NBA FINALS: LeBron faced 5 teams in the top 50 greatest teams, MJ only 1

[k0kakw0rld]

Bron:

01. 2016-2017 GSW loss
13. 2013-2014 SPURS loss
14. 2014-2015 GSW - loss
19. 2017-2018 GSW - loss
25. 2015-2016 GSW - won

vs

MJ:


44. 1995-1996 Utah Jazz - won

LeBron faced better competition in the FINALS than MJ did.

[GreatHILL]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvTBYojCMAI5ssn.jpg

[sportjames23]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvTBYojCMAI5ssn.jpg


Shut.




It.




















DOWN.

:cheers:

[Wally450]

Shut.




It.




















DOWN.

:cheers:


You shouldn't be talking at all. :oldlol:

[Bawkish]

Bron:

01. 2016-2017 GSW loss
13. 2013-2014 SPURS loss
14. 2014-2015 GSW - loss
19. 2017-2018 GSW - loss
25. 2015-2016 GSW - won

vs

MJ:


44. 1995-1996 Utah Jazz - won

LeBron faced better competition in the FINALS than MJ did.

So does JR Smith

[zeerghit]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvTBYojCMAI5ssn.jpg
lebron scored 27.2pts and he was only 20..

[Mr Feeny]

lebron scored 27.2pts and he was only 20..

He actually only averaged 17ppg against Barea. And they lost when they were overwhelming favourites.

[zeerghit]

He actually only averaged 17ppg against Barea. And they lost when they were overwhelming favourites.
im talking about hand checking rule.. and yes lebron choked 2011 as bad as u can, all good.

[Hey Yo]

MIAMI -- It's one of the most memorable images of the 2011 NBA Finals.

LeBron James, all 6-foot-8 and 270 pounds of him, couldn't take advantage of J.J. Barea in the post. James tried backing down Barea, who weighed about 100 pounds less than James soaking wet. But Barea fell upon contact and got the charge call after some, let's just say, artful exaggeration.

And James shied away from doing that again for the rest of the Finals, offering his detractors a convenient illustration of James' perceived lack of so-called killer instinct and appreciation for the post. The Heat lost that series and Barea was heralded as some sort of James kryptonite, if only for a few possessions, primarily because the diminutive former Mavericks guard was a very convincing actor. By most accounts, Barea flopped and got away with it.

And now the league plans to end all that.

NBA spokesman Tim Frank recently said the league is finalizing procedures to deal with flopping, the art of falling down when little or no contact was made in an effort to trick referees into calling a foul. Commissioner David Stern has made it clear that he believes flopping has poisoned the integrity of the game enough to implement a rule that would review potential flopping violations and fine players should they be found guilty of overtly trying to trick the referees.

https://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/15298/lebron-james-winner-of-the-anti-flop-rules

[Real14]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvTBYojCMAI5ssn.jpg
End of tha damn thread:roll:

[Real14]

OP is definitely retarded if he think what he is saying is true. Lord help us!

[3ball]

lebron scored 27.2pts and he was only 20..


And Magic was crushing the Finals at 20..


Stats at 22-23 years old vs championship team and #1 defense:



Jordan vs 86' Celtics - 44 on 50%
Lebron vs 07' Spurs - 22 on 36%

[3ball]

The Bulls rank higher on the list than most of lebron's opponents, so we know mj would have a better Finals record against the Warriors/Spurs than Lebron did

Facing great teams doesn't prevent you from having great teams yourself that compete evenly and effectively.. But we know lebron didn't compete effectively because he's 2-5 vs Warriors/Spurs including 2 sweeps and 2 record defeats.

Honestly, its hard for any all-time great to do WORSE than lebron did against the spurs/warriors... :confusedshrug: ... :facepalm .. :eek: ... He's nowhere near goat and you're all being bambozled.. okey-doked... :applause: .. :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

And Magic was crushing the Finals at 20..


Stats at 22-23 years old vs championship team and #1 defense:



Jordan vs 86' Celtics - 44 on 50%
Lebron vs 07' Spurs - 22 on 36%
:rolleyes:

MJ played 21gms in the 86 season.

LeBron with 98gms in 2007.

[LoneyROY7]

Bron:

01. 2016-2017 GSW loss
13. 2013-2014 SPURS loss
14. 2014-2015 GSW - loss
19. 2017-2018 GSW - loss
25. 2015-2016 GSW - won

vs

MJ:


44. 1995-1996 Utah Jazz - won

LeBron faced better competition in the FINALS than MJ did.

Wait so Jordan only faced a top 50 team (the 44th mind you) in the Finals ONCE? And LeBron faced 5 of the top 25?

Can't lie, that's pretty f*cking damning for the supposed goat.

[Spurs m8]

Remember when OP was sure Kawhi was staying?

[LoneyROY7]

Why does MJ have zero rings against a top 25 team?

1>0.

[SouBeachTalents]

Remember when OP was sure Kawhi was staying?
I'm pretty sure you thought the same thing, hence your previous username :lol

[FKAri]

I'm pretty sure you thought the same thing, hence your previous username :lol
He used to go on and on about Kawhi's loyalty, humility and old school mentality. Then he got cucked :oldlol:

[LAmbruh]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvTBYojCMAI5ssn.jpg
:yaohappy:


Reality:


https://i.postimg.cc/fT9vDcVs/jordan140612-300x310.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/gjwHwR4v/jordan2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/d3zmG1Sg/jordanhornacek-777x442.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[LostCause]

Bron:

01. 2016-2017 GSW loss
13. 2013-2014 SPURS loss
14. 2014-2015 GSW - loss
19. 2017-2018 GSW - loss
25. 2015-2016 GSW - won

vs

MJ:


44. 1995-1996 Utah Jazz - won

LeBron faced better competition in the FINALS than MJ did.

Problem here is that Jordans own teams are ranked high there, and since his team was usually winning against these others, obviously they wouldn't be ranked

I don't really understand how far removed from reality you'd have to be to post a bunch of teams someone LOST to as if that's some type of achievement. The Charlotte Hornets could've lost to all those teams too, would that elevate Kemba Walker or some shit? Confusing logic

The only one that matters it that he beat the 2016 Warriors. That's obviously better than any of Jordans Finals oppenents (Or should be, there's a reason the 2016 Warriors are ranked so low despite their regular season record), but you can't replace winning twice as much just by beating one superior opponent

[NBAGOAT]

Problem here is that Jordans own teams are ranked high there, and since his team was usually winning against these others, obviously they wouldn't be ranked

I don't really understand how far removed from reality you'd have to be to post a bunch of teams someone LOST to as if that's some type of achievement. The Charlotte Hornets could've lost to all those teams too, would that elevate Kemba Walker or some shit? Confusing logic

it goes back to the lacking thing in a comparison however. Like lets' get off lebron for a second, gets mentioned too much. kareem lost to a juggernaut team with wilt/west/goodrich. anyone would've but it's something lacking on mj's resume and he deserves some credit for making it a close series. this applies less to bron but does a lot to some other all time greats.

[3ball]

Problem here is that Jordans own teams are ranked high there, and since his team was usually winning against these others, obviously they wouldn't be ranked

I don't really understand how far removed from reality you'd have to be to post a bunch of teams someone LOST to as if that's some type of achievement. The Charlotte Hornets could've lost to all those teams too, would that elevate Kemba Walker or some shit? Confusing logic

The only one that matters it that he beat the 2016 Warriors. That's obviously better than any of Jordans Finals oppenents (Or should be, there's a reason the 2016 Warriors are ranked so low despite their regular season record), but you can't replace winning twice as much just by beating one superior opponent
I disagree that the 16' Warriors were a superior opponent

When did they win the Finals convincingly or impressively without Durant?.. They lost in 16' and 19'.. Both years they were injured but we can expect that from Curry and Klay at this point. That's an advantage MJ/Pippen or even Stockton/Malone have over Curry/Klay.. obviously Payton/Kemp/Schrempf are pretty sturdy with good injury history too.. they would also have that edge

[GimmeThat]

an ideology contributing to the leading cause of divorce

[guy]

What

[sdot_thadon]

Wow, in the tremendous rush to defend MJ's bathwater none of you noticed he didn't play the Jazz in 95-96?

[bullettooth]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvTBYojCMAI5ssn.jpg

Slayed on the first reply.

Why do LeBronze ******gers keep trying?

[Gileraracer]

Bron:

01. 2016-2017 GSW loss
13. 2013-2014 SPURS loss
14. 2014-2015 GSW - loss
19. 2017-2018 GSW - loss
25. 2015-2016 GSW - won



Damn all those losses. Lebron style :rockon:

[Phoenix]

Out of interest, why is finals competition used to disquality MJ from GOAT consideration as an individual player, but not the Durant Warriors as a team?

The 2017 Cavs were a good team but I've never seen them considered among the best to ever play. The 2018 Cavs were without Kyrie and had to scratch and claw their way to the finals with 2 seven game inter-conference series, including one against a Celtics squad led by untested rookies. They were suitably murked in the finals and it's more than fair to say that in a historical context, they were weak competition and a vastly inferior roster to the Warriors( which, is the same rationale for the 96-98 Bulls. That their roster is superior to everyone else's, even though the gap between them and the other great teams of that era is substantially less than the gap between the 2017/2018 Warriors and their competition outside of a team like the 2018 Rockets. But I digress...).

I mean ignoring the Warriors own finals competition to prop them as the GOAT team has an obvious underlying agenda, but the double standard is fairly transparent.

[sdot_thadon]

Out of interest, why is finals competition used to disquality MJ from GOAT consideration as an individual player, but not the Durant Warriors as a team?

The 2017 Cavs were a good team but I've never seen them considered among the best to ever play. The 2018 Cavs were without Kyrie and had to scratch and claw their way to the finals with 2 seven game inter-conference series, including one against a Celtics squad led by untested rookies. They were suitably murked in the finals and it's more than fair to say that in a historical context, they were weak competition and a vastly inferior roster to the Warriors( which, is the same rationale for the 96-98 Bulls. That their roster is superior to everyone else's, even though the gap between them and the other great teams of that era is substantially less than the gap between the 2017/2018 Warriors outside of maybe a team like the 2018 Rockets. But I digress...).

I mean ignoring the Warriors own finals competition to prop them as the GOAT team has an obvious underlying agenda, but the double standard is fairly transparent.
How is his comp being used to disqualify him? Maybe I'm crazy but it just seems to be used as an argument to dispute his status. Such arguments are present for every goat level player, should Mj get a special no criticism pass?

[Phoenix]

How is his comp being used to disqualify him? Maybe I'm crazy but it just seems to be used as an argument to dispute his status. Such arguments are present for every goat level player, should Mj get a special no criticism pass?

Are you really asking this, and in this thread of all instances? This very thread is being used to basically say 'MJ didn't face anyone of consequence in the finals'. Like, you're shitting me with this question, right? How many times has Jordan's 'weak' finals competition been said on this forum? You're too good a poster to act like you haven't seen this argument presented here 1000 times starting with this thread, where the underlying intent is obvious.

My question isn't to dismiss that argument or to suggest that Jordan should be immune from that particular talking point. So first, let's establish that nothing in my post infers what you're suggesting. I'm asking why 'finals competition' isn't used in the same manner as a talking point about why the Warriors are being called the GOAT. That's a standalone question that doesn't have anything to do with MJ directly. I only dropped MJ's name to ask why finals competition is held against him...and not the Warriors....when making the case that MJ is or isn't the GOAT player, and the Warriors are or aren't the GOAT team, with finals competition in each case being a fair arguing point. Why isn't that argument being applied objectively in both cases? Surely that was easy enough to comprehend in my prior post and if it wasn't, hopefully it's clear now what I'm asking.

[guy]

Am I missing something? What is this ranking from?

[guy]

Are you really asking this, and in this thread of all instances? This very thread is being used to basically say 'MJ didn't face anyone of consequence in the finals'. Like, you're shitting me with this question, right? How many times has Jordan's 'weak' finals competition been said on this forum? You're too good a poster to act like you haven't seen this argument presented here 1000 times starting with this thread, where the underlying intent is obvious.

My question isn't to dismiss that argument or to suggest that Jordan should be immune from that particular talking point. So first, let's establish that nothing in my post infers what you're suggesting. I'm asking why 'finals competition' isn't used in the same manner as a talking point about why the Warriors are being called the GOAT. That's a standalone question that doesn't have anything to do with MJ directly. I only dropped MJ's name to ask why finals competition is held against him...and not the Warriors....when making the case that MJ is or isn't the GOAT player, and the Warriors are or aren't the GOAT team, with finals competition in each case being a fair arguing point. Why isn't that argument being applied objectively in both cases? Surely that was easy enough to comprehend in my prior post and if it wasn't, hopefully it's clear now what I'm asking.

The competition argument is funny to me cause you can literally apply it against like 90% of NBA championships. The way people talk about it, there

[Da_Realist]

Am I missing something? What is this ranking from?

LeBronFanboy.com

[Manny98]

Wait MJ faced 0 top 30 teams in the finals? :biggums:

How can these pathetic stans brag about "6/6" when he faced no top teams in the finals :roll:

Its like bragging about never losing on 2k when you only play on the easiest difficulty

[Phoenix]

The competition argument is funny to me cause you can literally apply it against like 90% of NBA championships. The way people talk about it, there’s only 7-8 championships in NBA history that are relevant.

Yes. Case in point, the Lakers and Celtics beating each other in the 80's should carry exponentially more weight given they are both historically great teams. Though they were pretty much evenly matched. The Celtics win more than 3 titles if the Lakers weren't around, and the Lakers probably end up with 6 rings unless someone else other than Boston was beating them in 84. Also, bear in mind that the 86 Celtics for a long time were considered the GOAT team......when they beat a finals opponent that isn't historically significant. So the more you expand this argument, the more you see the inconsistencies.

The inverse of the 'Lebron faced all time GOAT teams( Durant Warriors) with inferior squads, so you can't dismiss his GOAT argument on that account'....is 'The Durant Warriors faced vastly inferior finals opponents( notably 2018) which should bring their GOAT status under critique'. It doesn't dismiss it, because the Warriors with Durant obviously have too much firepower to think they wouldn't be the favorites against the majority of teams in the history of the league. But they never beat another 'all-time great' team in the finals, or anywhere close to it....but that's not held against them. I mean the 2018 Rockets probably by several advanced metrics are one of the all-time great teams and they pushed Golden State as far as possible.....but the Warriors didn't face them in the finals and 'finals' competition is the barometer being used. It seems to be 'finals competition' should be fair criteria when arguing for BOTH the GOAT player AND the GOAT team in terms of who you face and beat...but I'm not seeing that argument applied equally in each case. Not on this board anyway....and we know why, of course.

[guy]

Yes. Case in point, the Lakers and Celtics beating each other in the 80's should carry exponentially more weight given they are both historically great teams. Though they were pretty much evenly matched. The Celtics win more than 3 titles if the Lakers weren't around, and the Lakers probably end up with 6 rings unless someone else other than Boston was beating them in 84. Also, bear in mind that the 86 Celtics for a long time were considered the GOAT team......when they beat a finals opponent that isn't historically significant. So the more you expand this argument, the more you see the inconsistencies.

The inverse of the 'Lebron faced all time GOAT teams( Durant Warriors) with inferior squads, so you can't dismiss his GOAT argument on that account'....is 'The Durant Warriors faced vastly inferior finals opponents( notably 2018) which should bring their GOAT status under critique'. It doesn't dismiss it, because the Warriors with Durant obviously have too much firepower to think they wouldn't be the favorites against the majority of teams in the history of the league. But they never beat another 'all-time great' team in the finals, or anywhere close to it....but that's not held against them. I mean the 2018 Rockets probably by several advanced metrics are one of the all-time great teams and they pushed Golden State as far as possible..I...but the Warriors didn't face them in the finals and 'finals' competition is the barometer being used. It seems to be 'finals competition' should be fair criteria when arguing for BOTH the GOAT player AND the GOAT team in terms of who you face and beat...but I'm not seeing that argument applied equally in each case. Not on this board anyway....and we know why, of course.

It

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=guy]It

[Manny98]

[QUOTE=guy]It

[superduper]

MJ's playoff competition was 75% harder than Bran's (3 rounds).
Bran's playoff competition was 25% harder than MJ's (1 round).

Peace and 1*'d.

[guy]

All of LeBrons championships are 100% legit :hammertime:

Well yea he

[tpols]

So old spurs & baby warriors...

3ball may be annoying but he's right.

There is absolutely no excuse lebrons prime big 3's should have ever been dogs to those teams...

[sdot_thadon]

Are you really asking this, and in this thread of all instances? This very thread is being used to basically say 'MJ didn't face anyone of consequence in the finals'. Like, you're shitting me with this question, right? How many times has Jordan's 'weak' finals competition been said on this forum? You're too good a poster to act like you haven't seen this argument presented here 1000 times starting with this thread, where the underlying intent is obvious.

My question isn't to dismiss that argument or to suggest that Jordan should be immune from that particular talking point. So first, let's establish that nothing in my post infers what you're suggesting. I'm asking why 'finals competition' isn't used in the same manner as a talking point about why the Warriors are being called the GOAT. That's a standalone question that doesn't have anything to do with MJ directly. I only dropped MJ's name to ask why finals competition is held against him...and not the Warriors....when making the case that MJ is or isn't the GOAT player, and the Warriors are or aren't the GOAT team, with finals competition in each case being a fair arguing point. Why isn't that argument being applied objectively in both cases? Surely that was easy enough to comprehend in my prior post and if it wasn't, hopefully it's clear now what I'm asking.
I have and let's be real both of us know any thread that mentions Mj, Kobe, or Lebron by name have underlying intent 99% of the time. I asked how one aspect of a huge debate could disqualify anyone from the discussion. I only asked you because I respect your opinion, most times when I see blank takes Lebron out of whatever discussion I don't bother to be honest. And also I'll always highlight Mj being handled with kid gloves in certain topics, but that's just me. That said, there's 2 things we know for sure:

1) Lebron did in fact face tougher teams in the finals than Mj did.
2) How much tougher is a gray area that's been difficult to quantify.

About the 17 Warriors thing, it's a great point but playing devil's advocate that Cavs team was pretty good, and I think they'd beat any version of that warrior team with a lesser replacement than Kd in Barnes place. It's not so much they faced weak comp, its that they were super loaded.

[guy]

So old spurs & baby warriors...

3ball may be annoying but he's right.

There is absolutely no excuse lebrons prime big 3's should have ever been dogs to those teams...

And baby Thunder. His underdog status is a result of underperformances in his case, whether it was in past seasons or the season in question.

I mean think about it, by 2012 he went three straight seasons where his teams lost embarrassingly as a favorite. Of course people are going to be skeptical to bet on him again after that.

[Manny98]

And baby Thunder. His underdog status is a result of underperformances in his case, whether it was in past seasons or the season in question.

I mean think about it, by 2012 he went three straight seasons where his teams lost embarrassingly as a favorite. Of course people are going to be skeptical to bet on him again after that.
The "baby Thunder" are still better than any team Jordan faced in the finals

[sdot_thadon]

And baby Thunder. His underdog status is a result of underperformances in his case, whether it was in past seasons or the season in question.

I mean think about it, by 2012 he went three straight seasons where his teams lost embarrassingly as a favorite. Of course people are going to be skeptical to bet on him again after that.
You could be right. Got a question though. Why do we say things like "baby" Thunder or Warrirors, yet I haven't one single time heard the "baby" magic in reference to Orlando's 95 team or even their 96 team. They get painted as this great team that was worthy, what about Okc or Gs?

[Hey Yo]

And baby Thunder. His underdog status is a result of underperformances in his case, whether it was in past seasons or the season in question.

I mean think about it, by 2012 he went three straight seasons where his teams lost embarrassingly as a favorite. Of course people are going to be skeptical to bet on him again after that.
Baby Thunder :oldlol: :rolleyes:

The team that went 12-3 against the so-called GOAT Western conference in route to the Finals?

The team with 3 All-NBA players, the reigning 3x scoring champ, blocks leader plus runner up DPOY and the 6MOTY?

That Heat 2012 team was same team LeBron played with the previous 3 seasons??

[guy]

You could be right. Got a question though. Why do we say things like "baby" Thunder or Warrirors, yet I haven't one single time heard the "baby" magic in reference to Orlando's 95 team or even their 96 team. They get painted as this great team that was worthy, what about Okc or Gs?

The Thunder and Warriors were really good / great teams. I wouldn

[Phoenix]

I have and let's be real both of us know any thread that mentions Mj, Kobe, or Lebron by name have underlying intent 99% of the time. I asked how one aspect of a huge debate could disqualify anyone from the discussion. I only asked you because I respect your opinion, most times when I see blank takes Lebron out of whatever discussion I don't bother to be honest. And also I'll always highlight Mj being handled with kid gloves in certain topics, but that's just me. That said, there's 2 things we know for sure:

1) Lebron did in fact face tougher teams in the finals than Mj did.
2) How much tougher is a gray area that's been difficult to quantify.

About the 17 Warriors thing, it's a great point but playing devil's advocate that Cavs team was pretty good, and I think they'd beat any version of that warrior team with a lesser replacement than Kd in Barnes place. It's not so much they faced weak comp, its that they were super loaded.

The 2017 Cavs were good, especially offensively, and I credited them as saying that's actually the only 'good' team the Warriors have beaten in the finals. The 2015 Cavs( in the finals) were Lebron and role players, as Kyrie and Love were both out. By no measure would they be considered 'good' finals competition in a historical context. Lots of teams would have steamrolled that version of the Cavs. The 2018 Cavs were Lebron and Love without Kyrie, and they weren't great competition either. The 2019 Raptors may have been the best finals team they faced, better than the 2017 Cavs, but KD was out and then Klay/Andre got hurt so we didn't get the benefit of both teams being at or even remotely close to full strength

I'm not even making an argument about Lebron's finals competition, I'm speaking to him AS the finals competition and why the Warriors are called the GOAT team nowadays without the benefit of GOAT finals competition. This is the argument being used against MJ, so I'm just asking why we don't apply that argument with respects to the Warriors. They beat a historically great player, but no historically great teams.

[Hey Yo]

[QUOTE=guy]The Thunder and Warriors were really good / great teams. I wouldn

[Phoenix]

All of a sudden when they got their asses handed to them by Orlando, it quickly turned into "MJ's rusty, he didn't have enough time to get into shape"

Asses handed to them? It was a competitive 6 game series where the Magic scored 100.7 ppg to the Bulls 99.8. MJ had 3 great games after game 1....38 in game 2, 40 in game 3, 39 in game 5. For the most part he actually played well enough to win that series but the enduring image of that encounter was the game 1 collapse when he got stripped by Nick Anderson then threw a bad pass causing a turnover. He failed in game one, and he rebounded well from that. The Bulls biggest problem that series was their frontline. MJ actually had the highest GmSc in the series for those who like to quote such things.

[NBAGOAT]

The 2017 Cavs were good, especially offensively, and I credited them as saying that's actually the only 'good' team the Warriors have beaten in the finals. The 2015 Cavs( in the finals) were Lebron and role players, as Kyrie and Love were both out. By no measure would they be considered 'good' finals competition in a historical context. Lots of teams would have steamrolled that version of the Cavs The 2018 Cavs were Lebron and Love without Kyrie, and they weren't great competition either. The 2019 Raptors may have been the best finals team they faced, better than the 2017 Cavs, but KD was out and then Klay/Andre got hurt so we didn't get the benefit of both teams being at or even remotely close to full strength

I'm not even making an argument about Lebron's finals competition, I'm speaking to him AS the finals competition and why the Warriors are called the GOAT team nowadays without the benefit of GOAT finals competition. This is the argument being used against MJ, so I'm just asking why we don't apply that argument with respects to the Warriors. They beat a historically great player, but no historically great teams.

It

[Phoenix]

It’s only one team but I think beating Houston is really impressive. The Knicks and magic are great teams but I don’t think many people have them a lvl beyond mjs final competition. Meanwhile for someone like shaq/Kobe, the western conference is their impressive completion, mainly blazers and kings.

My unpopular opinion is beating hou is even more impressive than beating the kings/blazers and most of mjs best competition at first glance. They are looked down upon because of their star and playstyle but it worked decently. I think they compare favorably to the jazz at least who are in the top half of mjs finals competition imo. A realgm poll even picked 18 rockets over 17 cavs.

I think others and I have been framing it wrong. We shouldnt penalize mj for his dominance but we are penalizing others too much for not being as dominant when one reason is stronger top end competition.

Kareem only won 4 rings in his prime really but should we really be penalizing him too much when he was clearly the best in the league and the lakers couldn’t put a championship roster around him for half a decade til licking into magic(this is even worse considering the 70s is a weak decade). Also losing to wilt/west or Boston’s big 3 isn’t embarrassing at all.

Should we blame magic and bird too much for losing to each other or even the bad boys and sixers.

Mj does have better playoff play than those guys but I feel like it’s too glossed over by people who say, mj won this series but they lost. Actually discuss it.

I’ve been seeing some people say recently when you’re the best player in the league, you should lead a juggernaut and thats just bs. An extreme example but no one in Kevin garnetts situation is winning more than one title in Minnesota. He had one good team and not even a great one really. It’s hard to develop young talent when the league has taken away your draft assets lol and you’re also too good to ever get a high draft pick

I was talking about 'finals' competition. Because it seems like the trolls like to 'gloss over' Lebron's conference competition and focus on the Warriors. Yes, the 2018 Rockets were obviously no joke as a team. The reality is the conferences are very rarely on par so there are several examples of where the 'real' finals was the conferences finals. The best way you'd be able to determine the two actual best teams in a given year, is by getting rid of conference playoffs and just do a 1-16 seeding for the top records. It would be a scheduling logistics nightmare, but the most objective way of actually having the best two teams meeting at the end. This year, you actually 'did' have the two best teams and in the case of Toronto especially, going through Philly and Milwaukee meant they didn't 'avoid' any other great east on their way to the finals.

[Da_Realist]

Bulls were favored in 95 due to how well MJ played in the 17 remaining reg. season games and the 1st round. Media and fans were saying he was still GOAT after the layoff.

All of a sudden when they got their asses handed to them by Orlando, it quickly turned into "MJ's rusty, he didn't have enough time to get into shape"

LeBron gets excused for choosing his organization, his coach, his teammates and still losing most of the time. You wouldn't raise an eyebrow if he came back with only 17 games left in the season before the playoffs started? No, of course not. :rolleyes:

Sure, MJ fading in the second half of every game and making uncharacteristic mistakes down the stretch had nothing to do with the fact he basically dropped himself onto a team almost 70 games into the season and tried to dominate a sport he hadn't played professionally for more than a year and a half.

I see why you can't see the issue. He put up great stats but couldn't control the game when it mattered most. You're used to seeing that for the most part. Stats looked great so...MJ must have been the same as always.

[LostCause]

Nobody was referring to them as the "baby Thunder" as they went 8-1 against Dallas (sweep) and LA...... the last 2 NBA champions. Then beating SA w/o HC advantage in the WCF.

People were referring to their inexperience on the big stage though

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slam-2012-finals-picks-miami-heat-thunder/

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/6/11/3077734/nba-finals-2012-picks-predictions-heat-vs-thunder

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/6/11/3077142/nba-finals-miami-heat-lebron-james-okc-thunder-2012

That's at least 20 different predictions with the vast majority favoring Miami, and many of them citing it being the Thunder's first year on the big stage as a reason why. Here's an excerpt from one of them:

"We now know this is LeBron’s team. Kevin Durant is great, but this will be the 23-year-old’s first time at this stage—the same goes for most of his teammates. LBJ, DWade, Chris Bosh, Spoelstra and company have been here before and they’ve lost. But that’s exactly what will push them to victory this time around. Time for King James to claim his throne."


Bulls were favored in 95 due to how well MJ played in the 17 remaining reg. season games and the 1st round. Media and fans were saying he was still GOAT after the layoff.

All of a sudden when they got their asses handed to them by Orlando, it quickly turned into "MJ's rusty, he didn't have enough time to get into shape"

MJ played well in the 1st round but he certainly played well below his standards during the regular season. I'm pretty sure I've destroyed your argument regarding that before but if you want to mount it up again, show me your evidence he was playing so well for the remaining 17 regular season games

There's no valid argument against him being rusty but sure, go for it

[NBAGOAT]

I was talking about 'finals' competition. Because it seems like the trolls like to 'gloss over' Lebron's conference competition and focus on the Warriors. Yes, the 2018 Rockets were obviously no joke as a team. The reality is the conferences are very rarely on par so there are several examples of where the 'real' finals was the conferences finals. The best way you'd be able to determine the two actual best teams in a given year, is by getting rid of conference playoffs and just do a 1-16 seeding for the top records. It would be a scheduling logistics nightmare, but the most objective way of actually having the best two teams meeting at the end. This year, you actually 'did' have the two best teams and in the case of Toronto especially, going through Philly and Milwaukee meant they didn't 'avoid' any other great east on their way to the finals.

Well I

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT][B]Well I

[NBAGOAT]

Right, and again that's why the hyper focus on who Lebron faced in the finals. I'm actually a proponent of 'you can only play who's in front of you', but when you're on a trollfest like this board you end up having to shit on other players competition, or the players themselves. I'd rather not, but that's what ISH thrives on.

Ah my fault. I jumped in since I thought the discussion had moved on to
Warriors vs bulls. Bron stuff is mostly boring here with no new perspective. You won

[Hey Yo]

LeBron gets excused for choosing his organization, his coach, his teammates and still losing most of the time. You wouldn't raise an eyebrow if he came back with only 17 games left in the season before the playoffs started? No, of course not. :rolleyes:[/.QUOTE]
MJ would have never come back if he didn't think he was ready. If James did what MJ did but went on to win a title that same year, I wouldn't count the title cause he didn't play the whole season. If it was due to injury, then yes I would count it but it was MJ's decision to not play when healthy in his prime. I guarantee also people would count that title for MJ if the Bulls won it in 95.

[QUOTE]Sure, MJ fading in the second half of every game and making uncharacteristic mistakes down the stretch had nothing to do with the fact he basically dropped himself onto a team almost 70 games into the season and tried to dominate a sport he hadn't played professionally for more than a year and a half.
Yet media and fans were creaming their jeans after his 55pt performance, no? Were they not writing and saying he was still the GOAT after the long layoff?


see why you can't see the issue. He put up great stats but couldn't control the game when it mattered most. You're used to seeing that for the most part. Stats looked great so...MJ must have been the same as always.
Saw with my own 2 eyes and heard with my ears. Everything was fine and dandy till they lost. That's when the excuses started rolling in. You really saying that didn't happen? It still does today......

[Hey Yo]

People were referring to their inexperience on the big stage though

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slam-2012-finals-picks-miami-heat-thunder/

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/6/11/3077734/nba-finals-2012-picks-predictions-heat-vs-thunder

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/6/11/3077142/nba-finals-miami-heat-lebron-james-okc-thunder-2012

That's at least 20 different predictions with the vast majority favoring Miami, and many of them citing it being the Thunder's first year on the big stage as a reason why. Here's an excerpt from one of them:

"We now know this is LeBron’s team. Kevin Durant is great, but this will be the 23-year-old’s first time at this stage—the same goes for most of his teammates. LBJ, DWade, Chris Bosh, Spoelstra and company have been here before and they’ve lost. But that’s exactly what will push them to victory this time around. Time for King James to claim his throne."
"As we all know, anything short of a championship is failure in the eyes of the Heat. If OKC were to win the series, heads would probably start rolling in Miami.

Well all the experts think this may very well happen.

Sports books have the Thunder as the odds on favorites to win it all and so do many NBA writers.

NBA writers from ESPN, SI.com and CBSSports.com overwhelmingly picked the Thunder to beat the Heat.

Of the 26 writers who made predictions for the three major sites, 18 picked OKC to win over Miami with 10 of them saying it'll happen in six games.

None of this really matters. Odds makers and "experts" are wrong all the time. But for them to be overwhelmingly in favor of the Thunder is quite telling.

https://www.businessinsider.com/thunder-favored-over-heat-nba-finals-2012-6

Your links say they were young yes, but many had them as odds on favorites that Finals.


MJ played well in the 1st round but he certainly played well below his standards during the regular season. I'm pretty sure I've destroyed your argument regarding that before but if you want to mount it up again, show me your evidence he was playing so well for the remaining 17 regular season games

There's no valid argument against him being rusty but sure, go for it
Before that postseason, I highly doubt there were more saying he was rusty after he came back than those who were saying it was like he never left the game.

Only after the Bulls were ousted, is when the excuses came rolling in.

[Da_Realist]

Saw with my own 2 eyes and heard with my ears. Everything was fine and dandy till they lost. That's when the excuses started rolling in. You really saying that didn't happen? It still does today......

Sure there was no chatter of MJ not quite being himself. We believe you.

Nick Anderson, then 27, said that Michael "didn't look like the old Michael Jordan" and that "No. 45 doesn't explode like No. 23 used to." "No. 45 is not No. 23. I couldn't have done that to No. 23."

https://www.espn.com/blog/nba/post/_/id/2648/flashback-20-years-ago-today-anderson-forces-mj-back-to-no-23

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orlando-magic/os-bulls-nba-record-brian-schmitz-0407-20160406-column.html

The quote heard round the world but you somehow missed it.

[egokiller]

Lebron wasn

[Hey Yo]

Sure there was no chatter of MJ not quite being himself. We believe you.

Nick Anderson, then 27, said that Michael "didn't look like the old Michael Jordan" and that "No. 45 doesn't explode like No. 23 used to." "No. 45 is not No. 23. I couldn't have done that to No. 23."

https://www.espn.com/blog/nba/post/_/id/2648/flashback-20-years-ago-today-anderson-forces-mj-back-to-no-23

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orlando-magic/os-bulls-nba-record-brian-schmitz-0407-20160406-column.html

The quote heard round the world but you somehow missed it.
Yeah, the quote after the fact. Still doesnt change what was being said about his return "before" the Orlando series even started.

[k0kakw0rld]

[QUOTE=egokiller]Lebron wasn

[And1AllDay]

mike beat up career loser modern era clipppers


utah jazz = 2010s clippers

[SamuraiSWISH]

Asses handed to them? It was a competitive 6 game series where the Magic scored 100.7 ppg to the Bulls 99.8. MJ had 3 great games after game 1....38 in game 2, 40 in game 3, 39 in game 5. For the most part he actually played well enough to win that series but the enduring image of that encounter was the game 1 collapse when he got stripped by Nick Anderson then threw a bad pass causing a turnover. He failed in game one, and he rebounded well from that. The Bulls biggest problem that series was their frontline. MJ actually had the highest GmSc in the series for those who like to quote such things.
Not only that, but a lot of those high point totals Jordan put up in that series, came in the first half.

I remember in game three when he scored 40, 31 of them came in the first half.

He just didn’t have the total basketball endurance and the legs to keep his performances going. One the inspirations for his change in playing style to conserve energy the next season.

Think about that, having played just 17 regular season games, after being retired for almost 2 years, while playing another professional sport. Jordan was the best player in a series that featured in his prime Shaquille O’Neal and in his prime Penny Hardaway

31 ppg on 48%, 7 rpg, 4 apg - 21.6 Gmsc

vs Shaq

24 ppg on 48%, 13 rpg, 4 apg - 20.4 Gmsc

And Jordan was also probably the better defender at that point.

This was the last time we would see it physically in his prime Air Jordan. One that takes people off the dribble and gets to the rim consistently to dunk.

The next season he reformatted his game to almost exclusively be in the post fade away Jordan.

And if anyone paid attention in that series, not only was Jordan the best player, they should’ve won that game six in Chicago. To end the game Jordan drew a double team, dished off a nice should’ve been assist to Luc Longley, who proceeded to not even drunk, but blew a layup.

So rusty out of shape baseball Jordan almost beat that stacked Magic team. Without even a semblance of a power forward to help rebound and defend interior wise against Shaq and Grant. With Pippen not even giving him over 20 points per game as sidekick.

And Three 6 Mafia kids act like they know what they’re talking about trying to use this as some great unspoken cover up skid mark on MJ’s legacy.

:facepalm :oldlol:

I can tell who was, and who wasn’t watching basketball, particularly when they criticize Jordan, in reference to both the 1994 season, and the 1995 season.

[guy]

Nobody was referring to them as the "baby Thunder" as they went 8-1 against Dallas (sweep) and LA...... the last 2 NBA champions. Then beating SA w/o HC advantage in the WCF.

Bulls were favored in 95 due to how well MJ played in the 17 remaining reg. season games and the 1st round. Media and fans were saying he was still GOAT after the layoff.

All of a sudden when they got their asses handed to them by Orlando, it quickly turned into "MJ's rusty, he didn't have enough time to get into shape"

They were literally one of if not the youngest team to ever make the finals and this was mentioned all the time during that time. Okay they didn

[guy]

MJ would have never come back if he didn't think he was ready. If James did what MJ did but went on to win a title that same year, I wouldn't count the title cause he didn't play the whole season. If it was due to injury, then yes I would count it but it was MJ's decision to not play when healthy in his prime. I guarantee also people would count that title for MJ if the Bulls won it

Yet media and fans were creaming their jeans after his 55pt performance, no? Were they not writing and saying he was still the GOAT after the long layoff?


Saw with my own 2 eyes and heard with my ears. Everything was fine and dandy till they lost. That's when the excuses started rolling in. You really saying that didn't happen? It still does today......

There is no way you are this full of shit :oldlol:

[Leviathon1121]

73-9 > 72-10
85-13 = 86.7%

88-17 = 83.8%

86.7 > 83.8 :confusedshrug:

[k0kakw0rld]

85-13 = 86.7%

88-17 = 83.8%

86.7 > 83.8 :confusedshrug:
85 +13 = 98
88 + 17= 105

Are you dumb? :biggums:

[Leviathon1121]

85 +13 = 98
88 + 17= 105

Are you dumb? :biggums:
Right sorry, adding both in my head on my phone didn

[Gileraracer]

mike beat up career loser modern era clipppers


utah jazz = 2010s clippers

Damn the 2010 Clippers must've been pretty old by then

[clipps]

Jordan was responsible for keeping teams out of the top 50 list.

[Manny98]

[QUOTE=egokiller]Lebron wasn

[TheMan]

73-9 > 72-10
72-10 plus winning the title > 73-9 and almost being done in the WCFs before choking away a 3-1 Finals lead against a perennial Fiinals loser in LeBron...I don't think so :lol

[TheMan]

The 2017 Warriors are the GOAT so no
No they aren't.

They should've lost in the WCFs being down 1-3...a truly GOAT dominant team doesn't get put on the verge of elimination if they truly are the GOAT team nor do they choke away a 3-1 Finals series lead to anyone, not even to your bf who was getting GOAT sidekick help by Kyrie.

The 2017 Warriors aren't the GOAT, sorry :( They aren't even thee best version of those Warriors teams, lol

[Uncle Drew]

No they aren't.

They should've lost in the WCFs being down 1-3...a truly GOAT dominant team doesn't get put on the verge of elimination if they truly are the GOAT team nor do they choke away a 3-1 Finals series lead to anyone, not even to your bf who was getting GOAT sidekick help by Kyrie.

The 2017 Warriors aren't the GOAT, sorry :( They aren't even thee best version of those Warriors teams, lol
That was 2016. Are you dumb?

[Manny98]

That was 2016. Are you dumb?
More proof TheMan is clueless about basketball :roll:

[Mr Feeny]

No they aren't.

They should've lost in the WCFs being down 1-3...a truly GOAT dominant team doesn't get put on the verge of elimination if they truly are the GOAT team nor do they choke away a 3-1 Finals series lead to anyone, not even to your bf who was getting GOAT sidekick help by Kyrie.

The 2017 Warriors aren't the GOAT, sorry :( They aren't even thee best version of those Warriors teams, lol

That was the previous year but I agree. Jordan's Bulls, Bird's Celtics were better.

[Phoenix]

Durant basically gave the Warriors a much wider margin for error. Klay off? Steph having a bad shooting night? No worries, KD is there to pick up the slack. Him joining was the true point of separation between them and Cleveland or OKC( who of course, KD left after being up 3-1 on the Warriors). In reality, 2016 Cleveland was better than a '57 win' team because Kyrie missed 29 games. In reality they very well could have been a 65-70 win team themselves, especially in the east, considering the Spurs won 67 in the west without Pop overextending their stars. Hell, Kawhi, Parker and Aldridge missed nearly 30 combined games. That was a 70 win team as well for all purposes if their 3 best players didn't miss that much time.

[Manny98]

Imagine believing the Bulls could actually stand a chance against the 2017 Warriors :oldlol:

Jordan fans getting more delusional by the hour :facepalm

[Vino24]

So because MJ bulls beat a 2015 clippers equivalent team a few times Orden stans think they could beat the 2017 warriors? :roll:

[TheMan]

That was the previous year but I agree. Jordan's Bulls, Bird's Celtics were better.
Ha my bad, thought you guys were talking about the 73-9 Warriors?

I would even put the Showtime Lakers above any version of the Warriors.

[TheMan]

Imagine believing the Bulls could actually stand a chance against the 2017 Warriors :oldlol:

Jordan fans getting more delusional by the hour :facepalm
Plenty of NBA analysts think the 96 Bulls would beat the KD Warriors.

They're Jordan stans too now? BTW, Vince Carter played in both eras, and he says the Bulls would curbstomp the Warriors under the Real Men NBA of the 90s instead of today's cupcake rules :oldlol:

https://youtu.be/Qm2r49yIr3s

[SpaceJam2]

That was 2016. Are you dumb?

:roll:


Wrekt his azz again

[Stringer Bell]

Imagine believing the Bulls could actually stand a chance against the 2017 Warriors :oldlol:

Jordan fans getting more delusional by the hour :facepalm


Plenty of NBA analysts think the 96 Bulls would beat the KD Warriors.

They're Jordan stans too now? BTW, Vince Carter played in both eras, and he says the Bulls would curbstomp the Warriors under the Real Men NBA of the 90s instead of today's cupcake rules :oldlol:

https://youtu.be/Qm2r49yIr3s

People always bring these hypotheticals, but whatever era

[72-10]

https://giphy.com/gifs/marc-maron-lock-the-gates-comedy-XpGuc2E2lEBeU

[Mr Feeny]

[QUOTE=Stringer Bell]People always bring these hypotheticals, but whatever era

[Mr Feeny]

Ha my bad, thought you guys were talking about the 73-9 Warriors?

I would even put the Showtime Lakers above any version of the Warriors.

It's fine. I'm not even sure what the argument is, to be honest. the Cavs were embarrassed by the warriors and Lebron was outplayed by Durant (especially at the end of the pivotal game 3 when Durant scored a 3 in Lebron's face and Lebron didn't drive for some odd reason when he had a defender with 5 fouls on him). Even if the argument is that the 2017 Warriors would beat the showtime Lakers,Jordan' Bulls, or Bird's Celtics (disagree with all), they definitely wouldn't lose the way the Cavs did.

[sportjames23]

That was the previous year but I agree. Jordan's Bulls, Bird's Celtics were better.

And Magic's Lakers.

[sportjames23]

Imagine believing the Bulls could actually stand a chance against the 2017 Warriors :oldlol:

Jordan fans getting more delusional by the hour :facepalm


Tell us how the Warriors would stop MJ. Or how they'd win playing against real defensive beasts like MJ, Pip, Rodman and Harper. Today's teams lack the defensive presence that teams in the 90s had. But you know that already, troll.

[Mr Feeny]

And Magic's Lakers.

Probably but it depends on which version. They're the team I'm least confident in making a definitive statement about. Magic would excoriate Steph if Steph were to match up on him but Klay might be able to atleast stick to him and slow him down given that he's strong for a 2 guard and magic doesn't have a very quick first step.

The bigger matchup issue is Kareem, in my opinion. If it's one of the early Lakers teams (anything from 1980-1985), there's a really big chance the Lakers win. Every trip down the court is a freebie for a 7'2 guy with a skyhook vs a 6'7 centre who can't jump.

[Manny98]

Tell us how the Warriors would stop MJ. Or how they'd win playing against real defensive beasts like MJ, Pip, Rodman and Harper. Today's teams lack the defensive presence that teams in the 90s had. But you know that already, troll.
Tell us how the Bulls could match the offensive firepower of KD,Curry and Klay at the same time

The Warriors can put Iggy on MJ, who on the Bulls is going to stop KD lol foh

Warriors in 5 max

[Mr Feeny]

Tell us how the Bulls could match the offensive firepower of KD,Curry and Klay at the same time

The Warriors can put Iggy on MJ, who on the Bulls is going to stop KD lol foh

Warriors in 5 max

Lol at Iggy stopping Jordan:lol

[Manny98]

Lol at Iggy stopping Jordan:lol
Didn't Payton lock up MJ in 96?

Let's not act like Igoudala is not one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time :oldlol:

Then you've got Klay,Draymond and KD to help out when needed :eek:

[Mr Feeny]

Didn't Payton lock up MJ in 96?

Let's not act like Igoudala is not one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time :oldlol:

Then you've got Klay,Draymond and KD to help out when needed :eek:

Payton was 10 times the perimeter defender that Iggy iis. You wouldn't know that because you weren't alive then. Or Green. Or Klay.

[ImKobe]

Tell us how the Warriors would stop MJ. Or how they'd win playing against real defensive beasts like MJ, Pip, Rodman and Harper. Today's teams lack the defensive presence that teams in the 90s had. But you know that already, troll.

:roll: :roll:

Warriors can't stop Harden, Kawhi, Kyrie or Lebron but somehow they'll lock down MJ, who's more athletic, has bigger hands and is more skilled than anyone they've ever had to guard.

These guys are delusional. :facepalm

[Manny98]

Still waiting for someone to enlighten me on how the Bulls can match the Warriors firepower :oldlol:

[TheMan]

Still waiting for someone to enlighten me on how the Bulls can match the Warriors firepower :oldlol:
They don't have match the Warriors firepower, there's a part of basketball called "defense", don't know if you're familiar with it since it's no longer allowed in today's cupcake era...

You remember (of course you don't) the 2004 Finals? Well the Lakers were heavy favorites to win the title, noobs like you were saying that the Lakers firepower would just overwhelm every team, Shaq, Kobe, Karl Malone, Gary Payton and according to you HOF worthy Horace Grant were just too much offense, but a team from Detroit that were really really good on defense ran roughshod over them in the Finals...true story, look it up.

Who's gonna cover KD? Well, there was a player named Scottie Pippen, might have heard off him, he was really good on defense, they also could put MJ on KD and even Dennis Rodman for shits and giggles. Those Bulls had 4 legit perimeter defenders, MJ, Harper, Pippen and Rodman. I think they could handle pipsqueak Curry, Klay and KD. Oh the Warriors will still score no doubt but like Vince Carter said, the Warriors probably win in today's no defense allowed era BUT if they play under 90s rules where you are allowed to put a hand on the offensive player (the way it has always been until the league decided that casuals love watching 136-129 games) the Bulls would easily win. And Vince Carter is a guy you should listen to, he has played (and still playing) under both eras and he's on record saying it's much easier to score today than it was when he entered the league. Ray Allen says the same thing, also Paul Pierce, Kobe, KG, Tim Duncan and others who played in both eras.

If they play under today's rules? Who's gonna stop MJ from scoring at will when you can't put a hand on him? PJax, Larry Brown, Hubie Brown, Metta W Peace, Ray Allen etc have all said that he would average anywhere from 40-50 pts today if he chose too...

Bulls would win in both scenarios. Less confident under today's rules TBH because Harper wouldn't be allowed to physically impose his will on Curry but under 90s rules? Hahaha, Bulls would sweep. Harper on Curry, MJ on Klay, Pippen on KD and Rodman on Green...I like our matchups...plus Kukoc > anyone coming off the Warriors bench IMO. Iggy is good tough player and a hell of a defender but Kukoc provides versatility on offense, Bulls already have enough legit D from the starters...

[Manny98]

No defense is going to contain Curry and KD... none especially in todays league

Who cares if MJ would average 40 their still going to get destroyed. Look what LeBron did against the Warriors, a 33 point triple double + Kyrie averaged 28 and they still lost in 5

Warriors are the GOAT team simple as that

[NBAGOAT]

They don't have match the Warriors firepower, there's a part of basketball called "defense", don't know if you're familiar with it since it's no longer allowed in today's cupcake era...

You remember (of course you don't) the 2004 Finals? Well the Lakers were heavy favorites to win the title, noobs like you were saying that the Lakers firepower would just overwhelm every team, Shaq, Kobe, Karl Malone, Gary Payton and according to you HOF worthy Horace Grant were just too much offense, but a team from Detroit that were really really good on defense ran roughshod over them in the Finals...true story, look it up.

Who's gonna cover KD? Well, there was a player named Scottie Pippen, might have heard off him, he was really good on defense, they also could put MJ on KD and even Dennis Rodman for shits and giggles. Those Bulls had 4 legit perimeter defenders, MJ, Harper, Pippen and Rodman. I think they could handle pipsqueak Curry, Klay and KD. Oh the Warriors will still score no doubt but like Vince Carter said, the Warriors probably win in today's no defense allowed era BUT if they play under 90s rules where you are allowed to put a hand on the offensive player (the way it has always been until the league decided that casuals love watching 136-129 games) the Bulls would easily win. And Vince Carter is a guy you should listen to, he has played (and still playing) under both eras and he's on record saying it's much easier to score today than it was when he entered the league. Ray Allen says the same thing, also Paul Pierce, Kobe, KG, Tim Duncan and others who played in both eras.

If they play under today's rules? Who's gonna stop MJ from scoring at will when you can't put a hand on him? PJax, Larry Brown, Hubie Brown, Metta W Peace, Ray Allen etc have all said that he would average anywhere from 40-50 pts today if he chose too...

Bulls would win in both scenarios. Less confident under today's rules TBH because Harper wouldn't be allowed to physically impose his will on Curry but under 90s rules? Hahaha, Bulls would sweep. Harper on Curry, MJ on Klay, Pippen on KD and Rodman on Green...I like our matchups...plus Kukoc > anyone coming off the Warriors bench IMO. Iggy is good tough player and a hell of a defender but Kukoc provides versatility on offense, Bulls already have enough legit D from the starters...

doubling offball is a big deal and technically not allowed as stringer said. Every team in the league does it sometimes to curry because they fear him shooting it. Not being able to double him means it doesnt matter who you put on him, he has something to counteract more guys grabbing him and could arguably get open easier.

On the flip side tbf, guarding mj is hard for the warriors under old rules. I could definitely see them wanting to throw 1.5 guys at mj even when he doesnt have the ball and completely sag off harper and rodman but they cant do that in 96.

[TheMan]

No defense is going to contain Curry and KD... none especially in todays league

Who cares if MJ would average 40 their still going to get destroyed. Look what LeBron did against the Warriors, a 33 point triple double + Kyrie averaged 28 and they still lost in 5

Warriors are the GOAT team simple as that
The Cavs were shit defensively, thats why LeBron scoring 33 along with Kyrie's 28 didn't matter much because they couldn't get stops even if their life depended on it. The Bulls are a GOAT defensive team along with having the GOAT scorer. The Warriors would have the edge playing by today's soft rules but if they play by the 90s rules where the bigger Harper could get in Curry's grill (like Dellavedova did in 2015) you go a long way in making the Warriors offense less effective...

The saying goes, defense wins titles :confusedshrug:

[zeerghit]

Payton was 10 times the perimeter defender that Iggy iis. You wouldn't know that because you weren't alive then. Or Green. Or Klay.
really??

[LostCause]

"As we all know, anything short of a championship is failure in the eyes of the Heat. If OKC were to win the series, heads would probably start rolling in Miami.

Well all the experts think this may very well happen.

Sports books have the Thunder as the odds on favorites to win it all and so do many NBA writers.

NBA writers from ESPN, SI.com and CBSSports.com overwhelmingly picked the Thunder to beat the Heat.

Of the 26 writers who made predictions for the three major sites, 18 picked OKC to win over Miami with 10 of them saying it'll happen in six games.

None of this really matters. Odds makers and "experts" are wrong all the time. But for them to be overwhelmingly in favor of the Thunder is quite telling.

https://www.businessinsider.com/thunder-favored-over-heat-nba-finals-2012-6

Your links say they were young yes, but many had them as odds on favorites that Finals.

You're moving the goalposts now. I provided ample evidence of a ton of different analysts favoring Miami and citing the fact they've been there before and it was their time whereas it wasn't for OKC or similar sentiments. Your claim was that people weren't saying this at the time. I showed that clearly a LOT of people were.


Before that postseason, I highly doubt there were more saying he was rusty after he came back than those who were saying it was like he never left the game.

Only after the Bulls were ousted, is when the excuses came rolling in.

Use your head

MJs play in 95 is significantly worse than it was the last year he played and the years after 95. Specifically his efficiency was terribly off, scoring was way down and his FG% was even worse than it was even during the Wizards years. This is even WORSE if you count from his Knicks 55pt game to the end of the season. What people were saying isn't relevant to what the facts show

Explain why that would be the case if he obviously wasn't rusty? Monstars took his talent that year then gave it back? There's only one answer to this

[k0kakw0rld]

3Ball get in here

[LAL]

Look at all those losses man.

[Walk on Water]

The reason they weren't part of the top 50 is because Jordan beat them, thus demoting them. Also this doesn't change the fact that Jordan is 6 and 0 in the Finals. So what's your point? What does it prove? How can you be better than 100 percent?

Also, Jordan made his team the GOAT team, so how could you judge him by how good others are?

[TheGoatest]

The reason they weren't part of the top 50 is because Jordan beat them, thus demoting them.

That surely must mean that his finals competition must've done great in 1994 and 1995, the two seasons the Bulls didn't win. Right?