19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

[3ball]

Links for jumpshot stats:

Giannis: https://stats.nba.com/player/203507/shooting/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3

Lebron: https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4

[plowking]

Post Jordan's stats in the finals at the same age.

[3ball]

Post Jordan's stats in the finals at the same age.

Stats at 22-24 yrs old against the champs and #1 defense


22 yrs old - Lebron 07' Finals vs. SAS - 22/7/6 on 35.6 fg
23 yrs old - Lebron 08' ECSF vs. BOS - 26/6/8 on 35.5 fg
23 yrs old - Jordan 86' 1st Rd vs. BOS - 44/6/6 on 50.1 fg
24 yrs old - Giannis 19' ECF vs. TOR - 23/14/6 on 44.8 fg


MJ > Giannis > Lebron


:confusedshrug:


Oh, and


20 years old - Magic 80' Finals vs. PHI - 21/11/9 on 57.3%

So no excuses... :no:
.

[SpaceJammeR]

Giannis next king in line. We get it.

[3ball]

Giannis next king in line. We get it.
Maybe

But also that Lebron's performance at 22-24 years old against championship comp pales compared to Giannis, and also MJ, as plowking pointed out in the previous post above... And 20-year old Magic

(btw, i added lebron's 2008 performance against the champs in the 2nd round (BOS) which was almost as bad as 07' vs SAS)
.

[bigkingsfan]

Ordan got swept in the first round, so any of those players are better.

[plowking]

I wanted his stats in the finals for that age.

Waiting.

[zeerghit]

both over Ordan

[CTbasketball92]

3Ball, Giannis will never be as good as LeBron. I know you think LeBron has zero skills (which is wrong) but he's far more skilled than Giannis. He came into the league able to hit fadeaways, make layups with his offhand, pass and handle the ball and cross people.

Giannis didn't even play against a team that was way better than his like LeBron did. He just flatout got outplayed by Kawhi lol. No shaem in that, Kawhi is better. But still.

[Kblaze8855]

3Ball, Giannis will never be as good as LeBron. I know you think LeBron has zero skills (which is wrong) but he's far more skilled than Giannis. He came into the league able to hit fadeaways, make layups with his offhand, pass and handle the ball and cross people.

Giannis didn't even play against a team that was way better than his like LeBron did. He just flatout got outplayed by Kawhi lol. No shaem in that, Kawhi is better. But still.


I dont disagree with your point but id like to enter this into evidence anyway......

These are the first two shots of Giannis career:





https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WelcomeFearfulGypsymoth-size_restricted.gif




He could have gone a different path....and probably been worse for it. Hes trying to get back some of that touch and inbetween game he lost becoming a downhill physical force. He came in shooting a bit though.

[CTbasketball92]

I dont disagree with your point but id like to enter this into evidence anyway......

These are the first two shots of Giannis career:





https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WelcomeFearfulGypsymoth-size_restricted.gif




He could have gone a different path....and probably been worse for it. Hes trying to get back some of that touch and inbetween game he lost becoming a downhill physical force. He came in shooting a bit though.


Yeah I have seen him pull out the fadeaway at times. He should get back to that a bit. Need guys who can score in the halfcourt easily if you want to win a chip.

[3ball]

I wanted his stats in the finals for that age.

Waiting.



How about someone we all agree was worse than Jordan:


20 years old - Magic 80' Finals vs. PHI - 21/11/9 on 57.3%
22 yrs old - Lebron 07' Finals vs. SAS - 22/7/6 on 35.6 fg

23 yrs old - Lebron 08' ECSF vs. BOS - 26/6/8 on 35.5 fg
23 yrs old - Jordan 86' 1st Rd vs. BOS - 44/6/6 on 50.1 fg


MJ > Magic > Lebron

[StrongLurk]

Honestly Lebron was better in 06 than he was in 07...and probably in 08 as well.

Lebron didn't become the best player in the league until he took another leap in 09.

I expect Giannis to take another leap in about 2 years.

[tpols]

I dont disagree with your point but id like to enter this into evidence anyway......

These are the first two shots of Giannis career:





https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WelcomeFearfulGypsymoth-size_restricted.gif




He could have gone a different path....and probably been worse for it. Hes trying to get back some of that touch and inbetween game he lost becoming a downhill physical force. He came in shooting a bit though.


well he's regressed then... one of the ugliest jumpers in the league now. 6'11 rondo.

Lebron actually has good form and technique just seems to be shook sometimes.

[Kblaze8855]

Id say atrophy is more the word. A lot of guys are like that. Lose the skills they came in with because they are asked to play differently. Tyson Chandler played some 3 as a rookie and used to shoot pullup jumpers. Mutombo could score as a rookie. A lot of these spot up shooters had handles in college and high school.

Use it or lose it.

[tpols]

when was giannis asked to not be able to shoot?

obviously he'll play his strengths and go for layups, but he has the ball in his hands all the time wide open.

gotta be able to shoot a little.

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody is asked not to be able to do anything. But offenses are designed to put you in certain places and do specific things. They arent freestyling out there usually. I saw him talking about it a while back. Wanting to shoot but that not being how the offense is designed. Hard to argue when they keep getting better and put up 118ppg so its not just....bad coaching. But hes been asked to do other things. The way he put it was he used to think like a guard now he thinks like a big...and he wants to go back to playing guard ball.

[superduper]

Id say atrophy is more the word. A lot of guys are like that. Lose the skills they came in with because they are asked to play differently. Tyson Chandler played some 3 as a rookie and used to shoot pullup jumpers. Mutombo could score as a rookie. A lot of these spot up shooters had handles in college and high school.

Use it or lose it.

This is exactly what it is.

I used to be a wet shooter, literally felt like i could score on any spot in the half court. Now I lost that and I'm more of a Pippen with the defending/playmaking/rebounding.

I could see it.

Also before, when these players were relatively unknown in terms of strengths and weaknesses at an NBA level, they could do whatever they wanted out there. Now they are gameplanned for so they have to pick the time and the spots correctly.

[3ball]

.
22 yrs old - Lebron 07' Finals vs. SAS - 22/7/6 on 35.6 fg
23 yrs old - Lebron 08' ECSF vs. BOS - 26/6/8 on 35.5 fg
24 yrs old - Giannis 19' ECF vs. TOR - 23/14/6 on 44.8 fg



Honestly Lebron was better in 06 than he was in 07...and probably in 08 as well.

Lebron didn't become the best player in the league until he took another leap in 09.

I expect Giannis to take another leap in about 2 years.
The stats above clearly show that 19' Giannis is ahead of 07' and 08' Lebron..... and either close or equal to 09' Lebron..

09' Lebron didn't know how to win or play great team basketball any better than 19' Giannis - don't bs me - both the 09' Cavs and 19' Bucks were riding a wave of momentum and expected to beat the Magic/Raptors easily - the upset was a shock in both cases..

People only thought the Raptors' roster was better than the bucks AFTER the bucks lost .. before that, the talk was "ooh, Bledsoe, Lopez, Middleton - stacked"... there's plenty of ISH threads saying that ..

And Mo Williams was the only roster change when the Cavs improved from 45 wins in 2008, to 66 in 2009.. So he was killing it all year and people were HIGH on the all-star, who led the NBA in threes made per game... Accordingly, the Cavs were heavily favored against the Magic, who were starting AND1 star Rafer Alston in place of all-star Jameer Nelson..

Lebron's style simply didn't elevate teammates or allow them to thrive - Stan Van Gundy said the Cavs' lack of ball-movement and excessive lebron isolations made it easy on the Magic defense

[Kblaze8855]

High on him? All caps high?


Read this topic on Mo Williams vs Rodney Stuckey from 2009.....



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=139087

[SouBeachTalents]

High on him? All caps high?


Read this topic on Mo Williams vs Rodney Stuckey from 2009.....



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=139087
:roll:

[3ball]

well he's regressed then... one of the ugliest jumpers in the league now. 6'11 rondo.

Lebron actually has good form and technique just seems to be shook sometimes.
Lebron doesn't have good form

- his elbow is out

- his touch is poor (occasionally shoots knuckballs with poor rotation)

- releases the ball off his middle and ring finger too much, instead of index finger

- his follow-throughs are forced and mechanical; it isn't a loose, natural motion for him, like Curry or MJ or other pure shooters.. maybe his arm is too muscular and suited for football more than basketball

- the ball gets in the way of his face, which forces awkward-angled fadeaways that aren't that accurate and have little or no elevation - like an old-school set shot

- his footwork isn't polished, which leads to less fluid jumpshooting and less capacity for attempts overall (less ways to get off a jumper than say, Kobe)


His form simply can't be called "good", unless we're only comparing him to bad shooters . :confusedshrug:

[StrongLurk]

.
22 yrs old - Lebron 07' Finals vs. SAS - 22/7/6 on 35.6 fg
23 yrs old - Lebron 08' ECSF vs. BOS - 26/6/8 on 35.5 fg
24 yrs old - Giannis 19' ECF vs. TOR - 23/14/6 on 44.8 fg



The stats above clearly show that 19' Giannis is ahead of 07' and 08' Lebron..... and either close or equal to 09' Lebron..

09' Lebron didn't know how to win or play great team basketball any better than 19' Giannis - don't bs me - both the 09' Cavs and 19' Bucks were riding a wave of momentum and expected to beat the Magic/Raptors easily - the upset was a shock in both cases..

People only thought the Raptors' roster was better than the bucks AFTER the bucks lost .. before that, the talk was "ooh, Bledsoe, Lopez, Middleton - stacked"... there's plenty of ISH threads saying that ..

And Mo Williams was the only roster change when the Cavs improved from 45 wins in 2008, to 66 in 2009.. So he was killing it all year and people were HIGH on the all-star, who led the NBA in threes made per game... Accordingly, the Cavs were heavily favored against the Magic, who were starting AND1 star Rafer Alston in place of all-star Jameer Nelson..

Lebron's style simply didn't elevate teammates or allow them to thrive - Stan Van Gundy said the Cavs' lack of ball-movement and excessive lebron isolations made it easy on the Magic defense

09 Lebron clearly > 19 Giannis

09 Lebron is better than some versions of Jordan too.

You need more copy/paste.

[SouBeachTalents]

09 Lebron clearly > 19 Giannis

09 Lebron is better than some versions of Jordan too.

You need more copy/paste.
That doofus actually said Giannis' ECF was equal to '09 LeBron's :oldlol:

[3ball]

High on him? All caps high?


Read this topic on Mo Williams vs Rodney Stuckey from 2009.....



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=139087
Stuckey was a bricklayer with a rondo-like jumper and floor-spacing ability, while Mo led the NBA in threes per game...Spacing wasn't understood or valued like it is today, so I have no doubt that clueless ISH posters were hating on Mo.

But Mo's spacing helped the Cavs to 21 more wins - he was the only roster change, and his spacing style was ahead of it's time.. I've joked and called him a mini-curry.. that might sound funny, but Curry/Lebron probably win 70 games easy, since Mo/Lebron won 66..

Mo/Curry's combo style of play is infact optimal and a "70-game" style - Mo's impact would obviously be less today because everyone is playing that way now - there's a million mini-curry's out there... But back in 09', Mo's spacing was unique and therefore added more value (21 more wins and favorite status)... you guys simply aren't giving Mo enough credit, when all the evidence shows that he's responsible for the 21-win improvment

[3ball]

09 Lebron clearly > 19 Giannis

09 Lebron is better than some versions of Jordan too.

You need more copy/paste.
Only Wizards Jordan

No other version of MJ loses to Dwight with a 60-win, 1 seed and Dwight's cast was injured

Like, 98' MJ destroys Dwight .. he knew how to win too much (more than anyone in the modern era/3-pointer basketball) and would have those Cavs playing better than they did in RS

[Kblaze8855]

"Responsible" is a bit much. Go look at what they did when he went down for a month. They won 13 in a row and broke the streak the game he came back.

ISH was laughing about that quite a bit. People doing your usual "But when he played point guard....." Jordan thing talking about lebrons crazy numbers with Mo out. Talking about Lebron being the best point guard in the league and not Chris Paul or Steve Nash.




LeBron James says he doesn't want to have the ball in his hands all the time.

Really.

While detractors claim he sometimes dominates the ball too much as the rest of the Cavaliers stand around and watch, James really would rather not have to handle the ball a lot. But, since Mo Williams and Delonte West are out with injuries and Daniel Gibson missed the first half of Thursday's victory over Miami to attend to his pregnant fiancee, James had no choice but to play the point and run the offense.

"It's not something I always want to do because running the point guard is like playing quarterback," he said after Thursday's win. "I decided not to play quarterback in high school. I'd rather play wide receiver and get out in the open."

Oddly enough, since losing Williams with a sprained left shoulder and West with a fractured left ring finger in back-to-back games against Toronto and the Lakers, respectively, the Cavs are 7-0 and are scoring 102.3 points per game, a tad above their 101.1 season average. James has led the team in assists each of those games and is averaging about 10 a game, more than Williams (5.1) and West (2.9) combined.


"I'm kind of surprised at our scoring with those guys out," James admitted. "I haven't played this much point guard since my first or second year in the league when I had to really dominate the ball for us to be sucessful. So it isn't something I'm used to, but it is something I can do."

Cavaliers vs. New York Knicks

Tipoff: 7:30 p.m. Saturday, The Q.

TV/radio: Fox Sports Ohio; WTAM AM/1100.

Notable: Cavs have won a season-high 10 straight. Not only do they have the best record in the league, but they are also the hottest team. . . . They have won six straight against the Knicks, including a 100-91 victory Nov. 6 in New York. . . . Knicks playing the second game of a back-to-back after playing host to Milwaukee on Friday night. Eddy Curry was listed as out for that game with a sore left knee. . . . Knicks are 7-15 on the road.

-- Mary Schmitt Boyer

No kidding. Cavs coach Mike Brown didn't bat an eye when he learned Gibson would be late to the Miami game after taking his fiancee, R&B star Keyshia Cole, to the hospital with what turned out to be false labor. That left the Cavs without a point guard for the start of Thursday's game. But James filled in admirably, as did Anthony Parker.

"We just kind of take on whatever challenge is in front of us," Brown said. "To miss all three of them, we knew we had a chance to still be OK because those guys are capable ball-handlers. We don't really need a true point guard all the time when we are out on the floor with as good a ball-handler as AP or LeBron and the rest of the guys."

As usual, James will do whatever it takes to help his team win, but even he is a little surprised how well things have gone.

"I make a sacrifice on my shot attempts for us to get easy baskets, for us to push the ball and get into our sets," he said. "I just play the right way. I was always taught to play that way as a kid and I've always been that way. I'm trying to will wins.

"We want just want to hold the fort until our guys get back. We're missing two key guys in Delonte and Mo. It is impressive. You take two point guards off any team in this league and they automatically go down. It just shows the depth and the willpower we have to step up."


For the record: TNT broadcaster Charles Barkley said during Thursday's broadcast that James is the best player in the world.

"Let me reiterate this because there is some discussion in the world," he said. "LeBron James is the best player in whole world to me and anyone who knows anything about basketball. Kobe Bryant has a lot more help. Even without Mo Williams and Delonte West, the Cavaliers keep rolling because of one guy. LeBron James is that good. If you gave him Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom, they'd be 72-10 (tying the all-time best single season record.)"



Lot of those articles from those days.

Mo Williams was getting laughed at by a lot of people and called overrated for just making the all star team.

Right or wrong....people in general were not that high on him. Especially after he got hurt and the Cavs were just fine if not better.

[3ball]

"Responsible" is a bit much. Go look at what they did when he went down for a month. They won 13 in a row and broke the streak the game he came back.

ISH was laughing about that quite a bit. People doing your usual "But when he played point guard....." Jordan thing talking about lebrons crazy numbers with Mo out. Talking about Lebron being the best point guard in the league and not Chris Paul or Steve Nash.







Lot of those articles from those days.

Mo Williams was getting laughed at by a lot of people and called overrated for just making the all star team.

Right or wrong....people in general were not that high on him. Especially after he got hurt and the Cavs were just fine if not better.
A lot of 1st time all-stars are ridiculed by local fans of the team or haters nationwide, but that's the minority - the majority opinion is that they're playing on a star level, so they're all-stars, which is better than not being one

Mo Williams was no different than fellow sniper Chris Middleton this year, except Mo's stats were better - both were first-time all-stars and the 2nd-biggest contributors on a 60-win team (except Mo's contribution was bigger)

And thats great that Lebron had a good stretch of games - a lot of guys do (he also played teams that averaged 34 wins during that stretch, so lottery teams)...

Furthermore, Lebron improved more from 04' to 05' than he did from 08' to 09', and the 05' improvement resulted in 7 more wins - so how many more wins for his lesser 09' improvement? 4 wins? 5?.. :confusedshrug:

The reality is that Mo's "mini Curry" style fit well with Bron and the extra spacing was ahead of it's time, which accounted for most of the win increase.. Mo wouldn't add this value to any team today, because everyone has their "Curry" game on and adds the same value

Btw, adding Ray Allen in 13' also resulted in 66 wins, and that's actually an indication how much lebron-ball limits a team's ceiling (mo = 66 wins... wade/bosh/ray = 66 wins.. lol)..

And it's always been a weakness imo that Mo Williams adds more value to a lebron team than Antawn Jamison or Bosh or Love.. it's a big weakness in his game and explains why he won less than other guys, despite all the help anyone could ask for
.

[Kblaze8855]

Mo Williams was more....Jameer Nelson. One of those guys who gets "Pretty good" status but doesnt justify talking about 10 years later.

I might actually take Jameer Nelson but a lot of that was his unusual connection with Dwight probably making me feel he was a better playmaker than he was.

[3ball]

Mo Williams was more....Jameer Nelson. One of those guys who gets "Pretty good" status but doesnt justify talking about 10 years later.

I might actually take Jameer Nelson but a lot of that was his unusual connection with Dwight probably making me feel he was a better playmaker than he was.
Jameer Nelson didn't play in the 09' ECF

The talent levels were close in that series but Lebron simply pulled the classic case of getting stats without good team basketball where the ball moves instead of sticks

The ball stuck for the Cavs, so they underperformed and lost a series that they were supposed to win..

Since neither guy knew how to win, 09' Lebron is equal to 19' Giannis, not better ... Giannis struggled vs the Raps but an older lebron struggled against the 11' Mavs...

[Kblaze8855]

The way you evaluate players is so funny at times.

If youre a scout for a team and youre sent to watch a couple guys they have to choose between....you come back and tell them "Neither guy knows how to win" and think thats an evaluation? Maybe if your point is....take neither. But if youre asked to recommend one...you do a bit better than that right?

[3ball]

No high school or college kid "knows how to win" in the NBA anyway, because it's a different game - history shows that it takes most players 2-5 years to "learn how to win" in the NBA

Lebron, Durant, Giannis, Curry, etc missed the playoffs their first few years, while MJ wasn't competitive in the 1st Round at that career stage.

But great players learn

In MJ and Lebron's case - by each guy's 3rd healthy season (88' and 06'), they could carry weak casts to good records and high seeds.. Or deep runs with underdogs by their 4th healthy season (89' and 07')...

But it still took several more seasons after that before they win rings (91' Jordan, 12' Lebron), with MJ developing his champion, and Lebron's skillset needing to form a ready-made one..

But regardless, Lebron clearly didn't know how to play championship basketball in 09' and hadn't won yet, so there isn't a non-subjective argument for 09' lebron over 19' Giannis.. the stats are about the same
.

[tpols]

Lebron doesn't have good form

- his elbow is out

- his touch is poor (occasionally shoots knuckballs with poor rotation)

- releases the ball off his middle and ring finger too much, instead of index finger

- his follow-throughs are forced and mechanical; it isn't a loose, natural motion for him, like Curry or MJ or other pure shooters.. maybe his arm is too muscular and suited for football more than basketball

- the ball gets in the way of his face, which forces awkward-angled fadeaways that aren't that accurate and have little or no elevation - like an old-school set shot

- his footwork isn't polished, which leads to less fluid jumpshooting and less capacity for attempts overall (less ways to get off a jumper than say, Kobe)


His form simply can't be called "good", unless we're only comparing him to bad shooters . :confusedshrug:



His form is nice for his size...

He does have a fluid full body release.. the form was never the problem.

Lebron shoots it better than karl malone did.. he just get shook from time to time.

Then again, so did Karl.

:oldlol:

[Turbo Slayer]

U smoking weed? Lebron ecf vs giannis ecf. Lebron more clutch. Sigh. People forget greatness and they need to be reminded over and over. :facepalm

[Turbo Slayer]

The way you evaluate players is so funny at times.

If youre a scout for a team and youre sent to watch a couple guys they have to choose between....you come back and tell them "Neither guy knows how to win" and think thats an evaluation? Maybe if your point is....take neither. But if youre asked to recommend one...you do a bit better than that right? :lol

[3ball]

His form is nice for his size...

He does have a fluid full body release.. the form was never the problem.

Lebron shoots it better than karl malone did.. he just get shook from time to time.

Then again, so did Karl.

:oldlol:
Karl shoots better from mid-range

In 1998, he was 383/797 on 48.1% (https://stats.nba.com/player/252/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) from mid-range - the best lebron ever shot from mid-range was 44.6% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13638032&postcount=34) (218/487)

Karl was also 45.9% efg on all his jumpers that year, which would rank 3rd in Lebron's career

Again, for lebron's position (great perimeter scorer/ball-handler), his form isn't "good"

[AussieSteve]

At the same age Giannis was in 2019, lebron averaged 35/9/7 on 55% for his entire playoff run. Just saying.

[3ball]

U smoking weed? Lebron ecf vs giannis ecf. Lebron more clutch. Sigh. People forget greatness and they need to be reminded over and over. :facepalm
Lebron's 07' ECF wasn't against the champs, while Giannis' 19' ECF was against the champs

Why take credit for facing a weaker opponent??? That's why we've only compared performances against champions itt, so we can compare the stats directly

And it's clear that 19' Giannis played better against the champs than 07' or 08' Lebron'

On a sidenote, look at the closeout game of the 07' ECF - the score was tied heading into the 4th, but then Boobie Gibson scored 19 pts to Lebron's 8 and saved the Cavs.. MJ never had a teammate dominate the 4th while he lays an egg in any playoff game

[3ball]

At the same age Giannis was in 2019, lebron averaged 35/9/7 on 55% for his entire playoff run. Just saying.
Giannis was doing that until the Raps shut him down - no different from an older lebron getting shut down by the Mavs in 11', or infact numerous of series until he finally started winning in 2012 (08' ECSF, 10' ECF).

So the stats are the same and since neither guy knew how to win, 09' Lebron is equal to 19' Giannis, not better...

Remember, the talent levels were close in the 09' ECF and the Cavs were heavy favorites - but Lebron simply pulled a classic case of getting stats without good team basketball where the ball moves instead of sticks

The ball stuck for the Cavs, so they underperformed and lost a series that they were supposed to win..

[bigkingsfan]

On a sidenote, look at the closeout game of the 07' ECF - the score was tied heading into the 4th, but then Boobie Gibson scored 19 pts to Lebron's 8 and saved the Cavs.. MJ never had a teammate dominate the 4th while he lays an egg in any playoff game

Cavs had the lead.
They won by 16.

Saved lol.

[SouBeachTalents]

Giannis was doing that until the Raps shut him down - no different from an older lebron getting shut down by the Mavs in 11', or infact numerous of series until he finally started winning in 2012 (08' ECSF, 10' ECF).

So the stats are the same and since neither guy knew how to win, 09' Lebron is equal to 19' Giannis, not better...

Remember, the talent levels were close in the 09' ECF and the Cavs were heavy favorites - but Lebron simply pulled a classic case of getting stats without good team basketball where the ball moves instead of sticks

The ball stuck for the Cavs, so they underperformed and lost a series that they were supposed to win..
Sounds like Jordan pre '91

And btw, Giannis averaged 27/11/4 in the first two rounds, not even CLOSE to '09 LeBron :oldlol:

[3ball]

Cavs had the lead.
They won by 16.

Saved lol.
Cavs were leading by 1 point heading into the 4th

Then Boobie scores 19, and lebron scores 8 on 2-6.

Boobie clearly saved the Cavs by dominating the 4th... No teammate ever did that for Jordan, let alone the 64th best teammate he ever played with .. :rolleyes:

[bigkingsfan]

Self ownage

Cavs were leading by 1 point heading into the 4th


the score was tied heading into the 4th

Sounds like Legoat making his teammates better instead of ball hogging like Ordan.

[StrongLurk]

OP can't resist having his troll meltdowns even when he makes a decent initial post every once in a while.

Would like to see a clinical/psyche evaluation done on him, would be hilarious to see his brain not being able to resist his 42 year old adult love for MJ.

[3ball]

Sounds like Jordan pre '91


No, Jordan had underdogs pre-91, not big favorites with equal or better talent like 09' lebron

And heading into the 1991 season, the Bulls were still underdogs, while the Pistons remained much more talented - the Bulls had to overcome a much more talented team to make the Finals.. The Pistons had 3x all-stars at 5 spots versus the Bulls 2 all-stars... And the HOF count was 3 to 2 in the Pistons favor..

It's like a bottom-dweller like the Phoenix Suns developing and beating the much more talented Warriors dynasty.. Similarly, for the Bulls to make the 91' Finals, they had to beat a dynasty that was much more talented and infact favored to 3-peat.





And btw, Giannis averaged 27/11/4 in the first two rounds, not even CLOSE to '09 LeBron :oldlol:



Sure but Giannis' stats are better than what lebron did other years, and Giannis uses his teammates better:



Time of Possession

Giannis 19' Playoffs - 4.4 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes
Lebron 18' Playoffs - 9.6 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes


(Time of possession stats don't exist for 09')

[bigkingsfan]

Similarly, for the Bulls to make the 91' Finals, they had to beat a dynasty that was much more talented and infact favored to 3-peat.
LOL

"The Bulls have little excuse not to beat the Pistons this year. Unlike in their previous three encounters, Chicago has many factors in its favor, like these:

*Home-court advantage. In Jordan's career, the Bulls are 4-0 in series in which they have had the home-court edge. The Pistons have lost five consecutive games in Chicago, including three during last year's playoffs. And the Bulls are undefeated (5-0) at home during the playoffs this year.

*Health. Chicago has not played since last Tuesday; the Pistons just finished off the Celtics on Friday night in Game 6, in overtime by 117-113. Except for the normal bumps and bruises of May, the Bulls are healthy. Jordan is nursing tendinitis in his left knee, but that didn't stop him from averaging 33.4 points in Chicago's second-round playoff series against the 76ers. Bulls forward Horace Grant is bothered by an eye irritation, but he also played well against Philadelphia.

(Meanwhile, the Pistons' training room should have a "no vacancy" sign on it. Although he played brilliantly Friday, All-Star point guard Isiah Thomas is hobbled by a sprained foot, a pulled hamstring and a surgically repaired left wrist that has not fully healed. Thomas did not start the last three games of the Celtics series, and he may not start Sunday. Both Joe Dumars, tendinitis in both knees, and Vinnie Johnson, bruised right shin are playing with nagging injuries.)"

[3ball]

LOL

"The Bulls have little excuse not to beat the Pistons this year. Unlike in their previous three encounters, Chicago has many factors in its favor, like these:

*Home-court advantage. In Jordan's career, the Bulls are 4-0 in series in which they have had the home-court edge. The Pistons have lost five consecutive games in Chicago, including three during last year's playoffs. And the Bulls are undefeated (5-0) at home during the playoffs this year.

*Health. Chicago has not played since last Tuesday; the Pistons just finished off the Celtics on Friday night in Game 6, in overtime by 117-113. Except for the normal bumps and bruises of May, the Bulls are healthy. Jordan is nursing tendinitis in his left knee, but that didn't stop him from averaging 33.4 points in Chicago's second-round playoff series against the 76ers. Bulls forward Horace Grant is bothered by an eye irritation, but he also played well against Philadelphia.

(Meanwhile, the Pistons' training room should have a "no vacancy" sign on it. Although he played brilliantly Friday, All-Star point guard Isiah Thomas is hobbled by a sprained foot, a pulled hamstring and a surgically repaired left wrist that has not fully healed. Thomas did not start the last three games of the Celtics series, and he may not start Sunday. Both Joe Dumars, tendinitis in both knees, and Vinnie Johnson, bruised right shin are playing with nagging injuries.)"

^^^ that's after the season was over and right before playoffs

Im talking heading into the season, the Pistons were favored to 3-peat



Pistons stand pay in pursuit of their 3rd title, Associated Press

"Meanwhile, the Pistons’ second straight dominating season has the rest of the East’s coaches scratching their heads over what to do about it. But everyone concedes Detroit is the favorite to become the first team since the 1959-66 Celtics to win as many as three consecutive championships."

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-10-28-sp-4734-story.html

[bigkingsfan]

[QUOTE=3ball]^^^ that's after the season was over and right before playoffs

Im talking heading into the season, the Pistons were favored to 3-peat


[I]Pistons stand pay in pursuit of their 3rd title, Associated Press

"Meanwhile, the Pistons

[stalkerforlife]

[QUOTE=3ball]^^^ that's after the season was over and right before playoffs

Im talking heading into the season, the Pistons were favored to 3-peat


[I]Pistons stand pay in pursuit of their 3rd title, Associated Press

"Meanwhile, the Pistons

[3ball]

No, it was right before their series.

No one cares about preseason favorites.
The Bulls were favored heading into the 91' ECF, but it took literally 3 years to develop to that point, because they were overcoming an inherent talent deficit - even in 91', the Bulls were the less talented team... The Pistons had 3x all-stars at 5 spots versus the Bulls 2 all-stars... And the HOF count was 3 to 2 in the Pistons favor..

It's no different than a bottom-dweller like the Phoenix Suns developing and overcoming the much more talented Warriors dynasty.. Similarly, for the Bulls to make the 91' Finals, they had to overcome a dynasty that was much more talented and infact favored to 3-peat.

And notice the terminology - the bulls had to "overcome" the dynasty, so it was FINAL, sustainable.. the Pistons weren't coming back.. the bulls had developed a better way to play
.

[bigkingsfan]

The Bulls were favored heading into the 91' ECF, but it took literally 3 years to develop to that point, because they were overcoming an inherent talent deficit - even in 91', the Bulls were the less talented team... The Pistons had 3x all-stars at 5 spots versus the Bulls 2 all-stars... And the HOF count was 3 to 2 in the Pistons favor..

It's no different than a bottom-dweller like the Phoenix Suns developing and overcoming the much more talented Warriors dynasty.. Similarly, for the Bulls to make the 91' Finals, they had to overcome a dynasty that was much more talented and infact favored to 3-peat.

And notice the terminology - the bulls had to "overcome" the dynasty, so it was FINAL, sustainable.. the Pistons weren't coming back.. the bulls had developed a better way to play
.

:durantunimpressed:

[3ball]

:durantunimpressed:
You don't get it

The 88' Pistons beat Bird's Celtics and basically beat Magic's peak Lakers if not for a bad call against Laimbeer.. Then they swept Magic's Lakers in 89'.

In other words, the Pistons were a dynasty and juggernaut that was competing on the same level as Bird and Magic's teams, and beating them.. The Bulls had to overcome this perennial favorite starting with a team of rookies in 1988.. So it doesn't matter whether they overcame them mid-series as an upset or mid-season by playing great - the bottom line is that MJ overcame this more-talented juggernaut and did.

Obviously, MJ has plenty of actual upsets (see 89' playoffs), and almost had one against the peak bad boys in the 90' ECF.. But again, regardless of when the overtaking occurred (mid-season or mid-series), the bulls still had to overcome a more talented juggernaut to win

let's put that into today's terms - imagine that bottom-dweller Phoenix was led by MJ for example - they pick up rookie Ayton in 2015 (88' pip), and are beating the Warriors in three years by 2018 (91')... With just Ayton, and like Tristan Thompson... but killer teamwork and MJ's 34/7/7 (his averages in 91-93 PO)

[SouBeachTalents]

You don't get it

The 88' Pistons beat Bird's Celtics and basically beat Magic's peak Lakers if not for a bad call against Laimbeer.. Then they swept Magic's Lakers in 89'.

In other words, the Pistons were a dynasty and juggernaut that was competing on the same level as Bird and Magic's teams, and beating them.. The Bulls had to overcome this perennial favorite starting with a team of rookies in 1988.. So it doesn't matter whether they overcame them mid-series as an upset or mid-season by playing great - the bottom line is that MJ overcame this more-talented juggernaut and did.

Obviously, MJ has plenty of actual upsets (see 89' playoffs), and almost had one against the peak bad boys in the 90' ECF.. But again, regardless of when the overtaking occurred (mid-season or mid-series), the bulls still had to overcome a more talented juggernaut to win

let's put that into today's terms - imagine that bottom-dweller Phoenix was led by MJ for example - they pick up rookie Ayton in 2015 (88' pip), and are beating the Warriors in three years by 2018 (91')... With just Ayton, and like Tristan Thompson... but killer teamwork and MJ's 34/7/7 (his averages in 91-93 PO)
Magic missed like half the Finals

[bigkingsfan]

You don't get it

You don't, what the Pistons did prior had nothing to do with 1991.

[SouBeachTalents]

You don't, what the Pistons did prior had nothing to do with 1991.
Him trying to play off the Pistons were better when the Bulls had by far the two best players in the series AND home court is hilarious

[sdot_thadon]

Nah preseason odds just happen to fit this particular agenda better. He'll abandon it once he needs to prove the bulls were underdogs somewhere in their runs. Note: It's the only year the bulls preseason odds said they weren't the favorites of the 6 runs.

[3ball]

The original point was that lebron lost in 09' because he had a classic case of getting stats without good team basketball, where the ball stuck and didn't move

The ball stuck for the Cavs, so they underperformed and lost a series that they were supposed to win..

^^^ Southbeach said this was like pre-91' MJ, so i pointed out that MJ was always an underdog pre-91', not a favorite and 1 seed like lebron in 09'..

MJ also never lost as a favorite or with an equal cast like lebron had in 2009.. Nor did he play like lebron as a ball-dominant player and reducer of ball movement

Lebron's back-to-back losses as favored, 60-win 1 seeds are a record and unique to him - consistent losses as the favorite like 2009-2011 demonstrate an inherent flaw in lebron's game.

MJ only lost as the underdog and without strong casts, so none of his losses are "black marks" or demonstrate flaws in his game

[3ball]

Sounds like Jordan pre '91


No, Jordan had underdogs pre-91, not big favorites with equal or better talent like 09' lebron





And btw, Giannis averaged 27/11/4 in the first two rounds, not even CLOSE to '09 LeBron :oldlol:



Sure but Giannis' stats are better than what lebron did other years, and Giannis uses his teammates better:



Time of Possession per game

Giannis 19' Playoffs - 4.4 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes
Lebron. 18' Playoffs - 9.6 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes


(Time of possession stats don't exist for 09')

[3ball]

You don't, what the Pistons did prior had nothing to do with 1991.
We aren't talking about 91' anyway - Southbeach asked about pre-91'.... And I said that MJ was always an underdog pre-91', so those struggles don't compare to.lebron losing as a favored 1 seed in 09' - MJ never lost as the favorite, 91" or otherwise

[bigkingsfan]

We aren't talking about 91' anyway


The Bulls were favored heading into the 91' ECF

:durantunimpressed:

[Gougou]

To be honest both of them faced great defensive teams. 19 Raptors and that Spurs was amazing defensively.


Giannis performed worse because it was against Raptors that had only Kawhi and bunch of role players while he is the league MVP, meanwhile James with a bunch of random players on his team facing the Spurs dynasty team.

[3ball]

To be honest both of them faced great defensive teams. 19 Raptors and that Spurs was amazing defensively.


Giannis performed worse because it was against Raptors that had only Kawhi and bunch of role players while he is the league MVP, meanwhile James with a bunch of random players on his team[/B] facing the Spurs dynasty team.



Lebron's 2nd option contributed more than Giannis' 2nd option:


MO.... WILLIAMS.... 09':. 17.8.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
CHRIS MIDDLETON 19':. 18.1.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws/48.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp


Giannis and Lebron had comparable, 1-star casts

[superduper]

Lebron's 2nd option contributed more than Giannis' 2nd option:


MO.... WILLIAMS.... 09':. 17.8.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
CHRIS MIDDLETON 19':. 18.1.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws/48.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp


Giannis and Lebron had comparable, 1-star casts

LOL Boom!! :eek:

[3ball]

LOL Boom!! :eek:


Mo Will > Middleton confirmed

But we already knew that because Mo was the only roster change in 09' and therefore responsible for the 21-win increase..

We already saw that Lebron's big improvement from 04' to 05' resulted in only 7 more wins, so we know that most of the 21-win increase in 09' was due to Mo