Switching defenses or the emphasis on 3s. Which hurt bigmen more?

[Kblaze8855]

We always talk about the 3>2 model making coaches not want post play but the biggest criticism most traditional bigs get today is not being able to move their feet on D. Most of them...it isnt their fault. Its not a question of effort. Its just being too big to keep up with the guards. Its common senbse. Yet we watch coaches just allow the switch over and over and over. How many times must we see:







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before someone wises up?






It didnt used to be that way. You had guards with handles like always...but you didnt often see bigs switch out. You saw guards fight through the screen to prevent it. Now we see those soft ass handoffs like Lebron keps doing in the finals vs KD. You just let the other team decides who guards who?


Not to say it never happened 15-20 years ago and earlier...but when it did?








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The question we all asked was "How did they let that happen?"?






It happens so often now its not even a highlight seeing a big get spun around and abused. Its too common.


Even the great defenders who work hard on that end have it happen all the time. Rudy Gobert has been abused too many times to count in situations he was trying to move his feet in ways 7 footers arent really designed:










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And what I have to ask......what do coaches see to suggest to them that this is the way to play defense?

When you have a crazy defensive lineup...sure. But not everyone has that.

The Hawks with Mike Woodson were on this switch everything shit with those lineups of players all 6'5'' to 6'8''' at times.

Its one reason you have people saying things like you have to play defense with skill now.....but often its playing defense like a moron.

John Starks would never just switch off and let Patrick Ewing guard Tim Hardaway. He would fight through the screen. Kenny Smith might hand off a guard to Hakeem....but hakeem was Hakeem. Any time you watch basketball...from any era....theres a chance of a bad switch.

Im sure if we looked hard enough we could find Moses Malone trying to guard Isiah Thomas once.

But that shit is 15 times a game now. Is the era of just fighting over the screen over?



Kirk knows Boozer cant play defense....coach knows....so why leave him out to dry? You dont. You:








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What are coaches seeing to make them decide that its better to leave bigmen on an island vs the likes of Steph, Harden, Paul, Lillard, and so on?

What good could come of it? You dont go under the screen because guys shoot too well these days. One of you tell me why guys outside the Beverleys, Tony Allens, and Kirk Hinrichs dont seem to go over them since the late 2000s?




They are just serving these bigmens ankles up on a platter. John Starks has to be rolling over in his grave watching these soft ass handoffs.

[Kblaze8855]

Really you watch games and they will allow already godly talent like KD to just choose who they have to score on. Like...want Korver? No problem.









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Want to isolate Kevin Love? Bet. We will allow your man to switch onto Iggy who we know wont get the ball.


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Key play? Against our set D? We pick who we want guarding him? Sure. But he wants Hood. So switch for him.....

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I dont know. I just feel like Gary Payton, Mookie Blaylock, Alvin Robertson, John Starks, Lindsey Hunter, and Muggy are somewhere outraged watching the ease with which they let modern stars pick and choose their defender.


Bad defense has always existed.....but it shouldnt be that easy to literally select your defender and thats almost all that happens now. They will LET you just choose to exchange their top defender for the worst and watch you destroy him.


There is nothing to convince me thats how defense needs to be played. The guys willing to fight through screens are SO disruptive....I cant for the life of me figure out why coaches dont cultivate that style.

[r0drig0lac]

the "emphasis on 3s" comes from the fact that defense inside is allowed more aggressively than in the perimeter, if all pivots had the "benefit" Joel has (in fact I think it should be the standard on how referees should whistle for the bigmens), working inside, would be more valuable to teams.

[NBAGOAT]

going over screens will open up things too unfortunately. Lot of drives to the basket if the big doesnt help and if he does lobs at the rim. if they play 3v2 defense open corner 3's. The 3 and switching defenses are connected. No defense worries about someone shooting a baseline 2 but they do have to care about even pj tucker taking a corner 3. most of these early plays are defenders fighting over and it's just too easy for harden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bulJLOUoGG0

switching is the easiest way to deal with a screen and try to play bigs who can. Add on even though there are embarrassing plays, an isolation is still not the easiest way to score for anyone.

I do kind of like drop coverage. You drop your big by the rim. You will concede some 3's however, need a great active defensive guard like bledsoe to constantly fight over screen. it can be exploited hard too by stars, looks a little ridiculous honestly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teLNFPjznrc

[Kblaze8855]

Well yes there is no guaranteed way to defend the screen game which is why people have been doing it for so long. Go over go under or switch it can be taken advantage of. But the lack luster way teams just allow great offensive players to choose who they get to attack on a regular basis is amazing to me.

[NBAGOAT]

well i'll just respond to some your gifs then. for one of first ones a better player finds a lob at the rim and for one of 2nd ones leaving the big open for 3 could be bad. It's why as bad as boston was this year, kyrie/horford was such an effective duo. Defenses obviously dont like switching on to kyrie but that leaves so many open jumpers for horford. third one is great help defense tbf, classic thibs. lot of these gifs also have poor spacing relative to 2019 however

I'll also add only a handful of guys really kill you in isolation and if you do have a lineup with say draymond or horford or even gasol at center, switching everything can work pretty well. The jazz and bucks dont do it nearly as much, they dont have the mobile centers but sometimes you still have to. You cant concede in rhythm midrange pull ups to kd or kawhi.

[Xiao Yao You]

well i'll just respond to some your gifs then. for one of first ones a better player finds a lob at the rim and for one of 2nd ones leaving the big open for 3 could be bad. It's why as bad as boston was this year, kyrie/horford was such an effective duo. Defenses obviously dont like switching on to kyrie but that leaves so many open jumpers for horford. third one is great help defense tbf, classic thibs. lot of these gifs also have poor spacing relative to 2019 however

I'll also add only a handful of guys really kill you in isolation and if you do have a lineup with say draymond or horford or even gasol at center, switching everything can work pretty well. The jazz and bucks dont do it nearly as much, they dont have the mobile centers but sometimes you still have to. You cant concede in rhythm midrange pull ups to kd or kawhi.

The two time DPOY isn't mobile? :eek:

[NBAGOAT]

The two time DPOY isn't mobile? :eek:

well i shouldnt have lumped him in with lopez but no compared to draymond or horford

[Prometheus]

I don't know the game in as much depth as you do, but is fighting over with a hedge not much more susceptible to the pick and pop? And if so, could it be that too many screeners are also good 3p shooters these days?

[Kblaze8855]

Thing is they play it about the same no matter who sets it. You don’t even have to set a legit screen to get the switch.

I remember listening to Mark Jackson being disgusted Lebron kept letting loose “screens” by Iggy excuse him making switches to weaken their defense.

No concern of Iggy shooting but it’s a good excuse not to stick to a tough cover.

[Overdrive]

I don't know the game in as much depth as you do, but is fighting over with a hedge not much more susceptible to the pick and pop? And if so, could it be that too many screeners are also good 3p shooters these days?

This is the biggest problem, usually when you switched the big on the ball handler you just bought time to get the defender back, but today the guard has to stay on the popping big, because he could hit a 3. Also some lazy bums stay on the big to conserve energy.

[Prometheus]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Thing is they play it about the same no matter who sets it. You don

[andgar923]

The 3 ball opened up the game.

Even if players fight over screens the lanes is so open that it kinda doesn't matter as there's a wide open lane. The defense is at the offensive player's mercy more today than any other era due to the rules and open floor.

Spacing kills

Less physicality kills

Lane violation kills

You can see how team's offence crumbles today when the offence is off rhythm and the spacing isn't there. When the game becomes crowded they're at an utter loss of what to do, it happens time and time again. We saw it in the Finals this year. Whenever the Warriors (one of the best passing and cutting teams this era mind you) couldn't space out the floor they were in shambles specially Curry. It allowed bigs to switch, it allowed players to get to their man better.

But as soon as the floor opened up and they got on their sets, Curry was picking who he wanted to abuse.

There's still moments when there's a tiny bit of contact and the game becomes a mid court (old school) game. And in that brief moment teams just crumble if the lane isn't open and they can't dribble 20 times.

So I think the 3 is the reason why bigs are left on an island vs little dudes.

[Kblaze8855]

This is the biggest problem, usually when you switched the big on the ball handler you just bought time to get the defender back, but today the guard has to stay on the popping big, because he could hit a 3. Also some lazy bums stay on the big to conserve energy.



Dudes will switch onto Andre Drummond and follow him even if he doesn

[Kblaze8855]

Actually, I have wondered if players like LeBron do this specifically because of advanced player tracking stats.

If LeBron switches, and KD scores, that does not work toward LeBron's stats for him as the primary defender.

I wouldn't put it past him to do that.


I don

[Prometheus]

Generally I feel you. Maybe it's bullshit, but for some reason I feel like bron would be that one guy who actually does care about those advanced stats. He's so meticulous in trying to craft his narrative as GOAT. idk

[Overdrive]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Dudes will switch onto Andre Drummond and follow him even if he doesn

[FKAri]

switching imo. #3 would be the rule changes which killed the post game.

[Kblaze8855]

As said some players stick to guys like Drummond after a pop, because it saves them effort. Guys like Booker, Harden etc.

But the 3pt/perimeter shooting bigs are a big reason switching without switching back is so popular. So to answer your OP, both.

You rather let Lowry drive on a center than give Gasol the open look when the guard leaves him to get infront of Lowry.

Most teams just don't adjust from game to game basis in the regular season. They play Gasol/Lowry like they play Capela/Paul.



I agree with essentially all of this.

Especially the end.

It feels like.....NBA coaching should be better than that right?

You know they know the game....at least better than fans. Maybe its complacency. Good teams know they are gonna beat bad teams even if their defense is predictable because their own offense is too great.

I hope to see the Clippers play this year on both ends like it matters. Its hard to do that for full seasons and not be worn out come playoffs...but they have some of the guys who have shown it. Patrick Beverly attacks you at 70 feet from the basket in the preseason. Guys who give that effort cover up for a lot of tactical concerns.

[GOBB]

The switch everything trend is just utterly bad basketball imo. Sixers switch everything and it

[Kblaze8855]

You hit on my main problem....which really goes for many parts of the game these days....

Teams insist on sticking to one plan even when they dont have the personnel or talent to play it well.

Switch everything works if your lineup is built for it.

But teams will do it....and just watch a guy get slaughtered. Over and over and over. Be down 18....still switch and have Kemba Walker on Durant and just watch him go to work.

And its so built in they dont change it much based on the defenders or the talent of the offense. You would figure teams would double off non shooters more than they do. But teams are so used to defending the 3....they defend people who dont require it. Like....is KD really gonna pick and pop out to Iggy? Iggy is gonna be the guy they plan to kick it out to when Steph and Klay are also on the floor? Of course not. And if they do....**** it. You so worried about that Iggy elbow 3 you just watch Kevin Durant slaughter Korver or Love instead of having Lebron not hand him off?

The matchup legit doesnt matter at times. They are so used to switching they will leave a 2 guard on a 270 pound center and just stand there like the PPS isnt higher than normal in that situation. I get it....3>2....but not when the 2 is virtually unstoppable.

Teams barely adjust in game. They adjust over the course of an entire series when well coached....but in game?

Its like coaches leave their game plans on auto pilot the whole year sometimes.

[GOBB]

Big facts.

[sdot_thadon]

You hit on my main problem....which really goes for many parts of the game these days....

Teams insist on sticking to one plan even when they dont have the personnel or talent to play it well.

Switch everything works if your lineup is built for it.

But teams will do it....and just watch a guy get slaughtered. Over and over and over. Be down 18....still switch and have Kemba Walker on Durant and just watch him go to work.

And its so built in they dont change it much based on the defenders or the talent of the offense. You would figure teams would double off non shooters more than they do. But teams are so used to defending the 3....they defend people who dont require it. Like....is KD really gonna pick and pop out to Iggy? Iggy is gonna be the guy they plan to kick it out to when Steph and Klay are also on the floor? Of course not. And if they do....**** it. You so worried about that Iggy elbow 3 you just watch Kevin Durant slaughter Korver or Love instead of having Lebron not hand him off?

The matchup legit doesnt matter at times. They are so used to switching they will leave a 2 guard on a 270 pound center and just stand there like the PPS isnt higher than normal in that situation. I get it....3>2....but not when the 2 is virtually unstoppable.

Teams barely adjust in game. They adjust over the course of an entire series when well coached....but in game?

Its like coaches leave their game plans on auto pilot the whole year sometimes.
To the 1st post. I don't feel like one did more damage than the other because they are both end results of other rule changes specifically zone concepts on defense. Imo that eliminated the big man as we knew them. They were given much less space to operate and then analytics stepped in to further the case.

Sometimes i wonder why a team hasn't surrounded an elite big with the shooting they try to give elite perimeter playmakers now and see how it pans out. Because the real change is just room to operate. Maybe kids don't practice the postgame as much now because it simply isn't a ticket to the league any longer.

About the quoted post i absolutely agree. It's not just in reference to defense but both sides of the ball. One of the things we hear the most is blanks team can't function without him on the floor. Why the hell not? Aren't these coaches and players given millions to play this game and can't even work out a suitable plan b for when you 1st option can't go? Or when your switching scheme is getting roasted by a Kd or a Harden? In some cases it also feels like the modern players didn't do the work to know their personnel? It's crazy the fans know not to switch on Drummond at the 3 point line yet the players and coaches do it often. Sometimes watching games is sorta like watching a horror movie and yelling at the screen because you already see what's coming immediately after a certain choice gets made.

[Phoenix]

To the 1st post. I don't feel like one did more damage than the other because they are both end results of other rule changes specifically zone concepts on defense. Imo that eliminated the big man as we knew them. They were given much less space to operate and then analytics stepped in to further the case.

Sometimes i wonder why a team hasn't surrounded an elite big with the shooting they try to give elite perimeter playmakers now and see how it pans out. Because the real change is just room to operate. Maybe kids don't practice the postgame as much now because it simply isn't a ticket to the league any longer.

About the quoted post i absolutely agree. It's not just in reference to defense but both sides of the ball. One of the things we hear the most is blanks team can't function without him on the floor. Why the hell not? Aren't these coaches and players given millions to play this game and can't even work out a suitable plan b for when you 1st option can't go? Or when your switching scheme is getting roasted by a Kd or a Harden? In some cases it also feels like the modern players didn't do the work to know their personnel? It's crazy the fans know not to switch on Drummond at the 3 point line yet the players and coaches do it often. Sometimes watching games is sorta like watching a horror movie and yelling at the screen because you already see what's coming immediately after a certain choice gets made.

Really it speaks to how 'fragile' these offenses are. I mean yeah, take away any teams best player and they're going to be adversely impacted, but look at how mediocre Golden State's offense looks without Steph, even when Durant is there. Hell, look at how relatively mediocre it looked when the Raptors employed a box and 1 in the finals. They're very...conditional offenses?...for lack of a better term. I'd even go as far as to say conditional offensive players. Take their space away and they barely resemble the same player.

[sdot_thadon]

Really it speaks to how 'fragile' these offenses are. I mean yeah, take away any teams best player and they're going to be adversely impacted, but look at how mediocre Golden State's offense looks without Steph, even when Durant is there. Hell, look at how relatively mediocre it looked when the Raptors employed a box and 1 in the finals. They're very...conditional offenses?...for lack of a better term. I'd even go as far as to say conditional offensive players. Take their space away and they barely resemble the same player.
Right so I can understand tilting everything towards your best guy. But wouldn't it make sense to also have backup schemes for high leverage moments. Teams now are screwed if their best player gets into foul trouble etc. I would even go as far as devoting an assistant to that idea.

I wonder how often not switching on pnr leads to the made shot that teams seem terrified of even letting it happen a few times a game.

[Phoenix]

Right so I can understand tilting everything towards your best guy. But wouldn't it make sense to also have backup schemes for high leverage moments. Teams now are screwed if their best player gets into foul trouble etc. I would even go as far as devoting an assistant to that idea.

I wonder how often not switching on pnr leads to the made shot that teams seem terrified of even letting it happen a few times a game.

Yes we're in agreement. It speaks to the coaching. Maybe this is a broad statement but I feel like yesteryear's coaches had to coach with contingencies in place, or to handle a greater variety of situations. That's why I admire Gregg Popovich. Look how successful that franchise has been over 20 years under him, with the roster turnovers, rebuilding on the fly, never burning out their star players and the team remaining competitive even if a key player is out. THAT'S a system.

[Kblaze8855]

I was watching a Wizards game a while back and was reminded of this. We have team giving up 140 just letting guys pick on the Isiah Thomas types and I cannot wrap my head around it.

[Stephonit]

Blame the Warriors.

[ArbitraryWater]

Those were the best GIF's you couod find for Boozer being exposed on D?

[Airupthere]

I think less physicality and no hand checking opened up the game and that led to the imbalance for the bigs.

In terms of good handles, the guards have had them early on with the likes of tim hardaway, van exel, etc. but i think in the late 90s early 2000s, the nba allowing a little bit of street ball handles (ie, kobe, ai, jamal crawford, steve francis type of dribbling) made it more difficult for defenders to defend.

Then letting go of handchecking in 2004 ultimately made wings realize that since they can drive freely now or take jump shots without getting put a hand on, they can focus on their shots better. Less fatigue on your shots when you are not fighting physically to get to a better position for a shot allows for you to be a better shooter.

[DMAVS41]

Well yes there is no guaranteed way to defend the screen game which is why people have been doing it for so long. Go over go under or switch it can be taken advantage of. But the lack luster way teams just allow great offensive players to choose who they get to attack on a regular basis is amazing to me.

I agree, but with the best teams...what are you really supposed to do?

You can't stop a great player with single coverage most of the time unless you have multiple great wing defenders so they can't switch hunt as easily.

And if you shade or even double...it usually ends up in a dunk or open 3...and open 3's are just too good of shots to consistently give up.

I like the Spo/Carlisle approach the best. They switch it up throughout the game...they go zone quite a bit...play different coverage on the screens...etc.

But I do think teams should force the ball out of the hands of great players more often...at least for stretches. Like, make PJ Tucker score 40 one night...see if he really can hit 10 threes or something. I don't know the answer, but experimenting seems worth it when you know KD/Harden...etc...are going to torch guys on the switch if you let them go.

[PP34Deuce]

It;s not switching. It's def the emphasis on 3's.

Sheed, KG, Tim Thomas, Kenyon martin, Sam Dalembert, all were able to switch defensively and stay on smaller guys. Webber before the injuries could do it decent too.

today's league puts emphasis on hitting that 3 and that's where it's taken big guys from playing big and drawing fouls.

Pat Garrity was a sharp shooting big on the magic in 2001. He'd probably be more valued in today's game than he was before.

[Jasper]

Kblaze is right why do coaches consistently allow it to happen...

It is based on percentages ... most franchises are playing exactly that way , and my Bucks are good example.

Most plays when the Bucks play and switch out / the defense has failed so the big, hopes to protect a drive and allow a shot , hopefully not a 3.

It looks real bad when a big gets to far out and the offensive player decides to take to the floor and make the big look bad and slow on a drive.

Ideally guys like Bron when young / Wade and now Giannis try to block a shot from behind... it's the only option / but 2 isn't as good as a 3...
and the final score is the difference and the Bucks know that for sure.

Bucks for example are so good they do not mind if they trail in the first qtr by 8-12 points...
Their defense gets tighter , and paint gets clogged and it becomes a nightmare for opposing teams to get back into the game by the 4th qtr...
Bucks typically don't switch much in a lead game.

[Im so nba'd out]

OP most people are lazy or dont have the skill to get over screens/avoid them


Hell now that i think of it, maybe its just they cant physically do it.The pace is as fast as its ever been(maybe the 80's were faster? idk).What would a coach look like telling Luka, Harden, or Curry "hey get over that screen" when the other team's big, keeps coming back to set the screen 10 times from 4 different angles.....no one in the world has enough energy to do that + produce on offense @ today's pace

I'm not even going to get into how these guards are way more skilled than the 90's point guards(no im not a my day is better than your day type of guy.Im just stating true facts).Just watch a Spencer Dinwiddie....Just watch how he freaks the *** out of PnR defense when you "fight through the screen"


+ its only a handful of ppl in the league even good @ getting through screens Klay,Jrue, ect (not naming them all).Spencer basically gets whatever shot he wants and you just have to pray he misses....That not defense, praying that someone misses a wide-open leaning mid-range



Idk how long its gonna take these NBA coaches to realize zone is the next evolution of basketball.....In 20 years they wont even take us serious because they will say "people barely even ran zone in the early 2000s, no wonder they let 1 guard dominate the ball and put up those stats"

They will look at us the same way we look @ mikan.Nobody is gonna respect today's stats in the future.....this league is a joke right now.Nick Nurse is by far the most intelligent coach in the whole league basketball-wise.

Pop doesnt gaf about basketball since his wife/love of his life died.It is what it is.Yeah i said it

[Kblaze8855]

I'm not even going to get into how these guards are way more skilled than the 90's point guards(no im not a my day is better than your day type of guy.Im just stating true facts).Just watch a Spencer Dinwiddie....Just watch how he freaks the *** out of PnR defense when you "fight through the screen"


+ its only a handful of ppl in the league even good @ getting through screens Klay,Jrue, ect (not naming them all).Spencer basically gets whatever shot he wants and you just have to pray he misses....That not defense, praying that someone misses a wide-open leaning mid-range


But heres the thing....

He shoots a bit under 44% and 30% from 3.

The praying appears to be working. That isnt to say hes not skilled or isnt a really good player. He is. But when you say hes shredding teams? Hes shooting 29% from 3 in his hot December. Hes clearly doing his thing in other ways but I dont know if hes the best example of having too much skill to keep in check when you go under or fight through.

Hes obviously a really good scorer its just hard to say how good. The times make it hard to keep people in check. You couldnt keep Rod Strickland in check today with these rules and defensive approach and he couldnt shoot an elephant with a sniper rifle from across the room.

Players are skilled...they have always been skilled. And on average defensive effort is higher than it was 30 years ago ill say. Effort is up but the approach just concedes bad matchups which makes up for it.

['Toine=MVP]

I am lazy and didn't watch all those clips closely, but a big complaint about modern nba reffing/rule enforcement is that you can't fright through screens the way you could in the past. Even if those clips aren't showing that, it can have a ripple down effect.