When did MJ become the BEST player in the NBA?

[StrongLurk]

For those of you with low reading comprehension, I'm not talking about best ALL-TIME. I'm talking about when did he become the best player in the NBA for his era.

Was he already best by the 88 season? I would say yes.

[Vino24]

86 season. 37ppg.

[FKAri]

In retrospect or when did public opinion at the time shift to him being the best in the league? Because there's a difference. There was some resistance to accepting him as the best in the league. A lot of pundits/analysts/and mainly old school fans didn't like him taking so many shots (especially as a guard). It took them a while to begrudgingly come around. Young guys loved him right away.

[Pointguard]

Magic and Bird had redefined the game. They both were game to whoever had the most rings was the better player and the media brought into it. It was an extension of the Wilt/Russell argument. Visually, skill wise, or production wise there was no argument for Russell. With Magic and Bird vs Jordan there wasn't this huge discrepancy in those areas. So the media wasn't so quick to give a ringless Jordan the crown. Despite Jordan looking better than anybody who played.

[Pointguard]

86 season. 37ppg.
So Harden is the best player in the game now?

[Da_Realist]

It was universal after he won his first title. Many thought he was the best player in the league before then but were reluctant to give him that title without him proving he could win. Makes sense because Magic was still competing with MJ for MVP awards while holding five rings. But even the ones reluctant to call him the best before he won still considered him a force unlike anything seen before in the league.

[3ball]

MJ wasn't the best until 1990 and wasn't perceived as the best until 1991

Then he was the best until 1998

He would've been the best earlier if he had a better cast earlier and therefore learned how to win earlier... His stats and production were infact the best from 1987

[Round Mound]

By 88, yes.

[Dr Hawk]

86: Bird
87: Magic
88: Jordan

[AussieSteve]

I remember reading an article once from 1990, about that years mvp race and how tight it was.

While it didn't commit to saying that Magic or Barkley or Jordan should have been the MVP, I recall it saying something like... "if the mvp simply went to the best player in the league, that would obviously be Jordan".

So by 1990, there was certainly some consensus that he was the best.

[GimmeThat]

it would be the year he became a conformist, in which, being the best player in the NBA isn't even his biggest accomplishment

[Phoenix]

I remember some discussion around 1990 that he was the GOAT. In introspect, especially how we view that title now in terms of winning championships to go with individual dominance, that was obviously premature but it goes to show how much MJ's on-court artistry was affecting perception.

So in saying that, if 'some' were arguing for him as GOAT by 1990, by extension it would be fair to think he was generally considered the best player in the league by then. I'd go as far as to say by 88(MVP, scoring title, DPOY) nobody was individually better in terms of all-court ability, but while people deify him now, there was a point when his 'gunslinging' was frowned upon by purists and there was hesitation to crown him better than Magic/Bird who played 'the right way' and won championships( albeit with exponentially better talent than what MJ was working with in the 80s).

[Manny98]

MJ wasn't the best until 1990 and wasn't perceived as the best until 1991

Then he was the best until 1998

He would've been the best earlier if he had a better cast earlier and therefore learned how to win earlier... His stats and production were infact the best from 1987
Wait MJ was only the best for 7 years whilst LeBron has been regarded as the best in the world for over a decade straight :eek:

[Da_Realist]

Wait MJ was only the best for 7 years whilst LeBron has been regarded as the best in the world for over a decade straight :eek:

...and yet wouldn't have been the best at all from 1980 through 1998

[ImKobe]

Wait MJ was only the best for 7 years whilst LeBron has been regarded as the best in the world for over a decade straight :eek:

Lebron himself put Kobe over him in 2009 so what are you talking about?

Was Lebron the best player in the league in 2010? 2011? 2014? 2015? 2017, 2018 or 2019? The answer is: NO.

MJ was the best player in the league from 87-98, no one else in history sustained such greatness for that long of a period. Lebron was the best player in 2012 and 2013, every other year is highly debatable. He surely wasn't the best when he was coming up short time after time again on the Cavs and he wasn't the best during the worst choke in NBA history in 2011.

[Manny98]

Lebron himself put Kobe over him in 2009 so what are you talking about?

Was Lebron the best player in the league in 2010? 2011? 2014? 2015? 2017, 2018 or 2019? The answer is: NO.

MJ was the best player in the league from 87-98, no one else in history sustained such greatness for that long of a period. Lebron was the best player in 2012 and 2013, every other year is highly debatable. He surely wasn't the best when he was coming up short time after time again on the Cavs and he wasn't the best during the worst choke in NBA history in 2011.
lol LeBron was CLEARY better than Kobe from 08 onwards.

08
09
10
11
12
13
14
16
17
18

That's 11 years as the consensus BITW

Whilst MJ was only consensus BITW for 7 years

[julizaver]

IMO it was 1988.
And prior to his first retirement he had been considered GOAT by his peers and media.

As usual I don't took winning as the sole mark for individual greatness. Winning in basketball is a team achievment first. By 1990 Bulls were a solid team with good players and playoff experience and they've got the right coach.
The same with Shaq who was dominant player in the 90s - but got his first ring in 2000 - guess why :lol

And Duncan - he is lucky to have his resume, he was never the most dominant or the best player in the league, but happen to play his whole career under one of the GOAT coaches and system ever. If DRob was not injured the season prior he would start playing in one of the worst teams and I doubt he would have his 5 rings ... and his winning resume is the strongest reason for him been in Top10 All time GOAT list for most people. For me he is not better than Hakeem or Shaq as center and not better than Malone and peak Barkley at PF. Sorry but Duncan is the most overrated player here, more than Kobe who got 3 rings as a side kick to Shaq and his selfishness and ego destroyed the Lakers dynasty.

[Overdrive]

That's 11th BITW

Sounds right.

[guy]

lol LeBron was CLEARY better than Kobe from 08 onwards.

08
09
10
11
12
13
14
16
17
18

That's 11 years as the consensus BITW

Whilst MJ was only consensus BITW for 7 years

He was not consensus from 08-10. There may have not been an overwhelming consensus, but if you polled people back then, most would

[Phoenix]

He was not consensus from 08-10. There may have not been an overwhelming consensus, but if you polled people back then, most would’ve said Kobe at the time. Whether you think popular opinion is correct or not, popular opinion definitely did not support Lebron as the best at the time.

Some were saying Wade in 2009 as well. Wade had a two-way season for the ages for a perimeter player, 30/7/6/2/1 on 57% TS and 30PER. He was fukking epic in 2009 and nobody was 'consensus' better than him that year.

2010, Lebron had a great regular season but the optics of 'elbowgate' against Boston and that image of him walking down the hall in defeat( with clearly one foot out the door) takes the steam out of that year.

In 2011 his regular season didn't stand out from Wade, or Dwight Howard and he folded in the finals. 2011 after the Dallas series would have been the absolute worst time to make any 'consensus' argument after that kind of flame-out and then you compound it with 'elbow-gate' in 2010 and there's no telling AT THE TIME which way he was going.

2012 and 2013 I'd say are definitive. Peaked physically and mentally on both ends, shot the 3 well, regained most of his Cleveland athleticism. Most of his late 00 rivals were starting to fade from age/injuries and guys like Durant/Harden weren't there yet. No argument for anyone else so the term 'consensus' applies fairly there.

In 2014 there were loud whispers that Durant had caught him up compounded by the MVP award. I'd go with Lebron but Durant was making noise and had a few people looking sideways like 'Bron, this dude is clipping at ya heels'.

In 2015 I don't recall there being particularly strong arguments for anyone else. KD was injured, Steph was a year off from that historic 2016 regular season, Harden/AD/Westbrook not there yet.

In 2016 the entirety of the regular season people thought Steph had taken over, until the finals, but I wouldn't call it 'consensus' simply because he took back the crown combined with Steph folding at the end. So much of the hoopla over the 2016 finals is expressly because people thought Steph had taken the crown, alongside the Warriors.

In 2017 and 2018 he had great offensive seasons at the expense of defense, and more than a few people thought KD was the best player so there's no 'consensus' for those years either.

Lebron's 'there's no argument' seasons are 2012 and 2013. That's when he peaked physically and mentally on both ends. There have always been others 'in the discussion' in several other years even if Lebron won out the debate in the end.

[guy]

Some were saying Wade in 2009 as well. Wade had a two-way season for the ages for a perimeter player, 30/7/6/2/1 on 57% TS and 30PER. He was fukking epic in 2009 and nobody was 'consensus' better than him that year.

2010, Lebron had a great regular season but the optics of 'elbowgate' against Boston and that image of him walking down the hall in defeat( with clearly one foot out the door) takes the steam out of that year.

In 2011 his regular season didn't stand out from Wade, or Dwight Howard and he folded in the finals. 2011 after the Dallas series would have been the absolute worst time to make any 'consensus' argument after that kind of flame-out and then you compound it with 'elbow-gate' in 2010 and there's no telling AT THE TIME which way he was going.

2012 and 2013 I'd say are definitive. Peaked physically and mentally on both ends, shot the 3 well, regained most of his Cleveland athleticism. Most of his late 00 rivals were starting to fade from age/injuries and guys like Durant/Harden weren't there yet. No argument for anyone else so the term 'consensus' applies fairly there.

In 2014 there were loud whispers that Durant had caught him up compounded by the MVP award. I'd go with Lebron but Durant was making noise and had a few people looking sideways like 'Bron, this dude in clipping at ya heels'.

In 2015 I don't recall there being particularly strong arguments for anyone else. KD was injured, Steph was a year off from that historic 2016 regular season, Harden/AD/Westbrook not there yet.

In 2016 the entirety of the regular season people thought Steph had taken over, until the finals, but I wouldn't call it 'consensus' simply because he took back the crown combined with Steph folding at the end. So much of the hoopla over the 2016 finals is expressly because people thought Steph had taken the crown, alongside the Warriors.

In 2017 and 2018 he had great offensive seasons at the expense of defense, and more than a few people thought KD was the best player so there's no 'consensus' for those years either.

Lebron's 'there's no argument' seasons are 2012 and 2013. That's when he peaked physically and mentally on both ends. There have always been others 'in the discussion' in several other years even if Lebron won out the debate in the end.

Agree with most of this. I would say by the end of 2012, 2013, 2015 and 2016 there was virtually no debate that he was the best. However, I would say 2013 was the only season where there is basically no debate from beginning to end. In 2012, there was a lot of debate between him and Durant till the finals. In 2015, his season started off kinda slow, while Steph and Harden were having an MVP race that Lebron was nowhere in the discussion for. In 2016, there was obviously a lot of support for Steph until the finals.

For Jordan, it was 91-93 and 96-98 where there was no debate that he was the best by the end of the season, but that was also pretty much the case for the entirety of those seasons. Sure he didn

[superduper]

10. Kobe
11. LeBron


:applause: :applause:

[StrongLurk]

Lot of good responses in here, but I still feel like MJ was best by 88. Bird was going downhill at that point, Magic was still good but I've always had MJ > Magic (and Bird > Magic).

Hakeem and Barkley were already great but they came in basically the same time as MJ.

The 80's was a great era for all-star level players (although the current era has "deeper" talent imo).

I think 88 MJ is similar to 09 Lebron in that they were both the best players in the league (imo), had just won their first MVPs and had been putting up monster numbers for awhile. They just didn't quite have the teams to truly be championship competitors.

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=guy]
For Jordan, it was 91-93 and 96-98 where there was no debate that he was the best by the end of the season, but that was also pretty much the case for the entirety of those seasons. Sure he didn

[Psileas]

Agree with most of this. I would say by the end of 2012, 2013, 2015 and 2016 there was virtually no debate that he was the best. However, I would say 2013 was the only season where there is basically no debate from beginning to end. In 2012, there was a lot of debate between him and Durant till the finals. In 2015, his season started off kinda slow, while Steph and Harden were having an MVP race that Lebron was nowhere in the discussion for. In 2016, there was obviously a lot of support for Steph until the finals.

For Jordan, it was 91-93 and 96-98 where there was no debate that he was the best by the end of the season, but that was also pretty much the case for the entirety of those seasons. Sure he didn’t always win MVP, but there was no significant number of people saying at any point during those seasons that someone else was better. Fact is Lebron never had the stranglehold on the league in terms of his place that Jordan did.

I can't agree that in any season someone doesn't win the MVP (despite what the meaning of MVP really is and the whole voting fatigue thing - I mean, fatigue or not, if someone is seen as hands down the best, it's hard to vote for someone you don't believe in), there's consensus all season long that he's the best player in the game, especially if we take into account how much more limited and primitive the internet was in Jordan's time and how much more influence the TV had on people. You don't think, e.g, that before the '91 Finals, there were people (esp.older guys) who still believed that Magic was the best player in the league, when he actually got some official MVP votes, despite Jordan for the first time winning more regular season games? You don't think that in a '93 message board, but under 2019 internet cirmumstances, there would be a good chunk of people (esp. youngsters) believing, before the Finals, that Barkley might actually have become the best player in the NBA (Barkley himself said he realized Jordan was better than him after the '93 Finals)?
I think, in retrospect, we view things way less complicated than they really were in their time. Not necessarily more incorrectly, but we easily leave aside details that seem to contrast the wider picture we have formed in our minds. Especially if we normalize all eras to match the same criteria, I think there were surprisingly few seasons when there was a clear-cut consensus of who the best player in the season was all year long. There were arguments for Durant in certain "LeBron" seasons. There were also arguments for Duncan in 2001 or 2002, there were arguments for Magic in 1991 or Malone in '98, there were arguments for old Wilt in '72 or Archibald in '73, not to mention Dr.J, who was still in the ABA, etc. Many of them did not last all season long, but they still were there at some point.

[guy]

I would say MJ fairly should have been the outright best at least by 90, even if it didn't result in a title. You could make 88 and 89 cases where he may have been at his all-court statistical best, the gaudy numbers on both ends, but you had to go with Magic by seasons end if the 'who's taking his team further standard' applies( not discounting the Lakers superiority in talent and a weaker conference, but I digress). MJ may have been individually more prolific, but I see the argument for Magic. By 90 it should have been clear, if it wasn't in earlier years, that the only thing preventing MJ from winning a title was just needing a CONSISTENT 2nd option so he wasn't trying to do solo acts against Detroit. There's a strong possibility that if Pippen didn't have the migraine and played up to par that Chicago edges Detroit in 1990, and I'd have taken them over Portland in 6.

I

[Phoenix]

I’m just talking about popular opinion. In my view, I probably would’ve had Jordan as the best in the league from 88-93 and 96-98 and Lebron as the best in the league from 2012-2018. And I consider the best in the league as in who I would want leading my team and to build around going into that season with the objective of winning a title.

Yeah I get it. It was more 'there isn't an argument' from 91 because the individual talent, numbers, and hardware were all there. You could no longer say 'MJ can drop 40 in his sleep, but he can't lead a team to a championship'. When you're dominating on both ends, winning the scoring title, the MVP and the championship, there really isn't any wiggle room to have anyone else in the conversation.

[guy]

I can't agree that in any season someone doesn't win the MVP (despite what the meaning of MVP really is and the whole voting fatigue thing - I mean, fatigue or not, if someone is seen as hands down the best, it's hard to vote for someone you don't believe in), there's consensus all season long that he's the best player in the game, especially if we take into account how much more limited and primitive the internet was in Jordan's time and how much more influence the TV had on people. You don't think, e.g, that before the '91 Finals, there were people (esp.older guys) who still believed that Magic was the best player in the league, when he actually got some official MVP votes, despite Jordan for the first time winning more regular season games? You don't think that in a '93 message board, but under 2019 internet cirmumstances, there would be a good chunk of people (esp. youngsters) believing, before the Finals, that Barkley might actually have become the best player in the NBA (Barkley himself said he realized Jordan was better than him after the '93 Finals)?
I think, in retrospect, we view things way less complicated than they really were in their time. Not necessarily more incorrectly, but we easily leave aside details that seem to contrast the wider picture we have formed in our minds. Especially if we normalize all eras to match the same criteria, I think there were surprisingly few seasons when there was a clear-cut consensus of who the best player in the season was all year long. There were arguments for Durant in certain "LeBron" seasons. There were also arguments for Duncan in 2001 or 2002, there were arguments for Magic in 1991 or Malone in '98, there were arguments for old Wilt in '72 or Archibald in '73, not to mention Dr.J, who was still in the ABA, etc. Many of them did not last all season long, but they still were there at some point.

Maybe in 91. My thinking isn’t based on specific measurements out there, just my perception.

Under 2019 internet circumstances, no one really believes Westbrook or Harden have arguments over Lebron or Durant in 2017 and/or 2018. At least I didn’t catch that. So yes, in some of those years Jordan didn’t MVP, the same applies. But I could be wrong.

[Manny98]

LeBron literally had the greatest season ever in 09 the only people that thought LeBron wasn't CLEARY the BITW the world in 09 & 10 are Kobe stans

2011 LeBron is still the best despite his finals choke

2012 & 2013 LeBron no question

2014 KD has a strong argument that year

2015 Curry was the best as LeBron had a down year

2016 LeBron easily Curry had a case but he underperformed in the finals

2017 LeBron or KD

2018 LeBron or KD

2019 KD

[AirTupac]

How can you be the best when JJ Barea and Jason Terry stop you? How does that even make sense...

[superduper]

LeBron literally had the greatest season ever in 09 the only people that thought LeBron wasn't CLEARY the BITW the world in 09 & 10 are Kobe stans

2011 LeBron is still the best despite his finals choke

2012 & 2013 LeBron no question

2014 KD has a strong argument that year

2015 Curry was the best as LeBron had a down year

2016 LeBron easily Curry had a case but he underperformed in the finals

2017 LeBron or KD

2018 LeBron or KD

2019 KD

"Bran underperformed in 2011 finals he's still the best"
"Curry underperformed in 2016 finals Bran's the best"

:coleman:

[3ball]

LeBron literally had the greatest season ever in 09 the only people that thought LeBron wasn't CLEARY the BITW the world in 09 & 10 are Kobe stans

2011 LeBron is still the best despite his finals choke

2012 & 2013 LeBron no question

2014 KD has a strong argument that year

2015 Curry was the best as LeBron had a down year

2016 LeBron easily Curry had a case but he underperformed in the finals

2017 LeBron or KD

2018 LeBron or KD

2019 KD
2011 and 2016 above are contradictory - you punish Curry in 16' for "underperforming", but give lebron a pass for his goat choke in 2011

[superduper]

2011 and 2016 above are contradictory - you punish Curry in 16' for "underperforming", but give lebron a pass for his goat choke in 2011

Dw bro I got this it's only Manny I'm bout to eviscerate this dude's big intestine.

We'll save the 3ball Artillery for the trolls that actually matter.

[Ainosterhaspie]

How did LeBron enter this? He and Jordan played at different times and this is about when Jordan surpassed Bird and Magic.

There seems to be more or less a consensus here that it was 88 which seems about right to me. 86 is ridiculous. Bird was easily still the better player then.

[3ball]

I believe you aren't a winner until you're a winner and there's a certain know-how, confidence, swagger, and understanding of the end game that winners have and guys like 88 mj and 09 lebron didn't have

There's value in having won before - lebron demonstrates this better than anyone - his frequency of chokes declined significantly after he won in 2012 - he was actually a choking machine before that

And I define choking as underperformance or losing as the favorite

[3ball]

Dw bro I got this it's only Manny I'm bout to eviscerate this dude's big intestine.

We'll save the 3ball Artillery for the trolls that actually matter.
Got it

[Ainosterhaspie]

And I define choking as underperformance or losing as the favorite

People care about how you define choking about as much as they care about how JR Smith defines having the lead with seconds left in the game.

[TheMan]

You don't actually have to win a ring before being the best player in the league, Shaq was already the best player by 1999 after MJ was gone. I also agree that by '87 or more specifically by '88, MJ was the best player in the NBA. Since someone brought up LeBron, he was the best player in the NBA by 2010...which makes his 2011 Finals meltdown such a travesty.

[RRR3]

Anyone who thinks that LeBron wasn’t the best player in 2009 will have to really twist themselves into a pretzel to explain how he led ****ing trash to 66 wins.

[3ball]

You don't actually have to win a ring before being the best player in the league, Shaq was already the best player by 1999 after MJ was gone. I also agree that by '87 or more specifically by '88, MJ was the best player in the NBA. Since someone brought up LeBron, he was the best player in the NBA by 2010...which makes his 2011 Finals meltdown such a travesty.
True, but it depends on the comp

If there's vets producing at the top level AND winning rings, then 99' Shaq isn't the best player - with MJ gone though, there was no such player.. But I'd say that years like 99' are somewhat rare, since most of the time, there's a top-producing player that is winning

And 2000 Shaq was still better than 1999 Shaq - not because he learned new moves or became a better FT shooter - but because he's learned how to execute championship plays/strategy/basketball.. There's always a teamwork/know-how/strategy aspect . It's never just about the talent/help

And LeBron's choke was a function of his incomplete game - it wasn't just a mental breakdown - he didn't know how to play with Wade for one.....

[SamuraiSWISH]

Best Player in the League

80 - 87: Bird
88 - 93: Jordan
94 and 95: Hakeem
96 - 98: Jordan
99 - 02: Shaq
03 - 05: Duncan
06 - 08: Kobe
09 - 16: LeBron
17 - 19: Durant

[3ball]

So 2010 Kobe wouldn't destroy the 2010 fake elbow, pre-11 Lebron? It's impossible

How is 09' Lebron better than Kobe when he was still capable of the 10' and 11' chokes and the mental and skill deficits that caused it?

People are giving lebron a pass for his disappointing 09-11' run of choke city every year, and then knocking kobe for..... honestly, I don't know what - when a dominant wing wins the ring and fmvp, he's the best that year barring injury to a competitor (i.e. Durant in 19', although I still take 19' kawhi over Durant)

[StrongLurk]

Best Player in the League

80 - 87: Bird
88 - 93: Jordan
94 and 95: Hakeem
96 - 98: Jordan
99 - 02: Shaq
03 - 05: Duncan
06 - 08: Kobe
09 - 16: LeBron
17 - 19: Durant

Wow I basically have the exact same list. Hardest year to say are below (not commenting on the 80s).

04 - I think KG was better than Duncan
05 - Duncan probably by the slimmest margin (was a down year for Shaq, Kobe, and KG missed the playoffs I believe).
11 - Lebron honestly had a somewhat down regular season, but was probably the best player until the finals collapse. I don't have a clear cut best player for 2011.
17/18 - I still have Lebron as the best player but KD is incredible and if someone wanted to say KD and Lebron were co-best players then I'm fine with that.

[Phoenix]

Wow I basically have the exact same list. Hardest year to say are below (not commenting on the 80s).

04 - I think KG was better than Duncan
05 - Duncan probably by the slimmest margin (was a down year for Shaq, Kobe, and KG missed the playoffs I believe).
11 - Lebron honestly had a somewhat down regular season, but was probably the best player until the finals collapse. I don't have a clear cut best player for 2011.
17/18 - I still have Lebron as the best player but KD is incredible and if someone wanted to say KD and Lebron were co-best players then I'm fine with that.


The reason why 2011 is somewhat obscured is because there wasn't a singularly dominant player to point to. Lebron optically didn't distinguish himself from Wade, Howard and to a lesser degree Rose. He didn't 'statistically' separate himself from Howard, and barely had a statistical edge on Wade. Didn't win the regular season MVP, or the championship/FMVP which could be used as credible arguments by that criteria. And then the finals, which speaks for itself.

[3ball]

Wow I basically have the exact same list. Hardest year to say are below (not commenting on the 80s).

04 - I think KG was better than Duncan
05 - Duncan probably by the slimmest margin (was a down year for Shaq, Kobe, and KG missed the playoffs I believe).
11 - Lebron honestly had a somewhat down regular season, but was probably the best player until the finals collapse. I don't have a clear cut best player for 2011.
17/18 - I still have Lebron as the best player but KD is incredible and if someone wanted to say KD and Lebron were co-best players then I'm fine with that.
That's smart because if Lebron was the best player despite his Finals choke, then MJ was still the best player in 1995 despite losing and posting his wizards' impact stats that year

If a guy collapses in the playoffs, then he isn't the best player that year

The games matter - that's what basketball is .. if MJ had a massive choke in 1996 or something people wouldn't say he was the best, just like 95', which wasn't even a choke (MJ wasn't expected to win)

[Stringer Bell]

I guess 1987-88, or maybe the next year.

The 1989-90 season was a strong MVP race and controversial due to Barkley having the most 1st place votes and Magic winning over him, but I thought Jordan was more worthy than both of them.

[Doranku]

'88 I'd say. When a guy wins MVP, DPOY, and leads the league in scoring all in the same year, I'd say it's pretty hard to argue against him being the best in the world.

[3ball]

I guess if harden didn't get MVP this year, MJ correctly didn't get it in 87'

But we see that Magic (who got it in 87') > Giannis (who got it this yr)

And Magic was WAY better than Giannis, which shows how much tougher the overall comp and players were in the 80's

The weaker, diluted game of today is due to the homogenization of players and skills - there's less individually-unique skills today, which makes it harder to develop or yield that 1-of--kind player..

Whereas previous eras routinely produced the Magic's/Larry's/Michael's/Shaq's/Duncan's and Kobe's - individually-unique skillsets/styles - because players didn't have today's plain, vanilla 3-pointer/layup shot allocation -

The lack of spacing/threes and the congestion forced players to make shots ON defenders - everyone has their own way of doing this, so players developed more individually-unique skill back then.. eventually today's league will have to find a way to reduce the spacing a tad (reduce threes), so the shot all
.ocation isn't so basic, this making guys develop more individually-unique skill
.

[tontoz]

In retrospect or when did public opinion at the time shift to him being the best in the league? Because there's a difference. There was some resistance to accepting him as the best in the league. A lot of pundits/analysts/and mainly old school fans didn't like him taking so many shots (especially as a guard). It took them a while to begrudgingly come around. Young guys loved him right away.


In terms of public perception i think it was the Finals win against the Blazers where Jordan was finally seen as the consensus best player.

There was a lot of skepticism about his game in his first few years, being too selfish, not making other players better, doubts that were silenced after winning back to back titles and dominating Drexler.

In reality i think he was already the best player before he won a title but Magic and Bird were beloved icons, certainly more popular than anyone in the game today. There was definitely some reluctance to give Jordan the crown.

[3ball]

In terms of public perception i think it was the Finals win against the Blazers where Jordan was finally seen as the consensus best player.

There was a lot of skepticism about his game in his first few years, being too selfish, not making other players better, doubts that were silenced after winning back to back titles and dominating Drexler.

In reality i think he was already the best player before he won a title but Magic and Bird were beloved icons, certainly more popular than anyone in the game today. There was definitely some reluctance to give Jordan the crown.
Scoring champ couldn't be a champion they said

6 instances later... lol

Actually Kareem and Shaq did it once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00'.. shows how dominant MJ was as a scorer (his timing, etc) that he could win that way - a way that everyone thought was suboptimal (i.e. hot dog scoring champs never win')

[Stringer Bell]

In terms of public perception i think it was the Finals win against the Blazers where Jordan was finally seen as the consensus best player.

There was a lot of skepticism about his game in his first few years, being too selfish, not making other players better, doubts that were silenced after winning back to back titles and dominating Drexler.

In reality i think he was already the best player before he won a title but Magic and Bird were beloved icons, certainly more popular than anyone in the game today. There was definitely some reluctance to give Jordan the crown.

He was definitely considered the best in the game during the 91-92 season leading up to the finals against Portland.

Sports Illustrated had that hologram cover with him as 91’ Sportsman of the Year. I remember them saying that he was probably the best player in the league before winning a title, but after winning the title against LA and Magic retiring, that it wasn’t even a debate at all. The closest competitor had retired.

Jordan’s Q rating/PR dropped lower than it had ever been during that second season, he lost some of that squeaky clean image, but his status for strictly on the court kept increasing.

[Round Mound]

I guess 1987-88, or maybe the next year.

The 1989-90 season was a strong MVP race and controversial due to Barkley having the most 1st place votes and Magic winning over him, but I thought Jordan was more worthy than both of them.

Nah MJ had Pippen and Grant while Magic had Wothy and Scott. Barkley had nobodies. Barkley was stolen from that MVP.

[Smoke117]

Nah MJ had Pippen and Grant while Magic had Wothy and Scott. Barkley had nobodies. Barkley was stolen from that MVP.

While I agree Barkley should have been MVP, Hersey Hawkins was better than Byron Scott that season.

[Pointguard]

Bird wasn't good in the post season until his fifth year. So if Lebron is hurt by by this measure, Bird can not be the best. In the playoffs Bird never got to 22 ppg from 1980 to 1984 when he shot terribly from the field, about 45 percent the entire playoffs that entire time. Bird was outplayed at his own position in the first four years all but one year. This is with Bird rarely guarding the scoring forward. This is with Magic being the better playoff performer without question - in head to head in the playoffs Magic was the better player.

[Pointguard]

If you guys are going by visuals only, how in the world is everybody skipping over Shaq. He "looked" more dominant than Jordan: by Shaq's second year. Jordan was better but Shaq looked better than anybody ever.

[andgar923]

In retrospect or when did public opinion at the time shift to him being the best in the league? Because there's a difference. There was some resistance to accepting him as the best in the league. A lot of pundits/analysts/and mainly old school fans didn't like him taking so many shots (especially as a guard). It took them a while to begrudgingly come around. Young guys loved him right away.

This.

Old school fans constantly kept changing the argument and MJ kept proving them wrong every time. He was criticized even when he won the 1st ring and had doubters after the 2nd.

People weren't concerned with stats back then like they are today. They were concerned with wins and chips. They were concerned with accomplishments and the 'eye test' more than anything. Statistical/analytical measurements weren't used as the barometer of one's talent to the same degree that they are today. It was used but wasn't what defined a player like today.

I don't know if there's a consensus of when he was the best player, but there was def talk that it was between him Bird and Magic until MJ won the 1st chip.

[Ainosterhaspie]

The question isn't when did the people of the time consider him the best, it's when was he the best. Generally in the moment people are slow to accept that the up and comer has truly surpassed the accepted current best player(s).

By 88 he certainly had all the skill and athleticism to be the best player, but didn't quite have the willingness to trust his teammates. That still held him back a bit. Once Phil got him to buy in, the biggest limiting factor was gone and he was clearly the best. I'd say that even with those limits he probably had surpassed Magic and Bird even prior to the title based on just his sheer overwhelming talent edge.

I'd say 88, 89 or 90. He was the best before the title.

[Phoenix]

The question isn't when did the people of the time consider him the best, it's when was he the best. Generally in the moment people are slow to accept that the up and comer has truly surpassed the accepted current best player(s).

By 88 he certainly had all the skill and athleticism to be the best player, but didn't quite have the willingness to trust his teammates. That still held him back a bit. Once Phil got him to buy in, the biggest limiting factor was gone and he was clearly the best. I'd say that even with those limits he probably had surpassed Magic and Bird even prior to the title based on just his sheer overwhelming talent edge.

I'd say 88, 89 or 90. He was the best before the title.

Lemme ask this just to add to the discussion. Would Jordan 88 win the championship with the 91 Bulls? ( in other words, sub 91 Jordan for 88 version. What happens?)

[Ainosterhaspie]

Lemme ask this just to add to the discussion. Would Jordan 88 win the championship with the 91 Bulls? ( in other words, sub 91 Jordan for 88 version. What happens?)
I think the Pistons manage to get him to try to do too much and he ultimately comes up short. I could see Chicago winning, but would probably say Detroit in seven. That would have been a brutal year though. Still would have had to get through Celtics and Lakers. It's hard to imagine him wearing out in a post season at that age, but that run might have done it to him.

Good chance he wins in 89 though.

[Phoenix]

I think the Pistons manage to get him to try to do too much and he ultimately comes up short. I could see Chicago winning, but would probably say Detroit in seven. That would have been a brutal year though. Still would have had to get through Celtics and Lakers. It's hard to imagine him wearing out in a post season at that age, but that run might have done it to him.

Good chance he wins in 89 though.

I tend to think that MJ skill/talent wise was good enough to win from 88, but something 'mentally' was gained between then and 90 that allowed 91 and beyond to come through.

[LAmbruh]

*clicks MJ thread*

*sees more walls of text*

*:roll: :roll:*

*another1.gif*

*dips*

[superduper]

*clicks MJ thread*

*sees more walls of text*

*:roll: :roll:*

*another1.gif*

*dips*

Hmm basketball is a lot more than "30 pwhynt trip1e duble!!", imagine that :eek:

[Phoenix]

*clicks MJ thread*

*sees more walls of text*

*:roll: :roll:*

*#another1*

*dips*

Lambruh in another MJ thread 'casually observing'

https://media3.giphy.com/media/xUPGcAWtukaRBip8Ri/giphy.gif

:yaohappy:

I'm making conversation. What you doing, asides from being useless? :D

[Phoenix]

Hmm basketball is a lot more than "30 pwhynt trip1e duble!!", imagine that :eek:

Bear in mind, we have simple minds in here that consider this:

"Lemme ask this just to add to the discussion. Would Jordan 88 win the championship with the 91 Bulls? ( in other words, sub 91 Jordan for 88 version. What happens?)"

*walls of text*

:oldlol:

[Ainosterhaspie]

I tend to think that MJ skill/talent wise was good enough to win from 88, but something 'mentally' was gained between then and 90 that allowed 91 and beyond to come through.
Agreed. 88 Jordan could win titles in the right years, but wouldn't have the sustained success of post 90 Jordan.

[Da_Realist]

Lemme ask this just to add to the discussion. Would Jordan 88 win the championship with the 91 Bulls? ( in other words, sub 91 Jordan for 88 version. What happens?)

No, 88 MJ had a totally different style of play than 91 MJ. 88 MJ was a force of nature...a super souped up, much better version of Russell Westbrook. He laid it all out on the court and gave the NBA something it had never seen before. It was one of the greatest single seasons in NBA history.

But since basketball is a team sport, all that individual talent didn't translate to team success. By 91, MJ had learned to dial back his prodigious talent and allow the team to flourish. MJ dialed back a little was still way better than everyone else in the league but now the growth in his team outpaced what he gave up individually.

91 MJ was toying with the league. He could play at whatever pace he wanted. He was able to survey the game and provide whatever was needed at the right time.

88 and 91 brought us the best of two different versions of MJ. 88 MJ was the greatest shooting guard in NBA history. 91 MJ was an even better player.

[Phoenix]

No, 88 MJ had a totally different style of play than 91 MJ. 88 MJ was a force of nature...a super souped up, much better version of Russell Westbrook. He laid it all out on the court and gave the NBA something it had never seen before. It was one of the greatest single seasons in NBA history.

But since basketball is a team sport, all that individual talent didn't translate to team success. By 91, MJ had learned to dial back his prodigious talent and allow the team to flourish. MJ dialed back a little was still way better than everyone else in the league but now the growth in his team outpaced what he gave up individually.

91 MJ was toying with the league. He could play at whatever pace he wanted. He was able to survey the game and provide whatever was needed at the right time.

88 and 91 brought us the best of two different versions of MJ. 88 MJ was the greatest shooting guard in NBA history. 91 MJ was an even better player.

Great post, generally agree with that. I was saying earlier that MJ gained some valuable mental skills between 88-90 losing to the Pistons as he did, learning how to best scale and leverage his talents within a team framework. Better game management possession to possession. How to better pace himself within the flow of the game. Just a more complete player physically and mentally by 91.

[Da_Realist]

Great post, generally agree with that. I was saying earlier that MJ gained some valuable mental skills between 88-90 losing to the Pistons as he did, learning how to best scale and leverage his talents within a team framework. Better game management possession to possession. How to better pace himself within the flow of the game. Just a more complete player physically and mentally by 91.

Better player but less stats. That's a hard concept for some people to understand.

[Pointguard]

This.

Old school fans constantly kept changing the argument and MJ kept proving them wrong every time. He was criticized even when he won the 1st ring and had doubters after the 2nd.

People weren't concerned with stats back then like they are today. They were concerned with wins and chips. They were concerned with accomplishments and the 'eye test' more than anything. Statistical/analytical measurements weren't used as the barometer of one's talent to the same degree that they are today. It was used but wasn't what defined a player like today.

I don't know if there's a consensus of when he was the best player, but there was def talk that it was between him Bird and Magic until MJ won the 1st chip.

This.

People don't realize that back then the criteria was chips moreso than it is now. That was inheritance of Russell and Wilt who were paid the same amount of money. The extent in which Wilt was better than Russell is like Hakeem to Dwight Howard. It wasn't questionable but look at the list coming from sports outlets til 1980. Russell was considered the best and they set that stage for Bird and Magic. Both of which said yes, that's a great standard.

No way was a winless ring guy who didn't have Wilt's records was going to leap Bird and Magic and the king of accolades, Kareem. Its insane to believe Jordan was considered the best in '88 if you knew the history. It was never like you guys are saying. Len Bias was considered a bigger and stronger MJ in 86 and he had the same ring count as Jordan in 88. Magic and Bird were still in their primes at this time and just saved the league.

Alot of people hated Jordan's supreme athleticism as well - see how people hated Derrick Rose recently. I could see if people gave up on Bird and immediately wanted the next thing rather than give it to Magic but '88 is insane.

[Da_Realist]

This.

People don't realize that back then the criteria was chips moreso than it is now. That was inheritance of Russell and Wilt who were paid the same amount of money. The extent in which Wilt was better than Russell is like Hakeem to Dwight Howard. It wasn't questionable but look at the list coming from sports outlets til 1980. Russell was considered the best and they set that stage for Bird and Magic. Both of which said yes, that's a great standard.

No way was a winless ring guy who didn't have Wilt's records was going to leap Bird and Magic and the king of accolades, Kareem. Its insane to believe Jordan was considered the best in '88 if you knew the history. It was never like you guys are saying. Len Bias was considered a bigger and stronger MJ in 86 and he had the same ring count as Jordan in 88. Magic and Bird were still in their primes at this time and just saved the league.

Alot of people hated Jordan's supreme athleticism as well - see how people hated Derrick Rose recently. I could see if people gave up on Bird and immediately wanted the next thing rather than give it to Magic but '88 is insane.

The late 80's was incredible. Bird (until he missed the 89 season) and Magic were in their primes. MJ was a force of nature ascending like a bullet. Hakeem, Ewing, Barkley coming of age. Celtics trying to hold off the Pistons while the Pistons were trying to push back the Bulls for the chance to play the 80's dynasty Lakers. Every single night either Magic was playing, Bird was playing or MJ was playing someone somewhere. All at or near the top of their games. The Pistons bullying the league like the Four Horsemen. 88 Pistons Lakers NBA Finals (top 5). 89 Bulls Cavs First Round (maybe the best first round ever?)

Great time to watch the game. I wish NBA League Pass had existed back then.

[Phoenix]

The late 80's was incredible. Bird (until he missed the 89 season) and Magic were in their primes. MJ was a force of nature ascending like a bullet. Hakeem, Ewing, Barkley coming of age. Celtics trying to hold off the Pistons while the Pistons were trying to push back the Bulls for the chance to play the 80's dynasty Lakers. Every single night either Magic was playing, Bird was playing or MJ was playing someone somewhere. All at or near the top of their games. The Pistons bullying the league like the Four Horsemen. 88 Pistons Lakers NBA Finals (top 5). 89 Bulls Cavs First Round (maybe the best first round ever?)

Great time to watch the game. I wish NBA League Pass had existed back then.

I remember a quote( think it was Bird) saying that he would tune in to all of Magic's games so that he could come out and top it the next game. Or maybe that was Magic saying that about Bird- can't recall 100%- but just goes to show you how personal those guys took each others presence in the league and constantly pushing each other with maestro performances night after night.

[Manny98]

*clicks MJ thread*

*sees more walls of text*

*:roll: :roll:*

*another1.gif*

*dips*
:roll: :roll:

[superduper]

Imagine wanting to be taken seriously as a Bran stan.

Embarrassing children :oldlol:

[LAmbruh]

:roll: :roll:
:roll: :roll: