What am i supposed to make of this?

[3ball]

.
09' Mo Will RS:. 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS:.. 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF:.ni 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd:. 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. beat 'o #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)

* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper


Looks like Lebron had the far better cast but lost to a worse team than MJ defeated in 89'.. :confusedshrug:

So Lebron's 09' loss as the favorite was clearly a black mark and MJ would've won against the weaker opponent and with the greater help on BOTH ends of the floor (cavs had the better defense than 89' bulls)
.

[scuzzy]

how come you don't hype Scottie Ingraham anymore?

[G0ATbe]

But we gotta factor in that pippen played in the almighty handcheck era so his 10-15ppg actually equals 25-30ppg when compared to mo. Isnt that how it works?

[RRR3]

You like BPM, eh?

Well, here's some fun stats for you.




95-96 Regular Season BPM

MJ 8.6
Pippen 6.8


95-96 Playofffs BPM

Pippen 9.3
MJ 8.1



96-97 Regular Season BPM
MJ 6.7
Pippen 6.6


1996-97 Playoffs BPM
MJ 8.7
Pippen 5.2



1997-98 Regular Season BPM
Pippen 5.8 (only 44 games)
MJ 4.6


1997-98 Playoffs BPM
Pippen 7.0
MJ 6.2

[3ball]

how come you don't hype Scottie Ingraham anymore?
Exactly, 89' Pippen sucks compared to 19' Ingram, let alone 09' Mo Williams

[RRR3]

Exactly, 89' Pippen sucks compared to 19' Ingram, let alone 09' Mo Williams
Ingram had a -2.8 BPM last year :yaohappy:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What you "made of it" the first time you mentioned it.

Get new material bro. This gimmick is super stale.

[3ball]

You like BPM, eh?

Well, here's some fun stats for you.




95-96 Regular Season BPM

MJ 8.6
Pippen 6.8


95-96 Playofffs BPM

Pippen 9.3
MJ 8.1



96-97 Regular Season BPM
MJ 6.7
Pippen 6.6


1996-97 Playoffs BPM
MJ 8.7
Pippen 5.2



1997-98 Regular Season BPM
Pippen 5.8 (only 44 games)
MJ 4.6


1997-98 Playoffs BPM
Pippen 7.0
MJ 6.2


BPM values defensive rebounds, which is why Bird gas higher DBPM than Pippen, despite not being a better defender

The makers of BPM state that DBPM can't be relied on to measure defensive impact - since the makers of BPM concede below that DBPM is bullshit, so is BPM .. accordingly, only OBPM can be relied on:



From the makers of BPM on bballref:

"There are limitations on all box score stats – if the box score doesn't measure a particular contribution, a box-score-based metric can only approximate that contribution. This is not a great hindrance on the offensive side, as nearly everything of importance on offense is captured by the box score, but on defense the box score is quite limited. Blocks, steals, and rebounds, along with minutes and what little information offensive numbers yield about defensive performance are all that is available. Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender."

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html


:cheers:

[RRR3]

BPM values defensive rebounds, which is why Bird gas higher DBPM than Pippen, despite not being a better defender

The makers of BPM state that DBPM can't be relied on to measure defensive impact - since the makers of BPM concede below that DBPM is bullshit, so is BPM .. accordingly, only OBPM can be relied on:



From the makers of BPM on bballref:

"There are limitations on all box score stats – if the box score doesn't measure a particular contribution, a box-score-based metric can only approximate that contribution. This is not a great hindrance on the offensive side, as nearly everything of importance on offense is captured by the box score, but on defense the box score is quite limited. Blocks, steals, and rebounds, along with minutes and what little information offensive numbers yield about defensive performance are all that is available. Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender."

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html


:cheers:
LeBron has the highest OBPM of all time :oldlol:

Pippen still had a higher VORP than MJ in the 96 and 98 playoffs :confusedshrug:

[ShawkFactory]

So we

[3ball]

LeBron has the highest OBPM of all time :oldlol:

Pippen still had a higher VORP than MJ in the 96 and 98 playoffs :confusedshrug:
:facepalm ... I beat down your BPM attempt so now you cherry-pick a couple instances of vorp

Pippen's vorp in 96' and 98' are a good example of why those stats don't work by themselves in one-off situations.. he averaged 16 on 39% those years

that's why you have to show all of the advanced stats at once.like how I showed every major advanced stat (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48) - and Mo led them all by a lot... when they all say the same thing, it's valid - in this instance, 09' Mo destroys 89' Pip in regular season and playoffs..

So MJ had less help, yet beat a better team than the 09' Magic based on SRS and all-star players/good players.. and as an underdog no less... thats how we know MJ would've easily won as a massive favorite against a weaker opponent like Dwight, with a better cast like Mo...

[GimmeThat]

I see not everyone understanding how to play their part when the leader of the team is younger than them

[SouBeachTalents]

:facepalm ... I beat down your BPM attempt so now you cherry-pick a couple instances of vorp

Pippen's vorp in 96' and 98' are a good example of why those stats don't work by themselves in one-off situations.. he averaged 16 on 39% those years

that's why you have to show all of the advanced stats at once.like how I showed every major advanced stat (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48) - and Mo led them all by a lot... when they all say the same thing, it's valid - in this instance, 09' Mo destroys 89' Pip in regular season and playoffs..

So MJ had less help, yet beat a better team than the 09' Magic based on SRS and all-star players/good players.. and as an underdog no less... thats how we know MJ would've easily won as a massive favorite against a weaker opponent like Dwight, with a better cast like Mo...
Where you shoot yourself in the foot in these arguments is, you almost always bring up stats/advanced stats to say Player A > Player B, just like you do here to argue Mo Will > Pippen. Yet LeBron's stats/advanced stats are superior to literally all but a handful of players, yet you leave him out of your top 15 of all time.

However, if you were to apply the same method that you use not only in the OP, but that you've used on several occasions in your threads and posts, then there's what, not even 5 players you could argue as being superior to LeBron.

The problem you face is, you can't use one argument over and over again to prove one player is better than another in the majority of your discussions, then refuse to apply it while discussing LeBron; otherwise your entire argument for LeBron being outside the top 15 falls flat on it's face. You'd then have to concede that arguments like the ones you use in your OP establish LeBron as at worst, a top 5 player of all time

[Ainosterhaspie]

LeBron has the highest OBPM of all time :oldlol:

Pippen still had a higher VORP than MJ in the 96 and 98 playoffs :confusedshrug:
Damn! That backfired fast.

[Ainosterhaspie]

OP isn't even showing Pippen better in the series being considered. That massive edge in rebounds stands out. Same ORtg. Mo got three extra points on slightly worse efficiency. Those three points though. :eek: Surely that totally makes up for Scottie's defensive advantage.

Oh and in the series in question Bulls DRtg was 105.9, Cavs was 113.3. So no the Cavs didn't have the better defense.

[SpaceJam]

Woah MJ beat 3 all-stars that season?!

Than lost to a team with only 1 :(

[StrongLurk]

OP has been getting bodybagged all week and keeps melting down.

He's like a degenerate gambler who keeps getting worse the more he loses. Probably the only thing he has in common with MJ :lol

[jlip]

Why I stopped wasting time responding to a 3ball initiated thread years ago...


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12069705&postcount=17

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11482128&postcount=84

[RRR3]

Why I stopped wasting time responding to a 3ball initiated thread years ago...


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12069705&postcount=17

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11482128&postcount=84
I don’t think he’s riseagainst. I think that guy was trolling. But it’s possible. One poster hinted he may be samuraiswish (I I got the hint right at least) tho.

[egokiller]

.
09' Mo Will RS:. 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS:.. 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF:.ni 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd:. 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. beat 'o #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)

* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper


Looks like Lebron had the far better cast but lost to a worse team than MJ defeated in 89'.. :confusedshrug:

So Lebron's 09' loss as the favorite was clearly a black mark and MJ would've won against the weaker opponent and with the greater help on BOTH ends of the floor (cavs had the better defense than 89' bulls)
.

Basically MJ did more than LeBron with less, and he did it during a time when you were actually allowed to play defense and the league had guys in the paint that could actually stop the offensive player, compared to today's watered down rule set.

When it comes down to it, there's just zero argument for justifying lebron's failures, while the argument for justifying Jordan's shortcomings are simply due to lack of help against superior competition than what LeBron ever faced. This is why life as an NBA fan absolutely sucks balls for those who didn't get to watch MJ, and instead had to settle for mediocrity in the form of LeBron James under an inferior rule set.

[3ball]

LeBron has the highest OBPM of all time :oldlol:


Career Playoffs

Jordan OBPM - 8.1 (#1 all-time)
Lebron OBPM - 7.8


MJ has the highest OBPM in the regular season as well, if you look at his Bulls career only (7.7 to lebron's 7.3).. Only his wizards years (0.3 - 2.3) brought him below Lebron..

[RRR3]

Career Playoffs

Jordan OBPM - 8.1 (#1 all-time)
Lebron OBPM - 7.8


MJ has the highest OBPM in the regular season as well, if you look at his Bulls career only (7.7 to lebron's 7.3).. Only his wizards years (0.3 - 2.3) brought him below Lebron..
Okay, so LeBron second best ever right?

[3ball]

Okay, so LeBron second best ever right?
He's #2 in stats, #3 actually maybe lower

There's still winning to consider (like not losing as big favorite to Dwight)..

accolades too... and peak

[Vino24]

He's #2 in stats, #3 actually maybe lower

There's still winning to consider (like not losing as big favorite to Dwight)..

accolades too... and peak
So you value winning right? How do you have Wilt as the 2nd GOAT? :rolleyes:

[3ball]

So you value winning right? How do you have Wilt as the 2nd GOAT? :rolleyes:
I've since changed my rankings and rank all goat bigs below goat wings, because they need more help

So now Bird #2 with Kobe #3

[RRR3]

I've since changed my rankings and rank all goat bigs below goat wings, because they need more help

So now Bird #2 with Kobe #3
LeBron has the same number of rings as Bird. Can't use the stacked team argument since Bird had a stacked team his enitre career.

[3ball]

Point Guard - All-NBA Mark Price > Skip to my Lou

Shooting Guard - 20/5/5 Ron Harper > Mickal Peitrus

Forward - 3x all-star/all-defender/dunk champ Larry Nance > Rashard Lewis

Forward - Hot Rod Williams 11/9 and 1.7 blk > Hedo

Center - 5x all-star Daughtery (11th in 89' MVP) < Dwight, but only defensively


Ultimately, the 89' Cavs > 09' Magic... And 89' Mo > 89' Pip... So Lebron sucks for losing to a worse team with a better cast.. that's how we know MJ wouldn't have lost to Stan Van's Magic, let alone that silly no-double-team strategy that exploited lebron..
.

[RRR3]

Duh dee duhhhh
Dwight was clearly better than anyone on the 89 Cavs :oldlol:

Why don't you tell us what Mo Williams did without LeBron in his career? :oldlol:

[3ball]

Dwight was clearly better than anyone on the 89 Cavs :oldlol:


Means nothing - lebron was the best player many times but got beat by teams with better overall talent and/or teamwork

The 89' Cavs clearly have more overall talent than the 09' Magic, and therefore would overwhelm Dwight the same way lebron gets overwhelmed by various opponents the hs career.





Mo Williams did without LeBron in his career? :oldlol:


Time of Possession(ball-time) 2019 Regular Season)

Lebron - 6.4 minutes per game
Durant - 4.2 minutes per game
Kawhi - 4.0 minutes per game

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

Mo's stats the year before joining lebron - 18 ppg and 6.1 apg
Mo's stats the year....after joining lebron - 18 ppg and 4.1 apg


Lebron's abnormally-high ball-dominance as a front court player took time away from teammates compared to their ball-time alongside traditional forwards that play off-ball a lot.. The lesser ball-time that teammates get craters their assists, which results in low team assists and a brand that doesn't compete well n the championship level...

As you can see from Mo's stats above, his assists cratered alongside lebron, similar to Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, love and others.. this lowers the TEAM'S assists and brand of ball

[3ball]

LeBron has the same number of rings as Bird. Can't use the stacked team argument since Bird had a stacked team his enitre career.
In addition to stats, winning, accolades, and peak, there's skills.

Bird is #1 all-time in basketball skill

Btw, we've concluded itt that Lebron had better supporting talent (Mo over Pip) but lost to a weaker team (09' Magic < 89' Cavs), and we know WHY Lebron lost that year - he doesn't command double teams, which Stan Van Gundy said allowed them to stay at home on his teammates.. what an exposure.. an embarrassment..
.

[Smoke117]

Is this mentally sick loser still obsessing over the 89 Bulls? :oldlol:

[Vino24]

I've since changed my rankings and rank all goat bigs below goat wings, because they need more help

So now Bird #2 with Kobe #3
Kobe at 3? So you value sidekick rings? Where do you have Pippen?

[3ball]

Kobe at 3? So you value sidekick rings? Where do you have Pippen?
I value a guy like Kobe that was insta-multiple-championships with a non-premium sidekick like Bosh.. I mean Pau..

I also value how MJ was so goat that his goatness cloned itself, aka inspired another version of himself (Kobe) who carried on his goat skillset for another 20 years and through multiple eras and rule changes - otoh, Lebron will remembered, but he wasn't great enough to inspire a clone of himself that will help us remember every aspect of his game.. Lebron's legacy will fade like say, Bird's has.

Btw, notice how ESPN has stopped ranting on about Lebron's career stat totals - they realize that the longer he plays and the more stats he amasses with a low ring count makes him look worse, not better.. All those stats and low rings means you weren't doing something right

ultimately, the ball-dominant, cp3 skillset at 6'8" isn't goat - the off-ball, versatile scorer is still the premium skillset that wins that most (curry, mj, durant, kobe, kawhi, bird vs. ball-dominators Lebron/harden/westbrook/cp3/nash, etc) .
.