Here's audio of SVG saying the plan was to let Lebron score in 09' ECF

[3ball]

45:00 minute mark:

http://pc-cdn.espnradio.com/audio/303/2889/25370/3635686/lowepost_2019-05-01-154626-6427-0-2533-0.128.mp3?cdn_id=33&uuid=bfc06ae304b823d8e9970d0eadc419dc&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.espn.com%2Fgeneral%2Fplay%3 Fid%3D26649078&wuuid=5d62dec4f6734c4c56104afe4e3623b29cc775d20961 e8ca




REPORTER: Lebron had one of his best series in 09' against you guys.. Something like 38/8/8 or something

STAN VAN: Well, part of that was our plan, so blame it on me.. (goes on to explain how they virtually never doubled lebron or blitzed him on screens because they preferred him to score than pass)


They knew lebron didn't have the scoring ability to win the series by himself scoring-wise, so they let him score his maximum and shut down his teammates (a common strategy against Bron).

And that's the funniest part - Lebron was scoring his maximum under Stan's optimal conditions (no double teams and preferring him to score), yet he only averaged 38!!!!... :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: .. MJ might've averaged 50 under those conditions (but he he never faced those conditions)

Ultimately, MJ is far greater because he averaged 8 assists in many series FROM GETTING DOUBLED... So Jordan's stats force the defense to make adjustments and wears them down, whereas Lebron's stats are achieved while the defense didn't make any adjustments and was comfortable/fresh.. And since he isn't getting doubled, some of his assists are suboptimal (forced)..

Obviously, Jordan's opponent has less capacity to get hot offensively, considering they're confused and getting worn down defensively from the adjustments... otoh, the magic weren't making any defensive adjustments or getting worn down, so they were fresh and got hot offensively.
.

[keep-itreal]

This has more to do with how garbage Lebron's supporting cast are. When your second option is Mo Williams, you ain't winning shit

[CAstill]

Your preaching to choir. Exact same strategy they used for Dwade all the time. No one on here seems to understand this. This is literally the exact reason that Kobe and Jordan will always be better than Lebron and Wade. This strategy doesn't work on them

[zeerghit]

1 and 9

[bigkingsfan]

Ordan highest playoff series - swept.

[PickernRoller]

OP didn't have to do this. We knew already. A bunch of bran **** svcking alts claiming otherwise was never gonna change reality.

Retards live in their own little world. I will agree that trashing them once in a while is kinda fun.

[bullettooth]

How do you only score 38 when you've got the opposing team letting you score at will?

LeBron is trash.

[RRR3]

SVG also said LeBron>MJ

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/stan-van-gundy-believes-lebron-james-slightly-better-michael-jordan-210818325.html

[RealSkipBayless]

This has more to do with how garbage Lebron's supporting cast are. When your second option is Mo Williams, you ain't winning shit

Mo Williams is a mini curry according to 3ball. Sounds promising.

[72-10]

Yup. I think this has been brought up several times now. The idea was to let LeBron get his and still win the series.:lol

[72-10]

Mo Williams was good I don't know what you're talking about.:rolleyes:

[3ball]

This has more to do with how garbage Lebron's supporting cast are. When your second option is Mo Williams, you ain't winning shit


Mo Will 09' jECF:n. 18.0 on 37.5%... lost vs 58-win team and #4 SRS

Pippen 89' 1st Rd:. 15.0 on 39.7%... won vs 57-win team and #1 SRS



More horrible series for Pippen (ALL WINS):


1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2%

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%


:eek:


Oh, and:



MO.... WILLIAMS.... 09':. 18/3/5.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
KHRIS MIDDLETON 19':.'' 18/6/4.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws/48.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp


So Giannis and Lebron had comparable, 1-star casts, and 60-win favorites - but both failed to make the Finals despite being overwhelmingly expected to

This is a failure especially for Lebron, who was in his prime and in a conference where weak casts routinely made the Finals from 01-09' (5 times - 09' Dwight.. 07' Lebron.. 02/03 Kidd.. 01' AI).


Btw, don't give me bullshit about defense because those Cavs were great defensive teams - that was Mike Brown's calling card (that's how they took the Celts 7 games in 08', despite horrific play and efficiency from lebron)
.

[bigkingsfan]

SVG also said LeBron>MJ

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/stan-van-gundy-believes-lebron-james-slightly-better-michael-jordan-210818325.html
:roll:

[RRR3]

:roll:
3shook will avoid this.

[Manny98]

SVG also said LeBron>MJ

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/stan-van-gundy-believes-lebron-james-slightly-better-michael-jordan-210818325.html
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

SVG also said LeBron>MJ

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/stan-van-gundy-believes-lebron-james-slightly-better-michael-jordan-210818325.html


^^^ that's an opinion so who cares

his statements about letting lebron score are fact

[StrongLurk]

OP is legit retarded :facepalm

This "strategy" has been used or said about every single superstar ever.

The "superstar" is too good and will get his anyways so you try to shut down the rest of the players besides the "superstar".

Also once again OP can only focus on offense and apparently has never heard of the concept of defense being a factor in basketball.

[RRR3]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/9e7fc4236322f13b756b5479e4f890e2/tenor.gif
:roll:

[3ball]

OP is legit retarded :facepalm

This "strategy" has been used or said about every single superstar ever.

The "superstar" is too good and will get his anyways so you try to shut down the rest of the players besides the "superstar".
No, only lebron is never doubled by various teams and allowed to score

It was never the "plan" to let mj score and let him play single coverage


Still waiting for aj to get in here

He had a meltdown claiming Stan Van never said it and i was lying... But he did say it.. the 3ball don't lie

[3ball]

It's suboptimal to get 8 apg when you aren't being doubled - that means you're forcing assists - the defense is giving you a scoring opportunity and you're passing instead - playing into their hands

Lebron is a "genius" tho

Lebron's stats in that series should've been like 44/8/6

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

45:00 minute mark:

http://pc-cdn.espnradio.com/audio/303/2889/25370/3635686/lowepost_2019-05-01-154626-6427-0-2533-0.128.mp3?cdn_id=33&uuid=bfc06ae304b823d8e9970d0eadc419dc&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.espn.com%2Fgeneral%2Fplay%3 Fid%3D26649078&wuuid=5d62dec4f6734c4c56104afe4e3623b29cc775d20961 e8ca




REPORTER: Lebron had one of his best series in 09' against you guys.. Something like 38/8/8 or something

STAN VAN: Well, part of that was our plan, so blame it on me.. (goes on to explain how they virtually never doubled lebron or blitzed him on screens because they preferred him to score than pass)


They knew lebron didn't have the scoring ability to win the series by himself scoring-wise, so they let him score his maximum and shut down his teammates (a common strategy against Bron).

And that's the funniest part - Lebron was scoring his maximum under Stan's optimal conditions (no double teams and preferring him to score), yet he only averaged 38!!!!... :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: .. MJ might've averaged 50 under those conditions (but he he never faced those conditions)

Ultimately, MJ is far greater because he averaged 8 assists in many series FROM GETTING DOUBLED... So Jordan's stats force the defense to make adjustments and wears them down, whereas Lebron's stats are achieved while the defense didn't make any adjustments and was comfortable/fresh.. And since he isn't getting doubled, some of his assists are suboptimal (forced)..

Obviously, Jordan's opponent has less capacity to get hot offensively, considering they're confused and getting worn down defensively from the adjustments... otoh, the magic weren't making any defensive adjustments or getting worn down, so they were fresh and got hot offensively.
.


Mo Will 09' jECF:n. 18.0 on 37.5%... lost vs 58-win team and #4 SRS

Pippen 89' 1st Rd:. 15.0 on 39.7%... won vs 57-win team and #1 SRS



More horrible series for Pippen (ALL WINS):


1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2%

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%

https://im2.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-2-4aa9a77c38cb.gif

[RRR3]

Imagine saying someone averaging 38 PPG needed to score MORE.

[StrongLurk]

No, only lebron is never doubled by various teams and allowed to score

It was never the "plan" to let mj score and let him play single coverage


Still waiting for aj to get in here

He had a meltdown claiming Stan Van never said it and i was lying... But he did say it.. the 3ball don't lie

:roll:

Yeah and pigs fly. One bad thing about the internet is anyone can say anything they want, even when it's complete fiction. Again this same strategy you are talking about has been said about every single superstar at some point in their career.

Sorry we just aren't as retarded and obsessed about one player to be spending 24/7 looking for articles to post on here.

The reason you constantly get banned on other forums is because no sane person has the time or energy to keep up with your trolling.

[3ball]

:roll:

Yeah and pigs fly. One bad thing about the internet is anyone can say anything they want, even when it's complete fiction. Again this same strategy you are talking about has been said about every single superstar at some point in their career.

Sorry we just aren't as retarded and obsessed about one player to be spending 24/7 looking for articles to post on here.

The reason you constantly get banned on other forums is because no sane person has the time or energy to keep up with your trolling.
Everything i stated was a fact, but you can't refute any of it, so you're doing your best Hollywood ("can you believe how crazy this guy is?")

Single coverage is a common strategy against lebron, not a one-off - the warriors and other teams didn't double lebron either.

Otoh, other players get doubled as a standard like MJ and kobe... This is common in knowledge and easily provable, so you're immature for refuting it

[3ball]

Imagine saying someone averaging 38 PPG needed to score MORE.


Maybe he needed to score 40+ to win and maybe he didn't

But he needed to THREATEN and APPEAR like he could go off for 40 or 50 (by demonstrating a wet jumper and a dangerous repertoire) - then he'll start to get doubled and Cleveland can win... :applause:

But it's hard to fathom that one of the best players in today's game has such a massive weakness... The Cavs lost the 09' ECF as a massive favorite because lebron doesn't command a double-team, so role players can't get off... So there's no way this guy is anywhere near goat with massive weaknesses like that... :facepalm ..

(weak jumper... doesn't get doubled... too ball-dominant/weak cp3 brand and skillset)... Yikes . That's some blockbuster weaknesses right there, along with the rest (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=464238).

[Manny98]

When did MJ ever even average 38ppg against a defense as good as the 09 Magic :oldlol:

[3ball]

When did MJ ever even average 38ppg against a defense as good as the 09 Magic :oldlol:


He faced a tougher defensive series in most series that he played

The Magic's DRTG in that series was 110, so the scoring flow was pretty easy - MJ was in many series where the defense and flow was tougher than that

And he averaged 44/6/6 on 50% against the 86' Celtics and their #1 defense... Obviously, the Celtics are ridiculously better than Dwight's team

And of course the Bad Boys and Knicks had better defenses, while no spacing, hand-checking, paint congestion and physicality made it tougher to score against anyone back then, let alone the Celtics, Pistons or Knicks

[90sgoat]

The Van Gundys are both faced with a dilemma. They both like to speak their minds openly like men, but they also know who butters their bread.

[Manny98]

He faced a tougher defensive series in most series that he played

The Magic's DRTG in that series was 110, so the scoring flow was pretty easy - MJ was in many series where the defense and flow was tougher than that

And he averaged 44/6/6 on 50% against the 86' Celtics and their #1 defense... Obviously, the Celtics are ridiculously better than Dwight's team

And of course the Bad Boys and Knicks had better defenses, while no spacing, hand-checking, paint congestion and physicality made it tougher to score against anyone back then, let alone the Celtics, Pistons or Knicks
Celtics don't count as it was a 3 game series where he didn't even win a single game (2 blowouts so MJ basically statpadded that series)

He never averaged higher than 33ppg against the Pistons

Shot like garbage when he played the Knicks thank god for Pippen that series :roll:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-knicks.html

So MJ can't average 38ppg against elite defenses unless its empty statpadding in a sweep yikes

[3ball]

Hypothetical interview:

REPORTER: "So SVG, would you say lebron fell for your plan to play him straight up?"

SVG: "Hooked, line, and sinker"


the reality is that if lebron mixed off-ball into his game, SVG couldn't exploit him the way he did

[ImKobe]

Imagine saying someone averaging 38 PPG needed to score MORE.

25 points on 40% shooting in Game 6 but I'll let y'all tell it :rolleyes:

[3ball]

Celtics don't count as it was a 3 game series where he didn't even win a single game (2 blowouts so MJ basically statpadded that series)

He never averaged higher than 33ppg against the Pistons

Shot like garbage when he played the Knicks thank god for Pippen that series :roll:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-knicks.html

So MJ can't average 38ppg against elite defenses unless its empty statpadding in a sweep yikes


89' Cavs:..n102.9 drtg.. 2nd.. #1 SRS.. 7.7 net rating.. 107 drtg in 1st Rd
09' Magic:..101.9 drtg.. 1st... #4 SRS.. 7.3 net rating.. 110 drtg in ECF

Jordan 89' 1st Rd:.. 40/6/8 on 52%... incessant double-teams
Lebron 09'fECF:f.n. 38/8/8 on 49%... no double-teams


^^^^ The 89' Cavs had an elite defense that was basically equal to 09' Orlando in the regular season, and better in the playoffs.. Yet MJ performed better than Lebron despite facing doubles and lebron single-coverage..

MJ also averaged 40+ in an 86 pace Finals.... Only MJ, Kobe, and Shaq averaged over 30 in an under-90 pace Finals

[SouBeachTalents]

25 points on 40% shooting in Game 6 but I'll let y'all tell it :rolleyes:
Those are Kobe

[LAmbruh]

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]Those are Kobe

[3ball]

Imagine saying someone averaging 38 PPG needed to score MORE.


38 was enough to win if he was getting doubled

But he wasn't because he wasn't a big enough scoring threat to orlando

Accordingly, he needs to be a bigger perceived scoring threat (like MJ), so he gets doubled a lot and wins this kind of series like mj always did...

Heck, Lebron was heavily-favored to win - vegas must have figured he'd get double-teamed... :roll: :yaohappy:
.

[bigkingsfan]

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]Those are Kobe

[Manny98]

89' Cavs:..n102.9 drtg.. 2nd.. #1 SRS.. 7.7 net rating.. 107 drtg in 1st Rd
09' Magic:..101.9 drtg.. 1st... #4 SRS.. 7.3 net rating.. 110 drtg in ECF

Jordan 89' 1st Rd:.. 40/6/8 on 52%... incessant double-teams
Lebron 09'fECF:f.n. 38/8/8 on 49%... no double-teams


^^^^ The 89' Cavs had an elite defense that was basically equal to 09' Orlando in the regular season, and better in the playoffs.. Yet MJ performed better than Lebron despite facing doubles and lebron single-coverage..

MJ also averaged 40+ in an 86 pace Finals.... Only MJ, Kobe, and Shaq averaged over 30 in an under-90 pace Finals
Anyone can average 40 with Craig Ehlo guarding you the whole game :roll:

[3ball]

Anyone can average 40 with Craig Ehlo guarding you the whole game :roll:
Minutes per game in 89' 1st Round

Ron Harper - 37.8 (starter)
Craig Ehlo - 24.3 (backup)


Nice try

[aj1987]

This was your original quote, you autistic ****:

"The topic came up again when Stay Van Gundy recently said he exploited lebron's ball-dominant, iso-heavy skillset in that series (empty stats), which is how his underdog Magic beat Lebron's heavily-favored, 60-win, 1 seed.. it was the only thing Dwight and Stan did before or since.. "

What Stan actually said:

If we sent multiple players at LeBron, he was picking us apart, so we decided to stay on his teammates as they're not good enough to beat us.

How ****ing retarded are you?

Some more quotes from Stan on LeBron and that '09 series:

“If you look into the rest of my coaching career, I clearly didn’t have any formula to beat LeBron,” Van Gundy said. “Our theory defensively, we wanted him to be more of a scorer and less of a guy to help those guys play well. Those other guys needed LeBron to play well. He put up absolutely huge numbers, but we had more overall talent.”


Stan literally NEVER said that LeBron's play was the reason why the Cavs lost, however, he DID say that the reason why the Magic won was because they had the better team.

The fact that you're melting down over a series that LeBron lost over a decade ago just proves you have nothing worth living for, other than to hate on LeBron. Just kill yourself, retard.



MJ also averaged 40+ in an 86 pace Finals.... Only MJ, Kobe, and Shaq averaged over 30 in an under-90 pace Finals
You do know that LeBron averaged 34/9/10/1/1 at a pace of 90.7 and 36/13/9/1/1 at a pace of 90.7, right? Why the arbitrary 90 pace cut off, you cherry picking retard?


Your preaching to choir. Exact same strategy they used for Dwade all the time. No one on here seems to understand this. This is literally the exact reason that Kobe and Jordan will always be better than Lebron and Wade. This strategy doesn't work on them
:roll: :roll:

Quit posting, little girl.


SVG also said LeBron>MJ

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/stan-van-gundy-believes-lebron-james-slightly-better-michael-jordan-210818325.html
:roll:


Those are Kobe’s career elimination game and Finals stats :oldlol:
:roll:

https://media.giphy.com/media/Ig5BeMYJB3Fw4/giphy.gif

[SpaceJam]

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]Those are Kobe

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]Those are Kobe

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[RealSkipBayless]

3ball balls deep typing an essay response to AJ right now.

Edit: yep.

[MrFonzworth]

AJ shitting all over 3ball threads like they were the middle of the street:applause:

[PickernRoller]

3-ball got these Lehoes copying and pasting essays.

What a wreck.

[3ball]

This was your original quote, you autistic ****:

"The topic came up again when Stay Van Gundy recently said he exploited lebron's ball-dominant, iso-heavy skillset in that series (empty stats), which is how his underdog Magic beat Lebron's heavily-favored, 60-win, 1 seed.. it was the only thing Dwight and Stan did before or since.. "

What Stan actually said:

If we sent multiple players at LeBron, he was picking us apart, so we decided to stay on his teammates as they're not good enough to beat us.

How ****ing retarded are you?

Some more quotes from Stan on LeBron and that '09 series:

“If you look into the rest of my coaching career, I clearly didn’t have any formula to beat LeBron,” Van Gundy said. “Our theory defensively, we wanted him to be more of a scorer and less of a guy to help those guys play well. Those other guys needed LeBron to play well. He put up absolutely huge numbers, but we had more overall talent.”


Stan literally NEVER said that LeBron's play was the reason why the Cavs lost, however, he DID say that the reason why the Magic won was because they had the better team.

The fact that you're melting down over a series that LeBron lost over a decade ago just proves you have nothing worth living for, other than to hate on LeBron. Just kill yourself, retard.
Imagine having such weak scoring versatility that the opponent can employ a simple strategy and win - it's like:

"okay fellas, we know lebron will be dribbling at the top of the key most possessions and not always aggressive - so just stay at home and play straight-up D"

And they WON thay way - a simple strategy for a simple skillset (ball-dominance)... :facepalm ...

But if lebron was perceived as a bigger scoring threat and could get those same stats while mixing in a healthy chunk of off-ball, then Stan wouldn't be able to employ that simple strategy to win.. he'd have to employ more complicated shading and switching strategies for when MJ comes off screens or pindowns... And of course - double team - but the Magic would have to come quickly with the doubles because MJ isn't waiting around with the ball

So a whole different strategy would be needed against MJ and this would allow the Cavs realize their huge favorite status and win comfortably

Btw, with lebron getting the same stats but without dominating the ball, the team can ONLY be better because teammates have more time with the ball to get the same stats as before, or exceed their previous stats.. So teammate production increases from greater ball-time, and also from the double-teams and greater adjustments the Magic have to make - these things allow the Cavs realize their huge favorite status and win comfortably like they were supposed to..

[PickernRoller]

Ignore OP's first post, write wall of text... :oldlol: :oldlol:

By page 5 they'll be asking for mercy... usually in the form of doubling down with even more walls of texts. That's when you know you've cornered them.

[3ball]

Ultimately, not commanding double teams is another way that lebron can't elevate teammates, in addition to his ball-dominant skillset turning teamates into spot-up shooters

Glad MJ never had these massive, deal-breaking leaks in his game

[Hey Yo]

OP is legit retarded :facepalm

This "strategy" has been used or said about every single superstar ever.

The "superstar" is too good and will get his anyways so you try to shut down the rest of the players besides the "superstar".

Also once again OP can only focus on offense and apparently has never heard of the concept of defense being a factor in basketball.
I just started to watch game 1 of the 1986 Finals

Tom Heison quoted HOU head coach Bill Fitch.



"I'm more interested in stopping 2 Celtics than stopping 1"..... which obviously was a reference to Bird.

[FKAri]

Your preaching to choir. Exact same strategy they used for Dwade all the time. No one on here seems to understand this. This is literally the exact reason that Kobe and Jordan will always be better than Lebron and Wade. This strategy doesn't work on them
This was the strategy that was used vs Kobe that resulted in the biggest finals upset of the last 25 years you moron. Peak Bron, Wade, MJ are all > Kobe.

"But what’s going to happen is Mr. Bryant is going to get a little discouraged with getting no touches and now the second half comes around…now he’s pressing. He’s going to start coming down and just breaking the offense." - Chauncey Billups


As for the OP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S1Gp2iwos0

[SouBeachTalents]

[QUOTE=FKAri]This was the strategy that was used vs Kobe that resulted in the biggest finals upset of the last 25 years you moron. Peak Bron, Wade, MJ are all > Kobe.

"But what

[Mr Feeny]

Your preaching to choir. Exact same strategy they used for Dwade all the time. No one on here seems to understand this. This is literally the exact reason that Kobe and Jordan will always be better than Lebron and Wade. This strategy doesn't work on them

Dallas focused on stopping Wade yet he still torched them. Meanwhile the Suns in 2006 focused on Kobes supporting cast in game 7 and Kobe - who had no defensive attention- scored a single point.

[Hey Yo]

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]Those are Kobe

[LAmbruh]

we gettin real chubby bois :hammertime: :roll:

[34-24 Footwork]

AJ shitting all over 3ball threads like they were the middle of the street:applause:

:lol :lol

[aj1987]

Imagine having such weak scoring versatility that the opponent can employ a simple strategy and win - it's like:

"okay fellas, we know lebron will be dribbling at the top of the key most possessions and not always aggressive - so just stay at home and play straight-up D"

And they WON thay way - a simple strategy for a simple skillset (ball-dominance)... :facepalm ...

But if lebron was perceived as a bigger scoring threat and could get those same stats while mixing in a healthy chunk of off-ball, then Stan wouldn't be able to employ that simple strategy to win.. he'd have to employ more complicated shading and switching strategies for when MJ comes off screens or pindowns... And of course - double team - but the Magic would have to come quickly with the doubles because MJ isn't waiting around with the ball

So a whole different strategy would be needed against MJ and this would allow the Cavs realize their huge favorite status and win comfortably

Btw, with lebron getting the same stats but without dominating the ball, the team can ONLY be better because teammates have more time with the ball to get the same stats as before, or exceed their previous stats.. So teammate production increases from greater ball-time, and also from the double-teams and greater adjustments the Magic have to make - these things allow the Cavs realize their huge favorite status and win comfortably like they were supposed to..
This was your original quote, you autistic ****:

"The topic came up again when Stay Van Gundy recently said he exploited lebron's ball-dominant, iso-heavy skillset in that series (empty stats), which is how his underdog Magic beat Lebron's heavily-favored, 60-win, 1 seed.. it was the only thing Dwight and Stan did before or since.. "

What Stan actually said:

If we sent multiple players at LeBron, he was picking us apart, so we decided to stay on his teammates as they're not good enough to beat us.

How ****ing retarded are you?

Some more quotes from Stan on LeBron and that '09 series:

[StrongLurk]

Someone get the body bag for 3ball...my god.

It's one thing to say MJ is GOAT, pretty standard comment.

But the amount of time 3ball spends trying to troll Lebron just to see it constantly shut down is hilarious.

[3ball]

[QUOTE=aj1987]

This was your original quote, you autistic ****:

"The topic came up again when Stay Van Gundy recently said he exploited lebron's ball-dominant, iso-heavy skillset in that series (empty stats), which is how his underdog Magic beat Lebron's heavily-favored, 60-win, 1 seed.. it was the only thing Dwight and Stan did before or since.. "

What Stan actually said:

If we sent multiple players at LeBron, he was picking us apart, so we decided to stay on his teammates as they're not good enough to beat us.

How ****ing retarded are you?

Some more quotes from Stan on LeBron and that '09 series:

[FKAri]

My statements and Stan's say the same thing - Lebron's game and style made it appropriate for Stan to play him straight up

This is exploiting lebron's game and a flaw compared to MJ, who always commanded a double-team and defensive adjustments.. By not commanding double-teams, Lebron fails to free up and elevate teammates, or put sufficient pressure on the opponent's defense to wear them down..

Ultimately, the reason Stan can apply this strategy is because lebron dominates the ball most possessions and is often passive - but if lebron was perceived as a more aggressive scoring threat and could get those same stats while playing a chunk off-ball, then Stan wouldn't be able to employ that simple strategy to win.. he'd have to employ more complicated shading and switching strategies for when Lebron comes off screens or pindowns... And of course - double team.

So a whole different strategy would be needed against MJ and this would allow the Cavs realize their huge favorite status and win comfortably

Btw, with lebron getting the same stats but without dominating the ball, teammates' production increases from greater ball-time, and also from the double-teams and greater adjustments the Magic have to make - these things allow the Cavs realize their huge favorite status and win comfortably like they were supposed to.. But again, lebron's style prevents these adjustments and instead gets exploited, so he loses as the big favorite
Then why does Stan call Lebron the GOAT?

[sdot_thadon]

Besides getting ethered out of your chinese knock off air jordans, the only thing you've managed to prove with this post is how narrow your view of basketball is. You only see things through an air jordan shaped scope, it's sort of sad tbfh. In being so obsessed with Lebron and how he impacts Mj you miss the simple things.

Stan tried that strategy on Lebron for obvious reasons to any non idiot. The Cavs were a 66 win team, they didn't win that many games just because Lebron's a great scorer. They ranked 2nd in the nba in 3pt% and top 5 in attempts. Number 1 in points and fg% allowed. They were dangerous because Lebron was able to weaponize his teammates that season. Take away the weapons and the offense goes with it. Mj was never able to weaponize his teammates to such a degree so obviously no one would ever really think it made sense to play him that way. Different play styles require different solutions. You can't actually be this dense.

[superduper]

Then why does Stan call Lebron the GOAT?

Because Stan's boosting up his own legacy by saying that he beat the "GOAT".

It's a self-boosting claim on Stan's part.

[egokiller]

1 and 9

What is that wheels? Lebron's finals record without Ray Allen and Kyrie bailing him out? Good observation! :applause:

[Mr Feeny]

Then why does Stan call Lebron the GOAT?

It isnt exactly difficult to figure out why he might want that to be the narrative. Ofcourse, it doesn't make it true.

Moreover, as I pointed out (and apparently 3ball heard the same Mike and Mike interview), Stan originally had a very different account that he later contradicted.

[FKAri]

Because Stan's boosting up his own legacy by saying that he beat the "GOAT".

It's a self-boosting claim on Stan's part.
I know Stan. He's a good family man. He wouldn't lie.

[Ainosterhaspie]

As usual 3ball arguing that because LeBron is different from Jordan, Jordan is superior. Circular logic every time. LeBron forces teams to single cover him because he'll shred them with laser passes if they try to double. But that's a bad thing in 3Ball land.

I know, I know, the only way to win is the Jordan way even though Jordan's the only guy to ever win that way.

[Mr Feeny]

As usual 3ball arguing that because LeBron is different from Jordan, Jordan is superior. Circular logic every time. LeBron forces teams to single cover him because he'll shred them with laser passes if they try to double. But that's a bad thing in 3Ball land.

I know, I know, the only way to win is the Jordan way even though Jordan's the only guy to ever win that way.

I dont think you understand what that means.

[Mr Feeny]

I know Stan. He's a good family man. He wouldn't lie.

I know him more than you do. Family friend. Lies all the time.

[PickernRoller]

Wait a sec........ wait a damn sec....

So Kobe and Jordan got doubled teamed to hell and back and won 5 and 6 rings respectively.

Yet Bran, while in single-coverage, lost 6, in more tries?

Not only had Bran an easier ride thanks to superteaming, and league favors + a weak ass East; Bran was also gifted single coverage cause (according to his tards), his passing is so fearsome that opposing teams are obliged to do single coverage...... AND STILL, SOMEHOW this walking, breathing fraud barely got 3 rings (taken to 7 twice, bailed twice, w/ league favors etcc)...... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Only in their retarded brains all of that makes sense.

Can't make this shit up...

https://media2.giphy.com/media/aTWLVsvacZMVq/giphy.gif

[Ainosterhaspie]

I dont think you understand what that means.
Why is Jordan superior? Because he's different. Why is he different? Because he's superior. That's the essence of this argument once you strip away the fluff.

3ball argues LeBron didn't command double teams. Jordan did. Jordan is superior because of this. Someone may then ask "why does commanding double teams make someone superior." The answer is because that's what Jordan, the superior player, did.

And around and around we go. The play style is superior because the superior player did it that way. The player is superior because he played the superior play style.

[Mr Feeny]

Why is Jordan superior? Because he's different. Why is he different? Because he's superior. That's the essence of this argument once you strip away the fluff.

3ball argues LeBron didn't command double teams. Jordan did. Jordan is superior because of this. Someone may then ask "why does commanding double teams make someone superior." The answer is because that's what Jordan, the superior player, did.

And around and around we go. The play style is superior because the superior player did it that way. The player is superior because he played the superior play style.

Who said that though? 3ball? I think his argument was that the numbers Lebron put up weren't that impressive because he wasnt defended the way Jordan and most all time greats were. He was basically given no defensive attention whatsoever as the Magic attempted to shut down his supporting cast and beat them that way. That was what I understood from what he was posting.

If his argument mirrored what you were saying, then you're accurate in calling it circular reasoning.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Wait a sec........ wait a damn sec....

So Kobe and Jordan got doubled teamed to hell and back and won 5 and 6 rings respectively.

Yet Bran, while in single-coverage, lost 6, in more tries?

Not only had Bran an easier ride thanks to superteaming, and league favors + a weak ass East; Bran was also gifted single coverage cause (according to his tards), his passing is so fearsome that opposing teams are obliged to do single coverage...... AND STILL, SOMEHOW this walking, breathing fraud barely got 3 rings (taken to 7 twice, bailed twice, w/ league favors etcc)...... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Only in their retarded brains all of that makes sense.

Can't make this shit up...

https://media2.giphy.com/media/aTWLVsvacZMVq/giphy.gif

No its according to SVG. That's what the man said if you were paying attention earlier in the thread when he got quoted. They couldn't double LeBron. The result was even worse than let to him score 38ppg on elite efficiency. Teams would love to double LeBron, but that never works because he picks them apart with passing. Somehow I still hear halfwit announcers suggesting a team should double LeBron when he's shredding single coverage as if that hasn't been tried over and over again. 4v3 is better for the offense than 1v2.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Who said that though? 3ball? I think his argument was that the numbers Lebron put up weren't that impressive because he wasnt defended the way Jordan and most all time greats were. He was basically given no defensive attention whatsoever as the Magic attempted to shut down his supporting cast and beat them that way. That was what I understood from what he was posting.

If his argument mirrored what you were saying, then you're accurate in calling it circular reasoning.
I see the argument being that MJ forced double teams so he's better because forcing double teams is the better way to play because that's what MJ did.

SVG says they couldn't double team LeBron because he would beat them with passes. 3Ball thinks LeBron should force them to double so it will open up the game for the teammates. But as soon as they try it LeBron can boost the teammates. LeBron's strength is being twisted into a weakness. Teams could double MJ because he wasn't as good at exploiting doubles. But this is reconfigured into a strength. LeBron punishes teams everytime they try to double him, and this is somehow a flaw. And the basic reason it's viewed as a flaw is because MJ did things differently.

[Mr Feeny]

I see the argument being that MJ forced double teams so he's better because forcing double teams is the better way to play because that's what MJ did.

SVG says they couldn't double team LeBron because he would beat them with passes. 3Ball thinks LeBron should force them to double so it will open up the game for the teammates. But as soon as they try it LeBron can boost the teammates. LeBron's strength is being twisted into a weakness. Teams could double MJ because he wasn't as good at exploiting doubles. But this is reconfigured into a strength. LeBron punishes teams everytime they try to double him, and this is somehow a flaw. And the basic reason it's viewed as a flaw is because MJ did things differently.

The only issue I have with that is that I heard the Stan Van gundy interview myself. It was on Greenberg' old EPSN radio show. That's not what he said. He has given 2 different accounts. On the radio interview, he said nothing about Lebron being too good to be double teamed. He instead insinuated that this way the best way to beat the Cavs because Lebron is the type of player who would kill you if you played him like that unlike (in his example, Kobe,at the time).

The way he phrased it was that this was a winning strategy against the Cavs specifically because Lebron -unlike the other all time greats -couldnt punish you enough when you played him that way.

I'm guessing that's what 3ball is referring to. Because I cant imagine him referring to the 2nd Van gundy interview which is being quoted here and seems at odds with the first.

[Ainosterhaspie]

The only issue I have with that is that I heard the Stan Van gundy interview myself. It was on Greenberg' old EPSN radio show. That's not what he said. He has given 2 different accounts. On the radio interview, he said nothing about Lebron being too good to be double teamed. He instead insinuated that this way the best way to beat the Cavs because Lebron is the type of player who would kill you if you played him like that unlike (in his example, Kobe,at the time).

The way he phrased it was that this was a winning strategy against the Cavs specifically because Lebron -unlike the other all time greats -couldnt punish you enough when you played him that way.

I'm guessing that's what 3ball is referring to. Because I cant imagine him referring to the 2nd Van gundy interview which is being quoted here and seems at odds with the first.
I think you can synthesize the two statements into a consistent position. Playing 1v2 on offense is not the ideal way to play offense. MJ and Kobe were more inclined to go for the shot despite the double team than LeBron. This is not ideal offense. You are giving up a 4 on 3 opportunity by taking that shot. This is something the defense can try to exploit. Might as well defend with two players if he won't make you pay for that decision.

With LeBron it's different though. He will make you pay off you double. He wants the double team because now you've compromised the defense and he can exploit that. MJ and Kobe don't care about the double; they think they're going to score anyway. They're not as quick or eager to exploit it.

In a sense, you have to double MJ and Kobe; you can't double LeBron. You have to play him straight up and live with the results. I'm not trying to argue for one style or another here, just pointing out the differences.

[PickernRoller]

No its according to SVG. That's what the man said if you were paying attention earlier in the thread when he got quoted. They couldn't double LeBron. The result was even worse than let to him score 38ppg on elite efficiency. Teams would love to double LeBron, but that never works because he picks them apart with passing. Somehow I still hear halfwit announcers suggesting a team should double LeBron when he's shredding single coverage as if that hasn't been tried over and over again. 4v3 is better for the offense than 1v2.

So he had an easier ride being single-covered (meaning he had the opportunity, unlike Jordan and Kobe to beat his primary defender with no outside help) AND STILL lost 6 Finals. Cause we know damn well that's what the Spurs, the GSW and every team in the Finals he's ever match up with have done with him.

And it's not because his passing is elite and fearsome (although it's a factor) but because he's a poor volume jump shooter exposed as such in 2015 when he was forced to volume shoot and jack up shots with horrible efficiency against Iggy - tanking his team.

Lets for a second omit the fact that he shrank in 2011 while being single-covered by J.J Berea. Lets also omit the fact Bran got shut down in single coverage by Bruce "Kobe's bitch" Bowen in 2007. The Spurs in 2013, in Bran's fvcking prime almost got away with a ring by giving Bran a foot of space to shoot all series long - eliminating his driving lanes - cause Bran was afraid to shoot. Got bailed by Ray as we all know. Otherwise it was over in 6. Then his tards quote his game 7 stats as something to marvel and admire when Bran suddenly realized he was getting a foot of space to shoot. :oldlol: :oldlol:

You give Kobe a foot of space to shoot in his prime and that Spurs team isn't lasting more than 4 games... like in 2001 or in 08. Blown the fvck out. But Kobe and Jordan are different beasts.

Bran is single-covered cause he's a mental midget, whose offense comes in the flow and has little variability. That is why Bran has been most successful when he has an elite guard next to him - to take the difficult shots and be the x factor threat. It also eases the chance of having an open path to the basket with Pick and Rolls (get my man off please) from the key - what he's actually really good at.

Why did teams in the Finals also single-covered him? Cause they ain't gonna double Bran to watch his star teammates, Bosh and Wade or Kyrie and Love get hot and drop 25 or 30 on them EACH. It's not needed to double team Bran. The midget is that easy to deal with. Bran is also aware of his own short comings that's why he exclusively superteams with 2 all-stars. Get the load he can't handle off him.

Bran's a fraud but I do love his tards... the amount of spin they put into things is a thing to behold. :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

3Ball thinks LeBron should force them to double so it will open up the game for the teammates. But as soon as they try it LeBron can boost the teammates


Not just Lebron - anyone that gets doubled can boost teammates and hurt a defense just by giving up the ball and having teamates swing it around (while the defense frantically recovers) - Curry often does this - it's optimal basketball to have the defense scrambling and that's what double-teams do

So of course lebron can hurt the defense if he's doubled - anyone can.. But they have to actually GET doubled, and that's the issue for lebron - Stan said he doesn't punish you enough when you play him straight up, so he doesn't command double-teams.. that's a primary reason he's nowhere near MJ, and is inferior to Kobe.. these guys had better TEAMS than lebron in part because their double-teams scrambled the defense and ultimately won a lot more.

Btw, without getting doubled, Lebron has to sort of force an assist, which leads to holding the ball for longer and less ball movement.. This is the trend in most of his Finals - teams opt for the SVG strategy of not doubling, so lebron must hold the ball longer to get an assist, ultimately reducing the viability of the offense and team

[PickernRoller]

Not just Lebron - anyone that gets doubled can boost teammates and hurt a defense just by giving up the ball and having teamates swing it around (while the defense frantically recovers) - Curry often does this - it's optimal basketball to have the defense scrambling and that's what double-teams do

So of course lebron can hurt the defense if he's doubled - anyone can.. But they have to actually GET doubled, and that's the issue for lebron - Stan said he doesn't punish you enough when you play him straight up, so he doesn't command double-teams.. that's a primary reason he's nowhere near MJ, and is inferior to Kobe.. these guys had better TEAMS than lebron in part because their double-teams scrambled the defense and ultimately won a lot more.

Btw, without getting doubled, Lebron has to sort of force an assist, which leads to holding the ball for longer and less ball movement.. This is the trend in most of his Finals - teams opt for the SVG strategy of not doubling, so lebron must hold the ball longer to get an assist, ultimately reducing the viability of the offense and team

Pretty much. No team is also doubling Bran to let his all-stars teammates (capable of carrying teams) have an easy picking. And Bran stacks the deck with pairs of all-stars (Wade/Bosh, Kyrie/Love), not just a single one like Kobe or Jordan. The threat is too big. That's why when teams like the Spurs or Dirk's Mavs beat him, it exposed Bran for the fraud that he's. Stacking the deck to the brim and still getting beat by superior teamwork from teams with less star talent. When the playing field gets somewhat equal with the KD+ GSW his tards cry it's not fair yet that's what the Spurs and Mavs were facing when they squared up against Bran's BIG 3 in Miami and MADE no fvcking excuses - handling his @ss.

Can you give me a FRAUD!! FRAUD!! FRAUD!! FRAUD!!!

[3ball]

Pretty much. No team is also doubling Bran to let all-stars have an easy picking. And Bran stacks the deck with pairs of all-stars (Wade/Bosh, Kyrie/Love), not just one. The threat is too big.
You don't want great players with easy looks, and you don't want great players moving the ball either

That's why doubling is so dangerous, and only the best players require them

[PickernRoller]

You don't want great players with easy looks, and you don't want great players moving the ball either

That's why doubling is so dangerous, and only the best players require them

Bran gets the treatment once in a blue moon when he gets super hot - an exception not the norm. It catches oppossing teams so much by surprise that he's been able to rack up those monster games in his resume as a result. Teams don't go in even expecting those sort of performances. Case in point Game 6 of the 2012 ECF. Like, where the fvck you been for the previous 5 games nikka.. it's all the same single-coverage looks. Likewise for game 1 of the 2018 Finals... until he quit in overtime, and decides to not show up for the rest of the series and take the SWEEPING L.

Kid's a mental midget, and by extension, being such a coward, also a fraud. Despite having so many fvcking gifts.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Pretty much. No team is also doubling Bran to let his all-stars teammates (capable of carrying teams) have an easy picking. And Bran stacks the deck with pairs of all-stars (Wade/Bosh, Kyrie/Love), not just a single one like Kobe or Jordan. The threat is too big. That's why when teams like the Spurs or Dirk's Mavs beat him, it exposed Bran for the fraud that he's. Stacking the deck to the brim and still getting beat by superior teamwork from teams with less star talent. When the playing field gets somewhat equal with the KD+ GSW his tards cry it's not fair yet that's what the Spurs and Mavs were facing when they squared up against Bran's BIG 3 in Miamia and MADE no fvcking excuses - handling his @ss.

Can you give me a FRAUD!! FRAUD!! FRAUD!! FRAUD!!!

Maybe you missed that this discussion is talking about before he had those elite teammates and teams still couldn't double him.

Why do all the teams he's beaten over the years, with and without star teammates rarely double him? The don't double him tactic fails far more than it succeeds (if you want to pretend that's what led to his losses), so shouldn't those teams adjust somewhere along the way and start doubling when he's going off. Nope, they stick to the don't double game plan over and over again. Maybe, just maybe that's because he's really, really good at picking teams apart when they try doubling him. That's what SVG said even though we're apparently pretending like he didn't say that.

But if LeBron was less effective at punishing the double, then more doubles would come and he would be dealing with defenses treating him more like Jordan and Kobe. So he would be a better player even though the only change is weakening a part of his game.

[PickernRoller]

Pretty sure all the angles have been covered. Maybe you need to do a bit more reading on the posts you're purposefully omitting from quoting.. :roll: :roll:

[aj1987]

My statements and Stan's say the same thing - Lebron's game and style made it appropriate for Stan to play him straight up
3ball, you autistic ****. Let me try to dumb to down and break it down point by point.

1. SVG literally NEVER said that the Cavs lost because of LeBron's play - FACT.

2. SVG said that LeBron would've murdered them if they doubled him, because he's a great passer - FACT.

3. SVG said that the Magic had a better team than the Cavs and that's the reason why they won - FACT.


This is exploiting lebron's game and a flaw compared to MJ, who always commanded a double-team and defensive adjustments.. By not commanding double-teams, Lebron fails to free up and elevate teammates, or put sufficient pressure on the opponent's defense to wear them down..
How is that a flaw, you stupid braindead moron? LeBron is going to murder you with his passing, if you double him. It would've been over before it began. They knew that LeBron's teammates were worse (and SVG actually said that) than the Magic's players and thus, they stayed on them. Not just that, Howard went HAM on that inept Cavs front line, while he was limited by other teams.

Howard in the ECF - 26/13/3/1/1 on 65% (70% from the FT line on 11 attempts)

Howard in the Finals - 15/15/2/2/4 on 49% (60% from the FT line on 12 attempts)


Ultimately, the reason Stan can apply this strategy is because lebron dominates the ball most possessions and is often passive
Except for the FACT that SVG himself said something completely different.

“If you look into the rest of my coaching career, I clearly didn’t have any formula to beat LeBron,” Van Gundy said. “Our theory defensively, we wanted him to be more of a scorer and less of a guy to help those guys play well. Those other guys needed LeBron to play well. He put up absolutely huge numbers, but we had more overall talent.”


but if lebron was perceived as a more aggressive scoring threat and could get those same stats while playing a chunk off-ball, then Stan wouldn't be able to employ that simple strategy to win.. he'd have to employ more complicated shading and switching strategies for when Lebron comes off screens or pindowns... And of course - double team.
What the **** are you babbling about? You want the teams best player, who's 6'8" 260 lbs, running around screens and setting screens, instead of running the offense? Not to mention that this player is a GOAT level scorer and passer. That's beyond autistic and literally any coach in the history of the sport would set you on fire for even suggesting it.


So a whole different strategy would be needed against MJ and this would allow the Cavs realize their huge favorite status and win comfortably
There's literally ZERO chance of Ordan winning in LeBron's place. He not even remotely close to being as good of a passer as LeBron and he's a not going shut down Howard, who would still murder the Cavs' FC.


Btw, with lebron getting the same stats but without dominating the ball, teammates' production increases from greater ball-time
That's not how basketball works, you stupid ****. You think Magic playing off ball would've made the Lakers a better offense? You think Ordan having a Time of Possession of 3 minutes instead of 6-7 minutes a game would've made the Bulls twice as better?

If that's the case, can you tell me why Ordan didn't win more and went 1-9? I thought he was the GOAT...

Let's here it from stan one more time:

"we had more overall talent"

Holy shit, you're an idiot.



and also from the double-teams and greater adjustments the Magic have to make - these things allow the Cavs realize their huge favorite status and win comfortably like they were supposed to.. But again, lebron's style prevents these adjustments and instead gets exploited, so he loses as the big favorite
This was your original quote, you autistic ****:

"The topic came up again when Stay Van Gundy recently said he exploited lebron's ball-dominant, iso-heavy skillset in that series (empty stats), which is how his underdog Magic beat Lebron's heavily-favored, 60-win, 1 seed.. it was the only thing Dwight and Stan did before or since.. "

What Stan actually said:

If we sent multiple players at LeBron, he was picking us apart, so we decided to stay on his teammates as they're not good enough to beat us.

How ****ing retarded are you?

Some more quotes from Stan on LeBron and that '09 series:

“If you look into the rest of my coaching career, I clearly didn’t have any formula to beat LeBron,” Van Gundy said. “Our theory defensively, we wanted him to be more of a scorer and less of a guy to help those guys play well. Those other guys needed LeBron to play well. He put up absolutely huge numbers, but we had more overall talent.”


Stan literally NEVER said that LeBron's play was the reason why the Cavs lost, however, he DID say that the reason why the Magic won was because they had the better team.

The fact that you're melting down over a series that LeBron lost over a decade ago just proves you have nothing worth living for, other than to hate on LeBron. Just kill yourself, retard.



Who said that though? 3ball? I think his argument was that the numbers Lebron put up weren't that impressive because he wasnt defended the way Jordan and most all time greats were. He was basically given no defensive attention whatsoever as the Magic attempted to shut down his supporting cast and beat them that way. That was what I understood from what he was posting.

If his argument mirrored what you were saying, then you're accurate in calling it circular reasoning.
3ball admittedly has never watched a minute of basketball. It would actually have more meaning if he did watch basketball. Also, from HIS own post, SVG said that they had a defender on LeBron and whenever he drove, they helped defensively.

[Mr Feeny]

3ball admittedly has never watched a minute of basketball. It would actually have more meaning if he did watch basketball. Also, from HIS own post, SVG said that they had a defender on LeBron and whenever he drove, they helped defensively.

If that's the case, I'm not sure what to make of his post. I thought he had listened to the same interview that I did. If he's saying that they helped defensively on Lebron, then he's contradicting his own point.

[aj1987]

If that's the case, I'm not sure what to make of his post. I thought he had listened to the same interview that I did. If he's saying that they helped defensively on Lebron, then he's contradicting his own point.
He has changed his opinions multiple times in interviews (I've never heard the one you're talking about) since. One of which includes him calling LeBron the GOAT (do not agree with that). However, his statements on that '09 series in the interviews I've hears/read have been more or less accurate. The gist of it being - they could never stop LeBron, so the best thing to do was shut down his inferior (to the Magic's players) supporting cast. They were successful.

Also, the Cavs got wrecked by Howard. The Lakers' FC did a good job on him, but the Cavs' FC was just pitiful.

[sdot_thadon]

Topics like these tend to expose who acutally watched a series and who didn't. I've never seen the 09 ecf used this way. It was Lebron's best run to date at that time and one of the best statistical outputs ever. The losing didn't have as much to do with how they played Lebron as how the Cavs defense couldn't do anything with Orlando's offense. The magic offense shot 40% from 3, converting 20 more 3s than the Cavs did over 6 games. They just didn't have the personnel to matchup properly with them. Mike Brown couldn't figure out how to deal with Lewis and Hedo, Dwight was too fast for Big Z and too strong for Varajeo at that point in his career. Brown used Lebron to play free safety alot and they got burned by the shooting. I guess his plan was to have Lebron play help defense for all the bad matchups and it didn't work out.

The quote that attempts to be the premise of this thread? Laughable. That team was dangerous due to Lebron's passing more than his scoring. So it wouldn't take a genius to say we'd rather he not get the other guys going. Ironically his volume increased both in scoring and passing stats and his efficiency was near normal for that particular season. Anybody who watched that series in real time thought it was a great performance in a losing effort.

[Mr Feeny]

He has changed his opinions multiple times in interviews (I've never heard the one you're talking about) since. One of which includes him calling LeBron the GOAT (do not agree with that). However, his statements on that '09 series in the interviews I've hears/read have been more or less accurate. The gist of it being - they could never stop LeBron, so the best thing to do was shut down his inferior (to the Magic's players) supporting cast. They were successful.

Also, the Cavs got wrecked by Howard. The Lakers' FC did a good job on him, but the Cavs' FC was just pitiful.

But that's the opposite of what he said in the Mike and Mike interview that apparently 3ball also listened to. It wasn't that they couldnt shut down Lebron; it was that Lebron couldn't make you pay for not shutting him down the way (he mentions Kobe as an example) others could. So it was the right strategy in his mind.

He has since given interviews in which he's framed the strategy differently. I realize that he isnt the only guy in basketball to contradict himself at every turn and agree with what some on here have said about him having a stake in calling Lebron the GOAT. They beat the Cavs as underdogs and therefore this becomes a huge feather in his cap.

But it makes me not take him as seriously if he's flipflopping. Pippen,Barkley, Colin Cowherd are all examples of guys who do the same. You can find multiple interviews with each of them directly contradicting previous statements that they made. With people like that in not sure I put too much stock in anything they say. Whether I agree with their statements or not. Because a month later, they've got a different account.

[aj1987]

But that's the opposite of what he said in the Mike and Mike interview that apparently 3ball also listened to. It wasn't that they couldnt shut down Lebron; it was that Lebron couldn't make you pay for not shutting him down the way (he mentions Kobe as an example) others could. So it was the right strategy in his mind.

He has since given interviews in which he's framed the strategy differently. I realize that he isnt the only guy in basketball to contradict himself at every turn and agree with what some on here have said about him having a stake in calling Lebron the GOAT. They beat the Cavs as underdogs and therefore this becomes a huge feather in his cap.

But it makes me not take him as seriously if he's flipflopping. Pippen,Barkley, Colin Cowherd are all examples of guys who do the same. You can find multiple interviews with each of them directly contradicting previous statements that they made. With people like that in not sure I put too much stock in anything they say. Whether I agree with their statements or not. Because a month later, they've got a different account.
More than contradicting himself, he's clarifying himself. Again, I have actual sources to several times where he the something like this:

“If you look into the rest of my coaching career, I clearly didn’t have any formula to beat LeBron,” Van Gundy said. “Our theory defensively, we wanted him to be more of a scorer and less of a guy to help those guys play well. Those other guys needed LeBron to play well. He put up absolutely huge numbers, but we had more overall talent.”


There's also statistical and visual evidence disproving literally any and every asinine things that 3ball has spewed in this thread.

The Cavs didn't lose because LeBron has "dominating" the ball. They lost because LeBron's teammates were trash (according to SVG as well) and Dwight DOMINATED the Cavs' FC. Also, how was LeBron supposed to win, when his teammates play like dog shit (Mo - 37% overall FG%, West - 32% from deep, Big Z - LOL, Bench - non existent)? Not to mention a shit coach.

[Mr Feeny]

[QUOTE=aj1987]More than contradicting himself, he's clarifying himself. Again, I have actual sources to several times where he the something like this:

[aj1987]

3ball is out of his mind. I'm not agreeing with anything that he is saying. The Cavs certainly didnt lose because Lebron put up 38ppg and 8 apg on 48%fg. I was just saying that in fairness to him,some of what he was saying came from Van Gundy himself in the aftermath of the finals (not the crap about Lebron being the reason they lost but the defensive strategy and their thought process.)
Got it. My bad.

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

You guys are misinterpreting my point - I never said that Stan said lebron was the reason for the loss

I mentioned the Stan quote because he would never have been able to beat MJ that way

It doesn't matter that lebron averaged 38/8/8 because MJ wouldn't have lost to the Magic

So the Magic series demonstrates Lebron's inferiority to Jordan regardless of the stats - that's my point - in the context of comparing lebron to mj, lebron is the reason for the loss because MJ wouldn't have lost that series - and I think it's been explained extensively as to why

MJ would've gotten doubled thus spurring ball movement, and Stan would've had to play him a lot different because of the off-ball aspect (shading and doubling MJ off screens and pindowns, etc)... But against Lebron's skillset, just play him straight up... :oldlol: .. fukn hilarious

[bigkingsfan]

It doesn't matter that lebron averaged 38/8/8 because MJ wouldn't have lost to the Magic

31/7/4

https://images.solecollector.com/complex/image/upload/m7tdrq1uqt9yxrjdnjne.jpg

[3ball]

31/7/4

https://images.solecollector.com/complex/image/upload/m7tdrq1uqt9yxrjdnjne.jpg
Shaq and Penny > Dwight and Skip to my Lou

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq and Penny > Dwight and Skip to my Lou
Pippen & Phil >>>>> Mo Will & Mike Brown

[3ball]

Pippen & Phil >>>>> Mo Will & Mike Brown
Mike Brown won 66 games while Phil was barely .500 until MJ came back.. So no

Here's a question - if Lebron was on the 89' Bulls instead of Jordan, do you think assistant coach Phil would've been sitting on the bench thinking "man, I can't wait to take over this ship and install the triangle - lebron's game would fit it well"

Not a chance.. But he thought that about MJ's game... So MJ and his goat skillset made Phil - indeed, MJ was the goat candidate in 1990, while phil was the 1st-time nobody coach

And Pippen wasn't much better than Mo (19 on 40.9% versus 18 on 37.5 for Mo)... Cavs already had the better defensive team, so that's irrelevant

[3ball]

Lebron isn't the only guy that can hurt a defense if he's doubled - anyone can just by giving up the ball and having teammates swing it around (while the defense frantically recovers) - Curry often does this - it's optimal basketball to have the defense scrambling and that's what double-teams do

So lebron can certainly hurt the defense if he's doubled - anyone can.. But they have to actually GET doubled, and that's the issue for lebron - Stan said he doesn't punish you enough when you play him straight up, so he doesn't command double-teams.. that's a primary reason he's nowhere near MJ, and is inferior to Kobe.. these guys had better TEAMS than lebron in part because their double-teams scrambled the defense and ultimately won a lot more.

Btw, without getting doubled, Lebron has to sort of force an assist, which leads to holding the ball for longer and less ball movement.. This is the trend in most of his Finals - teams opt for the SVG strategy of not doubling, so lebron must hold the ball longer to get an assist, ultimately reducing the viability of the offense and team


aj1947 and others avoided this post

Wonder why

[Mr Feeny]

Pippen & Phil >>>>> Mo Will & Mike Brown

How many titles had Phil won before Jordan got him?
How many titles has Pop won without Duncan?

All time greats lead their teams to titles and the coachea' legacies keep getting enhanced.
If Lebron had won 4 titles in Miami when the Heat had the most talented roster in the entire league, Spolstra' legacy would be better.

[3ball]

Good job to everyone itt.. :cheers:.. we've successfully exposed a huge myth:

The reason lebron isn't doubled isn't that he'll hurt the defense - because anyone that gets doubled will hurt the defense by giving it up and swinging the ball around to scramble the defense (double-teams are a common source of ball-movement)

The real reason lebron isn't doubled by SVG or the Spurs/Warriors is because he won't punish the opponent sufficiently with his scoring, which allows the defense to stay at home on teammates

With the defense staying home, lebron holds the ball for longer and the ball doesn't move like it does when someone gets doubled.. the lack of double teams is actually a primary reason lebron's teams have low ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player)

Again, really good job fellas... :applause:

[bigkingsfan]

Shaq and Penny > Dwight and Skip to my Lou
One team got swept in the finals. :roll:

[3ball]

One team got swept in the finals. :roll:
That proves the 90's were a tougher era, since Shaq/penny got swept but dwight didn't

Also, double teams spur ball movement and a scrambling defense (like when curry or anyone gets doubled), so the reason lebron isn't doubled has nothing to do with him hurting the defense with passing (since all double teams spur ball movement and scrambling defense)

The real reason lebron isn't doubled by SVG or the Spurs/Warriors is because he won't punish the opponent sufficiently with his scoring, which allows the defense to stay at home on teammates

Since double teams spur ball movement, o the lack of double teams is a primary reason lebron's teams have low ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player).. with the defense staying home, lebron must hold the ball for longer, so the ball doesn't move like it does when someone gets doubled

[Mr Feeny]

Good job to everyone itt.. :cheers:.. we've successfully exposed a huge myth:

The reason lebron isn't doubled isn't that he'll hurt the defense - because anyone that gets doubled will hurt the defense by giving it up and swinging the ball around to scramble the defense (double-teams are a common source of ball-movement)

The real reason lebron isn't doubled by SVG or the Spurs/Warriors is because he won't punish the opponent sufficiently with his scoring, which allows the defense to stay at home on teammates

With the defense staying home, lebron holds the ball for longer and the ball doesn't move like it does when someone gets doubled.. the lack of double teams is actually a primary reason lebron's teams have low ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player)

Again, really good job fellas... :applause:

Yeah I have no arguments there. Stan Van gundy pretty much said that himself after the finals. What I disagree with is you saying that the reason the Cavs lost was Lebron.

[bigkingsfan]

That proves the 90's were a tougher era, since Shaq/penny got swept but dwight didn't

They were the only team that got swept.

While it happened twice in the 2000's, so that makes it tougher.

[Mr Feeny]

They were the only team that got swept.

While it happened twice in the 2000's, so that makes it tougher.

The 90s and the early 2000's were tougher than this era. We all agree. Not sure what you're on about.

[bigkingsfan]

The 90s and the early 2000's were tougher than this era. We all agree. Not sure what you're on about.
Not according to 2Ball, and the current era is just as tough, one sweep vs the 90's.

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

Yeah I have no arguments there. Stan Van gundy pretty much said that himself after the finals. What I disagree with is you saying that the reason the Cavs lost was Lebron.
I clarified things in the post at the top of the previous page, which ill reiterate:

In the context of Lebron vs. MJ, the loss is lebron's fault because mj would've won that series - the method that Stan said he used to beat Lebron wouldn't work on MJ (Pistons needed the "Jordan Rules", especially after Game 3 in 89')

Stan would have to double Jordan, and also deal woth the off-ball aspect - shading and doubling MJ off screens and pindowns, etc, versus playing straight-up versus lebron's skillset.. night and day.. Lebron was a massive favorite and should've won if we're comparing him to mj
.

[superduper]

I clarified things in the post at the top of this page, which ill reiterate:

In the context of Lebron vs. MJ, the loss is lebron's fault because mj would've won that series - the method that Stan said he used to beat Lebron wouldn't work on MJ (Pistons needed the "Jordan Rules", especially after Game 3 in 89')

Stan would have to double Jordan, and also deal woth the off-ball aspect - shading and doubling MJ off screens and pindowns, etc, versus playing straight-up versus lebron's skillset

3ball's points are so refreshing to read compared to the nonsensical spew from people like Corp/And1.

When people actually understand basketball :applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe waited 2 years, when both he and Lebron's teams were favored.

Bron said I'll catch you on the come up. But with MONstars.

The disrespect ... :no:

[3ball]

double teams spur ball movement and a scrambling defense (like when curry or anyone gets doubled), so the reason lebron isn't doubled has nothing to do with him hurting the defense with passing (since all double teams spur ball movement and scrambling defense)

The real reason lebron isn't doubled by SVG or the Spurs/Warriors is because he won't punish the opponent sufficiently with his scoring (according to SVG), which allows the defense to stay at home on teammates

Since double teams spur ball movement, the lack of double teams is a primary reason lebron's teams have low ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player).. with the defense staying home, lebron must hold the ball for longer, so the ball doesn't move like it does when someone gets doubled - yes, lebron's inability to command a double is a MASSIVE flaw versus other players because of the weaker ball movement it causes for his team

[3ball]

3ball's points are so refreshing to read compared to the nonsensical spew from people like Corp/And1.

When people actually understand basketball :applause:
Thanks Super

It took me a few pages, but i finally clarified myself and the points being made in the previous post above this one, and the post that you just quoted (#106)

[StrongLurk]

Lebron first 5 games of the Magic series.

41/9/8 on 50/31/76 including clutch buckets in game 1 (Magic were also clutch) and a game winner in game 2. (can't remember if the other games had clutch shots by Lebron, would have to watch again).

OP is so shook by Lebron it's crazy.

[RRR3]

Kobe waited 2 years, when both he and Lebron's teams were favored.

Bron said I'll catch you on the come up. But with MONstars.

The disrespect ... :no:
LeBron made the finals before Kobe ever did without Shaq. Where was Kobe?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron made the finals before Kobe ever did without Shaq. Where was Kobe?

The year Lebron made the finals, Kobe was on a shit team.

Pretty sure Cleveland in 2009 and 2010 were favored to make the finals. Ditto with LAL.

Bron left Bean hanging tho.

[3ball]

OP is so shook by Lebron it's crazy


I clarified things in the post at the top of the previous page, which ill reiterate:

In the context of Lebron vs. MJ, the loss is lebron's fault because mj would've won that series - the method that Stan said he used to beat Lebron wouldn't work on MJ (Pistons needed the "Jordan Rules", especially after Game 3 in 89')

Stan would have to double Jordan, and also deal with the off-ball aspect - shading and doubling MJ off screens and pindowns, etc, versus playing straight-up versus lebron's skillset.. night and day.. Lebron was a massive favorite and should've won if we're comparing him to mj

The next response means below clarifies the impact of Lebron not commanding double-teams





Lebron first 5 games of the Magic series.

41/9/8 on 50/31/76 including clutch buckets in game 1 (Magic were also clutch) and a game winner in game 2. (can't remember if the other games had clutch shots by Lebron, would have to watch again).


^^^ stats don't matter if your teammates are being bottled up by a straight-up/stay-at-home defense.

double teams spur ball movement and a scrambling defense (like when curry or anyone gets doubled), so the reason lebron isn't doubled has nothing to do with him hurting the defense with passing (since all double teams spur ball movement and scrambling defense)

The real reason lebron isn't doubled by SVG or the Spurs/Warriors is because he won't punish the opponent sufficiently with his scoring (according to SVG), which allows the defense to stay at home on teammates

Since double teams spur ball movement, the lack of double teams is a primary reason lebron's teams have low ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player).. Lebron must hold the ball for longer against a stay-at-home defense, so the ball doesn't move like it does when someone gets doubled - yes, lebron's inability to command a double is a MASSIVE flaw versus other players because of the weaker ball movement it causes for his team

[StrongLurk]

I clarified things in the post at the top of the previous page, which ill reiterate:

In the context of Lebron vs. MJ, the loss is lebron's fault because mj would've won that series - the method that Stan said he used to beat Lebron wouldn't work on MJ (Pistons needed the "Jordan Rules", especially after Game 3 in 89')

Stan would have to double Jordan, and also deal with the off-ball aspect - shading and doubling MJ off screens and pindowns, etc, versus playing straight-up versus lebron's skillset.. night and day.. Lebron was a massive favorite and should've won if we're comparing him to mj

The next response means below clarifies the impact of Lebron not commanding double-teams



^^^ stats don't matter if your teammates are being bottled up by a straight-up/stay-at-home defense.

double teams spur ball movement and a scrambling defense (like when curry or anyone gets doubled), so the reason lebron isn't doubled has nothing to do with him hurting the defense with passing (since all double teams spur ball movement and scrambling defense)

The real reason lebron isn't doubled by SVG or the Spurs/Warriors is because he won't punish the opponent sufficiently with his scoring (according to SVG), which allows the defense to stay at home on teammates

Since double teams spur ball movement, the lack of double teams is a primary reason lebron's teams have low ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player).. Lebron must hold the ball for longer against a stay-at-home defense, so the ball doesn't move like it does when someone gets doubled - yes, lebron's inability to command a double is a MASSIVE flaw versus other players because of the weaker ball movement it causes for his team

No one agrees with you except your fellow Lebron haters.

[PickernRoller]

Lurk, you a certified fresh Bran c0cksucker. You got no standing brah. Be real.

[aj1987]

You guys are misinterpreting my point - I never said that Stan said lebron was the reason for the loss
You actually did though, you inbred ******. You said that several times.

Here's your original quote:

"The topic came up again when Stay Van Gundy recently said he exploited lebron's ball-dominant, iso-heavy skillset in that series (empty stats), which is how his underdog Magic beat Lebron's heavily-favored, 60-win, 1 seed.. it was the only thing Dwight and Stan did before or since.. "

You literally said LeBron was the reason why the Cavs lost that series.


I mentioned the Stan quote because he would never have been able to beat MJ that way
Except for the FACT that the Magic would've obliterated Ordan. We've seen what the choker was capable of without Pippen. With LeBron's supporting cast, he would be extremely lucky to make the 2nd round, let alone the ECF.



It doesn't matter that lebron averaged 38/8/8 because MJ wouldn't have lost to the Magic
It doesn't matter that Ordan averaged whatever he did. LeBron would've done better with the supporting casts that Ordan, against Ordan's competition.



So the Magic series demonstrates Lebron's inferiority to Jordan regardless of the stats - that's my point
No, it just exposes your rodent level IQ and lack of understanding actual basketball, which stems from - a. Your rodent level intellect and b. You never having watched a minute of basketball.



n the context of comparing lebron to mj, lebron is the reason for the loss because MJ wouldn't have lost that series - and I think it's been explained extensively as to why
Ordan wouldn't have lost that series, because he wouldn't have made it out of the first round. This has been well documented. 1-9 without Pippen. Again, in '09, in LeBron's place, Ordan would've been swept in the first round, due to the lack to Mr. Pippen.



MJ would've gotten doubled thus spurring ball movement, and Stan would've had to play him a lot different because of the off-ball aspect (shading and doubling MJ off screens and pindowns, etc)... But against Lebron's skillset, just play him straight up... :oldlol: .. fukn hilarious
You rodent intellect ****. Let me try again.

1. The reason why LeBron wasn't doubled was because LeBron would rape the Magic with his passing.

2. LeBron's supporting cast was significantly inferior to the players on the Magic (outside Dwight).

3. The Cavs had no one to contain Dwight and it showed with the difference of his play from the ECF to the Finals.

4. Ordan lost series while averaging better numbers. How did that happen?

[3ball]

No one agrees with you except your fellow Lebron haters.
SVG agrees - he said lebron doesn't punish you enough as a scorer to double him

Obviously, mj was never beaten that way - he was beaten BY double teaming (the Pistons used the Jordan Rules, aka double-teaming)

Double teams allow a team to swing the ball and scramble the defense - a lebron-team can't do this against SVG, while an MJ team can.. Since double teams spur ball movement, the lack of double teams is a primary reason lebron's teams have low ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'll give you 2010.

Lebron had the weirdass "elbowgate" incident.

Blaming him for 2009 is dumb as hell though :oldlol: Even if you compare him with Jordan, its a futile argument. MJ's Cleveland team would have looked wayyy different. In 2009, Mo Williams was a pretty good compliment to Lebron. With Jordan? I don't think he would be. Comparing him to Scottie is insane.

[aj1987]

How many titles had Phil won before Jordan got him?
How many titles has Pop won without Duncan?

All time greats lead their teams to titles and the coachea' legacies keep getting enhanced.
If Lebron had won 4 titles in Miami when the Heat had the most talented roster in the entire league, Spolstra' legacy would be better.
That would make more sense if Wade was healthy past '11. Not making excuses for LeBron's awful performance in the '11 Finals, but even in the '11 Finals, Wade was injured.

https://www.espn.in/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=6646323

Even with LeBron's choke, the Heat would've won without Wade's injury (story of Wade's career :facepalm).


I clarified things in the post at the top of the previous page, which ill reiterate:

In the context of Lebron vs. MJ, the loss is lebron's fault because mj would've won that series - the method that Stan said he used to beat Lebron wouldn't work on MJ (Pistons needed the "Jordan Rules", especially after Game 3 in 89')

Stan would have to double Jordan, and also deal woth the off-ball aspect - shading and doubling MJ off screens and pindowns, etc, versus playing straight-up versus lebron's skillset.. night and day.. Lebron was a massive favorite and should've won if we're comparing him to mj
.
Ordan wouldn't have lost that series, because he wouldn't have made it out of the first round. This has been well documented. 1-9 without Pippen. Again, in '09, in LeBron's place, Ordan would've been swept in the first round, due to the lack to Mr. Pippen.

You rodent intellect ****. Let me try again.

1. The reason why LeBron wasn't doubled was because LeBron would rape the Magic with his passing.

2. LeBron's supporting cast was significantly inferior to the players on the Magic (outside Dwight).

3. The Cavs had no one to contain Dwight and it showed with the difference of his play from the ECF to the Finals.

4. Ordan lost series while averaging better numbers. How did that happen?

[StrongLurk]

SVG agrees - he said lebron doesn't punish you enough as a scorer to double him

Obviously, mj was never beaten that way - he was beaten BY double teaming (the Pistons used the Jordan Rules, aka double-teaming)

Double teams allow a team to swing the ball and scramble the defense - a lebron-team can't do this against SVG, while an MJ team can.. Since double teams spur ball movement, the lack of double teams is a primary reason lebron's teams have low ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player).

SVG thinks Bron is better than MJ.

[3ball]

You actually did though, you inbred ******. You said that several times.

Here's your original quote:

"The topic came up again when Stay Van Gundy recently said he exploited lebron's ball-dominant, iso-heavy skillset in that series (empty stats), which is how his underdog Magic beat Lebron's heavily-favored, 60-win, 1 seed.. it was the only thing Dwight and Stan did before or since.. "

You literally said LeBron was the reason why the Cavs lost that series.


Then I clarified my poor articulation by saying that lebron is the reason for the loss within the context of Lebron vs MJ, since MJ would've won the series..

(by not being susceptible to the strategy that SVG bragged he used on lebron to win, and also because mj simply never lost as a favorite, let alone massive favorite)





Except for the FACT that the Magic would've obliterated Ordan. We've seen what the choker was capable of without Pippen. With LeBron's supporting cast, he would be extremely lucky to make the 2nd round, let alone the ECF.


Pippen averaged 9.7 ppg on 39.7% when MJ took the the Bad Boys 6 Games in 89' ECF

So Mo Williams' 18 on 38% would be more than enough to beat a dwight team..

Heck, MJ's 6 seed beat the #1 SRS in the league in 89' (57-win Cavs) with Pippen getting 15.0 on 39.7% - so a 1 seed plus Mo's better production would easily beat Dwight in 09'






It doesn't matter that Ordan averaged whatever he did. LeBron would've done better with the supporting casts that Ordan, against Ordan's competition.


You ignored/omitted the other context of that sentence

I said that lebron's stats didn't matter when his teammates were being bottled up by a stay-at-home defense, due to lebron's lack of doubles

Yes, we know his nice-looking stats kept the Cavs in the game, but a better approach (attracting doubles) would've resulted in better TEAM production





Ordan wouldn't have lost that series, because he wouldn't have made it out of the first round. This has been well documented. 1-9 without Pippen. Again, in '09, in LeBron's place, Ordan would've been swept in the first round, due to the lack to Mr. Pippen.


It's funny because lebron can't win a ring without 2 star teammates - thays an actual fact - whereas we all know mj can make 2nd Rd without pip... :rolleyes:





You rodent intellect ****. Let me try again.

1. The reason why Lebron wasn't doubled was because Lebron would rape the Magic with his passing.


Yes, but to rape the Magic with passing, Lebron has to actually GET doubled - that didn't happen because SVG says he doesn't punish enough as a scorer..

and btw, anyone that gets doubled can rape an opponent with passing just by giving up the ball and watching the defense scramble as the ball is swung (like when curry or anyone gets doubled)

double teams cause a scrambling defense and ball movement, which is optimal basketball.. but lebron's cavs couldn't play this way because SVG said he wasn't worth doubling





2. LeBron's supporting cast was significantly inferior to the players on the Magic (outside Dwight).


Gtfo, the Cavs were massive favorites and the magic were without their all-star PG





3. The Cavs had no one to contain Dwight and it showed with the difference of his play from the ECF to the Finals.


YES, SO HE ATTRACTED DOUBLES... :facepalm .. you rat f.uck





4. Ordan lost series while averaging better numbers. [I]How did that happen?


an actual talent deficit and ubderdog status

[RRR3]

MJ would not have won that series lmao.

Name a single time he won a series with a second option on Mo Williams’ level as a player.

[3ball]

SVG thinks Bron is better than MJ.
^^^thats an opinion though

His statements about not doubling lebron and their strategy were fact and the historical record

[Wally450]

[QUOTE=RRR3]MJ would not have won that series lmao.

Name a single time he won a series with a second option on Mo Williams

[StrongLurk]

^^^thats an opinion though

His statements about not doubling lebron and their strategy were fact and the historical record

They did double Lebron though, you should watch the series again.

And Stan thinking Lebron is better than MJ means he thinks he can gameplan better for MJ than Lebron. You should know this if it's the head coaches "opinion".

All you are doing is melting down and not convincing anybody of anything.

[3ball]

They did double Lebron though, you should watch the series again.

And Stan thinking Lebron is better than MJ means he thinks he can gameplan better for MJ than Lebron. You should know this if it's the head coaches "opinion".

All you are doing is melting down and not convincing anybody of anything.
SVG said they didn't double, and they didn't just like the Spurs and Warriors didn't in 14', 15', 17', and 18 Finals

That's the historical record, and SVG's opinion of mj vs lebron is therefore less important

Even ESPN showed clip where they said lebron was doubled 5% of his touches in the 15' Finals, and how that was ridiculously low

And no, "harder to beat" doesn't have to equal "goat" in someone's mind.. his strategy against lebron ("straight up") certainly appears to be simpler than what it would be for mj (doubles and also off-ball defense, i.e. shading/doubling on screens, pindowns, etc

[aj1987]

Then I clarified my poor articulation by saying that lebron is the reason for the loss [I]within the context of Lebron vs MJ, since MJ would've won the series..
Ordan wouldn't have lost that series, because he wouldn't have made it out of the first round. This has been well documented. 1-9 without Pippen. Again, in '09, in LeBron's place, Ordan would've been swept in the first round, due to the lack to Mr. Pippen.



(by not being susceptible to the strategy that SVG bragged he used on lebron to win, and also because mj simply never lost as a favorite, let alone massive favorite)
You rodent intellect ****. Let me try again.

1. The reason why LeBron wasn't doubled was because LeBron would rape the Magic with his passing.

2. LeBron's supporting cast was significantly inferior to the players on the Magic (outside Dwight).

3. The Cavs had no one to contain Dwight and it showed with the difference of his play from the ECF to the Finals.

4. Ordan lost series while averaging better numbers. How did that happen?



Pippen averaged 9.7 ppg on 39.7% when MJ took the the Bad Boys 6 Games in 89' ECF
So what you're saying is that Ordan killed the team by marginalizing his teammates and thus losing the series? Maybe if Ordan doesn't play cancer ball, the Bulls would've won the series.


So Mo Williams' 18 on 38% would be more than enough to beat a dwight team..
Not really, considering the FACT that the Bulls shot better than Pistons overall and still lost. MJ's cancerous style of basketball lost them that series.


Heck, MJ's 6 seed beat the #1 SRS in the league in 89' (57-win Cavs) with Pippen getting 15.0 on 39.7% - so a 1 seed plus Mo's better production would easily beat Dwight in 09'
LeBron on a 55 win team beat a 73 win (GOAT Team) in the Finals, and he did that while leading both teams in all the five major statistical categories. The only person in the history of the sport to ever do it in ANY series.


You ignored/omitted the other context of that sentence

I said that lebron's stats didn't matter when his teammates were being bottled up by a stay-at-home defense, due to lebron's lack of doubles

Yes, we know his nice-looking stats kept the Cavs in the game, but a better approach (attracting doubles) would've resulted in better TEAM production
How did all that attraction of double teams help Ordan when he went 1-9? A career loser who couldn't get past the first round without Pippen.

Meanwhile, LeBron was making the Finals with the likes of Boobie Gibson and the person whose word you're using as gospel called him the GOAT.

That shit much burn extremely deep, you glue huffing ******.




It's funny because lebron can't win a ring without 2 star teammates - thays an actual fact - whereas we all know mj can make 2nd Rd without pip... :rolleyes:
Except for the ACTUAL FACT that Ordan NEVER made it past the first round without Pippen. Dude was a cancerous loser without Pippen. That's a fact. Funny how you don't know shit about your own idol, shit for brains.



Yes, but to rape the Magic with passing, Lebron has to actually GET doubled - that didn't happen because SVG says he doesn't punish enough as a scorer..

That's because:

[Manny98]

3ball getting wrecked jesus :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

no pip no chip

1-9

we done ?

[StrongLurk]

SVG said they didn't double, and they didn't just like the Spurs and Warriors didn't in 14', 15', 17', and 18 Finals

That's the historical record, and SVG's opinion of mj vs lebron is therefore less important

Even ESPN showed clip where they said lebron was doubled 5% of his touches in the 15' Finals, and how that was ridiculously low

And no, "harder to beat" doesn't have to equal "goat" in someone's mind.. his strategy against lebron ("straight up") certainly appears to be simpler than what it would be for mj (doubles and also off-ball defense, i.e. shading/doubling on screens, pindowns, etc

Lebron WAS double teamed though, that is historical record.

It was SVG's opinion that they "didn't double", which could mean they didn't double AS MUCH as they could other superstars who couldn't pass like Lebron.

But Lebron was absolutely doubled teams often in the 09 Magic series.

Also, SVG thinks Lebron is better than MJ, hence harder to stop from having impact.

3ball doesn't have a single coherent argument in this thread, which is hilarious. Keep tripping over your own feet.

[3ball]

3ball getting wrecked jesus :oldlol:
No my post #122 destroyed him, so he copy-pasted all the same things that #122 just resoonded to, as his responses to #122.... like a child... :rolleyes: .. 3ball wins

[3ball]

Lebron WAS double teamed though, that is historical record.

It was SVG's opinion that they "didn't double", which could mean they didn't double AS MUCH as they could other superstars who couldn't pass like Lebron.

But Lebron was absolutely doubled teams often in the 09 Magic series.

Also, SVG thinks Lebron is better than MJ, hence harder to stop from having impact.
based on SVG's actual comments, we can assume that at a minimum, he wanted his team's overall inclination to be not to double Lebron - i.e. don't gamble with it - only when it won't hurt the team

Lebron also wasn't doubled vs the Spurs or Warriors... This is common knowledge - this (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-22-2019/6e5aBZ.gif) popped up with a simple google search -

Since lebron doesn't get doubled and has a ball-dominant skillset, his teams lack premium ball movement thay can effectively compete on the championship level..

Btw, you keep saying that if Lebron got doubled, he would effectively pass and destroy it - but he doesn't get doubled, and therefore can be defeated like SVG and others have done.. If he could beat you with scoring, then SVG's strategy wouldn't work - but apparently he's not beating you with scoring and never has - does he have any series victories where he averages 35+.... :biggums:

[StrongLurk]

based on SVG's actual comments, we can assume that at a minimum, he wanted his team's overall inclination to be not to double Lebron - i.e. don't gamble with it - only when it won't hurt the team

Lebron also wasn't doubled vs the Spurs or Warriors... This is common knowledge - this (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-22-2019/6e5aBZ.gif) popped up with a simple google search -

Since lebron doesn't get doubled and has a ball-dominant skillset, his teams lack premium ball movement thay can effectively compete on the championship level..

Btw, you keep saying that if Lebron got doubled, he would effectively pass and destroy it - but he doesn't get doubled, and therefore can be defeated like SVG and others have done.. If he could beat you with scoring, then SVG's strategy wouldn't work - but apparently he's not beating you with scoring and never has - does he have any series victories where he averages 35+.... :biggums:

Lebron WAS double teamed though, that is historical record.

It was SVG's opinion that they "didn't double", which could mean they didn't double AS MUCH as they could other superstars who couldn't pass like Lebron.

But Lebron was absolutely doubled teams often in the 09 Magic series.

Also, SVG thinks Lebron is better than MJ, hence harder to stop from having impact. MJ saw single coverage in his career plenty of times as well due to defensive rules.

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

Lebron WAS double teamed though, that is historical record.

It was SVG's opinion that they "didn't double", which could mean they didn't double AS MUCH as they could other superstars who couldn't pass like Lebron.

But Lebron was absolutely doubled teams often in the 09 Magic series.

Also, SVG thinks Lebron is better than MJ, hence harder to stop from having impact. MJ saw single coverage in his career plenty of times as well due to defensive rules.
Lebron didn't get doubled in the 09' ECF, as SVG said numerous times over the years

he simply can't beat you with scoring, so why double?? that was SVG's reasoning and the OP's stats play that out (no real wins while scoring 35+)

The few times he manages to score a lot, it's the kind of offense that loses - it lacks the all-time ball movement and effective championship offense like MJ's high scoring series have

Ultimately, the primary strategy used against lebron (straight up defense) is simpler than the strategy needed against mj (doubles-teams and also off-ball defense, i.e. shading/doubling on screens, pindowns, etc)

Finally, double teams allow a team to swing the ball and scramble the defense - since double teams spur ball movement, the lebron's inability garner double teams is a primary reason his teams have non-championship ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player)..

[StrongLurk]

Lebron didn't get doubled in the 09' ECF, as SVG said numerous times over the years

he simply can't beat you with scoring, so why double?? that was SVG's reasoning and the OP's stats play that out (no real wins while scoring 35+)

The few times he manages to score a lot, it's the kind of offense that loses - it lacks the all-time ball movement and effective championship offense like MJ's high scoring series have

Ultimately, the primary strategy used against lebron (straight up defense) is simpler than the strategy needed against mj (doubles-teams and also off-ball defense, i.e. shading/doubling on screens, pindowns, etc)

Finally, double teams allow a team to swing the ball and scramble the defense - since double teams spur ball movement, the lebron's inability garner double teams is a primary reason his teams have non-championship ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player)..

Lebron WAS double teamed though, that is historical record.

It was SVG's opinion that they "didn't double", which could mean they didn't double AS MUCH as they could other superstars who couldn't pass like Lebron. That's a strength of Lebron's in that he can beat you multiple different ways.

Lebron was absolutely doubled teams often in the 09 Magic series. In fact, he has been doubled many times in his whole career just as all superstars are.

Also, SVG thinks Lebron is better than MJ, hence harder to stop from having impact.

[RRR3]

I was watching LeBron’s game 1 highlights just now from that series. A coupe of times they tried sending a double but LeBron moved too quickly for it. Food for thought

[Mr Feeny]

[QUOTE=RRR3]MJ would not have won that series lmao.

Name a single time he won a series with a second option on Mo Williams

[sdot_thadon]

Who on earth was Dwight' second option? Yet he beat lebron' Cavs as the lower seed.
Jordan would have comfortably won the 2009 series because I believe that any top 5 ATG would have won it.
Rashard was an allstar that season and made it outright and not as an injuy replacement......

[3ball]

Who on earth was Dwight' second option? Yet he beat lebron' Cavs as the lower seed.
Jordan would have comfortably won the 2009 series because I believe that any top 5 ATG would have won it.


09' Mo Will RS:. 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS:.. 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF:. 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 10.8 gmsc.. lost to #4 SRS team
89' Pippen ECF:.. 10/7/3.. 45.3 ts.... 92 ORtg.... 8.5 gmsc.. beat #1 SRS team
.

[Ainosterhaspie]

LOL. And Mo was just as good a defender?

[3ball]

LOL. And Mo was just as good a defender?
Doesn't matter - the Cavs were a great defensive team, better than the 89' Bulls

All those Cavs teams were great defensive teams (Mike Brown's call card) - that's how they took the 08' Celts 7 games despite horrific efficiency from lebron (26 on 35%)

Also, baby Pip wasn't a great defender in 89' - as you can see, he wasn't shit in 89'

[Ainosterhaspie]

In 2009

Magic ORtg against Lakers: 100.5.
Laker ORtg against Magic:110.8.
Magic ORtg against Cavaliers: 113.3.
Cavaliers ORtg against Magic: 110.6.

3Ball conclusion: the problem is the Cavaliers offense isn't good enough because LeBron doesn't demand double teams score as much as Kobe. Yep that extra 0.2 ORtg sure changed the series. It couldn't possibly be that the Lakers far superior defense was the key difference.

Also Kobe scored 32 ppg and LeBron scored 38 ppg, but again the Cavaliers lost because SVG knew he couldn't score as much as Kobe, which he did anyway. Can't make this stuff up. 3Balls arguments make zero sense and don't match what hepoened at all, but keep fighting the good fight sir.

[Mr Feeny]

In 2009

Magic ORtg against Lakers: 100.5.
Laker ORtg against Magic:110.8.
Magic ORtg against Cavaliers: 113.3.
Cavaliers ORtg against Magic: 110.6.

3Ball conclusion: the problem is the Cavaliers offense isn't good enough because LeBron doesn't demand double teams score as much as Kobe. Yep that extra 0.2 ORtg sure changed the series. It couldn't possibly be that the Lakers far superior defense was the key difference.

Also Kobe scored 32 ppg and LeBron scored 38 ppg, but again the Cavaliers lost because SVG knew he couldn't score as much as Kobe, which he did anyway. Can't make this stuff up. 3Balls arguments make zero sense and don't match what hepoened at all, but keep fighting the good fight sir.

He's only repeating what the coach from the 2009 Magic said. They were able to employ that strategy and dare him to beat them because unlike Kobe, Lebron wasnt good enough of a scorer to punish you.

[3ball]

In 2009

Magic ORtg against Lakers: 100.5.
Laker ORtg against Magic:110.8.
Magic ORtg against Cavaliers: 113.3.
Cavaliers ORtg against Magic: 110.6.

3Ball conclusion: the problem is the Cavaliers offense isn't good enough because LeBron doesn't demand double teams score as much as Kobe. Yep that extra 0.2 ORtg sure changed the series. It couldn't possibly be that the Lakers far superior defense was the key difference.

Also Kobe scored 32 ppg and LeBron scored 38 ppg, but again the Cavaliers lost because SVG knew he couldn't score as much as Kobe, which he did anyway. Can't make this stuff up. 3Balls arguments make zero sense and don't match what hepoened at all, but keep fighting the good fight sir.
Kobe was getting doubled tho

A team has greater overall production when the star is getting doubled and everyone else is getting off, versus the star scoring a few points more against straight-up D, while teammates get locked down

[Mr Feeny]

09' Mo Will RS:. 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS:.. 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF:. 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 10.8 gmsc.. lost to #4 SRS team
89' Pippen ECF:.. 10/7/3.. 45.3 ts.... 92 ORtg.... 8.5 gmsc.. beat #1 SRS team
.

I'm not arguing. I agree. Moe William's in 2009 was better than 1989 Pippen or Grant or anyone Jordan had. Jordan also won more games against those Pistons than anyone else did in those playoffs and the following playoffs, while the Cavaliers choked with the top seed.

Not sure why you're quoting me.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Kobe was getting doubled tho

A team has greater overall production when the star is getting doubled and everyone else is getting off, versus the star scoring a few points more against straight-up D, while teammates get locked down
And the Lakers had basically the exact same ORtg as the Cavs. Doubling or not doubling wasn't the key difference in the two series. It's the net -13 on the Magic's ORtg that was the significant difference in the two series. The Magic scored at will against the Cavs and got shut down by the Lakers.

You seem to think that forcing doubles magically produces better offense, but it didn't in that series. Two different tactics same result, 110.7 ORtg +/- 0.1.

I suppose this is where you tell me the Cavaliers had a great defense even though what happened in the regular season has zero relevance to this particular matchup where the Cavs front court was hopelessly over matched.

[Ainosterhaspie]

He's only repeating what the coach from the 2009 Magic said. They were able to employ that strategy and dare him to beat them because unlike Kobe, Lebron wasnt good enough of a scorer to punish you.
Maybe he should try thinking critically and realize that (A) LeBron has a much higher scoring average and efficiency compared to Kobe in bith the playoffs and regular season, and (B) the key difference in the series was the Lakers and Cavs defense, not their offense. If the Cavs were capable of playing the same level of defense against the Magic, they would have crushed them and the don't double LeBron strategy would be a complete failure. But for some reason (*cough agenda cough*) the glaring, obvious, key factor is being completely ignored.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Lebron WAS double teamed though, that is historical record.

It was SVG's opinion that they "didn't double", which could mean they didn't double AS MUCH as they could other superstars who couldn't pass like Lebron. That's a strength of Lebron's in that he can beat you multiple different ways.

Lebron was absolutely doubled teams often in the 09 Magic series. In fact, he has been doubled many times in his whole career just as all superstars are.

Also, SVG thinks Lebron is better than MJ, hence harder to stop from having impact.
The difference in defensive rules also makes this a really odd comparison. Illegal defense in the Jordan era meant you had to hard double or you couldn't double at all. In LeBron's era teams can use soft doubles. So the second player harasses and positions to give help without completely abandoning his man. So it's not exactly a double, but it's not exactly not a double either. And there is alway help waiting if LeBron beats his man. He pulls defenders away from his teammates albeit in a different manner than Jordan due to rules differences as well as style differences.

[RRR3]

Who on earth was Dwight' second option? Yet he beat lebron' Cavs as the lower seed.
Jordan would have comfortably won the 2009 series because I believe that any top 5 ATG would have won it.
Except you always say LeBron is top 3.

[Hey Yo]

Doesn't matter - the Cavs were a great defensive team, better than the 89' Bulls

All those Cavs teams were great defensive teams (Mike Brown's call card) - that's how they took the 08' Celts 7 games despite horrific efficiency from lebron (26 on 35%)

Also, baby Pip wasn't a great defender in 89' - as you can see, he wasn't shit in 89'
Pistons in the 89 ECF shot 42% and 24% from 3

Magic in the 09 ECSF shot 48% and 41% from 3.


next

[Mr Feeny]

Except you always say LeBron is top 3.

Google "non-sequiter"

[sportjames23]

Ordan highest playoff series - swept.


Lebron in the Finals = swept twice.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Pistons in the 89 ECF shot 42% and 24% from 3

Magic in the 09 ECSF shot 48% and 41% from 3.


next
Just to add to this:
Pistons ORtg regular season 110.8, against Bulls 107.9.
Magic ORtg regular season 109.2 , against Cavaliers 113.3.

Of course we all know that regular season performance is more meaningful than the actual performance in the series. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Just to add to this:
Pistons ORtg regular season 110.8, against Bulls 107.9.
Magic ORtg regular season 109.2 , against Cavaliers 113.3.

Of course we all know that regular season performance is more meaningful than the actual performance in the series. :oldlol:
When a player passes out of a double team, the defense must rotate and recover as the ball is swung around - double teams spur ball movement because that's how you beat them, and ball movement makes defenses work harder.

MJ was facing the Jordan Rules, aka double-teams - so when mj gave up the ball after being doubled, the Pistons were having to rotate hard on defense to recover, thus wearing them out and blunting their offensive attack somewhat - the Jordan Rules were tiring to execute (Pistons had to work harder against mj defensively), which took away from their offensive burst

Otoh, Lebron faces no doubles/straight-up defense because he isn't a pure shooter and is often not a threat for a high shot attempts (passive) - so the straight-up defenses he faces (no hard rotations necessary) are fresh and therefore have more capacity to get hot offensively

[Ainosterhaspie]

When a player passes out of a double team, the defense must rotate and recover as the ball is swung around - double teams spur ball movement because that's how you beat them, and ball movement makes defenses work harder.

MJ was facing the Jordan Rules, aka double-teams - so when mj gave up the ball after being doubled, the Pistons were having to rotate hard on defense to recover, thus wearing them out and blunting their offensive attack somewhat - the Jordan Rules were tiring to execute (Pistons had to work harder against mj defensively), which took away from their offensive burst

Otoh, Lebron faces no doubles/straight-up defense because he isn't a pure shooter and is often not a threat for a high shot attempts (passive) - so the straight-up defenses he faces (no hard rotations necessary) are fresh and therefore have more capacity to get hot offensively
The difference was defense you halfwit (and I'm being generous with that). Same offense for Lakers and Cavaliers, terrible defense by Cavaliers. That's the story, it's not that Kobe broke down the Magic better on offense, he didn't. His offense was the same. There's a massive gap between their defenses, there's almost no gap between their offenses.

[bigkingsfan]

Lebron in the Finals = swept twice.
He's your GOAT, not mine.