Without trolling, can anyone refute this thesis intro on why Lebron isn't top 10?

[3ball]

Lebron can ONLY win with established vets because his style of turning teammates into spot-up shooters doesn't develop players or teamwork.

So the Nash/CP3/Lebron skillset is flawed because it's poor for player and team development, which is why it mostly loses to the Spurs and Warriors' organic brand of ball-movement.

This ball movement brand is the tried-and-true best way to maximize a team, but it requires players to incorporate a different skillset.. The star must frequently not touch the ball, while teammates move the ball and establish themselves as threats - only when the team needs a momentum boost or to break a momentary stalemate/lull does the star step in and assert their dominance..

Unfortunately, guys like Nash, CP3, and Lebron can't play this way because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)

Ultimately, Lebron's skillset is CP3/Nash caliber (ball-dominant), which isn't capable of winning a ring, at least not without the extra talent/colluding to compensate for the weaker teamwork inherent in this style of play, and also established stars rather than unestablished players that the ball-dominant skillset can't develop

[Vino24]

73 win team. Down 3-1. Led everyone in everything. If MJ had it in him to beat the 80s Celtics/pistons it would look something like that

[StrongLurk]

OP has Wilt Chamberlain number 2 all time...nuff said.

[superduper]

73 win team. Down 3-1. Led everyone in everything. If MJ had it in him to beat the 80s Celtics/pistons it would look something like that

Who on MJs team got 27ppg and the CHAMPIONSHIP WINNING shot?

[Vino24]

Who on MJs team got 27ppg and the CHAMPIONSHIP WINNING shot?
He had nearly 3 other players capable of 20ppg

[superduper]

He had nearly 3 other players capable of 20ppg

If 20ppg = 27ppg now then I guess Kevin Martin = Tracy McGrady

[bigkingsfan]

You are proof on why he is.

[sdot_thadon]

Says without trolling on a topic stating Lebron isn't top 10.:facepalm

[superduper]

Almost an hour and not a single refute so far

[sdot_thadon]

Almost an hour and not a single refute so far
Don't worry Op, someone will eventually get bored enough for more than a one line reply.

[bullettooth]

73 win team. Down 3-1. Led everyone in everything. If MJ had it in him to beat the 80s Celtics/pistons it would look something like that

MJ didn't have two other all-stars on his team back then. LeBald's career is one big shortcut.

[Leviathon1121]

Oh good, another LeBron topic.

[Hey Yo]

Lebron can ONLY win with established vets because his style of turning teammates into spot-up shooters doesn't develop players or teamwork.

So the Nash/CP3/Lebron skillset is flawed because it's poor for player and team development, which is why it mostly loses to the Spurs and Warriors' organic brand of ball-movement.

This ball movement brand is the tried-and-true best way to maximize a team, but it requires players to incorporate a different skillset.. The star must frequently not touch the ball, while teammates move the ball and establish themselves as threats - only when the team needs a momentum boost or to break a momentary stalemate/lull does the star step in and assert their dominance..

Unfortunately, guys like Nash, CP3, and Lebron can't play this way because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)

Ultimately, Lebron's skillset is CP3/Nash caliber (ball-dominant), which isn't capable of winning a ring, at least not without the extra talent/colluding to compensate for the weaker teamwork inherent in this style of play, and also established stars rather than unestablished players that the ball-dominant skillset can't develop
Both Irving and Love were Finals virgins in 2016.


:oldlol: too easy......

[bullettooth]

Both Irving and Love were Finals virgins in 2016.


:oldlol: too easy......

Took LeBron three tries + collusion to win in the finals.

MJ did it on his first try.

[superduper]

Took LeBron three tries + collusion to win in the finals.

MJ did it on his first try.

Lol the way Bran stans talk about other players being finals/ring virgins is so deluded I don't even know if I should laugh. It literally took super collusions like never before seen in history for Bran to even be remotely relevant. Absolutely hilarious how the entire world has forgotten.

[Hey Yo]

Took LeBron three tries + collusion to win in the finals.

MJ did it on his first try.
Yet that has nothing to do with what I said.

:oldlol: too stupid

[72-10]

duh stats are too sick brah, combined with era

[Vino24]

LeBron was able to elevate Kyrie from a lottery scrub to a competent 2nd option to beat a 73 win team. Despite having better overall casts why wasn

[72-10]

LeBron was able to elevate Kyrie from a lottery scrub to a competent 2nd option to beat a 73 win team. Despite having better overall casts why wasn’t MJ able to do the same against 80s Celtics/ pistons ?

It is absurd to suggest that MJ had better teammates before 93 than LeBron did in 2016. Kyrie played like a FMVP in the chip series.

[Vino24]

It is absurd to suggest that MJ had better teammates before 93 than LeBron did in 2016. Kyrie played like a FMVP in the chip series.
LeBron elevated him. We have seen peak Kyrie (2nd round exit at best)

[stalkerforlife]

Nope.

[ImKobe]

73 win team. Down 3-1. Led everyone in everything. If MJ had it in him to beat the 80s Celtics/pistons it would look something like that

73 win team that suffers injuries to their starting C(Bogut) and 2015 FMVP(Iggy), also has the 2016 FMVP at the time (Draymond would have won in 5) suspended for a crucial close-out game at home to give the Cavs a good chance to push the series to 7 games...


All things considered, Lebron's only legitimate title came in a lockout season against a bunch of kids who had never accomplished anything at that point, what a legacy.

[bigkingsfan]

73 win team that suffers injuries to their starting C(Bogut) and 2015 FMVP(Iggy), also has the 2016 FMVP at the time (Draymond would have won in 5) suspended for a crucial close-out game at home to give the Cavs a good chance to push the series to 7 games...


All things considered, Lebron's only legitimate title came in a lockout season against a bunch of kids who had never accomplished anything at that point, what a legacy.
You after 2016.

"Lebron is #2 all time"

[DaHeezy]

Without trolling, can OP make a thread on here?

[ImKobe]

You after 2016.

"Lebron is #2 all time"

I'd never say such a thing. Blasphemy.

[egokiller]

73 win team. Down 3-1. Led everyone in everything. If MJ had it in him to beat the 80s Celtics/pistons it would look something like that

He said no trolling. That means not propping up the accolades of someone who lead in 5 categories simply because the other team had 3 key injuries and a suspension. Literally any top 10 player in lebron's position could have led in 5 categories against that hobbled 2016 GSW team. It's not impressive at all. Try again.

[SouBeachTalents]

He said no trolling. That means not propping up the accolades of someone who lead in 5 categories simply because the other team had 3 key injuries and a suspension. Literally any top 10 player in lebron's position could have led in 5 categories against that hobbled 2016 GSW team. It's not impressive at all. Try again.
Then how come it's literally never happened before or after, even when they were going up against 8 seeds :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Kobe literally took the ball out of Steve Nash’s hands and made him a spot up shooter but he wasn’t ball dominant. K.

[egokiller]

Then how come it's literally never happened before or after, even when they were going up against 8 seeds :oldlol:

When has there been a 73 win team with 3 key injuries and a suspension?

[SouBeachTalents]

When has there been a 73 win team with 3 key injuries and a suspension?
Still better than 8 seeds. Why has no other player done it before or since? You look pretty foolish trying to knock something that's literally only happened once in the history of the league

[sdot_thadon]

Here's the truth. What player in the alltime top 10 won without good or veteran help? I'll throw some names out that are at least arguable top 10 ever.

Bird- won his 1st with a hof pg and Parish was an allstar that year. Mchale would become one he also would get a former mvp and a finals mvp as teammates eventually.

Magic- won his 1st with a fellow top 10 alltime great and guys like Wilkes and even added a former Mvp McAdoo at some point.

Kareem- same as above but add a guy who was once seen as the goat in Oscar Robertson.

Oscar Robertson- won his only chip with the guy above.

Bill Russell- began his career with a superstar and has probably had the most hall of fame teammates of anyone ever.

Wilt- won both of his chips on deep talented teams. The later was the 1st big 3 ever and didnt win the chip until Baylor called it quits.

Kobe- Had another top 10 guy as his lead dog. Then had an allstar veteran sidekick the 2nd go round amongst other vets.

Dirk- had a team full of vets.

Duncan- had an alltime great bigman coming in and has almost always had veteran teams some how.

Shaq- Had a top 10 guy as a 2nd option. Had some of the best wings of his era, along with plenty of veterans.

Hakeem- didn't have great talent but he had steady handed vets among his teammates.

Mike- The 2nd 3peat team was full of vets. The 1st 3peat team had a mixture of vets and youth. And don't forget, Scottie was already an established allstar before they won anything. Mike had perhaps the goat complimentary player to ever live.

So if your Op thesis is to hold any water I suppose that means we throw all the guys i mentioned out with Lebron and maybe we can make a new top 10 of guys no one knows right?


edit** also it's amazing what living in the lotto for a few years after you enter the league does for so-called "player development"

[jbryan1984]

Personally, he is #2 on my all time list and I find it crazy to think anyone could have him anywhere but 1-5. Just based on his title in Cleveland alone put him over the top because its like a Cinderella story that I believe will be a movie one day. Kid from NE Ohio gets drafted to his home team, leaves on the most controversial terms, comes back and beats the best team in NBA history. Not taking anything away from Kyrie's shot either, but obviously it would not of happened without him.

[TheBranStan]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/d8/1a/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

[bullettooth]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/d8/1a/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/Zn4pLWTT/stats.gif

[stalkerforlife]

Here's the truth. What player in the alltime top 10 won without good or veteran help? I'll throw some names out that are at least arguable top 10 ever.

Bird- won his 1st with a hof pg and Parish was an allstar that year. Mchale would become one he also would get a former mvp and a finals mvp as teammates eventually.

Magic- won his 1st with a fellow top 10 alltime great and guys like Wilkes and even added a former Mvp McAdoo at some point.

Kareem- same as above but add a guy who was once seen as the goat in Oscar Robertson.

Oscar Robertson- won his only chip with the guy above.

Bill Russell- began his career with a superstar and has probably had the most hall of fame teammates of anyone ever.

Wilt- won both of his chips on deep talented teams. The later was the 1st big 3 ever and didnt win the chip until Baylor called it quits.

Kobe- Had another top 10 guy as his lead dog. Then had an allstar veteran sidekick the 2nd go round amongst other vets.

Dirk- had a team full of vets.

Duncan- had an alltime great bigman coming in and has almost always had veteran teams some how.

Shaq- Had a top 10 guy as a 2nd option. Had some of the best wings of his era, along with plenty of veterans.

Hakeem- didn't have great talent but he had steady handed vets among his teammates.

Mike- The 2nd 3peat team was full of vets. The 1st 3peat team had a mixture of vets and youth. And don't forget, Scottie was already an established allstar before they won anything. Mike had perhaps the goat complimentary player to ever live.

So if your Op thesis is to hold any water I suppose that means we throw all the guys i mentioned out with Lebron and maybe we can make a new top 10 of guys no one knows right?


edit** also it's amazing what living in the lotto for a few years after you enter the league does for so-called "player development"

You could've saved a lot of time by saying "Every player needs 4 other guys on the court, but I have an agenda and I refuse to admit that my favorite player had more help and he got it by team hopping and collusion."

[sdot_thadon]

You could've saved a lot of time by saying "Every player needs 4 other guys on the court, but I have an agenda and I refuse to admit that my favorite player had more help and he got it by team hopping and collusion."
Or, instead of this dumpster worthy reply you could....i dunno tell me which players i mentioned had less help than Lebron and then help me throw the rest out of the top 10 with him because there wont be much left.

When we don't realize we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[CTbasketball92]

I just don't see how you can still talk yourself into thinking LeBron's not at least a top five player. Even his haters know he's at worst top 10.


LeBron is probably the greatest floor-riser ever, so even if he does stunt people's growth, it's worth it if they win 66 games like the cavs did in 2009. As far as ceilings go, though, DWade and Kyrie weren't inhibited by lebron, but when they were all together they were arguably All-Time great squads with their starting lineups.

Larry Bird and Magic played on utterly stacked teams and so did Kareem, and magic only won two more chips. Bird won the same amount. Thats three players you cant make an apples-to-apples comparison with.

Like then you have MJ...and sure, you can say he's better, but most impact metrics/stats place them at tied for No. 1. MJ never played with another great scorer so there was nothing to hinder. I'm sure his teammates would have hated him for taking 45 shots a game if he had a DWade/Kyrie on his team.

[egokiller]

I just don't see how you can still talk yourself into thinking LeBron's not at least a top five player. Even his haters know he's at worst top 10.


LeBron is probably the greatest floor-riser ever, so even if he does stunt people's growth, it's worth it if they win 66 games like the cavs did in 2009. As far as ceilings go, though, DWade and Kyrie weren't inhibited by lebron, but when they were all together they were arguably All-Time great squads with their starting lineups.

Larry Bird and Magic played on utterly stacked teams and so did Kareem, and magic only won two more chips. Bird won the same amount. Thats three players you cant make an apples-to-apples comparison with.

Like then you have MJ...and sure, you can say he's better, but most impact metrics/stats place them at tied for No. 1. MJ never played with another great scorer so there was nothing to hinder. I'm sure his teammates would have hated him for taking 45 shots a game if he had a DWade/Kyrie on his team.

The problem is that all the bullshit antics and drama pretty much move him out of the top 10 list and the only way to get him back in is to troll and pretend that all that shit doesn't exist and that this guy wasn't some stat padder that played in a weak conference. The same weak conference a guy from the west came to his first year with a new coach and got to the final also without guys like Love, Kyrie, Wade or Bosh. Just goes to show all those "appearances in a row in the east could have been done by any other top 5 player in the NBA at that time with a similar stacked team. KD out colluding him was the icing on the cake.

[Manny98]

It actually baffles me how OP has never been banned

He makes more LeBron bashing threads than SuperDuper and Pickernroller combined

But if you so much as criticise MJ = instant ban

[RealSkipBayless]

It actually baffles me how OP has never been banned

He makes more LeBron bashing threads than SuperDuper and Pickernroller combined

But if you so much as criticise MJ = instant ban
The KBald agenda. :eek:

[SouBeachTalents]

It actually baffles me how OP has never been banned

He makes more LeBron bashing threads than SuperDuper and Pickernroller combined

But if you so much as criticise MJ = instant ban
Dude's made hundreds of LeBron threads, literally hundreds. And he tries to play it off like LeBron ain't even top 10 :lol

[Kiddlovesnets]

This is going way too far, lebron is definitely top 10, though he

[ImKobe]

Kobe literally took the ball out of Steve Nash’s hands and made him a spot up shooter but he wasn’t ball dominant. K.

More like Nash had a career-altering injury his 2nd game with the Lakers and Kobe just became the facilitator for the team due to all the injuries and brought them back from like 8 games under .500 to having one of the best records in the league post-ASB (i believe 28-12 in their last 40 games) and Nash still averaged the same amount of points, just didn't dominate the ball in LA as much due to injuries and age slowing him down.

of course you would be retarded enough to bring up Steve Nash and not think about the effects of injury and him being 38-39 years old at that point.

[Elosha]

73 win team. Down 3-1. Led everyone in everything. If MJ had it in him to beat the 80s Celtics/pistons it would look something like that

Jordan's numbers against the 86 Celtics put LeBron's 2016 numbers (or any other numbers) to shame. The difference is that Jordan was playing with little talent, while LeBron had Kyrie to hit the vast majority of the big shots in 2016, while LeBron stood in the corner. LeBron had a great series no doubt, but he does nothing without Kyrie and probably also loses in 5 without the Green suspension.

[Elosha]

^ That being said, LBJ is clearly top 10. He's an ATG. I have him around 5-6. He could go higher or could go lower, depending on how his career plays out. He'll never be GOAT, but he could move up (or down) a spot or two.

[Wally450]

You are proof on why he is.

Exactly. 3ball doesn't make many threads that aren't about LeBron.

[Real14]

73 win team. Down 3-1. Led everyone in everything. If MJ had it in him to beat the 80s Celtics/pistons it would look something like that
Draymond was suspended plus Iggy and bogut was hurt. Also, Curry was fouled out on bullshit fouls for game 6.

[Vino24]

Draymond was suspended plus Iggy and bogut was hurt. Also, Curry was fouled out on bullshit fouls for game 6.
Love missed a game and was useless. JR Smith was the 3rd option

[bullettooth]

But if you so much as criticise MJ = instant ban

You still have an account....

[ILLsmak]

He's top ten but closer to ten than one.

He's not the highest tier but there aren't that many people in nba history who are Def better than Bron. Prol the big six for sure, then arguable. I mean you got like kobe, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan... Those dudes are great but that's about where Bron is. Subjective rankings. Dono why people try to put Bron over Magic or bird tho. Makes no sense.

It's not that Bron can only win w a certain team that is a strike against him cuz it's not hard to build that team. But he's got a lot of baggage and has quit on his team a lot. He's also unstable. He's not a choker anymore but he is capable of choking as much as he is of being clutch. Hell never be a stone cold gimme the ball n get out of the way dude. He will never have impacted bball as much as those six guys.

-Smak

[3ball]

He's top ten but closer to ten than one.

He's not the highest tier but there aren't that many people in nba history who are Def better than Bron. Prol the big six for sure, then arguable. I mean you got like kobe, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan... Those dudes are great but that's about where Bron is. Subjective rankings. Dono why people try to put Bron over Magic or bird tho. Makes no sense.

It's not that Bron can only win w a certain team that is a strike against him cuz it's not hard to build that team. But he's got a lot of baggage and has quit on his team a lot. He's also unstable. He's not a choker anymore but he is capable of choking as much as he is of being clutch. Hell never be a stone cold gimme the ball n get out of the way dude. He will never have impacted bball as much as those six guys.

-Smak


Lebron isn't easy to build around because he "needs shooters" too much

He's the only guy that's continuously talked about needing shooters all the time - it's because shooters are the only player type and role that plays well next to him (which is pathetic and a weakness), so he may as well have shooters at every position... :confusedshrug: ... but this constrains the level of team he can have, aka 3/9

Nonetheless, Lebron's handlers will make a GM think it's "easy" to build around him by colluding a big 3 in advance, so the GM only has to get "shooters".

But again, the "Lebron + shooters" template falls short of the best teams of the era - it's only 2-6 vs spurs/warriors/mavs, including 2 record defeats, 2 sweeps, and a goat choke.. So it's clearly a basic style that wins by having excessive supporting talent, not inexploitable teamwork.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Thesis Intro?

3Ball, why don't you talk to your local university and start up a class about this subject if it's so deep and important?

[egokiller]

Lebron isn't easy to build around because he "needs shooters" too much

He's the only guy that's continuously talked about needing shooters all the time - it's because shooters are the only player type and role that plays well next to him (which is pathetic and a weakness), so he may as well have shooters at every position... :confusedshrug: ... but this constrains the level of team he can have, aka 3/9

Nonetheless, Lebron's handlers will make a GM think it's "easy" to build around him by colluding a big 3 in advance, so the GM only has to get "shooters".

But again, the "Lebron + shooters" template falls short of the best teams of the era - it's only 2-6 vs spurs/warriors/mavs, including 2 record defeats, 2 sweeps, and a goat choke.. So it's clearly a basic style that wins by having excessive supporting talent, not inexploitable teamwork.

:applause:

Another one

[TheImmortal]

Lebron can ONLY win with established vets because his style of turning teammates into spot-up shooters doesn't develop players or teamwork.

So the Nash/CP3/Lebron skillset is flawed because it's poor for player and team development, which is why it mostly loses to the Spurs and Warriors' organic brand of ball-movement.

This ball movement brand is the tried-and-true best way to maximize a team, but it requires players to incorporate a different skillset.. The star must frequently not touch the ball, while teammates move the ball and establish themselves as threats - only when the team needs a momentum boost or to break a momentary stalemate/lull does the star step in and assert their dominance..

Unfortunately, guys like Nash, CP3, and Lebron can't play this way because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)

Ultimately, Lebron's skillset is CP3/Nash caliber (ball-dominant), which isn't capable of winning a ring, at least not without the extra talent/colluding to compensate for the weaker teamwork inherent in this style of play, and also established stars rather than unestablished players that the ball-dominant skillset can't develop
Absolute and irrefutable truth. gg/

[superduper]

They are straight up threatened by 3ball's intelligence tbh

[Young X]

Lebron dropped b2b 40 point elimination games in the finals.

He won 4 MVP's in 5 seasons.

He dropped EIGHT 40 point games in the same postseason.

Only players like Jordan and Shaq can compare to his individual dominance.

[Vino24]

Thesis Intro?

3Ball, why don't you talk to your local university and start up a class about this subject if it's so deep and important?
Yikes 3ball would be out with plagiarism and no legit sources and fudging data :oldlol:

[Inferno]

Come on bro :oldlol:

He's top three all time at least

[ArbitraryWater]

Come on bro :oldlol:

He's top three all time at least

:bowdown:

[Inferno]

:bowdown:

What's crackin brah, I haven't been here in awhile

[tpols]

theres never been a dude that's been ranked above all those who consistently embarrassed his teams...

from duncan to kawhi to curry to durant to dirk all these guys are supposedly ranked below Lebron yet they each had his number and won against him way more than he did against them. this was all when he had super teams wade, kyrie, bosh love etc. not even getting into what he did on mediocre squads.. where he still lost to the likes of dwight & nobodies.

In a vacuum Bran's talent is GOAT, but intangibly (monopolization style + off court manipulation) hes so much worse than his peers, that they make up the difference and lap him.

thats the truth... but hes a media cash cow and they promote what they have to to make money.

[Manny98]

theres never been a dude that's been ranked above all those who consistently embarrassed his teams...

from duncan to kawhi to curry to durant to dirk all these guys are supposedly ranked below Lebron yet they each had his number and won against him way more than he did against them. this was all when he had super teams wade, kyrie, bosh love etc. not even getting into what he did on mediocre squads.. where he still lost to the likes of dwight & nobodies.

In a vacuum Bran's talent is GOAT, but intangibly (monopolization style + off court manipulation) hes so much worse than his peers, that they make up the difference and lap him.

thats the truth... but hes a media cash cow and they promote what they have to to make money.
Isiah Thomas has a 3-1 series record against Jordan & Bird owned Jordan everytime they played also Jordan had a losing record against Hakeem as well when they played in the regular season :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Isiah Thomas has a 3-1 series record against Jordan & Bird owned Jordan everytime they played also Jordan had a losing record against Hakeem as well when they played in the regular season :confusedshrug:


IT and bird both beat jordan when he was playing with scrub teams ala young lebron. Once he had competent help he dominated everybody...

All the guys i listed that punked bran did it after he formed super teams.

****ing dwayne wade a top 15-20 player of all time, 3 other all NBAers in their primes and he was getting punked.

sorry bro...

[SouBeachTalents]

theres never been a dude that's been ranked above all those who consistently embarrassed his teams...

from duncan to kawhi to curry to durant to dirk all these guys are supposedly ranked below Lebron yet they each had his number and won against him way more than he did against them. this was all when he had super teams wade, kyrie, bosh love etc. not even getting into what he did on mediocre squads.. where he still lost to the likes of dwight & nobodies.

In a vacuum Bran's talent is GOAT, but intangibly (monopolization style + off court manipulation) hes so much worse than his peers, that they make up the difference and lap him.

thats the truth... but hes a media cash cow and they promote what they have to to make money.
Won way more against him?

Duncan is 2-1
Kawhi is 1-1
Curry is 3-1
Durant is 2-1

You bring up super teams, yet it was Duncan/Kawhi & Curry/Durant paired up going against LeBron, with the likes of Parker/Manu & Klay/Dray as support

And which super teams are you referencing exactly. 2007? 2015? 2018?

The facts are, Curry/Durant are 2-0 against LeBron together, 1-2 against him solo, while Duncan beat him on the clearly superior team in '07, a series he didn't even win FMVP

2011 is obviously the humiliating defeat which would meet the criteria you described

That's not to mention you'd of course bring up losing to Dwight, but completely gloss over Duncan & Dirk losing to 8 seeds :lol

[Manny98]

IT and bird both beat jordan when he was playing with scrub teams ala young lebron. Once he had competent help he dominated everybody...

All the guys i listed that punked bran did it after he formed super teams.

****ing dwayne wade a top 15-20 player of all time, 3 other all NBAers in their primes and he was getting punked.

sorry bro...
So context only matters if it applies to Jordan :oldlol:

He lost in 2015 because Matthew f*cking Dellavadova was his second option :roll:

2017 & 2018 he was going up against a against a 70 win team that added the greatest scorer the league has ever seen. Replace LeBron with anyone and the Warriors are still winning

Duncan & LeBron are pretty much even since 2007 doesn't count because LeBron was a baby just like MJ was against Bird plus Hughes was hurt that series