Is Kobe's career the most manufactured career in NBA history?

[SpaceJam]

18x All-Star*

1998 All Star averaging 15/3/3
2014 All Star averaging 14/4/6 (in only 6 games played)
2015 All Star averaging 22/6/6 (in only 35 games played, 37% FG)
2016 All Star averaging 18/3/4 (on 17 shots a game)

9x All-Defense 1st Team*


“Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.

"Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground.”

Phil Jax

FroBe was a defensive beast I will give him that. 2006 and 2007 no. I'll give him 2008 that was a good year for him.
2009 and 2010 1st team should have easily gone to DWade. 2011 I'd have given it to Chris Paul or Tony Allen.

1x Most Valuable Player

Seems to be a big debate whether Kobe deserved this one or not over Chris Paul

'Bryant scored more than Paul (28.3 points to 21.1), while Paul compensated by more than doubling Kobe in assists (11.6, which led the league, to Bryant’s 5.4)'

Paul led the league in steals with 2.7 per game

Paul turned the ball over less frequently (2.5 per game vs. 3.1 for Bryant)

Paul had more efficient shooting splits across the board (48.8%/36.9%/85.1% to 45.9%/36.1%/84.0%)

Paul led the league in offensive win shares (13.2), total win shares (17.8) and win shares/48 minutes (.284), easily besting Bryant on all counts (9.5/13.8/.208).

Paul’s box plus/minus of 9.2 was nearly double Bryant’s 5.4

Paul had a significantly higher Value over Replacement Player (8.5 to 6.0).

2x Finals Most Valuable Player

'Kobe averaged 28.6 points, 8.0 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 2.7 steals, 0.7 blocks and 3.9 turnovers per game on 52.8% true shooting and 41 minutes per game. The Lakers had a 108 offensive rating and a 99 defensive rating when he was on the court and his average game score during the Finals was 18.7.

Pau averaged 18.6 points, 11.6 rebounds (5.0 of which were OReb), 3.7 assists, 0.7 steals, 2.6 blocks and 1.8 turnovers per game on 55.6% true shooting and 42 minutes per game. The Lakers had a 122 offensive rating and a 101 defensive rating when he was on the court and his average game score during the Finals was 18.6.'

Also....6/24

Kobe's resume could have very much looked like....

14x All Star
4x All Defense 1st Team
0x Most Valuable Player
1x Finals Most Valuable Player

Legendary resume no doubt, however does it warrant a top 10 all time standing (also very VERY debatable)

Could we be looking at a glorified Joe Dumars type career?

To conclude, whether you're a fan or not, the fact that some of his career accolades are DEBATABLE really is telling just how much his career was bolstered by the league and the media. It really started with him forcing his was to the big smoke of LA, had he stayed in Charlotte would anyone have cared? Would he have made the Hornets must see TV (ala LeBron did for the Cavaliers) Was the league unable to find the next MJ and just thought oh well he'll do. Was Kobe the media's golden child for most of his career.

Share your thoughts below and don't forget to give the thread 5 stars. Thank you

[Akeem34TheDream]

Agreed about All star and 1st defense teams but Pau just wasn't Fmvp. 10 ppg difference is too much. Kobe was the man. Also Mvp in 2008 was debatable. But it always is, right?

[AussieSteve]

Kobe was always going to be ATG. The only thing that could have stopped him being top 25 all time was injury. He had an ATG combo of work ethic, skill and athleticism. And an alpha ball hog mentality that meant he was always going to have a few 30+ ppg seasons, which the casuals love.

But he was not always destined for top 15 all time as he has ended up. Shaq and Phil made that happen.

[SpaceJam]

Agreed about All star and 1st defense teams but Pau just wasn't Fmvp. 10 ppg difference is too much. Kobe was the man. Also Mvp in 2008 was debatable. But it always is, right?

Oh trust me I'm heavily against Paul Pierce winning it, you shouldn't win FMVP in a series where you had a 6 point game. But alas

[iamgine]

Well Kobe was the most popular NBA player on the planet BY FAR so some of his accolades are due to that. He was top 5 for roughly a decade. If we consider popularity and style at all into what makes a career, Kobe's would be up there. For years all anyone could talk about was Kobe. He had the 'it' factor that guys like Duncan and Dirk didn't.

[SouBeachTalents]

All-Star I honestly don't care about, I bet most ATG's have at least a couple of fraudulent selections, just an extremely overrated accolade imo

His MVP & 2nd FMVP were debatable, but he obviously had a good argument to win both. The All-Defensive selections however are a well known joke

[AirTupac]

He should have won MVP x2 idiot. The year before his MVP season was worthy of another MVP :oldlol:

[FKAri]

Still not as manufactured as his persona

[superduper]

Still not as manufactured as his persona

LeIrony

[Norcaliblunt]

Definitely the most manufactured. The way he hypes himself and his work ethic is so cringe.

[Keno]

nothing but cold hard facts posted in OP, totally agree. :applause:

[kentatm]

He had the 'it' factor that guys like Duncan and Dirk didn't.


That "it" factor was the fact that he played for the Lakers while they were on the Mavs and Spurs. Put either of those dudes on the Lakers for their entire careers and the media would be slobbering over both as top 10 all time types. Put Kobe on the Mavs or Spurs and he is a Clyde Drexler/Vince Carter/Paul Pierce type in the media's mind.

[FKAri]

That "it" factor was the fact that he played for the Lakers while they were on the Mavs and Spurs. Put either of those dudes on the Lakers for their entire careers and the media would be slobbering over both as top 10 all time types. Put Kobe on the Mavs or Spurs and he is a Clyde Drexler/Vince Carter/Paul Pierce type in the media's mind.
Kobe was the best fit for the desperate attempt to find the next Jordan. It also helped Kobe's case that Dirk was a foreigner and Duncan a geek.

[sundizz]

No matter what way you chop it the most import part of his career is:

5x Champ
Approx 28 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg, 1.5 spg, 1 bpg on 45%, 35%, 83% average over those 5 titles

There

[iamgine]

That "it" factor was the fact that he played for the Lakers while they were on the Mavs and Spurs. Put either of those dudes on the Lakers for their entire careers and the media would be slobbering over both as top 10 all time types. Put Kobe on the Mavs or Spurs and he is a Clyde Drexler/Vince Carter/Paul Pierce type in the media's mind.
It's not only that. Duncan and Dirk certainly wouldn't be the most popular NBA player by far had they play for the Lakers. They didn't have that factor. Iverson had that "it" factor for a while.

[LAmbruh]

so many damn W's this offseason


we getting chubby boys :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

act like Kobe's the only player in NBA history to get all-star games on his way out ... like MJ, Wade, Duncan and Dirk haven't got all-star games with equally terrible seasons..

The Kobe vs CP3 argument is only made by idiots who weren't around to watch the league in 2008 and go off raw numbers in Basketball-Reference. Kobe took a much worse roster to the #1 seed and beat Chris Paul's Hornets in April when they battled for that 1st spot. Kobe was clearly the best player in the league in 2008, Lakers were already on pace to be a top 3 seed prior to the Pau trade. Kobe 3-peats if Bynum and Ariza aren't hurt in 2008. Kobe also won the MVP vote by a considerable margin so it's not like it was even close to begin with.

2010 Finals..Pau was clearly a less valuable player in that series and the reason why we were down 2 - 3 with his terrible play on the road, Kobe ended up averaging 10 more points a game and had a higher GameScore...the haters can try and come up with stats to make their case but anyone who watched the series knows that Kobe's the reason they won that series.

[Dr Hawk]

No.

[superduper]

so many damn W's this offseason


we getting chubby boys :oldlol:

Well you better enjoy it because LeGOAT's playoff mode has been activated :mad:

[SpaceJam]

act like Kobe's the only player in NBA history to get all-star games on his way out ... like MJ, Wade, Duncan and Dirk haven't got all-star games with equally terrible seasons..

The Kobe vs CP3 argument is only made by idiots who weren't around to watch the league in 2008 and go off raw numbers in Basketball-Reference. Kobe took a much worse roster to the #1 seed and beat Chris Paul's Hornets in April when they battled for that 1st spot. Kobe was clearly the best player in the league in 2008, Lakers were already on pace to be a top 3 seed prior to the Pau trade. Kobe 3-peats if Bynum and Ariza aren't hurt in 2008. Kobe also won the MVP vote by a considerable margin so it's not like it was even close to begin with.

2010 Finals..Pau was clearly a less valuable player in that series and the reason why we were down 2 - 3 with his terrible play on the road, Kobe ended up averaging 10 more points a game and had a higher GameScore...the haters can try and come up with stats to make their case but anyone who watched the series knows that Kobe's the reason they won that series.

Show me an all star season from those 4 players that was worse than Kobe's 4 appearances I noted in the OP besides Dirk's honorary bs one last season

Argument was made by idiots who weren't around in 2008?

April 18th 2008


Chris Paul
For MVP Question No. 1, we'll remember him for saving basketball in New Orleans, turning the Hornets into a playoff contender

http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080416

April 23rd 2008

[QUOTE]It

[Spurs m8]

Not a Kobe fan what so ever,

But,

We all know who the most manufactured star is.

It's the insecurity in OP that made him start this thread to begin with.

Nothing comes close either....

[SpaceJam]

As per usual KawhiM8 inputting nothing of value besides further projecting the fact Bron on his mind 24/7. Tell us something we don't know brother

[Spurs m8]

As per usual KawhiM8 inputting nothing of value besides further projecting the fact Bron on his mind 24/7. Tell us something we don't know brother

You asked a question, I answered it with a truthful answer.

Truth hurt your feelings you little f@ggot?

[SpaceJam]

You asked a question, I answered it with a truthful answer.

Truth hurt your feelings you little f@ggot?

The irony of someone trying to put on a tough facade over the internet by name calling but censoring it with symbols never fails to make me laugh :oldlol:

I won't tell your parents brother

[Spurs m8]

The irony of someone trying to put on a tough facade over the internet by name calling but censoring it with symbols never fails to make me laugh :oldlol:

I won't tell your parents brother

The stupidity of someone failing to realise the symbols are to override the censoring.

Its okay mate, everyone knows bron stans are dumb fvcks

[SpaceJam]

The stupidity of someone failing to realise the symbols are to override the censoring.

Its okay mate, everyone knows bron stans are dumb fvcks

Keep it going! :roll: :roll:

[MrFonzworth]

fvcks
What is this aussie slang?

[Mr Feeny]

act like Kobe's the only player in NBA history to get all-star games on his way out ... like MJ, Wade, Duncan and Dirk haven't got all-star games with equally terrible seasons..

The Kobe vs CP3 argument is only made by idiots who weren't around to watch the league in 2008 and go off raw numbers in Basketball-Reference. Kobe took a much worse roster to the #1 seed and beat Chris Paul's Hornets in April when they battled for that 1st spot. Kobe was clearly the best player in the league in 2008, Lakers were already on pace to be a top 3 seed prior to the Pau trade. Kobe 3-peats if Bynum and Ariza aren't hurt in 2008. Kobe also won the MVP vote by a considerable margin so it's not like it was even close to begin with.

2010 Finals..Pau was clearly a less valuable player in that series and the reason why we were down 2 - 3 with his terrible play on the road, Kobe ended up averaging 10 more points a game and had a higher GameScore...the haters can try and come up with stats to make their case but anyone who watched the series knows that Kobe's the reason they won that series.


Imagine being this deluded:lol
Chris Paul took a much worse roster than the Lakers and had 10 times better stats than Kobe did. He didnt have Gasol to come carry him to a 50 win + mark as Kobe did after Kove failed to win a single playoff series after Shaq retired and before Gasol arrived.

And then carried him in game 7 of the 2010 finals as Kobe went 6-24, as you mentioned.

It was a pity MVP. It really should have been Paul's.

[SpaceJam]

What is this aussie slang?

Not familiar with it on my side of town down under

[bobopenguin]

anyone who thinks kobe is manufactured star should stop watching basketball.

[SpaceJam]

anyone who thinks kobe is manufactured star should stop watching basketball.

No one is denying Kobe's stardom, without a doubt top 20 all time. However his career looking kinda funny in the light

[Overdrive]

18x All-Star*

1998 All Star averaging 15/3/3
2014 All Star averaging 14/4/6 (in only 6 games played)
2015 All Star averaging 22/6/6 (in only 35 games played, 37% FG)
2016 All Star averaging 18/3/4 (on 17 shots a game)

9x All-Defense 1st Team*



Phil Jax

FroBe was a defensive beast I will give him that. 2006 and 2007 no. I'll give him 2008 that was a good year for him.
2009 and 2010 1st team should have easily gone to DWade. 2011 I'd have given it to Chris Paul or Tony Allen.


All defense was always like that. You're a offensive juggernaut playing solid D? Might get the award ahead of some role player who shuts down opponents.

[quote]
1x Most Valuable Player

Seems to be a big debate whether Kobe deserved this one or not over Chris Paul

'Bryant scored more than Paul (28.3 points to 21.1), while Paul compensated by more than doubling Kobe in assists (11.6, which led the league, to Bryant

[LAL]

Some players have better stats than actual game.
Not Kobe tho.

[ImKobe]

Imagine being this deluded:lol
Chris Paul took a much worse roster than the Lakers and had 10 times better stats than Kobe did. He didnt have Gasol to come carry him to a 50 win + mark as Kobe did after Kove failed to win a single playoff series after Shaq retired and before Gasol arrived.

And then carried him in game 7 of the 2010 finals as Kobe went 6-24, as you mentioned.

It was a pity MVP. It really should have been Paul's.

Much worse?

Kobe was basically playing with the 2007 roster and leading his team to a pace of ~57 wins (25-11 record at the time) when Bynum went down against the Grizzlies in January. Then he proceeded to play 10 games with Kwame and Turiaf as his starting bigs before the trade went through and they still finished at 57 wins at the end of the season.

The 2008 Hornets had West at his peak, Peja when he was still great and Tyson Chandler at his athletic prime, their starting 5 all were healthy throughout the season as well. Paul had great shooters and better bigs around him than Kobe yet finished with a better record so what's the problem here again?

Let's take a look at April, when all the top teams were fighting for the 1st seed

Kobe: 26/7/6 46/46/85 shooting 7 - 1 record
Paul: 18/5/13 44/32/85 shooting 6 - 4 record

It was a close race all year but Kobe took the award home by coming up huge at the end of the season and beating the Hornets and Spurs H2H for the #1 seed. MVP has usually been about best player on the highest-seeded team unless someone had a historic individual season, Paul was great but he didn't lead a better team to a better record as he should have to win the award. I wish we had data from that season to compare how much more Paul handled the ball vs. Kobe to show you why the statistics really don't matter in this case either, just like when you guys shit on Westbrook's triple-doubles because he does too much in order to achieve the stats.

[RRR3]

Much worse?

Kobe was basically playing with the 2007 roster and leading his team to a pace of ~57 wins (25-11 record at the time) when Bynum went down against the Grizzlies in January. Then he proceeded to play 10 games with Kwame and Turiaf as his starting bigs before the trade went through and they still finished at 57 wins at the end of the season.

The 2008 Hornets had West at his peak, Peja when he was still great and Tyson Chandler at his athletic prime, their starting 5 all were healthy throughout the season as well. Paul had great shooters and better bigs around him than Kobe yet finished with a worse record so what's the problem here again?

Let's take a look at April, when all the top teams were fighting for the 1st seed

Kobe: 26/7/6 46/46/85 shooting 7 - 1 record
Paul: 18/5/13 44/32/85 shooting 6 - 4 record

It was a close race all year but Kobe took the award home by coming up huge at the end of the season and beating the Hornets and Spurs H2H for the #1 seed. MVP has usually been about best player on the highest-seeded team unless someone had a historic individual season, Paul was great but he didn't lead a better team to a better record as he should have to win the award. I wish we had data from that season to compare how much more Paul handled the ball vs. Kobe to show you why the statistics really don't matter in this case either, just like when you guys shit on Westbrook's triple-doubles because he does too much in order to achieve the stats.
CP3 on/off: +9.1
Kobe on/off: +7.0

[RealSkipBayless]

Nope. It's Lebron and it's not even close.

The media goes on about his finals streak, but doesn't mention how weak the eastern conference was. How his toughest opponent is either the Rose/Noah Bulls, or the Hibbert/(baby)Paul George Pacers. They also fail to mention that he by far had the most stacked roster to steamroll through the east. Starting off with 2 all-nba/ top 3 PER teammates during the Heat run. And a 26 PPG Kyrie with a 25/12 K Love during the Cavs run. All the while having some of the best 3 point shooting role players in NBA history. None of that is mentioned, just that Lebron went to the finals for 8 seasons in a row. It got to a point where Kyrie got sick of it and dipped. Also, No mention that the collusion started because he was getting smacked around by the Celtics and Dwight Howard.

The media also overblows his individuals accolades. (Due in part to the 3/9 and poor team results). They will point to his stats but not look at the other stats such as how long he is monopolizing possession and his usage rate. They look the other way when he is doing obvious stat padding. There are numerous examples of him in the regular season having a giant lead heading into the fourth and him staying balls deep into the game in order to get his stats. Meanwhile you have successful teams/players like GS bench their entire starters in similar situations. Instead they run with the idea that he "makes his teammates better" to cover this up. Which is proven false by the numbers.

They (the media) and Lebron try desperately to keep inserting him into the GOAT conversation when that discussion ship sailed in 2011. He was so shook after that he made a commercial asking "What should I do"? In his "hey i grew up in the streets" barbershop show he had to do it again. He did the unthinkable and called himself the GOAT to reignite the conversation. The conversation that was LONG over especially after getting spanked by Durant in back to back seasons. And still journalist who have never dribbled a ball, fresh out of journalist school will create lists and put top 3. Yes, one journalist will represent an entire company, (ESPN, SI, USA Today) etc. Yet when we get opinions from people who have played and studied the game, they don't even have Lebron over Magic/Kobe etc.