When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?

[3ball]

He can ONLY win with established vets because his style of turning teammates into spot-up shooters doesn't develop players or teamwork.

So the Nash/CP3/Lebron skillset is indeed flawed because it's poor for player and team development, which is why it mostly loses to the Spurs and Warriors' organic brand of ball-movement.

This ball movement brand is the tried-and-true best way to maximize a team, but it requires players to incorporate a different skillset.. The star must frequently not touch the ball, while teammates move the ball and establish themselves as threats - only when the team needs a momentum boost or to break a momentary lull/stalemate does the star step in and assert their dominance..

Unfortunately, guys like Nash, CP3, and Lebron can't play this way because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)

[Ca$H]

He can ONLY win with established vets because his style of turning teammates into spot-up shooters doesn't develop players or teamwork.

So the Nash/CP3/Lebron skillset is indeed flawed because it's poor for player and team development, which is why it mostly loses to the Spurs and Warriors' organic brand of ball-movement.

This ball movement brand is the tried-and-true best way to maximize a team, but it requires players to incorporate a different skillset.. The star must frequently not touch the ball, while teammates move the ball and establish themselves as threats - only when the team needs a momentum boost or to break a momentary lull/stalemate does the star step in and assert their dominance..

Unfortunately, guys like Nash, CP3, and Lebron can't play this way because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball
moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)

Great post. Curry won with Dray and Klay who were the 11th and 35th picks. Both were young and unestablished.

[3ball]

Great post. Curry won with Dray and Klay who were the 11th and 35th picks. Both were young and unestablished.
Yup, that's why Curry > Harden, Westbrook, CP3, maybe Bron depending how you look at it

[tpols]

i wouldnt include nash in there because he actually elevated everybody...

and they were young amare was a baby when he joined the suns, instantly elevated to all NBA caliber, 30 ppg player in the playoffs.

nash's offenses never sputtered in the playoffs...if anything their defense did, but they just lost close.

[sdot_thadon]

When did anyone else elevate a cast like the 07 Cavs to the finals?




oh the 2018 cavs......:oldlol:

[NBAGOAT]

Cp3 and Blake didn

[Real14]

When did anyone else elevate a cast like the 07 Cavs to the finals?




oh the 2018 cavs......:oldlol:
2001 sixers.

[NBAGOAT]

2001 sixers.

03 spurs were worse imo

[Manny98]

2001 sixers.
AI had the best defensive player in the NBA as his sidekick

LeBron had a bunch of garbage cans in 07 & 18

[AlternativeAcc.]

Great post. Curry won with Dray and Klay who were the 11th and 35th picks. Both were young and unestablished.
Klay and Dray have carried Curry all these years, not the other way around.

This his been proven with time. Dray and Klay were always more important to the Warriors success than Curry.

[3ball]

I wouldnt include nash in there because he actually elevated everybody...

and they were young amare was a baby when he joined the suns, instantly elevated to all NBA caliber, 30 ppg player in the playoffs.

nash's offenses never sputtered in the playoffs...if anything their defense did, but they just lost close


Nash did well but he never elevated an unestablished cast to a championship in his career, similar to Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, and other ball-dominators.. It's unfortunate because they could all win a ring if they teamed up a bunch like Bron did, but they'd similarly have weak Finals records..

Otoh, guys like Duncan, Curry, MJ, Shaq, Kobe, KD, Kawhi, Pierce and Dirk have basically all the rings in the last 30 years

And btw, Nash's team defense sputtered more than the opponent's because it's harder to guard ball movement than a primary ball-handler.. that's why Curry had 70-win juggernauts and Nash had teams equal to Lebron's pre-collude years

[sdot_thadon]

2001 sixers.
little known fact was the 2001 sixers had the dpoy and the 6th man of the year; 3 allstars although one went down 2nd half of the year iirc. So i sorta disagre there. Ai didn't have much help scoring but he had good teammates.

[sdot_thadon]

Also I gather Op is also denigrating guys like Magic and Stockton who we pretty similar to guys like Nash/Cp3. Stockton put up the least shots of his own of that bunch but in prime years these guys were all neck and neck in usage.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nash did well but he never elevated an unestablished cast to a championship in his career, similar to Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, and other ball-dominators.. It's unfortunate because they could all win a ring if they teamed up a bunch like Bron did, but they'd similarly have weak Finals records..

Otoh, guys like Duncan, Curry, MJ, Shaq, Kobe, KD, Kawhi, Pierce and Dirk have basically all the rings in the last 30 years

And btw, his defense sputtered more than the opponent's because it's harder to guard ball movement than a primary ball-handler.. that's why Curry had 70-win juggernauts and Nash had teams equal to Lebron's pre-collude years
Lists Pierce & Dirk as having "all" the rings when they have one each :oldlol:

Ditto Kawhi & Durant with 2, although they obviously still have time to win more

[sdot_thadon]

Lists Pierce & Dirk as having "all" the rings when they have one each :oldlol:

Ditto Kawhi & Durant with 2, although they obviously still have time to win more
not to mention Kawhi being the 3rd or 4th option for his 1st one.....

[NBAGOAT]

Nash did well but he never elevated an unestablished cast to a championship in his career, similar to Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, and other ball-dominators.. It's unfortunate because they could all win a ring if they teamed up a bunch like Bron did, but they'd similarly have weak Finals records..

Otoh, guys like Duncan, Curry, MJ, Shaq, Kobe, KD, Kawhi, Pierce and Dirk have basically all the rings in the last 30 years

And btw, his defense sputtered more than the opponent's because it's harder to guard ball movement than a primary ball-handler.. that's why Curry had 70-win juggernauts and Nash had teams equal to Lebron's pre-collude years

Wat established cast, don’t just gloss over his point :lol. Amare was super young as tools said and they won 29 games before he joined. Marion was their one established all star. Their defensive problems had more to do with amare having no interior presence. Their kryptonite in the spurs didn’t play a heavy ball movement style anyway, lot of Duncan postups

[SouBeachTalents]

not to mention Kawhi being the 3rd or 4th option for his 1st one.....
True that, not to mention of all the players he listed, only Jordan, Shaq & Duncan have more/as many rings as best player as LeBron does

[NBAGOAT]

Lists Pierce & Dirk as having "all" the rings when they have one each :oldlol:

Ditto Kawhi & Durant with 2, although they obviously still have time to win more

I am pretty confident if phx pulled the trigger on the amare and Marion for kg trade, Nash would have a ring right now

[3ball]

When did anyone else elevate a cast like the 07 Cavs to the finals?




oh the 2018 cavs......:oldlol:

Lebron vs 07' Spurs:



Sweep


^^^^ That's the proper guage for how high lebron elevated his team

Not a weak East that everyone and there mom was winning with weak casts (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice)

And do you realize the bulls were 21-42 without MJ in 86'?.. They made the playoffs with 30 wins and were really more like a 12-seed-caliber.. Yet Jordan's 8 seed played the goat Celtics closer than Lebron's 4 seed and 3-time conference champ played the Warriors in 18'.. So congratulations, lebron elevated the 18' Cavs below MJ's 86' Bulls.... :applause: .. :rolleyes:

So again, Lebron's record loss in the Finals is the guage for how high lebron elevated his 18' team, not a weak East that everyone and there mom was winning with weak casts before he colluded (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice, before lebron colluded in 11')

[RealSkipBayless]

16 Cavs

Did Kyrie or Love have any playoff success before Lebron?

Anyone know?

[3ball]

16 Cavs

Did Kyrie or Love have any playoff success before Lebron?

Anyone know?
They were already stars, so lebron didn't have to develop their talent, or the team's teamwork to achieve favorite status (they were preseason favorites to win it all, and right before playoffs)

[RRR3]

What happened to retiring, 3ball?

Why are you such a liar?

[3ball]

Lists Pierce & Dirk as having "all" the rings when they have one each :oldlol:

Ditto Kawhi & Durant with 2, although they obviously still have time to win more
I was saying that non-ball-dominant players have basically all the rings in the last 30 years:

Kawhi, KD, Kobe, MJ, Dirk, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, Pierce


While ball-dominant players have almost none without colluding: Lebron, Wade, and that's it (Chauncey wasn't a ball-dominant player)

[SouBeachTalents]

I was saying that non-ball-dominant players have basically all the rings:

Kawhi, KD, Kobe, MJ, Dirk, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, Pierce


While ball-dominant players have almost none without colluding: Lebron, Wade, and that's it (Chauncey wasn't a ball-dominant player)
You have the audacity to list Pierce, Curry & Durant when complaining about colluded titles :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Kobe not ball dominant lmfao

[3ball]

New top 15 based on the OP's logic and the notion that dominant wing > dominant big in modern era:


1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Kobe
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Kareem
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Kawhi
11. Durant
12. Hakeem
13. Pettit
14. Moses
15. Dirk

[Manny98]

I was saying that non-ball-dominant players have basically all the rings in the last 30 years:

Kawhi, KD, Kobe, MJ, Dirk, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, Pierce


While ball-dominant players have almost none without colluding: Lebron, Wade, and that's it (Chauncey wasn't a ball-dominant player)
LeBron had a lower time of possession than Curry in 2014-2016

So how is Curry considered "non-ball-dominant" but LeBron isn't

[RRR3]

New top 15 based on the OP's logic and the notion that dominant wing > dominant big in modern era:


1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Kobe
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Kareem
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Kawhi
11. Durant
12. Hakeem
13. Pettit
14. Moses
15. Dirk
Permaban time.

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron vs 07' Spurs:



Sweep


^^^^ That's the proper guage for how high lebron elevated his team

Not a weak East that everyone and there mom was winning with weak casts (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice)

And do you realize the bulls were 21-42 without MJ in 86'?.. They made the playoffs with 30 wins and were really more like a 12-seed-caliber.. Yet Jordan's 8 seed played the goat Celtics closer than Lebron's 4 seed and 3-time conference champ played the Warriors in 18'.. So congratulations, lebron elevated the 18' Cavs below MJ's 86' Bulls.... :applause: .. :rolleyes:

So again, Lebron's record loss in the Finals is the guage for how high lebron elevated his 18' team, not a weak East that everyone and there mom was winning with weak casts before he colluded (Dwight, AI, Kidd twice, before lebron colluded in 11')
Boi, taking a team to the finals >>>>>>>>>a 1st round exit. I can't even begin to stress > enough. Mj elevated his team back to the lottery while lebron lifted his team to the point they couldn't get lotto picks. This is easy stuff, no need to twist your brain into a pretzel over.

[sdot_thadon]

Permaban time.
Nobody should really ever respond to his posts but shit like that has psychological problems written all over it.

[3ball]

You have the audacity to list Pierce, Curry & Durant when complaining about colluded titles :oldlol:
Again, non-ball-dominators have nearly all the rings, and most didn't need to collude

Otoh, ball-dominators have almost no non-colluded rings, and only 3 colluded

It's funny because you guys complain about comp when lebron was "compensated" for that by getting extra Finals chances via a weak conference, and his own super-teams .. it was on him to have the best teams of his era, yet 3/9.. so don't complain

[SouBeachTalents]

New top 15 based on the OP's logic and the notion that dominant wing > dominant big in modern era:


1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Kobe
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Kareem
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Kawhi
11. Durant
12. Hakeem
13. Pettit
14. Moses
15. Dirk
How many times you gonna change your all time ranking list this year :lol

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13750799&postcount=32

[3ball]

Boi, taking a team to the finals >>>>>>>>>a 1st round exit. I can't even begin to stress > enough. Mj elevated his team back to the lottery while lebron lifted his team to the point they couldn't get lotto picks. This is easy stuff, no need to twist your brain into a pretzel over.
MJ's 1st round losses happened in his first few seasons, when nearly all lottery picks like Lebron, Durant, and Kyrie REMAIN lottery by missing the playoffs

Also, you've said previously that the 80's Celtics = Spurs or Warriors

So lebron's Finals sweeps and blowouts prove that if he faced that caliber in the first round i.e. 80's Celtics, he would've lost in the first round instead of the Finals; he simply didn't have to face that caliber until the Finals, while MJ faced it in the 1st Round

[RRR3]

3ball,


1. Why did you lie about retiring?

2. Why are you constantly changing your GOAT list? And not even minor changes either.

[3ball]

3ball,


1. Why did you lie about retiring?

2. Why are you constantly changing your GOAT list? And not even minor changes either.
It was a quick retirement and I bumped Wilt down below the goat perimeter players, but still goat of the bigs

It's always a fluid list as ongoing evolution tells us more about our past

[Hey Yo]

They were already stars, so lebron didn't have to develop their talent, or the team's teamwork to achieve favorite status (they were preseason favorites to win it all, and right before playoffs)
LOL @ not knowing the reg. season and postseason aren't comparable.

[sdot_thadon]

MJ's 1st round losses happened in his first few seasons, when nearly all lottery picks like Lebron, Durant, and Kyrie REMAIN lottery by missing the playoffs

Also, you've said previously that the 80's Celtics = Spurs or Warriors

So lebron's Finals sweeps and blowouts prove that if he faced that caliber in the first round i.e. 80's Celtics, he would've lost in the first round instead of the Finals; he simply didn't have to face that caliber until the Finals, while MJ faced it in the 1st Round
You never seem to think any of these topics through bro. Mj led the bulls to lotto picks Lebron didn't as a matter of fact here's the picks each had after being drafted:

Mj:
11th pick in 85
9th pick in 86
8th AND 10th pick in 87
11th pick in 88
6th pick in 89

LBJ: 10th pick in 04 and never another pick in approaching top 10.

So basically your argument is mortally wounded on 2 fronts here. Mj not only couldn't elevate his teams higher than Lebron did in 07 but he also had much better draft talent added to his team.

Lastly just for shits and giggles if lebron were to have Mjs draft position in place of his own he'd have these guys available for the cavs to draft:

1 of :biedrens, telfair, humphires, al jefferson, jr smith, josh smith....or perhaps they take luke Jackson like they did that year with the 10th pick:facepalm
1 of: bynum, granger
2 of: rudy gay and jj Reddick, sefolosha
1 of: thad young, nick young, belinelli
1 of: gallinari, eric gordon

[superduper]

This might honestly be the best thread in ISH history

[3ball]

You never seem to think any of these topics through bro. Mj led the bulls to lotto picks Lebron didn't as a matter of fact here's the picks each had after being drafted:

Mj:
11th pick in 85
9th pick in 86
8th AND 10th pick in 87
11th pick in 88
6th pick in 89

LBJ: 10th pick in 04 and never another pick in approaching top 10.

So basically your argument is mortally wounded on 2 fronts here. Mj not only couldn't elevate his teams higher than Lebron did in 07 but he also had much better draft talent added to his team.


Lebron beat his conference earlier because it was weak, but he couldn't beat the league earlier because he's inferior to MJ - the league is the proper barometer and it accounts for a weak conference

MJ dominated the league like lebron dominates the East because his skill allowed the best brand of ball movement basketball that yields the best teams.. So it didn't matter who MJ faced in the Finals - his Finals teams were juggernauts that would never be 3/9 regardless of opponent

Otoh, guys like Lebron/Nash/CP3 can't play the ball movement brand because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)

[egokiller]

When did anyone else elevate a cast like the 07 Cavs to the finals?




oh the 2018 cavs......:oldlol:

Title of the thread says "championship" and you start talking about "showing up".

:roll:

[sdot_thadon]

Title of the thread says "championship" and you start talking about "showing up".

:roll:
i answered a stupid question with an equally stupid one tbfh. I'd have answered why'd you abandon your old account if you were the one asking. foh.

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron beat his conference earlier because it was weak, but he couldn't beat the league earlier because he's inferior to MJ - the league is the proper barometer and it accounts for a weak conference

MJ dominated the league like lebron dominates the East because his skill allowed the best brand of ball movement basketball that yields the best teams.. So it didn't matter who MJ faced in the Finals - his Finals teams were juggernauts that would never be 3/9 regardless of opponent

Otoh, guys like Lebron/Nash/CP3 can't play the ball movement brand because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)
You asked about elevation of a young team, well smart fella Mj was adding top 10 picks for damn near 5 years. Lebron just one. Let that sink in.

[And1AllDay]

When did anyone else elevate a cast like the 07 Cavs to the finals?




oh the 2018 cavs......:oldlol:


welp

issa wrap

[And1AllDay]

Title of the thread says "championship" and you start talking about "showing up".

:roll:


str8 alltin

dispickable garbage human

[3ball]

When did anyone else elevate a cast like the 07 Cavs to the finals?

oh the 2018 cavs......


Lebron took 4 years to get that team to the Finals in 07'

And he didn't win the Finals - so he never elevated unestablished players to a championship, like the OP says

Whereas MJ elevated a group of raw, single-digit rookies to a three-peat.. two three-peats

So a pretty big difference

[Manny98]

When did MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, does anyone know?

[superduper]

When did MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, does anyone know?

Wait so he didn't need an established star (or multiple established stars for that matter) to win? (6 times). He just needed a raw unproven rookie?

When did Bran do that again?

Thanks.

[Manny98]

Jordan didn't win until Pippen became an all star...

[3ball]

When did MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, does anyone know?


Pippen arrived at the right time - MJ was graduating from his 'lottery' stage, where lottery picks like MJ, Lebron, Durant, Curry, etc. typically miss the playoffs their first few seasons before elevating the team to playoff and contender status.

So the Bulls' playoff advance was due to the improvement of MJ to MVP/DPOY in 1988, aka GOAT, and not Pippen's 9 ppg in the 1st Round against Cleveland (MJ 45 ppg).

Ultimately, Lebron took 4 years to get the Cavs to the 07' Finals

But he didn't win the Finals - so he never elevated unestablished players to a championship, like the OP says

Whereas MJ elevated a group of raw, single-digit rookies to a three-peat, and is therefore "far" superior, like Hakeem said.

Ultimately, MJ dominated the league like lebron dominates the East because his skill allowed the best brand of ball movement basketball that yields the best teams.. So it didn't matter who MJ faced in the Finals - his Finals teams were juggernauts that would never be 3/9 regardless of opponent

Otoh, guys like Lebron/Nash/CP3 can't play the ball movement brand because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)

[zeerghit]

Pippen arrived at the right time - MJ was graduating from his 'lottery' stage, where lottery picks like MJ, Lebron, Durant, Curry, etc. typically miss the playoffs their first few seasons before elevating the team to playoff and contender status.

So the Bulls' playoff advance was due to the improvement of MJ to MVP/DPOY in 1988, aka GOAT, and not Pippen's 9 ppg in the 1st Round against Cleveland (MJ 45 ppg).

Ultimately, Lebron took 4 years to get the Cavs to the 07' Finals

But he didn't win the Finals - so he never elevated unestablished players to a championship, like the OP says

Whereas MJ elevated a group of raw, single-digit rookies to a three-peat, and is therefore "far" superior, like Hakeem said.

Ultimately, MJ dominated the league like lebron dominates the East because his skill allowed the best brand of ball movement basketball that yields the best teams.. So it didn't matter who MJ faced in the Finals - his Finals teams were juggernauts that would never be 3/9 regardless of opponent

Otoh, guys like Lebron/Nash/CP3 can't play the ball movement brand because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)
the question was
When did MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, does anyone know?
give the f*cking answer

[3ball]

You asked about elevation of a young team, well smart fella Mj was adding top 10 picks for damn near 5 years. Lebron just one. Let that sink in.
In addition to the other slay (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13784633&postcount=39) I gave to your quote above:

Lebron already had the East two-time all-star center on his team when he entered the league, and also a 14/10 PF, which more than offsets the negligible, immaterial gap in draft positioning that you posted.

[3ball]

the question was
When did MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, does anyone know?
give the f*cking answer
When did Lebron make the playoffs before Larry Hughes' arrival in 06', along with coaching change to COY Mike Brown?

I hope you didn't think the Cavs' improvement from 9-seed lottery in 05', to 4-seed frontrunner in 06' was due to anything other than that

Lebron's stats remained the same from 05' to 08' - they were worse actually on the 2-seeded Finals team in 07' compared to his 05' lottery team.. So apparently it was the addition of a 1st team all-league defender and steals champ (Hughes), along with a coaching change to the COY that turned the Cavs from lottery (05') to contenders (06').

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron took 4 years to get that team to the Finals in 07'

And he didn't win the Finals - so he never elevated unestablished players to a championship, like the OP says

Whereas MJ elevated a group of raw, single-digit rookies to a three-peat.. two three-peats

So a pretty big difference
The timeframe has absolutely nothing to do with my statement. Who has elevated a team like the 07 cavs to the finals? Not 4 years down the road. That year. Mj elevated a team with 4 lotto picks in 5 years to a championship caliber squad. It's 2 completely different situations. But keeping on trying to square peg that round hole fella, it suits you.

edit

In addition to the other slay (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13784633&postcount=39) I gave to your quote above:

Lebron already had the East two-time all-star center on his team when he entered the league, and also a 14/10 PF, which more than offsets the negligible, immaterial gap in draft positioning that you posted.
oh wow just saw this ""slay"":roll: you're going to keep answering stupidly and i could continue to match your stupidity but no thanks "slayer":roll:

[zeerghit]

When did Lebron make the playoffs before Larry Hughes' arrival in 06', along with coaching change to COY Mike Brown?

I hope you didn't think the Cavs' improvement from 9-seed lottery in 05', to 4-seed frontrunner in 06' was due to anything other than that

Lebron's stats remained the same from 05' to 08' - they were worse actually on the 2-seeded Finals team in 07' compared to his 05' lottery team.. So apparently it was the addition of a 1st team all-league defender and steals champ (Hughes), along with a coaching change to the COY that turned the Cavs from lottery (05') to contenders (06').
i will hellp you
the answer is 0 same amount u played games in d1

[3ball]

.
Stats needed to make Finals:


01' Iverson Rounds 1-3 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01/gamelog/2001/#19-35-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 32.3.... 4.5.. 6.8.. 38.9 fg
07' Lebron' Rounds 1-3 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2007#14-29-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 25.8.... 8.3.. 8.3.. 43 4 fg
09' Dwight' Rounds 1-3 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01/gamelog/2009/#15-32-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 21.7.. 15.4.. 1.8.. 62.2 fg.
03' J Kidd Rounds 1-3 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01/gamelog/2003/#43-56-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)..... 20.3.... 8.4.. 8.3.. 42.3 fg






Who has elevated a team like the 07 cavs to the finals?


Dwight in 09'

AI in 01'

Kidd in 02 and 03


So everyone was doing it in the 00"s decade, not just Lebron..

But even though weak casts were routinely winning the East, Lebron couldn't win in 09/10, so he stacked the deck from 11-18'.. Again - he needed established players because his skillset doesn't elevate unestablished ones





Who has elevated a team like the 07 cavs?


Lebron had a 2 seed that got swept by the Spurs - that's weaker elevation than the 6th seeded bulls going 6 games versus the Bad Boys' in the 89' ECF

Lebron never took a low seed deep in the playoffs, while his high seeds are swept and destroyed by record amount

(bulls were the only team to win 2 games off the 89' bad boys.. whereas the 07' Spurs only swept lebron)





Who has elevated a team like the 07 cavs?


89' Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
07' Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)






MJ elevated a team with 4 lotto picks in 5 years to a championship caliber squad.


MJ elevated raw rookies, while Lebron couldn't elevate a 2-time all-star center or a 22/5/5 steals champ and 1st team all-league defender.. :confusedshrug:

In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So that was a LOTTERY roster without Jordan that MJ elevated to 3-peat caliber by 91'

3-peat > getting swept in the Finals in 07'
.

[Manny98]

MJ didn't elevate shit, Pippen,Grant were top picks in the draft who were gonna develop into all star level players by their 3rd/4th seasons regardless of MJs input

They got Cartwright as well who averaged 20/8 per 36 prior to joining MJ

LeBron never had a bunch of lottery talent handed to him on a silver platter like MJ did

[3ball]

MJ didn't elevate shit, Pippen,Grant were top picks in the draft who were gonna develop into all star level players by their 3rd/4th seasons regardless of MJs input

They got Cartwright as well who averaged 20/8 per 36 prior to joining MJ

LeBron never had a bunch of lottery talent handed to him on a silver platter like MJ did


Lebron just missed the playoffs with more lottery talent than MJ ever had

But unfortunately, lebron never developed players - he needed established guys gifted to him, like 05' Zydrunas > any version of Grant.... and 05' Hughes > 88-89' pip

Lebron did less with more

Then he gets HOF's Wade/Bosh and loses with them... Twice... And by record amount... :facepalm... Otoh, MJ never lost in a full season once Pippen was established... :confusedshrug:

[And1AllDay]

3ball,


1. Why did you lie about retiring?

2. Why are you constantly changing your GOAT list? And not even minor changes either.

he is mentall ill leave him alone ...

[paksat]

why are you arguing with manny 3ball?

that guys dumber than wheels which is incredible

[guy]

There

[3ball]

Btw sdot,

Lebron didn't "elevate" his 2-seeded Cavs to a sweep in the 07' Finals - he he carried them, just like MJ carried a 6 seed to 6 games with the champs in 89' ECF

Neither cast was playing great basketball - lebron and mj simply carried those teams

Otoh, MJ elevated unestablished rookies to play great basketball in 1990 and 1991... championship basketball... Whereas lebron can't elevate players because his ball-dominant skillset turns guys into spot-up shooters, so he can only win with established guys that he team-hops to acquire

[Vino24]

Who was MJ

[superduper]

[QUOTE=Vino24]Who was MJ

[Vino24]

Who was Bran's toughest opponent in the first 3 rounds (75% of the playoffs)?
You didn

[SouBeachTalents]

[QUOTE=Vino24]Who was MJ

[Manny98]

Who was Bran's toughest opponent in the first 3 rounds (75% of the playoffs)?
The best team that Jordan faced in his conference that he didn't get swept by were the bad boy Pistons who had a lower SRS than the 2018 Raptors

So by your own logic 2018 Raptors > bad boy pistons :applause:

[egokiller]

why are you arguing with manny 3ball?

that guys dumber than wheels which is incredible

And no one thought that would be possible.

ISH

Where Amazing happens! :banana:

[sdot_thadon]

I cut all the useless trash numbers out of your post to get to the meat of it.



Dwight in 09'

AI in 01'

Kidd in 02 and 03

So everyone was doing it in the 00"s decade, not just Lebron..

In 01 Philly had the dpoy, 6moy, 3 allstars. :lol

in 02 and 03 Kidd had a future allstar in martin and also Jefferson but yeah they were young, so you'd actually have a valid point if they had to overcome any team remotely close to the pistons in 07. They played the pistons in their 1st conference finals appearance. The cavs faced them 2 nba finals appearances later and in their 5th straight conference finals appearance.

09 Magic had 3 allstars and hedo, arguably their most important guy on offense didn't make the team.

nice try.



Lebron had a 2 seed that got swept by the Spurs - that's weaker elevation than the 6th seeded bulls going 6 games versus the Bad Boys' in the 89' ECF
Well now that you mention it, Mj did have a chance to carry his team to an unlikely finals all the way back in 89. Faced the same scenario as Lebron tied 2-2 going into game 5 with a 1st ever finals berth on the line. I'm sure you know how Mj's game 5 went and how Lebron's game 5 went. One scored 25 of the last 30 in an alltimer and one shot 8 times and quit/disappeared whatever you want to frame it with. I'm sure a Jordan historian such as yourself knew this though.



Lebron never took a low seed deep in the playoffs, while his high seeds are swept and destroyed by record amount

(bulls were the only team to win 2 games off the 89' bad boys.. whereas the 07' Spurs only swept lebron)

I know you didnt actually watch Lebron's career as much as you obsess over him but I'll fill you in on a couple of things.
In 06 semis the Cavs had a chance to eliminate the Pistons and see dwade in the conference finals. They gave up like 4 or 5 offensive rebounds in the last minute of i think a one possession game.

In 08 Lebron's Cav's played down to wire in game 7 against the eventual champion Celtics, the ones that blew Kobe's Lakers off the face of the earth in the finals.

[3ball]

[



Well now that you mention it, Mj did have a chance to carry his team to an unlikely finals all the way back in 89. Faced the same scenario as Lebron tied 2-2 going into game 5 with a 1st ever finals berth on the line. I'm sure you know how Mj's game 5 went and how Lebron's game 5 went.


Lebron had a 2-seed and was facing a weak 1 seed.. That doesn't compare to MJ's 6 seed facing a goat team

The fact that you compared the 2 shows that you're pretty naive about the game - no one knowledgeable would compare the 07' Pistons to the 89' Pistons

After MJ's rookie year, the weakest team he lost to was the Shaq/Penny Magic during his comeback season in 95' (bad boys and bird's Celtics were the only other losses).. So he never lost to a 53-win team or anyone as weak as the 07' Pistons... MJ's 86' Bulls would've beaten the 07' Pistons, let alone his other teams





Well now that you mention it, Mj did have a chance to carry his team to an unlikely finals all the way back in 89


It wasn't just 1989

MJ wasn't suppose to make the Finals in 1990 either and Pippen's migraine made sure he didn't - but their 7 game showing against the Pistons showed they would've won the Finals, since the Pistons beat the Blazers in 5 easy games.. Pip's migraine prevented a goat carry-job ring and a 4-peat

(538 still views MJ's 1991 and 1993 rings as the weakest casts to ever win, aside from Dirk in 11' and Hakeem in 94'





In 08 Lebron's Cav's played down to wire in game 7 against the eventual champion Celtics, the ones that blew Kobe's Lakers off the face of the earth in the finals.



Lebron in 2008 ECSF vs Celtics



26 ppg on 35%


So the 08' Cavs took the Celtics 7 games IN SPITE of lebron's horrid showing - their defense held the Celtics far below their normal averages and turned the series into a slow, grind-out series

Obviously, the Cavs win easily if lebron gets 26 on 45%... That's a pretty low bar, but lebron couldn't clear it.





I know you didnt actually watch Lebron's career as much as you obsess over him but I'll fill you in on a couple of things.

In 06 semis the Cavs had a chance to eliminate the Pistons and see dwade in the conference finals. They gave up like 4 or 5 offensive rebounds in the last minute of i think a one possession game.


I watched Lebron avidly through the 11' Finals, and probably know his pre-decision career much better than you.

Regarding 2006 - lebron's 4 seed lost in the 2nd round - it's neither here nor there - MJ's runs in 89' and 90' are bigger carry jobs than anything Lebron ever did so who cares






In 01 Philly had the dpoy, 6moy, 3 allstars. :lol

in 02 and 03 Kidd had a future allstar in martin and also Jefferson but yeah they were young, so you'd actually have a valid point if they had to overcome any team remotely close to the pistons in 07. They played the pistons in their 1st conference finals appearance. The cavs faced them 2 nba finals appearances later and in their 5th straight conference finals appearance.

09 Magic had 3 allstars and hedo, arguably their most important guy on offense didn't make the team.

nice try.


- You're mistaken on the facts - Sixers didn't have 3 all-stars - they only had dikembe, who was a defensive player sharing 2nd option duties with Aaron McKie (Mo Williams >>>).. Everyone knew AI was carrying a weak roster on his back, which is why AI's stats matched or exceeded Lebron's

- You concede the Nets didn't have a good roster... Btw, they played the Ben Wallace Pistons, not the Chris Webber Pistons that lebron faced (a weak, 53-win 1 seed).. so your comparison of the nets/cavs comp is worthless

- Dwight's all-star PG was hurt and didn't play (jameer nelson), so the magic only had all-star Rashard Lewis, who is offset by all-star Mo Williams... Hedo sucked, especially in that series, and was inferior to 2-time all-star Zydrunas anyway


Ultimately, everyone knew the 01' Sixers, 03' Nets, 07' Cavs and 09' Magic had weak teams that would get blown away in the Finals - and they all did exactly that.. But even though weak casts were winning the East, Lebron couldn't win in 09/10, so he stacked the deck from 11-18'... I'm sure if 09' Dwight colluded with Wade/Bosh, he'd go at least 2/4 too.
.

[SpaceJam2]

Soooo what was the best Finals team MJ beat?

:lol

Anyone available?

Just waiting for you to concede the GOAT argument once you do

[superduper]

Soooo what was the best Finals team MJ beat?

:lol

Anyone available?

Just waiting for you to concede the GOAT argument once you do

So you admit only 25% of the playoffs was tougher for Bran whereas 75% of the playoffs was tougher for Jordan?

Thanks.

[SpaceJam2]

So you admit only 25% of the playoffs was tougher for Bran whereas 75% of the playoffs was tougher for Jordan?

Thanks.


De

[superduper]

[QUOTE=SpaceJam2]De

[3ball]

Soooo what was the best Finals team MJ beat?

:lol

Anyone available?

Just waiting for you to concede the GOAT argument once you do

If you deflect or ignore the following points, you're conceding the goat argument


1) Your question is unfair because it was a 2-star league in MJ's day - his championship record was unblemished in 2-star vs. 2-star matchups, while Lebron mostly loses today's 3-star vs. 3-star matchups in the super-team era.. So what's the most points that Lebron's 3rd option averaged compared to MJ's?.. This shows that Lebron had his OWN super-team to face his opponents, but simply played an inferior way and fielded inferior teams

2) Facing great teams doesn't prevent you from having great teams yourself that can compete evenly (like Bird's Celtics vs. Magic Lakers).. But Lebron ceded the best teams of his era to the Warriors and Spurs, who he is 2-5 against

3) Lebron was compensated for facing good Finals teams by getting a bunch of extra chances via a weak conference that allowed easy access to the Finals... Despite these extra chances, he only has 3 rings in 16 seasons

[Vino24]

Was MJ the best player in the league during his 17th season?

[3ball]

Was MJ the best player in the league during his 17th season?
MJ was the best player from 91-93' and 96-98' with 6 rings

Lebron was the best player from 12-16' with 3 rings, although I don't think he was the best player in 14'

LOL at the idea that he's the best player now, or even the last few years when he's been a one-way player.. :facepalm

We can argue that both guys were the best player BEFORE they won rings, like MJ from 88-90 or Lebron from 09-11', but I think there's a lot of problems with making that argument, so I just stick with when each guy started winning rings