Kid asks James Harden why he travels. Harden answers. Now I ask you a question.

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RXx01uJYF8




Essentially....if they dont call it...it isnt traveling. Even said he has a new move hes gonna bring out this season thats gonna look like traveling but it wont be....I assume because he knows refs wont call it.



So...none of this is illegal......



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or even:







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As you may recall the NBA refs twitter account actually released an explanation for the last one:



The offensive player gathers with his right foot on the ground. He then takes two legal steps, before losing control of the ball. After regaining possession, a player is allowed to regain his pivot foot and pass or shoot prior to that foot returning to the ground. This is legal.







So...my question is this....

We have all heard players say _____ wasnt called and is therefore not a violation. Nobody(Houston fans aside) likes Hardens approach but hes not the first to say it. So I ask you.....

Who determines what basketball is?


The rules or who calls them?


At what point is basketball not really being played if you arent following the rules? The rules are there to make the game what it is. If you dont have to dribble.....of course its easier. You can just run by a guy. How is anyone gonna defend or catch a guy who can just....run?


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Is it still basketball?


Ive heard fans say the same. Even on here. If they dont call it....its legal.

That really what we wanna teach the youth? Apparently its what James Harden wants to teach the youth. But is it wrong?

Like....in football you cant hold. If you ever played organized football and rushed a passer(I was an OLB and DE at times) you know they hold you all the time. They will hold you the play after its called because they know the refs wont call it every time and make them 3 and 38 or something.

Is it still football when you hold?

Apparently....yes.


So at what point is your cheating so outside the rules....you arent playing the sport anymore?


Do you differentiate between a violation...and cheating? To me....a violation/foul....is when you accidentally do something. Called or not.....you didnt mean to do it....you ****ed up.

Cheating is more......setting out to do it knowing it isnt allowed but they wont stop you.

Hardens ball handling.

A great many people with their 3 step euro steps

To take it back in time a bit so this is less modern star hating....

Bruce Bowen was a cheater to me. Not just for intentionally trying to get his foot under people...he cheated in ways he knew the refs wouldnt call every time. Like when he guarded Dirk that game by tapping his elbow on almost every shot. Dirk told the ref he was doing it and the ref told him on national TV "I see it....but I dont think its changing your shot" or something like that. That is setting out to cheat in my eyes.


Patrick Ewing would travel on like 40% of all his drives across the lane by the mid 90s when he stopped being explosive enough to get open without it:




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Hed give you the 2.5 step like the first one pretty much every time and the full 3 steps 2-3 times a game.


Pissed me off. Know how easy it would be to score in the lane if you can just run to where you wanna shoot? Got under my skin.

So its not an entirely modern concept that if the ref pretends he doesnt see it.....its ok.

But at what point....is it not basketball?

What makes the activity basketball?


Just trying to put the ball in the hoop?

Is anything you have to do to make that happen basketball so long as a ref pretends he doesnt see it?



If Lebron pushes off every time....Harden travels all game....Giannis(and like 90% of the NBA) takes 3 steps....both he and Durant carry on most changes of direction.....

Who determines if thats still basketball?

If anything you do thats effective is basketball why are we telling kids there are rules to begin with?

If they grow up traveling and triple euro stepping and pushing off and flopping enough.....refs will accept it....eventually. Kids are learning it now. Kids do the Harden stepback all the time now. I watched my friends son do it in his game a while back. Traveled like a mother****er but the ref didnt call it.

So my question for you boils down to....if nobody called it....did it happen?

Is it like speeding on the highway? Nobody wants to drive 60 in a 60....but we would all be annoyed by a 67mph ticket. a 90? Ok. Fair enough. Still annoying...but you couldnt convince yourself you didnt do anything illegal even if everyone else is doing it.

Is the entire NBA just driving 75 on the highway and we are complaining about the speed limit being 60-65?

Does that make us all lames?

[Marchesk]

I really wish they would enforce the fundament rules of the game like traveling. Make these professional high skilled players have to earn their points within the intent for how the game was supposed to be play, not some alternate street version.


The offensive player gathers with his right foot on the ground. He then takes two legal steps, before losing control of the ball. After regaining possession, a player is allowed to regain his pivot foot and pass or shoot prior to that foot returning to the ground. This is legal.


That's just terrible. In what universe was that ever legal? How does losing control of the ball when let you take extra steps? Why wouldn't it be some related violation? It's not like it went into some other players hands or was bouncing around on the floor.

From a certain point of view, anything is "legal" if the ref doesn't call it. But it's also a missed call, or the league not enforcing their rules consistently.

[Kblaze8855]

Even worse...he DIDNT lose the ball. He decided not to go up with it and just pulled it in to keep going. They just cant admit they ignored an obvious violation. The late call looks bad....but not as bad as that. Blake saw it was a travel before he even came back to the ground.

[ShawkFactory]

My biggest thing is the degree at which the advantage is gained. Someone not getting called for taking 4 steps on a clear open break is not an issue in my eyes. To me that's driving 100 on a barren Nebraska highway at 4 in the afternoon.

3 euro steps? 4 steps under the basket? Yea that's a problem. That's going 50 in a school zone and needs to be tightened up.

[eliteballer]

If we’re being honest with ourselves the refs call things differently on a game to game and sometimes even quarter to quarter basis depending on how they feel.

[warriorfan]

The Corey Brewer one gets me every time.

[dankok8]

Good post OP and I agree. Where basketball ends and anarchy begins is hard to tell and different people will give you different answers!

[Loco 50]

Been this way for as long as I've watched, just different characters at the forefront.

Hakeem used to travel while announcers would marvel at his footwork. They'd ooh and awe and talk of his soccer background and call it the dream shake. If you actually watched his footwork he often took extra steps, yet we don't hear anything about it because those steps helped him earn credibility by the way of 2 chips.

Shaq was a similar story. He traveled a lot too, but refs were so worried about contact on the play they ignored his footwork. However, while on the topic of Shaq, it would be silly to focus on traveling while not mentioning the offensive fouls that he'd get away with after he suited up with the Lakers and gained a ton of weight. Shit got ridiculous. Guy was playing football out there and then crying when he'd get it back. We saw dude damn near break Dikembe's ribs while lowering his shoulder into him during the finals and if I recall correctly the foul was given to Deke.

Extra leeway will always be afforded to your big earners.

Same story, different era.

Edit: When those violations are not called the game becomes an entirely different sport and difficult to take seriously. The violations are cheating, because they give you an advantage, but if the "right" person or team does them then again, extra leeway is given.

When a big market or a really egregious error happens during a heavily publicized game the NBA will trot out an official and come up with some obscure rule or bs excuse for why the infraction wasn't called.

Small markets don't get that luxury so we've seent some shit, but don't have to suffer the stupid excuses usually.

Fishers .4 broke me as far as taking the NBA seriously. The rule prior to that shot had always been a player needs 6 tenths of a second to catch and release a jump shot. But, when the Lakers needed it he was allowed to catch, shoot, turn around, fade......:lol

The NBA is glorified carnie stuff. Rasslin.

[000]

In a way, this kind of cheating is a skill in sports. Not everyone can come up with a move that is outright cheating, but the judges can't penalize you for it. It's a sport, you can't change it, you have to make the fans angry sometimes. Especially since how many other sportsmen run halfway across the field as well? 0! I don't see this strategy being picked up by the other teams. So this technique isn't very capable. I think James Harden will get bad because of his tricks, and he's going to travel across the USA https://www.westgateresorts.com/blog/10-historical-day-trips-from-nyc/. But as long as the audience doesn't get bored with it, he'll be allowed to "travel."
Lmao these things are evolving

[k0kakw0rld]

Let's talk about Curry's carrying the ball to better his handling against his defender.

[Jasper]

the ref's blink and think it is a continuation

[iamgine]

Well the game evolve. Back then there was no shot clock, people just standing around for minutes. Was that basketball?

There was no 3 point shot, was that basketball?

What determines is it basketball or not is not the rules or who called them. Rules can change. Heck, maybe far in the future there will be no dribble and a 10 point shot line.

[Kblaze8855]

Well the game evolve. Back then there was no shot clock, people just standing around for minutes. Was that basketball?

There was no 3 point shot, was that basketball?

What determines is it basketball or not is not the rules or who called them. Rules can change. Heck, maybe far in the future there will be no dribble and a 10 point shot line.


Difference is….when there was no shot clock the D couldn’t simply get the ball anyway after 24 seconds. Before the 3 point line you couldn’t take a 25 footer and get 3 points. You’re talking about a league followings it’s rules. I’m talking about not following them. If after the introduction of the shot clock teams routinely had the ball for 34 seconds we would be talking about the same thing.

Im not arguing against evolution…I’m saying…if the rules changed….change them.

To their credit they tried with the “zero step” which essentially legalized 3 step finishes. I don’t like it….but they tell them to allow the gather step. Ok. Not what I was taught basketball required but if you make it the rules in your league…ok I guess. Some leagues have 4 pointers. If those are your rules so be it.

But just say they can carry if you won’t stop them from doing it.

I don’t know why we acknowledge the rule 4 times a season.

If you don’t have to follow the rules…what are you even playing?

I can defend Steph if I can just put him in a bear hug. But you would be right to say I’m not playing basketball.

Why then is it basketball for the offense to not follow it’s rules?

Again….I’m not saying the players aren’t playing basketball…I’m saying….if you call it the way we call it…just make the rules match what you accept and stop bullshitting us. You can make your leagues rules whatever. It’s all basketball….so long as you follow the rules.

If you don’t follow your own rules….what are you playing?

Is it like playing Monopoly by house rules maybe?

A “Well…in my house you get 500 for passing go” kinda thing?

[iamgine]

In any sport, there are some rules that's not followed to the letter and is up to the referees discretion. For example, in soccer often times players tug on their opponent's shirt and it's very often not called. But can they then just make a rule that states, ok everyone is free to tug on your opponent's shirt?

Even in the NBA since olden days, the standard for fouls is different for big men like Shaq and for small guys. I don't see them making a rule that big men, yeah you can go ahead and can hack them.

[Stephonit]

Let's talk about Curry's carrying the ball to better his handling against his defender.

Curry is a bit lax with his handle but he should be able to easily correct it. Bringing Curry up for such a discussion though is ridiculous. Among the greatest scorers ever, Curry has had the lowest free throw rate. It is harder to manipulate against pure skill. It takes away the refs' control of the game. I could probably come up with an argument that the likes of Jordan, Magic, and Shaq are to a degree ref creations with the amount of fouls they received in their favor.