How the hell did LeBron win 66 games with TRASH in 2009?

[RRR3]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009.html



:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[SpaceJam]

Ridiculous that MoWill was an all-star, purely because they were 40-11 at the break. How does Bron do it :bowdown:

[Young X]

Lebron was playing at a GOAT level.

[SouBeachTalents]

Mo Williams was the only roster change when the Cavs improved from 45 wins in 2008, to 66 in 2009.. So he was killing it all year and people were HIGH on the all-star, who led the NBA in threes made per game

Mo's spacing helped the Cavs to 21 more wins - he was the only roster change, and his spacing style was ahead of it's time.. I've joked and called him a mini-curry.. that might sound funny, but Curry/Lebron probably win 70 games easy, since Mo/Lebron won 66..

Mo/Curry's combo style of play is infact optimal and a "70-game" style - Mo's impact would obviously be less today because everyone is playing that way now - there's a million mini-curry's out there... But back in 09', Mo's spacing was unique and therefore added more value (21 more wins and favorite status)... you guys simply aren't giving Mo enough credit, when all the evidence shows that he's responsible for the 21-win improvment

We already knew that because Mo was the only roster change in 09' and therefore responsible for the 21-win increase. We already saw that Lebron's big improvement from 04' to 05' resulted in only 7 more wins, so we know that most of the 21-win increase in 09' was due to Mo

[sdot_thadon]

Ridiculous that MoWill was an all-star, purely because they were 40-11 at the break. How does Bron do it :bowdown:
Mo only made it as an injury replacement for Bosh.....

[RRR3]

Mo Williams was the only roster change when the Cavs improved from 45 wins in 2008, to 66 in 2009.. So he was killing it all year and people were HIGH on the all-star, who led the NBA in threes made per game

Mo's spacing helped the Cavs to 21 more wins - he was the only roster change, and his spacing style was ahead of it's time.. I've joked and called him a mini-curry.. that might sound funny, but Curry/Lebron probably win 70 games easy, since Mo/Lebron won 66..

Mo/Curry's combo style of play is infact optimal and a "70-game" style - Mo's impact would obviously be less today because everyone is playing that way now - there's a million mini-curry's out there... But back in 09', Mo's spacing was unique and therefore added more value (21 more wins and favorite status)... you guys simply aren't giving Mo enough credit, when all the evidence shows that he's responsible for the 21-win improvment

We already knew that because Mo was the only roster change in 09' and therefore responsible for the 21-win increase. We already saw that Lebron's big improvement from 04' to 05' resulted in only 7 more wins, so we know that most of the 21-win increase in 09' was due to Mo
LMAO link to where that idiot said that please. WOAT post.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The 2009 Cavs are like 1 of 4 teams in history who won 66+ games...and didn't ring.

Shame too.

Kobe was waiting for LeBron in 2009 and 2010. GOAT puppet commercials.

[warriorfan]

For one that line up wasn

[stalkerforlife]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]For one that line up wasn

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]For one that line up wasn

[SpaceJam]

Pretty sure the East beat the West head to head that year. And the Cavs went 26-4 against the West.

Yep! East had a winning record over the West that season, that's why Kobe's 09 ring gets an asterisk. Weak conference

[LAmbruh]

The 2009 Cavs are like 1 of 4 teams in history who won 66+ games...and didn't ring.

Shame too.

Kobe was waiting for LeBron in 2009 and 2010. GOAT puppet commercials.
Only 2 years of the 14 total? Yikes


Lebron was waiting for him for 7 :oldlol:

[LAmbruh]

Pretty sure the East beat the West head to head that year. And the Cavs went 26-4 against the West.
Ouch

[warriorfan]

Pretty sure the East beat the West head to head that year. And the Cavs went 26-4 against the West.

Pretty sure you didn’t watch basketball in 2009 and should be perma banned for low iq Dray n Klay level posting. Stick to your over the top LGBT promotion because you don’t know shit about basketball

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Only 2 years of the 14 total? Yikes


Lebron was waiting for him for 7 :oldlol:

Exactly.

2 years both their teams were expected to make the finals.

When Lebron formed a superteam, Kobe was out of his prime. A damn shame indeed.

[LAmbruh]

Exactly.

2 years both their teams were expected to make the finals.

When Lebron formed a superteam, Kobe was out of his prime. A damn shame indeed.
Damn, Kobe unable to start his first two years in the league, and apparently now not expected to win his last 6 years from the age of 31 to 37

Big yikes

No wonder he's ranked outside top 10 with that lack of durability

[NBAGOAT]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]For one that line up wasn

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Damn, Kobe unable to start his first two years in the league, and apparently now not expected to win his last 6 years from the age of 31 to 37

Big yikes

No wonder he's ranked outside top 10 with that lack of durability

Imagine expecting Kobe to win more than 5...when Lebron is stuck @ 3

:yaohappy:

[LAmbruh]

Imagine expecting Kobe to win more than 5...when Lebron is stuck @ 3

:yaohappy:
Only expecting Kobe to win only 2 his last 14 years, ouch


good call :yaohappy:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Only expecting Kobe to win only 2 his last 14 years, ouch


good call :yaohappy:

"only"

"expecting Kobe to win more"

Meanwhile dude's favorite player has less titles :oldlol:

[LAmbruh]

Benched first 2 seasons
Robin next 5 seasons
Outplayed first 5 finals
Not expected to win last 11/13 final seasons



Damn, what a legacy. 12th it is :oldlol:

[Doranku]

LeBron was crazy good in 4th quarters that year. Felt like every other night, the Cavs would have a come-from-behind win in the 4th.

[305Baller]

Damn Lebron Wtf Happened


Hahahahhhhhahaaaaaaa

[Bawkish]

lost against Dwight despite HCA

it's just another L to Lebron's career which is full of it

[iamgine]

That was Ilgauskas' last good year. I'd equate him to Millsap last season.

Mo Will was also really good. I'd equate him to pre-playoff Jamal Murray last season.

All in all, '09 Cavs supporting casts looked a lot like like '19 Nuggets. Not the best supporting casts, but enough to win a lot of games with an all time great player like Lebron.

[SpaceJam2]

Greatest playoff run of ALL TIME

Young King

[ImKobe]

Greatest playoff run of ALL TIME

Young King

Greatest Playoff run of all time ends with your King getting his shit pushed in by Dwight Howard :roll: :roll:

[StrongLurk]

Lebron's 09/10 teams were NOT trash like the Cavs 04-08.'

Those 09/10 Cavs teams weren't elite or anything talent-wise, but they were a well-rounded team. Yeah, Lebron clearly was a major port in that, but those Cavs rosters outside of Lebron at least could defend and rebound.

[superduper]

Wait... isn't that the year Kobe absolutely shit on the guy that eviscerated Bran and won the chip + FMVP? :oldlol:

[superduper]

Greatest Playoff run of all time ends with your King getting his shit pushed in by Dwight Howard :roll: :roll:

:roll: :roll:

Bran stans are so fkin cringe

[Manny98]

Mo Williams :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Manny98]

Greatest Playoff run of all time ends with your King getting his shit pushed in by Dwight Howard :roll: :roll:
Check LeBrons stats in 09 and you'll realize why it's GOAT

[StrongLurk]

For Lebron personally, you know you are on a GOAT-level when the only thing people criticize him about is losing.

There are only a handful of players in history who have that kind of expectation.

[superduper]

Check LeBrons stats in 09 and you'll realize why it's GOAT


1. MJ
2.Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Russell
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Magic
9. Bird
10. Kobe
11. Lebron

He's not top 10 but definitely top 20

Le11th :(

[superduper]

For Lebron personally, you know you are on a GOAT-level when the only thing people criticize him about is losing.

There are only a handful of players in history who have that kind of expectation.

Colluding
Stiff-Arming
Travelling
Crab dribbling
Diluting weakest conference in history
Playoff virgin in real conference
Throwing teammates under bus every single year
Annual visible on court meltdowns and tantrums
Getting coaches fired
Literally irrelevant before colluding with multiple superstars/allstars/HOFs
Statpadding individual stats in a 5v5 team game to the detriment of his team

[RRR3]

Le11th :(
Nope, you yourself disagree

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13791815&postcount=44

[StrongLurk]

Colluding
Stiff-Arming
Travelling
Crab dribbling
Diluting weakest conference in history
Playoff virgin in real conference
Throwing teammates under bus every single year
Annual visible on court meltdowns and tantrums
Getting coaches fired
Literally irrelevant before colluding with multiple superstars/allstars/HOFs
Statpadding individual stats in a 5v5 team game to the detriment of his team

None of that is real criticism.

[Manny98]

Nope, you yourself disagree

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13791815&postcount=44
Busted :roll: :roll: :roll:

[superduper]

None of that is real criticism.

Define real

[superduper]

Busted :roll: :roll: :roll:

i WaS jUsT bEiNg SaRcAsTiC :rockon:

And at least I made that post on my account you pu$$y ass lying ass back tracking ass bitch :roll:

Lost any level of credibility you had left.

[RRR3]

Good grief what a meltdown by superduperdumb :biggums:
Dude is in tears rn :oldlol:

Mad I exposed his ass

[Manny98]

^ seething :roll:

[RRR3]

^ seething :roll:

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/096/564/2f7.jpg
:lol

[superduper]

Good grief what a meltdown by superduperdumb :biggums:
Dude is in tears rn :oldlol:

Mad I exposed his ass

You call that a meltdown wtf? :oldlol:

Just trying to say shit now to get me to stop shitting on your fellow Brantard.

Maybe you shouldn't have exposed him then eh RRR3tard?

Look at this dumbass Manny sucking the d1ck of the niqqa that exposed him :roll:

Fking pathetic.

[Manny98]

:lol
:roll: :roll:

[RRR3]

You call that a meltdown wtf? :oldlol:

Just trying to say shit now to get me to stop shitting on your fellow Brantard.

Maybe you shouldn't have exposed him then eh RRR3tard?

Look at this dumbass Manny sucking the d1ck of the niqqa that exposed him :roll:

Fking pathetic.
I disagree with manny plenty. I literally made him wear an avatar making fun of his dumbass prediction that the Nets would have beat the Sixers with a healthy Ed Davis. I’m just laughing at your dumb ass rn for admitting you really think LeBron is arguably top 3 and then still trying to spam LeBron hate.

[superduper]

[QUOTE=RRR3]I disagree with manny plenty. I literally made him wear an avatar making fun of his dumbass prediction that the Nets would have beat the Sixers with a healthy Ed Davis. I

[Manny98]

"Top 3-5 though"
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13791815&postcount=44

Dude just got exposed as a closet LeBron fan :roll: :roll:

[RRR3]

Legit if it weren't for Bran stans being as delusional as they are and the fact that they straight up constantly diss the sport of basketball and it's players/history I would have no problem admitting Bran is top 3-5.

Unfortunately for Bran his stans only hurt his legacy.
I don

[tpols]

No better than dwights cast of no names.

How did Dwight beat bran?

[PickernRoller]

The real question is.... how did Dwight own Bran in 2009?

[RRR3]

No better than dwights cast of no names.

How did Dwight beat bran?
Dwight had two all-stars and Turkoglu. Literally 3 players better than anyone LeBron had :biggums:

[Mr Feeny]

"Top 3-5 though"
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13791815&postcount=44

Dude just got exposed as a closet LeBron fan :roll: :roll:



1. MJ
2.Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem*
5. Russell*
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Magic*
9. Bird*
10. Kobe**
11.*Lebron*

He's not top 10 but definitely top 20



Sorry mate.

[RRR3]

Sorry mate.
I think manny has a LeBron hater alt he meant to post it on.

[Mr Feeny]

I think manny has a LeBron hater alt he meant to post it on.

He is a Lebron hater. The whole shtick is to get people to trash Lebron. That's why every post of his is plain dumb and over the top.

[SouBeachTalents]

He is a Lebron hater. The whole shtick is to get people to trash Lebron. That's why every post of his is plain dumb and over the top.
Makes you wonder if 3ball is the same way

[Mr Feeny]

Makes you wonder if 3ball is the same way

I think he is. If he isn't (I.e. if he's actually a legit Jordan fan) then he's insane. He's one of the most obsessive fans on any sports forum. There is no way that's real.

[RRR3]

He is a Lebron hater. The whole shtick is to get people to trash Lebron. That's why every post of his is plain dumb and over the top.
I think that may well be the case for Dray n Klay/Gus Hemingway/etc.

I don’t think it is for manny. I think he does like LeBron and he just has an alt to make LeBron haters look dumb. Or he was just trolling. Who knows.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Manny is that crazy fukk in Split.

"Hi. I'm Patricia!" :roll:

So which alt does this clown become The Beast?

[Mr Feeny]

[QUOTE=RRR3]I think that may well be the case for Dray n Klay/Gus Hemingway/etc.

I don

[RRR3]

I think he is. If he isn't (I.e. if he's actually a legit Jordan fan) then he's insane. He's one of the most obsessive fans on any sports forum. There is no way that's real.
3ball exposed himself as a kobetard but I can’t find the post. He said something like “Kobe would drop 60 on MJ”

[RRR3]

I have new for you:lol Gus is "simon" aka manny. It's the same kid. If you'd like to poll the forum, the entire forum will tell you the same thing.
Nah he’s not. Different posting style. Those alts always give themselves away.

[Mr Feeny]

[QUOTE=RRR3]3ball exposed himself as a kobetard but I can

[Mr Feeny]

[QUOTE=RRR3]Nah he

[StrongLurk]

All the Kobe stans should be careful with the "Dwight owned Lebron" trolling.

If you are just going by who won, then Lebron "owned" Kobe to the tune of 16-6 for Kobe's whole career.

[Mr Feeny]

All the Kobe stans should be careful with the "Dwight owned Lebron" trolling.

If you are just going by who won, then Lebron "owned" Kobe to the tune of 16-6 for Kobe's whole career.

Did anyone say that?

[RRR3]

There we go. That's what I'm saying. He and "Simon" aren't actual fans. Their posts are delusional. They're way over the top. They're designed to get people to hate the player that they purportedly stan.
Yeah but at the same time I kinda feel 3ball meant to post that on one of his alts and messed up. I find it hard to believe he’d spend THAT much effort if he WASN’T obsessed with Jordan.

[RRR3]

Wana make a poll?
No, because this board is full of paranoid idiots. No poll on this board is close to reliable.

[Mr Feeny]

No, because this board is full of paranoid idiots. No poll on this board is close to reliable.

So in other words "I'm just gonna stick my finger in my ear and pretend something is true. And anyone who tells me otherwise is paranoid". Got ya.

[Manny98]

There we go. That's what I'm saying. He and "Simon" aren't actual fans. Their posts are delusional. They're way over the top. They're designed to get people to hate the player that they purportedly stan.
What would i accomplish by trying to get people to hate LeBron?

LeBron is still going to get hated on by a lot of people whether i post or not

I got you completely mindf*cked it's hilarious :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball definitely isn't a Lebron fan.

He's probably a Kobe fanboy though.

KBlaze and I were in a thread where he talked about a playoff series in the 90s. Forgot which one. Anyway...3ball was so off-base there was ZERO doubt he never watched any of those games. Or the 90s period. Maybe some games on Youtube, but for the most part, he's a perpetual liar.

By now, he probably is a Jordan fan. But the main reason he became one was to denigrate Lebron.

[Mr Feeny]

What would i accomplish by trying to get people to hate LeBron?

LeBron is still going to get hated on by a lot of people whether i post or not

I got you completely mindf*cked it's hilarious :oldlol:

Oh its manny again:lol:

You posted that. Not me:lol

[RRR3]

3ball definitely isn't a Lebron fan.

He's probably a Kobe fanboy though.

KBlaze and I were in a thread where he talked about a playoff series in the 90s. Forgot which one. Anyway...3ball was so off-base there was ZERO doubt he never watched any of those games. Or the 90s period. Maybe some games on Youtube, but for the most part, he's a perpetual liar.

By now, he probably is a Jordan fan. But the main reason he became one was to denigrate Lebron.
I thought I’d heard you say 3ball is some Jordan and alt and you knew who (swoosh/coach perhaps?)

[SouBeachTalents]

3ball definitely isn't a Lebron fan.

He's probably a Kobe fanboy though.

KBlaze and I were in a thread where he talked about a playoff series in the 90s. Forgot which one. Anyway...3ball was so off-base there was little doubt dude never watched any of those games. Or the 90s. Period. Maybe some games on Youtube, but for the most part, he's a perpetual liar.

By now, he probably is a Jordan fan. But the main reason he became one was to denigrate Lebron.
I've never seen someone that obsessed in my entire life. He makes multiple threads literally EVERY day about some topic related to Jordan and/or LeBron

Dude makes Ray Finkle seem like a casual fan :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

[QUOTE=RRR3]I thought I

[Mr Feeny]

I've never seen someone that obsessed in my entire life. He makes multiple threads literally EVERY day about some topic related to Jordan and/or LeBron

Dude makes Ray Finkle seem like a casual fan :lol

:lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What would i accomplish by trying to get people to hate LeBron?

LeBron is still going to get hated on by a lot of people whether i post or not

I got you completely mindf*cked it's hilarious :oldlol:

:crazysam:

"That wasn't me. That was Patricia."

[RRR3]

I didn't say who it was, but yeah. I'm pretty sure its the same guy.

Who also happened to like Kobe. And had other accounts where he praised Kobe. A lot.
So....SamuraiSwish? :lol

[sdot_thadon]

So....SamuraiSwish? :lol
Wouldn't put it past a guy who defended Mj's *****, but I've been on more than one forum 3ball was quarantined from in the past.

[StrongLurk]

It's a clear statistical fact that Lebron's 2nd option in 09' contributed more than Giannis' 2nd option in 19':


MO.... WILLIAMS.... 09':. 18/3/5.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
KHRIS MIDDLETON 19':.'' 18/6/4.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws/48.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp


Giannis and Lebron had comparable, 1-star casts, and 60-win favorites - but both failed to make the Finals despite being overwhelmingly expected to

This is a failure especially for Lebron, who was in his prime already and in a conference where weak casts routinely made the Finals from 01-09' (5 times - 09' Dwight.. 07' Lebron.. 02/03 Kidd.. 01' AI)
.

Using this logic, then Lebron is an undeniable top 3-5 player of all time. Lebron and MJ are often in the top 3 for all those stats you listed.

Edit: 3Ball's autistic self is constantly posting and then deleting posts.

[3ball]

LMAO link to where that idiot said that please. WOAT post.



It's a clear statistical fact that Lebron's 2nd option in 09' contributed more than Giannis' 2nd option in 19':


MO.... WILLIAMS.... 09':. 18/3/5.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
KHRIS MIDDLETON 19':.'' 18/6/4.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws/48.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp


Giannis and Lebron had comparable, 1-star casts, and 60-win favorites - but both failed to make the Finals despite being overwhelmingly expected to

This is a failure especially for Lebron, who was in his prime already and in a conference where weak casts routinely made the Finals from 01-09' (5 times - 09' Dwight.. 07' Lebron.. 02/03 Kidd.. 01' AI)

[Bigsmoke]

Defensive hussle guys and lebron.

That shit didnt work against a good team tho

[3ball]

Using this logic, then Lebron is an undeniable top 3-5 player of all time. Lebron and MJ are often in the top 3 for all those stats you listed.
2nd options don't dictate team style of play like 1st options

The coach builds an offense around what he thinks the 1st option can handle - i.e. Phil knew MJ's game could handle the triangle, whereas coaches know Lebron's game can't handle a system or a ball movement focus

So stats can be deceiving when comparing #1 options because teamwork, style of play and "optimal-ness" of brand are big factors

But 2nd options follow the leader, so they play their best given the format they have to work with, which was dictated by the #1 option's game (the coach selects the format based on what they know the #1 option can handle)

And sorry for the repost above

[SouBeachTalents]

It's a clear statistical fact that Lebron's 2nd option in 09' contributed more than Giannis' 2nd option in 19':


MO.... WILLIAMS.... 09':. 18/3/5.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
KHRIS MIDDLETON 19':.'' 18/6/4.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws/48.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp


Giannis and Lebron had comparable, 1-star casts, and 60-win favorites - but both failed to make the Finals despite being overwhelmingly expected to

This is a failure especially for Lebron, who was in his prime already and in a conference where weak casts routinely made the Finals from 01-09' (5 times - 09' Dwight.. 07' Lebron.. 02/03 Kidd.. 01' AI)
But what else did you want LeBron to do? He played about as well individually as he could've for 5 straight games, was dropping 40 multiple times, scoring in the 4th, hitting game winning shots. And it's not like his teammates weren't getting involved. I don't dispute LeBron's time of possession increased, but his teammates were getting a similar number of touches/shot attempts per game.

I want you to point to specific things LeBron could've done to change the outcome of that series. The only legit criticism is he didn't continue his epic level of play into Game 6, and finally had a mortal performance

[RRR3]

But what else did you want LeBron to do? He played about as well individually as he could've for 5 straight games, was dropping 40 multiple times, scoring in the 4th, hitting game winning shots. And it's not like his teammates weren't getting involved. I don't dispute LeBron's time of possession increased, but his teammates were getting a similar number of touches/shot attempts per game.

I want you to point to specific things LeBron could've done to change the outcome of that series. The only legit criticism is he didn't continue his epic level of play into Game 6, and finally had a mortal performance
LeBron isn’t allowed to be mortal or he’s the worst player ever.

[305Baller]

too much bran-ball. doesnt allow a team to flourish. see early jordan.



heeehheee

[The Iron Fist]

Trash conference. 3 eastern playoff teams had less than 42 wins. Now figure out how bad the rest of the east was. Should have won 76 games that year.

[superduper]

Trash conference. 3 eastern playoff teams had less than 42 wins. Now figure out how bad the rest of the east was. Should have won 76 games that year.

There's a reason 75% of the playoffs were harder for Jordan (3 rounds) and only 25% of the playoffs was harder for Bran (1 round).

Bran faced absolute joke competition for 75% of his playoff career. This is just a fact that is making Bran stans insecure at embarassingly record high levels.

[sdot_thadon]

Trash conference. 3 eastern playoff teams had less than 42 wins. Now figure out how bad the rest of the east was. Should have won 76 games that year.
Sounds pretty familiar almost exactly like the western conference of:
1980
1981
1984
1985
1986

with 1987 only being 1 win away from being the same.

And with both Kareem and Magic should the Lakers have been expected to do more?

[NBAGOAT]

again dont why people bring up 09 as a weak east year, 3 teams with 59+ wins while the west had one. Harder sos than the west. Most importantly, only one team with sub 30 wins while the west had 5 with sub 25. almost every other year from 99-19 is worse lol.

Lebron wasnt perfect vs the magic but it is pure revisionist history to act like dwight wasnt a top 5 player and dpoy back then just because he's a cancer now and had a fantastic team around him even with jameer injured. espn was overreacting but they were acting like the magic had 4/5 best players on the court

[NBAGOAT]

But what else did you want LeBron to do? He played about as well individually as he could've for 5 straight games, was dropping 40 multiple times, scoring in the 4th, hitting game winning shots. And it's not like his teammates weren't getting involved. I don't dispute LeBron's time of possession increased, but his teammates were getting a similar number of touches/shot attempts per game.

I want you to point to specific things LeBron could've done to change the outcome of that series. The only legit criticism is he didn't continue his epic level of play into Game 6, and finally had a mortal performance

this is so damn stupid. Middleton for a lot of bucks fans isnt even their 2nd best player. Even if he is you have a starting lineup with all excellent starters like the 90s sonics. The Bucks arent your normal great team with an elite duo, it's a star surrounded by 4 good starters who range from super role player to just below all star level.

Lopez was maybe their 5th best player in all likelihood. and a lot of playoff teams would gladly have him as their 2nd best player. Brogdon who was their 4th imo was a 16/5/3 50/40/90 guy who the pacers just gave 20+mil a yr to likely be their 2nd option and the pacers are a potential 3 seed 50 win team.

[3ball]

But what else did you want LeBron to do? He played about as well individually as he could've for 5 straight games, was dropping 40 multiple times, scoring in the 4th, hitting game winning shots. And it's not like his teammates weren't getting involved. I don't dispute LeBron's time of possession increased, but his teammates were getting a similar number of touches/shot attempts per game.

I want you to point to specific things LeBron could've done to change the outcome of that series. The only legit criticism is he didn't continue his epic level of play into Game 6, and finally had a mortal performance
Lebron's 2nd option (Mo) averaged 18 on 38.7%.. But this can't be an excuse because MJ won many series with Pippen averaging literally 15 ppg on 33-39%..

Heck, Pippen averaged 17.6 on 40.8% for the entire 96-98 playoffs... He also averaged 15 on 39.7% in the 1989, when MJ led a 6-seed over the #1 SRS team in the league (who had 3 all-stars that year, plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper)

So quit ur bitching about Lebron's cast.. How come MJ can win with shit help, while Lebron uses it as an excuse for losses???.. And your typical "it was the defense" cover for bron-ball doesn't work here because the 00's Cavs had great defenses - that was Mike Brown's calling card and that's how they stayed in many series, especially when lebron was struggling (I e. 08' ECSF).

Ultimately, Lebron won 66 regular season games by controlling most of the action, but that doesn't work in the playoffs and never has... The playoffs requires a more diverse team approach, which is why Dwight's 58-win team without their all-star PG proved easily better than Lebron's 66-win, regular season juggernaut..

For Lebron to beat the Magic, he needed to achieve the same 28/8/7 stats, PER, etc, with less ball-time and be doing this ALL YEAR - essentially developing a more diverse brand of team ball that is better suited for the adjustments needed in the exploitative playoff environment..

Ultimately, if Lebron got his stats with less ball-time, that would allow some coach to say "wow, I think lebron's game could actually handle the triangle (or another system), which would keep the ball moving and everyone else involved"... But again, lebron's skillset is restricted to ball-dominance, so no coach thinks this or installs a system, and lebron's teams remain with lower ceilings than other greats.. That's the main reason he has half the rings of MJ and is 3/9.... In addition to the mental side, clutch, competitiveness, intangibles, etc

Don't act like role players can't get their 9 ppg without Lebron spoon-feeding them.. role players have always gotten better looks via ball movement than 1 player dribbling in the half-court.
.

[RRR3]

Lebron's 2nd option (Mo) averaged 18 on 38.7%.. But this can't be an excuse because MJ won many series with Pippen averaging literally 15 ppg on 33-39%..

Heck, Pippen averaged 17.6 on 40.8% for the entire 96-98 playoffs... He also averaged 15 on 39.7% in the 1989, when MJ led a 6-seed over the #1 SRS team in the league (who had 3 all-stars that year, plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper)

So quit ur bitching about Lebron's cast.. How come MJ can win with shit help, while Lebron uses it as an excuse for losses???.. And your typical "it was the defense" cover for bron-ball doesn't work here because the 00's Cavs had great defenses - that was Mike Brown's calling card and that's how they stayed in many series, especially when lebron was struggling (I e. 08' ECSF).

Ultimately, Lebron won 66 regular season games by controlling most of the action, but that doesn't work in the playoffs and never has... The playoffs requires a more diverse team approach, which is why Dwight's 58-win team without their all-star PG proved easily better than Lebron's 66-win, regular season juggernaut..

For Lebron to beat the Magic, he needed to achieve the same 28/8/7 stats, PER, etc, with less ball-time and be doing this ALL YEAR - essentially developing a more diverse brand of team ball that is better suited for the adjustments needed in the exploitative playoff environment..

Ultimately, if Lebron got his stats with less ball-time, that would allow some coach to say "wow, I think lebron's game could actually handle the triangle (or another system), which would keep the ball moving and everyone else involved"... But again, lebron's skillset is restricted to ball-dominance, so no coach thinks this or installs a system, and lebron's teams remain with lower ceilings than other greats.. That's the main reason he has half the rings of MJ and is 3/9.... In addition to the mental side, clutch, competitiveness, intangibles, etc

Don't act like role players can't get their 9 ppg without Lebron spoon-feeding them.. role players have always gotten better looks via ball movement than 1 player dribbling in the half-court.
.
Hi Samuraiswish

[superduper]

Lebron's 2nd option (Mo) averaged 18 on 38.7%.. But this can't be an excuse because MJ won many series with Pippen averaging literally 15 ppg on 33-39%..

Heck, Pippen averaged 17.6 on 40.8% for the entire 96-98 playoffs... He also averaged 15 on 39.7% in the 1989, when MJ led a 6-seed over the #1 SRS team in the league (who had 3 all-stars that year, plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper)

So quit ur bitching about Lebron's cast.. How come MJ can win with shit help, while Lebron uses it as an excuse for losses???.. And your typical "it was the defense" cover for bron-ball doesn't work here because the 00's Cavs had great defenses - that was Mike Brown's calling card and that's how they stayed in many series, especially when lebron was struggling (I e. 08' ECSF).

Ultimately, Lebron won 66 regular season games by controlling most of the action, but that doesn't work in the playoffs and never has... The playoffs requires a more diverse team approach, which is why Dwight's 58-win team without their all-star PG proved easily better than Lebron's 66-win, regular season juggernaut..

For Lebron to beat the Magic, he needed to achieve the same 28/8/7 stats, PER, etc, with less ball-time and be doing this ALL YEAR - essentially developing a more diverse brand of team ball that is better suited for the adjustments needed in the exploitative playoff environment..

Ultimately, if Lebron got his stats with less ball-time, that would allow some coach to say "wow, I think lebron's game could actually handle the triangle (or another system), which would keep the ball moving and everyone else involved"... But again, lebron's skillset is restricted to ball-dominance, so no coach thinks this or installs a system, and lebron's teams remain with lower ceilings than other greats.. That's the main reason he has half the rings of MJ and is 3/9.... In addition to the mental side, clutch, competitiveness, intangibles, etc

Don't act like role players can't get their 9 ppg without Lebron spoon-feeding them.. role players have always gotten better looks via ball movement than 1 player dribbling in the half-court.
.

Absolutely great points that not a single person will be able to refute.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron's 2nd option (Mo) averaged 18 on 38.7%.. But this can't be an excuse because MJ won many series with Pippen averaging literally 15 ppg on 33-39%..

Heck, Pippen averaged 17.6 on 40.8% for the entire 96-98 playoffs... He also averaged 15 on 39.7% in the 1989, when MJ led a 6-seed over the #1 SRS team in the league (who had 3 all-stars that year, plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper)

So quit ur bitching about Lebron's cast.. How come MJ can win with shit help, while Lebron uses it as an excuse for losses???.. And your typical "it was the defense" cover for bron-ball doesn't work here because the 00's Cavs had great defenses - that was Mike Brown's calling card and that's how they stayed in many series, especially when lebron was struggling (I e. 08' ECSF).

Ultimately, Lebron won 66 regular season games by controlling most of the action, but that doesn't work in the playoffs and never has... The playoffs requires a more diverse team approach, which is why Dwight's 58-win team without their all-star PG proved easily better than Lebron's 66-win, regular season juggernaut..

For Lebron to beat the Magic, he needed to achieve the same 28/8/7 stats, PER, etc, with less ball-time and be doing this ALL YEAR - essentially developing a more diverse brand of team ball that is better suited for the adjustments needed in the exploitative playoff environment..

Ultimately, if Lebron got his stats with less ball-time, that would allow some coach to say "wow, I think lebron's game could actually handle the triangle (or another system), which would keep the ball moving and everyone else involved"... But again, lebron's skillset is restricted to ball-dominance, so no coach thinks this or installs a system, and lebron's teams remain with lower ceilings than other greats.. That's the main reason he has half the rings of MJ and is 3/9.... In addition to the mental side, clutch, competitiveness, intangibles, etc

Don't act like role players can't get their 9 ppg without Lebron spoon-feeding them.. role players have always gotten better looks via ball movement than 1 player dribbling in the half-court.
.

Too much trolling to even respond to :facepalm

SamuraiSwish is comparing Mo Williams to Scottie Pippen. If that is the case then the SamuraiSwish must really think the 90's were a weak era.

[NBAGOAT]

Lebron's 2nd option (Mo) averaged 18 on 38.7%.. But this can't be an excuse because MJ won many series with Pippen averaging literally 15 ppg on 33-39%..

Heck, Pippen averaged 17.6 on 40.8% for the entire 96-98 playoffs... He also averaged 15 on 39.7% in the 1989, when MJ led a 6-seed over the #1 SRS team in the league (who had 3 all-stars that year, plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper)

So quit ur bitching about Lebron's cast.. How come MJ can win with shit help, while Lebron uses it as an excuse for losses???.. And your typical "it was the defense" cover for bron-ball doesn't work here because the 00's Cavs had great defenses - that was Mike Brown's calling card and that's how they stayed in many series, especially when lebron was struggling (I e. 08' ECSF).

Ultimately, Lebron won 66 regular season games by controlling most of the action, but that doesn't work in the playoffs and never has... The playoffs requires a more diverse team approach, which is why Dwight's 58-win team without their all-star PG proved easily better than Lebron's 66-win, regular season juggernaut..

For Lebron to beat the Magic, he needed to achieve the same 28/8/7 stats, PER, etc, with less ball-time and be doing this ALL YEAR - essentially developing a more diverse brand of team ball that is better suited for the adjustments needed in the exploitative playoff environment..

Ultimately, if Lebron got his stats with less ball-time, that would allow some coach to say "wow, I think lebron's game could actually handle the triangle (or another system), which would keep the ball moving and everyone else involved"... But again, lebron's skillset is restricted to ball-dominance, so no coach thinks this or installs a system, and lebron's teams remain with lower ceilings than other greats.

Don't act like role players can't get their 9 ppg without Lebron spoon-feeding them.. role players have always gotten better looks via ball movement than 1 player dribbling in the half-court.

Unfortunately, Lebron's skillset is limited to ball-dominance, so his teams can't play a different way and have lower ceilings.. Thats the main reason he has half the rings of MJ and is 3/9.... In addition to the mental side, clutch, competitiveness, intangibles, etc

he can absolutely point to defense. The magic put up a 113 ortg. This was significantly above ever their rs number. Along with the fact that the cavs were good on defense during the rs as you said, that means the magic put up a 10+rortg that series, historically great playoff offense. It was an absolute mismatch in the frontcourt along with some really great shooting which you cant do much about.

And no you're wrong. the most popular offensive role player is a shooter. They get the best looks off doubles and dribble penetration. Coming off screens or clever pin downs etc only works for the top shooters. especially someone like pj tucker wouldnt work in a heavy ball movement system because he cant dribble or pass well.

[The Iron Fist]

Sounds pretty familiar almost exactly like the western conference of:
1980
1981
1984
1985
1986

with 1987 only being 1 win away from being the same.

And with both Kareem and Magic should the Lakers have been expected to do more?Difference is..........
They won five times. They won more than they lost. So your point is what?

Winning record in 9 finals>>>>>>>>losing record in 9 finals.

[3ball]

he can absolutely point to defense. The magic put up a 113 ortg. This was significantly above ever their rs number. Along with the fact that the cavs were good on defense during the rs as you said, that means the magic put up a 10+rortg that series, historically great playoff offense. It was an absolute mismatch in the frontcourt along with some really great shooting which you cant do much about.

And no you're wrong. the most popular offensive role player is a shooter. They get the best looks off doubles and dribble penetration. Coming off screens or clever pin downs etc only works for the top shooters. especially someone like pj tucker wouldnt work in a heavy ball movement system because he cant dribble or pass well.
The Cavs were 2 points below their RS ortg, and the magic 3 points above theirs

So the cavs underachieved offensively..

But they were playing a losing way to begin with

One-dimensional offenses allow a defense to get real comfortable.. A comfortable defense thst isn't worn down can result in a hot offense... otoh, confusion, disarray and a worn down defense prevents a team from getting hot offensively.. Lebron-ball is simply easy for the best teams to defend - 17 years of 3/9 and losses like 09' tell us this pretty clearly

[sdot_thadon]

Difference is..........
They won five times. They won more than they lost. So your point is what?

Winning record in 9 finals>>>>>>>>losing record in 9 finals.
The difference is they were 2 top 10 all time guys that didn't win 76 as you said and didn't even win each of those years their conference was that terrible. And that's not even mentioning their 3rd guy a top 50 type guy. I specifically mention them because your criticism doesn't match your avatar.

[NBAGOAT]

The Cavs were 2 points below their RS ortg, and the magic 3 points above theirs

So the cavs underachieved offensively..

But they were playing a losing way to begin with

One-dimensional offenses allow a defense to get real comfortable.. A comfortable defense thst isn't worn down can result in a hot offense... otoh, confusion, disarray and a worn down defense prevents a team from getting hot offensively.. Lebron-ball is simply easy for the best teams to defend - 17 years of 3/9 and losses like 09' tell us this pretty clearly

the magic were the best defense in the league. They overachieved being only 2pts below their average. You play worse than normal vs above average defenses, a very simply concept

[The Iron Fist]

The difference is they were 2 top 10 all time guys that didn't win 76 as you said and didn't even win each of those years their conference was that terrible. And that's not even mentioning their 3rd guy a top 50 type guy. I specifically mention them because your criticism doesn't match your avatar.
:roll: So is it really about regular season wins now?

Nobody cares about the regular season, especially Laker fans. We are about titles. Thats what the avatar is about. But great job pointing out they won in the tougher years.:cheers: Just goes to show that the easy peezy conference doesnt prepare you for the battle of the post season, which is one of the reasons lebron is a six times finals loser who didnt even make the playoffs in the west.:applause:

[StrongLurk]

the magic were the best defense in the league. They overachieved being only 2pts below their average. You play worse than normal vs above average defenses, a very simply concept

Lebron put up 38/8/8 on great efficiency on the best D in the league?

GOAT stuff.

[NBAGOAT]

:roll: So is it really about regular season wins now?

Nobody cares about the regular season, especially Laker fans. We are about titles. Thats what the avatar is about. But great job pointing out they won in the tougher years.:cheers: Just goes to show that the easy peezy conference doesnt prepare you for the battle of the post season, which is one of the reasons lebron is a six times finals loser who didnt even make the playoffs in the west.:applause:

you're the one who started this conversation saying he should've won 76 wins in a weak conference when showtime didnt even do most years that in a weak west and now ofc you want to deflect to titles :lol. Just say he should've won a title and move on from there but you had to exaggerate lol. No team in history should really win 76 games, likely not even one with a mj/shaq/curry big 3.

Seriously, almost everyone should take some type of philosophy/logic/debate class just to know ho to proceed logically in a debate and avoid fallacies

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron's 2nd option (Mo) averaged 18 on 38.7%.. But this can't be an excuse because MJ won many series with Pippen averaging literally 15 ppg on 33-39%..
another classic stat "mistake" Mo averged 18 on 37.1% what does putting the wrong stats even accomplish here?

Main deal was Mo "the shooter" shot almost 10% lower than he did during the season in the playoffs that year. He shot more than 10% lower in the Orlando series. If Pippen didn't shoot well he still brought a ton to the table. When Mo doesn't shoot well, does he bring anything to the table?

[The Iron Fist]

you're the one who started this conversation saying he should've won 76 wins in a weak conference when showtime didnt even do most years that in a weak west and now ofc you want to deflect to titles :lol. Just say he should've won a title and move on from there but you had to exaggerate lol. No team in history should really win 76 games, likely not even one with a mj/shaq/curry big 3.

Seriously, almost everyone should take some type of philosophy/logic/debate class just to know ho to proceed logically in a debate and avoid fallacies
The entire basis of this thread is an exaggeration. Lets not forget the

[Manny98]

Imagine acting like the guy that averaged 38/8/8 off 49% was the reason they lost :facepalm

[tpols]

we still need an answer for how he lost to dwight howard with a 66 win squad.

[Docs Orders]

we still need an answer for how he lost to dwight howard with a 66 win squad.


How did LeBron win 66 with Mo but Kobe only won 45 games with Odom

[3ball]

The magic were the best defense in the league. They overachieved being only 2pts below their average. You play worse than normal vs above average defenses, a very simply concept


But the Cavs had a great defense too and the Magic still played better than their norm

Low diversity offenses like CP3/Lebron-ball, Nash-ball, etc, become easy for the best teams to defend as a series progresses in the adjustment-friendly playoffs.. the best teams aren't made uncomfortable or worn down defensively by Lebron-ball, so they can attack more confidently and energetically themselves (get hot).

In addition to being a 1-dimensional, Lebron-ball underperformed offensively in most losses compared to the regular season - 07' Finals, 08 ECSF, 09' ECF, 10' ECSF, 11' Finals, and 14' Finals.. Again, this put weak pressure on the opponent's defense and didn't wear them down, so the opponent attacked more energetically and exceeded their regular season ORtg in most of those series (09/10/11/14)

The opponent basically figured out Lebron-ball and won the last 3 games in all of Lebron's Finals losses - figured out the basic Lebron/CP3-ball and destroyed it... #notgoatnotclose.

Btw, in the process of winning the attrition battle, controlling the game and establishing the flow they want, the opponent might opt for an easier scoring flow where they think they can just outscore the opponent, thereby allowing a high ortg that they simply supercede - the 17' Finals is a great example, where the Cavs were allowed to score easily and above their RS ortg, while the Warriors simply superceded it with a higher ortg..

[tpols]

3ball never compared mo williams to scottie pippen... he pointed out their offense.

nobody realizes how bad pippen was offensively '96-'98. he was dray in a slump bad.

Yea he was much better defensively, but Lebron's teams were great defensively outside mo williams.

They kept him in tight series in '07 and '08 when he was shooting 35% from the floor. Get real.

[StrongLurk]

we still need an answer for how he lost to dwight howard with a 66 win squad.

Lebron is 16-6 all time against Kobe.

[superduper]

We still need answers for how Manny thinks Jordan's the GOAT.

[tpols]

Lebron is 16-6 all time against Kobe.


playoffs?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wpcFB7gZ6qI/hqdefault.jpg

[Young X]

Him getting that team to 66 wins is more impressive than most player's championships.

[fourkicks44]

Not trying to take away anything from your boys but Kobe Stans and LeBron Stans need to sit down and realize the late 2000's overall was one of the weakest eras of all time.

[NBAGOAT]

Not trying to take away anything from your boys but Kobe Stans and LeBron Stans need to sit down and realize the late 2000's overall was one of the weakest eras of all time.

Great parity but definitely a lack of elite all time teams. I adjust down team accomplishments a little bit. I bet for example if you asked who was better the nuggets in 09 and the Jazz in 2010 or the jazz and nuggets this year, most people take the 2nd even though they’re going have similar seeding and win totals

[StrongLurk]

playoffs?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wpcFB7gZ6qI/hqdefault.jpg

Then why did you mention the Cavaliers winning 66 games in the regular season?

:biggums:

[RRR3]

Him getting that team to 66 wins is more impressive than most player's championships.
:applause:

[tpols]

Then why did you mention the Cavaliers winning 66 games in the regular season?

:biggums:


because that should signify their talent...

right?

[LAmbruh]

playoffs?



Lebron waited in the Finals for 7 years, Kobe never showed


jokes on him again

[3ball]

Lebron waited in the Finals for 7 years, Kobe never showed


jokes on him again
Low diversity offenses like CP3/Lebron-ball, Nash-ball, etc, become easy for the best teams to defend as a series progresses in the adjustment-friendly playoffs.. the best teams aren't made uncomfortable or worn down defensively by Lebron-ball, so they can attack more confidently and energetically themselves (get hot).

That's why it seems like lebron's teams "just need to play defense", when really that's only part of the problem.. an uncomfortable, on-their-heels or worn-out defense can't get hot on offense, but lebron-ball simply can't apply sufficient pressure offensively to put the other team on their heels - instead, lebron's team is the one on their heels, which wears down their defense and takes away juice needed on offense to put pressure on opponent/wear them down

[paksat]

because he league panders to him :roll: