What specific skills made MJ better than Lebron

[3ball]

- pure jump shooter
- post game and turnaround jumper
- footwork and fakes
- much better drop-step
- didn't need live dribble - footwork allowed domination from the triple-threat or off-ball/off-the-catch
- combo leaper - goat-level off both 1 and 2 feet
- clutch - much better frequency of playoff game-winners, high-leverage game winners (late in series or in Finals), much better stats in last 5 min or 1 min of tight games

- more versatile, less exploitable offensive player - i.e. had skills to dominate on-ball and off-ball (not just on-ball), thereby fitting with more player types and allowing the best brand of ball (ball movement)

- Better defender of PG's and SG's, better man defender, better in passing lanes, better defensive leader/example/culture/accountability


Anything else?
.

[LoneyROY7]

How do you manage to make the same damn thread over and over? Don't you get bored?

Take a break, champ.

[sdot_thadon]

How do you manage to make the same damn thread over and over? Don't you get bored?

Take a break, champ.
same

[Kblaze8855]

Handles isn

[3ball]

How do you manage to make the same damn thread over and over? Don't you get bored?

Take a break, champ.
I've never made this thread before asking what specific skills made MJ better

i.e. turnaround jumper, etc

[LoneyROY7]

I've never made this thread before asking what specific skills made MJ better

i.e. turnaround jumper, etc

Yeah 3ball, you've never made a thread about what you think makes MJ better than LeBron.

:kobe:

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah 3ball, you've never made a thread about what you think makes MJ better than LeBron.

:kobe:
:oldlol:

[TheMan]

Bron is obviously bigger and probably stronger (though MJ was no slouch), MJ was quicker and faster, GOAT first step. MJ had more hang time when shooting in traffic, LeBron is a great finisher at the rim mainly because of his strength, MJ was way better at changing his shot in mid air since he was more agile. MJ is agile and strong, LeBron is just stronger (hence people say he bullies his way to the rim). LeBron is incredibly agile and quick for his size but vs MJ, he isn't as agile nor quick. MJ is more skilled offensively overall, LeBron is the better passer since that's a main component of his game, MJ was also an elite passer but he wasn't as willing a passer as LeBron. MJ is arguably the GOAT mid range shooter, thats not one of LeBron's best assets, LeBron worked on his 3pt shot to become respectable, MJ didn't look for the 3 pt shot as much but he was ok there too, edge LBJ, LeBron has a decent post up game but IMO he should be better because of his size and strength, MJ had that unstoppable fade away jumper, MJ gets the nod here...defensively, LeBron could defend more positions, especially today since there is a definite lack of quality big men, better at coming from behind to stuff your shot but MJ is the better pocket picker and man to man defender, MJ was also the better help defender, loved to slack off his man and block big men from behind. LeBron is the better rebounder but not by much, but because of his position and height, he gets the nod here. MJ was durable, one year in 86 where he missed most of the season but aside from that, hardly took any time off because of injury, even into his mid 30s but LeBron is a fukking machine, only just recently missed considerable time because of injury but that happened going into his mid 30s...edge here to LBJ.

Where I truly think MJ separates himself from almost everyone is his mentallity, his much talked about almost obsessive will to win, LeBron is just a bit too passive IMO. Few players I've seen could match MJ in this department, Bird is one of them, also Magic (don't let his friendly demeanor fool you) and Kobe. I can't opine on players I haven't seen. This is where Shaq could've been the GOAT had he had this kind of mentallity but he was a bit aloof, even when he was wrecking the league in the mid to late 90s/early 2000s.

James has had some highs almost or equal to MJ but he also had some lows that MJ never or rarely had.

I have a beef with LeBron's playing style, especially how much he needs the ball to be effective but no trolling, he is one of the GOATs, no question about it. Most def a top 5 GOAT and possibly ends up top 3 depending on the next few seasons but peak vs peak honestly MJ > LBJ.

[TheMan]

My post was long because I wanted to give both players their props...and give my honest assessment of both of them, but watch the LeBron trolls try to shit talk my post. :facepalm

[Wally450]

:sleeping :sleeping :sleeping

[BigKobeFan]

Alpha male personality.

[SouBeachTalents]

Bron is obviously bigger and probably stronger (though MJ was no slouch), MJ was quicker and faster, GOAT first step. MJ had more hang time when shooting in traffic, LeBron is a great finisher at the rim mainly because of his strength, MJ was way better at changing his shot in mid air since he was more agile. MJ is agile and strong, LeBron is just stronger (hence people say he bullies his way to the rim). MJ is more skilled offensively overall, LeBron is the better passer since that's a main component of his game, MJ was also an elite passer but he wasn't as willing a passer as LeBron. MJ is arguably the GOAT mid range shooter, thats not one of LeBron's best assets, LeBron worked on his 3pt shot to become respectable, MJ didn't look for the 3 pt shot as much but he was ok there too, edge LBJ, LeBron has a decent post up game but IMO he should be better because of gis size and strength, MJ had that unstoppable fade away jumper, MJ gets the nod here...defensively, LeBron could defend more pisitions, especially today since there is a definite lack of quality big men, better at coming from behind to stuff your shot but MJ is the better pocket picker and man to man defender, MJ was also the better help defender, loved to slack off his man and block big men from behind. LeBron is the better rebounder but not by much, but because of his position and height, he gets the nod here. MJ was durable, one year in 86 where he missed most of the season but aside from that, hardly took any time of because of injury, even into his mid 30s but LeBron is a fukking machine, only just recently missed considerable time because of injury but that happened going into his mid 30s...edge here to LBJ.

Where I truly think MJ separates himself from almost everyone is his mentallity, his much talked about almost obsessive will to win, LeBron is just a bit too passive IMO. Few players I've seen could match MJ in this department, Bird is one of them, also Magic (don't let his friendly demeanor fool you) and Kobe. I can't opine on players I haven't seen. This is where Shaq could've been the GOAT had he had this kind of mentallity but he was a bit aloof, even when he was wrecking the league in the mid to late 90s/early 2000s.

James has had some highs almost or equal to MJ but he also had some lows that MJ never or rarely had.

I have a beef with LeBron's playing style, especially how much he needs the ball to be effective but no trolling, he is one of the GOATs, no question about it. Most def a top 5 GOAT and possibly ends up top 3 depending on the next few seasons but peak vs peak honestly MJ > LBJ.
Bolded is exactly how I'd describe it too. Jordan obviously never came close to having a series as utterly horrific as 2011, nor did he ever play as badly as LeBron did in the '07 Finals, or at times against Boston in '08 & '10.

Imo, LeBron was on Jordan's level from 2012-18. Even if you think Jordan was better, they were basically on the same tier as players

[3ball]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Handles isn

[TheMan]

Bolded is exactly how I'd describe it too. Jordan obviously never came close to having a series as utterly horrific as 2011, nor did he ever play as badly as LeBron did in the '07 Finals, or at times against Boston in '08 & '10.

Imo, LeBron was on Jordan's level from 2012-18. Even if you think Jordan was better, they were basically on the same tier as players
I agree with that, but what seperates both players is James had some really awful series whereas MJ had some bad games but he rarely had a series where you can point and say, he's the reason the Bulls lost (95 but he was coming off a 2 year retirement, I mean, really)...2011 Finals for James was NBA historically bad, I tend to give LBJ a pass for 2007 because its his first Finals and he was young. Props to him for coming back strong after the 2011 fiasco though.

[Phoenix]

That gif of him navigating the paint against Detroit harkens back to why D-Wade typically played better against the big 3 Celtics than Kobe and Lebron. He was the best slasher of the 3 in terms of nimbleness, herky-jerky and change of pace in traffic. Lebron at his peak was more of a line drive slasher and needed more picks to separate himself from the defender. MJ had a more effective first step and being a better 2-foot jumper, was able to hop step, gather and explode from distance without needing a runway to the basket to build up enough momentum.

[KobesFinger]

3ball, what specific skills does LeBron have that are better than Jordan?

[3ball]

My post was long because I wanted to give both players their props...and give my honest assessment of both of them, but watch the LeBron trolls try to shit talk my post. :facepalm
maybe lebron is top 5 in some people's eyes, but too many guys have clear-cut arguments against him for him to be clear-cut top 5

Duncan has more rings - so does magic, Shaq, and Kareem - that's 4 guys right there, plus MJ that have a clear-cut argument - this prevents him from being clear-cut top 5.. Other guys can make some claims too - Kobe has equal or more rings and organic teamwork, ditto Bird, Russell, etc

Btw, lebron isn't a "willing" passer - his skillset simply limits him to ball-dominance - he needs an excessive live dribble to get assists

Otoh, MJ could get dimes without a live dribble like Bird, or with a live dribble like Lebron, but not an excessive live dribble that lebron needs.. lebron got less assists than MJ's best assist totals on-ball (PG in 89'), or "off-ball" as a non-pg (91' Finals)..

I have lebron much lower because history shows that even though his CP3/Nash skillset is impressive for a 6'8" guy, it's still a CP3/Nash skillset... :confusedshrug:... and therefore can't win rings without extra talent to offset the weaker teamwork inherent in that style..

Sorry, but a CP3 Nash skillset that marginalizes some teammates cannot be too 5
.

[Vino24]

LeBron was a worse shooter but has more clutch shots and total points. How?

[3ball]

3ball, what specific skills does LeBron have that are better than Jordan?
He's better at flairing out on the wing and catching a pass or slashing up the middle and stiff-arming...

Oh wait....:facepalm ... I thought you meant football... In basketball, nothing..

maybe defensive rebounding but lebron is in the frontcourt..

no way passing because lebron isn't a "willing" passer - his skillset simply limits him to ball-dominance - he needs an excessive live dribble to get assists and stats

Otoh, MJ could get dimes without a live dribble like Bird, or with a live dribble like Lebron, but not an excessive live dribble that lebron needs.. lebron got less assists than MJ's best assist totals on-ball (PG in 89'), or "off-ball" as a non-pg (91' Finals)..
.

[SouBeachTalents]

He's better at flairing out on the wing and catching a pass or slashing up the middle and stiff-arming...

Oh wait....:facepalm ... I thought you meant football... In basketball, nothing..

maybe defensive rebounding but lebron is in the frontcourt..

no way passing because lebron isn't a "willing" passer - his skillset simply limits him to ball-dominance - he needs an excessive live dribble to get assists and stats

Otoh, MJ could get dimes without a live dribble like Bird, or with a live dribble like Lebron, but not an excessive live dribble that lebron needs.. lebron got less assists than MJ's best assist totals on-ball (PG in 89'), or "off-ball" as a non-pg (91' Finals)..
.
Lmao, so there's literally nothing LeBron is better at than Jordan

Ok bruh :lol

[3ball]

I agree with that, but what seperates both players is James had some really awful series whereas MJ had some bad games but he rarely had a series where you can point and say, he's the reason the Bulls lost (95 but he was coming off a 2 year retirement, I mean, really)...2011 Finals for James was NBA historically bad, I tend to give LBJ a pass for 2007 because its his first Finals and he was young. Props to him for coming back strong after the 2011 fiasco though.


Can Lebron play off-ball?

So what separates the 2 players isn't just bad performances, it's skills - lebron can't play off-ball or shoot like MJ, so he can't fit with as many player types as MJ and has weaker teams.. i.e. MJ wouldn't have a weak underdog in 2016 with Kyrie/Love, while Curry wins 70 with Klay/Dray, or Kawhi with Lamarcus..

Also, didn't magic goat the Finals at age 20? And didn't 23-year old MJ break the playoff record against the champs and #1 defense in 86'?.. So why should 22-year Lebron get a pass for 07'??.. :biggums:

And props for doing what he was supposed to in 12'? What about 2014?.. Surely that's a black mark.. overall, 2/4 in Miami falls short of the "not 6, not 7" expectation
.

[TheMan]

Lmao, so there's literally nothing LeBron is better at than Jordan

Ok bruh :lol
This is where 3ball loses a lot of people, he just can't admit that James is better at some things than MJ :lol

Thats why Bran stans say he comes off as insecure, and as an MJ fan myself, I agree.

3ball, MJ is still consensus GOAT, you CAN give LBJ props, that won't affect the GOAT standings at all...at least try it sometime :oldlol:

[TheMan]

Can Lebron play off-ball?

So what separates the 2 players isn't just bad performances, it's skills - lebron can't play off-ball or shoot like MJ, so he can't fit with as many player types as MJ and has weaker teams.. i.e. MJ wouldn't have a weak underdog in 2016 with Kyrie/Love, while Curry wins 70 with Klay/Dray, or Kawhi with Lamarcus..

Also, didn't magic goat the Finals at age 20? And didn't 23-year old MJ break the playoff record against the champs and #1 defense in 86'?.. So why should 22-year Lebron get a pass for 07'??.. :biggums:

And props for doing what he was supposed to in 12'? What about 2014?.. Surely that's a black mark
I clearly wrote that MJ's overall skill set was better than James :confusedshrug:

James also balled in some of the series he lost, at least be honest. MJ also had some series where he was clearly the best player on the court but lost, James too...

Don't make defend LeBron, dude, just because you can't be a bit unbiased.

[TheMan]

LeBron was a worse shooter but has more clutch shots and total points. How?
How many more playoffs series does he have? He also has more turnovers and missed shots, games and series lost...

Thank you.

[3ball]

This is where 3ball loses a lot of people, he just can't admit that James is better at some things than MJ :lol

Thats why Bran stans say he comes off as insecure, and as an MJ fan myself, I agree.

3ball, MJ is still consensus GOAT, you CAN give LBJ props, that won't affect the GOAT standings at all...at least try it sometime :oldlol:
I honestly don't think there's a single thing lebron does better on a basketball court

It isn't insecurity; it's "hey guys, look what I know".. it's like talking about global warming

[Kblaze8855]

This is where 3ball loses a lot of people, he just can't admit that James is better at some things than MJ :lol

Thats why Bran stans say he comes off as insecure, and as an MJ fan myself, I agree.

3ball, MJ is still consensus GOAT, you CAN give LBJ props, that won't affect the GOAT standings at all...at least try it sometime :oldlol:


It

[Vino24]

How many more playoffs series does he have? He also has more turnovers and missed shots, games and series lost...

Thank you.
Should LeBron have taken two years off in his prime for load management? Thank you.

[3ball]

I clearly wrote that MJ's overall skill set was better than James :confusedshrug:

James also balled in some of the series he lost, at least be honest. MJ also had some series where he was clearly the best player on the court but lost, James too...

Don't make defend LeBron, dude, just because you can't be a bit unbiased.
Lebron and MJ both had big stats in losses, but the difference is that lebron's weaknesses still get exploited late in his career, so he loses alongside superstars, whereas mj's weaknesses (i.e. trigger-happiness) was only exploited for his first 3 years or so - after that, he executed underdog-carry-jobs against Detroit and then never lost once Pippen became viable

[3ball]

It’s where he hits the tipping point between fan and troll sometimes. LeBron’s passing versus Jordan isn’t something really worth discussing. LeBron is the better passer but so are a lot of wings.

Penny was a better passer than Jordan. So was Manu. It doesn’t mean they are better at basketball.


When did Manu or Penny average 30/9/11 at PG like MJ did? Or 33/8/8?

Penny's high was 22/6/7.. Manu's 18/5/5 or some shit

If MJ played point guard like Penny did, or if his skillset limited him to PG like Lebron, he would easily average more assists than both

And MJ's assists are more impressive on video - making quick, unpredictable passes and threading needles as required by no spacing environments

[tpols]

Its hard to say lebrons passing is better than Jordan's because of how he limits his teams total assist capacity (and teamwork) with it. Its like an oxymoron.

[3ball]

Its hard to say lebrons passing is better than Jordan's because of how he limits his teams total assist capacity (and teamwork) with it. Its like an oxymoron.


And there you have it folks

[sdot_thadon]

Its hard to say lebrons passing is better than Jordan's because of how he limits his teams total assist capacity (and teamwork) with it. Its like an oxymoron.
I don't understand this line of thinking at all, lets try it again.

Its hard to say Jordan's(kobe's) scoring is better than Lebron's because of how he limits his teams total scoring capacity (and available field goal attempts) with it. Its like an oxymoron.

If the above also holds true, I applaud you.:applause:

[Manny98]

Bron is obviously bigger and probably stronger (though MJ was no slouch), MJ was quicker and faster, GOAT first step. MJ had more hang time when shooting in traffic, LeBron is a great finisher at the rim mainly because of his strength, MJ was way better at changing his shot in mid air since he was more agile. MJ is agile and strong, LeBron is just stronger (hence people say he bullies his way to the rim). LeBron is incredibly agile and quick for his size but vs MJ, he isn't as agile nor quick. MJ is more skilled offensively overall, LeBron is the better passer since that's a main component of his game, MJ was also an elite passer but he wasn't as willing a passer as LeBron. MJ is arguably the GOAT mid range shooter, thats not one of LeBron's best assets, LeBron worked on his 3pt shot to become respectable, MJ didn't look for the 3 pt shot as much but he was ok there too, edge LBJ, LeBron has a decent post up game but IMO he should be better because of his size and strength, MJ had that unstoppable fade away jumper, MJ gets the nod here...defensively, LeBron could defend more positions, especially today since there is a definite lack of quality big men, better at coming from behind to stuff your shot but MJ is the better pocket picker and man to man defender, MJ was also the better help defender, loved to slack off his man and block big men from behind. LeBron is the better rebounder but not by much, but because of his position and height, he gets the nod here. MJ was durable, one year in 86 where he missed most of the season but aside from that, hardly took any time off because of injury, even into his mid 30s but LeBron is a fukking machine, only just recently missed considerable time because of injury but that happened going into his mid 30s...edge here to LBJ.

Where I truly think MJ separates himself from almost everyone is his mentallity, his much talked about almost obsessive will to win, LeBron is just a bit too passive IMO. Few players I've seen could match MJ in this department, Bird is one of them, also Magic (don't let his friendly demeanor fool you) and Kobe. I can't opine on players I haven't seen. This is where Shaq could've been the GOAT had he had this kind of mentallity but he was a bit aloof, even when he was wrecking the league in the mid to late 90s/early 2000s.

James has had some highs almost or equal to MJ but he also had some lows that MJ never or rarely had.

I have a beef with LeBron's playing style, especially how much he needs the ball to be effective but no trolling, he is one of the GOATs, no question about it. Most def a top 5 GOAT and possibly ends up top 3 depending on the next few seasons but peak vs peak honestly MJ > LBJ.
Except Jordan is not a better help defender than LeBron and LeBron is miles better as a passer :no:

I guess Jordan wins in jumpshooting and on ball defense

[tpols]

I don't understand this line of thinking at all, lets try it again.

Its hard to say Jordan's(kobe's) scoring is better than Lebron's because of how he limits his teams total scoring capacity (and available field goal attempts) with it. Its like an oxymoron.

If the above also holds true, I applaud you.:applause:


you might be clinically retarded.

Jordans best teams, with his scoring, always finished as elite offenses.

LeBron's best teams, with his passing, often did not finish as top total assist teams.

Being a monopolizer doesnt necessarily make one a better passer.

[Keno]

Lebron is better than Jordan in all aspects of basketball including scoring, truth hurts.

[sdot_thadon]

you might be clinically retarded.

Jordans best teams, with his scoring, always finished as elite offenses.

LeBron's best teams, with his passing, often did not finish as top total assist teams.

Being a monopolizer doesnt necessarily make one a better passer.
Nah i think in process of attempting condescension you missed the entire point. Mj and Lebron have both led elite offenses, so that reply is an asinine one.

It's the same exact shit, you don't see a problem with the best scorer on a team gobbling up the most shots. And I don't see a problem with the teams best playmaker gobbling up all the assists. If Lebron's style led to putrid offenses instead of alltime great ones you'd have a great point, reality is you don't .

[tpols]

Nah i think in process of attempting condescension you missed the entire point. Mj and Lebron have both led elite offenses, so that reply is an asinine one.

It's the same exact shit, you don't see a problem with the best scorer on a team gobbling up the most shots. And I don't see a problem with the teams best playmaker gobbling up all the assists. If Lebron's style led to putrid offenses instead of alltime great ones you'd have a great point, reality is you don't .


The best all time offenses are a combination of top offensive rank and top team assist total.

Bird's Celtics, Magic's lakers, Jordan's Bulls, Kobe's Lakers, Curry's warriors, old spurs, etc. all fullfilled these requirements.

Lebron's teams did not and relied on him playing primary QB.. that he forced even when he had overwhelming talent beside him.. which is much less exhausting to an opposing defense than a team that employs a full squad attack.

Thats why Lebron's teams have lost by record margin many times, and are two single shots away from being 1-9.

[sdot_thadon]

The best all time offenses are a combination of top offensive rank and top team assist total.
Sure, if you're going to build you own criteria to fit your needs go ahead. I'm pretty sure offensive rating and other advanced metrics will tell you other wise.



Bird's Celtics, Magic's lakers, Jordan's Bulls, Kobe's Lakers, Curry's warriors, old spurs, etc. all fullfilled these requirements.

Lebron's teams did not and relied on him playing primary QB.. that he forced even when he had overwhelming talent beside him.. which is much less exhausting to an opposing defense than a team that employs a full squad attack.

Thats why Lebron's teams have lost by record margin many times, and are two single shots away from being 1-9.
Lebron's offenses relied on one of the greatest playmakers ever doing that a large portion of time. MJ's offenses relied on one of the greatest scorers ever doing that a large portion of time. Sounds like a case of personal taste to be honest, but it makes it no less the same thing.:no:

[Vino24]

MJ was better at load management. He pioneered it

[StrongLurk]

Fundamentals.

[Elosha]

Should LeBron have taken two years off in his prime for load management? Thank you.

No but LeBron might be excused for taking time off if his mother was brutally shot and murdered. That's what happened to MJ's dad. That's the real reason he retired, to try to make MLB in memory of his dad.

[sd3035]

Lebron's better at flopping and making passive aggressive tweets

[Elosha]

MJ was better at load management. He pioneered it

Utter BS and drivel.

[TheMan]

Except Jordan is not a better help defender than LeBron and LeBron is miles better as a passer :no:

I guess Jordan wins in jumpshooting and on ball defense
LeBron is a GOAT passer, MJ is also an elite passer but I wouldn't say he's miles better. Look at what MJ did when asked to play the point for almost a month in 89, averaged double digits in assists.

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[GimmeThat]

well i've compared their Internet Movie Data Base profiles, and no clear evidence of MJ having better skills than Lebron was found

[3ball]

Nah i think in process of attempting condescension you missed the entire point. Mj and Lebron have both led elite offenses, so that reply is an asinine one.

It's the same exact shit, you don't see a problem with the best scorer on a team gobbling up the most shots. And I don't see a problem with the teams best playmaker gobbling up all the assists. If Lebron's style led to putrid offenses instead of alltime great ones you'd have a great point, reality is you don't .


Lebron's offenses (team ORtg) were only elite in a given season (i.e. ranked #3 in the league)

They weren't elite all-time.. there's a difference between #3 in the league and #3 all-time

Lebron's offenses peaked with the #26 all-time ortg in 2017, and #46 in 2016.. (so that's zero top 20 offenses).. Lebron has no other offenses in the top 75

Jordan's team (ORtg) peaked at #2 all-time in 1992... It was also #6, 12 and #16 all-time (the most top 10 and top 20 offenses ever)

Lebron's attempt to replace inexploitable ball movement with his exploitable CP3 style ball-dominance simply results in inferior offenses and teams than skillsets that can get stats while the ball moves (Bird, MJ, Curry, etc)

[Indian guy]

MJ's more varied offensive skill-set meant he could combat different coverages more effectively. He could also sustain an attack longer because he was a threat from everywhere. Thus, fewer sub-par series' for MJ and fewer 'downtimes' during the course of a game.

The other difference is mental. MJ was fearless and uber-competitive. Didn't care if he missed 15 shots in a row. He still attacked relentlessly without any drop in confidence. Only a handful of players in NBA history you could say that about. LeBron's more prone to human shortcomings on occasion (self-doubt/fear of failure).

[3ball]

The other difference is mental. MJ was fearless and uber-competitive. Didn't care if he missed 15 shots in a row. He still attacked relentlessly without any drop in confidence. Only a handful of players in NBA history you could say that about. LeBron's more prone to human shortcomings on occasion (self-doubt/fear of failure).


Jordan's fearlessness was contagious - so his teammates sought their "Jordan moment" and never missed in the playoffs when he passed to them for the last shot

Otoh, lebron's self-doubt is contagious, so guys like Korver and Donyell Marshall are bricking shit left and right with the game on the line



MJ's more varied offensive skill-set meant he could combat different coverages more effectively. He could also sustain an attack longer because he was a threat from everywhere. Thus, fewer sub-par series' for MJ and fewer 'downtimes' during the course of a game.


Only MJ was goat level in all 3 primary aspects of offense:

- all-time post player
- all-time PG player
- all-time off-ball

[Round Mound]

Lateral movement too. MJ was the goat in lateral movement. Hell, even Barkley had better feet and lateral movement than Lebron.

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron's offenses (team ORtg) were only elite in a given season (i.e. ranked #3 in the league)

They weren't elite all-time.. there's a difference between #3 in the league and #3 all-time

Lebron's offenses peaked with the #26 all-time ortg in 2017, and #46 in 2016.. (so that's zero top 20 offenses).. Lebron has no other offenses in the top 75

Jordan's team (ORtg) peaked at #2 all-time in 1992... It was also #6, 12 and #16 all-time (the most top 10 and top 20 offenses ever)

Lebron's attempt to replace inexploitable ball movement with his exploitable CP3 style ball-dominance simply results in inferior offenses and teams than skillsets that can get stats while the ball moves (Bird, MJ, Curry, etc)
what's your source for those figures? and you really deleted and reposted this same reply?:wtf: :biggums:

[3ball]

what's your source for those figures? and you really deleted and reposted this same reply?:wtf: :biggums:
Basketball-reference.com is the source

Top Team ORtg all-time:

1) 87' LAL 115.6
1) 17' GSW 115.6
2) 92' CHI 115.5


26) 17' Cavs 113.6



Again, Lebron's offenses (team ORtg) were only elite in a given season (i.e. ranked #3 in the league)

They weren't elite all-time.. there's a difference between #3 in the league and #3 all-time

Lebron's offenses peaked with the #26 all-time ortg in 2017, and #46 in 2016.. (so that's zero top 20 offenses).. Lebron has no other offenses in the top 75

Jordan's team (ORtg) peaked at #2 all-time in 1992... It was also #6, 12 and #16 all-time (the most top 10 and top 20 offenses ever)

Lebron's attempt to replace inexploitable ball movement with his exploitable CP3 style ball-dominance simply results in inferior offenses and teams than skillsets that can get stats while the ball moves (Bird, MJ, Curry, etc)

[sdot_thadon]

Basketball-reference.com is the source

Top Team ORtg all-time:

1) 87' LAL 115.6
1) 17' GSW 115.6
2) 92' CHI 115.5


26) 17' Cavs 113.6



Again, Lebron's offenses (team ORtg) were only elite in a given season (i.e. ranked #3 in the league)

They weren't elite all-time.. there's a difference between #3 in the league and #3 all-time

Lebron's offenses peaked with the #26 all-time ortg in 2017, and #46 in 2016.. (so that's zero top 20 offenses).. Lebron has no other offenses in the top 75

Jordan's team (ORtg) peaked at #2 all-time in 1992... It was also #6, 12 and #16 all-time (the most top 10 and top 20 offenses ever)

Lebron's attempt to replace inexploitable ball movement with his exploitable CP3 style ball-dominance simply results in inferior offenses and teams than skillsets that can get stats while the ball moves (Bird, MJ, Curry, etc)
Good, thought so, now go check them for the post season and keep that same energy......

[3ball]

Good, thought so, now go check them for the post season and keep that same energy......
The 18' Cavs swept the 18' Raptors and then GOT swept by the Warriors - so what would happen if the Warriors played the Raptors??? - an epic massacre no doubt..

But the 18' Cavs achieved a 127 ORtg against the Raptors, so I guess they have a better offense than the 18' Warriors, who never reached that high??.. Obviously not, but your logic of using playoff ORtg's as standard for the team's true offensive caliber says the Cavs' offense > Warriors.

That's why regular season ORtg against the same comp and over a large sample size has always been the standard for team ORtg and DRtg

So again, Lebron's offenses (team ORtg) were only elite in a given season (i.e. ranked #3 in the league)

They weren't elite all-time.. there's a difference between #3 in the league and #3 all-time

[sdot_thadon]

The 18' Cavs swept the 18' Raptors and then GOT swept by the Warriors - so what would happen if the Warriors played the Raptors??? - an epic massacre no doubt..

But the 18' Cavs achieved a 127 ORtg against the Raptors, so I guess they have a better offense than the 18' Warriors, who never reached that high??.. Obviously not, but your logic of using playoff ORtg's as standard for the team's true offensive caliber says the Cavs' offense > Warriors.

That's why regular season ORtg against the same comp and over a large sample size has always been the standard for team ORtg and DRtg

So again, Lebron's offenses (team ORtg) were only elite in a given season (i.e. ranked #3 in the league)

They weren't elite all-time.. there's a difference between #3 in the league and #3 all-time
Guess that's grounds for throwing all playoff stats out the window then isn't it? Just another reason you continue to be a bad joke. Get some new material, waka waka indeed.
https://i.postimg.cc/5Y8wpLs5/Gray-Exalted-Cod-small-1.gif (https://postimg.cc/5Y8wpLs5)

[3ball]

Guess that's grounds for throwing all playoff stats out the window then isn't it? Just another reason you continue to be a bad joke. Get some new material, waka waka indeed.
https://i.postimg.cc/5Y8wpLs5/Gray-Exalted-Cod-small-1.gif (https://postimg.cc/5Y8wpLs5)
Not necessarily, but certainly the measure for team ORtg and DRtg is the regular season, for the aforementioned reasons

Btw, it's obvious that MJ's ability to have the #2 all-time offense would give him a better chance against the Warriors goat offense, than lebron's #26-46 offenses did, no? (and we know lebron had more offensive help than MJ, so his weaker offenses prove everything I said about his inferior way of playing and skilkset)
.

[Baby Arm Johnso]

IMHO, Heart was what made MJ so much better that Lebron in Championship games.

Jordan had to work his tail off to get to the top and Lebron was already anointed to be a superstar before his first NBA Game right out of high school.

Didn't Jordan get cut from the HS squad? Jordan had to work to excel at NC

[Prometheus]

MJ's body control and basketball IQ were far superior to those of LeBron. And he was also obviously a much more competitive person.

Bron is larger, just as fast with a head of steam, and stronger. Possibly better passing and vision. Minor advantages compared to MJ's >> arguments, hence MJ > LeBron very comfortably (not close).

[sdot_thadon]

Not necessarily, but certainly the measure for team ORtg and DRtg is the regular season, for the aforementioned reasons
yeah because using regular season stats instead of playoff stats to discuss a finals hypothetical makes the most sense......:rolleyes:


Btw, it's obvious that MJ's ability to have the #2 all-time offense would give him a better chance against the Warriors goat offense, than lebron's #26-46 offenses did, no?
.
The top offensive rating an Mj led team posted in the finals: 115.7

The top offensive rating a Lbj led team posted in the finals: 115.1

Huge chasm right.

and against those 2017 Warriors the Lebron led Cavs posted an ortg of: 114.8, which is basically higher than 5 of the Bull's 6 finals.

Which argument are you trying to make here?

[HylianNightmare]

Not being 3/9

[3ball]

The top offensive rating an Mj led team posted in the finals: 115.7

The top offensive rating a Lbj led team posted in the finals: 115.1

Huge chasm right.

and against those 2017 Warriors the Lebron led Cavs posted an ortg of: 114.8, which is basically higher than 5 of the Bull's 6 finals.


You can't compare individual series - some teams don't mind a high-scoring series and think they can outscore the opponent, while other opponents or matchups result in a defensive contest.

The 18' Cavs achieved a higher ORtg against the Raptors than Durant's Warriors ever achieved against anyone - this kind of discrepancy is the standard for playoff basketball and the wild swings that occur from series to series..

But we all know the Warriors' offense was better than the Cavs and infact #1 all-time - regular season ORtg's against the same comp proved this, while the wild swings that occur from series to series don't.. That's why regular season ORtg's and DRtg's are the standard when people discuss who had a top offense or defense.





Which argument are you trying to make here?


My argument is obvious - MJ's ability to have the #2 all-time offense would give him a better chance against the Warriors' #1 offense, than lebron's #26 and 46 offenses did..

And we know lebron had more offensive help than MJ, so his weaker offenses prove that he played an inferior way.
.

[sdot_thadon]

You can't compare individual series - some teams don't mind a high-scoring series and think they can outscore the opponent, while other opponents or matchups result in a defensive contest.
Exactly but you can compare seasons from entirely different eras? Sounds like you made another argument you diffused with your own words.....I mean you did write this:


That's why regular season ORtg against the same comp and over a large sample size has always been the standard for team ORtg and DRtg
how does this logic work?


My argument is obvious - MJ's ability to have the #2 all-time offense would give him a better chance against the Warriors' #1 offense, than lebron's #26 and 46 offenses did..
but you've already killed this premise yourself by not being able to compare different situations using ortg? And if you did choose to do so anyway, Mj's sqauds only posted an offensive that high 1 time vs lesser teams than that.

[egokiller]

If you've watched MJ play and Lebron play, yet still struggle to discern the vast difference in skill that MJ has over Lebron all while taking into account all the variables such as differences in eras and rules, then that's what this site is here for. To help you find your way. Most on here that fall into this category don't need the help, but it's available for those that do. 3ball and others provide this service for you, free of charge. Embrace it.

If you've only watched Lebron play and are trying to make your assessment based on 20 year old youtube videos to half ass convince yourself that the man of your era is more skilled that he really is by comparison, then that is your own personal choice. It becomes a matter of whatever you need to tell yourself in order to deal with the reality of it all.

You can chose to live in a bubble of confusion, or chose to accept reality for what it is.

[3ball]

Exactly but you can compare seasons from entirely different eras? Sounds like you made another argument you diffused with your own words

how does this logic work?


Yes - comparing how 2 teams performed against the entire NBA (same opponent), is different from comparing how a 2 teams performed in individual playoff series (different opponents)

It doesn't matter though - MJ's Bulls achieved the #2 all-time ORtg, so they ranked better than substantially any team, in any era.





but you've already killed this premise yourself by not being able to compare different situations using ortg?


It isn't a different situation - Lebron's team ORtg is against the entire NBA just like MJ's team ORtg is against the entire NBA

Otoh, you were comparing ORtg against 2 different opponents in 2 playoff series.





And if you did choose to do so anyway, Mj's sqauds only posted an offensive that high 1 time vs lesser teams than that.


MJ's teams had the #2, #6, #12 and #16 all-time ORtg's - that's the most top 10 and top 20 offenses ever.

So not just 1 time.

Otoh, Lebron has zero top 20 offenses.. His teams peaked at #26 and #46, with no other offenses in the top 75

again, MJ's ability to have the #2 all-time offense would give him a better chance against the Warriors' #1 offense, than lebron's #26 and 46 offenses did..

And we know lebron had more offensive help than MJ, so his weaker offenses prove that he played an inferior way

[FKAri]

Marketing, holding liquor, better PR, and better shoes

[BarberSchool]

Many skills mentioned here already, but as much of a gap in their jump shots and reaction time defensively as their was between peak MJ and peak Bran, the biggest difference will always be intelligence, will power, and testicular fortitude. Despite being the greatest physical specimen the game has ever seen, LeBron's brain is that of a broad, a woman ... a ho @ss n!cca.

[egokiller]

Many skills mentioned here already, but as much of a gap in their jump shots and reaction time defensively as their was between peak MJ and peak Bran, the biggest difference will always be intelligence, will power, and testicular fortitude. Despite being the greatest physical specimen the game has ever seen, LeBron's brain is that of a broad, a woman ... a ho @ss n!cca.

Well said. :applause: