Only MJ could be a hot-doggin-it scoring champion and dominant baller.....

[3ball]

while winning a championship... or in an organized, Spurs-like system

Everyone else in history had to take a step back and not be the league's top scorer in the years they won the title

Durant, Lebron, and Kobe averaged 25-28 ppg in the years they won the title, compared to 31-35 in their peak-scoring years that included scoring titles

MJ's the only guy that didn't have to step back that much... He's the only guy that didn't have to become less than the top scorer to win... His normal game was sufficiently complete and fundamentally-sound that it fit into the team concept without altering it or "stepping back"

that's how we know MJ's style was optimal - he fit THAT much scoring into a championship framework - his game essentially was championship basketball (see the all-time leaders in playoff ppg - MJ stands alone at 33.5, while everyone else is bunched up at 27-29, a full tier below)
...

[TheBranStan]

:sleeping

[Uncle Drew]

Fixed the OP
Did you? All I see is rubbish.

[3ball]

Did you? All I see is rubbish.
Why did Durant, Kobe and lebron have to "step back" from being the league's top scorer and score a lot less in their championship years?

Why did they have to "clean up" their game so much to win, that they couldn't be the league's top scorer anymore?

[sdot_thadon]

That boy tripping all over his own feet yet again. Now the other players had to "take a step back" to win and Mj didn't because he "fit" better. This goes directly in conflict with the Mj "was forced to score this much to win" bs you've been shit staining the walls of ish with. Mj scored because that was most important to him. Yes he went above and beyond a few times to do so, but really all time greats just do that sort of thing. You make too many threads when you stop remembering previous arguments you've made.

[3ball]

That boy tripping all over his own feet yet again. Now the other players had to "take a step back" to win and Mj didn't because he "fit" better. This goes directly in conflict with the Mj "was forced to score this much to win" bs you've been shit staining the walls of ish with. Mj scored because that was most important to him. Yes he went above and beyond a few times to do so, but really all time greats just do that sort of thing. You make too many threads when you stop remembering previous arguments you've made.
No it doesn't; both can be true

MJ's game was better and therefore "fit" championship style better, while his team also needed him to score more than anyone ever

Only MJ could give a team scoring champion help without sacrificing teamwork - everyone else had step back their game below scoring champion to have great teamwork and win (lesser burden)

[sdot_thadon]

No it doesn't; both can be true

MJ's game was better and therefore "fit" championship style better, while his team also needed him to score more than anyone ever

Only MJ could give a team scoring champion help without sacrificing teamwork - everyone else had step back their game below scoring champion to have great teamwork and win (lesser burden)
Yeah it actually does becuase it shits on the stupidity you promote. You say in one argument the other guys aren't capable of that sort of scoring and in this one you say they step back.

Reminds me of that kblaze post: 1st i was like.....now I'm like. :lol

[3ball]

Yeah it actually does becuase it shits on the stupidity you promote. You say in one argument the other guys aren't capable of that sort of scoring and in this one you say they step back.

Reminds me of that kblaze post: 1st i was like.....now I'm like. :lol
They aren't capable of Jordan's scoring levels, or being the league's top scorer while winning a ring - they aren't capable of Jordan's championship burden (being scoring champ)

These former scoring champs all sacrificed below scoring champion level to win and have enough teamwork... Only MJ was good enough to be scoring champ while still having sufficient teamwork to win

Again, only MJ was good enough to have his balling-out, hot dogging, scoring champion years while winning rings with championship teamwork.. everyone else had their balling out years without winning rings and had to sacrifice below scoring champion level to finally win

[NBAGOAT]

at some point you gotta acknowledge someone who's versatile but not a great scorer like pippen is a great fit with mj. One person doesnt singlehandedly make his team have great teamwork.

The warriors had great teamwork but had some chemistry issues once kd joined and the other stars needed to sacrifice scoring. The spurs had great teamwork but once in awhile had trouble acclimating guys like richard jefferson and stephen jackson who needed shot attempts and didnt get them.

I think it's asinine for example to think if jordan replaced ritchmond on run tmc someone in their new big 3 isnt sacrificing shot attempts. With your scoring centric pov, you would say that team is a tier better than the bulls but i'm not sure and diminishing returns is one problem with that potential team.

It doesnt matter how talented you are, an offense is not scoring much more over 120pts/game even in the offensive friendly era right now and that's a fact too many people overlook when they add talent.

P.S only 22 teams have scored over 120 and the vast majority are from the 60s or the 80s nuggets lol. https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=team_totals&lg_id=NBA&order_by=pts_per_g

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

"Hot-doggin-it"

3bot makes every Jordan topic insufferable :lol

[3ball]

At some point you gotta acknowledge someone who's versatile but not a great scorer like pippen is a great fit with mj.


Wait a sec ... It was somehow easier for MJ to win because he had to score MORE???

Is that what you're saying?

So why didn't other scoring champs win a ring that year? Why only MJ? And 6 times ....

Ultimately, why did everyone else have to sacrifice below scoring champion level to win? How come only MJ had his hot dog, scoring champion years WHILE winning rings?





One person doesnt singlehandedly make his team have great teamwork.


But if MJ played like Lebron or CP3, the Bulls triangle wouldn't function and the Bulls wouldn't have been a champion

That's the whole point - the non-ball-dominant wings listed in the OP win a lot more than the PG's






The warriors had great teamwork but had some chemistry issues once kd joined and the other stars needed to sacrifice scoring


Klay's scoring remained at 21-22 ppg despite being 3rd option, while love and Bo's were 15 ppg guys

Lebron's ball-dominance simply kills anyone that isn't already a great catch-and-shoot player

Otoh, mj's scoring fits into championship basketball better than anyone in history - 6 rings as the scoring champ proves that

[3ball]

"Hot-doggin-it"

3bot makes every Jordan topic insufferable :lol
Everyone else had their hot-doggin', balling-out, scoring champion years WITHOUT winning rings.. they had to pull back below scoring champion level to finally win

only MJ was good enough to have his balling-out, scoring champion years while winning rings with championship teamwork.. his peers had to sacrifice below scoring champion level to finally win and have sufficient teamwork

MJ didn't have to sacrifice the scoring title or that kind of balling-out brand - his brand WAS championship ball, so he could be a balling-out scoring champ and still win
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Everyone else had their hot-doggin', balling-out, scoring champion years WITHOUT winning rings.. they had to pull back below scoring champion level to finally win

only MJ was good enough to have his balling-out, scoring champion years while winning rings with championship teamwork.. his peers had to sacrifice below scoring champion level to finally win and have sufficient teamwork

MJ didn't have to sacrifice the scoring title thst kind of balling-out brand - his brand WAS championship ball, so he could be a balling-out scoring champ and still win
.

So which part of the quote was already posted?

Jordan was amazing. We get it. But you're literally repeating the same thing, just changing the thread title :oldlol:

[NBAGOAT]

Wait a sec ... It was somehow easier for MJ to win because he had to score MORE???

Is that what you're saying?

So why didn't other scoring champs win a ring that year? Why only MJ? And 6 times ....

Ultimately, why did everyone else have to sacrifice below scoring champion level to win? How come only MJ had his hot dog, scoring champion years WHILE winning rings?



But if MJ played like Lebron or CP3, the Bulls triangle wouldn't function and the Bulls wouldn't have been a champion

That's the whole point - the non-ball-dominant wings listed in the OP win a lot more than the PG's




Klay's scoring remained at 21-22 ppg despite being 3rd option, while love and Bo's were 15 ppg guys

Lebron's ball-dominance simply kills anyone that isn't already a great catch-and-shoot player


Otoh, mj's scoring fits into championship basketball better than anyone in history - 6 rings as the scoring champ proves that

First forget the ball dominant lebron/cp3 types, this is a different thread from the one asking about ideal player types.

Point 1: never said it was easier for mj. Just said he was on the type of roster where he could score a lot and the other guys wouldnt need to sacrifice that much.

Point 2: klay's actually had to play slightly more minutes with gs' worse depth with kd teams. He peaked at 33pts/100 in 2015 and went as low as 28pts/100 in 18. Not bosh/love lvl(again this thread isnt about comparing mj to curry or lebron so idc about that) but a meaningful dropoff. Dray peaked at 19pts/100 and went as low as 11 last year, he's sacrificed at least.

Little bit of a contradiction here too. You say the one type of player that can maintain his stats well when his team adds a ball dominant/high scoring type is a spot up shooter. klay gets plenty of his offense off spot ups.

Point 3: are you sure about your general point about mj's style being the best fit with championship talent. People always cite how much talent magic and bird had on their best teams, most agree more than mj. shouldnt both get tons of credit for making those teams works pretty seamlessly only not winning titles because of the other team pretty much? Even 4th options like scott/ainge would get a decent share of shot attempts too.

The superior RS success of the Bulls is a good argument for mj but is mitigated some by the fact that everyone knows those teams were coasting because they could afford to(especially showtime).

People also overlook magic had some of the best years of his career when kareem was a role player/retired and carried those teams to great team success with not as much talent as some think(mainly worthy/scott as help). Bird's early year celtic teams who were consistent 60+win teams were not like the mid 80's celtics either. Parish was his only supporting star(idrc that archibald was an all star by name). Both supporting casts have an argument for being worse than even the 1st 3peat Bulls.

So both guys shown they can carry good rosters to titles and excel on stacked rosters with scorers. How are they not ideal championship players.

[And1AllDay]

which was his best ring thanks

[3ball]

First forget the ball dominant lebron/cp3 types, this is a different thread from the one asking about ideal player types.

Point 1: never said it was easier for mj. Just said he was on the type of roster where he could score a lot and the other guys wouldnt need to sacrifice that much.


^^^^ :rolleyes:... wtf.... just say it bro..... mj had weak offensive help - that's the "type of roster" he had... its better to admit that than deflect with the bolded above

And a lot of guys have weak offensive help where the star can shoot and score a lot like you said - that's nearly every scoring champ in history infact - but only MJ won rings in that capacity as the scoring champ..

that's my point - only MJ could score that much with championship teamwork.. everyone else had to scale back their scoring below scoring champion level to win.. except mj, because his game WAS championship ball.. that's how perfect he played.. Dean Smith-groomed.. fundamentally-perfect superathlete

And btw, if MJ had weak offensive help, that means he carried those bulls teams - he's the only guy to win multiple rings as a 1-man show on offense.





Point 2: klay's actually had to play slightly more minutes with gs' worse depth with kd teams. He peaked at 33pts/100 in 2015 and went as low as 28pts/100 in 18. Not bosh/love lvl(again this thread isnt about comparing mj to curry or lebron so idc about that) but a meaningful dropoff. Dray peaked at 19pts/100 and went as low as 11 last year, he's sacrificed at least.


So Klay dropped off basically nothing alongside Durant from 16' to 17'.. thanks for confirming..

that's nothing compared to the drop-offs of Love/Bosh alongside Lebron - they were third options just like Klay, Worthy and Parish...

Basically, its a good thing that Bosh/Love established a good rep BEFORE joining lebron, because otherwise, they'd never make HOF careers as perennial 3rd options, ala Parish/Worthy/Klay





Little bit of a contradiction here too. You say the one type of player that can maintain his stats well when his team adds a ball dominant/high scoring type is a spot up shooter. klay gets plenty of his offense off spot ups.


And Lebron none.. that's the point... If lebron himself could be the "shooter" that he wants everyone else to be, then he could fit with anyone, from rondo to Klay.. but he lacks an off-ball skillset and is therefore inferior to guys like MJ, Kawhi, Kobe, Bird and KD





Point 3: are you sure about your general point about mj's style being the best fit with championship talent. People always cite how much talent magic and bird had on their best teams, most agree more than mj. shouldnt both get tons of credit for making those teams works pretty seamlessly only not winning titles because of the other team pretty much? Even 4th options like scott/ainge would get a decent share of shot attempts too.


Yes, that means MJ should get more credit for achieving goat dynasties with less help





The superior RS success of the Bulls is a good argument for mj but is mitigated some by the fact that everyone knows those teams were coasting because they could afford to(especially showtime).

People also overlook magic had some of the best years of his career when kareem was a role player/retired and carried those teams to great team success with not as much talent as some think(mainly worthy/scott as help). Bird's early year celtic teams who were consistent 60+win teams were not like the mid 80's celtics either. Parish was his only supporting star(idrc that archibald was an all star by name). Both supporting casts have an argument for being worse than even the 1st 3peat Bulls.

So both guys shown they can carry good rosters to titles and excel on stacked rosters with scorers. How are they not ideal championship players.
Curry won 70 with Klay/Dray, while lebron couldn't even win 60 with Kyrie/Love

The talent was the same, but Curry was obviously playing a vastly superior way that allowed a vastly better team.

So we know Lebron isn't an ideal championship player because his style results in weaker teams in general.. his ball-dominant, CP3 skillset and brand is 2-6 versus the Warriors/Spurs/Mavs, including 2 sweeps and 2 record defeats..

Accordingly, his style isn't championship-caliber, just like other ball-dominators Nash, Westbrook, etc.. lebron only won because he colluded for the extra talent this style needs to offset it's weaker teamwork

[tpols]

Why did Durant, Kobe and lebron have to "step back" from being the league's top scorer and score a lot less in their championship years?

Why did they have to "clean up" their game so much to win, that they couldn't be the league's top scorer anymore?


are you using regular season or playoff stats?

[NBAGOAT]

^^^^ :rolleyes:... wtf.... just say it bro..... mj had weak offensive help - that's the "type of roster" he had... its better to admit that than deflect with the bolded above

And a lot of guys have weak offensive help where the star can shoot and score a lot like you said - that's nearly every scoring champ in history infact - but only MJ won rings in that capacity as the scoring champ..

that's my point - only MJ could score that much with championship teamwork.. everyone else had to scale back their scoring below scoring champion level to win.. except mj, because his game WAS championship ball.. that's how perfect he played.. Dean Smith-groomed.. fundamentally-perfect superathlete

And btw, if MJ had weak offensive help, that means he carried those bulls teams - he's the only guy to win multiple rings as a 1-man show on offense.



So Klay dropped off basically nothing alongside Durant from 16' to 17'.. thanks for confirming..

that's nothing compared to the drop-offs of Love/Bosh alongside Lebron - they were third options just like Klay, Worthy and Parish...

Basically, its a good thing that Bosh/Love established a good rep BEFORE joining lebron, because otherwise, they'd never make HOF careers as perennial 3rd options, ala Parish/Worthy/Klay



And Lebron none.. that's the point... If lebron himself could be the "shooter" that he wants everyone else to be, then he could fit with anyone, from rondo to Klay.. but he lacks an off-ball skillset and is therefore inferior to guys like MJ, Kawhi, Kobe, Bird and KD



Yes, that means MJ should get more credit for achieving goat dynasties with less help



Curry won 70 with Klay/Dray, while lebron couldn't even win 60 with Kyrie/Love

The talent was the same, but Curry was obviously playing a vastly superior way that allowed a vastly better team.

So we know Lebron isn't an ideal championship player because his style results in weaker teams in general.. his ball-dominant, CP3 skillset and brand is 2-6 versus the Warriors/Spurs/Mavs, including 2 sweeps and 2 record defeats..

Accordingly, his style isn't championship-caliber, just like other ball-dominators Nash, Westbrook, etc.. lebron only won because he colluded for the extra talent this style needs to offset it's weaker teamwork

well not great among championship teams, sure i'll say it. Guys like magic, bird, lebron, shaq, maybe kobe etc have had better offensive help. However offense is not just scoring lol, for one something like rodman's oreb during the rs is enough of an outlier to have some impact. Playmaking ofc is huge which you always gloss over.

Since i'm the one who brought up magic/bird I would challenge it for some of their rosters however. Is Parish/Maxwell/Archibald or Worthy/Scott/ac green really even better than pippen/grant/armstrong or pippen/kukoc/rodman offensively? This ofc isnt acknowledging the defensive end where the bulls are better imo. Again, people overlook magic/bird dont have super stacked offensive rosters every year.

That's not even my main point however, you're basically wrongly dismissing the idea of diminishing returns not acknowledging mj or his teammates have to scale back on certain rosters too. You just reach a limit of how much a team can score.

Again answer this do you truly believe mullin can maintain 26ppg and hardaway can maintain 23/10 if you replace ritchmond with mj who also doesnt scale back as you claim he wouldnt meaning he wins the scoring title and gets 5-6apg. upgrading from richmond to mj doesnt mean gs scores 10 more ppg, that's not how basketball works

5pts/100 is much more than nothing. I'm not going discuss lebron too much because that's not the point of this thread and why I'll ignore the rest of your irrelevant response. However, bosh dropped roughly 8pts/100, if 5 is nothing 8 is small then by your criteria...

Edit: since you brought up the curry point multiple times now, the response is simple. Rs curry in 15 and 16 at least is clearly just a superior player to rs cle lebron(you underrate draymond too tbf). even now, people rightly are considering him for best player in the league

[tpols]

Curry won 70 with Klay/Dray, while lebron couldn't even win 60 with Kyrie/Love

The talent was the same, but Curry was obviously playing a vastly superior way that allowed a vastly better team.



:biggums:

do you think dray could average 26/14 All NBA, and all star on a team like the twolves?

:wtf:

and kyrie is better than klay too look what he did to him in 2016.

[RRR3]

“**** defense”-tpols

[3ball]

are you using regular season or playoff stats?
Regular season - that's the only capacity I've heard the term "scoring champ" used

Probably because that's when everyone plays the same teams and comp, and 82 games

I remember the years that Durant, Westbrook, AI, Kobe Tmac, etc won their scoring titles - those were their balling out years ... But ultimately, only MJ could extend his hot-doggin', scoring champion days into his championship days - everyone else like Durant, Kobe, etc had to scale back below scoring champion level ballin' to win as a team... Again, except MJ, whose game was championship (near-perfect, if not perfect)

[Turbo Slayer]

3ball, 1 problem with you. You are way too biased on Lebron. Lebron is in everyone top ten. Now granted, Lebron is NOT better than Jordan and only thrives in his system. Shame because Bron is my favorite player. 3ball, you are right in some regard but try being less biased. Just a general tip. Wish you all the luck, 3ball. See ya. :applause:

[3ball]

well not great among championship teams, sure i'll say it. Guys like magic, bird, lebron, shaq, maybe kobe etc have had better offensive help. However offense is not just scoring lol, for one something like rodman's oreb during the rs is enough of an outlier to have some impact. Playmaking ofc is huge which you always gloss over.


I'm always pointing out that MJ led the bulls in apg and assist% for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen (88', 89', 90', 91', 93', 97').

So he led the Bulls in assists, while carrying the goat scoring load (10-20 ppg more than his 2nd option in Finals series wins, versus 2-5 for Lebron over his 2nd option)





Since i'm the one who brought up magic/bird I would challenge it for some of their rosters however. Is Parish/Maxwell/Archibald or Worthy/Scott/ac green really even better than pippen/grant/armstrong or pippen/kukoc/rodman offensively? This ofc isnt acknowledging the defensive end where the bulls are better imo. Again, people overlook magic/bird dont have super stacked offensive rosters every year.


Are you serious?

Tiny is the only guy to lead the league in ppg and apg if I'm not mistaken

Maxwell was Finals MVP

And regarding the 91' Lakers, you left off Sam Perkins and Vlade Divac, who were the best players after the magic/mj and worthy/pippen matchups - they both averaged 17/10 in the Finals and were highly skilled.. Now add Scott on top of that? And AC Green? It's over





That's not even my main point however, you're basically wrongly dismissing the idea of diminishing returns not acknowledging mj or his teammates have to scale back on certain rosters too. You just reach a limit of how much a team can score.

Richmond with mj who also doesnt scale back as you claim he wouldnt meaning he wins the scoring title and gets 5-6apg. upgrading from richmond to mj doesnt mean gs scores 10 more ppg, that's not how basketball works


Similar to Pippen, Hardaway and Mullin would see their assists increase because of MJ's presence as a goat off-ball player and assist target.

Secondly, Hardaway/Mullin wouldn't see material scoring decrease just like Pippen and Grant didn't because the lesser role players would all see tiny reductions as well - that's what happened with those Bulls - everyone saw a tiny reduction, rather than lebron completely nullifying the team's 3rd best player (Love/Bosh)..

MJ would never shut down a good player like Lebron's game does .. heck, Orlando Woolridge got 23 ppg next to him and Oakley 15.. meanwhile, lebron reduced Jamison from 22/10 to 15/8... Hughes, Hood, and Rose disappeared.. the carnage of lebron's narrow skillset is great and wide





Edit: since you brought up the curry point multiple times now, the response is simple. Rs curry in 15 and 16 at least is clearly just a superior player to rs cle lebron (you underrate draymond too tbf). even now, people rightly are considering him for best player in the league


Due to his superior-caliber skillset to ball-dominators like Cp3/Lebron, I'd argue Curry > Lebron period, if not for the size difference that Curry only recently fully made up with his superior style and play

But any great player that has Curry's off-ball tendency but better size (Kobe, Bird, Kawhi, MJ and more), I put over lebron.. and easily

[NBAGOAT]

I'm always pointing out that MJ led the bulls in apg and assist% for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen (88', 89', 90', 91', 93', 97').

So he led the Bulls in assists, while carrying the goat scoring load (10-20 ppg more than his 2nd option in Finals series wins, versus 2-5 for Lebron over his 2nd option)



Are you serious?

Tiny is the only guy to lead the league in ppg and apg if I'm not mistaken

Maxwell was Finals MVP

And regarding the 91' Lakers, you left off Sam Perkins and Vlade Divac, who were the best players after the magic/mj and worthy/pippen matchups - they both averaged 17/10 in the Finals and were highly skilled.. Now add Scott on top of that? And AC Green? It's over



Similar to Pippen, Hardaway and Mullin would see their assists increase because of MJ's presence as a goat off-ball player and assist target.

Secondly, Hardaway/Mullin wouldn't see material scoring decrease just like Pippen and Grant didn't because the lesser role players would all see tiny reductions as well - that's what happened with those Bulls - everyone saw a tiny reduction, rather than lebron completely nullifying the team's 3rd best player (Love/Bosh)..

MJ would never shut down a good player like Lebron's game does .. heck, Orlando Woolridge got 23 ppg next to him and Oakley 15.. meanwhile, lebron reduced Jamison from 22/10 to 15/8... Hughes, Hood, and Rose disappeared.. the carnage of lebron's narrow skillset is great and wide



Due to his superior-caliber skillset to ball-dominators like Cp3/Lebron, I'd argue Curry > Lebron period, if not for the size difference that Curry only recently fully made up with his superior style and play

But any great player that has Curry's off-ball tendency but better size (Kobe, Bird, Kawhi, MJ and more), I put over lebron.. and easily

tiny was a 13-14/8 guy with boston obviously not the same player. Came off an achilles injury and over 30. I agree 91 is good, vlade and divac werent on magic's teams every year and I didnt list them because I was looking at 90. Also wat about 89 when kareem wasnt event playing half the game. small problem with 91 is worthy and scott had declined by that year too compared to earlier teams.

I disagree. the warriors were not built like the bulls. So much of their scoring was from their top 3. 62.1/110 pts came from mj, pippen, grant. 72.5/116.6 came from mullin, richmond, hardaway. Ofc that percentage goes up with mj but there's less role player shot attempts to steal from.

Orlando and oakley put up stats because they were the 2nd option, they are irrelevant to your point. Yes ik you'll pivot to citing how bad those early Bulls teams were, I wont dispute that at all but it's irrelevant here.

You cite curry's style of play but really he was also just a better offensive player than bron during the rs. Kd was not as ball dominant as bron either but bron was better in 16. You're overstating the style of play factor.

I think you're just wrong if you think kawhi is better than peak lebron but like most of your post, a discussion for another thread.

[3ball]

3ball, 1 problem with you. You are way too biased on Lebron. Lebron is in everyone top ten. Now granted, Lebron is NOT better than Jordan and only thrives in his system. Shame because Bron is my favorite player. 3ball, you are right in some regard but try being less biased. Just a general tip. Wish you all the luck, 3ball. See ya. :applause:
Wilt and MJ can argue stats over lebron

Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Magic, Russell, and MJ can argue rings

Bird can argue skills over everyone

That's 9 guys with easy cases (rings, stats or skills).. so the highest i could put lebron is #10... But then I value the KD/Kawhi/Dirk/Curry off-ball and shooting skillsets, so he could be outside the top 15 for me all told

[tpols]

Regular season - that's the only capacity I've heard the term "scoring champ" used

Probably because that's when everyone plays the same teams and comp, and 82 games

I remember the years that Durant, Westbrook, AI, Kobe Tmac, etc won their scoring titles - those were their balling out years ... But ultimately, only MJ could extend his hot-doggin', scoring champion days into his championship days - everyone else like Durant, Kobe, etc had to scale back below scoring champion level ballin' to win as a team... Again, except MJ, whose game was championship (near-perfect, if not perfect)


kobe improved his ppg in the playoffs for his B2B rings quite signifigantly.

26 ppg to 30 ppg... w/ injuries. So he was still at max superstar output when it counted.

Durant dropped 35 ppg on 70 TS (GOAT volume / efficiency) for his two rings in the only series that mattered.

so he was "hot doggin" it when winning too...

[3ball]

Tiny was a 13-14/8 guy with boston obviously not the same player. Came off an achilles injury and over 30.


Tiny destroys BJ or Paxson





I disagree. the warriors were not built like the bulls. So much of their scoring was from their top 3. 62.1/110 pts came from mj, pippen, grant. 72.5/116.6 came from mullin, richmond, hardaway. Ofc that percentage goes up with mj but there's less role player shot attempts to steal from


But MJ would steal them and make sure his sidekicks were eating enough for the team to win..

That's how MJ impacted a team - everyone got to play their game, with minimal reductions in PPG across the board - this is better than lebron basically nullifying an all-pro player, turning a Warriors-like Big 3 into a Big 2

So again, Tim Hardaway and Mullin would see tiny or no decrease in scoring, while seeing an increase in their assists





You cite curry's style of play but really he was also just a better offensive player than bron during the rs. Kd was not as ball dominant as bron either but bron was better in 16.

You're overstating the style of play factor.


Curry and Kawhi flirted with 70 wins in 2016..

There's no excuse for lebron not doing the same..... Except that Lebron's teams aren't capable of the ball movement that makes the Warriors and Spurs the best teams of this era.. So he's 2-5 against these teams, including 2 sweeps and 2 record blowouts..

His teams perform the same way CP3 or Nash teams performed, except they didn't get the free trip to the Finals from a colluded weak East like he did.

Replace Curry with lebron-ball and Draymond's game disappears or might get offered for AD... :facepalm .. the Warriors' league-leading ball movement would be gone, and lebron would need more help quickly.. It would be a disaster

[tpols]

people cant comprehend long term butterfly effects...

they dont understand intangibles.

most can only operate in hindsight. they parrot obvious occurences with no rebuttal for causation.

[NBAGOAT]

people cant comprehend long term butterfly effects...

they dont understand intangibles.

most can only operate in hindsight. they parrot obvious occurences with no rebuttal for causation.

I get where you’re coming from but it’s speculative. Like how is 3ball sure lebron/dray a disaster. That would have some problems on offense but could be top tier defensively.

Curry does get a little too much Duncan type praise however. Duncan is not the main reason Parker/ginobli developed same for curry and dray/klay even with the late draft pick stuff. It’s disrespectful to the work those guys put in themselves and I tend to default to crediting a coach if I’m going credit someone else for a players development

[StrongLurk]

Haven't ready any posts in this thread but I'm sure 3Ball mentions Lebron the most.

[tpols]

I get where you’re coming from but it’s speculative. Like how is 3ball sure lebron/dray a disaster. That would have some problems on offense but could be top tier defensively.

Curry does get a little too much Duncan type praise however. Duncan is not the main reason Parker/ginobli developed same for curry and dray/klay even with the late draft pick stuff. It’s disrespectful to the work those guys put in themselves and I tend to default to crediting a coach if I’m going credit someone else for a players development



Duncan is a top tier intangible GOAT.

He always promoted defense, taught it, inspired it, and when he had to, took a backseat to whoever he had to and he did so while still going off when needed.

A guy like lebron promotes shit defense through in effort, sabotages the GM for long term growth, and only operates offensively on his own terms...

hes an individual pinnacle and a team albatross... is what it is.

[NBAGOAT]

Duncan is a top tier intangible GOAT.

He always promoted defense, taught it, inspired it, and when he had to took a backseat to whoever he had to while still going off when needed.

A guy like lebron promotes shit defense through in effort, sabotages the GM for long term growth, and only operates offensively on his own terms...

hes an individual pinnacle and a team albatross... is what it is.

I don

[Vino24]

Kobe did everything that MJ did. In fact he did it better.

[GimmeThat]

while winning a championship... or in an organized, Spurs-like system



since you used the word or, I'm just curious are you simply stating Phil Jackson "the equal opportunity master" has had only 2 rings in which he doesn't have a hot-doggin-it scoring champion

I feel like the story line here is

"after winning championships in the East and showing without Michael Jordan, he couldn't get past the 2nd round. He left for the West where the East has already had the blue print in beating him, and by the time he won his last 2 championships, the league had been popularized by Spurs system instead of the hot-doggin-it scoring champion mode, because it shortened at least two HOFs career"

this is probably where some kid gets punched in the prison for saying I'm being a ***** because these are just athletes, they aren't even soldiers in real life or death situations

[SpaceJammeR]

against carpenters and mechanics he can:roll:

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

Jordan averaged 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals and 34/7/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs - so only Jordan won titles as a hot-doggin' scoring champ, while everyone else had to tone it down to win chips - they couldn't fit scoring champ levels into a championship brand of ball, and therefore had to score less to win.

[And1AllDay]

against carpenters and mechanics he can:roll:

:oldlol: 90s ringz :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

"Hot-doggin-it"

3bot makes every Jordan topic insufferable :lol

:oldlol:

hes bringin mike down

[3ba11]

:oldlol:

hes bringin mike down


using the term hot-doggin scoring champ illustrates the point that Jordan didn't have to tone it down to win, while everyone else did - MJ was still a hot-doggin scoring champ, while everyone else had to tone it down and score less to win.

Jordan averaged 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals and 34/7/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs - so only Jordan won titles as scoring champ baller, while everyone else had to tone it down to win chips - they couldn't fit scoring champ levels into a championship brand of ball, and therefore had to score less to win.

[Orange_Cassidy]

kobe could easily have averaged 33ppg during any of his rings except maybe the first one. he didn't cause shaq and gasol would cry if he did


in 2003 Phil.told kobe to stop going for.40 every night cause shaq was jealous

[3ba11]

kobe could easily have averaged 33ppg during any of his rings except maybe the first one. he didn't cause shaq and gasol would cry if he did


in 2003 Phil.told kobe to stop going for.40 every night cause shaq was jealous


Kobe's can't shoot 56% while guarding Magic.

I don't remember Kobe ever shooting 56%

That's the issue - Kobe can't win as scoring champ because his efficiency drops in the playoffs, while Jordan's didn't - only Jordan could shoot well enough at that volume to win.

[Orange_Cassidy]

Kobe's can't shoot 56% while guarding Magic.

I don't remember Kobe ever shooting 56%

That's the issue - Kobe can't win as scoring champ because his efficiency drops in the playoffs, while Jordan's didn't - only Jordan could shoot well enough at that volume to win.

kobe and Jordan's point per shot was the same for their careers up until kobes Achilles injury

he never needed to shoot the same percentage cause he could hit more threes and get to the line more often

and kobes shot selection was way different too. he would shoot impossible angles over people to demoralize them and silence the away crowd. it hurt his overall percentages but they had a big impact on momentum