Is Tracy McGrady overrated?

[tpols]

Everybody seems to have this idea that peak, uninjured tmac was some GOAT level wing, but i was watching his duels with kobe, and he really looks like a slower durant.

He's super skilled and long, but hes just... slow. Has absolutely no speed. like a slimmer longer paul pierce.

[15yearmagicfan]

No

[Relinquish]

No. At his peak, he was a more dominant player even than Kobe. Unfortunately, he never had a great cast around him and when there finally was, the team was extremely injury riddled (McGrady included). He's properly rated as a great player that didn't have great team success and shortened longevity due to injuries.

[tpols]

No. At his peak, he was a more dominant player even than Kobe. Unfortunately, he never had a great cast around him and when there finally was, the team was extremely injury riddled (McGrady included). He's properly rated as a great player who did not have great team success/had bad injury luck.


i mean im watching all this tape on him and he doesnt have anywhere near the quickness, agility, speed, or motor of kobe. Hes like a tall, slow version of him.

its interesting to me because durant is taller than tmac but he moves so much quicker. And his shot arc isnt a total line drive.

[Kblaze8855]

In 02 or 03 people wouldnt have thought anything of you saying he was a top 3 player in a league with prime Shaq, prime Duncan, prime Garnett, and Kobe at the start of his prime. In fact all of ISH was arguing Kobe vs Tmac and it wasnt like...some dumb question regardless of how it looks to you 15 years later.

[tpols]

i know that.. thats why its interesting to review the tape and compare him to current all time great players as time goes on...

It really makes me bo0st durants all time status because he really looks like a superman version of tmac. Better halfcourt because of his shooting, and much much better in the open court because his acceleration and speed are so much better. The only thing KD doesnt do as well is full court ballhandling, which is part of the reason i think tmac may have become overrated. Everybody loves a super tall player who can aesthetically handle the rock against ball pressure.

im not saying he's ass, but you can even see in this thread already, someone saying he was better than kobe, which pretty much proves the original assumption to be correct.

[Shogon]

i know that.. thats why its interesting to review the tape and compare him to current all time great players as time goes on...

It really makes me bo0st durants all time status because he really looks like a superman version of tmac. Better halfcourt because of his shooting, and much much better in the open court because his acceleration and speed are so much better.

im not saying he's ass, but you can even see in this thread already, someone saying he was better than kobe, which pretty much proves the original assumption to be correct.

He was better than Kobe, dumbass.

The difference between their careers was longevity/health and teammates. That's it. Which I mean... hey... longevity/health are super important for legacies, but yeah...

If your contention is that Durant is way better than McGrady, then your contention best be that Durant is way better than Kobe, otherwise you're a retard. Well, I mean... I already know you're a retard. So whatever.

[NBAGOAT]

Too much skill and shotmaking along with making it look easier than the other iso guys. He’s 6’8, it’s ok if he’s not as fast as Kobe and others and being called worse than Durant isn’t a slight. Like most of those early 00s iso guys, his passing is underrated however and thts his advantage over durant

[tpols]

He was better than Kobe, dumbass.

The difference between their careers was longevity/health and teammates. That's it. Which I mean... hey... longevity/health are super important for legacies, but yeah...

If your contention is that Durant is way better than McGrady, then your contention best be that Durant is way better than Kobe, otherwise you're a retard. Well, I mean... I already know you're a retard. So whatever.


I dont think he was even better than jkidd... who led shit teams to finals while tmac couldnt even win a single series in the east.

Ditto young paul pierce who had absolutely no help, and still led his squad to playoff wins.

Yet people would laugh at tmac vs paul in hindsight.

Thats why i raised the question.

[Kblaze8855]

Not really. Opinions dont get closer to the truth after decades. Youre always closer to peoples real opinion in the heat of the moment not reflecting on a guy they have 800 blurry memories of across 15 years.

Tmac had better handles than KD...was a better passer. As good a natural scorer but in a different way. Nobody of their body type is really gonna outshoot KD but its hard to compare 00-04 to any time recent.

Nobody playing today has to face defenses like that and nobody then had the spacing to work with.

The worst teams prime Durant played on still had other hall of famers putting in work.

Tmac was out there vs teams that held you to 90-93 points and slowed down the game....with Gordon Giricek and the remains of Patrick Ewing.

Its not that fair a comparison. Mcgrady would probably be a giant scoring point like James Harden today with 7 shooters on the team while the Hawks give up 118ppg instead of 92. Just off being able to better pick his spots hed probably look a lot more efficient.

[Shogon]

I dont think he was even better than jkidd... who led shit teams to finals while tmac couldnt even win a single series in the east.

Ditto young paul pierce who led his squad to playoff wins.

Yet people would laugh at tmac vs paul in hindsight.

Thats why i raised the question.

How'd Kobe do with shit teams?

Oh wait, missed the playoffs in the middle of his prime.

lol @ attributing team success to individual guys...

The only guy in the history of the league that holds true for is Bill Russell. That's it.

Your brain is so ****ing pathetic it makes me want to kill myself.

[tpols]

kobe made the playoffs in the west with tmac's level of help and was literally a shot away from upsetting a 2 seed.

you just ethered yourself mate.

Back to jkidd and paul pierce, why didnt these guys get anywhere near the hindsight shine tmac gets?

They played in the exact same conference... at the exact same time... no help... did way more.

This is why its important to not get solely sucked into aesthetics.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont think he was even better than jkidd... who led shit teams to finals while tmac couldnt even win a single series in the east.

Ditto young paul pierce who led his squad to playoff wins.

Yet people would laugh at tmac vs paul in hindsight.

Thats why i raised the question.


You need to go look at some early 2000s rosters. Paul Pierce having a 22ish PPG Antione Walker was a rarity. The only superstars that had even serious scoring sidekicks were Shaq/Kobe, Peja for Webber, Glen Robinson for Ray Allen, and maybe Finley for Dirk.

It wasnt like today.

People were on their own.

Tell me.....who in Orlando from 00-04 was even as good as Kenyon Martin?


Drew Gooden?

Rookie Mike Miller?

Giricek?

16 games of grant hill?

Steven Hunter

Who?

Lets get specific....in the 03 playoffs this is Tmacs help:



Rookie Drew Gooen
34 year old Darrell Armstrong
Giricek
Pat Garrity
Vaughn
Chris Whitney
Andrew Declerq
Shawn Kemps Krispie Kreme slathered remains
Pat Burke
Steven Hunter
Gerald Sasser




Thats it.


Tell me now.

Which is those players were better than the Nets 4th best player Kerry Kittles?

[NBAGOAT]

kobe made the playoffs in the west with tmac's level of help and was literally a shot away from upsetting a 2 seed.

you just ethered yourself mate.

Back to jkidd and paul pierce, why didnt these guys get anywhere near the hindsight shine tmac gets?

They played in the exact same conference... at the exact same time... no help... did way more.

This is why its important to not get solely sucked into aesthetics.

Comparing Kidd

[tpols]

The nets won like 20 games in the year before Kidd came to their team.

Take him off? Pure lotto. worse maybe...

And im sorry but an antione walker and ricky davis led celtic team would be the biggest clownshow circus the NBA has ever seen.

Pierce was an underrated competitor imo. He was a G. And better than tmac to me.

There's a reason shaq nicknamed him "the truth".

[NBAGOAT]

The nets won like 20 games in the year before Kidd came to their team.

Take him off? Pure lotto. worse maybe...

And im sorry but an antione walker and ricky davis led celtic team would be the biggest clownshow circus the NBA has ever seen.

Pierce was an underrated competitor imo. He was a G. And better than tmac to me.

There's a reason shaq nicknamed him "the truth".

The magic are the worst team of all time without tmac. I’m exaggerating slightly but they’re in bobcats territory

[Kblaze8855]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]Comparing Kidd

[brooks_thompson]

TMac wasn't slow, he just moved at the speed of cool.

[Kblaze8855]

The nets won like 20 games in the year before Kidd came to their team.

Take him off? Pure lotto. worse maybe...

And im sorry but an antione walker and ricky davis led celtic team would be the biggest clownshow circus the NBA has ever seen.

Pierce was an underrated competitor imo. He was a G. And better than tmac to me.

There's a reason shaq nicknamed him "the truth".


Show me a worse team in history than:




Rookie Drew Gooen
34 year old Darrell Armstrong
Giricek
Pat Garrity
Vaughn
Chris Whitney
Andrew Declerq
Shawn Kemps Krispie Kreme slathered remains
Pat Burke
Steven Hunter
Gerald Sasser



Without Tmac.

Come in here and tell me it wouldnt be arguably the least talented lineup to ever step foot on an NBA court.

[Kblaze8855]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]The magic are the worst team of all time without tmac. I

[brooks_thompson]

Damn been i while since I hear or read Gerald Sasser

[tpols]

People really dont realize how much the league has changed.

Antione Walker was the highest scoring second option in the NBA other than Kobe.


that doesnt mean shit.

he was a negative asset player. a straight meme.

id rather have jacques vaughn on my squad.

[Kblaze8855]

Well you are clearly a troll not here to make serious points so I’m gonna go ahead and ignore you and talk to people who might be halfway serious.

[NBAGOAT]

Mike miller for 49 games is admittedly good. I definitely consider him over Antoine. Thing is rest of the roster really matters however. The Celtics won 49 in 02 because they were a great defensive team, are you really going try to argue pierce carried their defense however?

[tpols]

Show me a worse team in history than:




Rookie Drew Gooen
34 year old Darrell Armstrong
Giricek
Pat Garrity
Vaughn
Chris Whitney
Andrew Declerq
Shawn Kemps Krispie Kreme slathered remains
Pat Burke
Steven Hunter
Gerald Sasser



Without Tmac.

Come in here and tell me it wouldnt be arguably the least talented lineup to ever step foot on an NBA court.


No worse than a kenyon martin led nets team would be.

Shit.. they won 26 games with all star marbury playing, and kenyon.

What are they without that slight all star push?

Basement fodder. You're splitting hairs here, they were both terrible.

But kidd did so much more.

[Kblaze8855]

I believe Miller is who they traded for Giricek and Gooden..

[tpols]

Mike miller for 49 games is admittedly good. I definitely consider him over Antoine. Thing is rest of the roster really matters however. The Celtics won 49 in 02 because they were a great defensive team, are you really going try to argue pierce carried their defense however?


exactly. i cant believe blaze is toting that guy.

Tione literally had TS's in the 40s in the playoffs with paul.

He was absolutely all time bad minus by every metric you could possibly look up.

Trolling? sorry pal.

[NBAGOAT]

I believe Miller is who they traded for Giricek and Gooden..

Yea tmac played with two rosters that year. Looked it up, they were 26-29 after his last game with them

[Doranku]

His playoff career is pretty amusing. '01 torched by Ray Ray, '02 outplayed by Baron Davis, '03 blew a 3-1 lead to the Pistons, '05 blew a 2-0 lead to the Mavericks after winning the first two games on the road, '07 blew another 2-0 lead to the Boozer/DWill Jazz and ultimately lost game 7 at home.. and that concludes TMac's playoff appearances as an All-Star. :lol

All first round exits btw.

[72-10]

He was lacking on the defensive end, that's the main knock. I think the prime is rather short-lived compared to those of most of the Hall of Famers.

[tpols]

His playoff career is pretty amusing. '01 torched by Ray Ray, '02 outplayed by Baron Davis, '03 blew a 3-1 lead to the Pistons, '05 blew a 2-0 lead to the Mavericks after winning the first two games on the road, '07 blew another 2-0 lead to the Boozer/DWill Jazz and ultimately lost game 7 at home.. and that concludes TMac's playoff appearances as an All-Star. :lol

All first round exits btw.


im telling you yo... he was like brabbit in the first battle.

T-Clarence. On some private school shit, he was a good talent but people elevated him to god mode based off aesthetics.

and not to quote dj khaled but thats a ****ing nother one. Ray Allen got no comparative love and was better as well.

[Phoenix]

He didn't have blinding speed, but he was very co-ordinated and rarely out of control. Better handles and passing than Durant, wasn't the shooter.....but as Kblaze said 2000-2004 was a commonly accepted tough defensive environment. I don't think KD is as efficient back in 2003 and I don't think Tmac is as inefficient in 2019. Unfortunately, Tmac's back really started acting up after than 2003 season( and he was having issues even then), so we never got to see 2003 Tmac in 2005 once the rules changed. Everyone remembers Kobe going off for 35ppg, but rarely bring up that a 31 year old Iverson put up 33ppg on above average efficiency. Nash exploded, Dirk had his career highs IIRC, Arenas was like 29ppg. Put healthy TMac in 2006 with a greenlight and he's probably dropping somewhere between 33 and 35ppg.

[PickernRoller]

Everybody seems to have this idea that peak, uninjured tmac was some GOAT level wing, but i was watching his duels with kobe, and he really looks like a slower durant.

He's super skilled and long, but hes just... slow. Has absolutely no speed. like a slimmer longer paul pierce.

Has a much better midrange game than Durant tho...

I'll take his 2003-2004 version over any of Durants to win a Final.

[RRR3]

Kobe fans still haven’t forgiven T-Mac for being better than their hero before injuries took their toll.


Most insecure fanbase of all time.

[elementally morale]

[QUOTE=RRR3]Kobe fans still haven

[RRR3]

You sure talk about them a lot... speaking of being insecure... :oldlol:
They’re a plague anywhere there is basketball discussion.

[NBAGOAT]

Has a much better midrange game than Durant tho...

I'll take his 2003-2004 version over any of Durants to win a Final.

Durant

[elementally morale]

[QUOTE=RRR3]They

[72-10]

lol at bringing up Ray Allen in a T-Mac discussion... are you aware that T-Mac's career best from 3 is 38% and from the field is 45%? Ray Allen's the second best shooter of all time after Stephen Curry.:no:

[PickernRoller]

Durant’s an all tine shooter, shot over 50% from midrange this year... tmac is better at some things but shooting is not one of them

You're quoting shooting percentage when I'm referring to scoring versatility - specially his mid-range. I'll take 2003-2004 TMac any day to get it done. Durant got ****ing locked down by Tony Allen (midget for his size) in his MVP years... kid ain't that much, as good as he's. Lucky the league's office forced GSW hand in 16. He has two rings thanks to that.

[tpols]

lol at bringing up Ray Allen in a T-Mac discussion... are you aware that T-Mac's career best from 3 is 38% and from the field is 45%? Ray Allen's the second best shooter of all time after Stephen Curry.:no:


thats the point though. Ray Allen was a much better shooter and honestly defender as well.

tmac has playmaking and ballhandling but those are overrated iso traits in his case.

he didnt have an off ball skillset or high motor for anything other than QB'ing the rock. the aesthetics of it had him overrated.

[NBAGOAT]

You're quoting shooting percentage when I'm referring to scoring versatility - specially his mid-range. I'll take 2003-2004 TMac any day to get it done. Durant got ****ing locked down by Tony Allen in his MVP years... kid ain't that much, as good as he's.

Durant doesn

[72-10]

thats the point though. Ray Allen was a much better shooter and honestly defender as well.

tmac has playmaking and ballhandling but those are overrated iso traits in his case.

he didnt have an off ball skillset or high motor for anything other than QB'ing the rock. the aesthetics of it had him overrated.

Ray wasn't a better defender at all. But his ballhandling was just as good, and one thing people overlook is Ray's ability to quick release and minimize his dribbles resulting in low turnover rates even considering that he was often an off-ball player, though he was the best player on his team throughout his prime, and the offense ran through him a lot then as the ball dominant player, arguably even with Big Dog Glenn Robinson on his team with the Bucks.

[GimmeThat]

are defensive head coaches overrated?

Mike Brown
Mike Woodson
Tom Thibodeau
Lionel Hollins
Dwane Casey

as for comparison goes, I'd say he's Blake Griffin tier

[SouBeachTalents]

are defensive head coaches overrated?

Mike Brown
Mike Woodson
Tom Thibodeau
Lionel Hollins
Dwane Casey

as for comparison goes, I'd say he's Blake Griffin tier
Nah, McGrady was CLEARLY better than Blake bruh :lol

[LoneyROY7]

Yes. Absolutely.

T-Mac legitimately had one elite season. Let that sink in for a sec. Homie was basically hovering around 20-24 PER for the rest of his career.

He couldn't get out of the 1st round and played on Rockets team that was trying to win and compete EVERY year he was there. That's just sad.

[superduper]

are defensive head coaches overrated?

Mike Brown
Mike Woodson
Tom Thibodeau
Lionel Hollins
Dwane Casey

as for comparison goes, I'd say he's Blake Griffin tier

Do you watch basketball :biggums: :oldlol:

[Prometheus]

Your brain is so ****ing pathetic it makes me want to kill myself.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

why you gotta have no chill like that?

[ILLsmak]

I dono if kd is the comparison I'd go with.

I don't think tmac was slow, he got the shots he wanted. He was obviously a top tier athlete. If anything he probably settled for too many tough shots.

Any 6'9 guy who can jump 40 inches is crazy. Durant has a poverty vert he's just amazing at shooting and handles plus being tall. Tmac had some really good hang time.

-Smak

[LoneyROY7]

I just watched a T-Mac vs. Kobe battle from 2007. Jesus.

McGrady doesn't look even in the same stratosphere as Kobe. Looks like he's moving in molasses.

[SpaceJam]

It's a travesty he made the Hall of Fame before Ben Wallace is even in

[Kblaze8855]

It really is amazing how many people here obviously weren't basketball fans in Tmacs prime. It doesnt feel that long ago but we clearly have a lot of people who straight up dont remember the early 2000s.

[Mr Feeny]

I just watched a T-Mac vs. Kobe battle from 2007. Jesus.

McGrady doesn't look even in the same stratosphere as Kobe. Looks like he's moving in molasses.

He was a shell of himself in 2007. He was at his best during 2002-2004. It wasn't the smartest or most effective basketball, but he'd take long 3' on isolations, that always looked cool. Very few had games more aesthetically pleasing as McGrady in his prime.

[Phoenix]

I just watched a T-Mac vs. Kobe battle from 2007. Jesus.

McGrady doesn't look even in the same stratosphere as Kobe. Looks like he's moving in molasses.

His back was well fukked by 2007.

[Kblaze8855]

He didnt even play like he used to in 2005....

[Phoenix]

His shot became more of a line drive over time, wasn't getting nearly the same lift, and started settling for a lot more long 2's and 3's once his slashing ability declined. He was 23-24 in 2003, really without that back injury he was still ascending as a player. A healthy 28 year old Tmac would have been something.

[NBAGOAT]

tmac and yao make paul and griffin seem like ironmen. unlucky as hell as even with a declining tmac, the rockets should've been a contender.

[andgar923]

Everybody seems to have this idea that peak, uninjured tmac was some GOAT level wing, but i was watching his duels with kobe, and he really looks like a slower durant.

He's super skilled and long, but hes just... slow. Has absolutely no speed. like a slimmer longer paul pierce.
No speed?

:lol

[andgar923]

Sad thing is the OP isn

[andgar923]

It really is amazing how many people here obviously weren't basketball fans in Tmacs prime. It doesnt feel that long ago but we clearly have a lot of people who straight up dont remember the early 2000s.
I

[Relinquish]

He was lacking on the defensive end, that's the main knock. I think the prime is rather short-lived compared to those of most of the Hall of Famers.

His defense was not bad at all, definitely underrated. He was a solid defender, not top tier but solid.

[Relinquish]

It really is amazing how many people here obviously weren't basketball fans in Tmacs prime. It doesnt feel that long ago but we clearly have a lot of people who straight up dont remember the early 2000s.

It doesn't, but in his peak season was still 16-17 years ago, which is a long time.

[Relinquish]

It's a travesty he made the Hall of Fame before Ben Wallace is even in

It's because he was a 7 time all star, scoring champ, and an elite, top player in the league for multiple years. Wallace was never a top player in the league, he was an amazing rebounding and defensive specialist. That's not a knock on him, but there's a reason his bbref hall of fame chance is 45.3% whereas T-Mac's was 95.5%.

[tpols]

No speed?

:lol


Sad thing is the OP isn’t trolling.

We should implement an age restriction on this board for these sort of threads.

Tmac had a very quick first step and was crazy agile and athletic. Not sure what kind of clips he’s watching.


you dont understand what speed means. (:confusedshrug: )

First step is quickness. Speed is how fast you sprint up and down the floor. Or what youre capable of after getting a head of steam.

I of course did watch back then, but im rewatching now all his best games from '03 to '04 and the guy was not fast.

He could jump and was quick and tall and skilled, but speed is something he didnt have comparative to other all time great wings.

He was sort of like vince carter, who wasnt particularly fast either. Two foot jumpers.

So its hard to have a conversation on this if you dont even know what "speed" entails my friend.

[andgar923]

His defense was not bad at all, definitely underrated. He was a solid defender, not top tier but solid.
I think his demeanor made it appear as if he didn

[tpols]

It's because he was a 7 time all star, scoring champ, and an elite, top player in the league for multiple years. Wallace was never a top player in the league, he was an amazing rebounding and defensive specialist. That's not a knock on him, but there's a reason his bbref hall of fame chance is 45.3% whereas T-Mac's was 95.5%.


The reason for that is the NBA is an entertainment league and ben wallace was purely a defensive player.

But if you look at impact, he actually had more than tmac. He was the anchor for a GOAT defense and title winning team. Near dynasty actually.

Where as tmac is a first round guy who lost when his teams were up big.

You're arent able to discern entertainment from impact.

[andgar923]

you dont understand what speed means. (:confusedshrug: )

First step is quickness. Speed is how fast you sprint up and down the floor. Or what youre capable of after getting a head of steam.

I of course did watch back then, but im rewatching now all his best games from '03 to '04 and the guy was not fast.

He could jump and was quick and tall and skilled, but speed is something he didnt have comparative to other all time great wings.

He was sort of like vince carter, who wasnt particularly fast either. Two foot jumpers.

So its hard to have a conversation on this if you dont even know what "speed" entails my friend.
This isn

[CTbasketball92]

I'm really confused about the slow part. From what I remember TMac was very, very quick in addition to obviously being a great vertical athlete with awesome strength.

He reportedly ran a 4.4 40 (hand-timed, but probably still a good time for him).

[andgar923]

I'm really confused about the slow part. From what I remember TMac was very, very quick in addition to obviously being a great vertical athlete with awesome strength.

He reportedly ran a 4.4 40 (hand-timed, but probably still a good time for him).
He was beating small players all the time with ease.

[Shogon]

I'm really confused about the slow part. From what I remember TMac was very, very quick in addition to obviously being a great vertical athlete with awesome strength.

He reportedly ran a 4.4 40 (hand-timed, but probably still a good time for him).

There's nothing to be confused about. tpols literally never watched him play. He's an idiot.

[tanibanana]

He is rated accordingly... great player.

If the 80

[stalkerforlife]

Highly.

Soft mentally.

Extremely talented.

I remember him crying about zone defenses.

Mental midget.

Couldn't play through pain.

[Relinquish]

The reason for that is the NBA is an entertainment league and ben wallace was purely a defensive player.

But if you look at impact, he actually had more than tmac. He was the anchor for a GOAT defense and title winning team. Near dynasty actually.

Where as tmac is a first round guy who lost when his teams were up big.

You're arent able to discern entertainment from impact.

Wallace's teams during his best years were far more well-rounded and non-injury riddled than T-Mac's.

[tpols]

He is rated accordingly... great player.

If the 80’s have Dominique Wilkins and 2010’s have Carmelo, the 2000’s have McGrady.
Not saying they have the same skills, talent or playing style. But they fall on the same level of greatness.



Yea but the difference is nobody says nique or melo were GOAT talents at their positions...

in fact both were voted most overrated lmao.

Anybody that says people "haven't seen peak tmac" here are the links...

'01 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgoAXIAtJSo)
'02 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VbcBkfokiI)
'04 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOAr6QpHzks)


we dont live in the stone age, its all on film, plain as day.

[RRR3]

03 McGrady is better than any version of Kobe and Tpols has never gotten over that. Still eats him up inside. Hey at least you can say Kobe’s way better on the GOAT list with McGrady.

[tpols]

03 McGrady is better than any version of Kobe and Tpols has never gotten over that. Still eats him up inside. Hey at least you can say Kobe’s way better on the GOAT list with McGrady.


McGrady's '03 run is interesting...

he blew a 3-1 lead in the first round, and in game 7... shot 7/24.

:eek:

It was like a fusion of '06 and '10 Kobe.

But Kobe has so many other runs to hang his hat on.

tmac was a compilation of his worst moments.

[LoneyROY7]

[QUOTE=RRR3]03 McGrady is better than any version of Kobe and Tpols has never gotten over that. Still eats him up inside. Hey at least you can say Kobe

[RRR3]

Do you actually read what you post? That's literally such a mind-numbingly atrocious take. :oldlol: :oldlol:
It’s really not. Check the stats you love so much when it comes to Harden. Unless you’re a hypocrite.

[tpols]

Do you actually read what you post? That's literally such a mind-numbingly atrocious take. :oldlol: :oldlol:


he's trying to get a rise... see through.

But im glad its brought up so we can establish context.

Watch the links, Tmac had trouble getting to the basket compared to other all time great guards.

He was a pull up specialist ala melo, but with better handles.

[RRR3]

McGrady's '03 run is interesting...

he blew a 3-1 lead in the first round, and in game 7... shot 7/24.

:eek:

It was like a fusion of '06 and '10 Kobe.

But Kobe has so many other runs to hang his hat on.

tmac was a compilation of his worst moments.
Kobe never had a team as trash a T-Mac did in the 03 playoffs in any of his playoff runs. Not even one. In fact he missed the playoffs with Lamar Odom and Caron Butler while in his prime, and while he did miss 16 games the Lakers had a better wining percentage when he sat out :eek:

[LoneyROY7]

It’s really not. Check the stats you love so much when it comes to Harden. Unless you’re a hypocrite.

Umm, Kobe at 24 years old was playing that mythical version '03 T-Mac and already KILLING him. The highlights are there for the world to see.

Can you imagine what a prime '06-'10 Kobe would do to him?

And as far as stats, Kobe has had far better years when you factor those stats in with his teams' success. The year Kobe dropped 35.4, his team won 8 more games in a LOADED Western Conference...T-Mac barely managed .500 in the East in his best season in Orlando. :lol

Tracy McGrady simply wasn't a team elevator. He never was.

[Kblaze8855]

Do you actually read what you post? That's literally such a mind-numbingly atrocious take. :oldlol: :oldlol:


You realize that millions of people who were adults at the time were watching Kobe put up 40ppg months and had Tmac as better while he did it?

You do not have any real grasp on 2003 from video clips in 2019. It straight up doesn

[stalkerforlife]

The east was TURRIBLE and he still couldn't get the Magic out of the first.

[tpols]

i mean i probably watched more basketball back then than i do now...

and specifically the nets and eastern conference.

I remember his hype, but always thought kidd and pierce were better, nevermind kobe, garnett, shaq, duncan etc.

Plenty of people have ridiculous takes then, now and forever, it doesnt mean anything as far as truth goes.

[RRR3]

T-Mac vs Kobe in 03


First game, Magic win

T-Mac: 38/6/9/2/1 on 54.2 TS%, 3 turnovers (~43 minutes)
Kobe: 38/10/4/1/2 on 51.7 TS%, 3 turnovers (~46 minutes)


Second game, Lakers win

T-Mac: 21/3/0/0/3 on 59.5 TS%, 1 turnover (only ~23 minutes due to blowout I imagine)
Kobe: 21/6/8/0/2 on 55.4 TS%, 8 turnovers (~34 minutes)



kObE wUz KiLlInG HiM

[LoneyROY7]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You realize that millions of people who were adults at the time were watching Kobe put up 40ppg months and had Tmac as better while he did it?

You do not have any real grasp on 2003 from video clips in 2019. It straight up doesn

[tpols]

watch the games... he couldnt get to the basket like kobe.

Kobe was hammering dunks, i dont think i saw one tmac dunk everything was a long pull up jumper.

He couldnt beat Kobe, but Kobe could beat him.


https://media.giphy.com/media/jTrTXqvfZV93cvAXcw/giphy.gif

[RRR3]

If Tpols wants to use head to head matchups I’m sure he agrees LeBron is better than Kobe :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Overrated because fanboys hang their hat on the "2003 season".

TMac was really good the year before that. His first year in Houston too.

https://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Tracy-McGrady-Dunks-on-Shawn-Bradley.gif

Fuuuck.

[LoneyROY7]

T-Mac vs Kobe in 03


First game, Magic win

T-Mac: 38/6/9/2/1 on 54.2 TS%, 3 turnovers (~43 minutes)
Kobe: 38/10/4/1/2 on 51.7 TS%, 3 turnovers (~46 minutes)


Second game, Lakers win

T-Mac: 21/3/0/0/3 on 59.5 TS%, 1 turnover (only ~23 minutes due to blowout I imagine)
Kobe: 21/6/8/0/2 on 55.4 TS%, 8 turnovers (~34 minutes)



kObE wUz KiLlInG HiM

You literally just ENDED your own argument. :oldlol: :oldlol:

So the first match-up Kobe had the same ppoints, more rebounds, and shot better....and in the 2nd match-up he had the same amount of points, but significantly more rebounds and assists.

This was 24 year-old Kobe, 3 YEARS OUT FROM HIS PRIME, against the mythical '03 T-Mac you just said was better than ANY version of Kobe.

Think about how stupid that is.

[RRR3]

You literally just ENDED your own argument. :oldlol: :oldlol:

So the first match-up Kobe had the same ppoints, more rebounds, and shot better....and in the 2nd match-up he had the same amount of points, but significantly more rebounds and assists.

This was 24 year-old Kobe, 3 YEARS OUT FROM HIS PRIME, against the mythical '03 T-Mac you just said was better than ANY version of Kobe.

Think about how stupid that is.
He was less efficient than T-Mac in the first matchup and lost despite having prime ****ing Shaq while T-Mac had garbage. Lmao at a Harden fan using FG% instead of TS%. He also had 8 turnovers in the second matchup which negates the assists in many ways.

Also :roll: at 03 not being prime Kobe. I’ve heard that argued as his best year.

[LoneyROY7]

[QUOTE=RRR3]He was less efficient than T-Mac in the first matchup and lost despite having prime ****ing Shaq while T-Mac had garbage. Lmao at a Harden fan using FG% instead of TS%. He also had 8 turnovers in the second matchup which negates the assists in many ways.

Also :roll: at 03 not being prime Kobe. I

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You think 2003 was prime Kobe??

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah, I'm good on this conversation. Jesus.

What's so funny?

2003 was his prime.

A lot of Kobe fans consider 2001-2010 his literal prime. And 2006-2008 his peak.

[LoneyROY7]

What's so funny?

2003 was his prime.

A lot of Kobe fans consider 2001-2010 his literal prime. And 2006-2008 his peak.

That's just saying Kobe had a long prime...2003 was not the best version of Kobe, as you mentioned yourself. I guess I could've rephrased and said "peak".

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

That's just saying Kobe had a long prime...2003 was not the best version of Kobe, as you mentioned yourself. I guess I could've rephrased and said "peak".

Well, he did have a long prime. Most ATG's do.

Far as peak is concerned? 2003 wasn't Kobe @ his best. I'd roll with 2006-2008. Gun to my head, 2006.

[Kblaze8855]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Do you realize how stupid you sound? There is ONE full game highlight clip of Walt Frazier (and he only has it b/c it includes Wilt) on youtube right now.

Meanwhile, tpols posted three full game highlights of the EXACT Orlando T_Mac vs Kobe match-up. It's not even remotely similar.

If you can't accept that one can glean A LOT from watching those full-game highlights (especially when it's a repeated head-to-head match-up), then you really are just a bitter old-head.




You think there’s one game of Walt Frazier online?

I’m gonna give you a moment to look into that....but I’ll give you a hint about the problem.

You think they aren’t there because you don’t look for them and don’t know how.

I had literally hours of Walt Frazier footage before YouTube even existed. And a tremendous amount is there now. There are even full games of Walt when he was on the Cavs.

The issue is the same as with all past era players young fans pretend they know the games of.....

Footage existing doesn’t mean they will look for it or pay attention to it or use it to learn a players game like the fans of his time did.

It’s a chore for you to even attempt.

You’re a bunch of know nothings watching highlights talking shit you aren’t qualified to have an opinion on.

You’re me in the 80s telling my uncle and his friends how good Elgin Baylor was and how ____ is better.

Just a dumb kid.

[tpols]

Well, he did have a long prime. Most ATG's do.

Far as peak is concerned? 2003 wasn't Kobe @ his best. I'd roll with 2006-2008. Gun to my head, 2006.


both their physical peaks coincided '01-'03... thats why their duels are so interesting.

I like tmac but he seems to get a pass on some big time playoff chokes.

[LoneyROY7]

You think there’s one game of Walt Frazier online?

I’m gonna give you a moment to look into that....but I’ll give you a hint about the problem.

You think they aren’t there because you don’t look for them and don’t know how.

I had literally hours of Walt Frazier footage before YouTube even existed. And a tremendous amount is there now. There are even full games of Walt when he was on the Cavs.

The issue is the same as with all past era players young fans pretend they know the games of.....

Footage existing doesn’t mean they will look for it or pay attention to it or use it to learn a players game like the fans of his time did.

It’s a chore for you to even attempt.

You’re a bunch of know nothings watching highlights talking shit you aren’t qualified to have an opinion on.

You’re me in the 80s telling my uncle and his friends how good Elgin Baylor was and how ____ is better.

Just a dumb kid.

Jesus. I started watching basketball consistently in the middle of the '05-'06 season...I was introduced right when Kobe was hitting his peak. Guess who was also just 2 years removed from his mythical 2003 state? Tracy Mcgrady.

I saw McGrady all through out his Houston days, so by me watching a SIGNIFICANT of amount of McGrady Orlando vids (and I've watched a lot of them), I think it's pretty fair to say I can relatively grasp his game and how he would stack up against the rest.

[RRR3]

You think 2003 was prime Kobe??

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah, I'm good on this conversation. Jesus.
Damn, Kobe had the shortest prime of any top 25 all time great then I guess.

[NBAGOAT]

There

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

both their physical peaks coincided '01-'03... thats why their duels are so interesting.

I like tmac but he seems to get a pass on some big time playoff chokes.

For sure.

Kobe was better but its not crazy to think TMac was...on his level. Or that you couldn't argue in his favor. Would've been interesting to see what Mcgrady could do w/ Phil and Shaq.

People talking in absolutes either way are crazy. Or just biased as hell.

A bit OT, but I think Kobe separated himself from the AI, VC, and TMac types into the 2006 season. From there on...the debate was dunzo.

[LoneyROY7]

Damn, Kobe had the shortest prime of any top 25 all time great then I guess.

You said ANY VERSION of Kobe, bud. 2003 is not the best version of Kobe. That's not even debatable.

[tpols]

For sure.

Kobe was better but its not crazy to think TMac was...on his level. Or that you couldn't argue in his favor. Would've been interesting to see what Mcgrady could do w/ Phil and Shaq.

People talking in absolutes either way are crazy. Or just biased as hell.

A bit OT, but I think Kobe separated himself from the AI, VC, and TMac types into the 2006 season. From there on...the debate was dunzo.


yup...

AI had the speed but was too small to be a GOAT.

tmac and VC had the dunking and aesthetics and midrange game but couldnt slash slice and dice like kobe.

and obviously kobe was a GOAT midrange guy, but people really have forgotten his slashing and finishing ability.

it was absolutely next level agility, body control, and versatility.

[RRR3]

You said ANY VERSION of Kobe, bud. 2003 is not the best version of Kobe. That's not even debatable.
From two very respectable posters:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8164607&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13625130&postcount=1


Not even debatable doeeeee

[Kblaze8855]

Jesus. I started watching basketball consistently in the middle of the '05-'06 season...I was introduced right when Kobe was hitting his peak. Guess who was also just 2 years removed from his mythical 2003 state? Tracy Mcgrady.

I saw McGrady all through out his Houston days, so by me watching a SIGNIFICANT of amount of McGrady Orlando vids (and I've watched a lot of them), I think it's pretty fair to say I can relatively grasp his game and how he would stack up against the rest.


It

[Vino24]

Kobe, Tmac, Pierce are all on the same level

[ILLsmak]

Jesus. I started watching basketball consistently in the middle of the '05-'06 season...I was introduced right when Kobe was hitting his peak. Guess who was also just 2 years removed from his mythical 2003 state? Tracy Mcgrady.

I saw McGrady all through out his Houston days, so by me watching a SIGNIFICANT of amount of McGrady Orlando vids (and I've watched a lot of them), I think it's pretty fair to say I can relatively grasp his game and how he would stack up against the rest.


you're just biased. haha, I dunno why you have bias against t-mac, but you've shown obvious bias in near every other discussion, so one can assume you are probably biased in this one.

You're making Kblaze upset. haha.

T-Mac was really good. Better than Kobe? It's debatable. It's something people say to troll Kobe people. It's like me saying I'm really good looking or a genius, it might not be true but it's not so far removed from reality that it doesn't piss people off. Good thing I don't do that anymore. Ha.

But really T-Mac did change. He got injured. He wasn't really cut out for the game, probably, in terms of the grueling aspect of it. He was just a natural talent that loved to ball out. IMO. He was cold blooded but he wasn't like a cut your throat assassin, still that one shake he did on Kobe was nasty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYFc8u42vM you know Kobe took that to heart. It's not really about who is better, but I mean let's not act like T-mac isn't an all time great talent.

Edit: think of tmacs quickness, esp later, as in a box. He's really quick at getting to spots and getting off shots. He just stopped slashing as much for some reason. Prol injury.

-Smak

[LoneyROY7]

From two very respectable posters:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8164607&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13625130&postcount=1


Not even debatable doeeeee

Like I said, if you believe 2003 Kobe is his peak, I'd rather refrain from the continuing this conversation any further.

You keep trying to reference other posters. How about you answer. Is 2003 Kobe's peak? Yes or no?

[RRR3]

Like I said, if you believe 2003 Kobe is his peak, I'd rather refrain from the continuing this conversation any further.

You keep trying to reference other posters. How about you answer. Is 2003 Kobe's peak? Yes or no?
According to BPM and VORP it is :cheers:

[LoneyROY7]

According to BPM and VORP it is :cheers:

And you still can't answer it straight because you know it isn't true.

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[RRR3]

And you still can't answer it straight because you know it isn't true.

:oldlol: :oldlol:
Nice assumption. I wasn’t watching Kobe back then so I won’t comment on his peak but 2003 has a great case for being his best season. And T-Mac was even better :eek:

[LoneyROY7]

[QUOTE=RRR3]Nice assumption. I wasn

[SouBeachTalents]

T-Mac played 24 year old Kobe to a STANDSTILL. He wasn't even better. :lol :lol
McGrady was 23

[RRR3]

T-Mac played 24 year old Kobe to a STANDSTILL. He wasn't even better. :lol :lol
Beat Kobe+prime Shaq head to head with trash can teammates

McGawdy

[LoneyROY7]

McGrady was 23

You're right. He must've been unstoppable at 27-28 like Kobe. :eek:

:yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy:

[RRR3]

You're right. He must've been unstoppable at 27-28 like Kobe. :eek:

:yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy:
Yeah too bad he got injured so we never found out how great he could have been.

[LoneyROY7]

Yeah too bad he got injured so we never found out how great he could have been.

There was no notable injury until 2008 when he got his first knee surgery. He had only complained of some back soreness up until to that point and his game ALREADY started dropping off the map.

T-Mac just didn't the have consistency in his game.

[RRR3]

There was no notable injury until 2008 when he got his first knee surgery. He had only complained of some back soreness up until to that point and his game ALREADY started dropping off the map.

T-Mac just didn't the have consistency in his game.
He had scoliosis you absolute clown. Iirc doctors thought he’d have a short career because of it.

And yeah he played just 47 games in 2006 because of a “minor injury”. Sure, chief.

[LoneyROY7]

The funny thing is I'm not even a Kobe stan like that, but jesus is he SOO MUCH easier to build an argument around than someone like Tracy McGrady. The facts and evidence is right in front of your face. It's undeniable.

Meanwhile, a T-Mac fan literally has to pin their ENTIRE fanhood on a single season. A single season in which he didn't get past the first round. That's just miserable.

[RRR3]

No ones saying T-Mac>Kobe all time doe. Lots of players arguably peaked higher than Kobe.

[LoneyROY7]

No ones saying T-Mac>Kobe all time doe. Lots of players arguably peaked higher than Kobe.

Unfortunately, T-Mac wasn't one of those players.

[RRR3]

Unfortunately, T-Mac wasn't one of those players.
Kblaze obviously thinks its arguable. Gonna listen to him over someone who just likes hating on T-Mac :cheers:

[LoneyROY7]

Kblaze obviously thinks its arguable. Gonna listen to him over someone who just likes hating on T-Mac :cheers:

It's pretty funny/sad that you constantly need someone else's approval or opinion to rationalize your own.

[RRR3]

You acted like what I said earlier was crazy and no one would support it. I’m proving you wrong.

Here’s another thread discussing how crazy Kobe was in 03

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322696

[LoneyROY7]

[QUOTE=RRR3]You acted like what I said earlier was crazy and no one would support it. I