2011 is Just a Footnote

[Ainosterhaspie]

Look, there's no sugar coating it. LeBron had a horrible series against the Mavs in 2011. He had a huge hole in his game, that up to that point he failed to address. Prior to that series when it gave him problems he could justify it due to having an inadequate roster, but this time there was no justification. He couldn't point the finger anywhere else but himself.

So that summer he took stock of his game, busted his ass and worked to fill that hole. He came back a more compete player and showed on game 6 in Boston he was no longer the same guy.

MJ also had a hole in his game and he never won until he fixed it. He had to get stronger and more capable of withstanding the physical pressures he faced in the playoffs. So he busted his ass, bulked up and fixed that hole.

Players grow. They deserve criticism if they never fix problems, but if they fix the problem, it shouldn't be given outsized significance as a way to ignore that the player became a superior version of himself.

[sdot_thadon]

I agree, for some people it's the only thing they can hold on to in arguments they didn't quite think out. It was a bad look, but it also was necessary for his evolution into a goat candidate. If they win in 2011 he probably never works on his post game, never becomes the ruthless monster of 2012s ecf, or the desperate lay it all out on the line guy he was to finish the 2013 finals. All those experiences had to build to the things he did back in Cleveland as well, there is no 2016 Lebron without 2011 in my mind. I see 2011 as the catalyst to his all time status, not a detriment.

['Toine=MVP]

It is more than a footnote, but if someone is trying to make a case that he is not top 10 of all time, I think they better bring a TON more than that.

The biggest problem for LeBron is not all the negatives (such as the choke jobs, creating a terrible FA culture, etc), but rather the fact that he has just not lived up to the billing. He has not done enough on the positive side to get people to view him the way the other greats have been viewed. And ALL the greats end up having their star diminish over time. LeBron just hasn't reached the heights of the stars of the past. And fans and serious followers of the sport are DYING to annoint a new great even a new GOAT. LeBron hasn't even achieved the first fully.

['Toine=MVP]

To be clear, I think he's a clear top 10 all time player. Just not really anywhere near consideration for GOAT and not really a 2nd tier GOAT either.

[SouBeachTalents]

It obviously doesn't define his career, but it's as bad of a performance & loss that a player of his stature could have. I know people blow other players embarrassing losses out of proportion, but 2011 truly was THAT bad

[Ainosterhaspie]

I agree, for some people it's the only thing they can hold on to in arguments they didn't quite think out. It was a bad look, but it also was necessary for his evolution into a goat candidate. If they win in 2011 he probably never works on his post game, never becomes the ruthless monster of 2012s ecf, or the desperate lay it all out on the line guy he was to finish the 2013 finals. All those experiences had to build to the things he did back in Cleveland as well, there is no 2016 Lebron without 2011 in my mind. I see 2011 as the catalyst to his all time status, not a detriment.
That's the paradox of 2011. He may, perhaps likely, never would have become as great a player as he became without it. Had he played just a little bit harder, they could have won. He may not feel pressured to add to his game and ultimately never have been as good as he became. It's weird to treat the learning experience as more important than the resulting growth and improvement.

[SouBeachTalents]

It is more than a footnote, but if someone is trying to make a case that he is not top 10 of all time, I think they better bring a TON more than that.

The biggest problem for LeBron is not all the negatives (such as the choke jobs, creating a terrible FA culture, etc), but rather the fact that he has just not lived up to the billing. He has not done enough on the positive side to get people to view him the way the other greats have been viewed. And ALL the greats end up having their star diminish over time. LeBron just hasn't reached the heights of the stars of the past. And fans and serious followers of the sport are DYING to annoint a new great even a new GOAT. LeBron hasn't even achieved the first fully.
https://media.tenor.com/images/11cd05220ac585b727307208a166bace/tenor.gif

[egokiller]

Look, there's no sugar coating it. LeBron had a horrible series against the Mavs in 2011. He had a huge hole in his game, that up to that point he failed to address. Prior to that series when it gave him problems he could justify it due to having an inadequate roster, but this time there was no justification. He couldn't point the finger anywhere else but himself.

So that summer he took stock of his game, busted his ass and worked to fill that hole. He came back a more compete player and showed on game 6 in Boston he was no longer the same guy.

MJ also had a hole in his game and he never won until he fixed it. He had to get stronger and more capable of withstanding the physical pressures he faced in the playoffs. So he busted his ass, bulked up and fixed that hole.

Players grow. They deserve criticism if they never fix problems, but if they fix the problem, it shouldn't be given outsized significance as a way to ignore that the player became a superior version of himself.

No, MJ

[3ball]

It's just one championship loss of many, true

But it shows what MJ could potentially do to him.. We don't need to imagine or guess a worst-case scenario for Lebron losing to MJ.. We have a pretty horrific defeat and performance as a best case (for the worst-case)

Otoh, we have to imagine MJ averaging 17.8 while scoring zero points in the clutch (last 5 within 5) for the entire series

And regarding MJ getting bigger - he credits weightlifting for helping him get thru the beatings.. But he's loyal to Pippen, so he won't mention that Pippen couldn't carry a sufficient load intil 1991 either, which coincided with the weightlifting - it was both factors that contributed to victory and made for such a dominant run

Regarding lebron's weaknesses - he only "fixed" the choking by not having another historic choke like that, although he almost did in 13'.. otherwise, he's still a spotty shooter and FT shooter, doesn't dominate the post, doesn't command a double-team, makes bad shoot or pass decisions on the last shot, lacks footwork/fakes/repertoire to gets stats while the ball moves (off-ball), etc, etc, etc (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=471636)

[sdot_thadon]

That's the paradox of 2011. He may, perhaps likely, never would have become as great a player as he became without it. Had he played just a little bit harder, they could have won. He may not feel pressured to add to his game and ultimately never have been as good as he became. It's weird to treat the learning experience as more important than the resulting growth and improvement.
Right, I thinking if he won in 2011 it would have come too easily and there's a good chance he may not have won in Miami a 2nd time with the adversity of 2012 and beyond. Worst case scenario is he leaves Miami with one Kd warriors style ring no one really respects, rather than the 2 hard fought ones he did earn in Miami. He was forged in the fire of the 2011 and 2012 runs and i think he's better for it.

[90sgoat]

No, it was not just a footnote.

It exposed Lebron in multiple ways:

It exposed that Lebron was fundamentally weak. Bricking all kinds of shots like he was some 7 foot stiff, not a skilled sf.

It exposed that Lebron was mentally weak and someone who would rather protect his ego than die by the sword.

It exposed that Lebron can only deliver at a high level when teams are constructed exactly to his liking (Lebron ball).

He got better at some stuff, true. The last couple years he has had a passable jumper. He still can't play anything but Lebron ball.

[Ainosterhaspie]

It's just one championship loss of many, true

But it shows what MJ could potentially do to him.. We don't need to imagine or guess a worst-case scenario for Lebron losing to MJ.. We have a pretty horrific defeat and performance as a best case (for the worst-case)

Otoh, we have to imagine MJ averaging 17.8 while scoring zero points in the clutch (last 5 within 5) for the entire series

And regarding MJ getting bigger - he credits weightlifting for helping him get thru the beatings.. But he's loyal to Pippen, so he won't mention that Pippen couldn't carry a sufficient load intil 1991 either, which coincided with the weightlifting - it was both factors that contributed to victory and made for such a dominant run

Regarding lebron's weaknesses - he only "fixed" the choking by not having another historic choke like that, although he almost did in 13'.. otherwise, he's still a spotty shooter and FT shooter, doesn't dominate the post, doesn't command a double-team, makes bad shoot or pass decisions on the last shot, lacks footwork/fakes/repertoire to gets stats while the ball moves (off-ball), etc, etc, etc (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=471636)

He was probably good enough to win sooner in the right circumstance, but the extra weight training made his game more resilient and gave him extra tools he could use where necessary. It made him more dominant than he otherwise would have been. It's the same with LeBron in 2011 and before. He was good enough to win in the right situation, but was never going to reach the same level of play he actually achieved unless he worked on the areas of his game 2011 forced him to reckon with.

The Pistons were MJs refining furnace and the Mavs were that for LeBron. Who they became after the refining process is much more meaningful than who they were before it.

[Phoenix]

Look, there's no sugar coating it. LeBron had a horrible series against the Mavs in 2011. He had a huge hole in his game, that up to that point he failed to address. Prior to that series when it gave him problems he could justify it due to having an inadequate roster, but this time there was no justification. He couldn't point the finger anywhere else but himself.

So that summer he took stock of his game, busted his ass and worked to fill that hole. He came back a more compete player and showed on game 6 in Boston he was no longer the same guy.

MJ also had a hole in his game and he never won until he fixed it. He had to get stronger and more capable of withstanding the physical pressures he faced in the playoffs. So he busted his ass, bulked up and fixed that hole.

Players grow. They deserve criticism if they never fix problems, but if they fix the problem, it shouldn't be given outsized significance as a way to ignore that the player became a superior version of himself.

There's a difference here. Needing to get stronger to combat the Pistons wasn't a skill deficiency, it was a requirement of an era that allowed the Pistons to take the rules of physical defense to its apex. They basically had to beat the shit out of MJ to contain him because no one defender was going to stop him including the likes of Dumars and Rodman. So they honed in him specifically, since the Bulls had no counter threat once they contained him until Pippen's emergence. The Knicks tried the same thing 5 years later but it was too late by then. MJ was complete in ability, physical and mental skills, with a team around him that could compete at the elite level.

Lebron actually had a glaring hole skillwise, namely a reliable post game, a jumpshot that came and went with his confidence, and a seeming lack of focus when the ball wasn't in his hands( playing off the ball). Those are all things he specifically needed to work on to get to the guy we saw in 2013.

[PickernRoller]

Damn me and 3-ball got OP to make this thread. :lol :lol

It's OK bro... no need to sweat it.

Still will never explain the "enigma" as to why Bran thought, in his mind, that he needed 2 other all-star caliber players (one of them being a superstar) to succeed and win rings when the only thing every other superstar ever asked was a great set of role players, or a single all-star.

Why did he feel the need to stack the deck to the brim? What was going through his brain?

I mean he did so twice in his career, Wade/Bosh, Kyrie/Love, and tried an AD/Kawhi combo, and is settling for an AD/Kuzma combo at the tail end of his career.

Why does a man with "so much talent" need so much help to succeed? Why?

[3ball]

He was probably good enough to win sooner in the right circumstance,


Oh for sure - 90' MJ wins if Pippen doesn't have that migraine, so he'd obviously win with 91' Pip too





but was never going to reach the same level of play he actually achieved unless he worked on the areas of his game 2011 forced him to reckon with.


Only MJ fixed his problems and basically never lost after that..

Lebron still has shit tons of flaws, which is why he continues to lose, including sweeps, missed playoffs, and record defeat






The Pistons were MJs refining furnace and the Mavs were that for LeBron.


Lebron vs 11' Mavericks. - 18 ppg.. favorite.... all-time choke
Jordan vs 88-90' Pistons - 30 ppg.. underdog


^^^^ they aren't the same.. nice try tho

MJ's losses to the more talented Pistons compare to lebron's losses in 15' and 18', when they were underdogs like MJ's Bulls, and didn't choke... Otoh, the 11 Finals doesn't compare because lebron was a favorite and choked hard






but the extra weight training made his game more resilient and gave him extra tools he could use where necessary. It made him more dominant than he otherwise would have been. It's the same with LeBron in 2011 and before. He was good enough to win in the right situation


Lebron can only win with a super-team because his game lacks premium teamwork

[PickernRoller]

Lebron can only win with a super-team because his game lacks premium teamwork

It lacks premium teamwork because Bran ball is an inherent flaw of Lebron as a player himself. Poor volume jump shooter, mental midget, poor off-the-ball game, plays as a PG instead of a SF - dominates the ball. The list goes on - and he has improved on some of these things as the years have passed but so has his athleticism declined as well... balancing that somewhat. The motherfvcker is so lucky that the league has pretty much scrapped defense, thus allowing him to be a successful scorer late in his career with the looks at the rim that he's efficient and good at. What the league can't do for him, is make him play defense, so again, Bran himself balances himself out limiting the potential success. Running joke.

[3ball]

Damn me and 3-ball got OP to make this thread. :lol :lol

It's OK bro... no need to sweat it.
Got em'.. :roll:

:cheers:

[And1AllDay]

I agree, for some people it's the only thing they can hold on to in arguments they didn't quite think out. It was a bad look, but it also was necessary for his evolution into a goat candidate. If they win in 2011 he probably never works on his post game, never becomes the ruthless monster of 2012s ecf, or the desperate lay it all out on the line guy he was to finish the 2013 finals. All those experiences had to build to the things he did back in Cleveland as well, there is no 2016 Lebron without 2011 in my mind. I see 2011 as the catalyst to his all time status, not a detriment.


+1 w/o a doubt

[Indian guy]

Well, LeBron didn't necessarily lose the 2011 Finals because of some shortcoming in skill/ability. He basically wasn't trying in that series. Now, you could say he was mentally tougher the following season and that's what his improvement was. But I wouldn't consider it some major difference. He still had plenty of shaky moments in 2012. Difference this time being come Finals he realized Gee, it's the NBA finals, maybe I should put forth some effort this time. Also, 2011 Mavs >> 2012 Thunder.

LeBron's a way better player from the following season onward. If I want to win a playoff series, I'm taking 2013-2018 LeBron over 2012 any day.

[tpols]

Well, LeBron didn't necessarily lose the 2011 Finals because of some shortcoming in skill/ability. He basically wasn't trying in that series. Now, you could say he was mentally tougher the following season and that's what his improvement was. But I wouldn't consider it some major difference. He still had plenty of shaky moments in 2012. Difference this time being come Finals he realized Gee, it's the NBA finals, maybe I should put forth some effort this time. Also, 2011 Mavs >> 2012 Thunder.

LeBron's a way better player from the following season onward. If I want to win a playoff series, I'm taking 2013-2018 LeBron over 2012 any day.


Through 6 games, 2013 Lebron against the spurs had very similar stats to 2011 Lebron against the mavs...

Look it up. He was averaging like 22 ppg on 40% shooting.

Ray saved his career with one shot.

[PickernRoller]

Through 6 games, 2013 Lebron against the spurs had very similar stats to 2011 Lebron against the mavs...

Look it up. He was averaging like 22 ppg on 40% shooting.

Ray saved his career with one shot.

His Tards will quote game 7, when the man was shooting and at this time FINALLY making jumpers with a foot of space.

Can you imagine Kobe or Jordan getting that treatment in a 7 game series.

First of all it would have never gone to 7, it would have ended in a sweep or 5, with an easy ring for Kobe/Jordan.

Back to reality, more than likely, Pop would have doubled teamed their @sses and lived with the result, like in 08. Cause not doing so is an early exit. Pick your poison either way.

I do like Indian Guy's and the new narrative about 2011 making Bran a new man... :roll: :roll: +1 for creativity. Certainly didn't cut his thirst for shortcutting and stacking the deck.

[AlternativeAcc.]

2011 doesn't make or break Wade's career

He's been scrutinized about 2011 for a decade now, but that's not why he's ranked below Pau and Pippen

He's ranked below them because of a variety of reasons, not just one sole finals where he categorically ****ed over his team

[PickernRoller]

2011 doesn't make or break Wade's career

He's been scrutinized about 2011 for a decade now, but that's not why he's ranked below Pau and Pippen

He's ranked below them because of a variety of reasons, not just one sole finals where he categorically ****ed over his team

The fvck is this post wheels? :roll: :roll:

[Ainosterhaspie]

MJ getting stronger didn't just help him cope with other teams being physical with him, it also gave him additional weaponry to use against them. It's a key piece of what made him dominant. Just because he was good enough to win it all in 90 and before that really doesn't mean he was good enough at that point to dominate like he eventually did.

Again, the process of being forced to strengthen one's game is a good thing; it produces better players. It's weird to fixate on who a player was before he recognized flaws in his game and worked successfully to fix them.

[StrongLurk]

I disagree that 2011 is a footnote and I'm a Lebron fan.

That was a huge meltdown for the best player in the world. You saw how Lebron SHOULD have played in the finals 2012-2018...as a complete all-around dominant monster.

2011 was actually a down year for Lebron. He was better in 09 and 10.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I disagree that 2011 is a footnote and I'm a Lebron fan.

That was a huge meltdown for the best player in the world. You saw how Lebron SHOULD have played in the finals 2012-2018...as a complete all-around dominant monster.

2011 was actually a down year for Lebron. He was better in 09 and 10.
I'm using a bit of hyberbole to drive in the key point. LeBron was 26 in 2011. This is prior to physical peak (typically 27-28) and skill peak (typically 32-33). He responded by working on his post game and assertiveness and looked like a different more complete player from that point forward.

His career can be divided into his growth period from when he entered to 2011 and his refined game period which began after 2011, and which may never have reached the level it did without 2011. Giving 2011 outsized emphasis as the key moment that limits his career evaluation is a problem. In that sense, how his whole career should be evaluated it is little more than a footnote. It's the dividing line between growing player and mature player,little more.

[StrongLurk]

I'm using a bit of hyberbole to drive in the key point. LeBron was 26 in 2011. This is prior to physical peak (typically 27-28) and skill peak (typically 32-33). He responded by working on his post game and assertiveness and looked like a different more complete player from that point forward.

His career can be divided into his growth period from when he entered to 2011 and his refined game period which began after 2011, and which may never have reached the level it did without 2011. Giving 2011 outsized emphasis as the key moment that limits his career evaluation is a problem. In that sense, how his whole career should be evaluated it is little more than a footnote. It's the dividing line between growing player and mature player,little more.

We should all accept that Lebron had a MENTAL breakdown in the 2011 finals. He was the best player in the world leading up to the finals. But the noise got to him, he was the most hated basketball player maybe ever that year because of how good/polarizing he was between fan bases. It wasn't like KD going to the Warriors. People hated that...but we won't ever see something like the hate Lebron went through in 2011 and it got to him in the finals.

It's one thing if Lebron loses while playing great...that happens to every great player. It's another thing to lose and play BAD as a superstar.

Lebron in 2012 was a straight up monster on a MISSION. It wasn't about how much "better" at basketball he was...he straight up stomped people and his will NEVER wavered in 2012 (just like in the 2009 playoffs).

I dont wanna here "but his POST PLAY GOT BETTER". The dude told the world in 2012 that he WAS NOT GONNA LOSE.

[Phoenix]

Well, LeBron didn't necessarily lose the 2011 Finals because of some shortcoming in skill/ability. He basically wasn't trying in that series. Now, you could say he was mentally tougher the following season and that's what his improvement was. But I wouldn't consider it some major difference. He still had plenty of shaky moments in 2012. Difference this time being come Finals he realized Gee, it's the NBA finals, maybe I should put forth some effort this time. Also, 2011 Mavs >> 2012 Thunder.

LeBron's a way better player from the following season onward. If I want to win a playoff series, I'm taking 2013-2018 LeBron over 2012 any day.

Why would an 8 year veteran, with prior finals experience, at that point not realize the magnitude of the situation he was in? I mean, Lebron was pretty great overall through the 2011 playoffs and even over the first 3 games of the finals he was solid, if unspectacular. What flipped the switch?

[Indian guy]

Why would an 8 year veteran, without prior finals experience, at that point not realize the magnitude of the situation he was in? I mean, Lebron was pretty great overall through the 2011 playoffs and even over the first 3 games of the finals he was solid, if spectacular. What flipped the switch?

Who knows. It was just a really bizarre series by him. Dallas did a few things defensively to make him really uncomfortable, but it still shouldn't have led to the level of passiveness we saw. He was basically approaching the game like a role player out there. Maybe the moment did indeed became too big for him? But like you said, 8 year veteran who had played under all the pressure in the world from Day 1. Doesn't make much sense.

[guy]

Look, there's no sugar coating it. LeBron had a horrible series against the Mavs in 2011. He had a huge hole in his game, that up to that point he failed to address. Prior to that series when it gave him problems he could justify it due to having an inadequate roster, but this time there was no justification. He couldn't point the finger anywhere else but himself.

So that summer he took stock of his game, busted his ass and worked to fill that hole. He came back a more compete player and showed on game 6 in Boston he was no longer the same guy.

MJ also had a hole in his game and he never won until he fixed it. He had to get stronger and more capable of withstanding the physical pressures he faced in the playoffs. So he busted his ass, bulked up and fixed that hole.

Players grow. They deserve criticism if they never fix problems, but if they fix the problem, it shouldn't be given outsized significance as a way to ignore that the player became a superior version of himself.

Not sure I get the point here. Every loss a player has hurts their legacy for the simple fact that they aren

[superduper]

Imagine thinking Wade is ranked below Pau holy **** :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[3ball]

I'm using a bit of hyberbole to drive in the key point. LeBron was 26 in 2011. This is prior to physical peak (typically 27-28) and skill peak (typically 32-33). He responded by working on his post game and assertiveness and looked like a different more complete player from that point forward.

His career can be divided into his growth period from when he entered to 2011 and his refined game period which began after 2011, and which may never have reached the level it did without 2011. Giving 2011 outsized emphasis as the key moment that limits his career evaluation is a problem. In that sense, how his whole career should be evaluated it is little more than a footnote. It's the dividing line between growing player and mature player,little more.
You can claim that lebron fixed his flaws from 2012-2018, but the record tells a different story - he still mostly lost during that time (7 yrs), whereas MJ was basically undefeated after "fixing his flaws" in 91'.. So only MJ fixed his flaws, while lebron's game still has well-publicized flaws, so he continues to have record defeats, sweeps, and missed playoffs.

But your entire premise and mindset on this was exposed in post #15.. Lebron and MJ's pre-championship struggles aren't comparable because lebron lost with big favorites (should get criticized), while MJ only lost as an underdog (shouldn't be criticized, similar to lebron losing in 07' and 18' as underdog)

[sdot_thadon]

after "fixing his fixing his flaws" in 91'.. So only MJ fixed his flaws
more like his flaws (comp) "fixed" themselves don't ya think......

[Ainosterhaspie]

[QUOTE=guy]Not sure I get the point here. Every loss a player has hurts their legacy for the simple fact that they aren

[guy]

I'm addressing the mindset that basically no matter what he did after 2011, it doesn't matter because 2011 happened. Growth is minimized and the reckoning which produced the growth is given excessive focus. He made a jump forward as a player following that series. That is far more relevant in evaluating his career.

I guess, but I don

[3ball]

I'm addressing the mindset that basically no matter what he did after 2011, it doesn't matter because 2011 happened. Growth is minimized and the reckoning which produced the growth is given excessive focus. He made a jump forward as a player following that series. That is far more relevant in evaluating his career.
MJ after 1990:



- 6 rings in 7 years that he played



Lebron after 2011:



- 4 losses in 7 years including 2 record defeats by 2 different opponents



So one guy fixed his flaws better than the other, or wasn't as flawed to begin with...

And pre-championship (pre-"flaw-fixing"), only lebron lost a bunch as the favorite

[Phoenix]

I'm addressing the mindset that basically no matter what he did after 2011, it doesn't matter because 2011 happened. Growth is minimized and the reckoning which produced the growth is given excessive focus. He made a jump forward as a player following that series. That is far more relevant in evaluating his career.

I'm actually wondering what kind of damage Lebron could have REALLY caused if this guy....

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BasicAlienatedAyeaye-size_restricted.gif

was around even 2-3 years sooner. 2011 happened and above was the net result. If it was more innate within him sooner and not something he needed to gain through a humiliating defeat this whole GOAT conversation would be even more interesting. He had the tools, but something was missing and moments of inexplicable disengagement from the moment crept up at the weirdest times.

[3ball]

I'm actually wondering what kind of damage Lebron could have REALLY caused if this guy....

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BasicAlienatedAyeaye-size_restricted.gif

was around even 2-3 years sooner. 2011 happened and above was the net result. If it was more innate within him sooner and not something he needed to gain through a humiliating defeat this whole GOAT conversation would be even more interesting. He had the tools, but something was missing and moments of inexplicable disengagement from the moment crept up at the weirdest times.
You're asking what would've happened if he had prime Wade and Bosh for 2-3 more years than he did?

Obviously, he would've won more, but he should've gone 4/4 even with lesser versions of his sidekicks like MJ did in the 2nd three-peat

Ultimately, why didn't he have the best teams of his era after getting 2 star teammates?.. Instead, he still mostly lost, including record defeats in 14'

[Mr Feeny]

No, it was not just a footnote.

It exposed Lebron in multiple ways:

It exposed that Lebron was fundamentally weak. Bricking all kinds of shots like he was some 7 foot stiff, not a skilled sf.

It exposed that Lebron was mentally weak and someone who would rather protect his ego than die by the sword.

It exposed that Lebron can only deliver at a high level when teams are constructed exactly to his liking (Lebron ball).

He got better at some stuff, true. The last couple years he has had a passable jumper. He still can't play anything but Lebron ball.

Yeah I'm not sure what OP is on. This is MUCH more than a footnote. It's one of the greatest collapses in sports history. He single handedly lost what should have been a gimmie title for his team. He has apologized for his performance since and has grown up but it doesnt mean that this will ever be forgotten.

There is a reason this is mentioned whenever his all time ranking comes into question. When you're competing for title of the greatest ever, stuff like this isnt just a black mark. It kills your argument.

[Mr Feeny]

more like his flaws (comp) "fixed" themselves don't ya think......

In terms of not being able to beat the GOAT? Absolutely.
That differs from Lebron"s situation because the latter has lost a lot more frequently than the former since "fixing his flaws".

[sdot_thadon]

In terms of not being able to beat the GOAT? Absolutely.
That differs from Lebron"s situation because the latter has lost a lot more frequently than the former since "fixing his flaws".
I think you misunderstood. His flaw was his competition was better than his own teams, once that probelm "fixed" itself something amazing happened.....

[3ball]

more like his flaws (comp) "fixed" themselves don't ya think......
Its pretty dumb to say that MJ's opponents had less talent than lebron's because MJ played in a 2-star versus 2-star format, while lebron played in a 3-star vs 3 star format

Give the Jazz or Bulls a 3rd star and they would compare talent-wise to the warriors or lebron's teams

The comp argument is also flawed because it ignores lebron's own team-hopping that gave him stacked teams and a talent advantage.. Miami had the most talent in the league from 11-14', and the Cavs/warriors thru 16'.. he had enough talent, but simply failed to have the best teama of his era

[90sgoat]

This is really a case of rewatching 2011.

That series is so massive in importance.

Watch Dirk vs Lebron.

Watch how Dirk wills himself, again and again and again, takes on the responsbility.

Compare to Lebron shirking it, hiding from it, failing.

It needs to be seen, rewatched. It's a big deal.

[Phoenix]

Dirk in his own way had his own '2011' back in 07 when as the reigning MVP he was embarrassed by the underdog Warriors. His title run considering the names he left in his wake is one of the more impressive runs in recent history. I have to think that 2007 'toughened' him as well leading to the player he was by 2011. With the expectations that the Heatles would run the table on championships from the moment they synced up, I actually thought Dirk was trending to be ringless and end up in that Barkley/Malone/Ewing conversation of greats that just never quite got it done.

[Manny98]

Everyone forgets that MJ had his 2011 chokejob in 89 against the Pistons

Up 2-1 and choked in 3 consecutive games

It happens to everyone even the so called GOAT

[3ball]

Everyone forgets that MJ had his 2011 chokejob in 89 against the Pistons

Up 2-1 and choked in 3 consecutive games

It happens to everyone even the so called GOAT
Lebron vs 11' Mavericks. - 18 ppg.. favorite.... all-time choke
Jordan vs 88-90' Pistons - 30 ppg.. underdog


^^^^ they aren't the same.. nice try tho

MJ's losses to the more talented Pistons compare to lebron's losses in 15' and 18', when they were underdogs like MJ's Bulls, and didn't choke...

Otoh, the 11 Finals doesn't compare because lebron was a favorite and choked hard

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron vs 11' Mavericks. - 18 ppg.. favorite.... all-time choke
Jordan vs 88-90' Pistons - 30 ppg.. underdog


^^^^ they aren't the same.. nice try tho

MJ's losses to the more talented Pistons compare to lebron's losses in 15' and 18', when they were underdogs like MJ's Bulls, and didn't choke...

Otoh, the 11 Finals doesn't compare because lebron was a favorite and choked hard
semantics.

Choking is choking, even when it's the goat. If he gagged one up that series, it just is what it is. I'm still feeling like with how often we're quick to bring up 2011, nobody really knows wtf happened that series. There's a ton of moving parts to consider, I've got my theories but I'd like them to be more informed. Maybe it's time to revisit the year 2011....

[Phoenix]

semantics.

Choking is choking, even when it's the goat. If he gagged one up that series, it just is what it is. I'm still feeling like with how often we're quick to bring up 2011, nobody really knows wtf happened that series. There's a ton of moving parts to consider, I've got my theories but I'd like them to be more informed. Maybe it's time to revisit the year 2011....

3/4 of the shit posted around here is uninformed, so I don't think you're out of bounds dropping your own take. What's your theory?

[And1AllDay]

Lebron vs 11' Mavericks. - 18 ppg.. favorite.... all-time choke
Jordan vs 88-90' Pistons - 30 ppg.. underdog


^^^^ they aren't the same.. nice try tho

MJ's losses to the more talented Pistons compare to lebron's losses in 15' and 18', when they were underdogs like MJ's Bulls, and didn't choke...

Otoh, the 11 Finals doesn't compare because lebron was a favorite and choked hard

isnt mike 1 for 10 without scottie pippen? ultimate choke
next

[Manny98]

Lebron vs 11' Mavericks. - 18 ppg.. favorite.... all-time choke
Jordan vs 88-90' Pistons - 30 ppg.. underdog


^^^^ they aren't the same.. nice try tho

MJ's losses to the more talented Pistons compare to lebron's losses in 15' and 18', when they were underdogs like MJ's Bulls, and didn't choke...

Otoh, the 11 Finals doesn't compare because lebron was a favorite and choked hard
He was great the first 3 games but choked 3 consecutive games

Game 4 & 5 he took a combined 23 shot attempts

Not even LeBron had a two game stretch where he took so little shot attempts and was as passive as MJ was that series

[3ball]

semantics.

Choking is choking, even when it's the goat. If he gagged one up that series, it just is what it is. I'm still feeling like with how often we're quick to bring up 2011, nobody really knows wtf happened that series. There's a ton of moving parts to consider, I've got my theories but I'd like them to be more informed. Maybe it's time to revisit the year 2011....
Similar to Jordan's 89' ECF, Lebron was up 2-1 in the 15' Finals as an underdog, before having a bad game 4, and tricking off the last 3 games

Was that a "choke" like you think MJ's was?

And the same thing happened to lebron in the 10' ECSF as well, this time as a favorite

MJ's goat, so he'll be goat whether we use your logoc or mine..

[aj1987]

Similar to Jordan's 89' ECF, Lebron was up 2-1 in the 15' Finals as an underdog, before having a bad game 4, and tricking off the last 3 games

Was that a "choke" like you think MJ's was?

And the same thing happened to lebron in the 10' ECSF as well, this time as a favorite

MJ's goat, so he'll be goat whether we use your logoc or mine..
LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[3ball]

He was great the first 3 games but choked 3 consecutive games

Game 4 & 5 he took a combined 23 shot attempts

Not even LeBron had a two game stretch where he took so little shot attempts and was as passive as MJ was that series
Last 3 games

Jordan 89' ECF....... 24.3.. 3.7.. 8.7.. 44.9 fg.. 54.8 ts.. 106 ortg.. 17.3 gmsc
Lebron 11' Finals... 15.3.. 8.7.. 7.7.. 44.4 fg.. 46.6 ts.... 92 ortg.. 10.6 gmsc

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog-advanced/2011/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog-advanced/1989/


So it's not even close.. and mj was the underdog; lebron the stacked favorite

[RealSkipBayless]

[QUOTE=aj1987]LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[And1AllDay]

[QUOTE=aj1987]LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[Manny98]

Last 3 games

Jordan 89' ECF....... 24.3.. 3.7.. 8.7.. 44.9 fg.. 54.8 ts.. 106 ortg.. 17.3 gmsc
Lebron 11' Finals... 15.3.. 8.7.. 7.7.. 44.4 fg.. 46.6 ts.... 92 ortg.. 10.6 gmsc

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog-advanced/2011/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog-advanced/1989/


So it's not even close.. and mj was the underdog; lebron the stacked favorite
They both choked...

Though LeBron, a player that's known for having games where he was passive never had a two game stretch where he took less shot attempts than MJ did in 89 against the Pistons which puts into perspective how bad MJ was that series post game 3

[3ball]

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less)


Pippen...89' ECF...... 10/7 on 40%
Mosgov 15' Finals... 14/8 on 55%

Mo Will' 09 ECF....... 18 on 38%.. lost vs #4 SRS team
Pippen 89' 1st Rd... 15 on 40%.. won vs #1 SRS team






When LeBron was NOT on the floor, JR Smith, Matthew Dellavedova, James Jones and Iman Shumpert DID NOT MAKE A SHOT in the NBA Finals

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG


Efficiency WITH Lebron James on the floor in 2015 Finals:

JR Smith
Delly
J. Jones
Shumpert

Total 56/171 (32.7%)


As you can see, those guys shot horribly WITH Lebron on the floor, which is pretty standard - it's become typical for Lebron's teammates to underperform alongside him in the Finals, for obvious reasons:

It's statistical fact that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG and increases their assisted rate, thus turning them from playmakers to play-finishers.. Not surprisingly, their simple play-finishing roles no longer find success against the best playoff teams.. :confusedshrug:

With teammates playing under capacity, the TEAM plays under capacity and eventually loses to an opponent they had the capacity to beat (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

That's the difference between 3/9 underachievement and 6/6 perfection.. MJ got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), while Lebron turns them into play-finishers, leading to team underperformance.

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).

[guy]

Dirk in his own way had his own '2011' back in 07 when as the reigning MVP he was embarrassed by the underdog Warriors. His title run considering the names he left in his wake is one of the more impressive runs in recent history. I have to think that 2007 'toughened' him as well leading to the player he was by 2011. With the expectations that the Heatles would run the table on championships from the moment they synced up, I actually thought Dirk was trending to be ringless and end up in that Barkley/Malone/Ewing conversation of greats that just never quite got it done.

The difference between Dirk and that second group is his best chance came against Lebron, while those guys best chance came against Jordan. Simple as that. That

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=guy]The difference between Dirk and that second group is his best chance came against Lebron, while those guys best chance came against Jordan. Simple as that. That

[bullettooth]

It really has to suck being a LeBron fan.

[sdot_thadon]

Similar to Jordan's 89' ECF, Lebron was up 2-1 in the 15' Finals as an underdog, before having a bad game 4, and tricking off the last 3 games

Was that a "choke" like you think MJ's was?

And the same thing happened to lebron in the 10' ECSF as well, this time as a favorite

MJ's goat, so he'll be goat whether we use your logoc or mine..
as bad as you want to switch it up, Lebron already has a perfect analogue to that series. Remind us all of how the 2007 ecf went. They both faced a pretty similar situation.

[3ball]

as bad as you want to switch it up, Lebron already has a perfect analogue to that series. Remind us all of how the 2007 ecf went. They both faced a pretty similar situation.
The 15' warriors were champs snd the 89' in pistons were champs .

The 07' Pistons were nowhere near champs.. the 07' Pistons are worse in every way than the 89' Cavs (#1 SRS).. there's your analogue

[sdot_thadon]

3/4 of the shit posted around here is uninformed, so I don't think you're out of bounds dropping your own take. What's your theory?
Ok, here's my thoughts on it. Keep in mind alot of this is subjective based on what I saw/remember from that season. I'll try to keep it as short as I can. Rough outline of the 2011 campaign:

Regular season:
Lebron and Wade take turns "being the man" within the same games. Neither is willing to say "it's my team, I'm the leader" publicly. They do press conferences together, they say we alot in reference to leading the team. This line of thinking presented problems down the stretch of close games for a bit until they figured it out. I almost suspect they had a sort of gentleman's agreement in place regarding the spotlight, as I saw in particular games if one had it going and reached 30 points or so, it seemed like whichever one got there 1st would sort of defer to let the other guy "catch up" statistically. We know this was possible because stories came out duing their run of competition between the 2 in things like fg and ft %. They were definitely statistically aware of one another. Keep all this in mind later in this post....

fast forward

2011 playoffs:
Both start the postseason putting up near equal stats during the 1st 2 series, taking out Philly and Boston in the process. Usage was pretty similar between the 2 with Wade having a slightly higher percentage. Both took almost the same amount of shots through 2 series. It was a pretty close debate as to who was better to that point.

2011 Ecf:
This is where shit went left, Wade had an arguably worse series against the Bulls than Lebron later would against Dallas. Lebron starred with Bosh in that series and Wade was in the background. The 1st time legitimate Mj comparisons were made followed that series, famously by MJ's own running mate: Pippen.

2011 finals:
Lebron hype is at an all time high to that point of his career going into those finals. So after presenting as equals for the whole season and postseason up to this point, how do you feel as Dwade to hear all the Mj comparisons going into the finals? The finals start, Lebron has a good game 1 and a W. Game 2 Dwade tears it up and "waits " for Lebron to catch up, losing the game in the process.

now here's one part I need more info about:
After that game 2 loss there was a players only meeting with captains Wade and Haslem basically telling the team "we've been here before, we know what it takes, follow us" I do remember reading about this when espn had the heat index, but I've been unable to find a concrete source besides a few mentions here and there on the net since. I'd like to find an article it was reported in to verify it.

Game 3 they win with Lebron taking a step back in both fga and usage. Also this is the game Wade publicly confronted Lebron during a game. Game 4 Lebron has his infamous 8 point game. 11 fga and probably the lowest usage of his basketball life. And the rest is history, though Lebron's participation was more normal the last 2 games the damage was done.

A few thoughts, I can't pinpoint one particular thing as the culprit as there are many pieces at play. Wade and Lebron legitimately believed they could both "be the man" and it would work. Taking turns is all good in February vs. the Bobcats but not the same in the playoffs. The Mj comparisons had to be an issue whether it was discussed or not. Wade basically seizing leadership of the team mid finals after a season of "we" was likely a major mind**** to Lebron. Not to mention he probably never had a teammate ever challenge him in front of the cameras in his life prior to that. I think he quit in game 4 moreso than choking. Maybe his intention was to let the team struggle a game "without" him to prove a point (ala kobe and Mj) and have time to be the hero in the end. Not to mention Lebron's shortcomings in his game and shying away from the post in that series. Dallas played a great defensive series and deserve a ton more credit than they actually get for 2011. They made taking a backseat to Wade the correct basketball play that series and the surrounding details made it excruciating for Lebron. I mean who wants to play Robin immediately after being told you're on the radar of the goat? That was a bit longer than I intended but hopefully it relays my idea properly.

[Phoenix]

Ok, here's my thoughts on it. Keep in mind alot of this is subjective based on what I saw/remember from that season. I'll try to keep it as short as I can. Rough outline of the 2011 campaign:

Regular season:
Lebron and Wade take turns "being the man" within the same games. Neither is willing to say "it's my team, I'm the leader" publicly. They do press conferences together, they say we alot in reference to leading the team. This line of thinking presented problems down the stretch of close games for a bit until they figured it out. I almost suspect they had a sort of gentleman's agreement in place regarding the spotlight, as I saw in particular games if one had it going and reached 30 points or so, it seemed like whichever one got there 1st would sort of defer to let the other guy "catch up" statistically. We know this was possible because stories came out duing their run of competition between the 2 in things like fg and ft %. They were definitely statistically aware of one another. Keep all this in mind later in this post....

fast forward

2011 playoffs:
Both start the postseason putting up near equal stats during the 1st 2 series, taking out Philly and Boston in the process. Usage was pretty similar between the 2 with Wade having a slightly higher percentage. Both took almost the same amount of shots through 2 series. It was a pretty close debate as to who was better to that point.

2011 Ecf:
This is where shit went left, Wade had an arguably worse series against the Bulls than Lebron later would against Dallas. Lebron starred with Bosh in that series and Wade was in the background. The 1st time legitimate Mj comparisons were made followed that series, famously by MJ's own running mate: Pippen.

2011 finals:
Lebron hype is at an all time high to that point of his career going into those finals. So after presenting as equals for the whole season and postseason up to this point, how do you feel as Dwade to hear all the Mj comparisons going into the finals? The finals start, Lebron has a good game 1 and a W. Game 2 Dwade tears it up and "waits " for Lebron to catch up, losing the game in the process.

now here's one part I need more info about:
After that game 2 loss there was a players only meeting with captains Wade and Haslem basically telling the team "we've been here before, we know what it takes, follow us" I do remember reading about this when espn had the heat index, but I've been unable to find a concrete source besides a few mentions here and there on the net since. I'd like to find an article it was reported in to verify it.

Game 3 they win with Lebron taking a step back in both fga and usage. Also this is the game Wade publicly confronted Lebron during a game. Game 4 Lebron has his infamous 8 point game. 11 fga and probably the lowest usage of his basketball life. And the rest is history, though Lebron's participation was more normal the last 2 games the damage was done.

A few thoughts, I can't pinpoint one particular thing as the culprit as there are many pieces at play. Wade and Lebron legitimately believed they could both "be the man" and it would work. Taking turns is all good in February vs. the Bobcats but not the same in the playoffs. The Mj comparisons had to be an issue whether it was discussed or not. Wade basically seizing leadership of the team mid finals after a season of "we" was likely a major mind**** to Lebron. Not to mention he probably never had a teammate ever challenge him in front of the cameras in his life prior to that. I think he quit in game 4 moreso than choking. Maybe his intention was to let the team struggle a game "without" him to prove a point (ala kobe and Mj) and have time to be the hero in the end. Not to mention Lebron's shortcomings in his game and shying away from the post in that series. Dallas played a great defensive series and deserve a ton more credit than they actually get for 2011. They made taking a backseat to Wade the correct basketball play that series and the surrounding details made it excruciating for Lebron. I mean who wants to play Robin immediately after being told you're on the radar of the goat? That was a bit longer than I intended but hopefully it relays my idea properly.

Good read. Really, as much hoopla as that pairing had when announced ( the OH SHIT hype level was akin to Durant joining Steph in 2016), alot of their game/skillset was pretty redundant. It makes me wonder if they even win the 2012 title, if they didn't come to the conclusion that Lebron needed to be the focus point and Wade play off him for that duo to produce championships. A team with superior teamwork/chemistry would have ultimately overcame the 'my turn, your turn' dynamic as Dallas showed.

As an aside, I remember Wade's struggles against the Bulls in 2011 and he seemed to always do so. I don't know if he had a soft spot for them, but Kirk Hinrich of all players used to make him work.

[sdot_thadon]

Good read. Really, as much hoopla as that pairing had when announced ( the OH SHIT hype level was akin to Durant joining Steph in 2016), alot of their game/skillset was pretty redundant. It makes me wonder if they even win the 2012 title, if they didn't come to the conclusion that Lebron needed to be the focus point and Wade play off him for that duo to produce championships. A team with superior teamwork/chemistry would have ultimately overcame the 'my turn, your turn' dynamic as Dallas showed.

As an aside, I remember Wade's struggles against the Bulls in 2011 and he seemed to always do so. I don't know if he had a soft spot for them, but Kirk Hinrich of all players used to make him work.
Thanks, and yeah they definitely were redundant although their chemistry helped off set that somewhat. Wade was inured early in 2012 and while he sat he saw Lebron unleashed and either he or management thought we need "that Lebron " all the time. I think that's when it became clear and Wade's step back became more literal. Maybe one day 20 years from now when old players decide to write books we'll learn what really happened.

[Mr Feeny]

semantics.

Choking is choking, even when it's the goat. If he gagged one up that series, it just is what it is. I'm still feeling like with how often we're quick to bring up 2011, nobody really knows wtf happened that series. There's a ton of moving parts to consider, I've got my theories but I'd like them to be more informed. Maybe it's time to revisit the year 2011....

What the hell is this sht:oldlol:
Jordan won more games against the eventual champions than the Western conference champs did, with absolutely nobody on his team.

Lebron single handedly lost a series that any top 50 player would have won, with the biggest capitulation in NBa history.

One is an enormous choke. The other is anything but a choke.

[sdot_thadon]

What the hell is this sht:oldlol:
Jordan won more games against the eventual champions than the Western conference champs did, with absolutely nobody on his team.

Lebron single handedly lost a series that any top 50 player would have won, with the biggest capitulation in NBa history.

One is an enormous choke. The other is anything but a choke.
Mjs bulls and the pistons were tied 2-2 going into game 5 if the 89 conference finals. MJ's 1st trip to the finals on the line, 2 years ahead of schedule. Through 4 games he's averaging 32 points, and taking 22 shots a game. Game 5 he only takes 8 shots and has a lower usage than all but 3 guys that played in that game for the Bulls. 11th in usage for all players on both teams that game....Newspapers ran stories about him disappearing. The Bulls beat writer wrote in the book The Jordan Rules:

[QUOTE=Sam Smith]The power struggle between Jordan and Collins was never more evident than in the 1990 playoffs against Detroit. In the fifth game of the conference finals, Jordan attempted just 8 shots; the Bulls lost, and were eliminated at home in the next game. Questions flew at Jordan and Collins after the game, only to be met by the standard response about double-teaming tactics. But Collins and Jordan knew otherwise. The coach had told Jordan he was shooting too much; he had taken 31 percent of the team

[Mr Feeny]

Mjs bulls and the pistons were tied 2-2 going into game 5 if the 89 conference finals. MJ's 1st trip to the finals on the line, 2 years ahead of schedule. Through 4 games he's averaging 32 points, and taking 22 shots a game. Game 5 he only takes 8 shots and has a lower usage than all but 3 guys that played in that game for the Bulls. 11th in usage for all players on both teams that game....Newspapers ran stories about him disappearing. The Bulls beat writer wrote in the book The Jordan Rules:



Mega Choke.

Dude. Jordan took the bad boy Pistons to 6 games with trash bags as teammates. He won more games against them in 1989 and 1990 than the Wstern conference finals.
Quoting Sam freaking Smigh of all people shows me how desperate you are. Lebron fanboys can struggle with basic stuff but this is ridiculous.

A choke is what Lebron did in 2009 as favourite. A choke is what Lebron did in 2010 as favourite. A "mega choke" is the biggest collapse in basketball history in 2011.

Winning 2 games against the 89 pistins with that roster was a feather in Jordan's cap..

[sdot_thadon]

Dude. Jordan took the bad boy Pistons to 6 games with trash bags as teammates. He won more games against them in 1989 and 1990 than the Wstern conference finals.
Quoting Sam freaking Smigh of all people shows me how desperate you are. Lebron fanboys can struggle with basic stuff but this is ridiculous.

A choke is what Lebron did in 2009 as favourite. A choke is what Lebron did in 2010 as favourite. A "mega choke" is the biggest collapse in basketball history in 2011.

Winning 2 games against the 89 pistins with that roster was a feather in Jordan's cap..
So rather than have a decent back and forth where you offer something to the contrary, you'd rather try to discredit the source.:oldlol: Sam Smith is not the devil, he was the Bulls beat writer and had access to the team writers wish they had nowdays. His word is 1000x more valid than someone who just watched as a fan. Maybe you should put that book on your reading list so you can stop thinking its some sort of satanist bible. It goes behind the curtains of the bulls 1st title and bits of the years around it.

When it comes to Mj during those years, Sam Smith >>>>> you or any of us on this site.

[Mr Feeny]

So rather than have a decent back and forth where you offer something to the contrary, you'd rather try to discredit the source.:oldlol: Sam Smith is not the devil, he was the Bulls beat writer and had access to the team writers wish they had nowdays. His word is 1000x more valid than someone who just watched as a fan. Maybe you should put that book on your reading list so you can stop thinking its some sort of satanist bible. It goes behind the curtains of the bulls 1st title and bits of the years around it.

When it comes to Mj during those years, Sam Smith >>>>> you or any of us on this site.

Sam Smith is a guy with an agenda who tried to sell a book. The fact that I have to teach you who that is tells me everything. His opinion - and that's the keyword- doesnt matter.

You repeating the word choke 100 times as you melt down because your idol by consensus had the worst choke in sports history, isnt going to make this series a choke.

[sdot_thadon]

Sam Smith is a guy with an agenda who tried to sell a book. The fact that I have to teach you who that is tells me everything. His opinion - and that's the keyword- doesnt matter.

You repeating the word choke 100 times as you melt down because your idol by consensus had the worst choke in sports history, isnt going to make this series a choke.

Like I said you've apparently never read the book, you're just regurgitating what other people who dislike it for obvious reasons say. Read it for yourself, it's a good read for any Mj fan or just nba fan in particular. He presented pretty much every guy on that roster for who they were on a day to day basis including the coaches, not just Mj and it's not all bad. Some of it good, some of it bad, some of it funny. That's usually how it goes when someone shares their truth. You aren't teaching me anything, as a matter of fact you dont even know wtf you're talking about here. If you want to debate what I had to say in the previous post go ahead. If this is all you got, I suggest you take some time to know your argument better.

[Mr Feeny]

Like I said you've apparently never read the book, you're just regurgitating what other people who dislike it for obvious reasons say. Read it for yourself, it's a good read for any Mj fan or just nba fan in particular. He presented pretty much every guy on that roster for who they were on a day to day basis including the coaches, not just Mj and it's not all bad. Some of it good, some of it bad, some of it funny. That's usually how it goes when someone shares their truth. You aren't teaching me anything, as a matter of fact you dont even know wtf you're talking about here. If you want to debate what I had to say in the previous post go ahead. If this is all you got, I suggest you take some time to know your argument better.

I read it back in 1992. You dont seem to have a clue who the guy even is so I had to explain it to you. He's a beat writer with an agenda who wanted to sell a book. Your argument for Jordan "choking" is this guy giving his opinion as to what was going through Jordan' head in that series. Ofcourse, there's no way for this guy to know that but you're not interested either way. You're desperately attempting to portray a series in which Jordan took the bad boys Pistons to 6 games almost single handedly, as a choke.

Repeating yourself a hundred times isn't going to make it any more true. Now if you can articulate a cogent argument, I'm here. If you have to invoke Sam Smith's opinion about Jordan's thought process, we're through here. This is as dumb as it gets.

[sdot_thadon]

:cry:
Why don't you try reading it as an adult. And you actually didn't tell me who he was, I told you. Re-read that quote. I know exaclty who he was and how it was received back then and I actually avoided like all obedient Mj stans until About 5 years back. I read it with an open mind, and the real reason Mj stans dislike it is because it paints Mj to be similar in a lot of ways to guys they drag now. I'm not really interested in continuing a conversation about you crying over this book.

[Mr Feeny]

Why don't you try reading it as an adult. And you actually didn't tell me who he was, I told you. Re-read that quote. I know exaclty who he was and how it was received back then and I actually avoided like all obedient Mj stans until About 5 years back. I read it with an open mind, and the real reason Mj stans dislike it is because it paints Mj to be similar in a lot of ways to guys they drag now. I'm not really interested in continuing a conversation about you crying over this book.


It seems to me that it's the other way around. You're having a cry because I wont put stock in a book written by a guy with an agenda. When you - a Lebron fanboy desperately defending him in a thread about the 2011 finals- are insisting that I take it as gospel.

Go ahead. As I said, if you can articulate a cogent argument, I'm here. Otherwise, there's no point in having a discussion. This is beyond stupid.

[sdot_thadon]

It seems to me that it's the other way around. You're having a cry because I wont put stock in a book written by a guy with an agenda. When you - a Lebron fanboy desperately defending him in a thread about the 2011 finals- are insisting that I take it as gospel.

Go ahead. As I said, if you can articulate a cogent argument, I'm here. Otherwise, there's no point in having a discussion. This is beyond stupid.
You haven't made a single point in this entire exchange aside from trying to discredit a book by someone with more credit on the subject than you'll ever acquire. This isn't a discussion it's you being angry and unable to really even debate what I'm suggesting. When you finally make a counter point then this will become a discussion.

[Mr Feeny]

You haven't made a single point in this entire exchange aside from trying to discredit a book by someone with more credit on the subject than you'll ever acquire. This isn't a discussion it's you being angry and unable to really even debate what I'm suggesting. When you finally make a counter point then this will become a discussion.

That's the thing. You have failed to demonstrate how its credible. Instead, you're furiously projecting here. As I said, make a single cogent argument and I'm here. Repeating yourself as infinitum isn't going to make your cries any more true.

['Toine=MVP]

What the hell is this sht:oldlol:
Jordan won more games against the eventual champions than the Western conference champs did, with absolutely nobody on his team.

Lebron single handedly lost a series that any top 50 player would have won, with the biggest capitulation in NBa history.

One is an enormous choke. The other is anything but a choke.

I'm not sure ANY top 50 player would have won this series. Most of the top 50 players are significantly less TALENTED than LeBron and their teams might not have been in the situation LeBron's team was in.

I think a better way to phrase it might be that if any top 50 player of all time replaced LeBron in all the 4th quarters of that series, they would have played infinitely better and harder and would have very likely won that series.

[guy]

I'm not sure ANY top 50 player would have won this series. Most of the top 50 players are significantly less TALENTED than LeBron and their teams might not have been in the situation LeBron's team was in.

I think a better way to phrase it might be that if any top 50 player of all time replaced LeBron in all the 4th quarters of that series, they would have played infinitely better and harder and would have very likely won that series.

Really? Right, there

['Toine=MVP]

[QUOTE=guy]Really? Right, there

[guy]

I didn't say that no other player could have. I just said you can't guarantee that ANY other player could have. Some would have done better. Some worse. But in the 4th Quarters, even an average player would have been better.

My bad. Misread. :hammerhead:

['Toine=MVP]

My bad. Misread. :hammerhead:

I used "any" because the person I was responding to used it. But since I was using it in a negative sense, I should have changed it to "every" to keep the same meaning. So my bad too!

[sdot_thadon]

That's the thing. You have failed to demonstrate how its credible. Instead, you're furiously projecting here. As I said, make a single cogent argument and I'm here. Repeating yourself as infinitum isn't going to make your cries any more true.
I actually posted a bit of background before the quote, You just got hung up on seeing a quote from Smith and couldn't even move beyond it. That shouldn't happen if you respond to all these modern media reports from guys with only a fraction of access in comparison.

here's the part you should address btw:


Mjs bulls and the pistons were tied 2-2 going into game 5 if the 89 conference finals. MJ's 1st trip to the finals on the line, 2 years ahead of schedule. Through 4 games he's averaging 32 points, and taking 22 shots a game. Game 5 he only takes 8 shots and has a lower usage than all but 3 guys that played in that game for the Bulls. 11th in usage for all players on both teams that game.

perhaps you don't understand how eerily that lines up with game 4 in 2011.

[Mr Feeny]

I actually posted a bit of background before the quote, You just got hung up on seeing a quote from Smith and couldn't even move beyond it. That shouldn't happen if you respond to all these modern media reports from guys with only a fraction of access in comparison.

here's the part you should address btw:

perhaps you don't understand how eerily that lines up with game 4 in 2011.

It doesn't, except in the eyes of a delusional Lebron fanboy. Comparing Jordan taking the bad bou Pistons to 6 games as an underdog with lebron having the biggest choke in sports history is so stupid, that it isn't worth discussing.

[PickernRoller]

It really has to suck being a LeBron fan.

Walls of text everywhere you look. :lol :lol

[GimmeThat]

pretty sure if NBA GM's not drafting players due to cinderellas in the NCAA tournament, they'd all be fired

[guy]

True, but that overall run was great. Ending the Lakers back to back, and taking out an ascending OKC team as the lone superstar with a team of mostly veteran role players. Plus even with Lebron under-performing, Wade was still good for 27/7/6 on 60% TS. It's a legit run and doesn't deserve an asterisk on the basis that Lebron forgot he was in the finals after game 3.

FWIW, in 93 if the Knicks met the Suns I'd roll with New York in that series.

Like I said, Dirk was great. I never said it deserved an asterisk. I don't believe in asterisks. The league is what it is during a given period of time. If Lebron being a choker was part of the mix and was basically the difference between the Mavs being a better team than the Heat overall that season, then there's no reason to discredit them. All I'm saying is alot of the ringless greats that lost to Jordan wouldn't be ringless if they were given that same situation. The funny thing is there's plenty of Lebron fanboys that will probably point to Dirk being a champion as additional evidence that Lebron faced greater competition, completely ignoring the circular logic :oldlol:

[guy]

It doesn't, except in the eyes of a delusional Lebron fanboy. Comparing Jordan taking the bad bou Pistons to 6 games as an underdog with lebron having the biggest choke in sports history is so stupid, that it isn't worth discussing.

They are so desperate to find something from Jordan, or really anyone, that equates to that chokejob :oldlol: And I'm not saying it was acceptable for Jordan. That game 5 is probably the worst of his career. You can call it a choke, quitting, pettiness or just a bad miscalculation and approach to that game. Whichever it is doesnt make it that much better or worse. But that one game in no way comes close to Lebron's 2011 finals. Shit, its arguably not even close to a few other Lebron performances.

[sdot_thadon]

They are so desperate to find something from Jordan, or really anyone, that equates to that chokejob :oldlol: And I'm not saying it was acceptable for Jordan. That game 5 is probably the worst of his career. You can call it a choke, quitting, pettiness or just a bad miscalculation and approach to that game. Whichever it is doesnt make it that much better or worse. But that one game in no way come closes to the majority of Lebron's 2011 finals. Shit, its arguably not even close to a few other Lebron performances.
There's nothing wrong with being a fan until it makes you ignore things to defend your guy. Mj stans(and by stans i pretty much mean extremists) are so out of touch that they can't see any flaw mentioned about their idol. There's nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with having him as goat. There is something wrong with using 2 different methods of judgment anytime he faces a comparison of any kind. All these posts that offend you guys are really just calls for consistency in your criticism of whoever the flavor of the week may be. Alot of criticisms levied at current players have a doppelganger from Jordan's career. The biggest difference is the media climate was completely different in exposing flaw and turning them into news cycles. Whenever it's brought to light you dudes act like someone is pissing on the Virgin Mary. I grew up a major Mj stan, and still am a huge fan. But I like consistency in these discussions more than I like Mj at this point.

1989 games 1 thru 4: 32 ppg, 22fga, 34.5 usg%
2011 games 1 thru 3: 20 ppg, 15 fga, 22.7 usg%

1989 ecf game 5: 8 fga, 18.7 usg%(good for 11th place that game)
2011 finals game 4: 11 fga, 17.9 usg% (good for 7th place that game)

Lebron's game 4 was widely regarded as a choke or quit job, and i agree. Mj's output was just as big a drop in relation to his other games in the series if not worse in game 5 of the conference finals. What do we call that?

[3ball]

There's nothing wrong with being a fan until it makes you ignore things to defend your guy. Mj stans(and by stans i pretty much mean extremists) are so out of touch that they can't see any flaw mentioned about their idol. There's nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with having him as goat. There is something wrong with using 2 different methods of judgment anytime he faces a comparison of any kind. All these posts that offend you guys are really just calls for consistency in your criticism of whoever the flavor of the week may be. Alot of criticisms levied at current players have a doppelganger from Jordan's career. The biggest difference is the media climate was completely different in exposing flaw and turning them into news cycles. Whenever it's brought to light you dudes act like someone is pissing on the Virgin Mary. I grew up a major Mj stan, and still am a huge fan. But I like consistency in these discussions more than I like Mj at this point.

1989 games 1 thru 4: 32 ppg, 22fga, 34.5 usg%
2011 games 1 thru 3: 20 ppg, 15 fga, 22.7 usg%

1989 ecf game 5: 8 fga, 18.7 usg%(good for 11th place that game)
2011 finals game 4: 11 fga, 17.9 usg% (good for 7th place that game)

Lebron's game 4 was widely regarded as a choke or quit job, and i agree. Mj's output was just as big a drop in relation to his other games in the series.. What do we call that?


Lebron thru 3 games of 15' Finals - 41 ppg

Game 5 - 20 points


So it's okay for Lebron to have a "big drop in relation to his other games" (as you said above) and lose as the underdog, but not 89' MJ?..

You keep comparing 11' Lebron to 89' MJ when they're different because 11' Lebron was in "stacked team favorite" mode, and 89' MJ was in "underdog, carry-job" mode, similar to Lebron in 2015.

That's why MJ doesn't get knocked for his 89' ECF, just like Lebron doesn't get knocked for his 15' carry-job.. Both were in "underdog, carry-job mode" and broke down late in the series, yet still get praised because they were the underdog and carrying the team.. Neither compare to 11' Lebron, when he backfired as the stacked favorite.
.

[superduper]

Like I said, Dirk was great. I never said it deserved an asterisk. I don't believe in asterisks. The league is what it is during a given period of time. If Lebron being a choker was part of the mix and was basically the difference between the Mavs being a better team than the Heat overall that season, then there's no reason to discredit them. All I'm saying is alot of the ringless greats that lost to Jordan wouldn't be ringless if they were given that same situation. The funny thing is there's plenty of Lebron fanboys that will probably point to Dirk being a champion as additional evidence that Lebron faced greater competition, completely ignoring the circular logic :oldlol:

Boom.

Malone/Stockton would be 2x champs if they faced Bron.

Barkley would be 1x champ.

Don't even get me started on Hakeem..

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron thru 3 games of 15' Finals - 41 ppg

Game 5 - 20 points


So it's okay for Lebron to have a "big drop in relation to his other games" (as you said above) and lose as the underdog, but not 89' MJ?..

You keep comparing 11' Lebron to 89' MJ when they're different because 11' Lebron was in "stacked team favorite" mode, and 89' MJ was in "underdog, carry-job" mode, similar to Lebron in 2015.

That's why MJ doesn't get knocked for his 89' ECF, just like Lebron doesn't get knocked for his 15' carry-job.. Both were in "underdog, carry-job mode" and broke down late in the series, yet still get praised because they were the underdog and carrying the team.. Neither compare to 11' Lebron, when he backfired as the stacked favorite.
.
why even quote my thread if you don't want any part of discussing it goal post jr.?:kobe:

The reason I'm comparing it to 89 is because it's a similar pattern, the most obvious comparison to 89 is 07 when Lebron faced almost a near 1:1 scenario and we know what he did in his game 5(a historic game) so why even bother? 2015 has never been referred to as a "choke" for Lebron, unless you somehow believe you can choke your way to almost taking fmvp on the losing squad......

The point that's lost on your binary mind is I'm not just citing points scored, thats the reason fga and usage are there. MJ's game 5 was actually his most minutes played that series, yet his least productive, least involved game. Coming on the heels of Collins feeling some kind of way about shot attempts. This isn't rocket science bud. And next time you quote me, let's talk about what I actually posted sucka.:coleman:

[guy]

There's nothing wrong with being a fan until it makes you ignore things to defend your guy. Mj stans(and by stans i pretty much mean extremists) are so out of touch that they can't see any flaw mentioned about their idol. There's nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with having him as goat. There is something wrong with using 2 different methods of judgment anytime he faces a comparison of any kind. All these posts that offend you guys are really just calls for consistency in your criticism of whoever the flavor of the week may be. Alot of criticisms levied at current players have a doppelganger from Jordan's career. The biggest difference is the media climate was completely different in exposing flaw and turning them into news cycles. Whenever it's brought to light you dudes act like someone is pissing on the Virgin Mary. I grew up a major Mj stan, and still am a huge fan. But I like consistency in these discussions more than I like Mj at this point.

1989 games 1 thru 4: 32 ppg, 22fga, 34.5 usg%
2011 games 1 thru 3: 20 ppg, 15 fga, 22.7 usg%

1989 ecf game 5: 8 fga, 18.7 usg%(good for 11th place that game)
2011 finals game 4: 11 fga, 17.9 usg% (good for 7th place that game)

Lebron's game 4 was widely regarded as a choke or quit job, and i agree. Mj's output was just as big a drop in relation to his other games in the series if not worse in game 5 of the conference finals. What do we call that?

Lebron

[sdot_thadon]

[QUOTE=guy]Lebron

[Mr Feeny]

They are so desperate to find something from Jordan, or really anyone, that equates to that chokejob :oldlol: And I'm not saying it was acceptable for Jordan. That game 5 is probably the worst of his career. You can call it a choke, quitting, pettiness or just a bad miscalculation and approach to that game. Whichever it is doesnt make it that much better or worse. But that one game in no way comes close to Lebron's 2011 finals. Shit, its arguably not even close to a few other Lebron performances.

I know. Especially this fanboy. But this is just plain stupid. When you use a series in which Jordan took the Bad Boys to 6 games single handidly and attempt to equate that with the biggest choke in sports history, you know you're desperate.

Jordan was being triple teamed. He was being clotheslines. The entire Detroit defense couldn't give a sh about the other 4 Bulls (and they admitted as much on video). Passing when you're triple teamed because you're facing a defense that was specifically designed for you is world apart from hiding in the corner of the court because you're afraid of Jason Terry on single coverage.

There is a reason 2011 is brought up in every discussion when it comes to the GOAT debate and not a single series of Jordan's os brought up. But that might confuse this Lebron fanboy because in his mind, everyone on the planet is wrong.

[Manny98]

I know. Especially this fanboy. But this is just plain stupid. When you use a series in which Jordan took the Bad Boys to 6 games single handidly and attempt to equate that with the biggest choke in sports history, you know you're desperate.

Jordan was being triple teamed. He was being clotheslines. The entire Detroit defense couldn't give a sh about the other 4 Bulls (and they admitted as much on video). Passing when you're triple teamed because you're facing a defense that was specifically designed for you is world apart from hiding in the corner of the court because you're afraid of Jason Terry on single coverage.

There is a reason 2011 is brought up in every discussion when it comes to the GOAT debate and not a single series of Jordan's os brought up. But that might confuse this Lebron fanboy because in his mind, everyone on the planet is wrong.
Show me a 2 game stretch where LeBron took only 23 shots and disappeared from the face of the earth like MJ did in game 4 & 5 against the Pistons

89 was one of the worst chokejobs by a top 10 GOAT face it

[Mr Feeny]

Show me a 2 game stretch where LeBron took only 23 shots and disappeared from the face of the earth like MJ did in game 4 & 5 against the Pistons

89 was one of the worst chokejobs by a top 10 GOAT face it

Is this a bad joke or do you really, truly not know anything about Lebron?

Why on earth would we dismiss the first 3 games or stop at game 5 without including game 6? Jordan averaged 24.3 ppg while being triple teamed by the Bad Boy Pistons in the last 3 games of the series.

Now, you asked about a 2 game stretch where anyone "disappeared the way Jordan did as he scored 20.5 ppg in games 4 and 5 when Detroit clamped down on him"

How about the ENTIRE 6 game 2011 finals? Because in each of those games in which Jordan disappeared, he scored more than Lebron's entire 2011 AVERAGE.


Incidently, it wasn't Lebron's only 2 game colossal choke:

In 2010, in games 4 and 5 Lebron had 22 and 15 points prospectively as he choked away the series while being the top seed, facing single coverage by a geriatric Paul Pierce.

In 1989, Jordan averaged 30ppg, 6.5 apg, 5.5 rpg and - over the last 3 games while being triple teamed and hanchecked by the bad Boys Pistons, averaged 24.3 ppg. Lebron's entire series average in 2011 was 17 ppg and change.

Need I continue or are you Lebron fanboys going to have a cry?

[Manny98]

Is this a bad joke or do you really, truly not know anything about Lebron?

Why on earth would we dismiss the first 3 games or stop at game 5 without including game 6? Jordan averaged 24.3 ppg while being triple teamed by the Bad Boy Pistons in the last 3 games of the series.

Now, you asked about a 2 game stretch where anyone "disappeared the way Jordan did as he scored 20.5 ppg in games 4 and 5 when Detroit clamped down on him"

How about the ENTIRE 6 game 2011 finals? Because in each of those games in which Jordan disappeared, he scored more than Lebron's entire 2011 AVERAGE.


Incidently, it wasn't Lebron's only 2 game colossal choke:

In 2010, in games 4 and 5 Lebron had 22 and 15 points prospectively as he choked away the series while being the top seed, facing single coverage by a geriatric Paul Pierce.

In 1989, Jordan averaged 30ppg, 6.5 apg, 5.5 rpg and - over the last 3 games while being triple teamed and hanchecked by the bad Boys Pistons, averaged 24.3 ppg. Lebron's entire series average in 2011 was 17 ppg and change.

Need I continue or are you Lebron fanboys going to have a cry?
Meltdown and you didn't even answer the question :oldlol:

Find me a 2 game stretch where LeBron took less than 23 shots, still waiting

[FKAri]

It's the magnum opus.

[Mr Feeny]

Meltdown and you didn't even answer the question :oldlol:

Find me a 2 game stretch where LeBron took less than 23 shots, still waiting

Wait. You think it's a good thing to shoot 3-15? It's about how much you score. And Jordan scored more in games 4 and 5 in 89 than Lebron did vs Boston despite the fact that he was triple teammates by the Bad Boy Pistons.

Done and dusted. Next.

[Hey Yo]

Is this a bad joke or do you really, truly not know anything about Lebron?

Why on earth would we dismiss the first 3 games or stop at game 5 without including game 6? Jordan averaged 24.3 ppg while being triple teamed by the Bad Boy Pistons in the last 3 games of the series.

Now, you asked about a 2 game stretch where anyone "disappeared the way Jordan did as he scored 20.5 ppg in games 4 and 5 when Detroit clamped down on him"

How about the ENTIRE 6 game 2011 finals? Because in each of those games in which Jordan disappeared, he scored more than Lebron's entire 2011 AVERAGE.


Incidently, it wasn't Lebron's only 2 game colossal choke:

In 2010, in games 4 and 5 Lebron had 22 and 15 points prospectively as he choked away the series while being the top seed, facing single coverage by a geriatric Paul Pierce.

In 1989, Jordan averaged 30ppg, 6.5 apg, 5.5 rpg and - over the last 3 games while being triple teamed and hanchecked by the bad Boys Pistons, averaged 24.3 ppg. Lebron's entire series average in 2011 was 17 ppg and change.

Need I continue or are you Lebron fanboys going to have a cry?
Complete fabricated bullshit. He was doubled hard a lot times in game 4 but not nearly as much in game 5 where he quit. He had many open looks in game 5 but chose not to shoot.

Go watch the games instead of making shit up.

[Hey Yo]

Wait. You think it's a good thing to shoot 3-15? It's about how much you score. And Jordan scored more in games 4 and 5 in 89 than Lebron did vs Boston despite the fact that he was triple teamed by the Bad Boy Pistons.

Done and dusted. Next.
Resorting to flat out lies you're so desperate

:oldlol:

[Manny98]

Wait. You think it's a good thing to shoot 3-15? It's about how much you score. And Jordan scored more in games 4 and 5 in 89 than Lebron did vs Boston despite the fact that he was triple teammates by the Bad Boy Pistons.

Done and dusted. Next.
It's better to be aggressive than disappearing like MJ against the Pistons

Still waiting chop chop find me a 2 game stretch of LeBron being as passive as MJ in 89

[superduper]

It's better to be aggressive than disappearing like MJ against the Pistons

Still waiting chop chop find me a 2 game stretch of LeBron being as passive as MJ in 89

Imagine a dude that slobs Bran and hates on MJ/Kobe saying this :facepalm :facepalm

This guy is literally the worst troll in ISH history. Not even remotely funny and just straight up stupid.

[Manny98]

This guy is literally the worst troll in ISH history. Not even remotely funny and just straight up stupid.
Look in the mirror :lol

[egokiller]

I know. Especially this fanboy. But this is just plain stupid. When you use a series in which Jordan took the Bad Boys to 6 games single handidly and attempt to equate that with the biggest choke in sports history, you know you're desperate.

Jordan was being triple teamed. He was being clotheslines. The entire Detroit defense couldn't give a sh about the other 4 Bulls (and they admitted as much on video). Passing when you're triple teamed because you're facing a defense that was specifically designed for you is world apart from hiding in the corner of the court because you're afraid of Jason Terry on single coverage.

There is a reason 2011 is brought up in every discussion when it comes to the GOAT debate and not a single series of Jordan's os brought up. But that might confuse this Lebron fanboy because in his mind, everyone on the planet is wrong.

Is the same shit with these lil fucc bois.

1. Someone (usually 3ball) lays down some facts which confirm Lebron is inferior to MJ as a basketball player and a winner in order to get the lestans all upset.

2. Those that didn’t see MJ/lestans get all offended and post nonsense in a weak effort to elevate Lebron to MJ status.

3. They fail, and get rolled over my those who watched MJ.

Same shit, different day... yet the tears always taste good.

[Hey Yo]

Look in the mirror :lol
Got him

:lol :lol

[egokiller]

Got him

:lol :lol

Yep, that Pinoy who has lebron ranked 11th really got him. :roll:

[bullettooth]

Yep, that Pinoy who has lebron ranked 11th really got him. :roll:

Holy smokes! Tranny98 really has LeBron that far down the list?! Did he have an epiphany?

[egokiller]

Holy smokes! Tranny98 really has LeBron that far down the list?! Did he have an epiphany?

He logged in on the wrong account and posted this:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13807575&postcount=2

[bullettooth]

He logged in on the wrong account and posted this:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13807575&postcount=2

Oh no! Poor kid, he must be pretty embarrassed :(

[egokiller]

Oh no! Poor kid, he must be pretty embarrassed :(

He was warned by Jeff to be careful when switching between his alts to argue with himself and he slipped up. Now we just post that link whenever he talks about LeBron to remind him of his mistake.

[Manny98]

He logged in on the wrong account and posted this:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13807575&postcount=2
Your so gullible It's cute :oldlol:

[egokiller]

Your so gullible It's cute :oldlol:

It's not gonna work kid. We got you on record. :banana:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13807575&postcount=2

[guy]

Game 4 is the most highlighted game of that series because it was the game after which people started asking is something wrong with him and pointed out that he just stood in the corner for huge stretches of that game. It gets generalized as a series long thing because there's distance now and people are too lazy to revisit things. Its lost on many that just a few days prior MJ's own teammate was proclaiming Lebron as better than Mj. And I'm not really in the business of caring which is worst to be completely honest as I don't judge players by their worst moments to begin with. It's all semantics, the whole point of the exercise is all players "choke" at some point, even the goat. Lebron has done so much beyond that series that yes, in some ways its become a footnote. Was it terrible? Sure it was. But it led to a handful of legendary moments since. Failing without redemption is just failing. Failing and coming back greater than before? That's what goats do.

Pippen's comments were before the finals. Not just a few days prior to game 4 and not anytime after game 2 when he was already starting to shit the bed.

I don't care what game was highlighted most. Game 4 was the worst of it. That doesn't mean he was totally fine in the previous games. This infamous graphic below applies to earlier in the series as well. By game 4 it became apparent that it was clearly a pattern as opposed to games 2 and/or 3 just being outliers.

http://i67.tinypic.com/5wy2va.jpg

It was basically a series long thing, as evident by the fact that his overall series production took a nose-dive relative to what it was during the regular season and the first 3 rounds of the playoffs. It literally may be the biggest drop-off statistically in NBA history. Completely different from Jordan's 89 ECF where his production didn't have anywhere near that much of a drop-off and was still relatively close.

We can to agree to disagree, but if you're going to judge players and then take it a step further and compare them to other players, its only fair that you compare them by their best, average, and worst moments. Its wildly convenient to just take all bad performances and put them in the same bucket and ignore that there is clearly different levels of how bad they are. You can literally argue that the Heat may have been better off if Lebron got hurt after game 1 and didn't play the rest of the series. There is no such situation for Jordan, and probably not for any other top 10 great.

[Manny98]

It's not gonna work kid. We got you on record. :banana:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13807575&postcount=2
Yh man i totally deep down believe that LeBron is not a top 10 player all time you got me :oldlol:

[guy]

It's better to be aggressive than disappearing like MJ against the Pistons

Still waiting chop chop find me a 2 game stretch of LeBron being as passive as MJ in 89

Game 4 has no place in this argument. That was just a bad game and has nothing to do with aggressiveness (and has alot to do with how Collins/Jordan approached game 5). Jordan took 17 FTAs that game. Shots that your fouled on don't count as FGA unless you make them anyway. This was the game where the Pistons reimplemented the Jordan rules and either hacked him on many of his shots or didn't let him take the shot in the first place.

By the way, Lebron took 20 FTAs the entire 2011 Finals :oldlol: Jordan took 23 FGAs and 28 FTAs in game 4 and 5. Lebron took 25 FGAs and 8 FTAs in games 3 and 4. That 2 game stretch from Lebron is EASILY more passive.

[Manny98]

Game 4 has no place in this argument. That was just a bad game and has nothing to do with aggressiveness (and has alot to do with how Collins/Jordan approached game 5). Jordan took 17 FTAs that game. Shots that your fouled on don't count as FGA unless you make them anyway. This was the game where the Pistons reimplemented the Jordan rules and either hacked him on many of his shots or didn't let him take the shot in the first place.

By the way, Lebron took 20 FTAs the entire 2011 Finals :oldlol: Jordan took 23 FGAs and 28 FTAs in game 4 and 5. Lebron took 25 FGAs and 8 FTAs in games 3 and 4. That 2 game stretch from Lebron is EASILY more passive.
Free throws? df are you talking about :oldlol:

Jordan took only 23 field goal attempts in games 3 & 4 with a chance to go up 3-1 and beat the Pistons instead he pulls of the biggest disappearing act in NBA history because the pressure was too much for him at the time

Not even LeBron at his worst shrunk as badly as MJ did in 89

[guy]

Free throws? df are you talking about :oldlol:

Jordan took only 23 field goal attempts in games 3 & 4 with a chance to go up 3-1 and beat the Pistons instead he pulls of the biggest disappearing act in NBA history because the pressure was too much for him at the time

Not even LeBron at his worst shrunk as badly as MJ did in 89

You're talking about games 4 & 5. You don't take 17 free throws in a game without being aggressive. You do realize how shot attempts that a player is fouled on are treated right?

[Manny98]

You're talking about games 4 & 5. You don't take 17 free throws in a game without being aggressive. You do realize how shot attempts that a player is fouled on are treated right?
No matter how you try and move the goalposts nothing is going to change the fact that your hero disappeared from the face of the earth in the 2 biggest games of his career :oldlol:

[guy]

No matter how you try and move the goalposts nothing is going to change the fact that your hero disappeared from the face of the earth in the 2 biggest games of his career :oldlol:

I'm not moving goal posts, I'm asking you a simple question. Do you understand how shot attempts a player is fouled on are treated? How is that not relevant when you're comparing how aggressive a player was?

In one of Dirk's greatest playoff performances, he scored 48 points and only had 15 FGA and made no 3-pointers. How did he do that? Was that a passive 48 points? :oldlol:

[bullettooth]

Yh man i totally deep down believe that LeBron is not a top 10 player all time you got me :oldlol:

Then why did you say that?

[Hey Yo]

You're talking about games 4 & 5. You don't take 17 free throws in a game without being aggressive. You do realize how shot attempts that a player is fouled on are treated right?
Not all free throw attempts are a direct result from being fouled in the act of shooting.

[guy]

Not all free throw attempts are a direct result from being fouled in the act of shooting.

You

[bullettooth]

Not all free throw attempts are a direct result from being fouled in the act of shooting.

Correct.

https://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lebron-flop-3.gif

[Mr Feeny]

I am melting down because I have no response:( :cry: My hero choked on single coverage against a scrub playing with no handchecking while Michael Jordan comfortably outscored my hero even though he was hand checked and triple teamed by the Bad boy Pistons who implemented a defense specically to combat hin
:oldlol:


Alright, done:applause:

[Mr Feeny]

[QUOTE=egokiller]Is the same shit with these lil fucc bois.

1. Someone (usually 3ball) lays down some facts which confirm Lebron is inferior to MJ as a basketball player and a winner in order to get the lestans all upset.

2. Those that didn

[aj1987]

]Pippen...89' ECF...... 10/7 on 40%
Mosgov 15' Finals... 14/8 on 55%

Mo Will' 09 ECF....... 18 on 38%.. lost vs #4 SRS team
Pippen 89' 1st Rd... 15 on 40%.. won vs #1 SRS team

Efficiency WITH Lebron James on the floor in 2015 Finals:

JR Smith
Delly
J. Jones
Shumpert

Total 56/171 (32.7%)


As you can see, those guys shot horribly WITH Lebron on the floor, which is pretty standard - it's become typical for Lebron's teammates to underperform alongside him in the Finals, for obvious reasons:

It's statistical fact that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG and increases their assisted rate, thus turning them from playmakers to play-finishers.. Not surprisingly, their simple play-finishing roles no longer find success against the best playoff teams.. :confusedshrug:

With teammates playing under capacity, the TEAM plays under capacity and eventually loses to an opponent they had the capacity to beat (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

That's the difference between 3/9 underachievement and 6/6 perfection.. MJ got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), while Lebron turns them into play-finishers, leading to team underperformance.

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).[/SIZE]
LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland