn't bounce Duncan's way down the stretch in that series

And that's another thing I hate about lebron - he won 2 Finals by 1 possession each, and needed the ball to bounce the right way to win those series.. so we don't know if he's really a 3-ring caliber player, because he's a lucky bounce from being a 2/9 or 1/9 bum
Meltdown.

[TheCorporation]

Meltdown.


Big time


The "MJ embarrassing rings" thread really got to him

Because he KNOWS it

[Wally450]

The only difference is that lebron's teammates saved him from his missed shot, while Duncan's teammates couldn't do the same



Good thing his teammates wouldn't have had an opportunity to save him if is wasn't for LeBron himself hitting a 3 to make it a 3-point game a couple possessions earlier. :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Good thing his teammates wouldn't have had an opportunity to save him if is wasn't for LeBron himself hitting a 3 to make it a 3-point game a couple possessions earlier. :lol
Or scoring/assisting on nearly all of their 4th quarter points :lol

[bullettooth]

5/6 > 3/9

Poor LeBron, every one of his opponents took a shit on him.

[superduper]

5/6 > 3/9

Poor LeBron, every one of his opponents took a shit on him.

Don't worry LeGOAT got higher $tats doe :rockon:

[Prometheus]

You can argur Duncan outplayed Bron in game six, but to say he outplayed him for the series is just shamelessly wrong.

[Jasper]

Teammates coming up extremely short at the end of that Game 6 in the 2013 finals.

No one talks about it, but even as an old shell of his former self, he still outplayed an absolute PEAK Bran head-2-head and did everything he needed to lock up the win and be 5/5, 4 FMV's with a chance of becoming 6/6 the very next year. Who would have argued against Duncan being top 3 of all time if he had the second most FMVP's and a flawless 6/6 like MJ then?

Game 6

Duncan: 30/17/1 on 62% FG with 2 TO's, 130 ORtg
LeBron: 32/10/11/3/1 on 42% FG with 6 TO's, 108 ORtg.

+16 for the game, highest out of everyone who played. Bran was -1 and only won because his teammates were more clutch and didn't choke/Pop is a fraud and benched his GOAT player who was dominating the game because he forgot who made him a "GOAT" coach.

Held Bosh to 10 points on 41% FG as well. Dominated on BOTH ends, GOAT 2-way player at damn near 40.

WHAT IFS DON'T GO FAR IN MY BOOK IN HISTORY

[Gunslinger]

WHAT IFS DON'T GO FAR IN MY BOOK IN HISTORY

There's no what if here. It's painfully obvious that a 37-year-old Duncan outplayed an absolute PEAK Bran in Game 6 of that series, which should of been enough to win the ring if not for Jesus Shuttleworth's heroics.

:confusedshrug:

[Gunslinger]

You can argur Duncan outplayed Bron in game six, but to say he outplayed him for the series is just shamelessly wrong.

Dude, it doesn't matter. If you're the best player in the whole world at the time and in your absolute peak, you SHOULD 100% lose an elimination game where a 37-year-old man outplays you head-to-head.

[Gunslinger]

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1673453/duncanmiss.gif

We have to account for the fact that Duncan got matched up with Bosh aka the softest guy in the league who made Roy Hibbert look like a GOAT center at points.

And LeBron was held to, what was it again, 3ball? 16 points on 39% shooting through the first 3 games and 23 points on 43% through the first 6 by... Boris Diaw? And he's "GOAT"? Last time I checked, Chris Bosh > Boris Diaw. Never seen an argument stating otherwise... until now? What say you, Branvestite? Got any more gifs proving otherwise?

:oldlol:

[Gunslinger]

Iirc Duncan did almost all of his damage in the first half. barely scoring in the 2nd half/OT of that game

And let's not forget this in Game 7

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif

He was... 37-years-old???

Even if you want to argue that Bran was better in that game (even though all advanced metrics state otherwise), even the fact there's a debate is embarrassing as this wasn't prime Duncan we're talking about here against an absolute PEAK Bran. What would happen if a prime Duncan faced Bran here? Oh, that's right. We already know what would happen. SWEEP.

:lol

[Gunslinger]

Duncan missed an open shot to potentially win game 7, but so did Lebron in game 6

The only difference is that lebron's teammates saved him from his missed shot, while Duncan's teammates couldn't do the same

OP is spot on.. Duncan significantly outplayed Lebron through 6 games and should've been 5/5 with 4 FMVP's, and firmly ahead of lebron all-time

But luck happens, so the rest is history - the ball didn't bounce Duncan's way down the stretch in that series

And that's another thing I hate about lebron - he won 2 Finals by 1 possession each, and needed the ball to bounce the right way to win those series.. so we don't know if he's really a 3-ring caliber player, because he's a lucky bounce from being a 2/9 or 1/9 bum

You're not wrong here, 3ball. LeBron had bad turnovers and missed shots at moments where it should have cost him the chip. He definitely did more to lose that game than Duncan did. Like I said, his teammates were just more clutch and bailed him out down the stretch.

And the fact we're even having this discussion when Duncan was obviously past it and 37-years-old alone is embarrassing for LeBron. He should of wiped the floor with Duncan considering he's a top 3 "GOAT" and all. If Duncan is supposedly just some top 6-10 guy and LeBron is top 3, how would he have a grueling 7-game series wire to wire where the 37-year-old top 6-10 player had him against the ropes and "arguably" outplayed him in the closeout game?

Perhaps someone isn't as good as they are made out to be and should be ranked much lower.

:confusedshrug:

[Prometheus]

Dude, it doesn't matter. If you're the best player in the whole world at the time and in your absolute peak, you SHOULD 100% lose an elimination game where a 37-year-old man outplays you head-to-head.

I made no argument as to whether or not LeBron deserved to lose. Maybe it is shameful to be outplayed by a 37yo. I never disputed that.

Several people said Duncan played better for the whole series. Which is very false. That is what I was arguing about.

[Loco 50]

Nah, it's even simpler than your premise. If he played in L.A. or New York he'd be unquestioned as top 3.

Probably could throw in Chicago or Boston as well.

[brooks_thompson]

Tim Duncan is why I can't, despite a lot of evidence that I should, consider Lebron #2 all-time. I was alive and engaged in watching his whole career (probably unlike many here) in the NBA, and I just cannot say that I would take Lebron over Duncan if I had to choose between them in a rookie draft. I would take Tim 100/100 times. Ring count doesn't matter, stats don't matter...Tim Duncan was a better player than Lebron James. What he did in '03 was bonkers.

[TheCorporation]

Duncan had the MOST help all time


DRob
Parker
Manu
Horry
Kawhi
Coach Pop

Is this a joke?

[thefatmiral]

I already rank him that high because he was a Ginobili meltdown away from getting 5 championships in 4 Finals MVP

[Loco 50]

I already rank him that high because he was a Ginobili meltdown away from getting 5 championships in 4 Finals MVP
Live by the Ginobili, die by the Ginobili. He cost us 2006 against the Mavericks, tbh. That was a guaranteed ring.

[AussieSteve]

LeBron averages 6.4ppg more one the same efficiency, 5.6apg more, 1.1rpg less.

3ball & co - "TD significant outplayed LeBron".

Do you guys have any objectivity?

[ImKobe]

Duncan had the MOST help all time


DRob
Parker
Manu
Horry
Kawhi
Coach Pop

Is this a joke?

Most help all-time from start to end of his career plus Kobe and Shaq beat his ass every other year in the Playoffs so there's no way he's top 3.

[sportjames23]

Duncan had the MOST help all time


DRob
Parker
Manu
Horry
Kawhi
Coach Pop

Is this a joke?


Bron had:

Wade
Shaq
Bosh
Ray Ray
Big Z
Kyrie
GM Pat Riley

and soon to be playing with AD

[Loco 50]

Most help all-time from start to end of his career plus Kobe and Shaq beat his ass every other year in the Playoffs so there's no way he's top 3.
:lol Too dumb to comment at length.:lol

[r0drig0lac]

Duncan had the MOST help all time


DRob
Parker
Manu
Horry
Kawhi
Coach Pop

Is this a joke?
yes

Shaq had Kobe, Wade, Pat and Phill
Kobe had Shaq, Phill and Pau

this is more help than Duncan had in his career and I only talked about the 2nd and 3rd best players of Duncan's era, I could go on and talk about KAJ having Magic, Oscar, Worthy, Riley, etc, etc. I could do this for every legend and probably all the lakers' legends would appear at the top of the list of players with more help.

[superduper]

Bron had:

Wade
Shaq
Bosh
Ray Ray
Big Z
Kyrie
GM Pat Riley

and soon to be playing with AD

Corp? Hello?

[ShawkFactory]

This is why arguing based almost solely on rings is stupid. Surely you fvcking people realize that by now.

Duncan is a unlucky bounce away from being 6-6...sure. Is he one of the 3 best players ever? Is an unlucky bounce what makes him who he is or isn

[sdot_thadon]

This is why arguing based almost solely on rings is stupid. Surely you fvcking people realize that by now.

Duncan is a unlucky bounce away from being 6-6...sure. Is he one of the 3 best players ever? Is an unlucky bounce what makes him who he is or isn’t?
:applause: :applause: :applause:

exactly.

In that case if we're being honest aren't we just a lucky bounce from philly being world champs?

[ShawkFactory]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

exactly.

In that case if we're being honest aren't we just a lucky bounce from philly being world champs?
Or in general...are we an injury away from team “x” winning a ring in year “y”?

When we talk about all time greats do we really mention rings?

When someone mentions Kareem as a top 5 player ever do we mention his ring count? Or just simply how unstoppable he was?

Same with Wilt.

When people on here talk about bird and magic we don’t mention rings or their “stacked” casts. We don’t mention their finals record against each other. We talk about how intelligent and beautiful they were as basketball players.

6/6, 3/9, 5/6, 5/9...whatever. It’ll all die 20 years from now when people just talk about these guys as players and the impact they made.

[Gunslinger]

:lol Too dumb to comment at length.:lol

The guy posted two top 10's beating 1 top 10 like it was some sort of accomplishment.

:oldlol:

Duncan swept them boys anyways in '99 and beat them again in '03. And in '02, which may have been absolute PEAK Duncan, him and second option Tony Parker vs. peak Shaq and Kobe...


2002

Duncan: 29/17.2/4.6/1/3.2 on 42/50/77. 103 ORtg, 97 DRtg. 23.3 GS.
Parker: 13.8/2.2/5.4/1.2 on 41/16/86. 91 ORtg, 109 DRtg. 8.2 GS.

Shaq: 21.4/12.2/3.2/.6/3.0 on 44/64. 100 ORtg, 94 DRtg. 15.9 GS.
Kobe: 26.2/5.4/4.8/1/.2 on 45/23/58. 107 ORtg, 104 DRtg. 16.4 GS.

And let's not even bring up '04 and Fisher's .4 second bailout. In reality, Duncan pushed Shaq and Kobe's shit in more often than not and clearly had less help when you actually account for context like Parker and Manu not even being on the team for some of the meetings while being rookies/sophomores for others and DRob being a shell, providing much less offense. But "GOAT" help, doe.

:oldlol:

[Prometheus]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

exactly.

In that case if we're being honest aren't we just a lucky bounce from philly being world champs?

y u do dis

:rant

feelsbadman

:cry:

[baudkarma]

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]This is why arguing based almost solely on rings is stupid. Surely you fvcking people realize that by now.

Duncan is a unlucky bounce away from being 6-6...sure. Is he one of the 3 best players ever? Is an unlucky bounce what makes him who he is or isn

[ShawkFactory]

Nah. The Spurs were never going to win 2 titles in a row. If Duncans shot had dropped in 2013 then the Spurs would have lacked the energy and motivation to win in 2014. The Spurs never won two titles in a row, there's no reason to think this would have been the exception. It's actually better for Duncans legacy to lose in horrific fashion in 2013 and then a year later lead his team to a dominating victory.
Maybe...

Who the fvck knows though. That

[jbryan1984]

The greatness of the Spurs can be credited to two things other than talent. 1. Pops is simply the best basketball coach of all time. 2. They all played together for a long, long time. Duncan/Parker/Ginobili's first Championship together was 2003 and their last one was 2014. That is unheard of not only today but ever. Not even the 60's Celtics accomplished winning titles with the same guys 11 years apart.

[Gunslinger]

Nah. The Spurs were never going to win 2 titles in a row. If Duncans shot had dropped in 2013 then the Spurs would have lacked the energy and motivation to win in 2014. The Spurs never won two titles in a row, there's no reason to think this would have been the exception. It's actually better for Duncans legacy to lose in horrific fashion in 2013 and then a year later lead his team to a dominating victory.

Not true at all. We don't know what would have happened in 2014 if they had won in 2013.

And I see no argument for it being better for Duncan's legacy to have lost in 2013 since:

1.) Had he won in 2013, he would have a 5/5 100% finals win rate and 4 FMVP's, which is second most of all time.

2.) Everyone looks at his 2014 ring as more of a team accomplishment since he didn't win the FMVP media award even though you easily could have given it to him, and similar to the 2007 chip, he was the best player on that team when they needed him the most (not the finals) and carried them over the OKC hump in Game 6 of the 4th quarter and OT. If not for that, they're not even the finals that year.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nah. The Spurs were never going to win 2 titles in a row. If Duncans shot had dropped in 2013 then the Spurs would have lacked the energy and motivation to win in 2014. The Spurs never won two titles in a row, there's no reason to think this would have been the exception. It's actually better for Duncans legacy to lose in horrific fashion in 2013 and then a year later lead his team to a dominating victory.
:roll: What kinda bullshit is that. It's never better to have a missed point blank layup at the end of Game 7 of the Finals to be on your resume. To try to argue that result is better than another title/FMVP is fcking retarded

Not true at all. We don't know what would have happened in 2014 if they had won in 2013.

And I see no argument for it being better for Duncan's legacy to have lost in 2013 since:

1.) Had he won in 2013, he would have a 5/5 100% finals win rate and 4 FMVP's, which is second most of all time.

2.) Everyone looks at his 2014 ring as more of a team accomplishment since he didn't win the FMVP media award even though you easily could have given it to him, and similar to the 2007 chip, he was the best player on that team when they needed him the most (not the finals) and carried them over the OKC hump in Game 6 of the 4th quarter and OT. If not for that, they're not even the finals that year.
They had absolutely destroyed OKC every game at home that series, even with Ibaka back in Game 5. It's obviously not a gimme, but there's no reason to believe the Spurs wouldn't have won Game 7

[Gunslinger]

The greatness of the Spurs can be credited to two things other than talent. 1. Pops is simply the best basketball coach of all time. 2. They all played together for a long, long time. Duncan/Parker/Ginobili's first Championship together was 2003 and their last one was 2014. That is unheard of not only today but ever. Not even the 60's Celtics accomplished winning titles with the same guys 11 years apart.

Pop was one of the primary reasons they lost in the 2013 series in the first place. Wouldn't have even been an NBA coach had Duncan not beat the superteam Rockets for him to not be fired. Duncan made Pop, not the other way around.

Perfect example, as you just mentioned, the 2003 finals. Anyone could have been the coach and the results would have been the same as the strategy was give the ball to Duncan and get the hell out of the way. Trying to attribute credit to Pop, Parker or Manu for that ring is literally the equivalent of trying to attribute credit to Rudy Tomjanovich, Vernon Maxwell and Otis Thorpe. It was the definition of a solo act rang and 99.9% of the credit should go straight to Duncan like it does to Hakeem in 1994.

1994 Rockets Finals

Olajuwan: 27/9/3/1/4 on 50/100/86
Maxwell: 13/3/3 on 36/22/68
Thorpe: 9/11/3/1 on 52/50

2003 Spurs Finals

Duncan: 24/17/5/1/5 on 49/68
Parker: 14/3/4 on 38/43/61
Ginobili: 8/4/2/2 on 35/21/81

Game Scores

Duncan: 24.1
Hakeem: 21
Thorpe: 10.4
Parker: 7.9
Ginobili: 7.1
Maxwell: 5.5

Looking at the stats and using the eye test indicates that Duncan not only had less help than Hakeem in 2003, but that he also carried a larger load.

Combined Game Scores

Parker + Ginobili = 15.0
Maxwell + Thorpe = 15.9

And 24.1 clearly beats 21.

Olajuwan: 27/9/3/1/4 on 50/100/86
Duncan: 24/17/5/1/5 on 49/68

:confusedshrug:

[Gunslinger]

:roll: What kinda bullshit is that. It's never better to have a missed point blank layup at the end of Game 7 of the Finals to be on your resume. To try to argue that result is better than another title/FMVP is fcking retarded

They had absolutely destroyed OKC every game at home that series, even with Ibaka back in Game 5. It's obviously not a gimme, but there's no reason to believe the Spurs wouldn't have won Game 7

There's no guarantee the Spurs win a Game 7 vs. OKC especially right after losing an OT Game 6 like that. All the momentum would have been in OKC's favor and the Spurs would have felt like they let one slip away similar to the 2013 finals.

[Gunslinger]

Most help all-time from start to end of his career plus Kobe and Shaq beat his ass every other year in the Playoffs so there's no way he's top 3.

Most intellectually dishonest Kobe stan on this forum next to tpols.

Never takes into account context when discussing Duncan and all his "help," but turns into a crybaby biatch when Bran stans turn the tables on him and list Andrew Bynum as all-star help in 2008, etc.

:lol

Duncan either didn't have most of those players or they weren't all-stars/all-NBA when he faced those Shaq/Kobe teams. The only real constant was DRob and this wasn't prime DRob we're talking here. The only true, "full credit" Kobe beat Duncan series where this is somewhat relevant is the 2008 one where Duncan was clearly past his prime at that point while Kobe was in his and where Kobe had a better team around him again like in those Shaq days. Kobe never beat Duncan when he had the worse team whereas Duncan beat Kobe AND Shaq multiple times with inferior teams. Them's the facts.

And also, it's not some badge of honor that Kobe wasn't good enough to lead his Lakers to the playoffs/past the first round and meet Duncan in more postseasons when Duncan actually had equal/better help. Had Kobe not been missing the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round from 2005-2007 and from 2012-2014, he would have more losses to Duncan on his resume. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

:pimp:

[sdot_thadon]

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]Or in general...are we an injury away from team

[rmt]

The greatness of the Spurs can be credited to two things other than talent. 1. Pops is simply the best basketball coach of all time. 2. They all played together for a long, long time. Duncan/Parker/Ginobili's first Championship together was 2003 and their last one was 2014. That is unheard of not only today but ever. Not even the 60's Celtics accomplished winning titles with the same guys 11 years apart.

Pop was not considered the best basketball coach of all time - at the time that Spurs won most of those championships - really not until the 2010s when they went to the beautiful, passing basketball.

And he made his biggest mistake of all in 2013 putting Duncan on the bench in favor of Diaw and playing the percentages (instead of playing his best players). IMO, if Duncan was on the court in crunch time, Bosh doesn't get that rebound (before Ray Allen's 3) over the player with the most defensive rebounds in NBA playoff history.

Without talent, how's that best coach of all time working now?

[r0drig0lac]

The greatness of the Spurs can be credited to one thing: Tim Duncan
fixed

[La Frescobaldi]

The greatness of the Spurs can be credited to two things other than talent. 1. Pops is simply the best basketball coach of all time. 2. They all played together for a long, long time. Duncan/Parker/Ginobili's first Championship together was 2003 and their last one was 2014. That is unheard of not only today but ever. Not even the 60's Celtics accomplished winning titles with the same guys 11 years apart.

1. Red Auerbach 2. Phil Jackson 3. Pat Riley 4. Popovich

imo the first three consistently made fewer on-court mistakes than #4.

*****

If OP means top 3 player since Michael Jordan

[Mr.GOAT2408]

Top 5-10 player for sure but he's literally the anti-thesis of why many people watch basketball

No flash or flair, these dudes are ultimately entertainers and that's why they're paid as much as they are and for casuals his style of play wasn't that exciting.

I love the post game so watching him has it's moments but that's one reason why he doesn't get the props a player with his resume would normally receive

Plus Popovich and Buford have had as much of a hand in the Spurs being a playoff team for as long as they've been, and that history basically extends back to when Robinson joined the team.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Top 10

Awesome longevity, and one of the more consistent ATGs.

That being said, I rank mostly all the bigmen in that range, GREATER.

Shaq...Hakeem...Kareem. Then you have Wilt and Russell w/ their feats.

[TheCorporation]

Bron had:

Wade
Shaq
Bosh
Ray Ray
Big Z
Kyrie
GM Pat Riley

and soon to be playing with AD

You know the conversation is over when you're citing a 37 year old Ray Allen/Shaq and Big Z.

[Gunslinger]

You know the conversation is over when you're citing a 37 year old Ray Allen/Shaq and Big Z.

Says the guy that cited a bunch of rookies, sophomores and 38-year-old players for Duncan that he had for 1-2 rings max in their actual primes.

:oldlol:

[Gunslinger]

Top 10

Awesome longevity, and one of the more consistent ATGs.

That being said, I rank mostly all the bigmen in that range, GREATER.

Shaq...Hakeem...Kareem. Then you have Wilt and Russell w/ their feats.

I don't see an argument for them being greater.

5>4
2>1

And

5>2
3>2
2>1

The other 3 played in trash eras with bad competition. Wilt was like the Bran of his era and choked horribly, going 2/6 and putting up 18 PPG in the finals.

Kareem played in the WOAT decade of the NBA and won 1 chip with a top 2 PG of all time and missed the playoffs twice back to back in his prime. Then teamed up with the GOAT PG in the worst conference of all time on the most stacked team of the decade and won 1 FMVP.

:oldlol:

[egokiller]

Duncan missed an open shot to potentially win game 7, but so did Lebron in game 6

The only difference is that lebron's teammates saved him from his missed shot, while Duncan's teammates couldn't do the same

OP is spot on.. Duncan significantly outplayed Lebron through 6 games and should've been 5/5 with 4 FMVP's, and firmly ahead of lebron all-time

But luck happens, so the rest is history - the ball didn't bounce Duncan's way down the stretch in that series

And that's another thing I hate about lebron - he won 2 Finals by 1 possession each, and needed the ball to bounce the right way to win those series.. so we don't know if he's really a 3-ring caliber player, because he's a lucky bounce from being a 2/9 or 1/9 bum

And everyone knows it too. :roll:

[And1AllDay]

Pop was one of the primary reasons they lost in the 2013 series in the first place. Wouldn't have even been an NBA coach had Duncan not beat the superteam Rockets for him to not be fired. Duncan made Pop, not the other way around.

Perfect example, as you just mentioned, the 2003 finals. Anyone could have been the coach and the results would have been the same as the strategy was give the ball to Duncan and get the hell out of the way. Trying to attribute credit to Pop, Parker or Manu for that ring is literally the equivalent of trying to attribute credit to Rudy Tomjanovich, Vernon Maxwell and Otis Thorpe. It was the definition of a solo act rang and 99.9% of the credit should go straight to Duncan like it does to Hakeem in 1994.

1994 Rockets Finals

Olajuwan: 27/9/3/1/4 on 50/100/86
Maxwell: 13/3/3 on 36/22/68
Thorpe: 9/11/3/1 on 52/50

2003 Spurs Finals

Duncan: 24/17/5/1/5 on 49/68
Parker: 14/3/4 on 38/43/61
Ginobili: 8/4/2/2 on 35/21/81

Game Scores

Duncan: 24.1
Hakeem: 21
Thorpe: 10.4
Parker: 7.9
Ginobili: 7.1
Maxwell: 5.5

Looking at the stats and using the eye test indicates that Duncan not only had less help than Hakeem in 2003, but that he also carried a larger load.

Combined Game Scores

Parker + Ginobili = 15.0
Maxwell + Thorpe = 15.9

And 24.1 clearly beats 21.

Olajuwan: 27/9/3/1/4 on 50/100/86
Duncan: 24/17/5/1/5 on 49/68

:confusedshrug:

opponent numbers too pls

10 ppg hornacek ...

[rmt]

The greatness of the Spurs can be credited to two things other than talent. 1. Pops is simply the best basketball coach of all time. 2. They all played together for a long, long time. Duncan/Parker/Ginobili's first Championship together was 2003 and their last one was 2014. That is unheard of not only today but ever. Not even the 60's Celtics accomplished winning titles with the same guys 11 years apart.

Much of that has to do with Duncan carrying the load in the beginning, allowing Parker and Manu to grow and develop/sharing the load and stepping back into the beautiful passing game toward the end. Don't underestimate how difficult and RARE it is for a superstar to gracefully go through all the inevitable stages of a career while allowing/encouraging team mates to be the best they can be.

[baudkarma]

Not true at all. We don't know what would have happened in 2014 if they had won in 2013.

And I see no argument for it being better for Duncan's legacy to have lost in 2013 since:

1.) Had he won in 2013, he would have a 5/5 100% finals win rate and 4 FMVP's, which is second most of all time.

2.) Everyone looks at his 2014 ring as more of a team accomplishment since he didn't win the FMVP media award even though you easily could have given it to him, and similar to the 2007 chip, he was the best player on that team when they needed him the most (not the finals) and carried them over the OKC hump in Game 6 of the 4th quarter and OT. If not for that, they're not even the finals that year.

Agreed, we don't know what would have happened in 2014. But when someone says "Duncan is a unlucky bounce away from being 6-6", it seems to me like they're assuming that if the Spurs had won in 2013, the 2014 title would be a foregone conclusion. I'm saying that without the goad of that close loss in 2013, it's more likely that the Spurs wouldn't repeat in 2014, and probably wouldn't even make it to the finals. The Spurs record in their previous title defending seasons lends support to my argument.

[Loco 50]

Agreed, we don't know what would have happened in 2014. But when someone says "Duncan is a unlucky bounce away from being 6-6", it seems to me like they're assuming that if the Spurs had won in 2013, the 2014 title would be a foregone conclusion. I'm saying that without the goad of that close loss in 2013, it's more likely that the Spurs wouldn't repeat in 2014, and probably wouldn't even make it to the finals. The Spurs record in their previous title defending seasons lends support to my argument.
Fully agree with this. The loss of '13 fueled '14. Without it '14 doesn't exist.

The lost championship was 2006. The Manu foul on a breakway dunk by Dirk when the Spurs were up three to tie the game resulting in them losing the series. Miami was free. We blew it. And so did Dallas.:oldlol: Was so bitter at those chokers for that.

That was a 3-peat that was lost all because of one reckless move, and yet, we don't win in '05 without Manu going nuts against the Pistons so:confusedshrug: Manu made basketball life exciting.

[baudkarma]

Fully agree with this. The loss of '13 fueled '14. Without it '14 doesn't exist.

The lost championship was 2006. The Manu foul on a breakway dunk by Dirk when the Spurs were up three to tie the game resulting in them losing the series. Miami was free. We blew it. And so did Dallas.:oldlol: Was so bitter at those chokers for that.

That was a 3-peat that was lost all because of one reckless move, and yet, we don't win in '05 without Manu going nuts against the Pistons so:confusedshrug: Manu made basketball life exciting.

Yeah, if you want the sublime, insane craziness that Manu can bring to the game you have to accept that there will be some boneheaded stuff along the way. Manu is Manu. I'm still glad he was a Spur.

It's crazy to think about, but if not for Manus gaffe in 2006, and that Fisher shot with 0.4 left in 2004, the Spurs could have won five titles in a row. Of course, there was a some luck involved in the titles they did win, so...

[72-10]

Duncan never really "went off" for great peak games. There's not a lot of memorable games to take away from his career. Being remembered is part of being great. For that reason, I dock him a bit and rank him 9th all-time.

[FKAri]

Duncan should be considered a top 3 player of all time and WOULD BE if not for his...


unrestrained *******ry.

[72-10]

is that sobriety?:confusedshrug:

[72-10]

Top 5-10 player for sure but he's literally the anti-thesis of why many people watch basketball

No flash or flair, these dudes are ultimately entertainers and that's why they're paid as much as they are and for casuals his style of play wasn't that exciting.

I love the post game so watching him has it's moments but that's one reason why he doesn't get the props a player with his resume would normally receive

Plus Popovich and Buford have had as much of a hand in the Spurs being a playoff team for as long as they've been, and that history basically extends back to when Robinson joined the team.

Can't expect a lot of pizazz from a 4, but yeah, his game was rather reticent and reserved.

[FKAri]

is that sobriety?:confusedshrug:
I meant to say chivalry. I guess the autocorrect kicked in. They can be so random. But yes, his unrestrained, unabashed chivalry held him back. He's also a pillow muncher.

[Gunslinger]

I meant to say chivalry. I guess the autocorrect kicked in. They can be so random. But yes, his unrestrained, unabashed chivalry held him back. He's also a pillow muncher.

Proof?

Otherwise STFU and GTFO my thread, playboy.

Facts only.

:no:

[Gunslinger]

Duncan never really "went off" for great peak games. There's not a lot of memorable games to take away from his career. Being remembered is part of being great. For that reason, I dock him a bit and rank him 9th all-time.

You clearly never watched him play if you think he never had any great games.

:oldlol:

[72-10]

You clearly never watched him play if you think he never had any great games.

:oldlol:

Yes, I did watch many. I don't think I worded myself very well if you take my statement without a grain of salt; I don't literally mean none, but games that stand out, those games are few and far between. He was super consistent.