Why did Jordan only make 6 finals in 13 playoff appearances?

[SpaceJam2]

Why

What changed?

[meat]

Because he lost the other times. Now you get lost with your lame troll game.

[ImKobe]

Why did Lebron only win 3 Finals in his first 13 Playoff appearances?

[FKAri]

He wasn't good enough to win more than he did.

[egokiller]

Why are those who had to settle for watching a 6 time finals loser like lebron jealous of those who had a more enjoyable basketball upbringing and got to watch MJ win 6?

Why so mad?

[72-10]

Perhaps he was insufficiently funded.

[Jay-B]

can't ask this question and question doesn't even make sense because once jordan won a title he NEVER lost again. Cant count 95 either or wizards

[LostCause]

Why did Jordan only win a championship 40% of his career? Good question

What's LeBron at nowadays. 18%?

I guess success isn't a good thing to compare between them given the disparity. Better make a thread about stats instead

[Leviathon1121]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1/all-nbarank-1
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=471024

[bullettooth]

Wasn't this exact thread made not long ago by one of Wheels' other accounts that ended up getting that account banned?

[superduper]

Chalk up another one for blaze's notepad :eek:

[Hey Yo]

can't ask this question and question doesn't even make sense because once jordan won a title he NEVER lost again. Cant count 95 either or wizards
:oldlol:

Aren't both those occurrences AFTER he won a title?

[72-10]

I thought about it some more. I think he kept running into the Celtics and Pistons in the post. I think that was his problem. Those two teams were loaded with talent while concurrently Jordan didn't have much in the way of talented players with whom to work.:banana:

By the way both of these teams had an all-world, all-time great defender to put on Jordan in Dennis Johnson and Joe Dumars, respectively.

[Manny98]

Why did Jordan only win a championship 40% of his career? Good question


Weak era & retired twice when the comp got good

[LostCause]

Weak era & retired twice when the comp got good

Yeah? Like who?

Also, 03-2011 was pretty weak. Why no chip for Bran?

[Duncan21formvp]

Why did Lebron win bronze medals twice?

[Duncan21formvp]

Why did Lebron lose with HCA to a career loser in Dwight Howard?

[Smoke117]

Why did Lebron lose with HCA to a career loser in Dwight Howard?

...I dunno...probably because he got much less help?

In that series LeBron had a massive 29.3 gamescore. Second in that series was Howard with a 22.9 as he was great. (which is ironic considering how this board wants to shit on hims now. They also seem to forget how dominant he was in this series when they bring him up and talk about him...he averaged 25.8ppg 13.0rpg 2.8apg 0.8spg 1.2bpg .651%fg .701%ft .689%ts) You can say whatever you want about Dwight in general, but he was absolutely dominant in this series. This is basically the series that made him a superstar at this time. Sports is a what have you done lately kind of memory so everyone acts like he was never anything, now, though. That is especially true of the pathaetic LeBron haters that just want to shit on him and act like everyone he ever faced was a scrub. :rolleyes:

Anyway, after those two the two highest game scores were Magic players Lewis posting a 13.3 and Turkoglu posting a 12.7. The next two would be Mo Williams and Delonte west with a 10.8 and 10.3. Let's put this into perspective, though. Both Rashard Lewis and Mo Williams averaged exactly 18.3ppg in this series. The difference? Rashard Lewis did it on .640%ts and on 71 shot attempts. Mo Williams? He averaged the same ppg on 97 shots with a .505%ts...yeah. Howard had much better teammates. The Cavs only ever won so many games because LeBron was just that dominant and carried a team like a David Robinson of his era. Sorry haters, but if you actually know anything about basketball that's just how it was. It shouldn't be a big thing that the, obviously, more talented Magic beat the Cavs despite LeBron completely dominating the series. This isn't tennis, fakkots.

[SouBeachTalents]

Why did Lebron lose with HCA to a career loser in Dwight Howard?
Why did Duncan lose with HCA to an 8 seed, to a franchise that had never even won a playoff game :oldlol:

[Leviathon1121]

That is especially true of the pathaetic LeBron haters that just want to shit on him and act like everyone he ever faced was a scrub.
So where have you been for the last year and the countless barrage of troll threads by LeBron stans? You guys have been shitting on Jordan

[Phoenix]

Wasn't this exact thread made not long ago by one of Wheels' other accounts that ended up getting that account banned?

Yep, part of the healing process for OP is all his alt accounts get their own farewell tour before committing seppuka.

[The Iron Fist]

...I dunno...probably because he got much less help?

In that series LeBron had a massive 29.3 gamescore. Second in that series was Howard with a 22.9 as he was great. (which is ironic considering how this board wants to shit on hims now. They also seem to forget how dominant he was in this series when they bring him up and talk about him...he averaged 25.8ppg 13.0rpg 2.8apg 0.8spg 1.2bpg .651%fg .701%ft .689%ts) You can say whatever you want about Dwight in general, but he was absolutely dominant in this series. This is basically the series that made him a superstar at this time. Sports is a what have you done lately kind of memory so everyone acts like he was never anything, now, though. That is especially true of the pathaetic LeBron haters that just want to shit on him and act like everyone he ever faced was a scrub. :rolleyes:

Anyway, after those two the two highest game scores were Magic players Lewis posting a 13.3 and Turkoglu posting a 12.7. The next two would be Mo Williams and Delonte west with a 10.8 and 10.3. Let's put this into perspective, though. Both Rashard Lewis and Mo Williams averaged exactly 18.3ppg in this series. The difference? Rashard Lewis did it on .640%ts and on 71 shot attempts. Mo Williams? He averaged the same ppg on 97 shots with a .505%ts...yeah. Howard had much better teammates. The Cavs only ever won so many games because LeBron was just that dominant and carried a team like a David Robinson of his era. Sorry haters, but if you actually know anything about basketball that's just how it was. It shouldn't be a big thing that the, obviously, more talented Magic beat the Cavs despite LeBron completely dominating the series. This isn't tennis, fakkots.
So lebron isnt good enough to make his teammates better. Thats all you had to say.

[NZStreetBaller]

The real question is how did jordan never lose a finals series i mean... no bad luck no nervpus choke on his first attempt no excuses nothing... and never had to shift teams in order to achieve this

[Manny98]

Yeah? Like who?

Also, 03-2011 was pretty weak. Why no chip for Bran?
Both of Jordans 3 peats came after expansion drafts that diluted the overall talent in the league

Bird said so himself that Jordan won in a weak era :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p57WjbKSoJ0

[SpaceJam]

Why did Lebron lose with HCA to a career loser in Dwight Howard?

That Magic team was juiced bro

[Elosha]

Why

What changed?

How can you and your alts keep doing this? Don't you get tired of your own stupid BS, recycled over and over again? Don't you have anything better to do with your time?

[Real14]

Kblaze come on man:coleman:

[LostCause]

Both of Jordans 3 peats came after expansion drafts that diluted the overall talent in the league

Bird said so himself that Jordan won in a weak era :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p57WjbKSoJ0

Expansion Drafts also took talent FROM Jordans teams, and I already smacked you upside the head debating expansion vs tanking teams today. Don't think you wanna open that again

Anyway, you said Jordan retired twice when the competition "got good". So who are you referring to specifically?

[superduper]

Expansion era vs the tanking era.

In one team are trying their hardest to win and to make a name for their franchise and team. In the other teams are trying their hardest to lose on purpose.

Which sounds like the weaker era to you?

[Manny98]

Expansion Drafts also took talent FROM Jordans teams, and I already smacked you upside the head debating expansion vs tanking teams today. Don't think you wanna open that again

Anyway, you said Jordan retired twice when the competition "got good". So who are you referring to specifically?
Tanking is a strategy retard, it doesn't effect the overall talent like the expansion drafts did

Just accept that your hero benefited from 2 expansion drafts in order to 3-peat

[superduper]

Tanking is a strategy retard, it doesn't effect the overall talent like the expansion drafts did

Just accept that your hero benefited from 2 expansion drafts in order to 3-peat

Whether it's expansion or tanking, either way they don't affect the teams at the top as much. So your point is moot in regards to this thread.

[LostCause]

Tanking is a strategy retard, it doesn't effect the overall talent like the expansion drafts did

Just accept that your hero benefited from 2 expansion drafts in order to 3-peat

How did Jordan benefit from expansion exactly? His team had to give up talent too. You guys like to cite BJ Armstrong making the All-Star team in 94 to show how much help he had. BJ was LOST to the expansion draft. So Jordan lost an all-star point guard! So what unfair advantage helped Jordan when every team had to do the same thing, moron?

Tanking does affect talent, dumbass. Example the Sixers were practically GIVING players away during the "process". You have loads of teams tanking and shipping out quality players just so that they can either increase their draft odds OR create cap space for a free agent class (See the Knicks). Additionally expansions only really target players who the team chooses not to protect, and given they can protect up to 8 those are players 9-12 usually. Using the NBA Champ Raptors as an example, assuming the team keeps their Top 8 players in minutes per game in the playoffs, the 9-12 selection would be: Eric Moreland, Jeremy Lin, Patrick McCaw and Jodie Meeks. Choose 1 of them and yeah, I'm sure the Raptors are suddenly a much worse team now lmao

I asked you twice what you meant about that other shit you said and youve now dodged it twice. I'll take that as you conceding you had no point, as you'll be doing here shortly again anyway

[PWB15]

Why did Lebron have to leave and join stars to win championships?

Why couldnt he be like Kobe and Kawhi??

[SpaceJam2]

So to recap

-couldn't win a playoff series without Scottie
-gets Scottie, wins rings against weak teams
-attempts to piggy back off Scottie in 95 to win a cheap ring but fails
-loses Scottie in his Washington days and never sniffs another Finals

What seems to be the constant in Jordan's success...


Anyone?

[Mr Feeny]

Of all the dumb threads on the front page, this takes the cake.

[LostCause]

So to recap

-couldn't win a playoff series without Scottie
-gets Scottie, wins rings against weak teams
-attempts to piggy back off Scottie in 95 to win a cheap ring but fails
-loses Scottie in his Washington days and never sniffs another Finals

What seems to be the constant in Jordan's success...


Anyone?

LeBron has now played for 3 different teams in his career, jumping ship once his "superteams" fall apart

All that movement, yet he's only won a championship for 18% of his career! Compared to Jordans winning it 40% of the time.

18%

Let that sink in
-If you shoot 50 jumpers, that's making 9 of them.
-If that were a team in an 82-game season, their record would be about 15-67. That winning percentage would place it in the Top 16 WORST in NBA history out of the THOUSANDS of Teams/Seasons available

Now imagine that if he doesn't win this season, it drops down to 17% :biggums:

Sheesh. Anyone? :confusedshrug:

[Manny98]

How did Jordan benefit from expansion exactly? His team had to give up talent too. You guys like to cite BJ Armstrong making the All-Star team in 94 to show how much help he had. BJ was LOST to the expansion draft. So Jordan lost an all-star point guard! So what unfair advantage helped Jordan when every team had to do the same thing, moron?

Tanking does affect talent, dumbass. Example the Sixers were practically GIVING players away during the "process". You have loads of teams tanking and shipping out quality players just so that they can either increase their draft odds OR create cap space for a free agent class (See the Knicks). Additionally expansions only really target players who the team chooses not to protect, and given they can protect up to 8 those are players 9-12 usually. Using the NBA Champ Raptors as an example, assuming the team keeps their Top 8 players in minutes per game in the playoffs, the 9-12 selection would be: Eric Moreland, Jeremy Lin, Patrick McCaw and Jodie Meeks. Choose 1 of them and yeah, I'm sure the Raptors are suddenly a much worse team now lmao

I asked you twice what you meant about that other shit you said and youve now dodged it twice. I'll take that as you conceding you had no point, as you'll be doing here shortly again anyway
He benefited because it weakened the competition

[305Baller]

retarded thread is retarded

[FromDowntown]

When he made it he won. End of discussion

[guy]

How did Jordan benefit from expansion exactly? His team had to give up talent too. You guys like to cite BJ Armstrong making the All-Star team in 94 to show how much help he had. BJ was LOST to the expansion draft. So Jordan lost an all-star point guard! So what unfair advantage helped Jordan when every team had to do the same thing, moron?

Tanking does affect talent, dumbass. Example the Sixers were practically GIVING players away during the "process". You have loads of teams tanking and shipping out quality players just so that they can either increase their draft odds OR create cap space for a free agent class (See the Knicks). Additionally expansions only really target players who the team chooses not to protect, and given they can protect up to 8 those are players 9-12 usually. Using the NBA Champ Raptors as an example, assuming the team keeps their Top 8 players in minutes per game in the playoffs, the 9-12 selection would be: Eric Moreland, Jeremy Lin, Patrick McCaw and Jodie Meeks. Choose 1 of them and yeah, I'm sure the Raptors are suddenly a much worse team now lmao

I asked you twice what you meant about that other shit you said and youve now dodged it twice. I'll take that as you conceding you had no point, as you'll be doing here shortly again anyway

The expansion arguments are so funny. If you actually look at some of the drafts in the late 80s after the expansion teams came in, if those teams didn

[Vragrant]

Ummm, isn't 6 Finals in 13 playoff appaarances pretty good?:oldlol:

[LostCause]

He benefited because it weakened the competition

His team lost an ALL-STAR PG though but sure let's just ignore that. Who else lost as much? :lol

Seriously. Were you even aware that expansion affects EVERY team? Every team was "weakened" dipshit. Answer my question though, if the Raptors of last season went through an expansion draft and lost either Eric Moreland, Jeremy Lin, Patrick McCaw or Jodie Meeks, they'd be "weakened competition" and easy pickings now right? Lmao

How much dumber do you wanna look here Manny? :hammerhead:

[Manny98]

His team lost an ALL-STAR PG though but sure let's just ignore that. Who else lost as much? :lol

Seriously. Were you even aware that expansion affects EVERY team? Every team was "weakened" dipshit. Answer my question though, if the Raptors of last season went through an expansion draft and lost either Eric Moreland, Jeremy Lin, Patrick McCaw or Jodie Meeks, they'd be "weakened competition" and easy pickings now right? Lmao

How much dumber do you wanna look here Manny? :hammerhead:
Poor MJ he only has 2 all star teammates now instead of 3 :cry:

Still had BY FAR the most stacked team in the league at the time :oldlol:

[superduper]

retarded thread is retarded

Welcome to OPs world, easily worst poster on ISH

[TheCorporation]

So to recap

-couldn't win a playoff series without Scottie
-gets Scottie, wins rings against weak teams
-attempts to piggy back off Scottie in 95 to win a cheap ring but fails
-loses Scottie in his Washington days and never sniffs another Finals

What seems to be the constant in Jordan's success...


Anyone?

No Pip, No Chip

1-9 before Scottie bailed him out, and then MJ went playoffless after Scottie left Chicago

I am surprised more people don't know this though...

[Bigsmoke]

85-90: Pistons and Celtics supporting casts were too much for MJ to beat them by himself.

95: The Bulls had a super lackluster interior presence that year to go up against Horace Grant and Shaq

[Phoenix]

Poor MJ he only has 2 all star teammates now instead of 3 :cry:

Still had BY FAR the most stacked team in the league at the time :oldlol:

You're an idiot. Orlando, Phoenix, New York, Seattle had better top to bottom rosters. Cleveland weren't a joke either. I'd argue the 98 Jazz were also more talented top to bottom, with MJ at the tailend of his prime and Scottie limping his way through game 6 with a fukked back. The 98 Pacers with Reggie, Smits, Jalen Rose, Mullin, Mark Jackson and Davis Boys? There's no talent deficit there.....at all.

Lostcause has already schooled you on the stupidity of the expansion argument. The expansions spread the talent around to where the 3 star formula that won the majority of 80s championships went to a 2 star system that lasted for 25 years until the current star collusion/ AAU superteams of the last decade. To say that Jordan benefitted from expansion is to act like the Bulls were isolated from it. Every other team in the league got weaker but someone his didn''t? You don't have a point, you're just sticking your fingers in your ears being a useless little troll. Go play in traffic.

[RealSkipBayless]

You're an idiot. Orlando, Phoenix, New York, Seattle had better top to bottom rosters. Cleveland weren't a joke either. I'd argue the 98 Jazz were also more talented top to bottom, with MJ at the tailend of his prime and Scottie limping his way through game 6 with a fukked back. The 98 Pacers with Reggie, Smits, Jalen Rose, Mullin, Mark Jackson and Davis Boys? There's no talent deficit there.....at all.

Lostcause has already schooled you on the stupidity of the expansion argument. The expansions spread the talent around to where the 3 star formula that won the majority of 80s championships went to a 2 star system that lasted for 25 years until the current star collusion/ AAU superteams of the last decade. To say that Jordan benefitted from expansion is to act like the Bulls were isolated from it. Every other team in the league got weaker but someone his didn''t? You don't have a point, you're just sticking your fingers in your ears being a useless little troll. Go play in traffic.
Another quality meltdown from this retard. :lol :lol

[Leviathon1121]

Another quality meltdown from this retard. :lol :lol
Honestly, how mad are you that LeBron will never be considered the GOAT?

[GimmeThat]

because basketball made its attempt to be a global sport, then all of a sudden they are building schools in remote countries

all the same time shipping home made canned food to them

[Phoenix]

Another quality meltdown from this retard. :lol :lol

And another useless post from you. You're what happens when siblings procreate.

Like I told your basement-dwelling ass last time, thanks for the recognition. :cheers:

[Manny98]

You're an idiot. Orlando, Phoenix, New York, Seattle had better top to bottom rosters. Cleveland weren't a joke either. I'd argue the 98 Jazz were also more talented top to bottom, with MJ at the tailend of his prime and Scottie limping his way through game 6 with a fukked back. The 98 Pacers with Reggie, Smits, Jalen Rose, Mullin, Mark Jackson and Davis Boys? There's no talent deficit there.....at all.

Lostcause has already schooled you on the stupidity of the expansion argument. The expansions spread the talent around to where the 3 star formula that won the majority of 80s championships went to a 2 star system that lasted for 25 years until the current star collusion/ AAU superteams of the last decade. To say that Jordan benefitted from expansion is to act like the Bulls were isolated from it. Every other team in the league got weaker but someone his didn''t? You don't have a point, you're just sticking your fingers in your ears being a useless little troll. Go play in traffic.
The 98 Jazz were more loaded than the Bulls? gtfo :roll: :roll: :roll:

They were a 55 win team that replaced Horace Grant with Dennis Rodman replaced BJ Armstrong with Michael ****ing Jordan then you add guys like Ron Harper & Toni Kukoc then you have the second most stacked team the league has seen the past 30 years

I can't believe you just said with a straight face that the 96-98 Bulls were less talented than the Knicks.Sonics, Jazz that's literally 3ball level trolling :oldlol:

[Manny98]

85-90: Pistons and Celtics supporting casts were too much for MJ to beat them by himself.

95: The Bulls had a super lackluster interior presence that year to go up against Horace Grant and Shaq
Look at these excuse :roll:

"MJ had no help" :cry: :roll:

[Phoenix]

The 98 Jazz were more loaded than the Bulls? gtfo :roll: :roll: :roll:

They were a 55 win team that replaced Horace Grant with Dennis Rodman replaced BJ Armstrong with Michael ****ing Jordan then you add guys like Ron Harper & Toni Kukoc then you have the second most stacked team the league has seen the past 30 years

I can't believe you just said with a straight face that the 96-98 Bulls were less talented than the Knicks.Sonics, Jazz that's literally 3ball level trolling :oldlol:

The 98 Bulls weren't loaded. You had a 35 year old Jordan, 32 year old Pippen missing 38 games, 37 year old Rodman who averaged 3 and 8 in the finals. Harper was 34. That team struggled out of the gate until they found their rhythm and MJ kept them afloat until Pippen returned. The Jazz, despite being a veteran team themselves, were healthier with an MVP level player in Malone, Stockton was still strong and steady at the point, with Hornacek, Russell, Eisley, Shandon Anderson as quality role players. They weren't loaded as much as they were deep, with a system in place that handily took out Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler Rockets, Duncan/Robinson Spurs, and Shaq/Eddie Jones/Van Exel/ young Kobe Lakers. They weren't a 'worse' team than the Bulls on paper. The difference was MJ, as demonstrated at the end of game 6 in the finals.

The 96-98 Bulls on paper were less talented than the Magic from top to bottom. We fall into the trap, with the benefit of hindsight, of acting like the 96 Bulls were ordained to rule the league that year as they did. You had a returning MJ coming off an embarrassing post-season loss to the Magic. There was doubt that he was going to reclaim his place as the best player. Rodman by that point was considered not worth the headaches and MJ/Pippen as the team leaders took a chance even taking him on. None of this shit, the 72 wins, the championship was a foregone conclusion. Shaq was an MVP level talent, a top 5 player in Penny. Nick Anderson, the same 'all-star Horace Grant' that you like to act was better than he was, Dennis Scott hitting 250 3's a night( that was elite volume for the era). The Sonics with Shawn Kemp, one of the top power forwards/players at the time? Gary Payton, the defensive player of the year? Detlef Schrempf, former all-star? Hersey Hawkins, former all-star? Sam Perkins? Nate Mcmillan? Yeah, I can comfortably say that team wasn't 'less talented'. You underestimate, or ignore, that the main difference between the Bulls and other elite teams was MJ. Take MJ off the Bulls,take Shaq off the Magic, take Payton or Kemp off the Sonics. In other words, take the best player off those teams. You rolling with Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc over Penny/Grant/Nick Anderson/3D? You taking them over Payton(or Kemp), Hawkins, Schrempt? I wouldn't.

The Knicks had less overall talent? The 93 Knicks has Ewing, Starks, Oakley, Rolando Blackman, Anthony Mason, Doc Rivers, Greg Anthony, Charles Smith. The prior years saw Gerald Wilkins and Xavier Mcdaniels. Those team were easily, from 1 to 12, deeper rosters.

We're calling names that you have never seen in your life. Because none of your arguing points indicate you actually watched any of this shit. You're a basketball reference poster, at best. Your basketball 'insight' really doesn't go beyond stats and names on a page.

[Manny98]

Jordan > Malone
Pippen > Stockton
Rodman > Hornacek
Kukoc > Russell


Bulls were the most stacked team of the 90s by a mile.

Take MJ off the Bulls they're still winning at least 55 games what other team can you say that statement to if they lost their best player ?

[Phoenix]

Jordan > Malone
Pippen > Stockton
Rodman > Hornacek
Kukoc > Russell


Bulls were the most stacked team of the 90s by a mile.

Take MJ off the Bulls they're still winning at least 55 games what other team can you say that statement to if they lost their best player ?

And despite that breakdown, it took the Bulls needing a clutch MJ steal and jump shot to win the title and avoid game 7 on the road. MJ scored 52% of the Bulls points in game 6. The Jazz bench scored 19 points to the Bulls 11. The starters outside of Jordan and Malone? The Bulls 31, The Jazz 36. Longley didn't score in game 6, and had 2 rebounds as the starting center. Rodman has 7 and 8 off the bench. All the empirical evidence points to exactly what I said before: in a battle of otherwise equal forces, MJ was the difference.

Take Jordan off the Bulls and they don't win the championship. How many regular season games they win in the process of failing to win a title is irrelevant. The '55 win' schtick is beyond tired at this point. The Bulls system facilitated players being more than assist targets like your avatar's methodology.

[Mr Feeny]

And another useless post from you. You're what happens when siblings procreate.

Like I told your basement-dwelling ass last time, thanks for the recognition. :cheers:

:lol

[Manny98]

And despite that breakdown, it took the Bulls needing a clutch MJ steal and jump shot to win the title and avoid game 7 on the road. MJ scored 52% of the Bulls points in game 6. The Jazz bench scored 19 points to the Bulls 11. The starters outside of Jordan and Malone? The Bulls 31, The Jazz 36. Longley didn't score in game 6, and had 2 rebounds as the starting center. Rodman has 7 and 8 off the bench. All the empirical evidence points to exactly what I said before: in a battle of otherwise equal forces, MJ was the difference.

Take Jordan off the Bulls and they don't win the championship. How many regular season games they win in the process of failing to win a title is irrelevant. The '55 win' schtick is beyond tired at this point. The Bulls system facilitated players being more than assist targets like your avatar's methodology.
Answer the question, what other team outside of the Bulls wins 55 and are still legitimate contenders without their best player

[Phoenix]

Answer the question, what other team outside of the Bulls wins 55 and are still legitimate contenders without their best player

You know why the answer to this is irrelevant? The 94 Bulls team didn't win 55 games on talent. They won with a system in place. Was Pippen the best player in the league? No. One of, but the best? No. You'd look at Shaq, Hakeem and Admiral first in 94 before you figured out where Pip ranked. Were Horace Grant and BJ supremely talented players? Kukoc as a rookie averaging 10ppg off the bench? There's a number of teams with more on-paper talent that the 94 Bulls. So as I said, the fact they won 55 games is irrelevant. Did they win? No? Ok then. It's not surprising you keep that schtick up though. You clearly come from the generation where everyone gets a cookie for competing, even last place.

But if you'd like me to play a guessing game? The 96 Magic won 60 games with Shaq missing 22, and were 17-5 without him. Failing any other injuries a core of peak Penny/Nick Anderson/Horace Grant and Dennis Scott easily wins 55 games and would still be a threat in the east playoffs.

[Manny98]

You know why the answer to this is irrelevant? The 94 Bulls team didn't win 55 games on talent. They won with a system in place. Was Pippen the best player in the league? No. One of, but the best? No. You'd look at Shaq, Hakeem and Admiral first in 94 before you figured out where Pip ranked. Were Horace Grant and BJ supremely talented players? Kukoc as a rookie averaging 10ppg off the bench? There's a number of teams with more on-paper talent that the 94 Bulls. So as I said, the fact they won 55 games is irrelevant. Did they win? No? Ok then. It's not surprising you keep that schtick up though. You clearly come from the generation where everyone gets a cookie for competing, even last place.

But if you'd like me to play a guessing game? The 96 Magic won 60 games with Shaq missing 22, and were 17-5 without him. Failing any other injuries a core of peak Penny/Nick Anderson/Horace Grant and Dennis Scott easily wins 55 games and would still be a threat in the east playoffs.
So their was only 1 team that was comparable in talent to the Bulls, not the 5 that you initially said :oldlol:

And system in place my ass the Bulls remained contenders without MJ because they were that talented

You had Pippen who was a top 5 player and the best non Big man in the entire league at the time to go along with 2 other all stars that's easily a 50+ win team off talent alone

If the Bulls had the time to develop chemistry without MJ and get more pieces to build around Pippen a Pippen,BJ,Grant core could definitely win a title or 2 together

[Phoenix]

So their was only 1 team that was comparable in talent to the Bulls, not the 5 that you initially said :oldlol:

And system in place my ass the Bulls remained contenders without MJ because they were that talented

You had Pippen who was a top 5 player and the best non Big man in the entire league at the time to go along with 2 other all stars that's easily a 50+ win team off talent alone

If the Bulls had the time to develop chemistry without MJ and get more pieces to build around Pippen a Pippen,BJ,Grant core could definitely win a title or 2 together

No, the Magic were more talented. Talented enough to lose Shaq for quarter of the year and retain a 77% win percentage. Something still continues to elude you( or you just deliberately ignore) . THE DIFFERENCE between the Bulls and the other upper echelon teams was MJ being the best player. THAT'S where the talent difference lied, not in Pippen, Horace Grant and Kukoc being vastly superior to some of the upper echelon talent on other teams. You're conflating 'talent' and 'teamwork'. Lots of 'talented' teams haven't done anything. The Spurs of the past few years didn't compete because of a overwhelming talent advantage. You think the 2016 Spurs that won 67 games were superior in talent to just about everyone else? The Spurs were like the Bulls in the sense that they had a system in place that facilitated everyone playing up to their capacity. That's why they compete even with key pieces missing. I wouldn't expect a Brantard to understand this, though. You celebrate one-man systems that completely fall apart when that one man isn't around. That's not sustainable ball, and that's why none of Lebron's teams ever had sustained success and he has to hop around to teams with 'sure' pieces in place. The Bulls of the 90s were constructed organically and built over years, not quick fix collisions that go to shit in year 4.

Now answer this, since you moonwalked past it:

"And despite that breakdown, it took the Bulls needing a clutch MJ steal and jump shot to win the title and avoid game 7 on the road. MJ scored 52% of the Bulls points in game 6. The Jazz bench scored 19 points to the Bulls 11. The starters outside of Jordan and Malone? The Bulls 31, The Jazz 36. Longley didn't score in game 6, and had 2 rebounds as the starting center. Rodman has 7 and 8 off the bench. All the empirical evidence points to exactly what I said before: in a battle of otherwise equal forces, MJ was the difference."

If the Bulls in 98 were so inherently superior to the Jazz, can you advise how they managed to win game 6, on the road, with the Utah starters and bench players outscoring the Bulls starters and bench players. Any theories as to why the Jazz team were outplaying the Bulls team and still lost?

[Manny98]

That's why multiple collumists said that Pippen deserved the finals MVP in the 98 finals

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html

But it was all MJ doe :rolleyes:

[Phoenix]

That's why multiple collumists said that Pippen deserved the finals MVP in the 98 finals

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html

But it was all MJ doe :rolleyes:

I didn't say it was all MJ. But Pippen wasn't a factor in game 5 and 6, and the MVP talk was mostly because of his defensive impact that series. MJ was carrying the offense.....as usual. And this is a deflection. So I'll repeat for your convenience:

"And despite that breakdown, it took the Bulls needing a clutch MJ steal and jump shot to win the title and avoid game 7 on the road. MJ scored 52% of the Bulls points in game 6. The Jazz bench scored 19 points to the Bulls 11. The starters outside of Jordan and Malone? The Bulls 31, The Jazz 36. Longley didn't score in game 6, and had 2 rebounds as the starting center. Rodman has 7 and 8 off the bench. All the empirical evidence points to exactly what I said before: in a battle of otherwise equal forces, MJ was the difference."

You're arguing that the Bulls were flat out better than the Jazz in 98. I'm asking you why the above needed to happen for the Bulls to win. Since you like to argue that MJ doesn't win anything without Pippen, then logic would dictate that Pippen's injury making him a non-factor to close the series should have swung the outcome to the Jazz. And yet.....

Still waiting.

[Manny98]

Pippen had 11 rebounds & 11 assists and was still huge presence defensively in game 5 df do you mean he wasn't a factor? :roll:

Let's no forget Kukoc dropping 30 :bowdown: if it wasn't for MJ bricking away the Bulls win in 5 :oldlol:

In game 6 Pippen was a +16 on the court whilst MJ was only a +2 :confusedshrug:

And yes MJ doesn't win f*ck all without Pippen that is a fact

[superduper]

Bran doesn't win fk all without an elite scoring guard :(

[Phoenix]

Pippen had 11 rebounds & 11 assists and was still huge presence defensively in game 5 df do you mean he wasn't a factor? :roll:

Let's no forget Kukoc dropping 30 :bowdown: if it wasn't for MJ bricking away the Bulls win in 5 :oldlol:

In game 6 Pippen was a +16 on the court whilst MJ was only a +2 :confusedshrug:

And yes MJ doesn't win f*ck all without Pippen that is a fact

Pippen scored 6 points in game 5 and 8 in game 6. The outcome of a game isn't determined by who rebounded or assisted more. Good thing too, considering the Jazz both outassisted and out-rebounded the Bulls over the series.

Ahh, so MJ 'bricking away' to 28 points was a detriment, but Scottie going 2 for 16 wasn't? Interesting.

Their plus/minus scores should tell you something about the reliability of that stat. Are you trying to argue that Pippen was more responsible than MJ for the game 6 victory? What about Ron Harper? He was +5. What are you arguing?

[LAmbruh]

Manny absolutely destroying these cats :oldlol: :applause:

[Manny98]

Pippen scored 6 points in game 5 and 8 in game 6. The outcome of a game isn't determined by who rebounded or assisted more. Good thing too, considering the Jazz both outassisted and out-rebounded the Bulls over the series.

Ahh, so MJ 'bricking away' to 28 points was a detriment, but Scottie going 2 for 16 wasn't? Interesting.

Their plus/minus scores should tell you something about the reliability of that stat. Are you trying to argue that Pippen was more responsible than MJ for the game 6 victory? What about Ron Harper? He was +5. What are you arguing?
Typical Jordan fanboy logic, rebounds,assists & defense don't matter only scoring

The outcome of a game is determined by who scores more i know that and the majority of the points scored in a basketball game are created from assists & rebounds dumbass

Pippen made up for his poor scoring in game 5 with his defense and playmaking, Pippen is the type of player who can impact the game in a multitude of ways without scoring the basketball.
Something you Jordan stans fail to acknowledge because your so focused on only the scoring aspect

MJ had a whopping 1 rebound and 1 assist in game 6 & shot poorly from the field, no wonder why he was only a +2 whilst he was on the court in game 6

[TheMan]

So their was only 1 team that was comparable in talent to the Bulls, not the 5 that you initially said :oldlol:

And system in place my ass the Bulls remained contenders without MJ because they were that talented

You had Pippen who was a top 5 player and the best non Big man in the entire league at the time to go along with 2 other all stars that's easily a 50+ win team off talent alone

If the Bulls had the time to develop chemistry without MJ and get more pieces to build around Pippen a Pippen,BJ,Grant core could definitely win a title or 2 together
Lol, this guy seriously thinking BJ and HoGrant were perennial All Star material :oldlol:

Explain why both made the 94 All Star and never before nor after that season again in their careers? Both were very good role players...perennial All Stars my ass :roll:

Kid never watched a game back in the 90s and he's trying to convince us otherwise of what we saw, hilarious :rolleyes:

[superduper]

Lol, this guy seriously thinking BJ and HoGrant were perennial All Star material :oldlol:

Explain why both made the 94 All Star and never before nor after that season again in their careers? Both were very good role players...perennial All Stars my ass :roll:

Kid never watched a game back in the 90s and he's trying to convince us otherwise of what we saw, hilarious :rolleyes:

Horace, Kukoc, Armstrong, Kerr, Cartwright, Paxson, Pau, Bynum, Fisher are SUPERSTARS.

Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, Anthony Davis, Cousins, Isaiah Thomas, Ray Allen, Kyle Korver, Danny Green are all TRASH.

Get your LeTard logic right pal :mad:

[Manny98]

Lol, this guy seriously thinking BJ and HoGrant were perennial All Star material :oldlol:

Explain why both made the 94 All Star and never before nor after that season again in their careers? Both were very good role players...perennial All Stars my ass :roll:

Kid never watched a game back in the 90s and he's trying to convince us otherwise of what we saw, hilarious :rolleyes:
Grant definitely had star level impact idgaf about appearances Mike Conley never made a all star team and is far better than a lot of players that were perreniel all stars

[Phoenix]

Typical Jordan fanboy logic, rebounds,assists & defense don't matter only scoring

The outcome of a game is determined by who scores more i know that and the majority of the points scored in a basketball game are created from assists & rebounds dumbass

Pippen made up for his poor scoring in his defense and playmaking, Pippen is the type of player who can impact the game in a multitude of ways without scoring the basketball.
Something you Jordan stans fail to acknowledge because your so focused on only the scoring aspect

Typical Bron fanboy logic, stats matter whether you win or lose. Except, I didn't say rebounding and assists don't matter. The most important attribute as a player is being a go to clutch/alpha scorer. All other categories fall in line after that. And again, if rebounding and assisting carried equal value to scoring, then a team who outrebounded and outassisted a team should WIN. EVERY. TIME. Nice attempt to twist my words, though.

You'd have a point about only focusing on scoring if MJ wasn't all time elite on both sides of the ball, and was also a more than capable playmaker in his own right while being a GOAT level scorer.

Also, Vorp and GmSc, because basketball is played on an excel spreadsheet.

[Phoenix]

MJ had a whopping 1 rebound and 1 assist in game 6 & shot poorly from the field, no wonder why he was only a +2 whilst he was on the court in game 6

Jud Buechler was +3 with 2 points, 2 rebounds and an assist. How far down the plus/minus rabbit hole you're going?

[Phoenix]

Grant definitely had star level impact idgaf about appearances Mike Conley never made a all star team and is far better than a lot of players that were perreniel all stars

Any number of players in the 90s had Horace Grant impact. Charles Oakley. Kevin Willis. Terry Cummings. Otis Thorpe. Buck Williams. Actually a few were flat-out better. Nobody looked at Horace at being a cut above players like that. This is a lot of revisionist bullshit. He was a middle of the road power forward if we're doing a rankings list, who played his role well. No team would go anywhere if he was its 'best player'.

[Manny98]

Typical Bron fanboy logic, stats matter whether you win or lose. Except, I didn't say rebounding and assists don't matter. The most important attribute as a player is being a go to clutch/alpha scorer. All other categories fall in line after that. And again, if rebounding and assisting carried equal value to scoring, then a team who outrebounded and outassisted a team should WIN. EVERY. TIME. Nice attempt to twist my words, though.

You'd have a point about only focusing on scoring if MJ wasn't all time elite on both sides of the ball, and was also a more than capable playmaker in his own right while being a GOAT level scorer.

Also, Vorp and GmSc, because basketball is played on an excel spreadsheet.
Except Points stem from rebounds & assists. How is a team going to score without great playmakers like Pippen moron

Guys like Rodman grabbing 10+ offensive rebounds create so many second chance opportunitys which leads to more points

Stop being so ignorant acting like MJ did everything by himself when he had the most loaded roster of his entire era

Many people said Pippen deserved finals MVP in 98 and many people said Rodman was finals MVP in 96

[Manny98]

Any number of players in the 90s had Horace Grant impact. Charles Oakley. Kevin Willis. Terry Cummings. Otis Thorpe. Buck Williams. Actually a few were flat-out better. Nobody looked at Horace at being a cut above players like that. This is a lot of revisionist bullshit. He was a middle of the road power forward if we're doing a rankings list, who played his role well. No team would go anywhere if he was its 'best player'.
And Buck Williams was a perennial all star and made the all NBA team once so yes star impact like i said :lol

[Phoenix]

Except Points stem from rebounds & assists. How is a team going to score without great playmakers like Pippen moron

Guys like Rodman grabbing 10+ offensive rebounds create so many second chance opportunitys which leads to more points

Stop being so ignorant acting like MJ did everything by himself when he had the most loaded roster of his entire era

Many people said Pippen deserved finals MVP in 98 and many people said Rodman was finals MVP in 96


Rodman averaged 3 and 8 in the 98 finals. Are you arguing that's loaded? Pippen was great defensively 96-98 and horribly efficient offensively as a 2nd option. The Bulls were as much a sum of its parts and overall teamwork as it was about MJ's greatness or being supremely talented compared to other upper echelon teams. Again, I don't expect a Bran retard to grasp the idea of a team built year over year with teamwork and not 'just add water' ready made teams with proven star talent teaming up to circumvent the organic process of building a champion. Ever wondered why none of Lebron's championship teams get ranked among the very best teams over? You'll hear the Bulls, the Warriors, the showtime Lakers, the Celtics....you never hear the Heat or the Cavs. Ever wonder why?

[Phoenix]

And Buck Williams was a perennial all star and made the all NBA team once so yes star impact like i said :lol

Yes he did.....in 1983. By the early 90's he was like a 12 and 8 guy. He made 3 all-star teams. That's not 'perennial' by any stretch. Horace was a middle of the road power forward who had one '15 minutes in the sun' all-star season. And with numbers( 15 and 11) that are hardly eye popping, not when the great 'star' power forwards of the era were 20/10 guys in their sleep.

[Manny98]

Yes he did.....in 1983. By the early 90's he was like a 12 and 8 guy. He made 3 all-star teams. That's not 'perennial' by any stretch. Horace was a middle of the road power forward who had one '15 minutes in the sun' all-star season. And with numbers( 15 and 11) that are hardly eye popping, not when the great 'star' power forwards of the era were 20/10 guys in their sleep.
He was the third/fourth option on his team how do you expect him to average higher than 15 and 11

He was a all NBA level defender and ranked towards the top of the league in win shares and +/- Grant has all star impact what about that is so hard to except you stupid fanboy

[Manny98]

Rodman averaged 3 and 8 in the 98 finals. Are you arguing that's loaded? Pippen was great defensively 96-98 and horribly efficient offensively as a 2nd option. The Bulls were as much a sum of its parts and overall teamwork as it was about MJ's greatness or being supremely talented compared to other upper echelon teams. Again, I don't expect a Bran retard to grasp the idea of a team built year over year with teamwork and not 'just add water' ready made teams with proven star talent teaming up to circumvent the organic process of building a champion. Ever wondered why none of Lebron's championship teams get ranked among the very best teams over? You'll hear the Bulls, the Warriors, the showtime Lakers, the Celtics....you never hear the Heat or the Cavs. Ever wonder why?
yes the Bulls were f*cking loaded

A cast of Pippen,Rodman,Harper,Kukoc is absolutely loaded

Defensively that's the greatest cast ever no player had as much defensive help as MJ

they were no slouch offensively either with Pippen giving you 19/6 and Kukoc averaging 15ppg off the bench a having snipers like Steve Kerr to kick it out to

[Phoenix]

He was the third/fourth option on his team how do you expect him to average higher than 15 and 11

He was a all NBA level defender and ranked towards the top of the league in win shares and +/- Grant has all star impact what about that is so hard to except you stupid fanboy

So he couldn't be a higher offensive option on a team with B.J Armstrong?

I know exactly what Horace was. He was a tough, defensive role player with a decent 15 foot jumpshot when left open and converted garbage points off putbacks and feeds. If he was as great as you proclaim, then why are players like Grant Hill and Tracy Mcgrady, who won sweet fukk all in ther careers and could never get out of the first round as their teams best player, hall of famers while Horace Grant has 3 rings and hasn't sniffed the hall yet? People know *exactly* what he brought to the table and judge him appropriately. It's only your retarded ass acting like he was KG out there or something.

[Real14]

Why the f.uck is this thread still up!?:biggums:

[Phoenix]

yes the Bulls were f*cking loaded

A cast of Pippen,Rodman,Harper,Kukoc is absolutely loaded

Defensively that's the greatest cast ever no player had as much defensive help as MJ

they were no slouch offensively either with Pippen giving you 19/6 and Kukoc averaging 15ppg off the bench a having snipers like Steve Kerr to kick it out to

Harper was a 7ppg role player in Chicago and he was at that level BEFORE MJ returned. Kukoc averaged 13ppg off the bench. Any number of fukking role players have been better than these guys, past and present. The core of the Bulls dynasty was always Jordan, Pippen and Phil.....with a cast of interchangeable role players between 3peats.

[Phoenix]

Why the f.uck is this thread still up!?:biggums:

Gotta get them clicks I guess. :confusedshrug:

[Manny98]

Andre Igoudala was only a 1x all star as well and everyone acknowledges that he had perennial all star level impact as well in his prime

I'm not saying Grant is as good as KG just give the guy his credit and stop acting like he's some easily replaceble role player

[Phoenix]

Andre Igoudala was only a 1x all star as well and everyone acknowledges that he had perennial all star level impact as well in his prime

I'm not saying Grant is as good as KG just give the guy his credit and stop acting like he's some easily replaceble role player

Horace was a role player. The problem is you equate that to mean it's a bad thing. There's more 'role players' in the league than there are stars. Horace wasn't a star, he was a very good role player who did alot of the dirty inside work, rebounding and defense that contributed to the Bulls success. He wasn't uniquely talented to the degree that other players at his level couldn't approximate what he did and the Bulls still win. Like, he's not a star and he wasn't a regular Joe Blow. He was an above average player. Arguments like this go off the rails because these things can't be debated with any nuance. It's either to the extreme left or right.

[TheMan]

Jud Buechler was +3 with 2 points, 2 rebounds and an assist. How far down the plus/minus rabbit hole you're going?
Manny98..."Jud Buechler had more to do with the Bulls winning than MJ, the stats say so..."

:facepalm

[TheMan]

So he couldn't be a higher offensive option on a team with B.J Armstrong?

I know exactly what Horace was. He was a tough, defensive role player with a decent 15 foot jumpshot when left open and converted garbage points off putbacks and feeds. If he was as great as you proclaim, then why are players like Grant Hill and Tracy Mcgrady, who won sweet fukk all in ther careers and could never get out of the first round as their teams best player, hall of famers while Horace Grant has 3 rings and hasn't sniffed the hall yet? People know *exactly* what he brought to the table and judge him appropriately. It's only your retarded ass acting like he was KG out there or something.
Exactly this...dude was also good filling the lanes on a fastbreak.

The overrating of HoGrant has an agenda behind it, to make it seem like the Bulls were as loaded top down as the 80s Lakers, Celtics, 76ers and Pistons. Effing LeBrantards just making up excuse after excuse for their bf and trying to make it seem like the Bulls could've won without MJ. Grant was a very good role player but he wasn't a top 5 PF, even top 10 was a stretch. Switch Grant with Oakley and they lose some speed but gain in toughness, MJ Bulls still threepeat and Oakley wasn't a top 10 PF either.

[Manny98]

Exactly this...dude was also good filling the lanes on a fastbreak.

The overrating of HoGrant has an agenda behind it, to make it seem like the Bulls were as loaded top down as the 80s Lakers, Celtics, 76ers and Pistons. Effing LeBrantards just making up excuse after excuse for their bf and trying to make it seem like the Bulls could've won without MJ. Grant was a very good role player but he wasn't a top 5 PF, even top 10 was a stretch. Switch Grant with Oakley and they lose some speed but gain in toughness, MJ Bulls still threepeat and Oakley wasn't a top 10 PF either.
They won 55 games and were one bad call away from going to the NBA finals the very first season without MJ :oldlol:

If Pippen had more time to get used to being the first option and the Bulls signed one or 2 guys to build around Pippen then the Bulls could definitely win a couple of chips without MJ

And lol at Grant not being a top 10 PF :oldlol:

Name 10 guys that were better than 91-95 Horace Grant ill wait

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

They won 55 games and were one bad call away from going to the NBA finals the very first season without MJ :oldlol:

If Pippen had more time to get used to being the first option and the Bulls signed one or 2 guys to build around Pippen then the Bulls could definitely win a couple of chips without MJ

The finals? You mean...the conference finals?

That's beside the point though.

Why act like you even care about Pippen. Jordan. Or the Bulls.

You're a bitchass troll. Why you do it...who knows? Maybe you're a miserable ****. But the fact still remains. You're trolling.

[Phoenix]

They won 55 games and were one bad call away from going to the NBA finals the very first season without MJ :oldlol:

If Pippen had more time to get used to being the first option and the Bulls signed one or 2 guys to build around Pippen then the Bulls could definitely win a couple of chips without MJ

And lol at Grant not being a top 10 PF :oldlol:

Name 10 guys that were better than 91-95 Horace Grant ill wait

One, it was the second round, not the conference finals. I love how people automatically act like they were shoe-in to beat the Pacers. Indiana matched up very well with the Bulls even when MJ was there.

Ten power forwards between 91 and 95 better? In no order:

Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Chris Webber
Shawn Kemp
Larry Johnson
Derrick Coleman
Dennis Rodman
Vin Baker
Danny Manning
Kevin Willis


Then you got:

Cliff Robinson
Otis Thorpe
Charles Oakley
Tom Gugliotta
Laphonso Ellis
Dino Radja
Clarence Weatherspoon

You can pick the bones out of where he fits in the second list of PFs. He's not on the first list.

[Manny98]

One, it was the second round, not the conference finals. I love how people automatically act like they were shoe-in to beat the Pacers. Indiana matched up very well with the Bulls even when MJ was there.

Ten power forwards between 91 and 95 better? In no order:

Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Chris Webber
Shawn Kemp
Larry Johnson
Derrick Coleman
Dennis Rodman
Vin Baker
Danny Manning
Kevin Willis


Then you got:

Cliff Robinson
Otis Thorpe
Charles Oakley
Tom Gugliotta
Laphonso Ellis
Dino Radja
Clarence Weatherspoon

You can pick the bones out of where he fits in the second list of PFs. He's not on the first list.
Barkley, Malone, Kemp - yes

Chris Webbers prime was late 90s early 2000s so it doesn't count

Larry Johnson - i'd rather have Grant on my team

Coleman averaged a higher ppg but Grant was overall more impactfull on both ends

I'd give Rodman the slight edge over Grant

Vin Baker - late 90s so doesn't count

Danny Manning & Kevin Willis - you can't be serious :facepalm

I'm not even going to talk about your second list. The nerve to argue that Clarence Weatherspoon and Daniel Radja were as good or better than Horace Grant is banworthy trolling

[Manny98]

From RealGm


.Horace is the best defensive player I've ever been around," said Magic assistant and former Mavericks coach Richie Adubato. "He comes every night mentally ready to play, knock people down, make big plays; and it's started to rub off on our players."

"He's the anchor of the back of the defense," said Adubato. "He recognizes things he shouldn't recognize. When the pick-and-roll guy on the other side gets beat, he sees that and comes up right away. I don't know who taught him how to play. But he's one of the most fundamentally sound players I've ever seen."

"There's no question our team feeds off Horace on the defensive end of the floor, especially defensive rebounding," said Hill. "When you have a guy challenging the opposition on every play and helping out teammates, you can't help but be grateful."


Grant seems to be one of the most impactful players in the NBA in 1991-92 season, despite his fairly modest traditional basic statline.

Grant was 3rd in the league in Win Shares (trailing Jordan and Karl Malone, ahead of such superstars like D-Rob, Ewing, Barkley, Stockton, Pippen, Drexler).

5th in BPM (behind Robinson, Jordan, Drexler and Barkley).

Led the league in Offensive Rating (his 132 ORtg is the 3rd highest of all-time, or at least since it can be calculated).

He was also 5th in TS%, and in the top 20 in PER (16th, to be exact).

Grant is better than his teammate Pippen based on many of those stats.

Statistically, it really seems like Grant was the guy who allowed the Bulls to win 67 games that year. Jordan seems to be clearly better in '91, Pippen about the same in '91 and '92, but Grant's impact was enormous.

Even in the playoffs, in increased minutes (over 38 per game), against tougher opponents, he was still 6.7 BPM guy, which is superstar territory.

Grant seems to be the epitome of a player whose value is WAY larger than simple boxscores indicate, and a great proof of why even boxscore-derived advanced metrics can be very useful in terms of expanding our knowledge of the game.

I don't know if we have any plus/minus type stats for the 1991-92 season (can't recall seeing any), but I wouldn't be surprised if Grant was an absolute monster based on those, considering how smart he was and how good he was defensively.

On/off numbers of the 90-93 Bulls

Player MP on MP off +/- On Off Net Rtg Team Notes
Horace Grant 550 223 89 8.3 -10.8 19.2 CHI 90-93
Michael Jordan 609 164 85 7.2 -10.9 18.2 CHI 90-93
Scottie Pippen 600 173 65 5.5 -3.4 9.0 CHI 90-93

The way you Jordan stans downplay and disrespect his supporting cast is disgusting. If you seriously think peak Horace Grant was not a top 10 Power Forward then you legit should quit ever discussing basketball :facepalm

[RealSkipBayless]

One, it was the second round, not the conference finals. I love how people automatically act like they were shoe-in to beat the Pacers. Indiana matched up very well with the Bulls even when MJ was there.

Ten power forwards between 91 and 95 better? In no order:

Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Chris Webber
Shawn Kemp
Larry Johnson
Derrick Coleman
Dennis Rodman
Vin Baker
Danny Manning
Kevin Willis


Then you got:

Cliff Robinson
Otis Thorpe
Charles Oakley
Tom Gugliotta
Laphonso Ellis
Dino Radja
Clarence Weatherspoon

You can pick the bones out of where he fits in the second list of PFs. He's not on the first list.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Manny98]

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Dude really said with a straight face that Danny Manning & Kevin Willis were better than f*cking Horace Grant:roll: :roll:

Might be one of the dumbest things ive ever heard on ISH

[Phoenix]

Barkley, Malone, Kemp - yes

Chris Webbers prime was late 90s early 2000s so it doesn't count

Larry Johnson - i'd rather have Grant on my team

Coleman averaged a higher ppg but Grant was overall more impactfull on both ends

I'd give Rodman the slight edge over Grant

Vin Baker - late 90s so doesn't count

Danny Manning & Kevin Willis - you can't be serious :facepalm

I'm not even going to talk about your second list. The nerve to argue that Clarence Weatherspoon and Daniel Radja were as good or better than Horace Grant is banworthy trolling

You gave a range of 91 to 95. You didn't say anything about 'prime'. Chris Webber by 95 was better than Horace ever was. I'd say as a rookie he was better. Vin Baker was dropping numbers by 95 as a primary option on the Bucks.

Saying you'd rather have Grant over Larry Johnson is your business. Not a single GM would agree with that in the time frame you're talking about. Horace Grant has literally NO history of being the best player on a team that even made the playoffs.

Derrick Coleman's reputation eventually worsened as time went on. But between 91 and 95? Noone in their right mind would take Horace over him

Lets not pretend like you have enough insight to know how good Danny Manning or Kevin Willis were. Kevin Willis?! This amuses you? Kevin Willis was doing 18 and 16 in 92. 18 and 13 in 93. 19 and 12 in 94. Exactly why the fukk are you laughing?

You really are retarded. I didn't say Dino Radja or Weatherspoon were better. I put them in the second tier of power forwards and I said that you can fit Horace anywhere you like in THAT tier, but he wasn't a tier 1 power forward at ANY point in his career. Part of your intellectual retardation is the inability to comprehend.

The problem with trying to see where Horace fits in is that there is no evidence of how good he would be as the teams best player, nor how good the team would be in that situation.

[Phoenix]

Dude really said with a straight face that Danny Manning & Kevin Willis were better than f*cking Horace Grant:roll: :roll:

Might be one of the dumbest things ive ever heard on ISH

You're a fukking idiot, as is the inbred retard above you who has yet to offer a relevant post on ISH. Kevin Willis was dropping numbers Horace Grant could only dream of, and that's including when MJ was out of the league in 94 in case you want to bullshit argument that MJ was holding down his numbers.

[Phoenix]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Another emoji meltdown from this retard. :lol

[Manny98]

You're a fukking idiot, as is the inbred retard above you who has yet to offer a relevant post on ISH. Kevin Willis was dropping numbers Horace Grant could only dream of, and that's including when MJ was out of the league in 94 in case you want to bullshit argument that MJ was holding down his numbers.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Phoenix]

Dude really said with a straight face that Danny Manning & Kevin Willis were better than f*cking Horace Grant:roll: :roll:

Might be one of the dumbest things ive ever heard on ISH

:roll: :roll: :roll:

:confusedshrug:

[superduper]

All I'm gonna say is if Kevin Willis were on MJs team instead of Grant, we would be talking about Willis like he's some superstar too.

[Manny98]

Peak Horace Grant was

3rd in the entire league in win shares

5th in BPM

Was one of the best defenders in the league

And had the best on/off of the entire first 3-peat Bulls

That Horace Grant is apparently worse than Kevin Willis a guy who is no where near the defender Grant was a no where near as impactful. Willis was putting up those number on a team that missed the f*cking playoffs for christ sake

If your building a championship team no one in their right f*cking mind is taking Kevin Willis or Danny manning over Horace Grant just stop it your embarrassing yourself in this thread

[Manny98]

All I'm gonna say is if Kevin Willis were on MJs team instead of Grant, we would be talking about Willis like he's some superstar too.
Willis is not close to the defender Grant was and was a negative offensively as well

He just put up empty numbers on a bad team he's not close to being as impactful Grant was

[Phoenix]

Peak Horace Grant was

3rd in the entire league in win shares

5th in BPM

Was one of the best defenders in the league

And had the best on/off of the entire first 3-peat Bulls

That Horace Grant is apparently worse than Kevin Willis a guy who is no where near the defender Grant was a no where near as impactful. Willis was putting up those number on a team that missed the f*cking playoffs for christ sake

If your building a championship team no one in their right f*cking mind is taking Kevin Willis or Danny manning over Horace Grant just stop it your embarrassing yourself in this thread

Didn't read :lol

Peak Horace didn't make the all-NBA team or all-NBA third team in 92, his 'peak'. Kevin Willis did. Let that sink in :oldlol: :applause:

The Hawks didn't make the playoffs in 92 because Dominique missed 40 games with an achilles tear dumbass. You think Horace on the Hawks is doing any better in that situation? :roll: :hammerhead:

[Phoenix]

Willis is not close to the defender Grant was and was a negative offensively as well

He just put up empty numbers on a bad team he's not close to being as impactful Grant was

Really? In 94 he put up 19 and 12 on a 57 win Hawks team with 5 other double digit scorers.

[Manny98]

Grant was much higher than Willis in virtually every single advanced metric that year you f*cking clown. Their is no legitimate argument you can make of Kevin Willis or Danny manning being better than Horace Grant. I genuinely don't think your trolling which is the worst thing

Your almost as bad as 3ball when it comes to MJ why do you have to make it your objective to shit on every single teammate MJ had It's pathetic

[Manny98]

Really? In 94 he put up 19 and 12 on a 57 win Hawks team with 5 other double digit scorers.
Off below average scoring efficiency & played below average defense

[Phoenix]

Grant was much higher than Willis in virtually every single advanced metric that year you f*cking clown. Their is no legitimate argument you can make of Kevin Willis or Danny manning being better than Horace Grant. I genuinely don't think your trolling which is the worst thing

Your almost as bad as 3ball when it comes to MJ

And yet, Willis was considered above Grant in 92 in both the all-star and all-NBA team. I'm glad 'wittle' Manny is here having a brain aneurysm educating us all about things the voting media got wrong 27 years ago.

You're as obsessive-compulsive about Lebron as you proclaim 3ball to be about MJ. You have absolutely no room to take a high ground position. I have no pressing need to come on here and talk about MJ except to counter the dumb shit people like you write in an attempt to rewrite history. I grew up on the 90's Bulls, they were my team. I know exactly the value of what each component brought to the table and in what amounts they should be credited. I know exactly how each player was perceived at the time, and not in retrospect which is the only position you speak from. You didn't see any of this shit 25 years ago and have no fukking clue what you're talking about, just regurgitating excel spreadsheets 'statz' without anything more remotely intelligent backing it up.

[Manny98]

Grant is far better in every statistical area its not even close in fact

I just posted quotes from Coachs saying that Grant was the best defender they've ever worked with

The stats show Grant was a far better & more impactful player than Willis and Manning

You have failed to even build a decent case outside of "i saw them live so my opinion means more"

[Phoenix]

Off below average scoring efficiency & played below average defense

He shot .499 percent from the field and was an actual post offensive presence. As in, you had to account for him offensively. Nobody gameplanned defensively for Horace, he was a garbage scorer( putbacks and feeds). Willis was also a significantly better rebounder so any deficit on the defensive end, he was a better scorer and rebounder.

What's hilarious in all of this, you base your entire argument off a SINGLE YEAR...1992.... and this is supposed to balance out other players being better year over year:oldlol: . That's why you keep :rant :rant on that specific year because in reality, that's the only thing you can come up with on the topic.

[Phoenix]

Grant is far better in every statistical area its not even close in fact

I just posted quotes from Coachs saying that Grant was the best defender they've ever worked with

The stats show Grant was a far better & more impactful player than Willis and Manning

You have failed to even build a decent case outside of "i saw them live so my opinion means more"

Better scorer? Nope. Better rebounder? Nope. You can have your TS% when most of his points were off rebounds and putbacks .

You've failed to build a case beyond "I didn't see any of this, but here's someone else's opinion". So if I'm supposed to accept that opinion, then by extension the VOTERS OPINIONS that Wilis was better as reflected by his all-star team and all-nba selection are just as relevant. To which you would retort... I don't care bout no stinkin All-nba team:rant:cry: ...unless Horace was the one who got that honor.....THEN it would count. Right babyboi?

[Manny98]

Higher plus minus

Higher win shares

Higher PER

Better defender by a landslide

Grant was better offensively as well, MUCH higher ORTG and offensive plus minus

Grant was FAR superior in the playoffs

The only edge Willis has is rebounding that's it

[Phoenix]

Higher plus minus

Higher win shares

Higher PER

Better defender by a landslide

Grant was better offensively as well, MUCH higher ORTG and offensive plus minus

Grant was FAR superior in the playoffs

The only edge Willis has is rebounding that's it

Didn't read.

All-NBA 3rd team. All-star team. Things Willis achieved in the same season as Horace's 'peak year'. Nobody cares that you can quote stats off nba.com to rewrite history as Horace being anything more than a very good role player on the Bulls championship teams. As an individual player, lots of power forwards were inarguably better, arguably better, or on his level.

[Manny98]

Didn't read.

All-NBA 3rd team. All-star team. Things Willis achieved in the same season as Horace's 'peak year'. Nobody cares that you can quote stats off nba.com to rewrite history as Horace being anything more than a very good role player on the Bulls championship teams. As an individual player, lots of power forwards were inarguably better, arguably better, or on his level.
Grant had a higher PER far higher win shares and was a far better defender

Ignore the stats all you want but Grant was better, not by much they were probably on the same tier Willis has the edge in scoring whilst Grant had the big edge in defense and efficiency

Stop being ignorant and acting like Willis was a tier better than Grant when you damm well know he wasn't

[Phoenix]

Grant had a higher PER far higher win shares and was a far better defender

Ignore the stats all you want but Grant was better, not by much they were probably on the same tier Willis has the edge in scoring whilst Grant had the big edge in defense and efficiency

Stop being ignorant and acting like Willis was a tier better than Grant when you damm well know he wasn't

So as I said before, lots of power forwards were inarguably better, debatably better, or at worst on his level. Glad we agree.

[TheCorporation]

Higher plus minus

Higher win shares

Higher PER

Better defender by a landslide

Grant was better offensively as well, MUCH higher ORTG and offensive plus minus

Grant was FAR superior in the playoffs

The only edge Willis has is rebounding that's it


Bingo

Manny bomb

[TheCorporation]

You're a fukking idiot, as is the inbred retard above you who has yet to offer a relevant post on ISH. Kevin Willis was dropping numbers Horace Grant could only dream of, and that's including when MJ was out of the league in 94 in case you want to bullshit argument that MJ was holding down his numbers.

Stay on your meds you pathetic moron

[TheCorporation]

Why did Jordan only make 6 finals?

Why did every other all time great make more?

[Phoenix]

Stay on your meds you pathetic moron

Meltdown. You ok babyboi?

[Manny98]

1. Barkley
2. Malone
3. Kemp


That's only 3 power forwards that are inarguably better

After that you have Johnson,Rodman and Grant

So Horace is at best a top 5 power forward of the early to mid 90s, the lowest you can put him is 8th

If you think he's not top 10 you're trollling or straight up delusional

[NBAGOAT]

This is the problem with looking at past years through a modern lens. It

[TheCorporation]

Meltdown. You ok babyboi?

Exactly, are you? :oldlol:

You're the queen of meltdowns. Keep using your meds, keep your chemical imbalances more balanced, please and thank you.

[Phoenix]

Exactly, are you? :oldlol:

You're the queen of meltdowns. Keep using your meds, keep your chemical imbalances more balanced, please and thank you.
Another meltdown. Tissue?

[Leviathon1121]

I’ve never seen someone so completely eviscerated before, it’s embarrassing. I don’t think Manny realizes that when you have to spend all of your effort overrating the teammates and underrating the competition of the other guy, you’ve lost the argument already.

[TheCorporation]

Another meltdown. Tissue?

Stay on the meds sweetie

[Phoenix]

1. Barkley
2. Malone
3. Kemp


That's only 3 power forwards that are inarguably better

After that you have Johnson,Rodman and Grant

So Horace is at best a top 5 power forward of the early to mid 90s, the lowest you can put him is 8th

If you think he's not top 10 you're trollling or straight up delusional

So like we agreed on, multiple power forwards are inargubaly better,debatably better, or on his level.

[Manny98]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]This is the problem with looking at past years through a modern lens. It

[RealSkipBayless]

1. Barkley
2. Malone
3. Kemp


That's only 3 power forwards that are inarguably better

After that you have Johnson,Rodman and Grant

So Horace is at best a top 5 power forward of the early to mid 90s, the lowest you can put him is 8th

If you think he's not top 10 you're trollling or straight up delusional
Props for trying to educate this degenerate grocery bagger. :facepalm

[NBAGOAT]

Finally someone that's making sense :applause:

You

[TheCorporation]

Props for trying to educate this degenerate grocery bagger. :facepalm

Phoenix didn't get his McDonald's check this month so he couldn't afford his meds

Please forgive him

[RealSkipBayless]

So like we agreed on, multiple power forwards are inargubaly better,debatably better, or on his level.




Ten power forwards between 91 and 95 better? In no order:



When you pull this you know its over and got embarrassed. :lol

[Manny98]

[QUOTE=Leviathon1121]I

[TheCorporation]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]You

[NBAGOAT]

Horrace Grant had the highest ORtg of any playoff 3rd option EVER

Over a 3 year span...

Ortg is just an efficiency stat lol. Not definitive of player impact at all

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]This is the problem with looking at past years through a modern lens. It

[Phoenix]

Phoenix didn't get his McDonald's check this month so he couldn't afford his meds

Please forgive him

You would know about that wouldnt you. Nobody makes thousands of posts on dozens of accounts, about the same topic for shits and giggles.

[Manny98]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]You

[Manny98]

Problem is what evidence suggests that Horace in place of Coleman leads his team any better? What about Horaces skillset suggests he'd make an effective lead player? We're arguing players who've led their teams, even to mediocrity, over a player that never lead a team as its best player.....anywhere. You can maybe argue that Horace's limitations allowed him to fit within the frame work of a winning structure better because he focused on the dirty work, and Coleman was a headcase, but that's a different conversation and yes, what we NOW know versus the reality of the era in question is coloring the argument. His ability dictates the role he had.
Coleman has never led his team past the first round so who df cares

If you want to win you go with Grant period

[Phoenix]

Coleman has never led his team past the first round so who df cares

If you want to win you go with Grant period

Horace has never led a team period. None of the teams he played on....that made the playoffs.... featured him as its best player. What part of that are you failing to grasp?

Now answer my question. What about Horaces skillset leads to the conclusion that he'd lead a team better than the power forwards you're arguing him against? And no, that doesn't mean googling his vorp stats.

[3ball]

MJ's 3 extra Finals wins >>> Lebron's 3 extra conference finals wins

MJ ruled the league like lebron ruled the east (once he teamed up)

[Manny98]

Horace has never led a team period. None of the teams he played on....that made the playoffs.... featured him as its best player. What part of that are you failing to grasp?

Now answer my question. What about Horaces skillset leads to the conclusion that he'd lead a team better than the power forwards you're arguing him against? And no, that doesn't mean googling his vorp stats.
neither Grant and Coleman can lead a team deep into the playoffs so why does it matter that Coleman at best could carry a team to a 6-8th seed

As a second or third option you would easily take Grant

[NBAGOAT]

Horace has never led a team period. None of the teams he played on....that made the playoffs.... featured him as its best player. What part of that are you failing to grasp?

Now answer my question. What about Horaces skillset leads to the conclusion that he'd lead a team better than the power forwards you're arguing him against? And no, that doesn't mean googling his vorp stats.

Counterpoint, Coleman is not leading a team to a title. Might only be good enough to be a 2nd option on a really well rounded team. If your goal is to win titles not win 45 games, how much value does he really have?

[TheCorporation]

You would know about that wouldnt you. Nobody makes thousands of posts on dozens of accounts, about the same topic for shits and giggles.

You are forgiven.

Now fetch me some fries before they get cold

[Phoenix]

Counterpoint, Coleman is not leading a team to a title. Might only be good enough to be a 2nd option on a really well rounded team. If your goal is to win titles not win 45 games, how much value does he really have?

Most players arent good enough to lead a team to a title. I wasn't making the argument that Coleman could. What Im asking is, we saw how good Derrick Coleman was. Good enough to put up 20/10 on a first round playoff team. What evidence supports that Horace Grant is capable of better?

[Phoenix]

You are forgiven.

Now fetch me some fries before they get cold

You need new material. The Mcdonalds joke is about 10 years past expiration. I'd be happy to fetch you a douche bottle though, I imagine your vag is a little too dry to walk... Oh wait, sorry Wheels :(

[NBAGOAT]

Most players arent good enough to lead a team to a title. I wasn't making the argument that Coleman could. What Im asking is, we saw how good Derrick Coleman was. Good enough to put up 20/10 on a first round playoff team. What evidence supports that Horace Grant is capable of better?

horace grant isnt capable of that. It doesnt mean he cant be a better player however. let's just say he's capable of elevating a 55 win team with enough scoring and already a good defense to a 65 win team. i'm likely exaggerating but you get the idea and not every pf can do that.

some good players wouldnt move the needle on those teams at all. See even wilt getting added to a lakers finals team and them getting worse. That has a lot of positive value. Edit: some would argue more value than someone who can lead a team to 40-45 wins.

Again back to dray since he's the ultimate example of this. He's not capable of leading a bad/mediocre team anywhere. I'm taking him over a lot of players who could however

[Phoenix]

horace grant isnt capable of that. It doesnt mean he cant be a better player however. let's just say he's capable of elevating a 55 win team with enough scoring and already a good defense to a 65 win team. i'm likely exaggerating but you get the idea and not every pf can do that.



It doesnt mean he can be either, though. Thats the thing, any argument for Horace is highly rooted in speculation because there's a complete lack of empirical evidence. Being the lead dog on a team and the focus of the defense is a different level of accountability. We dont know how Horace performs under such conditions. He's played strong roles on teams that featured GOAT players. That doesn't automatically mean if you drop him on a team as the featured player he's doing anything. For one thing, he is way too limited an offensive player, Im talking in terms of skill/talent, to anchor a team. He just wasn't that kind of offensive player.

In order for him to be the best player on the team without being an offensive anchor, he'd need to be a defender/rebounder on the level of a prime Mutombo where you surround him with scoring options. And clearly Grant wasn't on Mutumbos level in either category. Who would you say was the best player on the 2004 Pistons, if you were to pick one? Ben Wallace? He has a credible argument but again, you're talking a historically great defensive anchor surrounded by scorers ( Rip, Chauncey, Sheed).

[NBAGOAT]

It doesnt mean he can be either, though. Thats the thing, any argument for Horace is highly rooted in speculation because there's a complete lack of empirical evidence. Being the lead dog on a team and the focus of the defense is a different level of accountability. We dont know how Horace performs under such conditions. He's played strong roles on teams that featured GOAT players. That doesn't automatically mean if you drop him on a team as the featured player he's doing anything. For one thing, he is way too limited an offensive player, Im talking in terms of skill/talent, to anchor a team. He just wasn't that kind of offensive player.

In order for him to be the best player on the team without being an offensive anchor, he'd need to be a defender/rebounder on the level of a prime Mutombo where you surround him with scoring options. And clearly Grant wasn't on Mutumbos level in either category. Who would you say was the best player on the 2004 Pistons, if you were to pick one? Ben Wallace? He has a credible argument but again, you're talking a historically great defensive anchor surrounded by scorers ( Rip, Chauncey, Sheed).

well that's where we differ. I think a good 2nd or elite 3rd option can be a better player than a bad 1st option. on the flip side, do the bulls with 3 titles from 91-93 with coleman or willis.

I would even consider grant as a 2nd best player on defensive focused teams with one superstar you can completely rely on to help you tread water offensively and you dont want to take shots from. For the 94 knicks and rockets, do you want thorpe, oakley or grant or coleman, willis types on those teams.

tbf, coleman has nice passing for a big. That has value on any team but idk if that's enough.

Edit: I never said grant would be the best player on a team with enough scoring and good defense, he's likely a 3rd or 2nd guy

[Phoenix]

well that's where we differ. I think an elite 2nd or 3rd option can be a better player than a bad 1st option. on the flip side, do the bulls with 3 titles from 91-93 with coleman or willis.

I would even consider grant as a 2nd best player on defensive focused teams with one superstar you can completely rely on to help you tread water offensively and you dont want to take shots from. For the 94 knicks and rockets, do you want thorpe, oakley or grant or coleman, willis types on those teams.

tbf, coleman has nice passing for a big. That has value on any team but idk if that's enough.

Well yeah, but thats case by case and we don't know if its applicable to Horace. Im simply looking at what he was, and wasn't, and drawing conclusions that he wasnt a good enough scorer, or a dominant enough rebounder/defender, to have anchored a competitive team. And by competitive, I mean just making the first round and not making a complete fool of himself.

We are talking situational matters here. Horace may have been a better fit for those Bulls, because he wasnt required to score at elite levels to be effective. He defended, rebounded well and hung around the basket and took advantage of feeds when the defense collapsed on MJ or Pippen attacking the rim. He was a play finisher, or a putback scorer, but not an offensive creator. Not someone you ran plays for when you needed a bucket. Coleman in a vaccum was a more talented player but his skillset and mentality may have been disruptive. So hes a worse player for the Bulls if reduced to a role player,but not a worse player in a vaccuum and had a more diverse skillset to work better on a team built around him, even if thats only amounts to first round roadkill. Those are separates arguments, really.

[NBAGOAT]

Well yeah, but thats case by case and we don't know if its applicable to Horace. Im simply looking at what he was, and wasn't, and drawing conclusions that he wasnt a good enough scorer, or a dominant enough rebounder/defender, to have anchored a competitive team. And by competitive, I mean just making the first round and not making a complete fool of himself.

We are talking situational matters here. Horace may have been a better fit for those Bulls, because he wasnt required to score at elite levels to be effective. He defended, rebounded well and hung around the basket and took advantage of feeds when the defense collapsed on MJ or Pippen attacking the rim. He was a play finisher, or a putback scorer, but not an offensive creator. Not someone you ran plays for when you needed a bucket. Coleman in a vaccum was a more talented player but his skillset and mentality may have been disruptive. So hes a worse player for the Bulls if reduced to a role player,but not a worse player in a vaccuum and had a more diverse skillset to work better on a team built around him, even if thats only amounts to first round roadkill. Those are separates arguments, really.

we just need impact data really which we unfortunately dont have. However I could rank a play finisher who's a defense first guy over someone who's an offensive creator if the offensive creator isnt a very good one and/or a bad defender. It is situational but isnt what matters at end of the day who's better in more situations?

I think one thing that matters that people overlook in these comparisons is a 3rd option for picking neither should be considered. Like if I was the charlotte hornets in 2019 and had to pick coleman or grant, I would definitely consider paying neither and just tank for the year. It's better than winning 30 games with coleman maybe

Dray's not a good comparison because he's an awesome playmaker now and a better defender than grant(closer to that mutombo/gobert type anchor) but people were high on him even in 15 too before he became a great playmaker and was mostly a mediocre spot up guy. I remember he seriously got top 10 arguments and rpm supported that at least.

Edit: going take it up a notch. would you take dray or cousins from 15-17? 20 years ago it's obvious you take cousins. Now I say a majority would've taken draymond. Both are superior versions of grant/coleman so I think the comparison has similarities

[Manny98]

Imagine going to such lengths to discredit Grants greatness :oldlol:

MJ stans are so pathetic

[Phoenix]

Dray's not a good comparison because he's an awesome playmaker now and a better defender than grant(closer to that mutombo/gobert type anchor) but people were high on him even in 15 too before he became a great playmaker and was mostly a mediocre spot up guy. I remember he seriously got top 10 arguments and rpm supported that at least.

Edit: going take it up a notch. would you take dray or cousins from 15-17? 20 years ago it's obvious you take cousins. Now I say a majority would've taken draymond. Both are superior versions of grant/coleman so I think the comparison has similarities

On pure talent Boogie has more of it but its an easy choice to take Dray in most cases. His skills and versatility are more valuable for today's game for the majority of teams. Plus, we have enough evidence to support that Boogie can drop 27 and 12 but have little effect on fielding a competitive team. Dray isn't a lead player type but he can quarterback your defense, provide emotional leadership, and act as a second playmaker, and at one point you respected his 3point shot. Boogie is the player you'd take in a pick up game, Dray is who you'd pick for the NBA game in 2019.

[TheCorporation]

Finals Made

Tier 1
Russell: 12
Kareem: 10
Magic: 9
LeBron: 9

Tier 2
Kobe: 7
Horry: 7

Tier 3
Jordan: 6
Duncan: 6
Curry: 5
Shaq: 5

Jordan is tier 3. Not bad I guess

[Bawkish]

Imagine going to such lengths to discredit Grants greatness :oldlol:

MJ stans are so pathetic

but nowhere near Chris Bosh's or Kevin Love's or Kyrie's greatness

seriously, reading your posts about 90's basketball is like reading a 7 year old child's opinion on world politics

[TheMan]

Imagine going to such lengths to discredit Grants greatness :oldlol:

MJ stans are so pathetic
So the NBA Hall of Fame are MJ stans too since Grant isn't even being considered...such a shame that an all time great is being snubbed by insecure MJ stans at the HOF, amirite?

Also Basketball-Reference has HoGrant's HOF probability currently at 15.2 % :(

Damn insecure MJ stans :rant

[TheMan]

Finals Made

Tier 1
Russell: 12
Kareem: 10
Magic: 9
LeBron: 9

Tier 2
Kobe: 7
Horry: 7

Tier 3
Jordan: 6
Duncan: 6
Curry: 5
Shaq: 5

Jordan is tier 3. Not bad I guess
Most Finals lost...

Jerry West 8
Elgin Baylor 7
LeBron James 6

LeBron actually has a shot at tying West if not surpass him :applause:

Nobody has West nor Baylor in their top 10, as individually great as they were...you need to win more than you've lost apparently...so why exactly does LeBron get a pass for losing twice as many finals as he has won?

Dats it, LeBron falls out of my top 10 GOAT list...gotta ignore recency bias and be consistent.

[Manny98]

So the NBA Hall of Fame are MJ stans too since Grant isn't even being considered...such a shame that an all time great is being snubbed by insecure MJ stans at the HOF, amirite?

Also Basketball-Reference has HoGrant's HOF probability currently at 15.2 % :(

Damn insecure MJ stans :rant
That's still 10x higher than all of the bum power forwards Phoenix was mentioning above Grant so i rest my case

[Manny98]

but nowhere near Chris Bosh's or Kevin Love's or Kyrie's greatness

seriously, reading your posts about 90's basketball is like reading a 7 year old child's opinion on world politics
stfu go back in your retiring home old bitch :roll:

[Phoenix]

That's still 10x higher than all of the bum power forwards Phoenix was mentioning above Grant so i rest my case

I never said those players were HOFers. You specified a range of 91 to 95 and said to list 10 PFs better IN THOSE YEARS. And I did....nothing was mentioned about their HOF credentials. You act like we can't go back a few pages and see exactly what was said.

You got someone like Joe Dumars who won 2 titles, he was never a superstar but was considered a star in his prime..... he retired in 1999 and was a HOF inductee in 2006.

It's been 16 years since Horace Grant retired. Why hasn't 'Grant's greatness' with 4 rings been recognized by the hall yet? Are you saying the Hall of fame are in on the 'act'?

[LAmbruh]

This cat Phoenix is by far the most emotionally butthurt MJ stan of them all


If there's an MJ thread nearby, you can bet ole boy finna be spewing a 50 paragraph meltdown inside :lol

[Phoenix]

If there's an MJ thread nearby, you can bet ole boy finna be spewing a 50 paragraph meltdown inside :lol

And yet, you somehow manage to find your way into every one of them to know I'm here.

You got an answer to my question above, or no?

[Manny98]

This cat Phoenix is by far the most emotionally butthurt MJ stan of them all


If there's an MJ thread nearby, you can bet ole boy finna be spewing a 50 paragraph meltdown inside :lol
This, he pretends to be a objective poster but only a fakkit MJ stan would go to such lengths to defend him as much as he does :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

This, he pretends to be a objective poster but only a fakkit MJ stan would go to such lengths to defend him as much as he does


Only a fakkit Branstain would spend 5 pages talking about the 'greatness of Horace Grant'. Next up, Will Perdue was as good as 86 Walton. FOH with your bullshit.

Nobody on here is without bias. I've never claimed to not be a fan of MJ, and why does anyone here need to deny the players they enjoy? I'm fan of a lot more players, and can speak on a lot more players, than you've shown any ability to. There isn't a single post of yours that isn't about Lebron, or MJ, or players connected to either than you prop up or denigrate based on the argument, but it's never NOT about either of those two for you. You're the jackass with Lebron's face as your avatar. You're the last person to talk about anyone being obsessed with any single player. THE LAST.

The person above said it right, the way you argue basketball is like asking a 7 year old to discuss politics or economics. You're literally the worst poster here, and with Simon and his band of merry alts around that's quite the accomplishment.

[Manny98]

^ Seething :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

^ Seething :oldlol:

Manny, please respond:


It's been 16 years since Horace Grant retired. Why hasn't 'Grant's greatness' with 4 rings been recognized by the hall yet? Are you saying the Hall of fame are in on the 'act'?

All your little 'seething, butthurt, and fakkit' quips are irrelevant. We're talking ball. I asked a question. Waiting...

[LAmbruh]

This, he pretends to be a objective poster but only a fakkit MJ stan would go to such lengths to defend him as much as he does :oldlol:
lmao


you never see his ilk participate in other threads unless it's defending MJ criticism, the most insecure stans of them all


24/7 strict guard patrol :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

lmao


you never see his ilk participate in other threads unless it's defending MJ criticism, the most insecure stans of them all


24/7 strict guard patrol :oldlol:


Say hi to Gus and Dray when you get there.

[TheMan]

Only a fakkit Branstain would spend 5 pages talking about the 'greatness of Horace Grant'. Next up, Will Perdue was as good as 86 Walton. FOH with your bullshit.

Nobody on here is without bias. I've never claimed to not be a fan of MJ, and why does anyone here need to deny the players they enjoy? I'm fan of a lot more players, and can speak on a lot more players, than you've shown any ability to. There isn't a single post of yours that isn't about Lebron, or MJ, or players connected to either than you prop up or denigrate based on the argument, but it's never NOT about either of those two for you. You're the jackass with Lebron's face as your avatar. You're the last person to talk about anyone being obsessed with any single player. THE LAST.

The person above said it right, the way you argue basketball is like asking a 7 year old to discuss politics or economics. You're literally the worst poster here, and with Simon and his band of merry alts around that's quite the accomplishment.
Got 'em

And you are 100% correct, he's an extreme Brantard, laughable that he should feel the need to call anyone out as a stan :roll: Dude does nothing but prop his bf and throw shade at the GOAT.

[E_Stamkos]

Tanking is a strategy retard, it doesn't effect the overall talent like the expansion drafts did

Just accept that your hero benefited from 2 expansion drafts in order to 3-peat

Taking a momentary break from my hiatus just to remind you that you're still a f*ucking idiot.




Resume ISH....

[RealSkipBayless]

This cat Phoenix is by far the most emotionally butthurt MJ stan of them all


If there's an MJ thread nearby, you can bet ole boy finna be spewing a 50 paragraph meltdown inside :lol
True

At least 3ball is funny about it and provides youtube highlights and random stats. :lol

[Phoenix]

Taking a momentary break from my hiatus just to remind you that you're still a f*ucking idiot.




Resume ISH....

:lol

[Phoenix]

True

At least 3ball is funny about it and provides youtube highlights and random stats. :lol

https://media.tenor.com/images/f1f4b3b7c2143b65fe3935ca6ade677c/tenor.gif

The wait for a remotely intelligent post from this odd little queer continues.

[Manny98]

Taking a momentary break from my hiatus just to remind you that you're still a f*ucking idiot.




Resume ISH....
Kawhi left your shit team, eat shit :roll:

[bullettooth]

Only a fakkit Branstain would spend 5 pages talking about the 'greatness of Horace Grant'. Next up, Will Perdue was as good as 86 Walton. FOH with your bullshit.

Nobody on here is without bias. I've never claimed to not be a fan of MJ, and why does anyone here need to deny the players they enjoy? I'm fan of a lot more players, and can speak on a lot more players, than you've shown any ability to. There isn't a single post of yours that isn't about Lebron, or MJ, or players connected to either than you prop up or denigrate based on the argument, but it's never NOT about either of those two for you. You're the jackass with Lebron's face as your avatar. You're the last person to talk about anyone being obsessed with any single player. THE LAST.

The person above said it right, the way you argue basketball is like asking a 7 year old to discuss politics or economics. You're literally the worst poster here, and with Simon and his band of merry alts around that's quite the accomplishment.

Fanny98 about to have an epiphany.....

[Manny98]

Give me Horace Grant over both Chris Bosh and Kevin Love anyday

Grant was that good, probably the most underrated player of all time

It's a shame that Jordan fanboys like Phoenix and TheTranny have to discredit his greatness so much to prop up their childhood hero

[bullettooth]

Give me Horace Grant over both Chris Bosh and Kevin Love anyday

Grant was that good, probably the most underrated player of all time

It's a shame that Jordan fanboys like Phoenix and TheTranny have to discredit his greatness so much to prop up their childhood hero

Do you ever wonder why you're the only one that thinks you're not an idiot?

[superduper]

Give me Horace Grant over both Chris Bosh and Kevin Love anyday

Grant was that good, probably the most underrated player of all time

It's a shame that Jordan fanboys like Phoenix and TheTranny have to discredit his greatness so much to prop up their childhood hero

Jesus could you make it any more embarrassingly blatant that you were still in your dad's bawlsack during the time period you're talking about :facepalm

[andgar923]

Give me Horace Grant over both Chris Bosh and Kevin Love anyday

Grant was that good, probably the most underrated player of all time

It's a shame that Jordan fanboys like Phoenix and TheTranny have to discredit his greatness so much to prop up their childhood hero

:banghead:

[TheCorporation]

Only a fakkit Branstain would spend 5 pages talking about the 'greatness of Horace Grant'. Next up, Will Perdue was as good as 86 Walton. FOH with your bullshit.

Nobody on here is without bias. I've never claimed to not be a fan of MJ, and why does anyone here need to deny the players they enjoy? I'm fan of a lot more players, and can speak on a lot more players, than you've shown any ability to. There isn't a single post of yours that isn't about Lebron, or MJ, or players connected to either than you prop up or denigrate based on the argument, but it's never NOT about either of those two for you. You're the jackass with Lebron's face as your avatar. You're the last person to talk about anyone being obsessed with any single player. THE LAST.

The person above said it right, the way you argue basketball is like asking a 7 year old to discuss politics or economics. You're literally the worst poster here, and with Simon and his band of merry alts around that's quite the accomplishment.


Get this man his meds

[Bawkish]

Give me Horace Grant over both Chris Bosh and Kevin Love anyday

Grant was that good, probably the most underrated player of all time

It's a shame that Jordan fanboys like Phoenix and TheTranny have to discredit his greatness so much to prop up their childhood hero

give me Grant Hill or Antoine Walker or Latrell Sprewell in a finals series and i'll bet you they would never fold like your boyfriend did in 2011

[sportjames23]

I see Manny getting his shit pushed in.

Same as it ever was. :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

Get this man his meds
Get this bitch her douche

[Manny98]

Jesus could you make it any more embarrassingly blatant that you were still in your dad's bawlsack during the time period you're talking about :facepalm
LeBron + Love = 50 wins

Pippen + Grant = 55 wins

So either Pippen is better than LeBron or Grant is better than Love, pick one :confusedshrug:

[LAmbruh]

Manny taking his kids to school :applause:

[bullettooth]

LeBron + Love = 50 wins

Pippen + Grant = 55 wins

So either Pippen is better than LeBron or Grant is better than Love, pick one :confusedshrug:

Pippen is better than LeBron.

Must kill you inside to know that. Have a nice day, Tranny98.

[Phoenix]

Pippen is better than LeBron.

Must kill you inside to know that. Have a nice day, Tranny98.

https://i.imgflip.com/1ocjcz.jpg

[Gileraracer]

LeBron + Love = 50 wins

Pippen + Grant = 55 wins

So either Pippen is better than LeBron or Grant is better than Love, pick one :confusedshrug:

Oh, forgot that it's a 2v2 league

[brutalBBQ]

Grant was that good, probably the most underrated player of all time

Yeah man, only on NBA Jam/SNES.

[Phoenix]

They say Jud Buechler would have been peak Chris Mullin, if not for Jordan ball.

[SouBeachTalents]

A thread asking why a guy "only" won 6 titles in 13 years, and the shit goes 13 pages :oldlol:

It never ceases to amaze me how easily posters fall for the most obvious troll bait here

[superduper]

A thread asking why a guy "only" won 6 titles in 13 years, and the shit goes 13 pages :oldlol:

It never ceases to amaze me how easily posters fall for the most obvious troll bait here

It's not troll they actually believe their spew which is what makes it pathetic.

[Phoenix]

A thread asking why a guy "only" won 6 titles in 13 years, and the shit goes 13 pages :oldlol:

It never ceases to amaze me how easily posters fall for the most obvious troll bait here

Threads like this would get locked if the purpose of this board wasn't to be a trolling cesspit.

[Manny98]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMErM4RdGz8 :bowdown: :bowdown:

Even the YouTube comments agree with me, most underrated player of all time :applause:

We know why he's so underrated ( certain pathetic stanbase making him out to be some common role player) Jordan fans are a ****ing joke this thread proves it

[superduper]

You know you lost in moronic fashion when you say "even the YouTube comments agree with me"

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DaHeezy]

Oh, forgot that it's a 2v2 league

Bwahahahahaha!

But when it's Jordan it's 1v5 6/6

****ing hypocrites

[Leviathon1121]

Bwahahahahaha!

But when it's Jordan it's 1v5 6/6

****ing hypocrites
I don

[Phoenix]

I don’t recall Phoenix saying that, can you point it out please?

I didn't, that was in response to a comment from Gileraracer. That particular argument that Manny represented was so stupid it really wasn't worth the effort addressing. I mean, 95% of what he says falls under that category, but this?

"LeBron + Love = 50 wins

Pippen + Grant = 55 wins

So either Pippen is better than LeBron or Grant is better than Love, pick one"

That's a post so riddled in logical fallacy you just don't waste the energy breaking down.

[Leviathon1121]

I know you didn’t, it was sarcasm because all DaHeezy does is whine about Jordan stans. It doesn’t bother him that the LeBron trolling is twice as bad. :oldlol:

I applaud your attempts at basketball discussion in this thread. I grew up watching the 80’s and 90’s NBA and you told it exactly like it was, some people just don’t want to hear it.

[Phoenix]

Ahh I see. Cool, just thought you were mixing up posters....

[DaHeezy]

[QUOTE=Leviathon1121]I know you didn

[superduper]

Lol, as someone objective no. The Lebron trolling is not as bad. They are trolling, but it's the Jordaneers are the ones getting actual feelings hurt.
That's what makes this whole scenario comical. This whole thread is an example.

Lol Bran stans aren't trolling anything.

They legitimately believe what they say and are more visibly insecure than I've seen any other stanbase ever.

Just stop.

[TheCorporation]

So

*Why did Jordan only make 6 finals in 13 playoff appearances?

[TheMan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMErM4RdGz8 :bowdown: :bowdown:

Even the YouTube comments agree with me, most underrated player of all time :applause:

We know why he's so underrated ( certain pathetic stanbase making him out to be some common role player) Jordan fans are a ****ing joke this thread proves it
The problem here is that you think being a role player is somehow an insult. HoGrant was not a superstar, he wasn't a HOF type player, he wasn't a perennial All Star, he wasn't a franchise player unlike Bosh and Love. Grant never was the first option nor even second option on any of his teams. He was at best third option in his peak years. Offenses never ran through him, his offense was putback offense rebounds and the occasional 15 ft jumper along with filling the lanes on the fastbreak, especially in the Bulls first threepeat. He was pretty good at the defensive end though he usually has trouble vs elite PFs.

Having said all that, he was expendable, replace him with another middle tier PF like Oakley and the Bulls wouldn't skip a beat. He isn't insanely underrated, there isn't a conspiracy to keep him out of the HOF you dimwit...he was never HOF material...it's really that simple but it's obvious you have an agenda and you know damn well you're trolling or you really are that dumb and have a low hoops IQ.

BTW, HoGrant is on record calling MJ the GOAT and would pick him over LeBron with no hesitation.

https://youtu.be/6tkf0GSzJwM

[superduper]

The problem here is that you think being a role player is somehow an insult. HoGrant was not a superstar, he wasn't a HOF type player, he wasn't a perennial All Star, he wasn't a franchise player unlike Bosh and Love. Grant never was the first option nor even second option on any of his teams. He was at best third option in his peak years. Offenses never ran through him, his offense was putback offense rebounds and the occasional 15 ft jumper along with filling the lanes on the fastbreak, especially in the Bulls first threepeat. He was pretty good at the defensive end though he usually has trouble vs elite PFs.

Having said all that, he was expendable, replace him with another middle tier PF like Oakley and the Bulls wouldn't skip a beat. He isn't insanely underrated, there isn't a conspiracy to keep him out of the HOF you dimwit...he was never HOF material...it's really that simple but it's obvious you have an agenda and you know damn well you're trolling or you really are that dumb and have a low hoops IQ.

BTW, HoGrant is on record calling MJ the GOAT and would pick him over LeBron with no hesitation.

https://youtu.be/6tkf0GSzJwM

I'm sorry you had to type all of this to a dude that watches basketball on statsheets and YouTube and then says shit like "see even the YouTube comments agree with me!!" :oldlol:

[TheMan]

So

*Why did Jordan only make 6 finals in 13 playoff appearances?
Why did LeBron only win 3 chips in 17 years?

At that pace, James will tie MJ in titles around 2035 :roll:

[DaHeezy]

Lol Bran stans aren't trolling anything.

They legitimately believe what they say and are more visibly insecure than I've seen any other stanbase ever.

Just stop.

Lol. Jordan stans are the most insecure of any sport. Not just NBA.
Look at how you're still responding in this obvious troll attempt thread.

You guys take the bait so easily and get so easily unnerved

[TheMan]

Lol. Jordan stans are the most insecure of any sport. Not just NBA.
Look at how you're still responding in this obvious troll attempt thread.

You guys take the bait so easily and get so easily unnerved
Bruh, this is troll central, this shit would've been deleted immediately in any other serious NBA message forum like RealGM...it's called trolling them back, no one actually believes that it's embarrassing to win 6 NBA titles nor why did Jordan "only" make 6 Finals in 13 seasons...really have to explain this to you??? :roll:

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Leviathon1121]

Lol. Jordan stans are the most insecure of any sport. Not just NBA.
Look at how you're still responding in this obvious troll attempt thread.

You guys take the bait so easily and get so easily unnerved
You seem pretty unnerved yourself :oldlol:

[TheCorporation]

Why did LeBron only win 3 chips in 17 years?

At that pace, James will tie MJ in titles around 2035 :roll:

Wait so do you think if LeBron faced cupcakes in the finals every year and had all NBA Defenders for his entire career he would lose? :lol

Top 30 SRS teams face din playoffs

LBJ = 7
MJ = 1

Next

[TheMan]

Wait so do you think if LeBron faced cupcakes in the finals every year and had all NBA Defenders for his entire career he would lose? :lol

Top 30 SRS teams face din playoffs

LBJ = 7
MJ = 1

Next
He'd first would have to get there...

MJ's competition to get to the Finals was tougher than the cupcake EC LeBron had the luck of cakewalking through all last decade...MJ faced and beat more 50+ and 60+ win teams JUST TO GET TO THE FINALS. 75% of MJ's playoffs competition was better than LeBron's. LeBron is a victim of his colluding ways, he opened the door for a beta like KD to shamelessly join a title winning team...even at that, LeBron was bested :lol

8 straight Finals don't look so impressive when your best competition was a garbageman Roy Hibbert led team :roll:

[Leviathon1121]

He'd first would have to get there...

MJ's competition to get to the Finals was tougher than the cupcake EC LeBron had the luck of cakewalking through all last decade...MJ faced and beat more 50+ and 60+ win teams JUST TO GET TO THE FINALS. 75% of MJ's playoffs competition was better than LeBron's. LeBron is a victim of his colluding ways, he opened the door for a beta like KD to shamelessly join a title winning team...even at that, LeBron was bested :lol

8 straight Finals don't look so impressive when your best competition was a garbageman Roy Hibbert led team :roll:
When you stop and think about it, what

[DaHeezy]

You seem pretty unnerved yourself :oldlol:

Typical Jordan stan comeback

[Leviathon1121]

Typical Jordan stan comeback
Typical unnerved response.

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=Leviathon1121]When you stop and think about it, what

[superduper]

Wait so do you think if LeBron faced cupcakes in the finals every year and had all NBA Defenders for his entire career he would lose? :lol

Top 30 SRS teams face din playoffs

LBJ = 7
MJ = 1

Next

Thank you for admitting only 25% of the playoffs was hard for Bran compared to 75% of the playoffs for the GOAT :cheers:

[SouBeachTalents]

When you stop and think about it, what’s the best team LeBron faced in the Eastern Conference playoffs, the Magic? And they smoked him WITH homecourt. Off the top of my head I’d take the 92 and 93 Knicks, the 95 and 96 Magic, and the 98 Pacers over that Orlando team. Since colluding wasn’t really a thing at that point, does an organically grown LeBron team, like Pre Miami, get past any of those teams?
Best team he faced is pretty easily the '08 Celtics. Best East team he beat? I'd say either the 2011 Celtics or Bulls

[Phoenix]

Best team he faced is pretty easily the '08 Celtics. Best East team he beat? I'd say either the 2011 Celtics or Bulls

Where would you stack those teams against the aforementioned Knicks and Magic?

[SouBeachTalents]

Where would you stack those teams against the aforementioned Knicks and Magic?
Shaq/Penny Magic were def better :lol The Knicks are closer to those 2011 teams, I'd probably give the nod to the Knicks

[Phoenix]

Shaq/Penny Magic were def better :lol The Knicks are closer to those 2011 teams, I'd probably give the nod to the Knicks

Yeah that's my call too. 98 Pacers were no slouch either. They'd be right up there with the best eastern teams Lebron faced.

[DaHeezy]

Typical unnerved response.

Yes, your response sounded pretty unnerved. Thanks for making that addition

Now here comes the part where you meltdown

[LostCause]

Typical unnerved response.

You're best served just ignoring that troll

He has a weird tactic of saying dumb shit, then saying stuff like "If you respond you're gay/mad" or something similarly stupid


Some weirdo passive aggressive canadian shit I guess

[DaHeezy]

You're best served just ignoring that troll

He has a weird tactic of saying dumb shit, then saying stuff like "If you respond you're gay/mad" or something similarly stupid


Some weirdo passive aggressive canadian shit I guess

Kind of like what you're doing now?

Lol. I bet you're still emotionally strained from that last exchange where you tried to bait some fictitious debate. Ironic you use passive aggressive but would post that

[bullettooth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMErM4RdGz8 :bowdown: :bowdown:

Even the YouTube comments agree with me, most underrated player of all time :applause:

Someone called you out in the comments :lol

[Leviathon1121]

Yes, your response sounded pretty unnerved. Thanks for making that addition

Now here comes the part where you meltdown
This guy is so angry :roll:

[Manny98]

The problem here is that you think being a role player is somehow an insult. HoGrant was not a superstar, he wasn't a HOF type player, he wasn't a perennial All Star, he wasn't a franchise player unlike Bosh and Love. Grant never was the first option nor even second option on any of his teams. He was at best third option in his peak years. Offenses never ran through him, his offense was putback offense rebounds and the occasional 15 ft jumper along with filling the lanes on the fastbreak, especially in the Bulls first threepeat. He was pretty good at the defensive end though he usually has trouble vs elite PFs.

Having said all that, he was expendable, replace him with another middle tier PF like Oakley and the Bulls wouldn't skip a beat. He isn't insanely underrated, there isn't a conspiracy to keep him out of the HOF you dimwit...he was never HOF material...it's really that simple but it's obvious you have an agenda and you know damn well you're trolling or you really are that dumb and have a low hoops IQ.

BTW, HoGrant is on record calling MJ the GOAT and would pick him over LeBron with no hesitation.

https://youtu.be/6tkf0GSzJwM
Do you think i care that Grant thinks MJ is the GOAT?

Im just showing appreciation for one of the most underrated players of all time since you MJ stans want to shit on every single teammate he had.

I don't actually have a agenda it just pisses me off when guys like you and Phoenix act like Horace Grant wasn't even a top 10 power forward in his prime, that's just ****ing ridiculous

[DaHeezy]

This guy is so angry :roll:

Deflecting anger with rolling laughs. Yup here's the meltdown

[TheCorporation]

He'd first would have to get there...

MJ's competition to get to the Finals was tougher than the cupcake EC LeBron had the luck of cakewalking through all last decade...MJ faced and beat more 50+ and 60+ win teams JUST TO GET TO THE FINALS. 75% of MJ's playoffs competition was better than LeBron's. LeBron is a victim of his colluding ways, he opened the door for a beta like KD to shamelessly join a title winning team...even at that, LeBron was bested :lol

8 straight Finals don't look so impressive when your best competition was a garbageman Roy Hibbert led team :roll:

MJ had what, 8 years of an all defensive player on his team whlie LeBron had 2?

AND LeBron's competition was way harder than any team MJ beat. So again...

Next

[Leviathon1121]

Deflecting anger with rolling laughs. Yup here's the meltdown
I have nothing to be angry about bud. Life is good when your guy is the overwhelming consensus GOAT. You and I both know it’s killing you that there is nothing you can do about it, cheers! :cheers:

[DaHeezy]

[QUOTE=Leviathon1121]I have nothing to be angry about bud. Life is good when your guy is the overwhelming consensus GOAT. You and I both know it

[LAmbruh]

daheezy running laps around insecure MJ stans per usual :applause: :lol

[TheCorporation]

daheezy running laps around insecure MJ stans per usual :applause: :lol

King Da Heezy comes thru and shuts these kids down effortlessly

:lol

A beautiful sight to behold

[LAmbruh]

King Da Heezy comes thru and shuts these kids down effortlessly

:lol

A beautiful sight to behold

You
Manny
Daheezy


= Or_an stans WORST nightmare

[Gileraracer]

Many insecure Lebron stans in here :lol

[nayte]

Haha great thread. I love the Stan wars.

[Leviathon1121]

Who's says I'm denying he's GOAT? What's clear is your insecurities about it. Stans like you will die an early death with all that anxiety. No sweat of my back.
Explain? I hardly post in any of their threads, and when I do it

[DaHeezy]

[QUOTE=Leviathon1121]Explain? I hardly post in any of their threads, and when I do it

[TheMan]

MJ had what, 8 years of an all defensive player on his team whlie LeBron had 2?

AND LeBron's competition was way harder than any team MJ beat. So again...

Next
Yeah, not gonna waste my time trying to have an honest intelligent hoops debate when you spew blatant lies. It's a fact that LeBron faced better teams in the Finals, no one is debating that...OTOH, MJ faced better competition in the EC back when it wasn't the joke it became in the 00s and 10s. There are graphs showing how bad the EC became compared to the WC during those decades, especially in the last decade. It's a fact that MJ beat more 50 and 60 wins teams than LeBron...twist it all you want, those are facts.

[And1AllDay]

Yeah, not gonna waste my time trying to have an honest intelligent hoops debate when you spew blatant lies. It's a fact that LeBron faced better teams in the Finals, no one is debating that...OTOH, MJ faced better competition in the EC back when it wasn't the joke it became in the 00s and 10s. There are graphs showing how bad the EC became compared to the WC during those decades, especially in the last decade. It's a fact that MJ beat more 50 and 60 wins teams than LeBron...twist it all you want, those are facts.

but why did mike have an all nba player 8 years and bran only 2 ?

[Bigsmoke]

Look at these excuse :roll:

"MJ had no help" :cry: :roll:

When the bulls signed Rodman and Horace Grant went down for the Magic, how did the series play out the very next season?

[greymatter]

A better question is why --still as the best player on his team-- he failed to lead his team to a playoff berth in an incredibly weak eastern conference for two straight seasons where the #1 seed only had 50 and 52 Ws.

[sportjames23]

A better question is why --still as the best player on his team-- he failed to lead his team to a playoff berth in an incredibly weak eastern conference for two straight seasons where the #1 seed only had 50 and 52 Ws.

You

[Manny98]

A better question is why --still as the best player on his team-- he failed to lead his team to a playoff berth in an incredibly weak eastern conference for two straight seasons where the #1 seed only had 50 and 52 Ws.
No Pippen to save him :(

[Bawkish]

No Pippen to save him :(

why can't Lebron win a title without James Jones?

[And1AllDay]

why is everyone scared to speak up on normal questions

sounds like a mikey fan disease

[SpaceJam2]

why is everyone scared to speak up on normal questions

sounds like a mikey fan disease


They are ALWAYS shook about facts

[And1AllDay]

No Pippen to save him :(

no pip, no chip

we all know dis