How amazing is it that Kobe was as efficient as Duncan?

[superduper]

Career TS:

Kobe: .550%
Timmy: .551%

Kobe, a guard who dominated from the perimeter, was as efficient as THE best PF big man of all time.

What an efficient man :applause:

[Mr Feeny]

But he isn't nearly as efficient as Lebron:lol Given that Lebron does everything other than scoring better than Kobe does, it's nice to see you concede that he's also a better scorer than Kobe since he's more efficient and averages more ppg.

Case closed:applause:

[LAmbruh]

But he isn't nearly as efficient as Lebron:lol Given that Lebron does everything other than scoring better than Kobe does, it's nice to see you concede that he's also a better scorer than Kobe since he's more efficient and averages more ppg.

Case closed:applause:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/14ceV8wMLIGO6Q/giphy.gif

[ScalsFan21]

I'll tell you this. Both guys have played in a Game 7 of the NBA Finals in their primes, shot like complete garbage from the field, and got away with it because their teams picked them up. Yet only Kobe gets any blame for it.

I get why (because Kobe is overrated and Duncan is slightly less overrated), but Duncan had such a fortunate career arc. Falls ass-backwards into a great situation with a great coach because of the Robinson injury. Name me one other consensus #1 draft pick who was so lucky right out of the gate to be placed into a ready-made title situation.

Duncan is top ten all-time and a winning player, but he's barely better than Kobe, and it's an insult to compare him to the MDE.

[iamgine]

More like, "Yikes, Duncan was only as efficient as Kobe?"

[Mr Feeny]

I'll tell you this. Both guys have played in a Game 7 of the NBA Finals in their primes, shot like complete garbage from the field, and got away with it because their teams picked them up. Yet only Kobe gets any blame for it.

I get why (because Kobe is overrated and Duncan is slightly less overrated), but Duncan had such a fortunate career arc. Falls ass-backwards into a great situation with a great coach because of the Robinson injury. Name me one other consensus #1 draft pick who was so lucky right out of the gate to be placed into a ready-made title situation.

Duncan is top ten all-time and a winning player, but he's barely better than Kobe, and it's an insult to compare him to the MDE.

Duncan is a lot better than Kobe. There's a reason he's in every top 10 GOAT list while Kobe is 12th-15th.

[ScalsFan21]

Duncan is a lot better than Kobe. There's a reason he's in every top 10 GOAT list while Kobe is 12th-15th.

I agree with those placements, I just don't think the leap from 10th to 12th-15th is enormous, given the players who make up that tier. They're all very good with multiple rings.

But make no mistake. If Duncan is top ten, he's maybe 10th and no higher. The man was more or less KG in a better situation. He has a no case over Michael or LeBron, and a shitty case over Shaq, Magic, Bird, KAJ, Wilt, Russell. A strong argument can be made that Hakeem > as well, despite only 2 chips.

Duncan had ATG help for his entire career. He just never shared the court in his prime with another single player who was on par with him once Admiral tailed off. So it doesn't get noticed in the way that, say, Kobe not even being the best player on the majority of his title teams does.

[Horatio33]

Kobe had the greatest coach ever for every season bar one of his prime AND rode the coattails of perhaps the most dominant centre ever to his first three rings.

Shut the fu ck up

[Objectivity]

GOAT hands down :banana:

:bowdown:

[AirFederer]

What about defense?

[rmt]

I'll tell you this. Both guys have played in a Game 7 of the NBA Finals in their primes, shot like complete garbage from the field, and got away with it because their teams picked them up. Yet only Kobe gets any blame for it.

I get why (because Kobe is overrated and Duncan is slightly less overrated), but Duncan had such a fortunate career arc. Falls ass-backwards into a great situation with a great coach because of the Robinson injury. Name me one other consensus #1 draft pick who was so lucky right out of the gate to be placed into a ready-made title situation.

Duncan is top ten all-time and a winning player, but he's barely better than Kobe, and it's an insult to compare him to the MDE.

Both teams' coaches, players and the media saw it differently from you:

With his unique multidimensional talent, Duncan depleted and dissected the Pistons, collecting 25 points and 11 rebounds. He was the fulcrum of virtually every key play down the stretch.

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html


In contrast:

"Ron Artest was the most valuable player tonight," Phil Jackson said. "He brought life to our team."
http://www.webcitation.org/5wfrwRtjY

"I wanted it so, so bad," Bryant said. "On top of that, I was on E. Man, I was really, really tired, and the more I tried to push, the more it kept getting away from me."

"I wanted it so bad, and sometimes when you want it so bad, it slips away from you. My guys picked me up." - Kobe

https://www.csmonitor.com/From-the-news-wires/2010/0618/NBA-Finals-MVP-Kobe-Bryant-says-this-championship-is-the-sweetest


I don't see the reason to hate on 2 ATGs for these performances - they were against all-time great defenses (see the recent thread on greatest defensive teams). Iirc, mid 2000s Pistons garnered a lot of votes (and is backed up by stats) - multiple time DPOY Ben Wallace (5 fouls), Rasheed (5) and McDyess (4) ain't chopped liver. Larry Brown's defensive focus was on Duncan, and he put them all in foul trouble in Game 7.

[tpols]

Kobe at least was man enough to admit it.

[rmt]

I get why (because Kobe is overrated and Duncan is slightly less overrated), but Duncan had such a fortunate career arc. Falls ass-backwards into a great situation with a great coach because of the Robinson injury. Name me one other consensus #1 draft pick who was so lucky right out of the gate to be placed into a ready-made title situation.


Popovich was in danger of being fired in Spurs first championship year - he was FAR from a great coach (which he eventually grew into). I'll remind you that many coaches (especially unknowns as Pop was then) have gotten fired because a star wanted it. This is a player's league - because there are only 5 of your players on the court - TALENT is of utmost importance.

People in the know acknowledge who is the real reason for the Spurs' rings - see Mike Budenholzer acceptance of his COY award - giving thanks to Tim Duncan (first - because without players/talent there is no ring) and Gregg Popovich (who gave him a chance and taught him a lot).

[rmt]

Kobe at least was man enough to admit it.

Duncan does admit it wasn't the best of performances, but it wasn't someone else who bailed them out in Game 7 - it was Duncan.

"It wasn't the greatest of games but there was a stretch where I felt really good and I just wanted to be assertive at that point," Duncan said.

"They just kept coming to me and kept giving me the opportunities and I got one to fall in and two to fall in and things started happening," said Duncan, who made 10-of-27 shots. "Then I was able to draw some double-teams and got some guys some open shots."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe at least was man enough to admit it.

Admit what? Their performances weren't even comparable. Duncan was the defensive anchor of the Spurs' dynasty. His hallmark was defense and he still had a better offensive game than 2010 Kobe (a bad defender at that point) did.

Had Duncan played as poorly as Kobe did, he would certainly have admitted he did. But your mistake is false equivalence.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Kobe is nowhere near Duncan when it comes to all time ranking. Id put Duncan as high as #5, but Kobe is the consensus #12.

/thread

[PickernRoller]

Consensus for sure the thread will continue.

BUMP.

[Manny98]

Good for him

Still much less efficient than the real GOAT scorers like LeBron & KD so....

[PickernRoller]

The only thing they're GOAT at is losing Finals and racking up losing years on their career clock... :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Doranku]

Admit what? Their performances weren't even comparable. Duncan was the defensive anchor of the Spurs' dynasty. His hallmark was defense and he still had a better offensive game than 2010 Kobe (a bad defender at that point) did.

Had Duncan played as poorly as Kobe did, he would certainly have admitted he did. But your mistake is false equivalence.


Kobe was great defensively in the 2010 finals. You have no idea what you're talking about.

25/11/3 on 27 shots
23/15/2 on 24 shots

How are those performances not comparable? lol

[tpols]

Kobe was great defensively in the 2010 finals. You have no idea what you're talking about.

25/11/3 on 27 shots
23/15/2 on 24 shots

How are those performances not comparable? lol


Wow... worse across the board.

I didn't even know that..I guess because there was never an agenda against Timmy, no one ever brought it up.

If Kobe wasn't hated by media he'd likely be a consensus top 3 GOAT but what that one guy said was right, Colorado killed his media rep.

He only got spotlight as "the bad guy"

[ralph_i_el]

Imagine thinking that you could judge Duncan based on his scoring efficiency.

Think about how many buckets Duncan stopped in his career that would have gone un-stopped with a lesser defender. Think about how many wide open buckets the Spurs got over the years from having a genius IQ frontcourt player. Think about every role player that was more comfortable and confident playing besides one of the best teammates and leaders of all time.

Frontcourt guys who play both ends of the floor at an elite intellectual level are way rarer than genius guards. It's just a much smaller pool of players competing for these spots. The difference between Duncan and the replacement-level big is bigger than the difference between Kobe and a replacement shooting guard.

Of course Kobe is a top-20 player and Pop is a top-5 coach. If Duncan never existed, Kobe probably wins more rings and Pop isn't the legend he became.

[ArbitraryWater]

Admit what? Their performances weren't even comparable. Duncan was the defensive anchor of the Spurs' dynasty. His hallmark was defense and he still had a better offensive game than 2010 Kobe (a bad defender at that point) did.

Had Duncan played as poorly as Kobe did, he would certainly have admitted he did. But your mistake is false equivalence.

He shot like shit, but like KL, I dont think he'd point it out publically.

[SouBeachTalents]

I remember a made a thread about this once. Kobe gets trashed to this day about 6/24, but I've never seen anyone bring up Duncan's performance in the same exact circumstance

Kobe: 23/15/2 on 6/24 with 4 TO's
Duncan: 25/11/3 on 10/27 with 5 TO's

[ScalsFan21]

I remember a made a thread about this once. Kobe gets trashed to this day about 6/24, but I've never seen anyone bring up Duncan's performance in the same exact circumstance

Kobe: 23/15/2 on 6/24 with 4 TO's
Duncan: 25/11/3 on 10/27 with 5 TO's

Think that was me too. :lol

That's not to say Duncan doesn't do other things very well even when he's not shooting well from the floor, but when you shoot 10/27 on two-pointers with that much help in a home Game 7 of the NBA Finals, that's worth noting. We do need to put it into context with DET elite defense, but it's still something that would be used against any active star if they were in top 5-10 talks all-time.

Especially when you consider that any fair eye test puts Manu right there at 1b for FMVP in '05.

[rmt]

Think that was me too. :lol

That's not to say Duncan doesn't do other things very well even when he's not shooting well from the floor, but when you shoot 10/27 on two-pointers with that much help in a home Game 7 of the NBA Finals, that's worth noting. We do need to put it into context with DET elite defense, but it's still something that would be used against any active star if they were in top 5-10 talks all-time.

Especially when you consider that any fair eye test puts Manu right there at 1b for FMVP in '05.

With the defensive focus on Duncan:

2005 NBA Finals
Duncan 20.6 pts 14.1 rebs 2.1 asst 2.1 blks
Manu 18.7pts 5.9 rebs 4 asst

Duncan's 12 points and six rebounds in the third quarter of Game
7 put the Spurs in control, a factor that carried significant
weight in the minds of the six voters -- one each from Detroit and
San Antonio, two from national NBA writers and two from
broadcasters (all of them Americans) -- who cast their ballots for
Duncan late in the fourth quarter of Game 7. Ginobili's four votes
came from online balloting, one national NBA writer and one beat
writer each from San Antonio and Detroit.

https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2181970

[FKAri]

The only thing he's as efficient as Duncan in is fathering boys.

[rmt]

The only thing he's as efficient as Duncan in is fathering boys.

Duncan is 1/3
Kobe is 0/3

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe was great defensively in the 2010 finals. You have no idea what you're talking about.

25/11/3 on 27 shots
23/15/2 on 24 shots

How are those performances not comparable? lol

No, he was awful defensively. And played considerably worse in game 7 than Duncan did.

[LAmbruh]

Timmy fans absolutely tee'ing off on brick stains



complete apocalypse :lol

[superduper]

Rajon Rondo ‘pissed’ to learn how Kobe Bryant beat the Celtics in 2010 NBA Finals game seven

Apparently Rajon Rondo had never known the secret strategy Kobe Bryant figured out to help the Lakers beat the Celtics in game seven of the 2010 NBA Finals. Now that Rob Pelinka his anonymous source revealed it, the answer didn’t make him feel better.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/eANihe6VL41qqY4iTzzYFfiH0QE=/0x0:3000x2000/1220x813/filters:focal(981x293:1461x773):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/61501265/102184498.jpg.0.jpg


Rondo: It’s interesting, I just found out something about Kobe, what he did in the 2010 championship Game 7. How he broke the game down and figured out how to beat us. I can’t give you the insight on that, but I just found that out. Like, maybe 45 minutes ago. It kinda pissed me off a little bit. It’s part of it, but it’s craziness. It’s amazing how he thinks the game, and it’s fun to know that.

MT: Wait, wait … so in Game 7, Kobe figure something out during the game that helped the Lakers beat the Celtics for a championship, or did he do it between Game 6 and Game 7?

Rondo: I don’t know if it was going into the game, but it was told to me that he had to figure it out during the game. He wasn’t himself. So he had to figure out a different way to win the game.

MT: OK wait, so you heard it from Rob (Pelinka)?

Rondo: Somebody. (laughs) I can’t give you my source.

https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2018/9/23/17877108/rajon-rondo-pissed-lakers-kobe-bryant-beat-celtics-2010-nba-finals-game-seven-strategy

[chains5000]

https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/5d50e67c682304179915e09dab6ae0f74c1ba1d8

Duncan TS% = 26496 / 2(20334 + (0.44*8468)) ==> 55.06%

Kobe TS% = 33643 / 2(26200 + (0.44*10011)) ==> 54.96%

The FT weight is obviously a made up value (why 0.44?), so can it really be said that TS% is a valid way of comparing shooting efficiency?

[ImKobe]

Kobe was more dominant than Duncan and it showed when the two met eachother in the Playoffs. Y'all can make the Shaq argument but then look at how Kobe just went in on the Spurs in 2008, crossing Bowen/Manu and scoring on Duncan at will almost every time down the court in crunch time.

Duncan was a better defender and you can argue the leadership part but there's no doubt Kobe was in another tier offensively. It's funny they basically have the same TS% when Duncan was playing on limited minutes with multiple all-stars around him for almost the entire 2nd half of his career while Kobe had to carry average rosters for the majority of his from 05-13 and obviously the post-achilles years lowered his efficiency.

We can go from 00-13, where Duncan had a 55.0%TS vs Kobe's 55.7%, Kobe of course averaged more points at 28.1 vs Duncan's 19.8.

[BigTicket]

https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/5d50e67c682304179915e09dab6ae0f74c1ba1d8

Duncan TS% = 26496 / 2(20334 + (0.44*8468)) ==> 55.06%

Kobe TS% = 33643 / 2(26200 + (0.44*10011)) ==> 54.96%

The FT weight is obviously a made up value (why 0.44?), so can it really be said that TS% is a valid way of comparing shooting efficiency?

The FT weight value is indeed somewhat arbitrary. It's there due to the fact that it's not known how many FT's were and1's, or how many were from fouls on 3 pointers, so it's not clear how many possessions were used to get those FT attempts.
For recent seasons all this tracking data is available, so it would be possible to calculate a new more accurate "true" shooting percentage, but the formula would get far more complicated, and it would not be possible to compare to players in previous eras.

[chains5000]

The FT weight value is indeed somewhat arbitrary. It's there due to the fact that it's not known how many FT's were and1's, or how many were from fouls on 3 pointers, so it's not clear how many possessions were used to get those FT attempts.
For recent seasons all this tracking data is available, so it would be possible to calculate a new more accurate "true" shooting percentage, but the formula would get far more complicated, and it would not be possible to compare to players in previous eras.
That already happens, the current relation between a point and a FG attempt isn't the same as before the three point line.

[Kblaze8855]

https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/5d50e67c682304179915e09dab6ae0f74c1ba1d8

Duncan TS% = 26496 / 2(20334 + (0.44*8468)) ==> 55.06%

Kobe TS% = 33643 / 2(26200 + (0.44*10011)) ==> 54.96%

The FT weight is obviously a made up value (why 0.44?), so can it really be said that TS% is a valid way of comparing shooting efficiency?


All the advanced stats seem to run into something some guy just decided to count as this or that. One of the many reasons I see no reason to combine numbers. You still have to go back to see why they ended up what they are so why combine them to begin with?

Tyson Chandlers TS% is useless to me if I dont know how he played to achieve it. I either need to have seen him play....or go look at the numbers that make up his TS%....so why combine them to begin with?

I'll never get that.

If I have to use the "eye test" or look at the individual numbers to use the advanced stat....what good is it? How does it even save time if it requires my looking up the numbers it combined to get one number....to understand what it means?

If I gotta look it up anyway...or know the guys game to begin with....why give me the final number like you saved me some time?

[Mr Feeny]

Duncan was simple a better and more dominant player. Double Kobe' career worth of mvps. More titles as lead dog. Universally ranked tiers higher on every goat list.

There isn't anything close here.

[superduper]

Duncan was simple a better and more dominant player. Double Kobe' career worth of mvps. More titles as lead dog. Universally ranked tiers higher on every goat list.

There isn't anything close here.

But why are you triggered :oldlol:

[FireDavidKahn]

14,481
13,417
13,296
12,682

Guess what those are?

[FireDavidKahn]

https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/5d50e67c682304179915e09dab6ae0f74c1ba1d8

Duncan TS% = 26496 / 2(20334 + (0.44*8468)) ==> 55.06%

Kobe TS% = 33643 / 2(26200 + (0.44*10011)) ==> 54.96%

The FT weight is obviously a made up value (why 0.44?), so can it really be said that TS% is a valid way of comparing shooting efficiency?
Ummmm no, the FT weight isn't some made up arbitrary value.

What’s with the .44?

You want to convert free throws into a shot attempt equivalent. Since players usually take two free throws at a time, the coefficient should be around 0.50. But we have to account for and-1’s, technical free throws, flagrant foul free throws, and 3PT free throws (three in a row.) Thus, based on testing, the 0.44 coefficient is used for the NBA, and it’s surprisingly accurate.

For example, let’s look at a free throw drawing maestro, James Harden in 2015. Using data from NBAWOWY.com, he had 2217 points in the regular season with 1470 field goals and 824 free throws. Additionally, there were 52 and-1 attempts, 66 three-in-a-row free throw sets, and 38 technical/flagrant foul attempts. The traditional formula results in a TS% of 60.49% via the following: 100*2217/[2*(1470 + .44*824)]. This is very similar to the output received with the real proportions of free throws considered: 100*2217/[2*(1470 + .5*(824 – 52 – 66/3 – 38))] = 60.71%. Even with a free throw manipulator like Harden, the errors using the 0.44 estimate are usually pretty small.

In fact, using data provided by Seth Partnow, you can calculate a “real” TS% using the appropriate number of free throw possessions instead of using the 0.44 coefficient. This essentially tests the accuracy of that estimate. Looking at 2015 and players with at least 300 true-shot attempts, the correlation coefficient between the estimated TS% and the real TS% is 0.998[1. This is true whether or not you count technical foul shots. To some analysts, technical free throws do not count because they are essentially “free points” that usually aren’t created by the foul shooter and they can be replaced by whomever else is on the court. Either way, the differences are tiny and the correlation is strong.]. Only one player, Courtney Lee, had an error greater than 1% and only roughly a sixth of the 291 players in the data set had an error greater than 0.5%.

[Mr Feeny]

But why are you triggered :oldlol:

Aren't you the one who's triggered:lol

[SpaceJammeR]

kobes good. duncan was great.

[NBAGOAT]

ts% shouldnt even be considered an advanced stat now. It's just a really good measure of scoring efficiency. It doesnt matter if making fts is unimpressive, a guy who gets to the line every 4 shot attempts is helping a team score more than a guy who gets to the line every 8 shot attempts.

fg/3pt/ft used to be the gold standard but I think it's pointless now. so many guys take 3's so it matters how many of their shots are 3's or a 50/38/80 guy could be less efficient than a 47/35/80 guy. ft drawing maybe shouldnt be highly praised but it factors into scoring efficiency so should be included in a measurement. a 2pt%/3pt%/ft% might work a bit better however

[PickernRoller]

Kobe was not only as efficient, he was also the dominant star of his era (which Duncan shared). And I know.. I know I got a semi-truce going on with the few Duncan fans that still lurk and exist on ISH but....... Kobe pretty much derailed Duncan's career by cockblocking Duncan's runs. We can't simply act like it never happened.

Spurs killer... no one can make claim to that moniker, except one.

[Young X]

You guys don't get it, guards are supposed to be more efficient. They're the ones who can shoot free throws and threes.

This thread actually is a negative on Kobe if anything.

[PickernRoller]

You guys don't get it, guards are supposed to be more efficient. They're the ones who can shoot free throws and threes.

This thread actually is a negative on Kobe if anything.

Bruh.......

[Young X]

All big men (traditionally) can do is make layups and occasionally a midrange jumper. They miss free throws and don't hit threes.

Threes (if you're good at them) and freethrows are the most efficient ways to score.

Big men also can't handle the ball and run an offense like guards can. They are inherently inferior offensive players to guards.

Whether Duncan is better than Kobe or not has nothing to do with offense. Kobe is clearly better on offense (he's supposed to be, Duncan can barely even dribble and can't shoot past 18 feet). It's his defense that gives him an advantage.

[chains5000]

Ummmm no, the FT weight isn't some made up arbitrary value.
Just saying "based on testing" is not enough, any serious research would at least specify number of people involved. Did they use current players data? From the 80s? 90s? Need more to convince me it's not an arbitrary value.

[superduper]

What an amazingly efficient man :applause:

[Mr Feeny]

What an amazingly efficient man :applause:

Very efficient. Zero seasons shooting 47%fg+:lol

Meanwhile, Lebron's shooting percentage in every season since his sophomore year has been better than Kobe' career high:oldlol:

[superduper]

https://media.tenor.com/images/1e425f0991c66cd840f78b389e84f5c9/tenor.gif

..

[72-10]

Yes, Kobe is the better offensive player, but Duncan is the better and more effective defender, better rebounder, a great passing big, so he is almost as good of a passer as Kobe, Duncan blocked and altered lots of shots, etc. Duncan won more and Duncan was always the best player on his own team after 1997-98.

And Duncan shot free throws well compared to most bigs.

[superduper]

bump!!

[Vino24]

Very efficient. Zero seasons shooting 47%fg+:lol

Meanwhile, Lebron's shooting percentage in every season since his sophomore year has been better than Kobe' career high:oldlol:
And we are done here :eek:

[superduper]

And we are done here :eek:

Too bad TS% is a way more accurate measure of offensive scoring efficiency.

Imagine using the same efficiency stat in a sport that assigns 3 different numerical values to the 3 different types of made baskets in the sport :oldlol:

[Vino24]

Too bad TS% is a way more accurate measure of offensive scoring efficiency.

Imagine using the same efficiency stat in a sport that assigns 3 different numerical values to the 3 different types of made baskets in the sport :oldlol:
Lol kobrick missed a ton of shots. No way to doctor up that stat bub