Lebron's goat criteria

[3ball]

Who overcame the bigger talent deficit?

I think Dirk clearly achieved Lebron's goat criteria better in 2011, so I have him goat over Lebron.. again, based on Lebron's goat criteria of overcoming the most

[scuzzy]

Lebron's goat criteria


Posts: 21,881

[RRR3]

Agreed.

Dirk>LeBron>MJ

[StrongLurk]

I voted the first option because of OP.

[G0ATbe]

The guys going against a 73 win team

[3ball]

Agreed.

Dirk>LeBron>MJ

Exactly

I'm showing that Lebron's goat criteria is nonsense

Except you have it wrong - it's mj>dirk>lebron


3) Bron beat 3 perennial all-stars (#1 SRS team)... WITH 3 perennial all-stars

2) Dirk. beat 3 perennial all-stars (#1 SRS team)... with 1-man team (2 former all-star teammates, 58-win, 2 seed)

1) MJ beat 3 perennial all-stars* (#1 SRS team)... with 1-man team (0 former all-star teammates, 47-win, 6-seed)

* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper


And MJ only had Pippen when he beat 3 current all-stars (3 HOF) and 2 former all-stars on the 91' Bad Boys (5 all-stars total)
.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Nobody cares that MJ beat the pretender Cavaliers. That's like getting excited about LeBron beating Toronto every year.

[Ainosterhaspie]

The team starting Joel Anthony clearly was not a stacked team, especially with its best player in a weird funk playing the worst series of his life. Really good top three. Zero depth.

[3ball]

Nobody cares that MJ beat the pretender Cavaliers. That's like getting excited about LeBron beating Toronto every year.
Lebron beat Toronto with his championship, Big 3 super-teams, who were usually favored

Whereas MJ beat the #1 SRS team with nothing... The equivalent of 6th-seeded Brooklyn beating the #1 SRS Bucks last year...

And then Brooklyn becoming the goat dynasty and Milwaukee being forgetten, with that series being the turning point in history..

[Ainosterhaspie]

Somebody missed the 2018 LeBronto series.

[egokiller]

Winning a series where 3 starters are injured and 1 guy suspended + needing Kyrie to make the final shot because you have never made a go ahead shot in the finals in your entire life..... yeah that excludes you from the conversation.:applause:

[egokiller]

Nobody cares that MJ beat the pretender Cavaliers. That's like getting excited about LeBron beating Toronto every year.

Yet you care that LeBron needed the pretender Cavaliers to win against a depleted team? As if playing in a weak conference on his way to playing a depleted team is anything to be proud of? :oldlol:

[AlternativeAcc.]

LeBron has better longevity AND peak than Jordan

Why bring Dirk into it? He doesn't fit the criteria in the 1st place, so irrelevant premise is irrelevant

And Dirk averaged 23ppg on 40% in that series, non-factor on D


Simply being a part of a winning team once doesn't give you GOAT credentials


To be GOAT you have to be the best without question for many consecutive years, carry teams to championships multiple times, and have longevity

THAT's LeBron's GOAT criteria, and neither MJ nor Dirk lives up to it


Santa isn't real squirt, put away the Space Jam pajamas and start living in reality. You're getting progressively more embarrassing with these half-assed threads

[egokiller]

LeBron has better longevity AND peak than Jordan

Why bring Dirk into it? He doesn't fit the criteria in the 1st place, so irrelevant premise is irrelevant

And Dirk averaged 23ppg on 40% in that series, non-factor on D


Simply being a part of a winning team once doesn't give you GOAT credentials


To be GOAT you have to be the best without question for many consecutive years, carry teams to championships multiple times, and have longevity

THAT's LeBron's GOAT criteria, and neither MJ nor Dirk lives up to it


Santa isn't real squirt, put away the Space Jam pajamas and start living in reality. You're getting progressively more embarrassing with these half-assed threads

No one gives a shit about longevity if you've lost in the finals 6 times.

:roll:

To be GOAT you need to at least 3 peat on 2 different occasions and ensure that you win FMVP each time.

What you don't want to do is lose 6 times and give up the FMVP to role players.

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron's goat criteria is this: he checks pretty much all the boxes. Somehow all the criticism and nitpicking has actually boosted his case over time. He has every category you can ask for and then some.

Goat level peak
goat level longevity
goat level impact stats
top tier all time statistically in general
faced great competition
won multiple chips as the man
goat level accolades (mvp, all league, etc)
years of 2 elite 2 way play
raised his game in the postseason
many great playoff moments
failures he overcame
best elimination game player to ever do it
carried teams

and the more specific you get the longer the list does and most top 10 guys either are flat out missing a few of these things from their resume, or have it to lesser a degree in comparison. Not to mention he did all these things in an era where his position was loaded with talent......and still may add to his resume perhaps because he still has years left on his contract. Even if you don't think he's goat, can't reasonably argue his place in the conversation isn't legit.

[3ball]

LeBron has better longevity AND peak than Jordan


Which peak of Lebron's tops MJ from 88-93'

I'll wait

And lebron's longevity hurts him because he only has 3 rings to show after 17 years and all those stats - it'll look even worse playing 20 years and only getting 3 - it means he isn't doing something right (like banging a lot of chicks but almost never pleasing them - in Lebron's case, his skillset is limited to ball-dominance, which limits championship ball movement)





To be GOAT you have to be the best without question for many consecutive years, carry teams to championships multiple times, and have longevity

THAT's LeBron's GOAT criteria, and neither MJ nor Dirk lives up to it


MJ won 6 rings and got mvp's from 88-98'... Lebron has 3 rings and only won mvp's from 09-13'

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lebron's goat criteria is this: he checks pretty much all the boxes. Somehow all the criticism and nitpicking has actually boosted his case over time. He has every category you can ask for and then some.

Goat level peak
goat level longevity
goat level impact stats
top tier all time statistically in general
faced great competition
won multiple chips as the man
goat level accolades (mvp, all league, etc)
years of 2 elite 2 way play
raised his game in the postseason
many great playoff moments
failures he overcame
best elimination game player to ever do it
carried teams

and the more specific you get the longer the list does and most top 10 guys either are flat out missing a few of these things from their resume, or have it to lesser a degree in comparison. Not to mention he did all these things in an era where his position was loaded with talent......and still may add to his resume perhaps because he still has years left on his contract. Even if you don't think he's goat, can't reasonably argue his place in the conversation isn't legit.

I don't subscribe to Lebron being GOAT. Probably not even Top 3. That being said, this is one of the better arguments I've seen.

Not bad dude.

[3ball]

I don't subscribe to Lebron being GOAT. Probably not even Top 3. That being said, this is one of the better arguments I've se:oldlol: en.

Not bad dude.
Weak trolling obviously

Don't patronize the young bloke like that... :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Weak trolling obviously

Nah.

Weak trolling is what you've done since your join date. Lebron isn't better than Jordan. Give it a rest.



Don't patronize the young bloke like that... :oldlol:

The post was fair. I don't agree with a lot of it, but I don't think "GOAT level" = "GOAT" either.

[Duncan21formvp]

Dirk easily. Lebron overcame nothing. Lebron won because his teammate outplayed the league mvp winner and hit the game winner over him.

[Duncan21formvp]

Lebron lost to Dwight Howard with HCA and has 2 bronze medals. If you support that then you support a failure.

[3ball]

Nah.

Weak trolling is what you've done since your join date. Lebron isn't better than Jordan. Give it a rest.


sdot's lebron argument:. lebron won chips as the man and carried teams

kuniva:. best argument I've seen bro.. wow


gtfo - sdot even lied - he said lebron had goat accolades, but how?... MJ has more MVP's and way more FMVP's, rings, and seasons with both 1st team all-nba and all-defense (9 consecutive seasons)

It's simply a troll to say that someone made a good case for lebron as goat - most of sdot's arguments apply more to mj than lebron, but a blind Lebron stan or a someone with mj-fatigue won't see this obvious fact

Btw, mj was league mvp from 88-98' (first and last mvp) and lebron from 09-13'.. now who had true longevity???.. :confusedshrug:

And you say mj > lebron.... true, but for the reasons that I stated and was banned for years ago though, that you johnny-come-latelies now see as common knowledge (ball-dominance, marginalizes some teammates, his skillset yields weak ball movement, weak shooting and FT shooting, doesn't command doubles/defenses can stay at home, etc, etc, etc).
.

[tpols]

I don't subscribe to Lebron being GOAT. Probably not even Top 3. That being said, this is one of the better arguments I've seen.

Not bad dude.


That's a weak argument.

He had the potential but threw it away when he team hopped and still underachieved.

His negative intangibles crippled his teams chances at dynasties compared to his top tier historical peers.

[3ball]

That's a weak argument.

He had the potential but threw it away when he team hopped and still underachieved.

His negative intangibles crippled his teams chances at dynasties compared to his top tier historical peers.
I was on the Lebron goat train back in 07' like everyone else - enamored with his size/athleticism/skillset

So we excused him for the 07' Finals, even though it was revealing like the 19' ECF was for Giannis

I thought he was the "real" 'next MJ'... I actually thought Kobe was the fake and was envious/hating on his game and his expansive repertoire at the time

But then Lebron somehow didn't win in 09 and 10'... Didn't we all expect him to win those years? Wasn't it weird when he didn't??.. that's when I saw cracks in his "next mj" armor...

Then "the decision" rubbed me the wrong way, but I was still cheering for him in the 2011 Finals.. And that's when I saw it - he sucked without a live dribble - Wade was often creating and passing off to him for a quick move/score and he seemed confused - he didn't know what to do and actually WAS PASSING IT BACK TO WADE...

Exposed... That light switch in my head went on - FRAUD!!!... This ***** is a mindless ball-dominator!!.. weak shooter!.. Once I started thinking about it like that, every stat I looked at backed me up... i.e. everyone's APG cratered alongside him while their assisted rate increased - so lebron turned teammates into play-finishers - lower teammate assists resulted in low TEAM assists and getting massively out-assisted in his Finals... Then I discovered time of possession on nba.com.. :facepalm ... This stat (more than any other) shows he's no Jordan, Curry, Kawhi, Durant, Kobe (players with off-ball skillset that can play the best brand of ball)

[sdot_thadon]

I don't subscribe to Lebron being GOAT. Probably not even Top 3. That being said, this is one of the better arguments I've seen.

Not bad dude.
:cheers: I don't even have a problem with arguments that he's only top 5ish or so as long as they are coherent. Hell I've seen him rated 7 and it be a reasonable argument based on consistent criteria. I just can't begin to process the dumb arguments though. Goat is the most subjective argument in sports, as long as your criteria doesn't fold on itself when asked to expand upon it, I can respect it.



The post was fair. I don't agree with a lot of it, but I don't think "GOAT level" = "GOAT" either. Exaclty. It just means you're among the top handful, it was purposely worded that way.


gtfo - sdot even lied - he said lebron had goat accolades, but how?... MJ has more MVP's and way more FMVP's, rings, and seasons with both 1st team all-nba and all-defense (9 consecutive seasons)
In your fit of rage you seemed to have misplaced the word level, meaning not neccesarily the goat but a level fitting of discussion. All of his accolades land him in a place where maybe only a couple of guys to ever play have more of certain trophies. Nothing more needs be said.


Btw, mj was league mvp from 88-98' (first and last mvp) and lebron from 09-13'.. now who had true longevity???..
the guy who's put in the most seasons at a high level. They have metrics for that sort of thing too. Remember Lebron is entering his 17th season when Mj only had more or less 13 high level seasons and that's giving full credit to partial years. He had 2 partial seasons that themselves don't quite add up to a half season of ball, so realistically he had 11.5 seasons of top level basketball. 13.5 if you count the years that supposedly don't count. Do the math, that's a pretty significant gap.


That's a weak argument.

He had the potential but threw it away when he team hopped and still underachieved.

His negative intangibles crippled his teams chances at dynasties compared to his top tier historical peers.
I'd love to hear a rebuttal regarding the weakness of it using the actual points I made. You basically projected your personal likes on his career there and used the most vague, unmeasurable, opinion based response you could possibly have given. You can do better than that.

[Round Mound]

Longevity is not a skill or determines who is the better player. Jordan was the most dominant guard ever, the best perimeter defender among guards and the best perimeter player ever. Karl Malone had great longevity but everyone who was watching the game knew prime Barkley was better. Lebron is great and a top 10 player ever but he aint close to Mike. Mike left an aura of dominance unmatched like that of Wilt and Kareem in their primes.

[3ball]

Exaclty. goat-level just means you're among the top handful, it was purposely worded that way.


Based on the English language, there's only 1 goat ("greatest of all time" is a singular expression)

So "goat-level" for rings and accolades is 6 rings in the modern era... 6 fmvp... and 9 seasons of both all-nba and all-defense.

Therefore, Lebron's 3 rings/fmvp's and 5 two-way seasons is nowhere near goat... Right?... Is 3 rings close to 6?... Is 3 fmvp close to 6?... Is 5 seasons of all-nba/all-defense close to 9?

So lebron is NOT goat-level in rings or accolades...

A better term for Lebron is "all-time-level" regarding rings and accolades... otoh, you could argue his stats are "goat" or "goat-level" - I don't think they're even close, but there's ways you could argue it..

but the rings or accolades aren't even close, and rings essentially shows the effectiveness of the stats.. Lebron's stats are less effective due to the various reasons at the bottom of this post







the guy who's put in the most seasons at a high level. They have metrics for that sort of thing too. Remember Lebron is entering his 17th season when Mj only had more or less 13 high level seasons and that's giving full credit to partial years. He had 2 partial seasons that themselves don't quite add up to a half season of ball, so realistically he had 11.5 seasons of top level basketball. 13.5 if you count the years that supposedly don't count. Do the math, that's a pretty significant gap.


Lebron hasn't been mvp-level since 2013 - he had a 5 year window of mvp-ball (09-13')....

MJ's was 11 years (88-98')

So MJ was mvp-level for longer and therefore had better longevity as the league's best player






I'd love to hear a rebuttal regarding the weakness of it using the actual points I made. You basically projected your personal likes on his career there and used the most vague, unmeasurable, opinion based response you could possibly have given. You can do better than that.



Lebron's tangible, non-vague weaknesses and reasons he isn't goat


- sub-par shooting and FT touch

- doesn't dominate the post

- doesn't have a good mid-range game

- only elite with a live dribble

- turnover-prone; 3+ TO for basically every playoff run

- developed "choker" label from a few key chokes, underperformances, and/or losses as the favorite

- lacks killer instinct, "assassin" mentality

- not a great combo leaper - primarily a 1-foot leaper

- bulky physique not ideal for mitigating high traffic or unspaced areas without bully-ball

- lacks elite footwork/fakes, which limits repertoire and the ways he can get off a jumper compared to Kobe or MJ

- not a pure scorer and naturally a low-volume shooter because of it - i.e. limited repertoire/footwork/fakes and also passive/non-aggressive nature

- shoots poorly when forced to undertake high volume, due to the greater jumpshooting required, and the aforementioned limitations on repertoire/footwork/fakes

- Doesn't command double-teams due to lack of pure shooting or scoring

- turns teammates into spot-up shooters due to his ball-dominant skillset and lack of off-ball game

- can't play off teammates due to ball-dominant skillset

- fields low-assist, low ball-movement teams due to his ball-dominant skillset

- loses in the championship to teams that have more team assists and better ball movement - his teams get massively out-assisted in the championship

- lacks off-ball and catch-and-shoot skillset, so he doesn't fit with other ball-handlers - shooters are the only player-type that excels alongside him

- puts a ceiling on his teams by having a skillset that only shooters can excel alongside

- his rosters have high turnover because his skillset restriction to ball-dominance fits with so few player-types (shooters)

- nobody wants to play with him because they know that only shooters excel with him and he turns everyone into spot-up shooters

- only an elite defender from 09-13'... 1-way player in recent years

- only played at MVP level for 5 years (09-13') - hasn't won mvp in 7 years (since 13')

- his ball-dominant skillset (teammates become spot-up shooters) doesn't develop teammates or teams, so he must team-hop for ready-made veteran stars and teams

[DaHeezy]

Lebron's goat criteria


Posts: 21,881

:lol

[sdot_thadon]

Longevity is not a skill or determines who is the better player. Jordan was the most dominant guard ever, the best perimeter defender among guards and the best perimeter player ever. Karl Malone had great longevity but everyone who was watching the game knew prime Barkley was better. Lebron is great and a top 10 player ever but he aint close to Mike. Mike left an aura of dominance unmatched like that of Wilt and Kareem in their primes.
It definitely is a category of the goat discussion, formerly known as the Kareem Abdul Jabbar category. Being of high quality for a long amount of time is a point of value. Longevity is basically the reason many can't put Bird in their top 3, or the reason we talk so little about guys like Dr.j and Walton that most fans now have no idea what these guys did. Having the strong longevity he did have is what made most regard Malone higher all time than Barkley right after his retirement. I think Barkley was better, but he doesn't have a great case for being greater.

[egokiller]

At the end of the day, 3ball got to watch GOAT MJ while those arguing against him had to settle for watching LeBron instead and have to cope with him losing 6 times in the finals.

3ball wins again.

[sdot_thadon]

Based on the English language, there's only 1 goat ("greatest of all time" is a singular expression)

So "goat-level" for rings and accolades is 6 rings in the modern era... 6 fmvp... and 9 seasons of both all-nba and all-defense.

Therefore, Lebron's 3 rings/fmvp's and 5 two-way seasons is nowhere near goat... Right?... Is 3 rings close to 6?... Is 3 fmvp close to 6?... Is 5 seasons of all-nba/all-defense close to 9?

So lebron is NOT goat-level in rings or accolades...

A better term for Lebron is "all-time-level" regarding rings and accolades... otoh, you could argue his stats are "goat" or "goat-level" - I don't think they're even close, but there's ways you could argue it..

but the rings or accolades aren't even close, and rings essentially shows the effectiveness of the stats.. Lebron's stats are less effective due to the various reasons at the bottom of this post
So this was a long ass way of saying you can't grasp the term goat level. :oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

At the end of the day, 3ball got to watch GOAT MJ while those arguing against him had to settle for watching LeBron instead and have to cope with him losing 6 times in the finals.

3ball wins again.
at the end of the day Lebron ran you off your other account.:roll: what a puss.

[RRR3]

at the end of the day Lebron ran you off your other account.:roll: what a puss.
:roll:


Straight_Bawling

[egokiller]

at the end of the day Lebron ran you off your other account.:roll: what a puss.

Can't run me off an account I never had to begin with. At the end of the day, 3ball watched the GOAT, you watched mediocrity.

[sdot_thadon]

Can't run me off an account I never had to begin with. At the end of the day, 3ball watched the GOAT, you watched mediocrity.
I think your next user name should be Straight_Beeyotch :oldlol: I mean who lets a man they'll never meet in their life run them off an anonymous user name on the internet amongst other anonymous people? That's high level insecurity.:eek:

[egokiller]

I think your next user name should be Straight_Beeyotch :oldlol: I mean who lets a man they'll never meet in their life run them off an anonymous user name on the internet amongst other anonymous people? That's high level insecurity.:eek:

Except none of that ever happened. What we do know is that you keep desperately trying to defend a 6 time loser that you'll never meet. There's nothing more insecure then that. :lol Next time, just agree with what 3ball is posting and you won't feel so insecure.

[sdot_thadon]

Except none of that ever happened. What we do know is that you keep desperately trying to defend a 6 time loser that you'll never meet. There's nothing more insecure then that. :lol Next time, just agree with what 3ball is posting and you won't feel so insecure.
and lame as hell on top of what I've already stated. It's so sad to the point you should just come clean and start fresh, nobody's buying what you're selling bro. man up

[egokiller]

and lame as hell on top of what I've already stated. It's so sad to the point you should just come clean and start fresh, nobody's buying what you're selling bro. man up

Another insecure post. Keep desperately trying to defend a 6 time loser that you'll never meet. :applause:

[RRR3]

and lame as hell on top of what I've already stated. It's so sad to the point you should just come clean and start fresh, nobody's buying what you're selling bro. man up
It’s true. Almost everyone realizes he’s Straight Ballin (he also has an account called LBJFTW btw) so there’s no point in hiding it.

[sdot_thadon]

[QUOTE=RRR3]It

[Smoke117]

as if the board could be possibly laughing or cringing at him any more than they already do....but shhh you'll spoil his secret identity. :roll:

:lol

[PickernRoller]

Bran's GLOAT criteria:

6 Finals loses.
- 2 Final loss sweeps, owns the two biggest Final loss differentials in history (aka the "quit" variable).
The Greatest Finals Choke of All-time.
- with a superteam and FMVP effort from a Top 5 player, fellow superstar and FMVP in Wade.
Biggest superstar shortcutter and confessed colluder of all-time.
- Can't win without super teams. Stacks the deck with all-stars and superstars to the brim. Single-handily destroyed the already at the time (2011) , weak Eastern Conference.
Top 3 biggest backstabber of all-time
- Calls teammates "squad" and "my guys" - works behind the scenes to trade them, have the media talk sh1t by having little birds drop info or simply jumps ship and leave others hanging.
Top 2 empty stats
- Racks them stats up like few except Wilt, needs closers to bail him out in real crunch.
Limited skill set.
- It's either a Lebron ball, Pick and Roll fest, kick to the corner or BUST system. No off-ball game, limited post-game of what was for the majority of his career non-existant. Poor volume jumpshooter.
Coach Killer.
- Runaway serial killer with a taste for white coaches. They simply don't last long. "Stats don't lie about that".


In short, he has Oscar, Wilt, Elgin and Jerry West easily beat on the GLOAT list.

[3ball]

So this was a long ass way of saying you can't grasp the term goat level. :oldlol:
•There's only 3 guys ever to score more points, none in the postseason.
•You can literally count on 1 hand how many guys are ahead of him in any impact stats for their careers. (and i dont mean a single stat. i mean combined)
•There's only one guy with more fmvps, 2 if you give Russell his due.(which ironically would be the true goat collection of accolades)
•only 2 guys with more Mvps
•no players with more all nba 1st team selections
•no player with more all nba selections period.
•only 2 players with more allstar selections
•only 2 or 3 players to Lead their teams to more titles as the man.
wanna rethink all that drivel you posted?


- 6 rings is goat for modern era/3-pointer basketball - so lebron's 3 rings isn't goat-level

- 6 FMVP's and 5 MVP's (11 total) is the goat standard for modern era/3-pointer basketball - so lebron's 3 FMVP's and 4 MVP's (7 total) isn't goat-level

So again, Lebron isn't"goat-level" at rings (winning), or MVP/FMVP (accolades).. Again, "all-time" level is the right word for Lebron's rings and accolades... not goat level





move them goalposts bro, Lebron has better longevity than Mj and it's not even close. You can cherry pick a time period but we all know how long Lebron has been around and where he is on all the charts.


Lebron played more seasons but had a much shorter period of elite 2-way play (only 5 seasons with both 1st team all-nba and all-defense, versus 9 for MJ), and a shorter period of MVP-caliber play from 09-13' (5 years), versus 88-98' for MJ (11 years).

And you've conflated his longevity with accolades - having the most 1st teams is tied to games played (longevity)... And ur wrong anyway - MJ has more 1st teams (9 all-nba and 9 all-defense, 18 total)

Regarding advanced stats - only MJ is top 2 all-time in PER, VORP, BPM, and WS/48 for regular season and playoffs... Regarding raw stats - MJ is the PPG leader by a wide margin.






So rather than attempt to debunk my "weak" argument, you chose to run away from the square completely?:oldlol: Just listing every subjective, opinion based negative you can create isn't a reply to my post, kinda like you just said "no mas" and just repeated his vague, unverifiable reply. :oldlol:

If you must quote me, try addressing the content of the quote you find in error. Thanks.


I was responding to your assertion that tpols was vague - so I made it clear and it's funny because most of my assertions are directly backed by stats:

the stats show lebron doesn't shoot well from mid-range or FT, and doesn't dominate the post, while being turnover-prone.... he also shoots poorly at high volume due to the extra jumpshooting - his jumpshooting efficiency and overall efficiency is much lower in seasons where he took a lot of jumpers.. I can post all these jumpshooting stats with links to the source data.

The stats also show that teammates see their assists crater alongside lebron, so the TEAM has low assists and gets massively out-assisted in the championship - these are all statistical facts

But there's plenty more... The stats show that lebron lowers teammate assists while increasing their assisted rate - so he turns teammates into play-finishers/spot-up shooters, which doesn't develop teammates and requires team-hopping for ready made stars/teams

But there's more... NBA.com stats show that his time of possession is the highest of all-time (his 15' Finals was a record and 30% higher than 19' Harden's regular season).. his ball-dominant skillset doesn't fit with other ball-handlers - only shooters excel alongside him, which puts a ceiling on his teams and cause many players to avoid playing with him
.

[egokiller]

as if the board could be possibly laughing or cringing at him any more than they already do....but shhh you'll spoil his secret identity. :roll:

You are typing paragraphs defending a 6 time loser you will never meet. It doesn't get any more cringe than that.

:roll: :roll: :roll:


It’s true. Almost everyone realizes he’s Straight Ballin (he also has an account called LBJFTW btw) so there’s no point in hiding it.

You are the most bullied loser on here. No one cares about your false alt accusations. :roll:

[RRR3]

:mad:
Seething.

[CTbasketball92]

Lebron's goat criteria is this: he checks pretty much all the boxes. Somehow all the criticism and nitpicking has actually boosted his case over time. He has every category you can ask for and then some.

Goat level peak
goat level longevity
goat level impact stats
top tier all time statistically in general
faced great competition
won multiple chips as the man
goat level accolades (mvp, all league, etc)
years of 2 elite 2 way play
raised his game in the postseason
many great playoff moments
failures he overcame
best elimination game player to ever do it
carried teams

and the more specific you get the longer the list does and most top 10 guys either are flat out missing a few of these things from their resume, or have it to lesser a degree in comparison. Not to mention he did all these things in an era where his position was loaded with talent......and still may add to his resume perhaps because he still has years left on his contract. Even if you don't think he's goat, can't reasonably argue his place in the conversation isn't legit.

I think 3Ball is just trolling at this point. Really, after 2016 every argument against LeBron being top five ever flickered out

[egokiller]

I think 3Ball is just trolling at this point. Really, after 2016 every argument against LeBron being top five ever flickered out

They had 3 injured starters and a suspended 4th starter. Really any top 20 player could have come back and beaten that worn down injured team in the state they were in. Ask any fan in CLE they all say the same thing. :sleeping

[egokiller]

Bran's GLOAT criteria:

6 Finals loses.
- 2 Final loss sweeps, owns the two biggest Final loss differentials in history (aka the "quit" variable).
The Greatest Finals Choke of All-time.
- with a superteam and FMVP effort from a Top 5 player, fellow superstar and FMVP in Wade.
Biggest superstar shortcutter and confessed colluder of all-time.
- Can't win without super teams. Stacks the deck with all-stars and superstars to the brim. Single-handily destroyed the already at the time (2011) , weak Eastern Conference.
Top 3 biggest backstabber of all-time
- Calls teammates "squad" and "my guys" - works behind the scenes to trade them, have the media talk sh1t by having little birds drop info or simply jumps ship and leave others hanging.
Top 2 empty stats
- Racks them stats up like few except Wilt, needs closers to bail him out in real crunch.
Limited skill set.
- It's either a Lebron ball, Pick and Roll fest, kick to the corner or BUST system. No off-ball game, limited post-game of what was for the majority of his career non-existant. Poor volume jumpshooter.
Coach Killer.
- Runaway serial killer with a taste for white coaches. They simply don't last long. "Stats don't lie about that".


In short, he has Oscar, Wilt, Elgin and Jerry West easily beat on the GLOAT list.

It's comical how people will try to pretend he's not the GLOAT simply because they bought into the media hype.

[sdot_thadon]

useless obsessive blabber.
So in all those paragraphs you've posted proclaiming your disdain for my post, not a single sentence did anything to prove otherwise. Congrats on yet another empty post.:applause: I stated why Lebron deserves his place in history, you posted a book about Mj. You posting MJ's life story doesn't actually conflict with my post in any way at all, so apparently though it pains you, you agree. Good to know.

And one more thing:




- 6 FMVP's and 5 MVP's (11 total) is the goat standard for modern era/3-pointer basketball
That sad moment you realize there's a guy out there with even more. Bill Russell is good for somewhere over/under 8 fmvps plus 5 mvps, so again goat standard for accolades? I think not, especially when accolades are your collection of awards, not just the ones your stanatic wants to count on a given day.

[sdot_thadon]

I think 3Ball is just trolling at this point. Really, after 2016 every argument against LeBron being top five ever flickered out
I hope he is, then again who wastes this much time trolling?

[Vino24]

2016 seems to have broken a lot of people on this forum :confusedshrug:

[Turbo Slayer]

3ball, you need a oreo?

[Turbo Slayer]

2016 seems to have broken a lot of people on this forum :confusedshrug:
Yep agree with u vino

[3ball]

So in all those paragraphs you've posted proclaiming your disdain for my post, not a single sentence did anything to prove otherwise. Congrats on yet another empty post.:applause: I stated why Lebron deserves his place in history, you posted a book about Mj. You posting MJ's life story doesn't actually conflict with my post in any way at all, so apparently though it pains you, you agree. Good to know.

And one more thing:



That sad moment you realize there's a guy out there with even more. Bill Russell is good for somewhere over/under 8 fmvps plus 5 mvps, so again goat standard for accolades? I think not, especially when accolades are your collection of awards, not just the ones your stanatic wants to count on a given day.
Since you ignored and refuse to address anything I said, I'll take that as a concession and a "no mas" indication

Post #43 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13816348&postcount=43) was a direct, concise destruction of your points, so you ignored it - and since that shit was apparently irrefutable, it's given me an idea for another thread, so thanks bruh... You da man

Btw, the poll results are 12-7 in dirk's favor, so the point has been made.. Dirk indeed fits Lebron's goat criteria better than bron, but that was hella obvious anyway.. I just wanted to rub it in

[Mr Feeny]

LeBron has better longevity AND peak than Jordan

Why bring Dirk into it? He doesn't fit the criteria in the 1st place, so irrelevant premise is irrelevant

And Dirk averaged 23ppg on 40% in that series, non-factor on D


Simply being a part of a winning team once doesn't give you GOAT credentials


To be GOAT you have to be the best without question for many consecutive years, carry teams to championships multiple times, and have longevity

THAT's LeBron's GOAT criteria, and neither MJ nor Dirk lives up to it
.


Santa isn't real squirt, put away the Space Jam pajamas and start living in reality. You're getting progressively more embarrassing with these half-assed threads



How old are you? Jordan had the better peak, comfortably
And he was sweeping the mvps and winning titles as lead dog at 34-35 while Lebron is missing the playoffs. I wouldn't talk about longevity

[Mr Feeny]

- 6 rings is goat for modern era/3-pointer basketball - so lebron's 3 rings isn't goat-level

- 6 FMVP's and 5 MVP's (11 total) is the goat standard for modern era/3-pointer basketball - so lebron's 3 FMVP's and 4 MVP's (7 total) isn't goat-level

So again, Lebron isn't"goat-level" at rings (winning), or MVP/FMVP (accolades).. Again, "all-time" level is the right word for Lebron's rings and accolades... not goat level



Lebron played more seasons but had a much shorter period of elite 2-way play (only 5 seasons with both 1st team all-nba and all-defense, versus 9 for MJ), and a shorter period of MVP-caliber play from 09-13' (5 years), versus 88-98' for MJ (11 years).

And you've conflated his longevity with accolades - having the most 1st teams is tied to games played (longevity)... And ur wrong anyway - MJ has more 1st teams (9 all-nba and 9 all-defense, 18 total)

Regarding advanced stats - only MJ is top 2 all-time in PER, VORP, BPM, and WS/48 for regular season and playoffs... Regarding raw stats - MJ is the PPG leader by a wide margin.




I was responding to your assertion that tpols was vague - so I made it clear and it's funny because most of my assertions are directly backed by stats:

the stats show lebron doesn't shoot well from mid-range or FT, and doesn't dominate the post, while being turnover-prone.... he also shoots poorly at high volume due to the extra jumpshooting - his jumpshooting efficiency and overall efficiency is much lower in seasons where he took a lot of jumpers.. I can post all these jumpshooting stats with links to the source data.

The stats also show that teammates see their assists crater alongside lebron, so the TEAM has low assists and gets massively out-assisted in the championship - these are all statistical facts

But there's plenty more... The stats show that lebron lowers teammate assists while increasing their assisted rate - so he turns teammates into play-finishers/spot-up shooters, which doesn't develop teammates and requires team-hopping for ready made stars/teams

But there's more... NBA.com stats show that his time of possession is the highest of all-time (his 15' Finals was a record and 30% higher than 19' Harden's regular season).. his ball-dominant skillset doesn't fit with other ball-handlers - only shooters excel alongside him, which puts a ceiling on his teams and cause many players to avoid playing with him
.

You're talking to a kid Lebron fanboy. He just mentioned a cumulative stat to make the claim that his idol is the GOAT. That should be enough to tell you not to take him seriously.

[3ball]

.
RESULTS


Dirk - 14 votes
Bron - 9 votes


Conclusion - Dirk overcame a bigger talent deficit, and is therefore >>> based on Lebron's goat criteria (thus proving that Lebron's goat criteria is BS)