Lebron only won 2 series while averaging 35+ - he can't beat teams with scoring

[3ball]

if he could beat you with scoring, then Stan Van Gundy's no double-team strategy would've fail

but apparently he's not beating you with scoring and never has - he has 2 series wins while averaging 35+, which were both meaningless, 1st/2nd round blowouts

[BigKobeFan]

That is why he was a 2nd option in miami and needed a 27 pt scorer in cleveland

[RRR3]

Shut the hell up samuraiswish

[Manny98]

Still 2 more than Jordan won without Pippen :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

Care to list who else has won 2 or more series averaging 35+?

[3ball]

Care to list who else has won 2 or more series averaging 35+?
MJ probably has at least 10 or 20

He has at least 4 wins averaging 40+, including the Finals

[StrongLurk]

OP is like Jordan with scoring titles every year.

Except he is on ISH and replaces scoring titles with meltdown titles.

[LoneyROY7]

MJ never faced the pressure of a game 7 in an NBA Finals.

What a MASSIVE black mark on his resume.

[SouBeachTalents]

MJ probably has at least 10 or 20

He has at least 4 wins averaging 40+, including the Finals
The fact you only call LeBron out on it though and not the likes of Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Kobe etc only further establishes how much of a threat you see him as. You hold him to a standard that's beyond even the other top 10 ATG's, which like I've said before, is the greatest compliment you can pay to him :lol

[3ball]

OP is like Jordan with scoring titles every year.

Except he is on ISH and replaces scoring titles with meltdown titles.
you keep saying that if Lebron got doubled, he would effectively pass and destroy it - but he doesn't get doubled because he can't beat you with scoring, and therefore can be defeated with straight up defense like SVG and others have done

And obviously, the strategy against lebron (straight up defense) is simpler than the strategy needed against mj (doubles-teams and also off-ball defense, i.e. shading/doubling on screens, pindowns, etc)

Finally, double teams allow a team to swing the ball and scramble the defense - since double teams spur ball movement, the lebron's inability garner double teams is a primary reason his teams have non-championship ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player).

[StrongLurk]

you keep saying that if Lebron got doubled, he would effectively pass and destroy it - but he doesn't get doubled because he can't beat you with scoring, and therefore can be defeated with straight up defense like SVG and others have done

And obviously, the strategy against lebron (straight up defense) is simpler than the strategy needed against mj (doubles-teams and also off-ball defense, i.e. shading/doubling on screens, pindowns, etc)

Finally, double teams allow a team to swing the ball and scramble the defense - since double teams spur ball movement, the lebron's inability garner double teams is a primary reason his teams have non-championship ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player).

OP is like Jordan with scoring titles every year.

Except he is on ISH and replaces scoring titles with meltdown titles.

[3ball]

MJ never faced the pressure of a game 7 in an NBA Finals.

What a MASSIVE black mark on his resume.
If Lebron had a bunch of series victories averaging 35+, he'd be a different caliber scorer and SVG wouldn't have said they employed a no-double-team strategy against him because he doesn't punish enough as a scorer

Only mj won a bunch of series averaging 35+... And he won averaging 11 apg too, which lebron never did

[3ball]

The fact you only call LeBron out on it though and not the likes of Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Kobe etc only further establishes how much of a threat you see him as. You hold him to a standard that's beyond even the other top 10 ATG's, which like I've said before, is the greatest compliment you can pay to him :lol
Those guys aren't compared to MJ, and I'm showing that lebron is like them - he shouldn't be compared to mj either..

[bigkingsfan]

How many playoff wins without Pippen.

[3ball]

How many playoff wins without Pippen.
You realize that when Lebron won his first playoff games in 2006, he had the East all-star center from 2005 on his team (Zydrunas was 2-time all-star in 03' and 05')

MJ didn't have any all-star teammates until his 6th season (1990)

In addition to the all-star center, Lebron also had the 2005 1st team defender and steals champ Larry Hughes

So lebron had an all-star center and perimeter defender sidekick, while MJ had nothing, even after he got Pippen in 88' and 89'

Finally, Lebron added all-star Mo Williams, all-defender Varejao, 2-time all-star Jamison, and 09' all-star MVP shaq to garner the 1 seed in a weak conference... That's way more help then MJ had thru 1989

[sdot_thadon]

I'm fairly certain he turned enough of his potential fga into assists that it's really not an issue Op.:rolleyes:

[Mr Feeny]

I'm fairly certain he turned enough of his potential fga into assists that it's really not an issue Op.:rolleyes:

What does that have to do with his point?

[bigkingsfan]

You realize that when Lebron won his first playoff games in 2006, he had the East all-star center from 2005 on his team (Zydrunas was 2-time all-star in 03' and 05')

MJ didn't have any all-star teammates until his 6th season (1990)

In addition to the all-star center, Lebron also had the 2005 1st team defender and steals champ Larry Hughes

So lebron had an all-star center and perimeter defender sidekick, while MJ had nothing, even after he got Pippen in 88' and 89'

Finally, Lebron added all-star Mo Williams, all-defender Varejao, 2-time all-star Jamison, and 09' all-star MVP shaq to garner the 1 seed in a weak conference... That's way more help then MJ had thru 1989
Ordan had Woolridge, 23 ppg on 55%.
That shits on any help Lebron had in Cleveland, points and efficiency are the most important things rigghhht?

[Ainosterhaspie]

Why does OP keep making the exact same thread?

[sdot_thadon]

What does that have to do with his point?
Here's this guy again requiring way too much explanation for a basic idea.

Mj shoots more.
Lebron shoots less.
Lebron usually has more assists/points created from assists.
Mj doesn't choose to pass as much, creates those for himself.

2 different playstyles.
Hope that helps.

[Mr Feeny]

Here's this guy again requiring way too much explanation for a basic idea.

Mj shoots more.
Lebron shoots less.
Lebron usually has more assists/points created from assists.
Mj doesn't choose to pass as much, creates those for himself.

2 different playstyles.
Hope that helps.

You seem confused. He's saying that Lebron isn't as good as scorer as most all time greats and therefore when played straight up and can't be effective enough with his scoring to punish his opponents.

It's the reason Lebron choked 2009 and 2010 back to back and then choked 2015.

[3ball]

Ordan had Woolridge, 23 ppg on 55%.
That shits on any help Lebron had in Cleveland, points and efficiency are the most important things rigghhht?
Woolridge was nowhere near a top 3 player at his position in the conference (all-star), whereas Zydrunas was

Woolridge also wasn't the best defender at his position (1st team all-D), but Hughes was

And MJ wasn't playing the 40-win Wizards.. he was playing the goat Celtics

[Mr Feeny]

Ordan had Woolridge, 23 ppg on 55%.
That shits on any help Lebron had in Cleveland, points and efficiency are the most important things rigghhht?

Yeah this is just dumb. Z was heads and shoulder better than anyone on Jordan' late 80s teams.

[bigkingsfan]

Woolridge was nowhere near a top 3 player at his position in the conference (all-star), whereas Zydrunas was

Woolridge also wasn't the best defender at his position (1st team all-D), but Hughes was

And MJ wasn't playing the 40-win Wizards.. he was playing the goat Celtics
What happened to points? This is your gauge when determining players. Move that goalpost babyboi.

[Ainosterhaspie]

You seem confused. He's saying that Lebron isn't as good as scorer as most all time greats and therefore when played straight up and can't be effective enough with his scoring to punish his opponents.

It's the reason Lebron choked 2009 and 2010 back to back and then choked 2015.
Only most ATGs weren't winning scoring 35ppg. That's more the exception than the rule. The whole premise implodes because there's a much stronger trend of teams winning when the main guy scores less than 35 ppg.

[Mr Feeny]

Only most ATGs weren't winning scoring 35ppg. That's more the exception than the rule. The whole premise implodes because there's a much stronger trend of teams winning when the main guy scores less than 35 ppg.

Jordan did. Shaq did. A lot of all time greats did. Lebron couldn't. That's his entire point

[sdot_thadon]

You seem confused. He's saying that Lebron isn't as good as scorer as most all time greats and therefore when played straight up and can't be effective enough with his scoring to punish his opponents.

It's the reason Lebron choked 2009 and 2010 back to back and then choked 2015.
He's an idiot, that much has been established long ago. If I remember correctly just a couple of years ago lebron had a finals run where he averaged 34 the whole run. So he was 1 point of an arbitrary amount, wow. How many more fga a game does Mj average in these runs, or just period? The teams would rather play him straight up because his teams destroy the other team when he can get all his guys going. 2 different play styles. 2 different approaches to beating said style. There's more than one way to skin a cat grasshopper.

[Mr Feeny]

He's an idiot, that much has been established long ago. If I remember correctly just a couple of years ago lebron had a finals run where he averaged 34 the whole run. So he was 1 point of an arbitrary amount, wow. How many more fga a game does Mj average in these runs, or just period? The teams would rather play him straight up because his teams destroy the other team when he can get all his guys going. 2 different play styles. 2 different approaches to beating said style. There's more than one way to skin a cat grasshopper.

You might think it's pedantic and it may be so. But you still havent proven him wrong. Calling him an 'idiot" isn't an argument.

As far as you 2nd point goes, it's the other way around. Teams would play him straight up because he's not good enough to punish them. Which is why Lebron lost as a top seed 2 consecutive years, before the biggest collapse in NBA history. Another case entirely.

[sdot_thadon]

You might think it's pedantic and it may be so. But you still havent proven him wrong. Calling him an 'idiot" isn't an argument.

As far as you 2nd point goes, it's the other way around. Teams would play him straight up because he's not good enough to punish them. Which is why Lebron lost as a top seed 2 consecutive years, before the biggest collapse in NBA history. Another case entirely.
half full, half empty. You've already got your mind made up.:cheers:

[Mr Feeny]

half full, half empty. You've already got your mind made up.:cheers:

It seems to me that you. If you'd like to see that as a plus for your hero, by all means, go ahead. We're good.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan did. Shaq did. A lot of all time greats did. Lebron couldn't. That's his entire point
Factually untrue. Like LeBron, Shaq & Hakeem did it twice, Bird & Kobe once, while Duncan & Magic never did

[Mr Feeny]

Factually untrue. Like LeBron, Shaq & Hakeem did it twice 2, Bird & Kobe once, while Duncan & Magic never did

Didn't Google it. Not my stats. I assumed OP had them right.

[SouBeachTalents]

Didn't Google it. Not my stats. I assumed OP had them right.
Never assume that, 3ball consistently lies or gives wrong information

[sdot_thadon]

Factually untrue. Like LeBron, Shaq & Hakeem did it twice, Bird & Kobe once, while Duncan & Magic never did
:oldlol:

[Mr Feeny]

Never assume that, 3ball consistently lies or gives wrong information
Well. 3 ball? Any....rebuttle?

[Ainosterhaspie]

Jordan did. Shaq did. A lot of all time greats did. Lebron couldn't. That's his entire point
Shaq never averaged 35 ppg for a whole playoffs. His highest average was 30.7. That was in 2000. He only exceeded 30ppg in one series that post season, the finals where he scored 38ppg, less than LeBron's 38.5 in the Magic series which is being used as the basis for this claim. Shaq never hit 35ppg for a series in 2001. He did it one time in 2002 and the rest of the series he was under 30ppg. So no Shaq doesn't support the contention that LeBron doesn't score enough to win.

Look at other top ten guys: Kareem, Duncan, Russell, Wilt, Olijuan, Bird, Magic. None of them were winning by regularly scoring over 35ppg in series. Well Wilt did, but he's known for always losing to Russell despite being a much bigger scoring threat.

Want to call Kobe a top ten guy? He never averaged 35 ppg in 2010. Same in 2009. Same in 2002. Same in 2000. In 2001 he averaged 35 ppg only only series. So for his whole career, he only hit that 35 ppg in one series in a year where he won a title.

So if 35 ppg is so rarely a winning formula, why is LeBron being faulted for not playing that way? It seems there is a serious lack of understanding of basketball history and far too narrow a focus on comparing the styles of two players. The argument really at its core is "LeBron doesn't play like Jordan therefore he's not as great as Jordan". That's a bad argument.

[Mr Feeny]

Shaq never averaged 35 ppg for a whole playoffs. His highest average was 30.7. That was in 2000. He only exceeded 30ppg in one series that post season, the finals where he scored 38ppg, less than LeBron's 38.5 in the Magic series which is being used as the basis for this claim. Shaq never hit 35ppg for a series in 2001. He did it one time in 2002 and the rest of the series he was under 30ppg. So no Shaq doesn't support the contention that LeBron doesn't score enough to win.

Look at other top ten guys: Kareem, Duncan, Russell, Wilt, Olijuan, Bird, Magic. None of them were winning by regularly scoring over 35ppg in series. Well Wilt did, but he's known for always losing to Russell despite being a much bigger scoring threat.

Want to call Kobe a top ten guy? He never averaged 35 ppg in 2010. Same in 2009. Same in 2002. Same in 2000. In 2001 he averaged 35 ppg only only series. So for his whole career, he only hit that 35 ppg in one series in a year where he won a title.

So if 35 ppg is so rarely a winning formula, why is LeBron being faulted for not playing that way? It seems there is a serious lack of understanding of basketball history and far too narrow a focus on comparing the styles of two players. The argument really at its core is "LeBron doesn't play like Jordan therefore he's not as great as Jordan". That's a bad argument.

This is a straw man. That isnt what the OP said and it certainly wasnt my argument.. nobody is talking about averaging 35 for a playoff run.

As far as Shaq averaging 35+and winning, he did that on the biggest stage of all - the NBA finals.

[Ainosterhaspie]

This is a straw man. That isnt what the OP said and it certainly wasnt my argument.. nobody is talking about averaging 35 for a playoff run.

As far as Shaq averaging 35+and winning, he did that on the biggest stage of all - the NBA finals.
It isn't a straw man. The basic premise is that if you scoring more than 35 it's some sort of barometer for success. Yet if you look at what most of the greats did, they're usually scoring less than 35. In fact going back to 84, only five champions had their leading scorer hit 35ppg in the finals. One of them was Durant in 2017 who was not getting double teamed so that doesn't support this "score a bunch, force double teams, win" theory.

But the bigger issue is that most of these guys are scoring less than LeBron. The only all time great who averages more PPG than LeBron in the playoffs is Jordan. That's it. So how are these other guys forcing doubles while LeBron isn't because they are bigger threats to score even though they don't score as much? That don't make no sense.

SVG can say or imply that LeBron can't score enough to win, but then that means no other ATG can either except Jordan because they all fall behind Lebron in that area.

[StrongLurk]

This is a straw man. That isnt what the OP said and it certainly wasnt my argument.. nobody is talking about averaging 35 for a playoff run.

As far as Shaq averaging 35+and winning, he did that on the biggest stage of all - the NBA finals.

The problem with OP is that he is ALWAYS and ONLY talking about Lebron in the most absurd fashion, not other players.

OPs posts are usually not even about if MJ is better than Lebron...they are mostly about trolling Lebron 24/7 and ignoring basically every other bball player that ever played.

If you think OP is simply arguing MJ > Lebron, then you are wrong.

[Wally450]

Shogon, can you make the picture of all the threads 3ball has started about LeBron? I believe you did it with another poster as well. I think it was you at least...

:cheers:

[SouBeachTalents]

Shogon, can you make the picture of all the threads 3ball has started about LeBron? I believe you did it with another poster as well. I think it was you at least...

:cheers:
I’d legit put the over/under of LeBron threads made by 3ball at 250

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]I

[sdot_thadon]

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]I

[3ball]

He's an idiot, that much has been established long ago. If I remember correctly just a couple of years ago lebron had a finals run where he averaged 34 the whole run. So he was 1 point of an arbitrary amount, wow. How many more fga a game does Mj average in these runs, or just period? The teams would rather play him straight up because his teams destroy the other team when he can get all his guys going. 2 different play styles. 2 different approaches to beating said style. There's more than one way to skin a cat grasshopper.


^^^ the bolded is one of the most-repeated fallacies by fans/media - this assumption that teams are only hurt by doubling lebron, or otherwise 'good' passers...

Double-teams create a 4-on-3 off-the-ball... Virtually ANY player that gets doubled can hurt the defense just by giving it up and having a 4-on-3 advantage - the ball normally swings around and the defense is scrambling to recover.. Defenses do NOT want to scramble like this against any player, not just Lebron..

Since we know that doubles-teams allow potential ball movement and a scrambling defense regardless of who is doubled, we know that SVG wasn't worried about Lebron's passing as much as he was exploiting him as a non-pure scorer (like he said he was).

And you say there's more than one way to skin a cat - but teams would much prefer to play everyone straight up.. Straight-up defense means less scrambling and wear and tear defensively, which allows more juice for offense (ask the 14' Spurs, 09' Magic, or the Warriors)... meanwhile, Lebron's team is the one getting worn down by ball movement, which makes their no-double-team offense even more sluggish and easy to defend

Btw, mj shoots more because he often beats teams by scoring, which lebron can't do (can't force doubles)... MJ's efficiency and success while scoring a lot (and lebron's losses when scoring a lot) demonstrates that MJ's style is more optimal for a team and impacts/scrambles a defense more
.

[Ainosterhaspie]

^^^ the bolded is one of the most-repeated fallacies by fans/media - this assumption that teams are only hurt by doubling lebron, or otherwise 'good' passers...

Double-teams create a 4-on-3 off-the-ball... Virtually ANY player that gets doubled can hurt the defense just by giving it up and having a 4-on-3 advantage - the ball normally swings around and the defense is scrambling to recover.. Defenses do NOT want to scramble like this against any player, not just Lebron..

Since we know that doubles-teams allow potential ball movement and a scrambling defense regardless of who is doubled, we know that SVG wasn't worried about Lebron's passing as much as he was exploiting him as a non-pure scorer (like he said he was).

And you say there's more than one way to skin a cat - but teams would much prefer to play everyone straight up.. Straight-up defense means less scrambling and wear and tear defensively, which allows more juice for offense (ask the 14' Spurs, 09' Magic, or the Warriors)... meanwhile, Lebron's team is the one getting worn down by ball movement, which makes their no-double-team offense even more sluggish and easy to defend

Btw, mj shoots more because he often beats teams by scoring, which lebron can't do (can't force doubles)... MJ's efficiency and success while scoring a lot (and lebron's losses when scoring a lot) demonstrates that MJ's style is more optimal for a team and impacts/scrambles a defense more
.
No not everyone is equally as good at punishing doubles. The timing of when to make the pass, the ability put it in just the right spot, having the right touch on the pass, having a physique (height, length) all come together to make guys more or less effective passing, not to mention a willingness to pass. And that's leaving out skill at looking off other defenders to make the pass even more open.

Small guys can be easier to trap and force into less dangerous passes. It's harder for them to make good crosscourt passes over long defenders.

[3ball]

No not everyone is equally as good at punishing doubles. The timing of when to make the pass, the ability put it in just the right spot, having the right touch on the pass, having a physique (height, length) all come together to make guys more or less effective passing, not to mention a willingness to pass. And that's leaving out skill at looking off other defenders to make the pass even more open.

Small guys can be easier to trap and force into less dangerous passes. It's harder for them to make good crosscourt passes over long defenders.
Double-teams create a 4-on-3 off-the-ball... Virtually ANY player that gets doubled can hurt the defense just by giving it up and having a 4-on-3 advantage - the ball normally swings around and the defense is scrambling to recover.. Defenses don't want to scramble like this against any player, not just Lebron..

Since doubles-teams allow potential ball movement and a scrambling defense regardless of who is doubled, we know that SVG wasn't worried about Lebron's passing as much as he was exploiting him as a non-pure scorer (like SVG said).

Ultimately, teams prefer to play everyone straight up.. Straight-up defense means less scrambling and wear and tear defensively, which allows more juice for offense (ask the 14' Spurs, 09' Magic, or the Warriors)... meanwhile, Lebron's team is the one getting worn down by ball movement, which makes their no-double-team offense even more sluggish and easy to defend

[Uncle Drew]

What happened to points? This is your gauge when determining players. Move that goalpost babyboi.
3ball writing epistels but casually ignoring this post where he got called out for his bs, magnificent. :roll:

[Ainosterhaspie]

Double-teams create a 4-on-3 off-the-ball... Virtually ANY player that gets doubled can hurt the defense just by giving it up and having a 4-on-3 advantage This isn't true. Do you even watch basketball? Don't answer, everyone knows you don't. Just randomly throwing the ball out of a double doesn't immediately compromise the defense. You have to get it to someone fast enough (or the other team has time to recover), accurately enough (or the other team has time to recover), and often with the right touch (too fast or too slow and the pass is missed or the teammate can't handle it). On top of all that you have to get it past the guys double teaming instead of a bailout pass deep behind the line where guys have time to recover. Or you may need to send the pass over the defenders and guys lacking length/height can struggle there. You also need to be willing to make the pass and some guys just want to jack up low percentage shots over tight double teans instead of actually exploiting the 4 on 3.

Since doubles-teams allow potential ball movement and a scrambling defense regardless of who is doubled, we know that SVG wasn't worried about Lebron's passing as much as he was exploiting him as a non-pure scorer (like SVG said).
Everybody except MJ is a pure non scorer then since no one but MJ regularly scored more than LeBron did that series and few even occasionally scored that much. I know, I know, those other guys would have scored more than LeBron even though they never did because of double teams. Imagined scoring means more than actual scoring.

[Jameerthefear]

1-9 w/o Pippen

[3ball]

This isn't true. Do you even watch basketball? Don't answer, everyone knows you don't. Just randomly throwing the ball out of a double doesn't immediately compromise the defense. You have to get it to someone fast enough (or the other team has time to recover), accurately enough (or the other team has time to recover), and often with the right touch (too fast or too slow and the pass is missed or the teammate can't handle it). On top of all that you have to get it past the guys double teaming instead of a bailout pass deep behind the line where guys have time to recover. Or you may need to send the pass over the defenders and guys lacking length/height can struggle there. You also need to be willing to make the pass and some guys just want to jack up low percentage shots over tight double teans instead of actually exploiting the 4 on 3.


Yeah it does.. the defense can recover but that's the point - they have to recover.. a straight-up defense doesn't have a such a problem, so teams prefer to do that when possible





Everybody except MJ is a pure non scorer then since no one but MJ regularly scored more than LeBron did that series and few even occasionally scored that much. I know, I know, those other guys would have scored more than LeBron even though they never did because of double teams. Imagined scoring means more than actual scoring.


The 35+ cutoff is to demonstrate the gap between lebron and MJ - MJ beat teams with scoring, and lebron couldn't (because he couldn't get doubled)

But the 35+ cutoff isn't what determined if someone gets doubled.. the reality is that teams can meet a penetrator at the rim with multiple bodies, but are helpless against a hot shooter, except to get the ball out of their hands (double-team)

In other words, double-teaming is all you can do against a hot shooter (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird), so shooters are the guys that get doubled
.
Sorry, but lebron isn't a knock-down, quick-hitter, pure shooter - he doesn't catch fire and won't bury a team with a barrage of jumpers night-in-night-out - so he doesn't get doubled... ultimately, his lack of quick-hitter, pure shooting and high ball-dominance is why his offense is suboptimal, and anytime you get a shit ton of it (35+), his teams lose the series..

Btw, lebron only shot 25 times per game in the 09 ECF - that's another reason lebron wasn't doubled - his passivity makes him rarely a threat for a big game, so he doesn't need to be doubled (see his passive 17 fga in 14' Finals)..
.

[red1]

OP is a textbook homosexual no disrespect to any homosexuals that aren't complete raging ******s like OP.

[stalkerforlife]

OP is just too intellectually gifted.

And it helps that arguing against Jordan is impossible.

OP has destroyed everyone in his path.

[sdot_thadon]

^^^ the bolded is one of the most-repeated fallacies by fans/media - this assumption that teams are only hurt by doubling lebron, or otherwise 'good' passers...

Double-teams create a 4-on-3 off-the-ball... Virtually ANY player that gets doubled can hurt the defense just by giving it up and having a 4-on-3 advantage - the ball normally swings around and the defense is scrambling to recover.. Defenses do NOT want to scramble like this against any player, not just Lebron..

Since we know that doubles-teams allow potential ball movement and a scrambling defense regardless of who is doubled, we know that SVG wasn't worried about Lebron's passing as much as he was exploiting him as a non-pure scorer (like he said he was).

And you say there's more than one way to skin a cat - but teams would much prefer to play everyone straight up.. Straight-up defense means less scrambling and wear and tear defensively, which allows more juice for offense (ask the 14' Spurs, 09' Magic, or the Warriors)... meanwhile, Lebron's team is the one getting worn down by ball movement, which makes their no-double-team offense even more sluggish and easy to defend

Btw, mj shoots more because he often beats teams by scoring, which lebron can't do (can't force doubles)... MJ's efficiency and success while scoring a lot (and lebron's losses when scoring a lot) demonstrates that MJ's style is more optimal for a team and impacts/scrambles a defense more
.
I'm surprised you chose this post to reply to, you've got bigger problems in the thread atm.


Factually untrue. Like LeBron, Shaq & Hakeem did it twice, Bird & Kobe once, while Duncan & Magic never did

???

And to respond to your post above.....are you kidding me? If any player could impact the game the same way passing out of a double then any scorer can impact the game the same way scoring a bucket, ie: nobody is special. That's not too bright fella. The reason Lebron's passing is dangerous is because he's a great passer. When it's said that he "picks apart" a defense, you assume it's because he's an average level passer? Just as Mj is a different tier of scorer Lebron is a different tier of passer.


I'd love to hear your response to SouBeachTalent's post above......

[3ball]

And to respond to your post above.....are you kidding me? If any player could impact the game the same way by passing out of a double then any scorer can impact the game the same way scoring a bucket, ie: nobody is special. That's not too bright fella. The reason Lebron's passing is dangerous is because he's a great passer. When it's said that he "picks apart" a defense, you assume it's because he's an average level passer? Just as Mj is a different tier of scorer Lebron is a different tier of passer.


But lebron isn't passing out of doubles - that's the point - so a lesser passer that gets doubled can exceed the passing lebron does vs straight-up defenses

So Lebron's "next-level" passing is negated compared to other players that command double teams to spur ball movement (Curry, MJ, Kobe, etc)

If Lebron could shoot/score and command doubles like MJ, then he would match MJ's at MJ's strength.. Otoh, MJ matched lebron at assists - he averaged the same assists as Lebron through 3 rings (34/7/7 in 85-93 PO), so he had the best of both worlds - elite PG-level passing like lebron, plus the pure scorer double-team-passing and ball movement like Curry or Kobe.. the perfect player






I'd love to hear your response to SouBeachTalent's post above.....

.

sound like he misinterpreted or misread the OP and thought I said that only mj won series while averaging 35+

The op says otherwise, and I'm actually just pointing out the gap between MJ and everyone else regarding winning with really high scoring - no one is close to mj at winning with scoring or high scoring

MJ forced doubles every game, while guys like Lebron were often exploited for their weaker scoring/shooting by getting played straight up.

It's a contrast between mj and lebron primarily, since the other guys that southbeach listed were often doubled like MJ - southbeach's list actually makes my point, since lebron is the only guy on there that is rountinely not doubled - that's because he's the only non-pure-shooter/scorer or dominant big.

[ClipperRevival]

MJ probably has at least 10 or 20

He has at least 4 wins averaging 40+, including the Finals

I know you love doing MJ research so what is the total? I know he was just toying with the Cavs and 76ers early in his career. It's got to be up there. I mean dude averaged 33.4 ppg in 179 playoff games. Just unreal. Like video game sh*t.

[ClipperRevival]

Did the research myself. So MJ won 11 playoff series averaging 35+ PPG and 4 averaging 40+ PPG. He also had 2 where he was like at 34.8 and 39.8 so if you round those off, it is 12/5.

Also had 1 finals at 35+ (1992) and 1 40+ (1993).

I don't think anyone in history even comes CLOSE. Further evidence that MJ is really the only guy who can dominate your scoring and still play championship caliber ball. Anyone else who scores that much becomes a black hole. Not MJ cause he could play off ball, catch & shoot, slash, etc. A lot of greats don't have the ball, they just watch and hurt your offense. MJ was always engaged on or off ball.

[ClipperRevival]

LOL, Wilt only has 3 35+ games with no 40+. What a choker. All those regular season records but chokes when it matters most.

[3ball]

Did the research myself. So MJ won 11 playoff series averaging 35+ PPG and 4 averaging 40+ PPG. He also had 2 where he was like at 34.8 and 39.8 so if you round those off, it is 12/5.

Also had 1 finals at 35+ (1992) and 1 40+ (1993).

I don't think anyone in history even comes CLOSE. Further evidence that MJ is really the only guy who can dominate your scoring and still play championship caliber ball. Anyone else who scores that much becomes a black hole. Not MJ cause he could play off ball, catch & shoot, slash, etc. A lot of greats don't have the ball, they just watch and hurt your offense. MJ was always engaged on or off ball.


Exactly

And that's why lebron can't beat teams with scoring - when he scores a lot, it's one long dribble foray after another, which defenses like and get good at defending on the championship level

So lebron must pass to others to win... Lolol

[NBAGOAT]

Why do you have to beat someone by scoring? Outdated view of the game. So Steve Nash isn

[3ball]

Why do you have to beat someone by scoring?


Because that's how the game works - the team who scores more wins, not the team with the most assists or rebounds

Scoring is the most direct way to win - do it yourself - don't be scared and rely on lesser teammates...

By relying on teammates to win, lebron shows fear - this rubs off on teammates and they brick it

Otoh, MJ's fearlessness was contagious, so teammates made the shot every single time in the playoffs when MJ gave it up on the last play - they sought their "Jordan moment", whereas the "lebron" moment is a choke, so his teammates brick it

[3ball]

All 35 points aren't the same

Too many long dribbles when he scores 35+, so he always loses against good teams when he averages 35+

if he could beat you with scoring, then Stan Van Gundy's no double-team strategy would've fail.. but SVG said they wanted lebron to "dribble and get stats" aka exploited

Exploited for long dribbles/predictable team offense and not having a jumper that gets hot/requires getting ball out of hands

[Smoke117]

Yeah, he's only 5th all time in ppg for the playoffs and 2-5 are separated by less than a point, but okay.

[3ball]

Yeah, he's only 5th all time in ppg



Exactly - all those seasons, Finals chances, all-star teammates and points, yet only 3 rings

because not all points are the same.. 35 achieved via long dribbles wins less than off-ball 35... Long-dribble 35 can't beat #4 SRS Dwight, whereas off-ball 35 beats #1 SRS in 89'.






and 2-5 are separated by less than a point, but okay.



Exactly, the playoff ppg 2-10 rankings see #2 thru 10 bunched up around 26-29, while the goat stands alone at 33.5... a greater gap between 1 and 2 than 2-10

[red1]

OP your main argument was proven false. stop peddling your shitty theories.


you said lebron couldnt win as the first option. too ball-dominant.


won with kyrie.


case. closed.



now shut the **** up before we start using your logic to trash your idol - who according your logic never won without a so-called stacked team, and never won without playing so-called inferior competition.

[red1]

OP said for years that lebron cant win without a stacked team (2012) without ray allen (2013) and then now he's added kyrie to the ol' excuse deck. :oldlol:



what happened dude? I thought the style was too baldominant to ever win? let alone beat a 73-win team. :roll:

[3ball]

OP your main argument was proven false. stop peddling your shitty theories.


you said lebron couldnt win as the first option. too ball-dominant.


won with kyrie.


case. closed.



now shut the **** up before we start using your logic to trash your idol - who according your logic never won without a so-called stacked team, and never won without playing so-called inferior competition.
Lebron has weaker stats and his ball-dominant skillset yields lower team ceilings and therefore lower championship odds than MJ.. Finals record = team ceiling and Lebron has the worst Finals record in 3-pointer basketball.

Lesser stats + lesser team ceiling = inferior ball player

[3ball]

OP said for years that lebron cant win without a stacked team (2012) without ray allen (2013) and then now he's added kyrie to the ol' excuse deck. :oldlol:



what happened dude? I thought the style was too baldominant to ever win? let alone beat a 73-win team. :roll:


Lebron is a suboptimal/ball-dominant scorer and weaker iso or clutch player so he needs more scoring help


Playoffs

Kyrie 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_per_game)...... 23.9 ppg.. 57.3 ts.. 41% threes.. 89% ft.. 2.5 tov.. 23.0 PER.. 0.181 ws/48.. 3.6 obpm
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_per_game)... 19.8 ppg.. 52.4 ts.. 28% threes.. 72% ft.. 3.1 tov.. 19.7 PER.. 0.157 ws/48.. 3.1 obpm

Kyrie 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_advanced)...... outplayed league mvp.. hit Finals-winning shot.. 28 ppg career Finals avg
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_advanced)... outplayed by schrempf.. no winning shots...... 18 ppg career Finals avg


Ultimately, the Bulls would've been much better on both sides of the ball with Kyrie replacing Pippen - they'd have better offense because of Kyrie, and better defense because the team can pursue cheaper defenders and hustle guys versus needing expensive scorers and shooters like Pippen's weaker offense requires.

[red1]

Lebron is a suboptimal/ball-dominant scorer and weaker iso or clutch player so he needs more scoring help


Playoffs

Kyrie 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_per_game)...... 23.9 ppg.. 57.3 ts.. 41% threes.. 89% ft.. 2.5 tov.. 23.0 PER.. 0.181 ws/48.. 3.6 obpm
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_per_game)... 19.8 ppg.. 52.4 ts.. 28% threes.. 72% ft.. 3.1 tov.. 19.7 PER.. 0.157 ws/48.. 3.1 obpm

Kyrie 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_advanced)...... outplayed league mvp.. hit Finals-winning shot.. 28 ppg career Finals avg
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_advanced)... outplayed by schrempf.. no winning shots...... 18 ppg career Finals avg


Ultimately, the Bulls would've been much better on both sides of the ball with Kyrie replacing Pippen - they'd have better offense because of Kyrie, and better defense because the team can pursue cheaper defenders and hustle guys versus needing expensive scorers and shooters like Pippen's weaker offense requires.

man you are so ****ing lame. whats the point of debating someone who never admits that they are wrong? and you're always wrong.



fear not though because I'm never going to stop crushing you. this debate goes back to when lebron was "2 for 5" "2 for 6" and that was your only point then as well. relative competition plays a role - when you're playing teams like the 2013 spurs or 2016 warriors, OF COURSE you'd need help. not everyone plays the jazz or sonics or old lakers in the finals. FYI lebron and kyrie would make easy work of all of those teams. every. single. one. of jordan's finals opponents.


your point was ALWAYS that lebron is too ball-dominant to win as the first option. you said he's not an all-time player. how come you can't admit that you are wrong?


buh buh buh kyrie.



now you're comparing kyrie to pippen - what? you get tired of trying to tell us that mo williams and MJ would've been a cavs dynasty? :oldlol:


everyone here knows your exact angle. everything you've ever posted is to prop up mj - debating with you has actually opened my eyes on how 6 for 6 is literally the most overrated stat in sports history. you're always trying to paint this delusional picture of jordan being an invincible winning machine.

here's reality: jordan played on a team that won 55-games WITHOUT him the next season. and in hindsight his team was superior to every finals opponent he ever faced. of course thats mostly jordan - BUT IT'S ALSO THE SUPPORTING CAST THAT WON 55-games WITHOUT him :roll:


without that cast his record was a robust, healthy 1 for 9 in the playoffs. :)

[FromDowntown]

How many playoff wins without Pippen.

[3ball]

How many playoff wins without Pippen.
the same as any 8 seed would - zero or maybe 1

the same lebron would get if he ever had a low seed in the playoffs - fortunately, he only had high seeds/good teams in the playoffs, while his low seeds in 04/05/19 avoided the doomed 8 vs 1 matchup against the league champs

[red1]

1 for 9 is something just to troll jordan stans like yourself. young mj losing in the first round is fine when playing great competition.


the REAL damning point is the fact that his team won 55-games without him. and he never won a single thing without that "stacked" supporting cast


and his competition wasnt that good -especially considering that his team won 55-games without him.


your entire narrative of mj being an invincible winning machine that would've built a dynasty with mo williams and anderson varejao - the fact that his bulls won 55-games without him - that just throws your delusional michael jordan mo williams dynasty argument out the window. :roll:

and man you REALLY pushed that narrative, I remember it very VERY well. you guaranteed that MJ would've led the mo williams cavs to rings. :roll:


MJ didnt win a thing without his stacked team yet he'd win with mo ****ing williams and its a guarantee - get real :roll:

[Real Men Wear Green]

All 35 points aren't the same

Too many long dribbles when he scores 35+, so he always loses against good teams when he averages 35+

if he could beat you with scoring, then Stan Van Gundy's no double-team strategy would've fail.. but SVG said they wanted lebron to "dribble and get stats" aka exploited

Exploited for long dribbles/predictable team offense and not having a jumper that gets hot/requires getting ball out of hands
Please don't bump stupid bullshit.