Moses Malones place in history and the seductive power of highlights.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/0dyw-dpenlA


^

Brief video for those for whom hes just a name. Note...I said video. Not highlight video...because Moses Malone didnt really have any. Which I will go into shortly....



Moses was odd in a lot of ways. A bigtime scorer who wasnt really that good a scorer skills wise. He retired 3rd or so all time in scoring and is currently 9th. Godly rebounder but only led in defensive rebounds twice despite leading the NBA 7 times. He just couldnt be kept off the offensive boards. He used rebounding to score. Hes remembered for tapping in a lot of his own misses but if you watch him he was amazingly active on anyones shots. He would just go get it like a pass. Instincts, quickness, and positioning off the charts. And he was maybe the GOAT far as going back up with it. From any angle.

Perhaps the least skilled bigman to ever demand double and triple teams. One guy couldnt stop him just off the physicality. When he was on the Rockets playing with(relative) bums teams would just collapse all over him on the catch but hed still score 30:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EminentUncommonCornsnake-size_restricted.gif




He was acknowledged as the best player in a league that had Kareem, Bird, Doc, and Magic in it as he just drug teams to success. He beat showtime twice. Once with a superteam in Philly and once with his sidekick a near washed up 5'9'' Calvin Murphy. He put up somethng like 28/18 beating LA in 81 with a .500 team. His first 8 years in the playoffs?

23/18
19/17
25/21(very short series)
26/14
27/15
24/17
26/16
21/14




Outplayed Kareem twice in series. Had several 50 point games despite not being that skilled(though he was a better shooter than you probably think).

Won 3 MVPS two of them on bad teams. They went to the finals with him and won 14 games when he left.

When he got to Philly he got more love but he knew what it was:



The only reason people are saying I'm the number-one player is because I'm with the number-one team.



Said with a bit of resentment because some were hesitant to give him #1 status on the Rockets when hed lose to better teams. But a huge number of people gave it to him even then. In 83 it wouldnt have been much of a question. But you can find reputable people having him as the best in the league when he was 23 putting up 25/18 a game.

But.

40 years later?


All his peers are better. Magic. KAreem. Bird. Doc.

Hes the odd man out.

I strongly suspect its because he played like a deranged hobo trying to get a roster spot through sheer force of will.

The others were flashy. Cant even call it a ring argument. Doc only has 1 and Moses won it for him.

Moses never had another star in his prime. Bird had Mchale and Parish for their entire primes. Magic had Kareem early and all of Worthy. Kareem had Magic and Worthy. Doc didnt have one...but then he got Moses.

The closest Moses got to a prime star was aging Doc who while still spectacular put up 18ppg on their title run. He wasnt the real Doctor J.

If Moses got to Philly in 1977 right out of the ABA he and Doc probably have the status of Magic and Kareem but as it happened.....he got there as Doc ended and Barkley came on as Moses himself got old and shipped out.

He got a perfect storm to come out underrated. Only 1 ring because his teams sucked and his Philly team fell off as he got there. Crazy numbers in the one area people dont care about(rebounds). Absolutely no highlight to speak of. The flashiest play of his career would barely make a Demarcus Cousins best of March highlight reel.

But theres something to be said about just working so hard they cant keep you from hanging 30/24 on them right?

Hes gotta do it pretty to get talked about in the same breathe as guys who would have...at the time...acknowledged he was better than them?

How much must that suck? You go straight up bully a team for 42/26 and like 3 people on that team are more famous than you because there isnt a kid alive who wants to play like you.


Is there a spot in your top....whatever...for a guy who lived off heart and had the numbers to back it up? Moses in you top 15? 20? What?

Whats 3 MVPs, 27000 points, the most rebounds of anyone who didnt play in the 60s, 13 all star selection, a finals MVP, and video game numbers worth to you when they compiled all of that off sheer force of will?

We shitting on effort as a primary attribute? Cant be elite without the highlights? What?

[Prometheus]

Board man gets paid.

[SouBeachTalents]

He had one of the most accomplished seasons in history in 1983

MVP
65 wins
1st Team All-NBA
1st Team All-Defense
FMVP
12-1 postseason
Swept the Magic/Kareem Lakers in the Finals

[NBAGOAT]

Top 20. Defense is pretty important for a big and most don

[Kblaze8855]

I don

[LAmbruh]

I have him ranked 11th, right infront of Kobe

[tpols]

I don't see Hakeems case over him at all.

[NBAGOAT]

I don’t think many people at the time would have listened to a Gervin>Moses argument despite Gervin being considered much better than people looking back assume he was. That team record way of looking at it could be used in a lot of comparisons people wouldn’t really make. Jordan Dominique and Barkley all led subpar teams to about the same number of wins but that doesn’t mean Jordan was on the same level as the other two.

There is just a rough limit to what one player can do no matter how good he is and there is a point of diminishing returns with that. And absolute shit line up with the right chemistry and an all star could win in the upper 40s but you could give them the greatest player ever and only win 50.

There’s a cap that makes a lot of great player bad team combos come out on basically the same level.

I kind of agree but once in awhile, you see a guy carry a mediocre team to 55 wins and a semi relevant playoff run. There’s also different lvls of subpar. Dominique’s 80s teams are mediocre, mjs early ones are just bad

[iamgine]

I think the thing that counted against him the most is in Philly, he only won 1 title. Clearly they had enough talent to win a few before Moses got too old. Or at least go to the finals. Instead they lost in the 1st round. And the semis.

But most people still puts him top 15-20. That's not nothing.

[sdot_thadon]

Fo, Fo, Fo, Fo

I remember as a kid he was regarded as a top 10 guy, only to be pushed out by the 2000s era guys. I suppose his aesthetics didn't age well for the generation that followed after he retired. Shit the same happend for Doc, Oscar, and West over time.

[SouBeachTalents]

Fo, Fo, Fo, Fo

I remember as a kid he was regarded as a top 10 guy, only to be pushed out by the 2000s era guys. I suppose his aesthetics didn't age well for the generation that followed after he retired. Shit the same happend for Doc, Oscar, and West over time.
Oscar & West had the misfortune of going up against the Russell Celtics, otherwise they'd potentially have a lot more MVP's & titles. While Dr. J didn't get to the NBA until 26/27, and while individually playing well, came up short in the Finals 3 times before Moses arrived.

Moses has the 3 MVP's, but all those dudes you mentioned just didn't get enough individual or team accolades to stay in the top 10, only having 1 MVP or title/FMVP each

[sdot_thadon]

Oscar & West had the misfortune of going up against the Russell Celtics, otherwise they'd potentially have a lot more MVP's & titles. While Dr. J didn't get to the NBA until 26/27, and while individually playing well, came up short in the Finals 3 times before Moses arrived.

Moses has the 3 MVP's, but all those dudes you mentioned just didn't get enough individual or team accolades to stay in the top 10, only having 1 MVP or title/FMVP each
Right, the crop of guys that entered the top 10 from the 2000s all won more chips. But it also kind of shows the shift towards ring counting becuase I'm not sure Russell was ever more highly regarded than he is now aside from the 60s.

[warriorfan]

He was the GOAT garbage man cleaning up everything around the basket. He outworked everyone on a nightly basis. He

[GimmeThat]

one thing that he suffered mostly from was the early stage of basketball being Russell versus Wilt, thus it was a 6'9" undersized C against the 'Goliath'

his lack of playoff success most likely resulted in teammates watching him while Malone was fighting for rebounds. hence players who didn't play bigger than their size.

the concept is: if I have my big man down low grabbing a rebound, isn't that by default the best 2nd offensive possession without any additional set ups? the answer being: foul troubles, quarters, match ups, defensive set ups by moving players out of their position

but sure, the agenda is once again, just have someone like Lebron transition to the 1 position and problem solved. but what's the point of moving a player out of their position if the cost is players are no longer getting screened off the ball.

[Round Mound]

Big Moses The GOAT Offensive Rebounder!

[EllEffEll]

The 82/83 Sixers were one of the most dominant teams ever. Underrated too.

I went to a lot of Laker games around that time. Had a season ticket in 82/83. Went to two finals game in 1980 and two more in 1982.

Moses definitely put the Sixers over the hump. In 80 and 82, it was mostly Doc on one side and all his teammates clearing out for him on the other side, and it was not enough.

The physicality of Moses was extraordinary, and it rubbed off on his Sixer teammates too. They steamrolled the league that year and were no doubt deserving of the title. Even if James Worthy had not broken his leg late in the season, I believe the Sixers still win, but probably don't sweep the Lakers.

I think the 83 Sixers are right up there with the 87 Lakers and 86 Celtics as top teams of the decade, and Moses was the impetus for their success.

The 83 Sixers (with Moses) and 84 Celtics (when McHale clothes-lined Kurt Rambis with relative impunity) made the Lakers realize that they were going to need to toughen up if they wanted to get back to the top of the heap.

[tanibanana]

He and the rest of the great ABA players is the reason why I hope one day NBA finally includes the ABA statistics..

[Kblaze8855]

I think the thing that counted against him the most is in Philly, he only won 1 title. Clearly they had enough talent to win a few before Moses got too old. Or at least go to the finals. Instead they lost in the 1st round. And the semis.

But most people still puts him top 15-20. That's not nothing.



Youre right that its what holds his legacy back but people dont really look at it fairly. Rest of the top guys from his era?


Kareem had Magic for 10 years, Nixons 22-27, Jamal Wilkes 24-31, and all but the last 2 years of Worthys prime.

Magic had something like the real Kareem for 3-4 then an aging one with peak Worthy for 5-6 more.

Bird had every second of Mchale and Parish prime and some of Dennis Johnsons.

Isiah had peak version of everyone he played with. Dantley and Aguirre were both 29 when he got them. Rodman was with Isiah from 25-31. Dumars entire prime(22-29). Laimbeer 23-34.



Moses?

2 years of the real calvin murphy. Never played with the real Doctor J. He had Doctor J like Hakeem had Clyde Drexler. Really good player....but not the guy hes remembered as. He had 2 seasons of Barkley only one of them close to his prime level. He had 4 years of Mo Cheeks doing like 13/6. Bobby Jones was playing 20 minutes off the bench when Moses got there. Toney for like 2 years before his career ending injury. After that Moses was other peoples help not on his own team.

Can we compare 2 years of Calvin Murphy, 1 of a guy similar to the real Barkley, and a Doctor J having 14ppg playoff series to what those other guys had?


If Moses came to Philly in 76 when the ABA folded....then he has a fair chance to match those guys legacy. He had his "WTF?" loss in 84 but they all had them too. Magic and Kareems "WTF?" loss was to Moses and his shitty .500 team in 81. Bird had a couple. The Pistons fell off younger than they should have(the 91 Pistons 3 best players were 29, 29, and 27).

Moses only had 83-85 to realistically win and he didnt have a legit superstar for any of them. He had Doc who was still capable...but he didnt have Doc like Magic had Kareem or Bird had Mchale. Not like Shaq had Kobe or like Jordan had Pippen. He had Doc like....Allen Iverson had Chris Webber. Yea its still 20 points....but its not what the name of the guy suggests you have.

Even old Doc was spectacular but that was the Doc who id watch and not understand the hype my older family and other players put on him. I copied his moves because I had big hands and loved to palm it a bit(obviously not like he could). I respected him.....but he wasnt the true Doc. Hed take off at the dotted on a layup when he used to take off at the FT line. He could still do FT line dunks when eh was like 36 so im not calling him a bum athletic ability wise...im just saying he wasnt the real Doctor J.

Everyone else in that top 10-20 range got the real versions of their best teammates other than Hakeem, Moses, and maybe Wilt who only had a year of the real West while he was the real Wilt. He blew out his knee and wasnt himself after that. Who else? Maybe Dirk if you believe Nash learned to play at 30 instead of just having the league alter the rules and style to benefit him. KG is kinda like Moses. He had a year of the real Pierce and Ray but he wasnt the real KG after that.

But almost all these top _____ guys had the true versions of their best help. Moses didnt. KG didnt really. Wilt not for long. You could add Dirk if you wanted to ignore Nash actually being in his prime on the Mavs too.

But the top guys? They won because they had most of their careers with the prime versions of their best teammates.

All these 1-2 ring guys spent their careers on the tail ends or early years of their best teammates greatness.

Shaq/Kobe, Magic/Kareem, Bird/Mchale/Parish, MJ/Pippen, Isiah/Dumars/Rodman, Duncan/Manu/Parker, Russell/Cousy/Hondo and most of those types had way longer to get it done.

Moses, Hakeem, KG, and Barkley had pit stops with their best teammates while they were still HOF level. No room for error.

[ClipperRevival]

Still in my top 15 comfortably for sure. OP is right, because Moses wasn't an athletic freak and his highlights aren't eye popping, people can underrate him in the Youtube era. But based peak, resume, results and basic common sense, he's still way up there with the best ever.

[ClipperRevival]

The 82/83 Sixers were one of the most dominant teams ever. Underrated too.

I went to a lot of Laker games around that time. Had a season ticket in 82/83. Went to two finals game in 1980 and two more in 1982.

Moses definitely put the Sixers over the hump. In 80 and 82, it was mostly Doc on one side and all his teammates clearing out for him on the other side, and it was not enough.

The physicality of Moses was extraordinary, and it rubbed off on his Sixer teammates too. They steamrolled the league that year and were no doubt deserving of the title. Even if James Worthy had not broken his leg late in the season, I believe the Sixers still win, but probably don't sweep the Lakers.

I think the 83 Sixers are right up there with the 87 Lakers and 86 Celtics as top teams of the decade, and Moses was the impetus for their success.

The 83 Sixers (with Moses) and 84 Celtics (when McHale clothes-lined Kurt Rambis with relative impunity) made the Lakers realize that they were going to need to toughen up if they wanted to get back to the top of the heap.

80's/early 90's bball is the GOAT era of bball because you truely had 5 GOAT tier teams in the Celtics, Lakers, 76ers, Pistons and Bulls.

[iamgine]

Youre right that its what holds his legacy back but people dont really look at it fairly. Rest of the top guys from his era?


Kareem had Magic for 10 years, Nixons 22-27, Jamal Wilkes 24-31, and all but the last 2 years of Worthys prime.

Magic had something like the real Kareem for 3-4 then an aging one with peak Worthy for 5-6 more.

Bird had every second of Mchale and Parish prime and some of Dennis Johnsons.

Isiah had peak version of everyone he played with. Dantley and Aguirre were both 29 when he got them. Rodman was with Isiah from 25-31. Dumars entire prime(22-29). Laimbeer 23-34.



Moses?

2 years of the real calvin murphy. Never played with the real Doctor J. He had Doctor J like Hakeem had Clyde Drexler. Really good player....but not the guy hes remembered as. He had 2 seasons of Barkley only one of them close to his prime level. He had 4 years of Mo Cheeks doing like 13/6. Bobby Jones was playing 20 minutes off the bench when Moses got there. Toney for like 2 years before his career ending injury. After that Moses was other peoples help not on his own team.

Can we compare 2 years of Calvin Murphy, 1 of a guy similar to the real Barkley, and a Doctor J having 14ppg playoff series to what those other guys had?


If Moses came to Philly in 76 when the ABA folded....then he has a fair chance to match those guys legacy. He had his "WTF?" loss in 84 but they all had them too. Magic and Kareems "WTF?" loss was to Moses and his shitty .500 team in 81. Bird had a couple. The Pistons fell off younger than they should have(the 91 Pistons 3 best players were 29, 29, and 27).

Moses only had 83-85 to realistically win and he didnt have a legit superstar for any of them. He had Doc who was still capable...but he didnt have Doc like Magic had Kareem or Bird had Mchale. Not like Shaq had Kobe or like Jordan had Pippen. He had Doc like....Allen Iverson had Chris Webber. Yea its still 20 points....but its not what the name of the guy suggests you have.

Even old Doc was spectacular but that was the Doc who id watch and not understand the hype my older family and other players put on him. I copied his moves because I had big hands and loved to palm it a bit(obviously not like he could). I respected him.....but he wasnt the true Doc. Hed take off at the dotted on a layup when he used to take off at the FT line. He could still do FT line dunks when eh was like 36 so im not calling him a bum athletic ability wise...im just saying he wasnt the real Doctor J.

Everyone else in that top 10-20 range got the real versions of their best teammates other than Hakeem, Moses, and maybe Wilt who only had a year of the real West while he was the real Wilt. He blew out his knee and wasnt himself after that. Who else? Maybe Dirk if you believe Nash learned to play at 30 instead of just having the league alter the rules and style to benefit him. KG is kinda like Moses. He had a year of the real Pierce and Ray but he wasnt the real KG after that.

But almost all these top _____ guys had the true versions of their best help. Moses didnt. KG didnt really. Wilt not for long. You could add Dirk if you wanted to ignore Nash actually being in his prime on the Mavs too.

But the top guys? They won because they had most of their careers with the prime versions of their best teammates.

All these 1-2 ring guys spent their careers on the tail ends or early years of their best teammates greatness.

Shaq/Kobe, Magic/Kareem, Bird/Mchale/Parish, MJ/Pippen, Isiah/Dumars/Rodman, Duncan/Manu/Parker, Russell/Cousy/Hondo and most of those types had way longer to get it done.

Moses, Hakeem, KG, and Barkley had pit stops with their best teammates while they were still HOF level. No room for error.
Duncan's best teammate was Robinson.

But sure. Some guys were lucky with teammates and it enhanced their place in history. Some guys were unlucky and couldn't come to the US cause of politics. Some even died in car accident at 28.

I'm not really sure though of what point you are making. Or if it's just a rant for the less fortunate.

[AussieSteve]

The thing is, Moses' only ring came in a season when they probably make the finals without him.

Bobby Jones, Dr J, Toney, Mo Cheeks... that is some lineup, no matter who plays C. Give them any decent C and they're probably favourites for the championship... they won 59, 62 and 58 games the previous three seasons without Moses and went to the finals two of those years. Sure Moses is the reason they were completely dominant, but they would still be a 60+ win title contender with any legit starting C.

He deserves to be in the 14-20 range. And that's where most have him.

[Mr Feeny]

That's an excellent post.

[Kblaze8855]

Duncan's best teammate was Robinson.

But sure. Some guys were lucky with teammates and it enhanced their place in history. Some guys were unlucky and couldn't come to the US cause of politics. Some even died in car accident at 28.

I'm not really sure though of what point you are making. Or if it's just a rant for the less fortunate.


The point is....people know its easier to win with great help....watch people win with great help they have for entire decades....use that winning to rank them.....and then use the same standard for people who had way less help and for way less time. And genuinely dont see the problem.

It feels like we cant be as stupid collectively as so many of us seem to be individually.....but...here we are. I dont mean you personally....I mean sports fans in general.

[Kblaze8855]

The thing is, Moses' only ring came in a season when they probably make the finals without him.

Bobby Jones, Dr J, Toney, Mo Cheeks... that is some lineup, no matter who plays C. Give them any decent C and they're probably favourites for the championship... they won 59, 62 and 58 games the previous three seasons without Moses and went to the finals two of those years. Sure Moses is the reason they were completely dominant, but they would still be a 60+ win title contender with any legit starting C.

He deserves to be in the 14-20 range. And that's where most have him.


He was also in the finals with a team that won 14 games when he left for Philly.

Nobody disputes that Philly would be great with or without him. But we also dont dispute that the Lakers still won 60 games and went to the finals after Kareem or that they didnt close out the Philly team Moses joined with Kareem at home.

Everyone who won in the 80s did so on stacked teams. The team Moses swept in the finals had 3 hall of famers and an all star starting with both a 26 year old DPOY and 31 year old former MVP off the bench.

Thats how it was back then.

[MaxPlayer]

Good post. Moses really does seem to be a forgotten man.

I wonder how much of it has to do with the fact that his career was overlapped/followed by another big man also named "Malone" who was an even better scorer.

[r0drig0lac]

underrated

[superduper]

Excellent post, educated me on someone I didn't know much about.

[AussieSteve]

He was also in the finals with a team that won 14 games when he left for Philly.

Nobody disputes that Philly would be great with or without him. But we also dont dispute that the Lakers still won 60 games and went to the finals after Kareem or that they didnt close out the Philly team Moses joined with Kareem at home.

Everyone who won in the 80s did so on stacked teams. The team Moses swept in the finals had 3 hall of famers and an all star starting with both a 26 year old DPOY and 31 year old former MVP off the bench.

Thats how it was back then.

I take your point.

There isn't really an objective way to say who was better between lots of guys. All we have is what they achieved, which is heavily influenced by the help they had.

To further your point on Moses, he actually never had Barkley outside of his rookie season. In Chuck's 2nd year, Moses got injured a couple weeks before the playoffs and the 76ers went to within a bucket of the conference finals without him. He was still All NBA at that point, so who knows how far they might have gotten wirh him.

Barkley really came on in the 2nd half of 86 and averaged 25/16/6 in the playoffs. A front court of near-prime Barkley and Moses would have been devastating, but Moses moved on the next season.

[AussieSteve]

Good post. Moses really does seem to be a forgotten man.

I wonder how much of it has to do with the fact that his career was overlapped/followed by another big man also named "Malone" who was an even better scorer.

In the late 80s there were three Malones scoring >20ppg and making all star teams. What are the odds?

Jeff played with Moses at the bullets, and later joined Karl at the jazz. Moses should have joined the jazz too in the early 90s just for the lols.

[Xiao Yao You]

In the late 80s there were three Malones scoring >20ppg and making all star teams. What are the odds?

Jeff played with Moses at the bullets, and later joined Karl at the jazz. Moses should have joined the jazz too in the early 90s just for the lols.

Jeff sucked. Karl and Moses would have been great though

[dankok8]

I wrote an article on Moses Malone several years back. Definitely underrated among casual fans and millennials. OP got it exactly right on the description. Just a one-man wrecking crew on the boards.

His battles with Kareem were interesting. Kareem could score at will (not like Moses or anyone else could stop him) but he wanted no part of Moses down low. Despite his insane longevity, as years went by, one part of his game Kareem sacrificed was rebounding. He just didn't have the motor to fight under the boards and Moses demolished him. Then again he demolished other great centers as well. Gilmore, Lanier, Parish, Sikma... There was a game in 1982 where Moses outrebounded Jack Sikma 32-3. In fact he outrebounded the entire Supersonics team in that game. He had a 3-month stretch that season where he put up like 36 and 18 on 55% shooting.

Moses was the best player in the league from 1981-1983 and top 5 for another three or four years. He should be consensus top 20 all time. For me he's top 15. I think years back last time I made a list I ranked him #12...

And one epic Moses stat no one mentioned...

He's the all time leader in double doubles (NBA + ABA). Yes he has more than even Wilt Chamberlain...