Everyone talks about 2011... but what about 2010?

[Doranku]

Cavs #1 overall seed, 61 wins
ECSF
2-2 series
Game 5 in Cleveland...


Cavs lose by 32. LeBron James: 15 pts on 3/14 shooting (Shaq had 21 points on 11 shots and 4 blocks in 26 minutes)


What happened???

[NBAGOAT]

one truly awful game but easily and understandably overshadowed by a bad series in 2011 overall.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron has had a couple bad series in his career, which is why he isn't GOAT.

But, he is still top 3-4 all time.

[PickernRoller]

A couple? :lol :lol

[StrongLurk]

A couple? :lol :lol

No more than anyone else not named MJ.

[Young X]

His last 3 games of that series...34 FG%, 46.8 TS%, 6.3 TO's, 87 ORtg. Awful way to end the series.

[Spurs m8]

The dudes has always needed a shitload of help to get anything done

[ShawkFactory]

This was a very weird case. He

[bullettooth]

When LeBron wins; it's by a hair (funny for an insecure balding douchebag like him). But when he loses... it's in record fashion.

LeBron is trash.

[Stringer Bell]

Lots of people shredded him for his game 5 performance, and how he just talked about his great he is when reporters asked him about his struggles that game.

He struggled likewise in game 4, and game 6 he never seemed to be nearly as effective as his final statline showed. He also almost got a quadruple double if you include turnovers :lol

But game 5 he was just awful.

I remember the theories at the time. Besides the Gloronte rumors, there was also these “LeBron quit/sabotaged the game so he could leave to Miami” theories.

Then after his awful 2011 finals, people just called him a choker and said that explained 2010.

[sportjames23]

When LeBron wins; it's by a hair (funny for an insecure balding douchebag like him). But when he loses... it's in record fashion.

LeBron is trash.

True statement. :applause:

[Indian guy]

Boston was the significantly more talented team and were peaking at the right time after basically taking the regular season off. That's what happened.

And do we talk enough about 2011.....Cavaliers? 19 wins :D

Let's be real, those weren't championship teams, no matter what they accomplished in the regular season. The huge talent drop-off after LeBron was always going to get exposed in the playoffs. No to mention the guy on the sidelines - Mike Brown :ohwell:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Boston was the significantly more talented team and were peaking at the right time after basically taking the regular season off. That's what happened.

And do we talk enough about 2011.....Cavaliers? 19 wins :D

Let's be real, those weren't championship teams, no matter what they accomplished in the regular season. The huge talent drop-off after LeBron was always going to get exposed in the playoffs. No to mention the guy on the sidelines - Mike Brown :ohwell:
That's disingenuous af ... Cavaliers lost more than just LeBron. And more so than that, they don't run an offense. A LeBron team runs everything through him. So when he bolts and leaves like the competitive coward mercenary he is ... everything goes to shit.

He's a floor raiser yes, but with even greater talent IE Miami and Cleveland Stint 2, or last years Lakers ... he struggles to maximize their potential ceiling level of success.

He marginalizes other greats with his style of play. Needing to ball dominate, and be high usage. Why? LeBron doesn't play to win. He plays for narrative, through his STATS. Because he's too big of a chicken shit loser afraid to lose, than roll the dice going all out in the manner of play (IE man defense - see KD 2017 and 2018) in takes to win.

But given his style of play, he can not be absolutely dominant in high leverage situations when pressure is at it's highest. That's why his bitch ass needed prime D-Wade, and then in turn the best ISO scorer in the league, Kyrie as mental and skillful basketball safety blankets.

Now he needs arguably the best PF / Stretch Four ... 3rd best PER player ever.

:oldlol:

This dude's need for help given the way his stans overrate his abilities as a potential GOAT candidate never ceases to ****ing amaze me. They're excuse making cowards just like the player they Stan.

Indian Guy being a Chicagoan who hangs off Bron's Jock is utterly ****ing embarrassing.

[tpols]

His last 3 games of that series...34 FG%, 46.8 TS%, 6.3 TO's, 87 ORtg. Awful way to end the series.


he quit.

the miami booking was already made.

the same exact thing happened in 2014 when the heat got avalanched before next team hop.

and in 2018 another record breaking loss before the next team hop.

preceding every leap, were defeats by massive margin.

[SamuraiSWISH]

he quit.

the miami booking was already made.

the same exact thing happened in 2014 when the heat got avalanched before next team hop.

and in 2018 another record breaking loss before the next team hop.

the quits are strong before the jump, and the defeats by massive margin.
:applause:

to anyone with a brain who notices

[warriorfan]

Cavs #1 overall seed, 61 wins
ECSF
2-2 series
Game 5 in Cleveland...


Cavs lose by 32. LeBron James: 15 pts on 3/14 shooting (Shaq had 21 points on 11 shots and 4 blocks in 26 minutes)


What happened???

Lebron quit on his team and faked an elbow injury to try to deflect, he even started shooting free throws left handed...Mysteriously all x-rays and mri

[PickernRoller]

Just like the broken hand after the 18' whooping! :roll: :roll: :roll:

Mr. Narrative.

[warriorfan]

Just like the broken hand after the 18' whooping! :roll: :roll: :roll:

Mr. Narrative.

Yeah, if LeBron feels like he can create some sort of narrative where he isn’t the scapegoat....he will flat out quit right there on the spot

Lebron literally doesn’t play to win, he plays not to lose

[Nikola_]

Why he ducked kobe in those years is beyond me, it was dream finals..

[ImKobe]

Boston was the significantly more talented team and were peaking at the right time after basically taking the regular season off. That's what happened.

And do we talk enough about 2011.....Cavaliers? 19 wins :D

Let's be real, those weren't championship teams, no matter what they accomplished in the regular season. The huge talent drop-off after LeBron was always going to get exposed in the playoffs. No to mention the guy on the sidelines - Mike Brown :ohwell:

Cavs obviously went into tank mode with Lebron leaving to land a new franchise player, this argument is so stupid it's hilarious idiots like you are still using it in 2019 :facepalm . No shit they won 19 games, look at who they played that season.

[aj1987]

That's disingenuous af ... Cavaliers lost more than just LeBron. And more so than that, they don't run an offense. A LeBron team runs everything through him. So when he bolts and leaves like the competitive coward mercenary he is ... everything goes to shit.

He's a floor raiser yes, but with even greater talent IE Miami and Cleveland Stint 2, or last years Lakers ... he struggles to maximize their potential ceiling level of success.

He marginalizes other greats with his style of play. Needing to ball dominate, and be high usage. Why? LeBron doesn't play to win. He plays for narrative, through his STATS. Because he's too big of a chicken shit loser afraid to lose, than roll the dice going all out in the manner of play (IE man defense - see KD 2017 and 2018) in takes to win.

But given his style of play, he can not be absolutely dominant in high leverage situations when pressure is at it's highest. That's why his bitch ass needed prime D-Wade, and then in turn the best ISO scorer in the league, Kyrie as mental and skillful basketball safety blankets.

Now he needs arguably the best PF / Stretch Four ... 3rd best PER player ever.

:oldlol:

This dude's need for help given the way his stans overrate his abilities as a potential GOAT candidate never ceases to ****ing amaze me. They're excuse making cowards just like the player they Stan.

Indian Guy being a Chicagoan who hangs off Bron's Jock is utterly ****ing embarrassing.
You call him disingenuous and you post this horse shit drivel?

Wade, when healthy, was just as good with LeBron as he was without him.

Kyrie had some of his best ever seasons WITH LeBron.

Mo Williams had his best ever season with LeBron.

Big Z had his career season with LeBron.

Kuzma and Ingram had their best seasons with LeBron.

I could just keep going.

As for Bosh, he went from being the #1 option and averaging 20/9/2/1 on 49% to 17/7/2/1 on 51% as the #3 option in 3 fewer minutes per game as well.



If you want to talk to players marginalizing others with ZERO context, lets look your lover, shall we?

Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.


And you talk about being a coach, while displaying the basketball intelligence of an autistic chipmunk. Ignore all context of the injuries that LeBron's teammates have faced over the years and claim that LeBron is the reason why those teams under performed. Makes sense. Not to mention the fact that LeBron faced better competition in his last 3 Finals, than Jordan ever did in his entire career.

Funny, how you claim LeBron is a coward, while he's statistically one of the GOAT clutch performers and your idol, dad killer, was such a cowardly shit that he retired multiple times when he knew he was going to get humiliated. Quit the second time when Pip left, 'cause the coward knew that there was ZERO chance of him winning without Pippen (1-9).

Lets not forget his massive chokes in games 4 and 5 in '89, which conveniently get swept under the rug, "coach".

[sdot_thadon]

You call him disingenuous and you post this horse shit drivel?

Wade, when healthy, was just as good with LeBron as he was without him.

Kyrie had some of his best ever seasons WITH LeBron.

Mo Williams had his best ever season with LeBron.

Big Z had his career season with LeBron.

Kuzma and Ingram had their best seasons with LeBron.

I could just keep going.

As for Bosh, he went from being the #1 option and averaging 20/9/2/1 on 49% to 17/7/2/1 on 51% as the #3 option in 3 fewer minutes per game as well.



If you want to talk to players marginalizing others with ZERO context, lets look your lover, shall we?

Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.


And you talk about being a coach, while displaying the basketball intelligence of an autistic chipmunk. Ignore all context of the injuries that LeBron's teammates have faced over the years and claim that LeBron is the reason why those teams under performed. Makes sense. Not to mention the fact that LeBron faced better competition in his last 3 Finals, than Jordan ever did in his entire career.

Funny, how you claim LeBron is a coward, while he's statistically one of the GOAT clutch performers and your idol, dad killer, was such a cowardly shit that he retired multiple times when he knew he was going to get humiliated. Quit the second time when Pip left, 'cause the coward knew that there was ZERO chance of him winning without Pippen (1-9).

Lets not forget his massive chokes in games 4 and 5 in '89, which conveniently get swept under the rug, "coach".
That shit that makes your soul burn slow......

[RRR3]

That's disingenuous af ... Cavaliers lost more than just LeBron. And more so than that, they don't run an offense. A LeBron team runs everything through him. So when he bolts and leaves like the competitive coward mercenary he is ... everything goes to shit.

He's a floor raiser yes, but with even greater talent IE Miami and Cleveland Stint 2, or last years Lakers ... he struggles to maximize their potential ceiling level of success.

He marginalizes other greats with his style of play. Needing to ball dominate, and be high usage. Why? LeBron doesn't play to win. He plays for narrative, through his STATS. Because he's too big of a chicken shit loser afraid to lose, than roll the dice going all out in the manner of play (IE man defense - see KD 2017 and 2018) in takes to win.

But given his style of play, he can not be absolutely dominant in high leverage situations when pressure is at it's highest. That's why his bitch ass needed prime D-Wade, and then in turn the best ISO scorer in the league, Kyrie as mental and skillful basketball safety blankets.

Now he needs arguably the best PF / Stretch Four ... 3rd best PER player ever.

:oldlol:

This dude's need for help given the way his stans overrate his abilities as a potential GOAT candidate never ceases to ****ing amaze me. They're excuse making cowards just like the player they Stan.

Indian Guy being a Chicagoan who hangs off Bron's Jock is utterly ****ing embarrassing.
Post this on your 3ball account.

[superduper]

Now I see why Bran literally needs an allstar team to be remotely relevant.

[aj1987]

Now I see why Bran literally needs an allstar team to be remotely relevant.
He just needs turds like you to make millions for him, kiddo.

[PickernRoller]

Someone's acid is burning through his stomach... :mad: :mad: :mad:

[egokiller]

Always someone seething over 3/9....:roll:

[3ball]

he quit.

the miami booking was already made.

the same exact thing happened in 2014 when the heat got avalanched before next team hop.

and in 2018 another record breaking loss before the next team hop.

preceding every leap, were defeats by massive margin.
truest shit ever written

[Mr Feeny]

Cavs #1 overall seed, 61 wins
ECSF
2-2 series
Game 5 in Cleveland...


Cavs lose by 32. LeBron James: 15 pts on 3/14 shooting (Shaq had 21 points on 11 shots and 4 blocks in 26 minutes)


What happened???

Nobody is forgetting. It was a disaster and is part of the reason the choker tag gets levelled at him.

2009 and 2010 were awful. But 2011 was the biggest collapse in sports history. As such, it isnt surprising that the previous year doesnt get brought up AS MUCH. Why would anyone need to bring it up when just mentioning the Mavs series suffices.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

09-11 Bran was putting on a clinic in how to choke offensively and/or defensively as the heavy favorite with homecourt advantage against massive underdogs

[3ball]

09-11 Bran was putting on a clinic in how to choke offensively and/or defensively as the heavy favorite with homecourt advantage against massive underdogs
Yeah, its sad because weak casts were routinely making that Finals from the East at that time - 5 times from 01-09 (Dwight 09', Lebron 07', Kidd twice, AI 01')

So Lebron had great opportunities for easy paths in 2009 and 2010, but he ceded the easy run to Dwight - and even though the runs were easy and up for grabs, but Lebron decided to stack the deck from 11-18' to ensure Finals runs.. Shameful.. and even more shameful to call it "goat" or even compare it

[Mr Feeny]

Cavs #1 overall seed, 61 wins
ECSF
2-2 series
Game 5 in Cleveland...


Cavs lose by 32. LeBron James: 15 pts on 3/14 shooting (Shaq had 21 points on 11 shots and 4 blocks in 26 minutes)


What happened???

And he did it on single coverage. That was the strange thing. He just......withered under the pressure.

[GimmeThat]

the Cavs offense had showed a pretty big problem, and the root of it was defensive scheme.

players on offense weren't cohesive on off-ball movements as to cut away from the ball or towards the ball, this was a result from having no direct plan regarding whether to provide help and double coverage on the Celtics Guard.

essentially this turned into fast break opportunities for the Celtics, who didn't even shoot the ball particularly well that series.

[VictorMosquito]

BUMP :dancin

[iamgine]

What about 2010? Lebron averaged 27 ppg. Had no help. Same old story as 09, 08, 07. Why should anyone talk about it?

[sportjames23]

No more than anyone else not named MJ.

More than Magic and probably Bird.

[FKAri]

More than Magic and probably Bird.
Bird never choked liked Tragic.

[superduper]

So Bran plays like absolute shit and loses with Shaq playing at peak prime Shaq level.

Proof that Bran wouldn't with shit with peak Shaq. Need a special type of scoring playmaker to win it all with Shaq.

[ImKobe]

So Bran plays like absolute shit and loses with Shaq playing at peak prime Shaq level.

Proof that Bran wouldn't with shit with peak Shaq. Need a special type of scoring playmaker to win it all with Shaq.

Peak Lebron outplayed by 38 y.o Shaq :roll: :roll:

[stalkerforlife]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Lebron quit on his team and faked an elbow injury to try to deflect, he even started shooting free throws left handed...Mysteriously all x-rays and mri

[3ball]

ou call him disingenuous and you post this horse shit drivel?

Wade, when healthy, was just as good with LeBron as he was without him.

Kyrie had some of his best ever seasons WITH LeBron.

Mo Williams had his best ever season with LeBron.

Big Z had his career season with LeBron.

Kuzma and Ingram had their best seasons with LeBron.


Who cares if various guys played well with lebron - many guys DIDN'T play well with him:

DRose, Jamison, Love, Bosh, Hughes, Rodney Hood, Crowder - all disappeared next to Bron.... Even Shaq went from 18/8 in 2009 (and all-star MVP), to 12/7 with Lebron in 10'.

^^^ And that's the point - many guys didn't play well with him...

The reality is that only shooters can excel next to Lebron's skillset, which puts a ceiling on his teams and brand of ball (3/9), and makes guys not want to play with him (they fear becoming spot-up shooter)






As for Bosh, he went from being the #1 option and averaging 20/9/2/1 on 49% to 17/7/2/1 on 51% as the #3 option in 3 fewer minutes per game as well.


Numerous teams throughout history had 3 guys averaging 20 ppg - i.e. KD didn't require Klay to average below 20 ppg because KD didn't dominate the ball and take up all the ball-time

Otoh, Love and Bosh went from superstars to role players because that's the caliber of basketball that lebron-ball yields






Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5


Your stats for Pippen and Horace alongside MJ include rookie and young player stats, which you compare to their peak season without MJ - that's apples and oranges (rookie stats vs peak stats)

The point is that Pippen and Horace's PEAK numbers alongside MJ match their peak numbers without MJ (i.e. they reached full capacity next to MJ), while Lebron's teammates didn't get anywhere near their peak alongside Lebron (they played below capacity next to bron)





Not to mention the fact that LeBron faced better competition in his last 3 Finals, than Jordan ever did in his entire career.


His recent Finals have been 3-star vs. 3-star format, so of course those teams will look better than the 2-star format and teams of the 90's..

and the current league has returned to a 2-star format, so today's teams won't be as good "comp" either..

It's funny because even if you remove a couple of Lebron's Finals losses because you deem the matchup unfair, he still has 3 or 4 Finals losses.. :eek: ..

And no star player that has prime Kyrie and prime Love plus a bunch of experienced vets and great shooters can say they're overmatched, especially when the "goat" is supposed to make up small gaps and certainly never gives up 35 ppg on 56% to his matchup





Lebron is the reason why those teams under performed. Makes sense.


It's his weak shooting:

Lebron shot 36.7% on jumpshots (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) in the 2010 regular season (the year of the thread title), compared to Jordan's 50%+ during a 126 regular season stretch from 90-92' (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/91so5r/repost_from_last_year_199092_michael_jordan_shot/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body) (confirmed data)


Summary:

Lebron shot as low as 32.5% on jumpers in 2004 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season), up to 42.5% in 2013 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season), while MJ shot over 50% on jumpers in his prime, and high 40's during the 2nd three-peat (stats here (https://stats.nba.com/player/893/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)).

The jumpshooting stats matter because only great jumpshooters get double-teamed - teams meet drivers at the rim with multiple defenders, thereby not needing to get the ball out of their hands - but the only defense against a hot shooter is to get the ball out of their hands

So Lebron's lack of shooting allows opposing coaches to stay at home and lock down teammates - Stan Van Gundy said he didn't need to double lebron in the 09' ECF and that's how he shut down his teammates - so Lebron's weak shooting and lack of double-teams is a massive flaw in his game.. Similarly, the 15' Warriors doubled Lebron a paltry 5.4% (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-22-2019/6e5aBZ.gif) of possessions.
.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron Stans will try to dismiss this, while they might not of been the most talented team in the series, they still could

[AirTupac]

Did Ajay aka Pramesh attribute Ingram and Kuzma's play to LeBron? The kids who are in their 2nd/3rd year? LMFAO.

Ingram literally went on record to say he had a poor start last season because he was trying to fit in with LeBron ball and when he stopped trying so hard (after all star break) is when he broke out.

[PickernRoller]

First he was LeTravel, then he became LeQuit (around the time of OP's post), after that he became LeChoke, then LeColluder.... will end up solidly, LeFraud.

[sammichoffate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t35wK0QxIxU

[LeCramp]

You call him disingenuous and you post this horse shit drivel?

Wade, when healthy, was just as good with LeBron as he was without him.

Kyrie had some of his best ever seasons WITH LeBron.

Mo Williams had his best ever season with LeBron.

Big Z had his career season with LeBron.

Kuzma and Ingram had their best seasons with LeBron.

I could just keep going.

As for Bosh, he went from being the #1 option and averaging 20/9/2/1 on 49% to 17/7/2/1 on 51% as the #3 option in 3 fewer minutes per game as well.



If you want to talk to players marginalizing others with ZERO context, lets look your lover, shall we?

Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.


And you talk about being a coach, while displaying the basketball intelligence of an autistic chipmunk. Ignore all context of the injuries that LeBron's teammates have faced over the years and claim that LeBron is the reason why those teams under performed. Makes sense. Not to mention the fact that LeBron faced better competition in his last 3 Finals, than Jordan ever did in his entire career.

Funny, how you claim LeBron is a coward, while he's statistically one of the GOAT clutch performers and your idol, dad killer, was such a cowardly shit that he retired multiple times when he knew he was going to get humiliated. Quit the second time when Pip left, 'cause the coward knew that there was ZERO chance of him winning without Pippen (1-9).

Lets not forget his massive chokes in games 4 and 5 in '89, which conveniently get swept under the rug, "coach".

All that and nobody cares? :rolleyes: you are a sad peasant

[3ball]

Wade, when healthy, was just as good with LeBron as he was without him.

Kyrie had some of his best ever seasons WITH LeBron.

Mo Williams had his best ever season with LeBron.

Big Z had his career season with LeBron.

Kuzma and Ingram had their best seasons with LeBron.


Who cares if various guys played well with lebron - many guys DIDN'T play well with him:

DRose, Jamison, Love, Bosh, Hughes, Rodney Hood, Crowder - all disappeared next to Bron.... Even Shaq went from 18/8 in 2009 (and all-star MVP), to 12/7 with Lebron in 10'.

^^^ And that's the point - many guys didn't play well with him...

The reality is that only shooters can excel next to Lebron's skillset, which puts a ceiling on his teams and brand of ball (3/9), and makes guys not want to play with him (they fear becoming spot-up shooter)






As for Bosh, he went from being the #1 option and averaging 20/9/2/1 on 49% to 17/7/2/1 on 51% as the #3 option in 3 fewer minutes per game as well.


Numerous teams throughout history had 3 guys averaging 20 ppg - i.e. KD didn't require Klay to average below 20 ppg because KD didn't dominate the ball and take up all the ball-time

Otoh, Love and Bosh went from superstars to role players because that's the caliber of basketball that lebron-ball yields





Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5


Ron Harper was already a 7 ppg player in 1995 before MJ came back - so he's off your list

And your stats for Pippen, Horace, and BJ alongside Jordan include rookie and young player stats, which you compare to their peak season without MJ - that's apples and oranges (rookie stats vs peak stats)

The point is that their PEAK numbers alongside MJ match their peak numbers without MJ (i.e. they reached full capacity next to MJ), while Lebron's teammates didn't get anywhere near their peak alongside Lebron (they played below capacity next to bron)





Not to mention the fact that LeBron faced better competition in his last 3 Finals, than Jordan ever did in his entire career.


His recent Finals have been 3-star vs. 3-star format, so of course those teams will look better than the 2-star format and teams of the 90's..

and the current league has returned to a 2-star format, so today's teams won't be as good "comp" either..

It's funny because even if you remove a couple of Lebron's Finals losses because you deem the matchup unfair, he still has 3 or 4 Finals losses.. :eek: ..

And no star player that has prime Kyrie and prime Love plus a bunch of experienced vets and great shooters can say they're overmatched, especially when the "goat" is supposed to make up small gaps and certainly never gives up 35 ppg on 56% to his matchup





Lebron is the reason why those teams under performed. Makes sense.


It's his weak shooting:

Lebron shot 36.7% on jumpshots (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) in the 2010 regular season (the year of the thread title), compared to Jordan's 50%+ during a 126 regular season stretch from 90-92' (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/91so5r/repost_from_last_year_199092_michael_jordan_shot/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body) (confirmed data)


Summary:

Lebron shot as low as 32.5% on jumpers in 2004 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season), up to 42.5% in 2013 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season), while MJ shot over 50% on jumpers in his prime, and high 40's during the 2nd three-peat (stats here (https://stats.nba.com/player/893/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)).

The jumpshooting stats matter because only great jumpshooters get double-teamed - teams meet drivers at the rim with multiple defenders, thereby not needing to get the ball out of their hands - but the only defense against a hot shooter is to get the ball out of their hands

So Lebron's lack of shooting allows opposing coaches to stay at home and lock down teammates - Stan Van Gundy said he didn't need to double lebron in the 09' ECF and that's how he shut down his teammates - so Lebron's weak shooting and lack of double-teams is a massive flaw in his game.. Similarly, the 15' Warriors doubled Lebron a paltry 5.4% (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-22-2019/6e5aBZ.gif) of possessions.
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[Turbo Slayer]

LeBron top 5 in my book y'all haters need to appreciate greatness just daying. He is a once in a lifetime player. So just suck it up. Period.:facepalm

[aj1987]

Who cares if various guys played well with lebron - many guys DIDN'T play well with him:

DRose, Jamison, Love, Bosh, Hughes, Rodney Hood, Crowder - all disappeared next to Bron.... Even Shaq went from 18/8 in 2009 (and all-star MVP), to 12/7 with Lebron in 10'.

^^^ And that's the point - many guys didn't play well with him...

The reality is that only shooters can excel next to Lebron's skillset, which puts a ceiling on his teams and brand of ball (3/9), and makes guys not want to play with him (they fear becoming spot-up shooter)




Numerous teams throughout history had 3 guys averaging 20 ppg - i.e. KD didn't require Klay to average below 20 ppg because KD didn't dominate the ball and take up all the ball-time

Otoh, Love and Bosh went from superstars to role players because that's the caliber of basketball that lebron-ball yields



Ron Harper was already a 7 ppg player in 1995 before MJ came back - so he's off your list

And your stats for Pippen, Horace, and BJ alongside Jordan include rookie and young player stats, which you compare to their peak season without MJ - that's apples and oranges (rookie stats vs peak stats)

The point is that their PEAK numbers alongside MJ match their peak numbers without MJ (i.e. they reached full capacity next to MJ), while Lebron's teammates didn't get anywhere near their peak alongside Lebron (they played below capacity next to bron)



His recent Finals have been 3-star vs. 3-star format, so of course those teams will look better than the 2-star format and teams of the 90's..

and the current league has returned to a 2-star format, so today's teams won't be as good "comp" either..

It's funny because even if you remove a couple of Lebron's Finals losses because you deem the matchup unfair, he still has 3 or 4 Finals losses.. :eek: ..

And no star player that has prime Kyrie and prime Love plus a bunch of experienced vets and great shooters can say they're overmatched, especially when the "goat" is supposed to make up small gaps and certainly never gives up 35 ppg on 56% to his matchup



It's his weak shooting:

Lebron shot 36.7% on jumpshots (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) in the 2010 regular season (the year of the thread title), compared to Jordan's 50%+ during a 126 regular season stretch from 90-92' (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/91so5r/repost_from_last_year_199092_michael_jordan_shot/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body) (confirmed data)


Summary:

Lebron shot as low as 32.5% on jumpers in 2004 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season), up to 42.5% in 2013 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season), while MJ shot over 50% on jumpers in his prime, and high 40's during the 2nd three-peat (stats here (https://stats.nba.com/player/893/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)).

The jumpshooting stats matter because only great jumpshooters get double-teamed - teams meet drivers at the rim with multiple defenders, thereby not needing to get the ball out of their hands - but the only defense against a hot shooter is to get the ball out of their hands

So Lebron's lack of shooting allows opposing coaches to stay at home and lock down teammates - Stan Van Gundy said he didn't need to double lebron in the 09' ECF and that's how he shut down his teammates - so Lebron's weak shooting and lack of double-teams is a massive flaw in his game.. Similarly, the 15' Warriors doubled Lebron a paltry 5.4% (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-22-2019/6e5aBZ.gif) of possessions.
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You call him disingenuous and you post this horse shit drivel?

Wade, when healthy, was just as good with LeBron as he was without him.

Kyrie had some of his best ever seasons WITH LeBron.

Mo Williams had his best ever season with LeBron.

Big Z had his career season with LeBron.

Kuzma and Ingram had their best seasons with LeBron.

I could just keep going.

As for Bosh, he went from being the #1 option and averaging 20/9/2/1 on 49% to 17/7/2/1 on 51% as the #3 option in 3 fewer minutes per game as well.



If you want to talk to players marginalizing others with ZERO context, lets look your lover, shall we?

Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.


And you talk about being a coach, while displaying the basketball intelligence of an autistic chipmunk. Ignore all context of the injuries that LeBron's teammates have faced over the years and claim that LeBron is the reason why those teams under performed. Makes sense. Not to mention the fact that LeBron faced better competition in his last 3 Finals, than Jordan ever did in his entire career.

Funny, how you claim LeBron is a coward, while he's statistically one of the GOAT clutch performers and your idol, dad killer, was such a cowardly shit that he retired multiple times when he knew he was going to get humiliated. Quit the second time when Pip left, 'cause the coward knew that there was ZERO chance of him winning without Pippen (1-9).

Lets not forget his massive chokes in games 4 and 5 in '89, which conveniently get swept under the rug, "coach".


All that and nobody cares? :rolleyes: you are a sad peasant
You cared enough to reply to my post, you ****ing retard. :oldlol:

[sportjames23]

Always someone seething over 3/9....:roll:

:lol :lol :lol

[STATUTORY]

in 2009 he managed to lose to a team led by Dwight Howard of all people as the number 1 seed and overwhelming favorite

:roll: guy is a flat out CLOWN

[warriorfan]

in 2009 he managed to lose to a team led by Dwight Howard of all people as the number 1 seed and overwhelming favorite

:roll: guy is a flat out CLOWN

While Orlando was missing their second best player, All Star Jameer Nelson.