Weaknesses

[3ball]

.
Lebron


- sub-par shooting and FT touch

- doesn't dominate the post

- doesn't have a good mid-range game

- only elite with a live dribble

- turnover-prone; 3+ TO for basically every playoff run

- developed "choker" label from a few key chokes, underperformances, and/or losses as the favorite

- lacks killer instinct, "assassin" mentality

- not a great combo leaper - primarily a 1-foot leaper

- bulky physique not ideal for mitigating high traffic or unspaced areas without bully-ball

- lacks elite footwork/fakes, which limits repertoire and the ways he can get off a jumper compared to say, kobe

- not a pure scorer; naturally a low-volume shooter due to limited repertoire/footwork/fakes and also passive/non-aggressive nature

- shoots poorly when forced to undertake high volume, due to aforementioned limitations on repertoire/footwork/fakes

- turns teammates into spot-up shooters due to his ball-dominant skillset and lack of off-ball game

- can't play off teammates due to ball-dominant skillset

- fields low-assist, low ball-movement teams due to his ball-dominant skillset

- loses in the championship to teams with more team assists and better ball movement - his teams get massively out-assisted in the championship

- lacks off-ball and catch-and-shoot skillset, so he doesn't fit with other ball-handlers, and only shooters excel alongside him

- puts a ceiling on his teams by having a skillset that only shooters can excel alongside

- his rosters have high turnover because his skillset restriction to ball-dominance fits with so few player-types (shooters)

- nobody wants to play with him because they know that only shooters excel with him and he turns everyone into spot-up shooters

- only an elite defender from 09-13'... 1-way player in recent years

- team-hopper for ready-made vets and teams because his ball-dominant skillset (teammates become spot-up shooters) doesn't develop players or teamwork

- no 2 star teammates (late addition courtesy of bigkingsfan)



MJ



.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

[bigkingsfan]

MJ - No Pippen

[3ball]

MJ - No Pippen
I wanted to include that for MJ but I couldn't because one of lebron's weaknesses is "no 2 stars", which is a bigger weakness than "no Pippen"

... and infact means that "no Pippen" isn't a weakness at all ("no 2 stars" is the weakness)

[Wally450]

I didn't have to click on the thread to know this thread is about LeBron.



Let me ask this... OP, do you consider Lebron a threat to Jordan?

[3ball]

I didn't have to click on the thread to know this thread is about LeBron.



Let me ask this... OP, do you consider Lebron a threat to Jordan?
No but he's a perceived threat by some because the media misreports and is lazy

[LAmbruh]

MJ - No Pippen
:yaohappy:

[3ball]

:yaohappy:
"no 2 stars"

[sdot_thadon]

No but he's a perceived threat by some because the media misreports and is lazy
I think he's perceived that way because he's great and he's earned that distinction. And if your entire purpose is supposedly ''righting" the misreporting done by the media.....good luck, who knows in 40k or 50k more posts maybe you'll convince someone of something besides how much of a threat you really see him as.:oldlol:

[KobesFinger]

A whole lot of drivel. MJ's weakness is 3 point shooting. Subtract his seasons playing with the short line and he's a 26% shooter (323/1189 without short line vs 581/1778 with).

Meanwhile, some of LeBron's weaknesses include him having a bulky body and not being a pure scorer?

[RRR3]

A whole lot of drivel. MJ's weakness is 3 point shooting. Subtract his seasons playing with the short line and he's a 26% shooter (323/1189 without short line vs 581/1778 with).

Meanwhile, some of LeBron's weaknesses include him having a bulky body and not being a pure scorer?
Don’t you know? MJ was only bad at 3s because he didn’t try very hard to make them.

[ImKobe]

A whole lot of drivel. MJ's weakness is 3 point shooting. Subtract his seasons playing with the short line and he's a 26% shooter (323/1189 without short line vs 581/1778 with).

Meanwhile, some of LeBron's weaknesses include him having a bulky body and not being a pure scorer?

weakness? you do realize he only had a few seasons shooting more than a couple a game.

1990 - 3.0 3PA 37.6%
1993 - 2.9 3PA 35.2%

Those are the only seasons of him shooting more than 1-1.5 threes a game with the correct 3PT line, he was a good shooter when he shot them, just look at his 3PT shooting in the first 3-peat

1991 - 1.5 3PA 38.5%
1992 - 2.0 3PA 38.6%
1993 - 3.8 3PA 38.9%

He had a bunch of seasons shooting a low-volume of threes but he was actually good when he did shoot them with regularity as the numbers show, you can only reference 1998 as a bad volume year but that's only at 1.5 attempts in the RS and 2 in the Playoffs so probably most of those shots weren't legitimate three-point attempts. He was arguably the GOAT mid-range shooter and very consistent at the FT line so to say that shooting 3s a couple ft out was his weakness when he wasn't looking for those shots is just trolling from your part.

[RRR3]

weakness? you do realize he only had a few seasons shooting more than a couple a game.

1990 - 3.0 3PA 37.6%
1993 - 2.9 3PA 35.2%

Those are the only seasons of him shooting more than 1-1.5 threes a game with the correct 3PT line, he was a good shooter when he shot them, just look at his 3PT shooting in the first 3-peat

1991 - 1.5 3PA 38.5%
1992 - 2.0 3PA 38.6%
1993 - 3.8 3PA 38.9%

He had a bunch of seasons shooting a low-volume of threes but he was actually good when he did shoot them as the numbers show, you can only reference 1998 as a bad volume year but that's only at 1.5 attempts in the RS and 2 in the Playoffs so probably most of those shots weren't legitimate three-point attempts. He was arguably the GOAT mid-range shooter and very consistent at the FT line so to say that shooting 3s a couple ft out was his weakness when he wasn't looking for those shots is just trolling from your part.
You think Kobe would outplay MJ in the finals so who’s the troll again?

[ImKobe]

[QUOTE=RRR3]You think Kobe would outplay MJ in the finals so who

[TheMan]

A whole lot of drivel. MJ's weakness is 3 point shooting. Subtract his seasons playing with the short line and he's a 26% shooter (323/1189 without short line vs 581/1778 with).

Meanwhile, some of LeBron's weaknesses include him having a bulky body and not being a pure scorer?
Ray Allen said that if MJ would've wanted to become an elite 3pt shooter, that he would've been one (worked on his 3pter), fact is that MJ regarded the 3 as a low percentage shot that gave the defense a break and he preferred to keep the pressure on the defense so he didn't make it a big part of his repertoire. He did have huge playoffs games where he hit huge 3pters, he had for a while the record for most 3pters in a half of a Finals game, and if Ray Ray thinks MJ could've been elite in that department, I'll take his word for it.

Other than not working enough on his 3 point shot, he had no weaknesses on the offensive side of the ball :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

Like I said, you give Kobe the better overall roster + HCA and he would beat Jordan in a Finals series.
You said Kobe replacing on the 93 suns would beat MJ.

[3ball]

I think he's perceived that way because he's great and he's earned that distinction. And if your entire purpose is supposedly ''righting" the misreporting done by the media.....good luck, who knows in 40k or 50k more posts maybe you'll convince someone of something besides how much of a threat you really see him as.:oldlol:

He's propped up because his physical stature makes it an easy sell, but


- only 3 rings in 17 years (non-goat winning)

- isn't goat at PER, PPG, or any major per game statistic; he only has cumulative totals that rely on longevity (non-goat stats)

- less MVP's, FMVP's, scoring titles, titles, less 70-win, less dpoy, less 1st team all-D (non-goat accolades)

- failed to have the best teams of his era (2-5 vs spurs/warriors).... performed worse than MJ against like opponents (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Kidd, Garnett)... Never carried a low seed deep in playoffs, never beat b2b champs, never beat nearly as many 50 or 60-win teams in playoffs (non-goat comp)


So how has he earned the right to challenge MJ's throne again?...

His 9 Finals is matched by Magic and possibly others (West, Wilt, Russell), and ultimately exposed his limits - he's 3/9.

[sdot_thadon]

Ray Allen said that if MJ would've wanted to become an elite 3pt shooter, that he would've been one (worked on his 3pter), fact is that MJ regarded the 3 as a low percentage shot that gave the defense a break and he preferred to keep the pressure on the defense so he didn't make it a big part of his repertoire. He did have huge playoffs games where he hit huge 3pters, he had for a while the record for most 3pters in a half of a Finals game, and if Ray Ray thinks MJ could've been elite in that department, I'll take his word for it.

Other than not working enough on his 3 point shot, he had no weaknesses on the offensive side of the ball :confusedshrug:
That's fantasy world. What if, do we do this bs for any other great regarding their weakness(es)? He didn't shoot many of them because he wasn't very good at them, and frankly he didn't need them. He was a terror without them. The facts are:

he played 12 seasons at the normal 3pt distance, he was decent 2/12 years.

he was below league average all but those 2 years at the normal stripe.

He did shoot well those years at a higher volume but it's 2 of 12 years, it's barely above outlier territory statistically. Nothing other than fantasy level thinking suggests he was better than what he was. Any great player can work on a weakness by that thought process.

[ImKobe]

You said Kobe replacing on the 93 suns would beat MJ.

93 Suns had more talent around Barkley than the Bulls did around Jordan and they had HCA so yes.

[KobesFinger]

weakness? you do realize he only had a few seasons shooting more than a couple a game.

1990 - 3.0 3PA 37.6%
1993 - 2.9 3PA 35.2%

Those are the only seasons of him shooting more than 1-1.5 threes a game with the correct 3PT line, he was a good shooter when he shot them, just look at his 3PT shooting in the first 3-peat

1991 - 1.5 3PA 38.5%
1992 - 2.0 3PA 38.6%
1993 - 3.8 3PA 38.9%

He had a bunch of seasons shooting a low-volume of threes but he was actually good when he did shoot them with regularity as the numbers show, you can only reference 1998 as a bad volume year but that's only at 1.5 attempts in the RS and 2 in the Playoffs so probably most of those shots weren't legitimate three-point attempts. He was arguably the GOAT mid-range shooter and very consistent at the FT line so to say that shooting 3s a couple ft out was his weakness when he wasn't looking for those shots is just trolling from your part.

So 2 seasons out of 11 full seasons means he what exactly? Doesn't matter if you take 100 or 1000 threes a season, if you're shooting 26%, you're not good at them.

[3ball]

That's fantasy world. What if, do we do this bs for any other great regarding their weakness(es)? He didn't shoot many of them because he wasn't very good at them, and frankly he didn't need them. He was a terror without them. The facts are:

he played 12 seasons at the normal 3pt distance, he was decent 2/12 years.

he was below league average all but those 2 years at the normal stripe.

He did shoot well those years at a higher volume but it's 2 of 12 years, it's barely above outlier territory statistically. Nothing other than fantasy level thinking suggests he was better than what he was. Any great player can work on a weakness by that thought process.
You're forgetting about the playoffs, where the timing of his increase shows he was a good 3-point shooter:

He numbers were solid for the entire 85-93' playoffs (35.2% on 2.2 attempts), and even better as the series got bigger - 43% on 3.3 attempts in 91-93 Finals; 39% on 3.8 attempts in 91-93' playoffs... Kawhi won various series in his 19' championship run with less than this

So he stepped it up easily when it mattered without practicing it like today's players - that means he was a good 3-point shooter, and great like Ray Allen said in today's era with the practice

[RRR3]

93 Suns had more talent around Barkley than the Bulls did around Jordan and they had HCA so yes.
MJ=GOAT finals performer

Kobe=clank clonk clunk in the finals.






:yaohappy:

[SpaceJam2]

Jordan's:

1-9

No Pip, no Chip

Losing record to Hakeem, Isiah, and Bird

57 wins to 55 wins when he left (NO impact)

Chris Hodges 3-pt shooting contest

Dare me to continue :lol

[Manny98]

MJ - No Pippen
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

Jordan's:

1-9

No Pip, no Chip

Losing record to Hakeem, Isiah, and Bird

57 wins to 55 wins when he left (NO impact)

Chris Hodges 3-pt shooting contest

Dare me to continue :lol
- 1-9 isn't as bad as missing playoffs

- "no pip, no chip" isn't as bad as "no 2-star double-dip, no chip"

- losing record to bird/isiah with no all-stars isn't as bad as a losing record to curry/duncan WITH all-stars (2 all-stars)

- 57 to 55 wins - the Bulls developed such a massive advantage on the league in quality of basketball/brand of ball, that they could still win 55 games and make the 2nd round without the best player - the advantage in brand of ball/teamwork allowed this, not a loaded roster.. 2nd round without MJ, goat team of modern era with him.

- The 3-point contest should be viewed as a fluke, since MJ's career 3-point percentage is a lot higher than 20%.
.

[sdot_thadon]

You're forgetting about the playoffs, where the timing of his increase shows he was a good 3-point shooter:

He numbers were solid for the entire 85-93' playoffs (35.2% on 2.2 attempts), and even better as the series got bigger - 43% on 3.3 attempts in 91-93 Finals; 39% on 3.8 attempts in 91-93' playoffs... Kawhi won various series in his 19' championship run with less than this

So he stepped it up easily when it mattered without practicing it like today's players - that means he was a good 3-point shooter, and great like Ray Allen said in today's era with the practice
He also had a playoff run shooting around 19% from 3......with the short line.

So either way the playoffs are a smaller sample size, or they indicate he was capable of shooting 19% on the same volume you claim made him a ray allen level shooter, with the wnba line.:facepalm

His greatest moment as a 3 point shooter should be burned into the minds of any long term fan. The 6 3's vs Portland......and then realize they were basically almost all uncontested. Wonder why.:hammerhead:

[FKAri]

Ray Allen said that if MJ would've wanted to become an elite 3pt shooter, that he would've been one (worked on his 3pter), fact is that MJ regarded the 3 as a low percentage shot that gave the defense a break and he preferred to keep the pressure on the defense so he didn't make it a big part of his repertoire. He did have huge playoffs games where he hit huge 3pters, he had for a while the record for most 3pters in a half of a Finals game, and if Ray Ray thinks MJ could've been elite in that department, I'll take his word for it.

Other than not working enough on his 3 point shot, he had no weaknesses on the offensive side of the ball :confusedshrug:
Ray Allen said that because he doesn't believe in talent. Literally. He's on record as saying that. He believes his shooting is strictly because he worked on it more than anyone else.

[Vino24]

Gambling and not being big enough to satisfy

[Smoke117]

I think he's perceived that way because he's great and he's earned that distinction. And if your entire purpose is supposedly ''righting" the misreporting done by the media.....good luck, who knows in 40k or 50k more posts maybe you'll convince someone of something besides how much of a threat you really see him as.:oldlol:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[superduper]

Ray Allen said that because he doesn't believe in talent. Literally. He's on record as saying that. He believes his shooting is strictly because he worked on it more than anyone else.

What he probably meant by that was that he doesn't believe someone is "born" a shooter. He worked very hard to develop that skill.

[3ball]

He also had a playoff run shooting around 19% from 3......with the short line.

So either way the playoffs are a smaller sample size, or they indicate he was capable of shooting 19% on the same volume you claim made him a ray allen level shooter, with the wnba line.:facepalm

His greatest moment as a 3 point shooter should be burned into the minds of any long term fan. The 6 3's vs Portland......and then realize they were basically almost all uncontested. Wonder why.:hammerhead:
He won the 92' and 93' championships shooting every bit as good as today's standard.. He shot 39% on 3.8 attempts in the 93' playoffs, and 42% on 4.3 attempts in the 92' and 93' Finals.. thats better than say, Kawhi's ECF against Giannis, or his epic series vs Philly..

So to answer the question "could MJ make enough threes in today's game to win championship??"... The answer is "yes, he already won 2 championships shooting as well or better than today's standard"

And you pointed out 1 year that he had a down year - that's an exception to his career 33% rate, including the aforementioned prime stats from 91-93' (at his most dominant state, he was naturally a 40% playoff shooter with no practice)

Btw, MJ's threes in 92' were less open then today's threes, where 89% of threes are taken with 4+ feet from the closest defender (described as "open" or "wide open"), according to NBA.com's tracking stats (https://stats.nba.com/teams/shots-closest-defender/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open).. Even Curry shoots 80% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201939/shots-dash/) of his threes with 4+ feet of room.. So MJ would get better looks from three today because offensive strategy is designed to drive and move the ball to get open threes..

[Turbo Slayer]

No weaknesses

[Overdrive]

Ray Allen said that because he doesn't believe in talent. Literally. He's on record as saying that. He believes his shooting is strictly because he worked on it more than anyone else.

Ray Allen is right in a way. I think there's "talent" in people, but it's more how they are brought up and how their body develops.

Some aren't build to be good shooters. Their proportions are off and no matter how much they practice they won't be Ray, Curry or Reggie, some aren't just mentally wired to repetively practice a skill everyday.

Jordan obviously had great shooting mechanics and was driven to become better, but he was too stupid to realize that the 3 is a weapon. He thought it's a stupid shot.

In a way it is if you use it like the '17 Rockets in G7. If you don't hit and keep on shooting cold it's dumb, but hitting some here and there when there's no pressure to? It's an absolute nail in the coffin.

If Jordan had a 3 on Ray's level he might've won in '89 already.

[sdot_thadon]

He won the 92' and 93' championships shooting every bit as good as today's standard.. He shot 39% on 3.8 attempts in the 93' playoffs, and 42% on 4.3 attempts in the 92' and 93' Finals.. thats better than say, Kawhi's ECF against Giannis, or his epic series vs Philly..

So to answer the question "could MJ make enough threes in today's game to win championship??"... The answer is "yes, he already won 2 championships shooting as well or better than today's standard"

And you pointed out 1 year that he had a down year - that's an exception to his career 33% rate, including the aforementioned prime stats from 91-93' (at his most dominant state, he was naturally a 40% playoff shooter with no practice)

Btw, MJ's threes in 92' were less open then today's threes, where 89% of threes are taken with 4+ feet from the closest defender (described as "open" or "wide open"), according to NBA.com's tracking stats (https://stats.nba.com/teams/shots-closest-defender/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open).. Even Curry shoots 80% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201939/shots-dash/) of his threes with 4+ feet of room.. So MJ would get better looks from three today because offensive strategy is designed to drive and move the ball to get open threes..
nah buddy he had more than one "down year" :oldlol:

I believe the thing you're overlooking is in the postseason the better teams would all rather him shoot a 3 than anything else, so that's money they are giving away to him for the most part. Hence his 3 point percentage rising in the postseason. Makes perfect sense. Daring him to beat them from outside because they can't stop him inside.....sounds a lot like our current goat candidate.

[ImKobe]

So 2 seasons out of 11 full seasons means he what exactly? Doesn't matter if you take 100 or 1000 threes a season, if you're shooting 26%, you're not good at them.

Except stats show that MJ was a decent 3-point shooter in most seasons when he shot them with volume. All his bad 3-point shooting seasons were when he took 1.5 or less per game, he's a 36.8% 3PT shooter in the Finals as well with all his best series coming before the shortened line.


He simply didn't take the three as much because it wasn't really a shot most players took in the 80s/90s and he didn't need it for his team to win. Different era, different rules. His overall percentage is skewed because his 3-point attempts were mostly buzzer-beaters and half-court heaves.