Gobert is the best center in the NBA now

[90sgoat]

It's up to Jokic and Embiid to prove it.

[Wally450]

Dude hasn't even made an All Star team yet.

[Xiao Yao You]

Dude hasn't even made an All Star team yet.

He's deserved it twice and been all NBA twice to go with his two straight DPOTY and all defensive teams

[Dr Hawk]

Dude hasn't even made an All Star team yet.

Which proves how irrelevant that is.

[stalkerforlife]

American basketball has destroyed the center position.

Gobert should be an all-star every year.

[NugzFan]

He's deserved it twice and been all NBA twice to go with his two straight DPOTY and all defensive teams

Deserved all star spots is resume worthy now?

[brooks_thompson]

I'm sorry. Gobert is deserving as a yearly all-star lock and is easily a top 15 player in the league, but I saw what Jokic did in the playoffs.

[Xiao Yao You]

Deserved all star spots is resume worthy now?

Just saying he's an star rather the fans or coaches realize there is more to the game than points or not.

How many times has Cousins been an all-star? Who would want him on their team over Gobert? :lol

[Manny98]

1. Gobert
2. Jokic

3. EmChoke :lol

[NugzFan]

Just saying he's an star rather the fans or coaches realize there is more to the game than points or not.

How many times has Cousins been an all-star? Who would want him on their team over Gobert? :lol

What kind of weird logic is that?

And if he doesn

[Xiao Yao You]

[QUOTE=NugzFan]What kind of weird logic is that?

And if he doesn

[jayfan]

It's up to Jokic and Embiid to prove it.

Didn't see the game. How good was he?


The Rockets have made him look average two postseasons in a row. That much I do know.

[NugzFan]

OK he is not an all star just all -NBA and DPOTY and All defense and the guy carrying a top 5 team in the west the past 4 plus years :rolleyes:

You mean like listing his actual achievements instead of making up arbitrary ones?

Yeah that works.

[NuggetsFan]

I really like Gobert. Has a huge impact. Just difficult to be the best player at your position when you can't be the focal point as a scorer. He averaged like 11/11 in the playoffs while blocking 2.6 shots per game. He actually played slightly less minutes in the playoffs.

I'm not even trying to be biased. I think Embiid talent wise is right there with Jokic. I won't argue against it. Jokic just averaged 25/13/8/1/1 on 59% TS with only 2.6 TO's per game and was 1 game away from the WCF. He helped Denver finished 2nd in the Western Conference with no other All-Stars. Murray has that potential .. but he isn't there yet. Embiid had Harris, Butler, Simmons etc. Gobert has Mitchell. What Jokic did this year was really underrated.

[NuggetsFan]

I just don't see the argument for Gobert above Jokic. Even defensively Jokic improved alot this year. He was really good in the playoffs, specifically vs S.A. Gobert struggled defensively being forced to switch vs Houston. In game 4 Utah's only win Gobert played 24 minutes and scored 4 points.

Jokic has the ability to carry an entire offense. Gobert can't do that. While Gobert can anchor a defense, Jokic is no longer a terrible defender. The gap offensively has a far bigger impact than the gap defensively.

[Xiao Yao You]

You mean like listing his actual achievements instead of making up arbitrary ones?

Yeah that works.

I don't consider making an all-star team over someone more deserving an achievement. Gobert should have made it last year and two years before that

[Xiao Yao You]

I really like Gobert. Has a huge impact. Just difficult to be the best player at your position when you can't be the focal point as a scorer. He averaged like 11/11 in the playoffs while blocking 2.6 shots per game. He actually played slightly less minutes in the playoffs.

I'm not even trying to be biased. I think Embiid talent wise is right there with Jokic. I won't argue against it. Jokic just averaged 25/13/8/1/1 on 59% TS with only 2.6 TO's per game and was 1 game away from the WCF. He helped Denver finished 2nd in the Western Conference with no other All-Stars. Murray has that potential .. but he isn't there yet. Embiid had Harris, Butler, Simmons etc. Gobert has Mitchell. What Jokic did this year was really underrated.

The Jazz offense is built around him. Others score because of him. He's the most efficient scorer in the league. Best defensive player. Why is it ok to just play offense? :confusedshrug:

[Xiao Yao You]

I just don't see the argument for Gobert above Jokic. Even defensively Jokic improved alot this year. He was really good in the playoffs, specifically vs S.A. Gobert struggled defensively being forced to switch vs Houston. In game 4 Utah's only win Gobert played 24 minutes and scored 4 points.

Jokic has the ability to carry an entire offense. Gobert can't do that. While Gobert can anchor a defense, Jokic is no longer a terrible defender. The gap offensively has a far bigger impact than the gap defensively.

Gobert was fine against Houston. They lost because of crapy offense not their defense. Now they have one of the top offenses in the league to go with one of the best defenses.

[NuggetsFan]

The Jazz offense is built around him. Others score because of him. He's the most efficient scorer in the league. Best defensive player. Why is it ok to just play offense? :confusedshrug:

This just isn't true tho. You eventually need to create your own offense and not just finish around the basket. Volume matters. You need to factor that in. What's more valuable someone scoring 15 PPG on 65% TS or someone scoring 36 PPG on 57% TS :confusedshrug:

Utah won 1 game in the playoffs. Gobert played 24 minutes and scored 4 points. He averaged 31.8 MPG in the regular season vs 30.4 MPG in the playoffs. Your best players tend to get up in minutes. Like Jokic went from 31 to 39 for example.

It's not ok to just play offense. Jokic plays defense too. Gobert can't carry an offense like Jokic or other superstars can. He can set great screens, finish around the basket, and is an elite finisher which is very valuable and why he's highly ranked along with his elite defense.

[Xiao Yao You]

This just isn't true tho. You eventually need to create your own offense and not just finish around the basket. Volume matters. You need to factor that in. What's more valuable someone scoring 15 PPG on 65% TS or someone scoring 36 PPG on 57% TS :confusedshrug:

Utah won 1 game in the playoffs. Gobert played 24 minutes and scored 4 points. He averaged 31.8 MPG in the regular season vs 30.4 MPG in the playoffs. Your best players tend to get up in minutes. Like Jokic went from 31 to 39 for example.

It's not ok to just play offense. Jokic plays defense too. Gobert can't carry an offense like Jokic or other superstars can. He can set great screens, finish around the basket, and is an elite finisher which is very valuable and why he's highly ranked along with his elite defense.

You have to factor in the points others score because of him which was a dozen to 15 points a game. Forget exactly. The Jazz have never built a team around Rudy. We got a brief glimpse of what that would look like at the end of Hayward's last season with a wounded Hill, Joe Johnson's last hurrah and the corpse of Boris Diaw. They finally have a team built around him now. They have 3 scorers around him. Stop them or give up a dunk to Gobert or a 3 to one of 3 or 4 guys that can actually hit an open shot. No more Bricky or Favors weighing down the offense. Picky your poison and good luck stopping them now! :cheers:

[fourkicks44]

This just isn't true tho. You eventually need to create your own offense and not just finish around the basket. Volume matters. You need to factor that in. What's more valuable someone scoring 15 PPG on 65% TS or someone scoring 36 PPG on 57% TS :confusedshrug:

Utah won 1 game in the playoffs. Gobert played 24 minutes and scored 4 points. He averaged 31.8 MPG in the regular season vs 30.4 MPG in the playoffs. Your best players tend to get up in minutes. Like Jokic went from 31 to 39 for example.

It's not ok to just play offense. Jokic plays defense too. Gobert can't carry an offense like Jokic or other superstars can. He can set great screens, finish around the basket, and is an elite finisher which is very valuable and why he's highly ranked along with his elite defense.

Hmm... I agree it is harder to be the main man with limited offense.

But Bill Russell did it. Considered by many to be one of the GOATS.

The fact is Jokic, Gobert and Embiid are by far the best three centers in the world ATM.

[Xiao Yao You]

Hmm... I agree it is harder to be the main man with limited offense.

But Bill Russell did it. Considered by many to be one of the GOATS.

The fact is Jokic, Gobert and Embiid are by far the best three centers in the world ATM.

you forgot Cousins and his multiple all-star appearances! :roll:

[NuggetsFan]

25/13/8/1/1 2.6 TO's .596 TS% 1 game away from the WCF.
11/10/1/1/3 1.8 TO's .665 TS% lost in 5 in the playoffs.

20/11/7/1.4/.7 3.1 TO's .589 TS%
16/13/2/.8/2.3 1.6 TO's .682 TS%

Both have elite advanced stats across the board. Nuggets won 54 games with Jokic leading the team in PPG, APG, RPG, SPG. Utah won 50 games with Gobert leading his team in RPG/BPG. Mitchell scored almost 8 more points a game. Utah was 2nd in defensive rating and 15th in offensive rating. Denver ranked 6th in offense rating and 10th in defense.

I just don't see the argument for Gobert above Jokic. Jokic can hit 3's, FT's, handle the ball, make any pass on the floor like a PG, great on the glass, can work down low. He was tied for the best DRtg on the Nuggets this season. 2nd best DBPM on the team with 3.8. Led them in DWS's at 4.3. So it's not even like Jokic is bad defensively.

[Xiao Yao You]

25/13/8/1/1 2.6 TO's .596 TS% 1 game away from the WCF.
11/10/1/1/3 1.8 TO's .665 TS% lost in 5 in the playoffs.

20/11/7/1.4/.7 3.1 TO's .589 TS%
16/13/2/.8/2.3 1.6 TO's .682 TS%

Both have elite advanced stats across the board. Nuggets won 54 games with Jokic leading the team in PPG, APG, RPG, SPG. Utah won 50 games with Gobert leading his team in RPG/BPG. Mitchell scored almost 8 more points a game. Utah was 2nd in defensive rating and 15th in offensive rating. Denver ranked 6th in offense rating and 10th in defense.

I just don't see the argument for Gobert above Jokic. Jokic can hit 3's, FT's, handle the ball, make any pass on the floor like a PG, great on the glass, can work down low. He was tied for the best DRtg on the Nuggets this season. 2nd best DBPM on the team with 3.8. Led them in DWS's at 4.3. So it's not even like Jokic is bad defensively.

weren't the Nuggets good even without Jokic? The Jazz have been a terrible team without Rudy. He's taken them from the lottery to anywhere between competitive to good to great depending on the personnel around him

[NuggetsFan]

Hmm... I agree it is harder to be the main man with limited offense.

But Bill Russell did it. Considered by many to be one of the GOATS.

The fact is Jokic, Gobert and Embiid are by far the best three centers in the world ATM.

I mean Bill Russell played in an entirely different era/league. Not really comparable.

I agree with those 3 being the best C's tho. Towns should be included as well. I just think Jokic is above Gobert after last year. Maybe that changes next year but as of right now given how last year went I don't see the argument for Gobert. Yeah Gobert sets good screens and helps others score but Jokic is literally like our PG while being our best scorer.

[Xiao Yao You]

I mean Bill Russell played in an entirely different era/league. Not really comparable.

I agree with those 3 being the best C's tho. Towns should be included as well. I just think Jokic is above Gobert after last year. Maybe that changes next year but as of right now given how last year went I don't see the argument for Gobert. Yeah Gobert sets good screens and helps others score but Jokic is literally like our PG while being our best scorer.

When Towns can carry a team than he belongs. Until than he is Cousins without the issues.

The offense and defense is built around Gobert. He's carried them since December of 2014. They were tanking. He ruined their grand plans. Can't wait to see what he does with one of the best offenses in the league around him now! :cheers:

[NuggetsFan]

weren't the Nuggets good even without Jokic? The Jazz have been a terrible team without Rudy. He's taken them from the lottery to anywhere between competitive to good to great depending on the personnel around him

I mean the Nuggets haven't won a playoff series in forever. Since like '08-09 until Jokic came in and averaged an almost triple double vs the Spurs in round 1. As I pointed out above .. he literally leads our team in 4/5 major stats. He only missed 2 games last year.

Nuggets I wanna say were near the top of the league in terms of missed games due to injury. Harris played 57, Barton played 43, Millsap played 70. At one point we were missing 3 starters.

We won 33 wins Jokic's rookie year, 40 wins the next year, 46 wins the year after, 54 wins last season. Each season Jokic's role/minutes grew and we saw the team get better and better.

[Xiao Yao You]

I mean the Nuggets haven't won a playoff series in forever. Since like '08-09 until Jokic came in and averaged an almost triple double vs the Spurs in round 1. As I pointed out above .. he literally leads our team in 4/5 major stats. He only missed 2 games last year.

Nuggets I wanna say were near the top of the league in terms of missed games due to injury. Harris played 57, Barton played 43, Millsap played 70. At one point we were missing 3 starters.

We won 33 wins Jokic's rookie year, 40 wins the next year, 46 wins the year after, 54 wins last season. Each season Jokic's role/minutes grew and we saw the team get better and better.

The Jazz like Denver are built around Gobert offensively. They just do it in different ways. Defensively the Jazz are as well. He missed one game. The last game because it meant nothing. Rest. Gobert has gotten better every year. The Jazz haven't because of changing personnel. If they were a smart franchise and had kept Millsap in his prime instead of tanking who knows what might have been :rant

[ImKobe]

It's up to Jokic and Embiid to prove it.

Looked like the best big man in the world when being defended by a 22 y.o Turner and a bunch of midgets under FIBA rules :roll:

Embiid outplays him H2H and Jokic did work on him too.

[Kblaze8855]

Bill Russell was like fourth in the NBA in assists at one point and was eventually the teams literal coach. Can’t really compare a guy like that to Gobert. There is no modern equivalent of what Bill Russell meant to the Celtics.

And whatever anybody thinks unless there is health to consider at the moment Rudy is not going to be picked over Jokic and Embiid by many of the people trusted to make that decision.

Them beating team USA means as much as when Carlos Arroyo, sarunas jasikevicius, Vspan, Vlade and Peja did it in various years. And all the teams they beat had better players than we just sent.

02 Paul Pierce would be the best player on this team. So would 04 Duncan.

It really doesn’t come down to individual talent anymore. We watched a team with prime Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Paul and so on barely win. In 2000 they won by a single shot with a way more talented team than we just sent. It’s a different game and that should be clear enough by now.


Kevin Garnett, Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, Ray Allen and so on in 2000 literally won by a missed three-pointer at the buzzer up two. And it wasn’t even the gold medal game. It was against sarunas jasikevicius, Darius songiala, and some people most never heard of.

If a team with like seven Hall of Famer’s can be that close to losing to a team with about 1 1/2 NBA players this group of random guys losing to a team with several shouldn’t be that shocking. And it certainly doesn’t mean anybody on the team is anything exceptional. Gobert may be exceptional but he doesn’t prove it beating the worst group of pros ever(aside from the CBA all stars sent during the 99 lockout).

Most of the nba could beat this team. Hell all of the nba. Knowing how to play together matters. I’m not sure some of the college Olympic teams from when people stayed in school couldn’t beat this team.

Gobert and Fornier did it. You betting against 84 Jordan, Ewing, and Mullin?

[Xiao Yao You]

Looked like the best big man in the world when being defended by a 22 y.o Turner and a bunch of midgets under FIBA rules :roll:

Embiid outplays him H2H and Jokic did work on him too.

Not really. The first game against Philly Gobert certainly got the best of him. Philly won because they put Embiid on the 3 point line and got Rudy away from the rim.

Jokic got the best of him in at least one game and Gobert got the best of him in at least one. Won't be so easy this year because you will have to cover all 5 guys on the floor(unless Exum is in). No Bricky or Favors to leave open while you double Mitchell or sag on Gobert

[Xiao Yao You]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Bill Russell was like fourth in the NBA in assists at one point and was eventually the teams literal coach. Can

[ImKobe]

Not really. The first game against Philly Gobert certainly got the best of him. Philly won because they put Embiid on the 3 point line and got Rudy away from the rim.

Jokic got the best of him in at least one game and Gobert got the best of him in at least one. Won't be so easy this year because you will have to cover all 5 guys on the floor(unless Exum is in). No Bricky or Favors to leave open while you double Mitchell or sag on Gobert

Pretty sure that Embiid was the reason Philly won that first game if you're referring to last season, but I'm just responding to OP's stupid overreaction after one international game against a team with a weak frontcourt. We all agree that Gobert is a top 15-20 NBA player so beating the weakest version of Team USA doesn't automatically put him above Embiid and Jokic.

Rudy's the best defensive big man in the league but Embiid and Jokic have the full package on offense while Gobert's game is quite limited on that end.

[Xiao Yao You]

Pretty sure that Embiid was the reason Philly won that first game if you're referring to last season, but I'm just responding to OP's stupid overreaction after one international game against a team with a weak frontcourt. We all agree that Gobert is a top 15-20 NBA player so beating the weakest version of Team USA doesn't automatically put him above Embiid and Jokic.

Rudy's the best defensive big man in the league but Embiid and Jokic have the full package on offense while Gobert's game is quite limited on that end.

7-20 1-4 3pt 26 minutes played in game one probably because of the 4 fouls. They won because he drew Rudy away from the rim by standing at the 3 point line

Had a big game in the 2nd one as did Gobert

Jokic is limited defensively. There's two sides of the court

[Xiao Yao You]

Jazz took 3 of 4 from Denver.

Jokic missed a triple double in the first one because he shot poorly and turned the ball over(Gobert effect). Gobert was average 12/12. Denver won at home

Next game Jokic was great and Gobert not at his best from the field but got to the line(5 fouls on Jokic) 15/8/3 ass/3 blk. Jazz won at home

held Jokic down again from the field in the next one plus caused 5 turnovers by the big man. Rudy 16/8/4 blocks. Both were in foul trouble. Jazz won a mile high

Last game Jokic fouled out in 16 minutes with another bad night from the field. Rudy with 20/10 Jazz win again in Zion

If I remember correctly Jokic got ejected in one of them too? Based on those 4 games I imagine Gobert is the last guy he wants to face and one of the toughest matchups for Denver. Only gets tougher this year with a real team around Rudy

[Smoke117]

7-20 1-4 3pt 26 minutes played in game one probably because of the 4 fouls. They won because he drew Rudy away from the rim by standing at the 3 point line

Had a big game in the 2nd one as did Gobert

Jokic is limited defensively. There's two sides of the court

Jokic has a bigger overall impact, period. Joel Embiid has a bigger overall impact, period. Gobert is not the best center in the NBA, period. Some silly international game doesn't change anything.

[imdaman99]

Gobert has a great deal of impact for the Jazz but I'll take Jokic. Both of them take the game more seriously than Embiid though, who should be the best but I need him to prove it out there.

[fourkicks44]

Hmmm....

Embiid comparable offense to Jockic.

Embiid comparable defense to Gobert.

Jockic incomparable defense to Gobert.

Gobert incomparable offense to Jockic

[Xiao Yao You]

Embiid comparable durability to Yao Ming

[NuggetsFan]

Jokic is limited defensively. There's two sides of the court

He's not tho. Not anymore so than any C in this era. Gobert literally played 24 minutes in a playoff game because they kept making him switch. Just like they do to Jokic sometimes, and every other big men in the league. I've already posted Jokic's defensive stats which are all either 1st-3rd on the entire team and the Nuggets had a top 15 defense.

I just don't understand how you can say with a straight face that a guy that averaged 11/11 with 2.6 blocks is better than someone who just averaged 25/13/8 in the playoffs. Even in the regular season. Jokic is one of how many players in the entire league that can lead his team in 4 major stats? How many teams this year won 50+ games with 1 All-Star? Ignoring numbers Jokic is an elite passer, elite shooter for a big man, elite inside, elite handle for a big men, average defender, and very good on the glass. Gobert is better on the glass, better at dunking, better at setting screens. He's literally better at 3 things.

I really like Gobert as a player but he averages 12/10/1 with 2 blocks in 25 playoffs game. He's older and been in the league longer than Jokic as well :confusedshrug:

[NuggetsFan]

Hmmm....

Embiid comparable offense to Jockic.

Embiid comparable defense to Gobert.

Jockic incomparable defense to Gobert.

Gobert incomparable offense to Jockic

Your insane if you think there comparable offensively. Jokic will most likely go down as the greatest passing C in the history of the game. Jokic can do everything offensively which is why all of his offensive stats blown Gobert's out of the water.

Jokic's defense is really underrated. Nuggets had the 10th best defense I believe this year and that's with a ton of injuries.

Jokic's DRtg was 105, his DBPM, was 3.8, had 4.3 DW's. All near the top of his team, and not that far behind the other two. Jokic just can't block shots. He's a very intelligent player who knows positioning, has very quick hands which is why he led the Nuggets in steals, and has improved in alot of areas.

He wasn't the one getting yanked in a playoff game because he kept getting switched on a guard. Gobert played 24 minutes, and only 30 MPG in the playoffs for a reason :confusedshrug:

[fourkicks44]

He's not tho. Not anymore so than any C in this era. Gobert literally played 24 minutes in a playoff game because they kept making him switch. Just like they do to Jokic sometimes, and every other big men in the league. I've already posted Jokic's defensive stats which are all either 1st-3rd on the entire team and the Nuggets had a top 15 defense.

I just don't understand how you can say with a straight face that a guy that averaged 11/11 with 2.6 blocks is better than someone who just averaged 25/13/8 in the playoffs. Even in the regular season. Jokic is one of how many players in the entire league that can lead his team in 4 major stats? How many teams this year won 50+ games with 1 All-Star? Ignoring numbers Jokic is an elite passer, elite shooter for a big man, elite inside, elite handle for a big men, average defender, and very good on the glass. Gobert is better on the glass, better at dunking, better at setting screens. He's literally better at 3 things.

I really like Gobert as a player but he averages 12/10/1 with 2 blocks in 25 playoffs game. He's older and been in the league longer than Jokic as well :confusedshrug:

It's all about swithchablity, man. That is what is required to be an elite defender this day and age.

Gobert and Embiid a well more equipped and able than Jokic. It's just a fact.

[Xiao Yao You]

He's not tho. Not anymore so than any C in this era. Gobert literally played 24 minutes in a playoff game because they kept making him switch. Just like they do to Jokic sometimes, and every other big men in the league. I've already posted Jokic's defensive stats which are all either 1st-3rd on the entire team and the Nuggets had a top 15 defense.

I just don't understand how you can say with a straight face that a guy that averaged 11/11 with 2.6 blocks is better than someone who just averaged 25/13/8 in the playoffs. Even in the regular season. Jokic is one of how many players in the entire league that can lead his team in 4 major stats? How many teams this year won 50+ games with 1 All-Star? Ignoring numbers Jokic is an elite passer, elite shooter for a big man, elite inside, elite handle for a big men, average defender, and very good on the glass. Gobert is better on the glass, better at dunking, better at setting screens. He's literally better at 3 things.

I really like Gobert as a player but he averages 12/10/1 with 2 blocks in 25 playoffs game. He's older and been in the league longer than Jokic as well :confusedshrug:

Gobert sat because Favors was going good. He has no problem switching.

How many teams won 50 with no all-stars other than the Jazz?

Gobert is the best defender. In a select class of guys that won DPOTY 2 years in a row. The best finisher in the game. You do know that the dunk is still the most efficient shot in the game and Rudy set a new record for dunks? You do know he's the best at setting screens in the whole league? That is the Jazz offense just as running the offense through Jokic is Denver's. He's better at running the floor. He's more athletic. He won the head to head matchup clearly too.

Denver had a better team around Jokic. Gobert has taken a lottery team places.

[fourkicks44]

Your insane if you think there comparable offensively. Jokic will most likely go down as the greatest passing C in the history of the game. Jokic can do everything offensively which is why all of his offensive stats blown Gobert's out of the water.

Jokic's defense is really underrated. Nuggets had the 10th best defense I believe this year and that's with a ton of injuries.

Jokic's DRtg was 105, his DBPM, was 3.8, had 4.3 DW's. All near the top of his team, and not that far behind the other two. Jokic just can't block shots. He's a very intelligent player who knows positioning, has very quick hands which is why he led the Nuggets in steals, and has improved in alot of areas.

He wasn't the one getting yanked in a playoff game because he kept getting switched on a guard. Gobert played 24 minutes, and only 30 MPG in the playoffs for a reason :confusedshrug:

I am insane then.

[NuggetsFan]

Gobert sat because Favors was going good. He has no problem switching.

How many teams won 50 with no all-stars other than the Jazz?

Gobert is the best defender. In a select class of guys that won DPOTY 2 years in a row. The best finisher in the game. You do know that the dunk is still the most efficient shot in the game and Rudy set a new record for dunks? You do know he's the best at setting screens in the whole league? That is the Jazz offense just as running the offense through Jokic is Denver's. He's better at running the floor. He's more athletic. He won the head to head matchup clearly too.

Denver had a better team around Jokic. Gobert has taken a lottery team places.

Yeah but you can't always get a dunk which is why Gobert averaged 11 points in the playoffs this year and 12 for his career. It's why Jokic so was so successful in the playoffs. He's so versatile it's tough for teams to shut down. Denver has a better team around Jokic? I mean maybe. It's certainly debatable. Weird debate given Gobert played 24 minutes in Utah's only playoff win, and in the regular season Mitchell was there leading scorer by 8 whopping points while Jokic lead Denver in PPG/APG/RPG/SPG.

Jokic was first team All-NBA and 4th in MVP voting for a reason. Like do you actually think Gobert was as good/better than Jokic last year in the regular season/playoffs?

[NuggetsFan]

It's all about swithchablity, man. That is what is required to be an elite defender this day and age.

Gobert and Embiid a well more equipped and able than Jokic. It's just a fact.

They are absolutely better at switching. Both can struggle with it like any big men.

Jokic has good defensive numbers, and Denver was a good defensive team. He ranges anywhere to average/above average defensively depending on the matchup.

[NuggetsFan]

I am insane then.

No doubt if you think there comparable offensively.

[Xiao Yao You]

Yeah but you can't always get a dunk which is why Gobert averaged 11 points in the playoffs this year and 12 for his career. It's why Jokic so was so successful in the playoffs. He's so versatile it's tough for teams to shut down. Denver has a better team around Jokic? I mean maybe. It's certainly debatable. Weird debate given Gobert played 24 minutes in Utah's only playoff win, and in the regular season Mitchell was there leading scorer by 8 whopping points while Jokic lead Denver in PPG/APG/RPG/SPG.

Jokic was first team All-NBA and 4th in MVP voting for a reason. Like do you actually think Gobert was as good/better than Jokic last year in the regular season/playoffs?

I never said either was better. Gobert is certainly one of the best players in the game rather anyone likes the idea or not. His only problem in the playoffs has been playing with what is otherwise a lottery team without him. That was solved in the off-season. Good luck stopping them now. No more leaving shooters wide open because they can't shoot.

[Smoke117]

I never said either was better. Gobert is certainly one of the best players in the game rather anyone likes the idea or not. His only problem in the playoffs has been playing with what is otherwise a lottery team without him. That was solved in the off-season. Good luck stopping them now. No more leaving shooters wide open because they can't shoot.

They'll win a lot of regular season games, but in the playoffs you need superstars and the Jazz don't even have one while teams in the West like the Lakers and Clippers have two. (assuming Paul George's season last year wasn't an outlier)

[Xiao Yao You]

They'll win a lot of regular season games, but in the playoffs you need superstars and the Jazz don't even have one while teams in the West like the Lakers and Clippers have two. (assuming Paul George's season last year wasn't an outlier)

Gobert is a superstar and Mitchell could be

[Smoke117]

Gobert is a superstar and Mitchell could be

Ahhahha, good one. Gobert a superstar. That's adorable.

Even if you could argue that in the regular season, it clearly doesn't carry over to the playoffs. Mitchell also has little chance of becoming a superstar this upcoming season. Maybe he should become an allstar first? At this point I'd argue that Conley is a better player. He is one of the most underrated players in the league as far as his impact on the offensive end. He was a top 10 player in that regard this past season and two years ago when he had his best season.

[AirTupac]

Gobert is a superstar and Mitchell could be


HAHAHAHHAHAHA

[NuggetsFan]

I never said either was better. Gobert is certainly one of the best players in the game rather anyone likes the idea or not. His only problem in the playoffs has been playing with what is otherwise a lottery team without him. That was solved in the off-season. Good luck stopping them now. No more leaving shooters wide open because they can't shoot.

I think Gobert impacts the game alot and is really good. I'm not debating that. Some of the things you say are just delusional tho. His only problem in the playoffs is his team? But there only win against Houston came when Gobert scored 4 points and played 24 minutes? :confusedshrug: he averaged 11 points and Utah could have absolutely used more offense/a better defense.

Utah was 10th in 3 point field goal % last season. Nuggets were 17th. Utah was 10th in 3 point makes last year. Nuggets were 18th. Those are just facts. Utah didn't shoot well in the playoffs, but neither did Denver. We made .2 more 3's and shot 34% vs 26% but we also played 9 more games so a bigger sample size.

[Xiao Yao You]

I think Gobert impacts the game alot and is really good. I'm not debating that. Some of the things you say are just delusional tho. His only problem in the playoffs is his team? But there only win against Houston came when Gobert scored 4 points and played 24 minutes? :confusedshrug: he averaged 11 points and Utah could have absolutely used more offense/a better defense.

Utah was 10th in 3 point field goal % last season. Nuggets were 17th. Utah was 10th in 3 point makes last year. Nuggets were 18th. Those are just facts. Utah didn't shoot well in the playoffs, but neither did Denver. We made .2 more 3's and shot 34% vs 26% but we also played 9 more games so a bigger sample size.

Jazz live and died by the 3. Now they have guys that will hit them consistently.

Their defense was fine in the playoffs the past two years. Their offense sucked. That was fixed

[Kblaze8855]

Incredibly biased homers telling people that what they think is true whether anyone likes it or not are always funny to me. As if you being passionate about the subject makes you correct about it. Rudy is a very good big but it

[tpols]

Incredibly biased homers telling people that what they think is true whether anyone likes it or not are always funny to me. As if you being passionate about the subject makes you correct about it. Rudy is a very good big but it’s unlikely he’s ever anything more than that. Nobody with his skill set on offense has been a truly elite player in probably 50 years. And for most of the leagues history guys like him could make more of a difference.

Guys like he and Deandre out here shooting 68-70 percent because they have so little talent not because they are good scorers. If he were somebody you could give the ball to expect something he would be used in ways that would not allow him to shoot those ridiculous percentages.

He deserves credit for being an impact player despite his shortcomings and nobody questions his defensive ability. He just isn’t anyone a rational fan puts up there with the elites.

He’s elite like Nuggets or Hawks Mutombo was elite.

Great guy to have. But not David Robinson or Patrick Ewing. Or even Zo.

He just doesn’t have enough to offer on offense beyond screens and easy dunks you can’t rely on. When the other guy can defend....and score? It’s not close anymore. You want to make up that difference you better have Bill Russell impact and nobody can have that impact these days because he was an outlier in a league that didn’t value defense yet.

Long as guys like Leonard and Embiid can shut you and/or your team down and drop 35 he’s not an elite two way player. He’s an elite defensive player in a league with other great defenders who can also score.

It’s not disregarding defense. It’s acknowledging that a lot of people can do both. He can play D and set screens. Others can play d and eliminate you from the playoffs down the stretch individually....




Gobert's defense far exceeds leonard and especially embiid's... thats an embarrassing equivalency to make.

But their gap on offense is bigger, true.

[Xiao Yao You]

Gobert's defense far exceeds leonard and especially embiid's... thats an embarrassing equivalency to make.

But their gap on offense is bigger, true.

his D exceeds Jordan or Ewing too. Better rebounder than Ewing and Mourning. Mutumbo wasn't the athlete he is

[Gougou]

Nah, he is just the best defensive center in NBA.

In overall ability, Jokic and Embiid are way better, I would even pick AD over him.

[Doranku]

He's not nearly as effective in the playoffs because he's too easy to gameplan for offensively. His defense is great, yeah, but when you're limited offensively like he is, so is your ceiling.

[Kblaze8855]

Gobert's defense far exceeds leonard and especially embiid's... thats an embarrassing equivalency to make.

But their gap on offense is bigger, true.


A healthy Leonard is as good on defense as anyone but hes not a big so his total team impact is limited and Embiid vs Rudy is like a 7 or 8 vs a 10....with the offense being a 5 or so vs a 9.


his D exceeds Jordan or Ewing too. Better rebounder than Ewing and Mourning. Mutumbo wasn't the athlete he is


Assuming you mean Deandre Jordan....of course. Ewing? Nah not really. The 90s Knicks had better defenses than the Jazz and he was a large part of the reason. Ewing was all D team over Hakeem at times. Hes remembered as a scorer but those Knick teams didnt win with offense and he was the anchor without question. His style of defense would be less required today but it is what it is. The rebounding is hard to even compare. Gobert plays in a league of soft stretch bigs with few teams even willing to play 2 traditional bigs at the same time.

Cut the pace down and put both Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason on the same floor with the likes of Hakeem and Otis Thorpe together in the lineup. Who today plays both Shaq and Horace Grant? Zo and Larry Johnson? Barkley and Hakeem? Daugherty and Larry Nance? Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman? Parish, Mchale, and Bird? Who trots out a lineup with Sabonis...and rebounding specialists like Chris Dudley and Buck Williams? Who sends out the huge lineup like the Spurs did starting 3 bigs for half a season with Duncan being the shortest of them? If the Jazz play the Spurs with Drob/Duncan/Perdue starting....3 bigs the least of which averaged 10 rebounds a game the year before....you think hes as likely to get 16 rebounds in a game as he would be today?

When Ewing has 6 rebounds vs the 76ers....who start both Moses Malone and Charles Barkley....we assuming he has 6 vs many teams today? When Ewing has 9 rebounds vs the Pistons when they get 70+ minutes out of Laimbeer and Rodman and Oakley plays 38 next to him.....is he likely to play that level of rebounding in any game today? The worst rebounder in that group led the NBA in it once....

Rebounding numbers in a league devoid of dominant bigs that wants its 4s to stretch the floor more than control the paint....compared to the 80s/90s when teams wanted multiple physical bigs?


Is gobert going to play a game in his entire career with 3 rebounders the equal of Rodman/Laimbeer/Oakley on the court the whole game? Is 27/10 for a playoff series that includes Rodman, Laimbeer, and Oakley a little harder to get than 11/10 in a series vs Capela and a 6'5'' swingman at the 4 with Favors best rebounder also on your team?

Gobert would still be a good player 20-30 years ago but hed have a much harder time being a dominant rebounder. Bigmen in 1990 were trying to put you on the floor more than stretch it.

A guy like Mutombo, Ewing, or Mourning would appear to be better rebounders today than they did at the time. And they were good to great then.

Todays 13 rebounds is not 1990s 13 as far as the rest of the NBA trying to stop you from getting them. Prime Ewing would be getting about the same 13-14 a game Embiid does if only due to fewer people to compete with for them. Some old small forward who is too fat to play on the wings so hes a stretch 4 now isnt trying to fight for a rebound like Patrick Ewing would. And Ewing never had Joe Ingles on his team either. He had Charles Oakley on his team till he was 36. Swap Joe Ingles for Charles Oakley who once had 35 rebounds in a game and see if Gobert gets the same number himself. At one point Ewing had Oakley....Buck Williams...and Chris Dudley. All of whom were there to do little but rebound and control the lane....which is exactly what Ewing was there to do....while also scoring 20-25 a night and being an elite man to man post defender.


Even when Ewing wasnt with other great rebounders(a small fraction of his career) he was in a league that wouldnt play small ball and concede the paint to whatever big you trotted out there because they know they can exploit him on switches till you either take him out or let their guards go off.

The situations arent close to the same.

[tanibanana]

He is perhaps the best defensive Center right now, but no way in hell I

[90sgoat]

I don't really care about stats.

Gobert, clearly, and by a huge margin, was the more important player for his national team.

Gobert contributed to winning.

I also think the Jazz can be legit next season. Very strong team.

[brutalBBQ]

Baynes > Gobert
show me a clip where Rudy makes a 3

[90sgoat]

Baynes > Gobert
show me a clip where Rudy makes a 3

We'll see:oldlol:

[brutalBBQ]

We'll see:oldlol:
Turner got overlooked too

[Xiao Yao You]

A healthy Leonard is as good on defense as anyone but hes not a big so his total team impact is limited and Embiid vs Rudy is like a 7 or 8 vs a 10....with the offense being a 5 or so vs a 9.




Assuming you mean Deandre Jordan....of course. Ewing? Nah not really. The 90s Knicks had better defenses than the Jazz and he was a large part of the reason. Ewing was all D team over Hakeem at times. Hes remembered as a scorer but those Knick teams didnt win with offense and he was the anchor without question. His style of defense would be less required today but it is what it is. The rebounding is hard to even compare. Gobert plays in a league of soft stretch bigs with few teams even willing to play 2 traditional bigs at the same time.

Cut the pace down and put both Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason on the same floor with the likes of Hakeem and Otis Thorpe together in the lineup. Who today plays both Shaq and Horace Grant? Zo and Larry Johnson? Barkley and Hakeem? Daugherty and Larry Nance? Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman? Parish, Mchale, and Bird? Who trots out a lineup with Sabonis...and rebounding specialists like Chris Dudley and Buck Williams? Who sends out the huge lineup like the Spurs did starting 3 bigs for half a season with Duncan being the shortest of them? If the Jazz play the Spurs with Drob/Duncan/Perdue starting....3 bigs the least of which averaged 10 rebounds a game the year before....you think hes as likely to get 16 rebounds in a game as he would be today?

When Ewing has 6 rebounds vs the 76ers....who start both Moses Malone and Charles Barkley....we assuming he has 6 vs many teams today? When Ewing has 9 rebounds vs the Pistons when they get 70+ minutes out of Laimbeer and Rodman and Oakley plays 38 next to him.....is he likely to play that level of rebounding in any game today? The worst rebounder in that group led the NBA in it once....

Rebounding numbers in a league devoid of dominant bigs that wants its 4s to stretch the floor more than control the paint....compared to the 80s/90s when teams wanted multiple physical bigs?


Is gobert going to play a game in his entire career with 3 rebounders the equal of Rodman/Laimbeer/Oakley on the court the whole game? Is 27/10 for a playoff series that includes Rodman, Laimbeer, and Oakley a little harder to get than 11/10 in a series vs Capela and a 6'5'' swingman at the 4 with Favors best rebounder also on your team?

Gobert would still be a good player 20-30 years ago but hed have a much harder time being a dominant rebounder. Bigmen in 1990 were trying to put you on the floor more than stretch it.

A guy like Mutombo, Ewing, or Mourning would appear to be better rebounders today than they did at the time. And they were good to great then.

Todays 13 rebounds is not 1990s 13 as far as the rest of the NBA trying to stop you from getting them. Prime Ewing would be getting about the same 13-14 a game Embiid does if only due to fewer people to compete with for them. Some old small forward who is too fat to play on the wings so hes a stretch 4 now isnt trying to fight for a rebound like Patrick Ewing would. And Ewing never had Joe Ingles on his team either. He had Charles Oakley on his team till he was 36. Swap Joe Ingles for Charles Oakley who once had 35 rebounds in a game and see if Gobert gets the same number himself. At one point Ewing had Oakley....Buck Williams...and Chris Dudley. All of whom were there to do little but rebound and control the lane....which is exactly what Ewing was there to do....while also scoring 20-25 a night and being an elite man to man post defender.


Even when Ewing wasnt with other great rebounders(a small fraction of his career) he was in a league that wouldnt play small ball and concede the paint to whatever big you trotted out there because they know they can exploit him on switches till you either take him out or let their guards go off.

The situations arent close to the same.

Knicks had better D when basketball was closer to the NFL. I never saw Ewing on the level of Hakeem, Robinson or Mourning defensively. I compare Ewing as not a great rebounder for his era vs Gobert as a great rebounder for his era. You want to put Will Perdue at the 3 go ahead! Teams today don't go after offensive boards like they used to either. Sacrifice it to getting back in transition d

[Xiao Yao You]

Baynes > Gobert
show me a clip where Rudy makes a 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz7DSK4cfdM

confidence is the only thing that holds him back offensively

[superduper]

Would Gobert even be top 10 C in the 90s :oldlol:

Pathetic era for big men and rim protection as a whole.

[Kblaze8855]

Knicks had better D when basketball was closer to the NFL.

The Knicks had better D period. The NBA deciding to go softer in 05 and totally whip cream it in like 2015 doesnt mean this last few years is what basketball has traditionally been or usually is. This run Rudy is in....thats the anomaly. Ewing played what has traditionally been considered basketball and what is basketball in most of the world now.



never saw Ewing on the level of Hakeem, Robinson or Mourning defensively.

Rudy wouldnt have been either. The standards then were so high because so many bigs were there who took pride in protecting the paint and it was still the most important part of the game. Ewing was named all D team by the coaches over a Hakeem who put up 3 steals and 3 blocks a game on a great defense. A lot of those guys were amazing defenders.....but having so many at once made all of them seem normal. Drop one by himself into todays league he would seem an outlier like Rudy....only being able to perform on offense at the same time.





I compare Ewing as not a great rebounder for his era vs Gobert as a great rebounder for his era. You want to put Will Perdue at the 3 go ahead! Teams today don't go after offensive boards like they used to either. Sacrifice it to getting back in transition d

Well how else could you? You certainly cant go past the surface and take a good look into the circumstances and be fair....it wouldnt benefit Rudy to do that.

It is funny to me you are going all "For the era..." now but use Ewings defensive minded era as a reason to dismiss his teams better defenses....when they were better relative to the league as well. At least by defensive rating. Both peaked at best in opponent PPG both by limiting their own pace of play. Anyway....

Fact is...you put a guy next to Rudy for 10 years who is capable of pulling down 35 boards and hes sure as hell gonna get some of his. Put him in a league with multiple teams with multiple rebound specialists that played together....in a league that required him to defend his man well on a far more regular basis so he couldnt roam as well. All these modern bigs rebound numbers are easier to achieve due to less people making it their mission to get them.

In the 94 finals you had Ewing, Oakley, Hakeem, and Otis Thorpe fighting for the same pool of rebounds. Theres a set number.....you just dont get as many individually as you do now vs teams that dont really like having even one true old school big...much less two.

Theres a reason Blake got 12 rebounds a game....and suddenly stopped being a double double guy when Deandre Jordan came into his own and started getting 13-15 a game. And im sure if Drummond weren't next to him now getting 16 a game he would get more than 7.5.

Rudy does not play in a league of rebounders. He plays in a league of soft bigs who allow him to shine more than he could in Ewings league. Ewing got votes for best rebounder in the league in the old GM surveys. Hes not gonna have that many by the numbers playing with Oakley...and later Anthony Mason too(who himself got 11 a game once he got off the Knicks).

This is where you have to ignore the numbers and have just....seen the team play. The Knicks gang rebounded and not by plucking missed long threes at 16 feet. By fighting under the basket.

The leagues were not the same and it has to be factored in to even try to be accurate.

It is simply easier to be a standout rebounder in a league without so many great bigs trying to do it.

[jayfan]

Again, my issue with Gobert is that he has failed to live up to his billing in two consecutive post-season defeats now.

Both were against Houston, so some will say they're just a bad match-up for him. But I'm not buying it. If you're going to be crowned 'the best' anything in the league, you'd better be able to find a way to produce when the games get real and the pressure is on.

I'm sure he played great for France. But there was no pressure. And the US team apparently wasn't very good.



.

[NuggetsFan]

Rudy does not play in a league of rebounders. He plays in a league of soft bigs who allow him to shine more than he could in Ewings league.


I mean this is abit much. Rebounding will never not to be important. No matter how much the league changes defensively/rules wise. Despite taking waaaay more 3's than they did in the 90's the league gives up less offensive rebounds today than they did back than. Last year there was an average of 10.3 offensive rebounds vs 12.6-14 in the 90's. I think like alot of things the mindset has changed. I'd say less/worse rebound specialists and more of a team approach.

One could also argue that the NBA gears everything towards perimeter players in this era so pretty much every big is at a disadvantage. Someone like Gobert wouldn't have been penalized for not being able to space the floor. Houston for example like most teams make bigs constantly switch on defense. Even going back to like 2000-2007 some coaches preferred not to switch. I remember Nene occasionally getting switched onto Steve Nash in some sets and it being wild to watch. In 2019 it's going to happen multiple times a game. Teams come into the game with the mindset of running whatever is needed to make that happen. Houston did it to Gobert in the playoffs which limited is minutes, that doesn't happen in 1992. Gobert not having to worry about switching onto perimeter players, or having to run out to the 3 point line .. would be much better defensively like every single big in the league.

Not to mention the lack of physical play hurts big men the most outside of some of the more undersized/finesse players. Someone like Kevin Love or Chris Bosh? Yeah there better suited for today's game. Gobert? Much better suited to be able to play physical.

[stalkerforlife]

Gobert embarrassing today.

Scola hammered him.

[Team_Chemistry]

Luis Scola:

28 pts
13 rebs
2 asist
3/4 3PT

Rudy "DPOY" Gobert:

3 pts
11 rebs
1/3 FG
1/4 FT.




:lol

[Xiao Yao You]

The Knicks had better D period. The NBA deciding to go softer in 05 and totally whip cream it in like 2015 doesnt mean this last few years is what basketball has traditionally been or usually is. This run Rudy is in....thats the anomaly. Ewing played what has traditionally been considered basketball and what is basketball in most of the world now.




Rudy wouldnt have been either. The standards then were so high because so many bigs were there who took pride in protecting the paint and it was still the most important part of the game. Ewing was named all D team by the coaches over a Hakeem who put up 3 steals and 3 blocks a game on a great defense. A lot of those guys were amazing defenders.....but having so many at once made all of them seem normal. Drop one by himself into todays league he would seem an outlier like Rudy....only being able to perform on offense at the same time.






Well how else could you? You certainly cant go past the surface and take a good look into the circumstances and be fair....it wouldnt benefit Rudy to do that.

It is funny to me you are going all "For the era..." now but use Ewings defensive minded era as a reason to dismiss his teams better defenses....when they were better relative to the league as well. At least by defensive rating. Both peaked at best in opponent PPG both by limiting their own pace of play. Anyway....

Fact is...you put a guy next to Rudy for 10 years who is capable of pulling down 35 boards and hes sure as hell gonna get some of his. Put him in a league with multiple teams with multiple rebound specialists that played together....in a league that required him to defend his man well on a far more regular basis so he couldnt roam as well. All these modern bigs rebound numbers are easier to achieve due to less people making it their mission to get them.

In the 94 finals you had Ewing, Oakley, Hakeem, and Otis Thorpe fighting for the same pool of rebounds. Theres a set number.....you just dont get as many individually as you do now vs teams that dont really like having even one true old school big...much less two.

Theres a reason Blake got 12 rebounds a game....and suddenly stopped being a double double guy when Deandre Jordan came into his own and started getting 13-15 a game. And im sure if Drummond weren't next to him now getting 16 a game he would get more than 7.5.

Rudy does not play in a league of rebounders. He plays in a league of soft bigs who allow him to shine more than he could in Ewings league. Ewing got votes for best rebounder in the league in the old GM surveys. Hes not gonna have that many by the numbers playing with Oakley...and later Anthony Mason too(who himself got 11 a game once he got off the Knicks).

This is where you have to ignore the numbers and have just....seen the team play. The Knicks gang rebounded and not by plucking missed long threes at 16 feet. By fighting under the basket.

The leagues were not the same and it has to be factored in to even try to be accurate.

It is simply easier to be a standout rebounder in a league without so many great bigs trying to do it.

Eaton is considered a great defender too. You going to tell me that stiff was better too? :lol

[Xiao Yao You]

Again, my issue with Gobert is that he has failed to live up to his billing in two consecutive post-season defeats now.

Both were against Houston, so some will say they're just a bad match-up for him. But I'm not buying it. If you're going to be crowned 'the best' anything in the league, you'd better be able to find a way to produce when the games get real and the pressure is on.

I'm sure he played great for France. But there was no pressure. And the US team apparently wasn't very good.



.

He's been carrying a lottery team. See what he does this year with guys that actually fit with him for the first time who aren't injured or too old

[Xiao Yao You]

I mean this is abit much. Rebounding will never not to be important. No matter how much the league changes defensively/rules wise. Despite taking waaaay more 3's than they did in the 90's the league gives up less offensive rebounds today than they did back than. Last year there was an average of 10.3 offensive rebounds vs 12.6-14 in the 90's. I think like alot of things the mindset has changed. I'd say less/worse rebound specialists and more of a team approach.

One could also argue that the NBA gears everything towards perimeter players in this era so pretty much every big is at a disadvantage. Someone like Gobert wouldn't have been penalized for not being able to space the floor. Houston for example like most teams make bigs constantly switch on defense. Even going back to like 2000-2007 some coaches preferred not to switch. I remember Nene occasionally getting switched onto Steve Nash in some sets and it being wild to watch. In 2019 it's going to happen multiple times a game. Teams come into the game with the mindset of running whatever is needed to make that happen. Houston did it to Gobert in the playoffs which limited is minutes, that doesn't happen in 1992. Gobert not having to worry about switching onto perimeter players, or having to run out to the 3 point line .. would be much better defensively like every single big in the league.

Not to mention the lack of physical play hurts big men the most outside of some of the more undersized/finesse players. Someone like Kevin Love or Chris Bosh? Yeah there better suited for today's game. Gobert? Much better suited to be able to play physical.

Big guys that can push Rudy around are his toughest matchups actually

[Kblaze8855]

I mean this is abit much. Rebounding will never not to be important. No matter how much the league changes defensively/rules wise. Despite taking waaaay more 3's than they did in the 90's the league gives up less offensive rebounds today than they did back than. Last year there was an average of 10.3 offensive rebounds vs 12.6-14 in the 90's. I think like alot of things the mindset has changed. I'd say less/worse rebound specialists and more of a team approach.

One could also argue that the NBA gears everything towards perimeter players in this era so pretty much every big is at a disadvantage. Someone like Gobert wouldn't have been penalized for not being able to space the floor. Houston for example like most teams make bigs constantly switch on defense. Even going back to like 2000-2007 some coaches preferred not to switch. I remember Nene occasionally getting switched onto Steve Nash in some sets and it being wild to watch. In 2019 it's going to happen multiple times a game. Teams come into the game with the mindset of running whatever is needed to make that happen. Houston did it to Gobert in the playoffs which limited is minutes, that doesn't happen in 1992. Gobert not having to worry about switching onto perimeter players, or having to run out to the 3 point line .. would be much better defensively like every single big in the league.

Not to mention the lack of physical play hurts big men the most outside of some of the more undersized/finesse players. Someone like Kevin Love or Chris Bosh? Yeah there better suited for today's game. Gobert? Much better suited to be able to play physical.


Of course the league is geared toward the perimeter which is why it

[Kblaze8855]

Eaton is considered a great defender too. You going to tell me that stiff was better too? :lol


If all it takes to be defensive player of the year and block six shots a game is being 7’4” more than three people on this forum might know who priest Lauderdale was.

That said....he would be a spot player on most teams now because nobody cares about stopping shots at the basket if you can’t switch.

Anyway....there’s teams Rudy would be a defensive liability against at times. I watched the defensive player of the year get benched for defensive reasons as one of those nugget fans was talking about earlier. He must’ve had to switch onto Chris Paul and get put in a blender 8 times one game I saw.

I don’t like the way they acquiesce to those switches instead of a guard fighting through these days but that’s another discussion.

[NuggetsFan]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Of course the league is geared toward the perimeter which is why it

[NuggetsFan]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]

I don

[Xiao Yao You]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]If all it takes to be defensive player of the year and block six shots a game is being 7

[Xiao Yao You]

How does that make it easier? All the rules are there to make perimeter players better. Shaq would foul out within 10 minutes if he played the same way today. You don't think there's a bunch of C's in the league that would love to play bully ball down low? I mean shit forget C's even a guy like Melo isn't allowed to beat up guys down near the hoop like he could when he was younger. You think having to space the floor is a good thing for the average big man?

I agree he wouldn't be All-NBA tho. Those guys are better players in any era, at any point in time. There are a bunch of C's who would be much better suited playing in the 90's than today's league and I think all the players your mentioning would be better in the era they played in rather than today's game. Like Jahil Okafor would be better in 1996 where as Patrick Ewing's defense would get worse having to switch onto guards all game long and having teams draw him away from the paint.

Rebounding as I pointed out hasn't got worse. Despite the insane 3 point attempts that lead to long offensive rebounds the league gives up less of them. There just aren't rebounding specialists anymore. It's more team oriented. Just like defense. In 2019 good team defense with all the spacing/ball movement/spam plays etc. is more valuable than having 1 guy who can lock players up 1 vs 1. It's not 2005. Not a ton of teams let a guy just ISO non stop.

Yep people would be targeting Shaq and Ewing in the high pick and roll today

Teams don't hit the offensive glass like they used to. They get back in transition D instead

[Kblaze8855]

How does that make it easier? All the rules are there to make perimeter players better. Shaq would foul out within 10 minutes if he played the same way today. You don't think there's a bunch of C's in the league that would love to play bully ball down low? I mean shit forget C's even a guy like Melo isn't allowed to beat up guys down near the hoop like he could when he was younger. You think having to space the floor is a good thing for the average big man?

I agree he wouldn't be All-NBA tho. Those guys are better players in any era, at any point in time. There are a bunch of C's who would be much better suited playing in the 90's than today's league and I think all the players your mentioning would be better in the era they played in rather than today's game. Like Jahil Okafor would be better in 1996 where as Patrick Ewing's defense would get worse having to switch onto guards all game long and having teams draw him away from the paint.

Rebounding as I pointed out hasn't got worse. Despite the insane 3 point attempts that lead to long offensive rebounds the league gives up less of them. There just aren't rebounding specialists anymore. It's more team oriented. Just like defense. In 2019 good team defense with all the spacing/ball movement/spam plays etc. is more valuable than having 1 guy who can lock players up 1 vs 1. It's not 2005. Not a ton of teams let a guy just ISO non stop.


How does it make it easier? When the only stars play 25 feet from the basket that

[FKAri]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Of course the league is geared toward the perimeter which is why it

[NuggetsFan]

How does it make it easier? When the only stars play 25 feet from the basket that’s what people learn to do. Tall people are no less capable than they were 30 or 40 years ago. But tall people don’t want to be centers. Look at Manutes son. Do you ever see his workouts? He’s 7 foot two out there working on his sham God and pulling up from three.

And it’s fine. Other than if they can move their feet on defense one of the first things teams want to know is can you shoot. Even for bigs.

Teams have a lack of resources from which to select and utilize traditional big men which is why the few who can do it stand out. Nobody today knows how to defend man to man in the post. There aren’t huge numbers of great rebounders like they used to be. A tall kid isn’t spending his afternoon intentionally missing shots to see how the ball comes off the basket like Moses Malone and Dennis Rodman. A tall kid is spending his afternoon taking threes.

Bigs today have just as much talent...nowhere near the position specific coaching to become big men....because being a big man is almost a stain. A tall kid who Hass to play center is just a forward who isn’t skilled enough in the ass of mini and that’s why the toll kids who appreciate the old ways stand out.

Most of them just wouldn’t back when all tall kids wanted to be bigs.

Magic Johnson was unusual.

He’s what everyone wants to be at 6’9” now.

Nobody knows how to defend man to man in the post? Your just being hyperbolic. Back in the day non HOF/All-Star big men would get roasted inside. You honestly think NBA coaches don't teach that stuff? C's today don't struggle with man to man post defense. They struggle with ticky tack fouls inside, and switching. Jokic/Plumlee can D up inside most nights. Maybe not when it's a case of better offense beating better defense. The issue they have, like all C's do, is teams targeting them and running certain plays over an over again that make them have to switch. I've watched Malone try to scheme around it and it's just not possible right now.

Some of what your saying is true but your exaggerating alot of it. Rebounding is rebounding. It's still preached and taught. They grabbed more offensive rebounds in the 90's, teams get back in transition D nowadays, and defensive rebounding is prioritized. Get the ball and go. Which is why last year the average amount of offensive rebounds was like 10 vs 12-14 in the 90's. It's just team oriented.

Kenneth Faried can't switch on defense, or shoot. He's an absolute BEAST on the boards. Undersized but very athletic, non stop motor, and just goes after it. He can't get on the court because in 2019 the responsibility is more spread out. It's positionless basketball. Versatility. Spacing. So he loses his spot because rebounding specialists just aren't as valuable today. Teams aren't "bad" at rebounding.

[Kblaze8855]

I’ll get around to responding to that but right now I’m just laughing at how the speech to text butchered some of my last post. I suppose I shouldn’t be trying to post while driving and eating Popeyes.

[NugzFan]

I don't consider making an all-star team over someone more deserving an achievement. Gobert should have made it last year and two years before that

Haha what? :oldlol:

So almost making it is more impressive than almost?

I don

[NugzFan]

Gobert sat because Favors was going good. He has no problem switching.

How many teams won 50 with no all-stars other than the Jazz?

Gobert is the best defender. In a select class of guys that won DPOTY 2 years in a row. The best finisher in the game. You do know that the dunk is still the most efficient shot in the game and Rudy set a new record for dunks? You do know he's the best at setting screens in the whole league? That is the Jazz offense just as running the offense through Jokic is Denver's. He's better at running the floor. He's more athletic. He won the head to head matchup clearly too.

Denver had a better team around Jokic. Gobert has taken a lottery team places.

Jokic took a lottery team places as well. Not sure I follow that logic

[Xiao Yao You]

[QUOTE=NugzFan]Haha what? :oldlol:

So almost making it is more impressive than almost?

I don

[Xiao Yao You]

Jokic took a lottery team places as well. Not sure I follow that logic

How many players teams are lottery teams without them? Not many. He's one of the best rather anyone thinks so or not. Jazz have been a horrible team without him. That may have changed now or will in the future. We'll see...

[ImKobe]

Luis Scola:

28 pts
13 rebs
2 asist
3/4 3PT

Rudy "DPOY" Gobert:

3 pts
11 rebs
1/3 FG
1/4 FT.




:lol

Idiots over-reacted after one game against a team playing small :lol

How does the best Center in the league get destroyed by a 39 y.o Scola? :facepalm

[Xiao Yao You]

Idiots over-reacted after one game against a team playing small :lol

How does the best Center in the league get destroyed by a 39 y.o Scola? :facepalm

ISH is all about overreacting

[90sgoat]

Man I regret this thread.

I always try to fit in by posting posting positive stuff but it always backfires.

I'll stick to being a misantrope.

[bobopenguin]

well.. we have Gobert, Jokic & Embiid.. but funny enough, none of them is #1 when a PF Anthony Davis decided to play a part time center role.

[Xiao Yao You]

well.. we have Gobert, Jokic & Embiid.. but funny enough, none of them is #1 when a PF Anthony Davis decided to play a part time center role.

Davis has yet to show he can carry a team. It's only the past couple years ago where he'd even go anywhere near Gobert when they play.

[Kblaze8855]

How many players teams are lottery teams without them? Not many. He's one of the best rather anyone thinks so or not. Jazz have been a horrible team without him. That may have changed now or will in the future. We'll see...


You think he

[NugzFan]

Gobert has deserved it twice. He wasn't all NBA for no reason. His less valuable teammate made it over him one of the times

if you dont make it, then you arent deserving of an all star spot. there are 12 spots. being 13th doesnt count.

[NugzFan]

How many players teams are lottery teams without them? Not many. He's one of the best rather anyone thinks so or not. Jazz have been a horrible team without him. That may have changed now or will in the future. We'll see...

are you saying the nuggets make the playoffs with jokic?

the fact that you have to come up with such random points to defend your argument doesnt bode too well.

[Xiao Yao You]

if you dont make it, then you arent deserving of an all star spot. there are 12 spots. being 13th doesnt count.

yeah they always pick the 12 that are most deserving, Probably never have

[Xiao Yao You]

are you saying the nuggets make the playoffs with jokic?

the fact that you have to come up with such random points to defend your argument doesnt bode too well.

I don't think I said anything about Jokic or the Nuggets. The Jazz have sucked without Gobert. With him they have been in the middle of the playoffs in the west. He's one of the best players in the league

[NugzFan]

I don't think I said anything about Jokic or the Nuggets. The Jazz have sucked without Gobert. With him they have been in the middle of the playoffs in the west. He's one of the best players in the league


your argument of gobert over jokic is that gobert is taking a lottery team to the playoffs. does that not imply that jokic isnt doing the same in denver?

your logic in this thread has been inconsistent and weak at best.

[NugzFan]

yeah they always pick the 12 that are most deserving, Probably never have

those who make the team are the deserving ones. 12 people deserve spots. thats it.

[AirTupac]

Delusional fanboys arguing over here. Hilarious.

[Xiao Yao You]

your argument of gobert over jokic is that gobert is taking a lottery team to the playoffs. does that not imply that jokic isnt doing the same in denver?

your logic in this thread has been inconsistent and weak at best.

I never said Gobert over Jokic.

I've consistently said Gobert is one of the best players in the game

[Xiao Yao You]

those who make the team are the deserving ones. 12 people deserve spots. thats it.

Making it doesn't mean you deserve it. How weak is that

[NugzFan]

Making it doesn't mean you deserve it. How weak is that

If making the team isn

[Kblaze8855]

As always the nba coaches pick the majority of the team. They must not be as impressed as you are. I

[warriorfan]

[QUOTE=NugzFan]If making the team isn

[Xiao Yao You]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]As always the nba coaches pick the majority of the team. They must not be as impressed as you are. I

[Xiao Yao You]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Gobert is an All Star level center who has had some snubs. It

[NugzFan]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Gobert is an All Star level center who has had some snubs. It

[insidehoops]

How would you describe Gobert's go-to move on offense

[Xiao Yao You]

How would you describe Gobert's go-to move on offense

the lob. Best vertical spacer in the game

His mid range shot and hook could be weapons at some point. Just needs the opportunity and the confidence

[Smoke117]

lol no. Jokic is clearly the best center in the league with Embiid 2nd. Gobert is 3rd, though.