How many wins for Pippen if he takes over regular lottery team instead of..

[3ball]

a 3-peat system?

I don't believe Pippen is a legit #1 option - he can't score well without the system, and he has MANY series where he averaged 15 ppg on 33% to 40%..

Again, he isn't a legit #1 option - horrible shooter... ordinary handle .. no moves.. the definition of system player

[FKAri]

3-peat

[Dr Hawk]

Pippen was a great second option player thanks to his all-around game, but he needed someone who could take care of the offensive load.

[Kblaze8855]

Scottie Pippen was an open floor scorer even down to his transition threes. The triangle didn

[Gileraracer]

Pippen without Jordan wouldn't have been very successful, but still Pippen was very important for the Bulls success because he was such a great system player.

Of course he's not a #1 option.

[Reggie43]

Pippen was a legit franchise player who took a step back in his game to complement the goat and win. Instead of early exits in the playoffs as the main guy he decided he wanted to win 6 rings as the secondary star. Pretty easy to understand if you lived the era and know your basketball lol

[TheMan]

Pippen was a legit franchise player who took a step back in his game to complement the goat and win. Instead of early exits in the playoffs as the main guy he decided he wanted to win 6 rings as the secondary star. Pretty easy to understand if you lived the era and know your basketball lol
Pippen was never a first option...if so, explain why PJax would draw up plays for Toni Kukoc instead of Pip in late game situations? He wasn't first option with the Bulls, Rockets and Blazers...

[Phoenix]

There has to be a distinction between 'best player' and 'first option' in terms of scoring/offense. As a 'best player', if you took the 94/95 version of Pip( and this is, for the sake of argument, assuming for purposes of this discussion he's the exact same player without MJ/Phil) and put him on a team like the 2004 Pistons, who would dominate off historically great defense and not needing a 'GOAT' type offensive talent to win, he could win as the 'best player' in that situation. Actually, a team with 95 Pippen in place of Prince with Rip/Chauncy in the backcourt and Sheed/Big Ben up front would be pretty fukking spectular, in all honesty.

As a 'first option', again as the same player he saw in his peak, he could put up his 20ppg but he would have needed someone to take the clutch shots. Scottie was an opportunistic scorer in transition and taking advantage of easy looks afforded to him because 2/3 guys were focused on MJ. As 'the' offensive option, he would have never been able to take a series by the throat offensively through will. He was never a 'give him the ball and get the fukk out the way' type offensive player even at his peak. If he was, that would have been the difference between beating the Knicks in 94 and having the series come down to a questionable call.

[Hey Yo]

Pippen was never a first option...if so, explain why PJax would draw up plays for Toni Kukoc instead of Pip in late game situations? He wasn't first option with the Bulls, Rockets and Blazers...
:mad: :mad: :rant

triggered

:oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

Um, Scottie was an mvp candidate that particular season, so I'd imagine that version of Pippen would do ok with any team. I think he could drag a team to a low seed playoff berth. Would he be allowed into the playoffs with 30 wins? Because he's not winning 50 with a lotto team then, not a slight to him because there have been very few guys if any who ever could. He's not as great a 1st option as Mj obviously, but there's only a handful of guys that possibly were. Pippen was clearly at a high enough level to lead any team he'd be on in that time period.

[RRR3]

Pippen was never a first option...if so, explain why PJax would draw up plays for Toni Kukoc instead of Pip in late game situations? He wasn't first option with the Bulls, Rockets and Blazers...
He was the first option on a 55 win team you insecure idiot.

[bigkingsfan]

Better than 1-9, in fact his single season is better than Mike five career years without Pippen, combined.

[sundizz]

He was arguably the best player on that Portland team. And they almost won a chip and it took heroic efforts by Kobe and Shaw to end them in game 7.

[Real14]

A 9th, 10th seed team.

[Real14]

He was arguably the best player on that Portland team. And they almost won a chip and it took heroic efforts by Kobe and Shaw to end them in game 7.
Rasheed was better.

[3ball]

He was arguably the best player on that Portland team. And they almost won a chip and it took heroic efforts by Kobe and Shaw to end them in game 7.
2000 WCF

Rasheed - 23.3.. 7.1.. 1.7.. 49.6 fg.. 63.6 3P.. 120 ortg.. 16.2 gmsc
S Pippen - 15.0.. 9.0.. 3.7.. 42.5 fg.. 25.0 3P.. 102 ortg.. 13.2 gmsc


Pippen was 3rd or 4th option all year and his defensive edge was small, if any - certainly couldn't tell on that last play against Kobe... Bonzi would've been the tougher cover for Kobe than Pip was.. Pip was a snail at that point and Kobe showed everyone where Pip was really at (done and finished)

[superduper]

2000 WCF

Rasheed - 23.3.. 7.1.. 1.7.. 49.6 fg.. 63.6 3P.. 120 ortg.. 16.2 gmsc
S Pippen - 15.0.. 9.0.. 3.7.. 42.5 fg.. 25.0 3P.. 102 ortg.. 13.2 gmsc


Pippen was 3rd or 4th option all year and his defensive edge was small, if any - certainly couldn't tell on that last play against Kobe... Bonzi would've been the tougher cover for Kobe than Pip was.. Pip was a snail at that point and Kobe showed everyone where Pip was really at (done and finished)

Lol, these Bran stans are stanning a 42%fg 25%3pt Pippen but literally wish death upon 45% career FG Kobe and 33% career 3FG Jordan and call them chuckers while having the nerve to say Pippen was the best player :oldlol:

And then they go on to say he's a franchise player #1 offensive option in order to troll the GOAT. You legit cannot make Bran retardation up :facepalm

[3ball]

There has to be a distinction between 'best player' and 'first option' in terms of scoring/offense. As a 'best player', if you took the 94/95 version of Pip( and this is, for the sake of argument, assuming for purposes of this discussion he's the exact same player without MJ/Phil) and put him on a team like the 2004 Pistons, who would dominate off historically great defense and not needing a 'GOAT' type offensive talent to win, he could win as the 'best player' in that situation. Actually, a team with 95 Pippen in place of Prince with Rip/Chauncy in the backcourt and Sheed/Big Ben up front would be pretty fukking spectular, in all honesty.


Yes, if you replace the weakest starter on a champion with peak Pippen, that champion will be an even greater champion

Presumably .. :oldlol:

Honestly, Pip couldn't stay in front of good ballhandlers that well, and certainly not like peak Prince, who was lighter on his feet and had a unique ability to stop Kobe - Pip likely gets torched by Kobe in 04' and the Lakers win with Kobe as FMVP...

Remember, 96' Penny took Pippen for 25 on 48% - so that means 35 for Kobe - Penny was the quickest/best ballhandler that Pippen ever guarded, and peak-04' Kobe is a lot better than Penny ever was.

And 95' Pip only averaged 19 on 40% against Penny - so when you replace Prince with Pip, you get a guy that can't guard Kobe as well, and his offense isn't better than Chauncey or Rip's..

So it's not nearly the upgrade that you think it is and actually demonstrates that pippen is overrated - i.e. if prince was a little better, he'd be Pip.... Or a guy like Jimmy Butler's elite offense would give the Pistons the 1st option scorer they could've used, and ultimately help them a lot more than Pip (probably guard Kobe better)

[Vino24]

Defense improved without MJ

[Smoke117]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Scottie Pippen was an open floor scorer even down to his transition threes. The triangle didn

[SouBeachTalents]

Yes, if you replace the weakest starter on a champion with peak Pippen, that champion will be an even greater champion

Presumably .. :oldlol:

Honestly, Pip couldn't stay in front of good ballhandlers that well, and certainly not like peak Prince, who was lighter on his feet and had a unique ability to stop Kobe - Pip likely gets torched by Kobe in 04' and the Lakers win with Kobe as FMVP...

Remember, 96' Penny took Pippen for 25 on 48% - so that means 35 for Kobe - Penny was the quickest/best ballhandler that Pippen ever guarded, and peak-04' Kobe is a lot better than Penny ever was.

And 95' Pip only averaged 19 on 40% against Penny - so when you replace Prince with Pip, you get a guy that can't guard Kobe as well, and his offense isn't better than Chauncey or Rip's..

So it's not nearly the upgrade that you think it is and actually demonstrates that pippen is overrated - i.e. if prince was a little better, he'd be Pip.... Or a guy like Jimmy Butler's elite offense would give the Pistons the 1st option scorer they could've used, and ultimately help them a lot more than Pip (probably guard Kobe better)
So you're saying Kobe goes from having a WOAT level Finals performance, to averaging 35 ppg, something he never came close to doing in 6/7 Finals, if Pippen defends him instead

https://media.giphy.com/media/l3E6uhDAN3W7vylji/giphy.gif

[3ball]

So you're saying Kobe goes from having a WOAT level Finals performance, to averaging 35 ppg, something he never came close to doing in 6/7 Finals, if Pippen defends him instead

https://media.giphy.com/media/l3E6uhDAN3W7vylji/giphy.gif


:oldlol: ... I guess the thread went from "how many wins does Pip get with a lottery team instead of a 3-peat system", to "what kinds of championship teams could Pippen be the best player on"??

Phoenix said Pip could be the best player on the 04' Pistons if you replaced prince with Pip, and that those Pistons would be even more amazing that way

Now this might be a true assertion, but it shows how weak pip was- in the history of the NBA, the 04' Pistons are the only team that Pippen would be the best player if you replaced the weakest starter with Pip??... This lone example shows how weak pip was, not how good he was

essentially, he can't be the best player on a champion unless you gather Sheed', Big Ben, Chauncey, Rip and Prince all on one team - then pip can be added and he'd be the best player... That's the lone scenario in the history of the league where that works - so good luck putting that together if you're a GM... :oldlol:

although he wouldn't be the best player because Chauncey, Sheed, and Rip were killer clutch players and superior offensive players or scorers - since Pip would literally be the 4th option in the clutch, no one would consider him the best player - Chauncey and Sheed would be considered better... Pip wasn't a top guy type of guy - he was a system guy

[SouBeachTalents]

:oldlol: ... I guess the thread went from "how many wins does Pip get with a lottery team instead of a 3-peat system", to "what kinds of championship teams could Pippen be the best player on"??

Phoenix said Pip could be the best player on the 04' Pistons if you replaced prince with Pip, and that those Pistons would be even more amazing that way

Now this might be a true assertion, but it shows how weak pip was- in the history of the NBA, the 04' Pistons are the only team that Pippen would be the best player if you replaced the weakest starter with Pip??... This lone example shows how weak pip was, not how good he was

essentially, he can't be the best player on a champion unless you gather Sheed', Big Ben, Chauncey, Rip and Prince all on one team - then pip can be added and he'd be the best player... That's the lone scenario in the history of the league where that works - so good luck putting that together if you're a GM... :oldlol:

although he wouldn't be the best player because Chauncey, Sheed, and Rip were killer clutch players and superior offensive players or scorers - since Pip would literally be the 4th option in the clutch, no one would consider him the best player - Chauncey and Sheed would be considered better... Pip wasn't a top guy type of guy - he was a system guy
Pippen would've been the best player on the 2014 Spurs. And it's not like it's implausible he could've been the best on the Bad Boy Pistons, although I'm sure there are a lot of people who wouldn't cede that argument to him over Isiah

[GimmeThat]

98-99 NBA Salary Cap 30,000,000, Scottie, 11,000,000 playoff
99-00 NBA Salary Cap 34,000,000, Scottie, 14,795,642 playoff
00-01 NBA Salary Cap 35,500,000, Scottie, 13,750,000 playoff
01-02 NBA Salary Cap 42,500,000, Scottie, 18,083,564 playoff
02-03 NBA Salary Cap 40,271,000, Scottie, 19,727,524 playoff

[3ball]

Pippen would've been the best player on the 2014 Spurs. And it's not like it's implausible he could've been the best on the Bad Boy Pistons, although I'm sure there are a lot of people who wouldn't cede that argument to him over Isiah
When did Pippen average 24 on 70% over any 3-game stretch of his 17-year career, let alone 3 straight games in the Finals to win FMVP like Kawhi

So no, he couldn't be better than Kawhi that year, and obviously Kawhi is better today too.

You can't get over the fact that all the top tier players are better scorers or shooters than Pip, and that's what you need to play on that top level

And best player on the bad boys? Isiah was the #1 prodigy pick out of Indiana (national champs) and a HOF-level immediately, while Pippen was a 7 ppg rookie and undeveloped player.. Isiah would've led Pippen and that would never have changed..

Pippen was always a secondary player that used a 3-peat experience and system to have a decent regular season in 94' (while the playoffs exposed his natural, non-leadership inclination, and 1995 showed his true carry ability after the 3-peat was further in the rear view).

[Reggie43]

If I didnt know any better I would hate Jordan too with all this bullshit being spewed against his teammates just to push an agenda.

Jordan is a tier above everyone so there is absolutely no need to argue and protect him as if somebody is closing in on his legacy.

Only Kareem and Russel have a decent case imo but other than those two please dont even bother.

[Smoke117]

When did Pippen average 24 on 70% over any 3-game stretch of his 17-year career, let alone 3 straight games in the Finals to win FMVP like Kawhi

So no, he couldn't be better than Kawhi that year, and obviously Kawhi is better today too.

You can't get over the fact that all the top tier players are better scorers or shooters than Pip, and that's what you need to play on that top level

And best player on the bad boys? Isiah was the #1 prodigy pick out of Indiana (national champs) and a HOF-level immediately, while Pippen was a 7 ppg rookie and undeveloped player.. Isiah would've led Pippen and that would never have changed..

Pippen was always a secondary player that used a 3-peat experience and system to have a decent regular season in 94' (while the playoffs exposed his natural, non-leadership inclination, and 1995 showed his true carry ability after the 3-peat was further in the rear view).


LMFAO, is this clown now trying to argue a 2014 Kawhi Leonard is better than a peak Scottie Pippen? Holy shit, this clown has lost the plot completely at this point. It's like he doesn't realize that all the attention was on Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili at this time. Leonard was basically ignored and an after though in that 2014 series. :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

:oldlol: ... I guess the thread went from "how many wins does Pip get with a lottery team instead of a 3-peat system", to "what kinds of championship teams could Pippen be the best player on"??

Phoenix said Pip could be the best player on the 04' Pistons if you replaced prince with Pip, and that those Pistons would be even more amazing that way

Now this might be a true assertion, but it shows how weak pip was- in the history of the NBA, the 04' Pistons are the only team that Pippen would be the best player if you replaced the weakest starter with Pip??... This lone example shows how weak pip was, not how good he was

essentially, he can't be the best player on a champion unless you gather Sheed', Big Ben, Chauncey, Rip and Prince all on one team - then pip can be added and he'd be the best player... That's the lone scenario in the history of the league where that works - so good luck putting that together if you're a GM... :oldlol:

although he wouldn't be the best player because Chauncey, Sheed, and Rip were killer clutch players and superior offensive players or scorers - since Pip would literally be the 4th option in the clutch, no one would consider him the best player - Chauncey and Sheed would be considered better... Pip wasn't a top guy type of guy - he was a system guy

For some reason I first read the question as which kinds of teams could Pip lead to a title with a 'best player' moniker, so I made a distincton between that and a 'first option' in terms of being a great scorer. I don't know why, maybe my comprehension was off yesterday lol or thats just where my brain wanted to go. Anyways thats where the 2004 Pistons came from, I was thinking of a team that pretty much won off defense where it didnt require a dominant cut throat scorer as its 'best player'.

But, if you took 94 or 95 Pip and dropped him on,say, the 2003 Magic or the 2009 Heat? They'd be hard-pressed to get 30 wins. Those kinds of teams, to be competitive, needed Tmac or Wade to have banana offensive seasons just to get over the 40 win hump. Those rosters were way too putrid offensively and needed solo scoring acts capable of carrying a team through dominant scoring. Wade especially needed 2 way brilliance and produced an all-time level perimeter season on both sides. Pip clearly wasn't * that * to dominate defensively then go out and drop 30 on 49% or whatever Wade did that year.

[iamgine]

Pippen developed into a legit franchise player. He's like Kevin Garnett. Not the best scorer, but a great offensive player and an all time great defender.

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody could consider Pippen better than 4th on the 04 Pistons due to offense but a top 10-15 list in 03 or 04 would have had Ben Wallace on it but none of the other 3....

Ben Wallace with almost no offense can be the Pistons franchise player but Pippen who was a higher scorer than anyone on that team ever was couldnt be when hes also a all time elite defender and great playmaker....

The lengths this guy goes to pretend defense wasnt factored into anyone's opinion on who the better players were is amazing. Forever listing PPG as if the entire basketball world wasnt on Pippen nuts for his all around ability.

If only due to how much running there is now it would be tough to hold Pippen to the 20-22 a game he scored in his prime.

Hed be on highlights nightly going coast to coast and probably playing point half the game. Scottie is likely a 24-25, 9, and 8 player today. Which shouldnt be surprising when he was a 22/8/6 player who had a playmaking limiting halfcourt offense that required most of his damage be done in transition and early in the clock.

Let him run like the Bucks with a gang of shooters spacing the floor and nobody to tell him to limit the transition threes. Hed run wild.



He's a top 10 open court player. People don't realize that the triangle offense was actually bad as far as suiting his skill set as a scorer. Drexler and Scottie had similar games and you could have replaced Drexler easily with Scottie in those run and gun Blazer teams and he would have put up similar numbers.


People dont realize it because Scottie Pippen mental highlights are little more than a dunk on Ewing to most people under 35 while others are content to simply bullshit.

The idea that Scotties scoring was based on the triangle could simply not come from anyone alive and watching in the 90s or from someone honest. One of the two just cant be the case if you hold that opinion.

Scottie would have been more productive replacing someone like Giannis now or Drexler in the 90s as you mentioned. Scottie was a freelancer not someone who needed a rigid halfcourt set to prosper.

[ImKobe]

Are we talking about a lottery team drafting rookie Pippen or are we talking about 1993 Pippen after playing with Jordan? MJ had a lot to do with his development as a great defensive player because he had to guard the best player in the world in almost every practice and became a better player because of it.


Some people are comparing him to KG here... KG was a much better all-around scorer, you can go look up his mid-range/jump-shooting numbers and they are consistently around 43-46% for most of his career(on high volume, from 1000-1500 a season in his prime), he was also a much better FT shooter. Pippen's mid-range numbers are laughable, even if you compare old Pippen to old KG.

Garnett was an MVP-level player, it's not close if we're being honest.

[TheMan]

He was the first option on a 55 win team you insecure idiot.
He was that Bulls team's best all around player but in crunch time, Kukoc usually got the call, you tranny loving kunt. Go watch game 3 of the 94 ECSFs, Kukoc nailed the game winner while Pip was pouting on the sidelines.

A clear first option gets the ball in those situations, explain to me why he didn't?

I'll tell you why, he was not a very good ISO player, in the video I provided for you, Pip gets the ball with about 10 seconds left on the shot clock, he has Mason on him out beyond the 3pt line and the best he can do is an awkward contested three point shot that had no chance of going in, on top on that, he didn't even get the shot off in time...

FOH

https://youtu.be/jEi9uJVIwOg

[Hey Yo]

He was that Bulls team's best all around player but in crunch time, Kukoc usually got the call, you tranny loving kunt. Go watch game 3 of the 94 ECSFs, Kukoc nailed the game winner while Pip was pouting on the sidelines.

A clear first option gets the ball in those situations, explain to me why he didn't?

I'll tell you why, he was not a very good ISO player, in the video I provided for you, Pip gets the ball with about 10 seconds left on the shot clock, he has Mason on him out beyond the 3pt line and the best he can do is an awkward contested three point shot that had no chance of going in, on top on that, he didn't even get the shot off in time...

FOH

https://youtu.be/jEi9uJVIwOg
So you're saying that Shaq wasn't first option for the Lakers cause he wouldn't be called upon for the last shot???




:wtf:

[bigkingsfan]

He was that Bulls team's best all around player but in crunch time, Kukoc usually got the call, you tranny loving kunt. Go watch game 3 of the 94 ECSFs, Kukoc nailed the game winner while Pip was pouting on the sidelines.

A clear first option gets the ball in those situations, explain to me why he didn't?

I'll tell you why, he was not a very good ISO player, in the video I provided for you, Pip gets the ball with about 10 seconds left on the shot clock, he has Mason on him out beyond the 3pt line and the best he can do is an awkward contested three point shot that had no chance of going in, on top on that, he didn't even get the shot off in time...

FOH

https://youtu.be/jEi9uJVIwOg
This isn't that uncommon, Shaq/Kobe. Webber/Bibby.
First option doesn't mean designated player to take GW. Some players are better with one sec left than others.

[TheMan]

LMFAO, is this clown now trying to argue a 2014 Kawhi Leonard is better than a peak Scottie Pippen? Holy shit, this clown has lost the plot completely at this point. It's like he doesn't realize that all the attention was on Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili at this time. Leonard was basically ignored and an after though in that 2014 series. :oldlol:
You realize that LBJ was Kawhi's main defender that series??? How is it that GOAT versatile defender L39ron's main defensive assignment is an afterthought? And that afterthought won FMVP to boot :roll:

[RRR3]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ElasticDecimalBabirusa-max-1mb.gif

:roll:

So MJ had top 30 all time player Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper AND first option on a 55 win team Toni Kukoc? :eek: And Phil Jackson as coach? :biggums: Jesus Christ.

[TheMan]

So you're saying that Shaq wasn't first option for the Lakers cause he wouldn't be called upon for the last shot???




:wtf:
He definitely was first option, Shaq could create his own shot down on the block but he sucked at free throws. Plus you have Kobe, a great ISO player himself, this shit ain't complicated

Let me ask you, is Pippen a great ISO player within a set offense? Pip was great in the open court, not so much within a half court offense, especially when the defense is geared towards taking the ball out of his hands. He wasn't even that great on the block, stronger SFs or PFs routinely got him off balance because Pip wasn't known for his strength, he got manhandled by X un the 92 playoffs vs NY.

[Bronbron23]

Pippen was never a first option...if so, explain why PJax would draw up plays for Toni Kukoc instead of Pip in late game situations? He wasn't first option with the Bulls, Rockets and Blazers...
You can be a first option without having to take the last shot all the time. It was one play that year. The guy took a team to the playoffs without another star and he had great offensive stats and played elite defence to boot. No he's no mj or LeBron offensively but who is really

[TheMan]

:roll:

So MJ had top 30 all time player Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper AND first option on a 55 win team Toni Kukoc? :eek: And Phil Jackson as coach? :biggums: Jesus Christ.Yeah and tell me, did they win the Finals that year, did they even make it after having had won 3 in a row while being led by the GOAT? Wait, they at least made it to that year's ECFs right? Lol

Besides Pip, who else was a perennial All Star while being a teammate to MJ? I thought so...

OTOH, look at your mancrush, LBJ played with FMVP and top 5 NBA player Wade, GOAT 3pt shooter Allen, Top 3 PF franchise player Bosh while having Pat Riley overlooking the whole operations...and after promising not 5, not 6, not 7, not 8 chips...produced just 2 :( All this while saying it would be easy. :roll:

FOH scrub

[RRR3]

LeBron :mad:
Not sure what LeBron has to do with anything. Stay on track, slugger.

[3ball]

He'd be on highlights nightly going coast to coast and probably playing point half the game. Scottie is likely a 24-25, 9, and 8 player today. Which shouldnt be surprising when he was a 22/8/6 player who had a playmaking limiting halfcourt offense that required most of his damage be done in transition and early in the clock.

The idea that Scotties scoring was based on the triangle could simply not come from anyone alive and watching in the 90s or from someone honest. One of the two just cant be the case if you hold that opinion.


:biggums:

The bolded red and green above are contradictory

If Pippen had limitations in the halfcourt and needed transition or early offense to score (like you said in red above), then that sounds like a role player type that needs the triangle to score and put him in the optimal spots that maximize his chances..

and that's what the triangle was for - to get shots for the role players or inconsistent scorers like Pippen/Draymond.. It was NOT to get shots for MJ - MJ was infact limited by the triangle, but was skilled enough to still get scoring champion production within it.

What star has a weakness scoring in the halfcourt like Pippen?.. Maybe Draymond, whose scoring ability as a star player is almost as bad is Pippen's.. Draymond would similarly benefit from the triangle just like Pippen did, and also from playing with assist-target MJ.. This is similar to many people calling Dray a system player for the Warriors and benefitting from their system and assist target Curry.





He'd be on highlights nightly going coast to coast and probably playing point half the game. Scottie is likely a 24-25, 9, and 8 player today. Which shouldnt be surprising when he was a 22/8/6 player who had a playmaking limiting halfcourt offense that required most of his damage be done in transition and early in the clock.

The idea that Scotties scoring was based on the triangle could simply not come from anyone alive and watching in the 90s or from someone honest. One of the two just cant be the case if you hold that opinion.


transition is only 20% of a team's offense, maybe 25%, even for the fastest teams

halfcourt is still most of a team's offense and the triangle helped guys like Pippen who couldn't create their own shot that well.. you just said in the bolded above that he needs transition and early offense to get his - so you agree that he struggles against set defenses in the halfcourt, and therefore needed something like the triangle to get his, just like Kerr and the other role players

that was the objective of the triangle - to get role players shots, not super-scorers like Jordan, and it was Jordan's job to fit his scoring within the system.. role player types like pippen who "required most of his damage be done in transition and early in the clock", therefore benefitted from the triangle more than MJ, who was a 37 ppg, Wilt-like scorer without the triangle.. the triangle turned him from a 37 ppg scorer into a 32 ppg guy

Anything other than that is a false account of the triangle and it's purpose





Forever listing PPG as if the entire basketball world wasnt on Pippen nuts for his all around ability.


people went "nuts" for his all-round ability just like people do Draymond now, except Pip had a few more highlights

so it wasn't "going nuts".. If it was "going nuts", would Isiah and Magic say the Bulls were a 1-man team in the middle (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=01m33s) of the 93' Finals?..

Obviously, they wouldn't do that if people were "going nuts" about Pippen.. MJ was the guy scoring 10-20 more ppg than Pippen for all 6 Finals series - no one in history is even close to that gap over their 2nd option.. By comparision, Lebron only scored 2-6 more than his 2nd option in his 3 wins.

[guy]

Pippen was a legit franchise player who took a step back in his game to complement the goat and win. Instead of early exits in the playoffs as the main guy he decided he wanted to win 6 rings as the secondary star. Pretty easy to understand if you lived the era and know your basketball lol

He didn

[Reggie43]

[QUOTE=guy]He didn

[SpaceJam]

Pippen was a great second option player thanks to his all-around game, but he needed someone who could take care of the offensive load.

Madonna?

[Vino24]

No pip. No chip.

[Round Mound]

Pippen had great handles what are you talking about? He was the best passing-creating Point Forward of the 90s. He was the best defensive SF of the 90s. A solid rebounder and a good scorer. He wasn't a great shooter though or clutch. Pippen was the perfect complentary player to a scorer cause other than scoring he was the best SF of the 90s. Stop trying to underrate Pippen :rolleyes: :no: :confusedshrug:

[jayfan]

Pippen was a legit franchise player who took a step back in his game to complement the goat and win. Instead of early exits in the playoffs as the main guy he decided he wanted to win 6 rings as the secondary star. Pretty easy to understand if you lived the era and know your basketball lol

:lol

[jayfan]

Pippen had great handles what are you talking about? He was the best passing-creating Point Forward of the 90s. He was the best defensive SF of the 90s. A solid rebounder and a good scorer. He wasn't a great shooter though or clutch. Pippen was the perfect complentary player to a scorer cause other than scoring he was the best SF of the 90s. Stop trying to underrate Pippen :rolleyes: :no: :confusedshrug:

Better idea - Let's stop overrating Pippen. He's likely insulted by your description of him as a complementary player. He thought he was the very alpha, #1, first option guy that you've implied, correctly, he wasn't. That's why he threw such a hissy-fit when the play was drawn up for Kukoc instead of him. With Jordan gone, he could emerge from his shadow, right?

Wrong.

He may be the greatest Beta ever, but he's a Beta. Saying so isn't underrating him.


.

[Charlie Sheen]

Who cares what Pippen's value on a lottery team would be? He wasn't Jordan. Duh.

That doesn't mean you can just marginalize his influence on vaulting good teams to legit contenders in portland and champions in chicago.

[3ball]

Who cares what Pippen's value on a lottery team would be? He wasn't Jordan. Duh.

That doesn't mean you can just marginalize his influence on vaulting good teams to legit contenders in portland and champions in chicago.
You're missing the double standard that's applied to Pippen by lebron fans that want to boost him

If Lebron had to win MANY series with his 2nd option getting 15 ppg on 37%, everyone would say his 2nd option was unreliable and/or should be a 3rd or 4th option on a championship team, not a 2nd option

But MJ had to win many series with Pippen getting 15 on 37%, yet new fans have a double standard and say Pippen was all-world, while saying Lebron's 2nd option sucked..

And the defense excuse doesn't work because the Cavs and Heat had great defenses with numerous all-defensive players (4), including far superior rim protection than MJ ever had... Having good or better defensive personnel OVERALL negates a disadvantage at any 1 position.. i.e. the Celtics had #1 defense in the league with Kyrie.. Defense is a team effort and therefore is less important in individual comparisons

[Charlie Sheen]

You're missing the double standard that's applied to Pippen by lebron fans that want to boost him

If Lebron had to win MANY series with his 2nd option getting 15 ppg on 37%, everyone would say his 2nd option was unreliable and/or should be a 3rd or 4th option on a championship team, not a 2nd option

But MJ had to win many series with Pippen getting 15 on 37%, yet new fans have a double standard and say Pippen was all-world, while saying Lebron's 2nd option sucked..

And the defense excuse doesn't work because the Cavs and Heat had great defenses with numerous all-defensive players (4), including far superior rim protection than MJ ever had... Having good or better defensive personnel OVERALL negates a disadvantage at any 1 position.. i.e. the Celtics had #1 defense in the league with Kyrie.. Defense is a team effort and therefore is less important in individual comparisons

You assume people have an all world opinion of Pippen 20 years after the last Bulls title to slight mj? Maybe a loud, very small, minority. Over time, most people opinions changed on Pippen because he isn't beating the shit out of their favorite team anymore. I'm including myself in that statement.

[3ball]

You assume people have an all world opinion of Pippen 20 years after the last Bulls title to slight mj? Maybe a loud, very small, minority. Over time, most people opinions changed on Pippen because he isn't beating the shit out of their favorite team anymore. I'm including myself in that statement.


Pippen never beat the shit out of any team.. Ever.. No fan ever said "Ooohh damn.. Pippen just made the big play AGAIN... He's crushing us tonight time and again"

No one ever said that or anything like that... That's just you hoping 20 years will make people forget

He was never mvp of any series - his best playoff stats were 21-22 ppg in a series that MJ averaged 35 or 40.. if say, Paul George averaged 21 in a series while his teammate scored 35 or 40, no one would say PG13 "beat the shit out of my team"

You're just romanticizing Pippen after the fact because my trashing of him annoys you.. but the stats tell the story - 17.6 on 40.8% for the entire 96-98' playoffs - so offensively, he was Mo Williams from the 09' ECF for the entire 2nd three-peat.. :eek: ...

Like, don't you wonder why lebron lost to the #4 SRS team in the 09' ECF with Mo's 18.0 on 37.5%, while MJ beat the #1 SRS team in 1989 with Pip's 15.0 on 39.7%, or the 96' Finals with Pip's 15.7 on 34.3%????...

Lebron had great stats but Stan Van Gundy said he preferred Lebron getting a bunch of iso stats than doubling him and seeing the ball move.. But if lebron had an off-ball skillset and got his stats off-ball like mj, then the ball would've been moving WHILE lebron is getting his same stats - Stan wouldn't be able to do shit - MJ's off-ball game made him inexploitable (Stan can't reduce ball movement by.letting him iso because he's moving off-ball)

MJ's style resulted in more effective team ball (better teams) and teammates playing closer to their ceiling (better teams)
.

[StrongLurk]

How many threads for OP disguised as referencing a player...but we all know he is talking and thinking about Lebron?

[Vino24]

No pip no chip

[LAmbruh]

No pip no chip
Bingo was his Name'o

[3ball]

No pip no chip
That's less star power than anyone in history needed to win multiple rings, except for Hakeem (when MJ was out of the league), and the great Kobe (MJ's clone)........ (and I believe Pau > Pip anyway, but it doesn't matter because Kobe was dope - it shows how great Kobe was)

[Duncan21formvp]

Pippen would be working at burgerking.