2020 Big 2's vs. 1990's Big 2's - does Lebron's 2020 comp really rank this low? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

09-12-2019, 10:50 PM

This shit is retarded. You can't use an entire decade and compare it to a single season. You have Magic/Worthy & Shaq/Penny when Magic retired before either of those two were drafted :oldlol:
It doesn't matter - the twosomes that used to take years to develop into superstar "Big 2's" now takes a single off-season.. so it's all the same - we're seeing 4-5 years of Big 2's in 1 year due to the "empowerment"/collusion era, which speeds everything up... Lebron got him a Pippen on super-steroids in 1 off-season, whereas MJ had to wait years and years

But if you want to take just 1 year, you could look at 1991 - Magic/Worthy or the in-prime HOF trio of Isiah/Dumars/Rodman tops anything Lebron will face this year

Or 1996 when he beat Shaq/Penny and Kemp/Payton... :confusedshrug:

sdot_thadon

09-12-2019, 10:52 PM

https://i.postimg.cc/dVm1bhbf/giphy-1.gif (https://postimages.org/)
:biggums:

Smoke117

09-12-2019, 10:54 PM

Another Lebron thread from the spam junky.

Get another hobby. Sorry ass motherfukker :oldlol:

https://media.giphy.com/media/mrDtajGWOUTJu/giphy.gif

3ball

09-12-2019, 10:56 PM

This shit is retarded. You can't use an entire decade and compare it to a single season. You have Magic/Worthy & Shaq/Penny listed when Magic retired before either of them were drafted :oldlol:
Even if you want to take just 1 year, you could look at 1991 - Magic/Worthy or the in-prime HOF trio of Isiah/Dumars/Rodman tops anything Lebron will face this year

Or 1996 when he beat Shaq/Penny and Kemp/Payton... :confusedshrug:

So MJ would easily win 6 again in Kawhi's spot with Pippen, I mean PG13

Smoke117

09-12-2019, 10:57 PM

3ball

09-12-2019, 11:04 PM

Also, why are Jordan and Pippen not on this list? Oh wait, I forgot, Pippen was a scrub. :lol 92 Jordan and Pippen should be 1. I also find it amusing how the thread title is
all about Big 2's and the one at as 1 is three players. 3ball is an absolute muppet. :oldlol:

We're comparing Jordan's 2-star comp to Lebron's, so we exclude MJ/Pip and Lebron/AD.. And a couple big 3's were included on the list because MJ beat them with Big 2's

So ultimately, Magic/Worthy or the in-prime HOF trio of Isiah/Dumars/Rodman tops anything Lebron/AD will face this year.. Or 1996 when MJ beat Shaq/Penny and Kemp/Payton.. Or any year tbh .. :confusedshrug:

SouBeachTalents

09-12-2019, 11:05 PM

Smoke117

09-12-2019, 11:23 PM

We're comparing Jordan's 2-star comp to Lebron's, so we exclude MJ/Pip and Lebron/AD.. And a couple big 3's were included on the list because MJ beat them with Big 2's

So ultimately, Magic/Worthy or the in-prime HOF trio of Isiah/Dumars/Rodman tops anything Lebron/AD will face this year.. Or 1996 when MJ beat Shaq/Penny and Kemp/Payton.. Or any year tbh .. :confusedshrug:

lol, that's not saying a whole lot when Jordan and Pippen were the two best players in that 91 Pistons series by a big margin. They both basically did whatever they wanted. Jordan had a 26.2 game score and Pippen a 20.2. The highest player on the Pistons was Vinnie Johnson with a 17.2. Nobody else even had above a 10 besides Thomas with an 11.2. On that note, Horace Grant was 4th overall with a 13.2. Calling Dumars, Thomas, and Rodman a big three in 91 is hilarious and putting them at 1 to put, of course, Jordan on a pedestal is a complete fukking joke.

3ball

09-12-2019, 11:33 PM

lol, that's not saying a whole lot when Jordan and Pippen were the two best players in that 91 Pistons series. They both basically did whatever they wanted. Jordan had a 26.2 game score and Pippen a 20.2. The highest player on the Pistons was Vinnie Johnson with a 17.2. Nobody else even had above 10 besides Thomas with an 11.2.
You could do that for the losing side of every series that's ever been played

You're just looking at the end result and saying "mj's team won so he had the better team and players"

Remember when Kyrie destroyed curry in 16' Finals?... Yet you say lebron pulled an upset

The Pistons had 3 in-prime HOF's and the Bulls only 2 (and pip wasn't in his prime yet)... Plus the Pistons had 2 more 3x all-stars and the bulls nothing... Heck, James Edwards and probably Salley too (pistons bench players) would've started at center for the bulls

Smoke117

09-12-2019, 11:39 PM

You could do that for the losing side of every series that's ever been played

You're just looking at the end result and saying "mj's team won so he had the better team and players"

The Pistons had 3 in-prime HOF's and the Bulls only 2... Plus the Pistons had 2 more 3x all-stars and the bulls nothing... Heck, James Edwards and probably Salley too (pistons bench players) would've started at center for the bulls

None of this changes the fact that Jordan and Pippen were, by far, the best players on the court in this 91 series. You don't just say hof players and act like everyone is on some equal level. The Bulls had the two best players, by far, in this series.

3ball

09-12-2019, 11:42 PM

None of this changes the fact that Jordan and Pippen were, by far, the best players on the court in this 91 series. You don't just say hof players and act like everyone is on some equal level. The Bulls had the two best players, by far, in this series.
Remember when Kyrie destroyed Curry in 16' Finals?... Yet you say lebron pulled an upset.. so ur selectively using your standard to judge (double-standard.. hypocrite)

So again, you could do that for the losing side of every series that's ever been played

You're just looking at the end result and saying "MJ's team won so he had the better team and players"

Again, the Pistons had 3 in-prime HOF's and the Bulls only 2 (and pip wasn't in his prime yet)... Plus the Pistons had 2 more 3x all-stars and the bulls nothing... Heck, James Edwards and probably Salley too (pistons bench players) would've started at center for the bulls

Smoke117

09-12-2019, 11:45 PM

Remember when Kyrie destroyed Curry in 16' Finals?... Yet you say lebron pulled an upset.. so ur selectively using your standard to judge (double-standard.. hypocrite)

So again, you could do that for the losing side of every series that's ever been played

You're just looking at the end result and saying "MJ's team won so he had the better team and players"

Again, the Pistons had 3 in-prime HOF's and the Bulls only 2 (and pip wasn't in his prime yet)... Plus the Pistons had 2 more 3x all-stars and the bulls nothing... Heck, James Edwards and probably Salley too (pistons bench players) would've started at center for the bulls

I have, literally, never said that at any point in the last 3 years, but okay. Unlike you, I don't obsess about LeBron. As I've said a million times, he bores me. I don't care about him.

Hey Yo

09-12-2019, 11:53 PM

Funny how when Rodman's on Detroit, he's part of the big 3 and is already a HOF'er.

Yet when he's on the Bulls, he's an offensive liability and MJ was playing 4 on 5.

3dumb at his finest.

3ball

09-12-2019, 11:57 PM

Funny how when Rodman's on Detroit, he's part of the big 3 and is already a HOF'er.

Yet when he's on the Bulls, he's an offensive liability and MJ was playing 4 on 5.

3dumb at his finest.
91' rodman was dpoy and all-star - his defense made up for his offense back then, but not always in 97' when he was 36 years old

36 years old rodman averaged 4/8 in the 97' playoffs and wasn't the starter in the 98' playoffs

Smoke117

09-13-2019, 12:06 AM

91' rodman was dpoy and all-star - his defense made up for his offense back then, but not always in 97' when he was 36 years old

36 years old rodman averaged 4/8 in the 97' playoffs and wasn't the starter in the 98' playoffs

Rodman should have NEVER been DPOY especially when you consider they were giving them to him in 1990 when Hakeem had his best defensive season ever and in 91 when David Robinson was a far superior overall defensive player by impact. (among a good dozen other centers during both seasons)

3ball

10-05-2019, 02:42 PM

Thread Cliffs:

Kawhi/George is Lebron's best comp this year, which is less than Malone/Stockton and Duncan/Robinson from 97-98, or Shaq/Penny from 95-96'... And possibly Payton/Kemp from 96'... And certainly Magic/Worthy or Isiah/Dumars/Rodman from 90-91

So MJ faced and defeated better comp than Lebron will face this year, and with less help (AD > Pip).. Since MJ beat tougher comp with less help, Lebron must win this year just to barely meet the goat standard that MJ set.. And even then it would be set up, not organic
.

Manny98

10-05-2019, 02:47 PM

we get it MJ is the GOAT happy now

Ainosterhaspie

10-05-2019, 03:42 PM

LeBron is 35 this season. Jordan didn't even play his age 35 season. Why is this comparison even being made?

(Using BBall reference ages.)

SouBeachTalents

10-05-2019, 03:44 PM

LeBron is 35 this season. Jordan didn't even play his age 35 season. Why is this comparison even being made?

(Using BBall reference ages.)
Jordan was 35 for the '98 playoffs

3ball

10-05-2019, 03:51 PM

LeBron is 35 this season. Jordan didn't even play his age 35 season. Why is this comparison even being made?

(Using BBall reference ages.)
Jordan's birthday is in February, so he turned 35 about halfway through the 1998 season

Therefore, 35-year MJ won the MVP, FMVP, title, scoring title and 1st team defense over all-stars Shaq, Duncan, Grant Hill, Hakeem, Robinson, Kobe, Garnett, Kidd, Drexler, Penny and more

No one comes anywhere near that at any age, let alone at 35... 35-year MJ was goat:

1) 2nd smartest player ever
2) best clutch ever
3) goat jumpshot, aka most makes in recorded history (250 more than curry or lebron's highest volume season) at better efficiency than Lebron's career best
4) still elite athlete, aka top 10% in dunks

Ainosterhaspie

10-05-2019, 04:03 PM

Jordan's last meaningful game occurred when he was younger than LeBron will be at the end of this season. All you're doing by comparing old LeBron to peak Jordan is elevating LeBron.

3ball

10-05-2019, 04:30 PM

Jordan's last meaningful game occurred when he was younger than LeBron will be at the end of this season. All you're doing by comparing old LeBron to peak Jordan is elevating LeBron.
MJ was 35 years old in 1998 when he won the scoring title, MVP, FMVP, and title over Malone/Stockton and Duncan/Robinson, who are better Big 2's then Lebron's best comp this year (kawhi/george)

And this thread sheds light on everything - i.e. MJ won 6 rings in the spot Kawhi has right now - a 2-star league with Pippen as sidekick, aka Paul George

AussieSteve

10-05-2019, 06:07 PM

Are the bolded appropriate ranks for Lebron's comp in 2020?.. :biggums:

1) Isiah/Dumars/Rodman (3 HOF in prime)
2) Magic/Worthy
3) Barkley/KJ
4) Malone/Stockton
5) Shaq/Penny
6) Kawhi/PG13
7) Harden/Westbrook
8) Drexler/Porter
9) Payton/Kemp
10) Lillard/McCollum
11) Daughtery/Price/Nance/Harper
12) Alonzo/Tim Hardaway
13) Jokic/Murray
14) Ewing/Mason (Mason all-nba and all-defense in 97'.. 16/11/6)

(we're only looking at 2-star vs. 2-star teams, so Lebron's prior Big 3's vs Big 3 matchups and format are irrelevant to the current 2-star format going forward)
.

You forgot the Pippen / Horace Grant big 2. Who had that epic clash with the Knicks big 2 of Ewing / Mason in 94.

But Grant was 'just a play finisher', so Pippen was a lone star vs a big 2.

And of course, the Knicks had two other guys who were both All Stars and All D, and Mason was their 4th leading scorer... so it was Pip vs a big 4?

AussieSteve

10-05-2019, 06:14 PM

Kawhi a and PG are better than any big 2 MJ ever faced.

PG top 3 MVP last year. Kawhi is a top 3 player in the league.

SouBeachTalents

10-05-2019, 06:19 PM

Kawhi a and PG are better than any big 2 MJ ever faced.

PG top 3 MVP last year. Kawhi is a top 3 player in the league.
The only arguable one is Shaq/Penny

3ball

10-05-2019, 06:41 PM

Kawhi a and PG are better than any big 2 MJ ever faced.

PG top 3 MVP last year. Kawhi is a top 3 player in the league.
Worthy averaged 31 on 60% in the 87' WCF and won the 88' FMVP - he was #1 option for 2 straight playoffs over a couple top 5 all-time guys (magic/kareem)

So Worthy > George, who is currently hurt and never let a team to the Finals or rings like Worthy... Worthy was simply buried on a stacked team.. and obviously magic > kawhi

So Magic/Worthy were better... and Shaq/Penny...

And the reality is that Drexler is ringless because of Jordan, but his stats are better than Kawhi's and actually match Lebron's in some years, so how do we know kawhi > Drexler?... We infact don't know because Jordan stopped drexler... ultimately, Jordan gets underrated for preventing a kawhi-level player or 07/11' lebron-level player from getting a ring

sdot_thadon

10-05-2019, 06:44 PM

Doesn't really matter if the bulls faced big 2s, big 3s, or big 8s. They very rarely faced a team with more than what they had.

SouBeachTalents

10-05-2019, 06:47 PM

Worthy averaged 31 on 60% in the 87' WCF and won the 88' FMVP - he was #1 option for 2 straight playoffs over a couple top 5 all-time guys (magic/kareem)

So Worthy > George, who is currently hurt and never let a team to the Finals or rings like Worthy... Worthy was simply buried on a stacked team.. and obviously magic > kawhi

So Magic/Worthy were better... and Shaq/Penny...

And the reality is that Drexler is ringless because of Jordan, but his stats are better than Kawhi's and actually match Lebron's in some years, so how do we know kawhi > Drexler?... We don't know because Jordan stopped drexler... Jordan simply gets underrated for preventing a kawhi-level player or 07/11' lebron-level player from getting a ring
Current PG is quite easily better than the '91 version of Worthy. What he did 3-4 years before he played Jordan is irrelevant to the discussion.

And even if you want to say Drexler > Kawhi, which I think most people would disagree with, current PG is significantly better than Porter

Turbo Slayer

10-05-2019, 06:48 PM

:bowdown:
Current PG is quite easily better than the '91 version of Worthy. What he did 3-4 years before he played Jordan is irrelevant to the discussion.

And even if you want to say Drexler > Kawhi, which I think most people would disagree with, current PG is significantly better than Porter

Turbo Slayer

10-05-2019, 06:50 PM

3ball

10-05-2019, 07:11 PM

Current PG is quite easily better than the '91 version of Worthy. What he did 3-4 years before he played Jordan is irrelevant to the discussion.

And even if you want to say Drexler > Kawhi, which I think most people would disagree with, current PG is significantly better than Porter
Worthy was buried on a stacked team and his only all-nba selections were in 1990 and 1991

So he was viewed as better in 90-91 than prior years, and was simply injured in the 1991 Finals (still led Lakers with 19 on 48%, all on pippen - that's better than george, who is also currently hurt)

So again, worthy > george and magic > kawhi

And again, Drexler stats against the 2 best perimeter defenders ever compare well to kawhi's stats vs the Warriors.. And drexler's stats are better overall and infact match Lebron's - we don't really know how good drexler was because MJ stopped him

Bottom line - MJ had a weaker sidekick then AD, but beat better Big 2's then Lebron will face this year... You already agreed that Shaq/Penny are better, and I think it's clear that several other Big 2's also compare, as the OP specifies... Even 35-year MJ outlasted comparable Big 2's in Malone/Stockton and Duncan/Robinson... Btw, Hakeem/Drexler were still good and around in 1996 when the Bulls won

SouBeachTalents

10-05-2019, 07:17 PM

Worthy was buried on a stacked team and his only all-nba selections were in 1990 and 1991

So he was viewed as better in 90-91 than prior years, and was simply injured in the 1991 Finals (still led Lakers with 19 on 48%, all on pippen - that's better than george, who is also currently hurt)

So again, worthy > george and magic > kawhi

And again, Drexler had similar stats against the 2 best perimeter defenders ever, to kawhi's stats vs the Warriors.. And drexler's stats are better overall and infact match Lebron's - we don't really know how good drexler was because MJ stopped him

Bottom line - MJ had a weaker sidekick then AD, but beat better Big 2's then Lebron will face this year... You already agreed that Shaq/Penny are better, and I think it's clear that several other Big 2's also compare, as the OP specifies... Even 35-year MJ outlasted comparable Big 2's in Malone/Stockton and Duncan/Robinson... Btw, Hakeem/Drexler were still good and around in 1996 when the Bulls won
Worthy only making All-NBA in 90/91 probably has to do with the fact the league didn't add an All-NBA 3rd team until the '89 season. PG last year was All-NBA First Team, All-Defensive First Team, 3rd in MVP voting and put up significantly better production. There's absolutely no logical argument for '91 Worthy being better than current PG.

You keep bringing up Drexler, an argument I think you'd lose outright just comparing him to Kawhi, but you once again fail to mention Porter, who absolutely nobody is going to say is better than PG

And Jordan never faced Duncan/Robinson or Hakeem/Drexler in a series, so that shit is completely irrelevant :lol

Turbo Slayer

10-05-2019, 07:20 PM

3ball

10-05-2019, 07:38 PM

Worthy only making All-NBA in 90/91 probably has to do with the fact the league didn't add an All-NBA 3rd team until the '89 season. PG last year was All-NBA First Team, All-Defensive First Team, 3rd in MVP voting and put up significantly better production. There's absolutely no logical argument for '91 Worthy being better than current PG.

PG wins the regular season because Worthy was on stacked squads and never got the shine, accolades or ball-time that PG enjoys

But wake me up when PG leads the Clippers to the Finals with 31 on 60% like Worthy in the 87' WCF... Or wins FMVP over Kawhi like Worthy did Magic in 88'... So Worthy wins the playoffs... Worthy got the nickname "big game james" for being the #1 option and clutch player over Magic and Kareem in the 87' and 88' playoffs...

Now if Worthy was coattailing rings with shit stats and zero clutch like Pippen, then it would be a different story... :cheers:

You keep bringing up Drexler, an argument I think you'd lose outright just comparing him to Kawhi, but you once again fail to mention Porter, who absolutely nobody is going to say is better than PG

It's impossible to lose drexler vs kawhi because: when did kawhi average 25 and 6 apg against defenders like MJ/Pippen in 1992, or Rodman and the bad boys in 1990?... I'll wait

Kawhi barely averaged 28 on 43% against Klay in the 19' Finals... Otoh, drexler was getting 25-26 on MJ/Pippen/Rodman, so what would he do to Klay?... :cheers: .. :oldlol:

And Jordan never faced Duncan/Robinson or Hakeem/Drexler in a series, so that shit is completely irrelevant :lol

Lebron hasn't played Kawhi/George yet and we don't know if they will meet in the playoffs

So Hakeem/Drexler and Duncan/Robinson are relevant because they're part of the competition that MJ outlasted and won all the awards over.. And they compare well to kawhi/george obviously

Turbo Slayer

10-05-2019, 07:45 PM

PG wins the regular season because Worthy was on stacked squads and never got the shine, accolades or ball-time that PG enjoys

But wake me up when PG leads the Clippers to the Finals with 31 on 60% like Worthy in the 87' WCF... Or wins FMVP over Kawhi like Worthy did Magic in 88'... So Worthy wins the playoffs... Worthy got the nickname "big game james" for being the #1 option and clutch player over Magic and Kareem in the 87' and 88' playoffs...

Now if Worthy was coattailing rings with shit stats and zero clutch like Pippen, then it would be a different story... :cheers:

It's impossible to lose drexler vs kawhi because: when did kawhi average 25 and 6 apg against defenders like MJ/Pippen in 1992, or Rodman and the bad boys in 1990?... I'll wait

Kawhi barely averaged 28 on 43% against Klay in the 19' Finals... Otoh, drexler was getting 25-26 on MJ/Pippen/Rodman, so what would he do to Klay?... :cheers: .. :oldlol:

Lebron hasn't played Kawhi/George yet and we don't know if they will meet in the playoffs

So Hakeem/Drexler and Duncan/Robinson are relevant because they're part of the competition that MJ outlasted and won all the awards over.. And they compare well to kawhi/george obviously

Prediction: Once LeGOAT takes the throne back in his hands, 3ball and the rest of the deluded posters will cry about it and call it stacked or make bs excuses about injuries in June 2020. I'm calling it right now.

Logging off. See you ISH. Finna do my homework. I have essay due Thursday. :rant

3ball

10-05-2019, 07:56 PM

Prediction: Once LeGOAT takes the throne back in his hands, 3ball and the rest of the deluded posters will cry about it and call it stacked or make bs excuses about injuries in June 2020. I'm calling it right now.

Logging off. See you ISH. Finna do my homework. I have essay due Thursday. :rant
You stan a 3/9 guy and you're saying mj fans are deluded... :oldlol: ..

And lebron teamed up with arguably the best player in the league and is facing weaker Big 2's than MJ defeated - so of course Lebron gets zero respect if he wins this year.. imagine if 35-year mj teamed up with Duncan or Robinson .. :facepalm ... So shameful, yet bron fans don't care... :kobe:

RRR3

10-05-2019, 07:59 PM

No one was calling AD the best player in the year last year.

Liarball at it again.

3ball

10-05-2019, 08:10 PM

No one was calling AD the best player in the year last year.

Liarball at it again.

They are now.. I've heard it many times

He's easily the best sidekick of all the Big 2's - at worst he's a top 2-3 player, so it's no different then teaming up with Magic or Bird..

No one was calling AD the best player in the year last year.

Lebron did this before - Wade was the #2 player behind Lebron in 2010:

WADE 2010:. 27/5/7.. 28.0 PER.. 0.224 ws.. 9.4 bpm.. 8.0 vorp
KOBE' 2010:. 27/5/5.. 21.9 PER.. 0.160 ws.. 3.6 bpm.. 4.0 vorp

But how could the "goat" team up with the next best player in the league and then lose in 2011, and be the underdog in 2012?.. How could they lose or be an underdog 3 of 4 years including a record defeat and goat choke?

Wait.. they had a top 4 PF and the 2nd goat shooter too?... 4 HOF's? yet only 2/4?.... :facepalm .. that's goat?... :yaohappy:

Manny98

10-05-2019, 08:12 PM

You stan a 3/9 guy and you're saying mj fans are deluded... :oldlol: ..

And lebron teamed up with arguably the best player in the league and is facing weaker Big 2's than MJ defeated - so of course Lebron gets zero respect if he wins this year.. imagine if 35-year mj teamed up with Duncan or Robinson .. :facepalm ... So shameful, yet bron fans don't care... :kobe:
Wait when did MJ ever face a duo as talented as Kawhi and PG

Or Curry and Klay
Or KD and Westbrook
Or Duncan and Parker
Or Curry and KD
Or KG and Pierce

Never the best duo MJ face was Malone and Stockton who are not.on the same level as the duo's above

3ball

10-05-2019, 08:19 PM

Wait when did MJ ever face a duo as talented as Kawhi and PG

Or Curry and Klay
Or KD and Westbrook
Or Duncan and Parker
Or Curry and KD
Or KG and Pierce

Never the best duo MJ face was Malone and Stockton who are not.on the same level as the duo's above
Bird/McHale
Magic/Worthy
Isiah/Dumars/Rodman
Price/Daughtery/Nance/Harper (4-star team, #1 SRS and MJ beat them with nothing)
Shaq/Penny
Stockton/Malone
Barkley/KJ
Kemp/Payton
Alonzo/Tim Hardaway

Bottom line - MJ won 6 rings in the same 2-star environment that Lebron faces now

And1AllDay

10-06-2019, 02:32 AM

Another Lebron thread from the spam junky.

Get another hobby. Sorry ass motherfukker :oldlol:

https://i.postimg.cc/XvyvqCdn/pumped_kid.gif

3ball

10-06-2019, 03:36 AM

Kobe shot 35% while averaging 15 and 22 against Reggie Miller and Tayshaun Prince in the 00' and 04' Finals..

Meanwhile, Drexler averaged 26 and 6 apg on 41% against Rodman/MJ/Pip in the 90' and 92' Finals - those are the 3 best perimeter defenders ever

So Drexler did much better against better comp and defense

But his 26 ppg against the 3 best perimeter defenders ever wasn't just better than Kobe - it was better than Lebron, who only averaged 17 against the Mavs and 22 against the Spurs in 07'.. and Dirk only averaged 23 on 43% in the 11' Finals... Kawhi averaged 28 on 43% against klay in 2019...

So Drexler's superior performance against better comp proves that he was on that top level with Kobe, Kawhi, Dirk, and other great wings.. We already saw how Drexler's peak stats are better than 07' and 11' Lebron's (peak Drexler was 27/7/7)

Essentially, Drexler is incredibly underrated, mainly because MJ stopped him from winning rings and MVP's... Without MJ, Drexler wins the 92' MVP and ring, which would put him over someone like Dirk very easily... I still view him as easily better than Dirk though, because I properly account for him running into MJ (and Dirk only winning because of the goat choke)
.

And1AllDay

10-06-2019, 03:41 AM

3ball

10-06-2019, 04:00 AM

Worthy only making All-NBA in 90/91 probably has to do with the fact the league didn't add an All-NBA 3rd team until the '89 season. PG last year was All-NBA First Team, All-Defensive First Team, 3rd in MVP voting and put up significantly better production. There's absolutely no logical argument for '91 Worthy being better than current PG.

Worthy doesn't have the regular season accolades because he was on a stacked team, but he still destroys PG in the playoffs both statistically and with accolades... :confusedshrug:

When did PG lead a team to the Finals with 31 on 60% like Worthy in the 87' WCF??... Or win FMVP over his more-heralded teammate like Worthy over Magic in 88'?.. Worthy got the nickname "big game james" for being the #1 option and clutch player over Magic and Kareem in the 87' and 88' playoffs... George isn't on this level

Now if Worthy was coattailing rings with shit stats and zero clutch like Pippen, then it would be a different story... but Worthy is one of the best playoff performers ever and is therefore better than george

You keep bringing up Drexler, an argument I think you'd lose outright just comparing him to Kawhi, but you once again fail to mention Porter, who absolutely nobody is going to say is better than PG

It's impossible to lose drexler vs kawhi because:

Kawhi got 28 and 4 apg against Klay... But Drexler averaged 26 and 6 apg against Rodman/Pippen/Jordan - the 3 best perimeter defenders ever - so he would get more than 28 vs Klay

And Jordan never faced Duncan/Robinson or Hakeem/Drexler in a series, so that shit is completely irrelevant

Lebron hasn't played Kawhi/George yet and we don't know if they will meet in the playoffs

So Hakeem/Drexler and Duncan/Robinson are relevant because they're part of the competition that MJ outlasted and won all the awards over.. And they compare well to kawhi/george obviously

Ultimately, Jordan beat better Big 2's than kawhi/george (i.e. shaq/penny) with a worse sidekick (pip is nowhere near AD).. even at 35 years old, MJ beat Malone/Stockton (who beat Duncan/Robinson).. So MJ faced better comp with worse help

StrongLurk

10-06-2019, 09:40 AM

Wow OP is melting down hard with this Drexler stuff. Yikes.

3ball

10-06-2019, 01:19 PM

Wow OP is melting down hard with this Drexler stuff. Yikes.
Just pointing out some widely-overlooked facts:

Drexler played better against the top 3 defenders of all time (Rodman/Pippen/MJ in the 90/92' Finals) than Kobe and Lebron did against much weaker defenders/defenses.... and Drexler's peak stats 27/7/7 are > Kobe's career averages and = Lebron's (and Drexler's 92' run destroys Lebron's 07/11 playoff and Finals stats, despite facing better comp)

Essentially, peak Drexler is on the same level as all the great wings (Kobe, Wade, Lebron, etc) but was simply stopped from winning the MVP and title because of MJ - i.e. if MJ was playing in 08', he stops Kobe from winning MVP just like he stopped Drexler in 1992

So Drexler is severely underrated - he isn't viewed as being on Wade or Kobe's level, but he was often better than both
.

RRR3

10-06-2019, 01:27 PM

Drexler is better than LeBron and Kobe now :oldlol:

3ball :facepalm

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

10-06-2019, 01:36 PM

OP right now

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-16-2015/WxzVMK.gif

3ball

10-06-2019, 01:48 PM

Drexler is better than LeBron and Kobe now :oldlol:

3ball :facepalm
Kobe is better overall, but peak Drexler (27/7/7) is better than many Kobe seasons and his 25/5/5 career averages

Drexler also played better in the 90 and 92 Finals vs Rodman/Pippen/MJ than Kobe did in nearly all his Finals against much weaker defense

So peak Drexler was absolutely better than average Kobe, and should be considered in the same breath as Wade, Kobe and Harden - these guys would've had their 1 MVP taken away by MJ just like Clyde did, and their titles

RRR3

10-06-2019, 02:44 PM

Kobe is better overall, but peak Drexler (27/7/7) is better than many Kobe seasons and his 25/5/5 career averages

Drexler also played better in the 90 and 92 Finals vs Rodman/Pippen/MJ than Kobe did in nearly all his Finals against much weaker defense

So peak Drexler was absolutely better than average Kobe, and should be considered in the same breath as Wade, Kobe and Harden - these guys would've had their 1 MVP taken away by MJ just like Clyde did, and their titles
LeBron is better too you dumbass. Are you really incapable of admitting LeBron is better than Clyde Drexler? :biggums:

AirBonner

10-06-2019, 02:44 PM

Drexler is better than LeBron and Kobe now :oldlol:

3ball :facepalm
He also said Pippen was a slightly better Jeff Green

madmax

10-06-2019, 04:06 PM

He also said Pippen was a slightly better Jeff Green

:lol

Rico2016

10-06-2019, 04:32 PM

He also said Pippen was a slightly better Jeff Green

3ball meltdown sheesh

Turbo Slayer

10-06-2019, 04:43 PM

Another Lebron thread from the spam junky.

Get another hobby. Sorry ass motherfukker :oldlol:

:eek:

3ball

10-06-2019, 04:58 PM

LeBron is better too you dumbass.

Are you really incapable of admitting LeBron is better than Clyde Drexler? :biggums:

I will, but first:

Drexler vs dpoy Rodman in 90' Finals..... 26.4.... 7.8.. 6.2.. on 54.3 fg
Lebron vs 2nd yr Kawhi in..'13' Finals..... 25.3.. 10.9.. 7.0.. on 44.7 fg

Lebron wasn't better in the 13' Finals than 90' Drexler - Drexler matched him, and against better comp.. :confusedshrug:.. And there's plenty more:

Drexler vs 92' MJ/Pippen.... 25/8/5 on 40.7 fg
Lebron vs..07' Spurs............ 22/7/6 on 35.6 fg
Lebron vs..11' Mavs'............ 18/7/6 on 47.8 fg

Lebron was much worse in the 07' and 11' Finals than 92' Drexler - 92' Drexler played better against better comp... :confusedshrug:.

Summary:

1) Peak Drexler = Lebron career averages

2) Drexler vs Rodman/Pippen/MJ in Finals > Lebron's 07', 11' and 13' Finals vs weaker defenders

3) 92' Drexler's playoff and Finals stats > Lebron 07' and 11' stats and equal his 13' stats

So ultimately, Lebron was mostly better, but Drexler was better sometimes - i.e. 92' MJ infact beat a better version of 07 and 11 Lebron, since Drexler had better performance in his 1992 run vs better defenders than Lebron's 07' and 11' runs

So Drexler should be on the same tier as guys like Wade and Harden, who similar to Drexler, are a little worse than Lebron generally, but are equal or better at their peak then some versions of lebron

RRR3

10-06-2019, 05:07 PM

Turbo Slayer

10-06-2019, 05:33 PM

3ball... I wanna ask you a genuine question. I'm serious. My mom cooked a meal. Delicious as hell.

Prove to me that you're not a robot.

We are all losers on this board. I admit it. I'm actually deaf. I have a hearing disability.

How's your life going?

3ball

10-06-2019, 05:34 PM

.
Drexler 1992 Finals:. 24.8.. 7.8.. 5.3.. 52.2 ts.. 3.0 tov.. 113 ortg.. 18.4 gmsc
Lebron' 2011 Finals:. 17.8.. 7.2.. 6.8.. 54.1 ts.. 4.0 tov.. 102 ortg.. 13.7 gmsc
Lebron' 2007 Finals:. 22.0.. 7.0.. 6.8.. 42.8 ts.. 5.8 tov.... 83 ortg.. 10.6 gmsc

^^^ 92' Drexler was WAY better against the 2 best perimeter defenders ever (MJ/Pip) than Lebron was against Mavs and Spurs..

Drexler vs dpoy Rodman in 90' Finals..... 26.4.... 7.8.. 6.2.. on 54.3 fg
Lebron vs 2nd yr Kawhi in..'13' Finals..... 25.3.. 10.9.. 7.0.. on 44.7 fg

^^^ 90' Drexler faced the goat defense but still matched 13' Lebron

3ball

10-06-2019, 05:35 PM

Let’s use your favorite STAT, OBPM

Drexler regular season career high: 6.6

Drexler playoff career high: 6.2

LeBron has beaten Drexler’s career high in OBPM ELEVEN times.

LeBron has beaten Drexler’s playoff career high in OBPM NINE times.

OBPM

Drexler 92' Regular Season - 6.6
Lebron 07' Regular Season - 5.4
Lebron 11' Regular Season - 6.5

Drexler 92' Playoffs - 6.2
Lebron 07' Playoffs - 5.4
Lebron 11' Playoffs - 5.4

And notice the Finals stats in the previous post where 92' Drexler > 07' and 11' Lebron

So again, MJ beat a better version of 07' and 11' Lebron in 1992.... The whole reason that I brought this up is to show that Pippen is nowhere near 07/11 Lebron, and therefore nowhere near Drexler...

Drexler should be on the same tier as guys like Wade and Harden, who would've lost MVP and titles to Jordan just like Drexler did... Similar to Drexler, Wade and Harden are a little worse than Lebron generally, but are equal or better at their peak then some versions of lebron...

Otoh, Pippen is nowhere near this group.. his peak is slightly below Jimmy Butler, and he frequently played worse than prime Jeff Green

Turbo Slayer

10-06-2019, 05:36 PM

3ball

10-06-2019, 05:38 PM

3ball answer my question plz
It's looking up

Turbo Slayer

10-06-2019, 05:39 PM

It's looking up
:cheers: :rockon:

3ball

10-06-2019, 05:40 PM

:cheers: :rockon:
Now witness the last post (RRR3 destroyed)

Turbo Slayer

10-06-2019, 05:42 PM

It's looking up 3ball, convince me that Michael Jordan is the GOAT. You got one chance.

Can't believe this is happening to me. 3ball convincing me. :(

RRR3

10-06-2019, 06:02 PM

07 is before LeBron’s prime and in 11 his stats were affected by being co-lead options with Wade

3ball

10-06-2019, 06:59 PM

3ball, convince me that Michael Jordan is the GOAT. You got one chance.

Can't believe this is happening to me. 3ball convincing me. :(
Well you don't believe in rings in the modern era because MJ has the most and that means nothing to you

And you don't care about every player's signature accomplishment - winning as "the man" (similar to 11' Dirk, 06' Wade, 09' Kobe, 19' Kawhi, or 12' Lebron) - MJ has 6 rings like that, but that means nothing to you

So forget rings... and forget winning as "the man"... You don't care about that stuff... And forget stats like scoring or efficiency rating, because MJ is #1 at those and you don't care

And forget 2-way accolades like seasons with both all-nba and all-defense, or seasons with the scoring title and 1st team all-defense - MJ is #1 in these areas but you don't care

So what do you care about??... From my recollection, you care about winning as the "underdog" (1), and having weaker teams that play stronger teams (2) .... it's also important that the team collapses without the star player (3) and that the star is perceived as "carrying" Big 3's to the Finals (4)... I'll address these 4 points and show you why MJ has the edge in these areas as well (in addition to the winning and stats arguments that you don't care about)

1) Winning as underdog - We know that Lebron's 16' Finals was one of the best comeback wins ever - it would be the best if not for the Dray suspension

But the Cavs had a Big 3 just like the Warriors, and Lebron's 2nd option demolished their 1st option... so the Cavs' underdog status wasn't because of less talent - it was due to Lebron only winning 57 games in the regular season instead of flirting with 70 like Kawhi and Curry did

Ultimately, the only talent deficit that Lebron overcame was the 07' ECF, but MJ overcame bigger ones - only MJ beat a perennial 3-all-star team with zero all-stars; only MJ took a low seed deep in the playoffs; only MJ beat the #1 SRS team with the #10 SRS team (lebron's 07' Cavs were #7 SRS and beat the #6 SRS pistons)

2) Having a weak team that faces a stronger team - Lebron and Curry both had Big 3's, but only 1 had the best team of the era... Lebron gets props for facing good "comp", but the reality is that he ceded the best teams to other stars.. Even during his Miami run, the Spurs had the best team despite an older core and the "not 6, not 7" expectations of the Heat's Big 3

3) Team collapses without the star - Any team that has 1 big ball-dominator will lose without their ball-dominator (lebron-ball, harden-ball, westbrook-ball, nash-ball).. So it isn't just Lebron - if a team employs the ball-dominant, CP3-Lebron brand, the team will lose without that player.. that's just how that inferior brand works

Otoh, teams that don't have a ball-dominator (most champions) are playing good basketball and moving the ball with or without their top guy... Good basketball wins games regardless of talent and the best teams play good basketballand have talent that doesn't disrupt the good basketball

4) Making the Finals with Big 3's, but being perceived as carrying a weak cast - Lebron had the best 2nd option in the conference in 2018, and the best 2nd and 3rd options from 2011-2017 (super-teams).

So he only made it with a weak cast once (2007), when everyone else was doing it too (09' Dwight.. 02/03 Kidd.. 01' Iverson)..

Ultimately, guys like Dwight, AI, Lebron and Kidd proved that a good cast usually wasn't needed to win the conference from 2001-2009, yet Lebron failed in 09/10 and stacked the deck from 11-18' to ensure Finals runs.. So the idea that he overcomes long odds to make the Finals is false - he literally stacked the deck in a weak conference that didn't require a strong cast to win it

(you could argue that lebron made it with a weak cast in 15' in addition to 07', but Kyrie played all but 2 games in that Eastern run)
.

Turbo Slayer

10-06-2019, 08:34 PM

Well you don't believe in rings in the modern era because MJ has the most and that means nothing to you

And you don't care about every player's signature accomplishment - winning as "the man" (similar to 11' Dirk, 06' Wade, 09' Kobe, 19' Kawhi, or 12' Lebron) - MJ has 6 rings like that, but that means nothing to you

So forget rings... and forget winning as "the man"... You don't care about that stuff... And forget stats like scoring or efficiency rating, because MJ is #1 at those and you don't care

And forget 2-way accolades like seasons with both all-nba and all-defense, or seasons with the scoring title and 1st team all-defense - MJ is #1 in these areas but you don't care

So what do you care about??... From my recollection, you care about winning as the "underdog" (1), and having weaker teams that play stronger teams (2) .... it's also important that the team collapses without the star player (3) and that the star is perceived as "carrying" Big 3's to the Finals (4)... I'll address these 4 points and show you why MJ has the edge in these areas as well (in addition to the winning and stats arguments that you don't care about)

1) Winning as underdog - We know that Lebron's 16' Finals was one of the best comeback wins ever - it would be the best if not for the Dray suspension

But the Cavs had a Big 3 just like the Warriors, and Lebron's 2nd option demolished their 1st option... so the Cavs' underdog status wasn't because of less talent - it was due to Lebron only winning 57 games in the regular season instead of flirting with 70 like Kawhi and Curry did

Ultimately, the only talent deficit that Lebron overcame was the 07' ECF, but MJ overcame bigger ones - only MJ beat a perennial 3-all-star team with zero all-stars; only MJ took a low seed deep in the playoffs; only MJ beat the #1 SRS team with the #10 SRS team (lebron's 07' Cavs were #7 SRS and beat the #6 SRS pistons)

2) Having a weak team that faces a stronger team - Lebron and Curry both had Big 3's, but only 1 had the best team of the era... Lebron gets props for facing good "comp", but the reality is that he ceded the best teams to other stars.. Even during his Miami run, the Spurs had the best team despite an older core and the "not 6, not 7" expectations of the Heat's Big 3

3) Team collapses without the star - Any team that has 1 big ball-dominator will lose without their ball-dominator (lebron-ball, harden-ball, westbrook-ball, nash-ball).. So it isn't just Lebron - if a team employs the ball-dominant, CP3-Lebron brand, the team will lose without that player.. that's just how that inferior brand works

Otoh, teams that don't have a ball-dominator (most champions) are playing good basketball and moving the ball with or without their top guy... Good basketball wins games regardless of talent and the best teams play good basketballand have talent that doesn't disrupt the good basketball

4) Making the Finals with Big 3's, but being perceived as carrying a weak cast - Lebron had the best 2nd option in the conference in 2018, and the best 2nd and 3rd options from 2011-2017 (super-teams).

So he only made it with a weak cast once (2007), when everyone else was doing it too (09' Dwight.. 02/03 Kidd.. 01' Iverson)..

Ultimately, guys like Dwight, AI, Lebron and Kidd proved that a good cast usually wasn't needed to win the conference from 2001-2009, yet Lebron failed in 09/10 and stacked the deck from 11-18' to ensure Finals runs.. So the idea that he overcomes long odds to make the Finals is false - he literally stacked the deck in a weak conference that didn't require a strong cast to win it

(you could argue that lebron made it with a weak cast in 15' in addition to 07', but Kyrie played all but 2 games in that Eastern run)
.
Good point. MJ the GOAT

3ball

12-14-2019, 09:35 PM

Revised ranking of Big 2 comp from MJ's era and 2020:

1) Shaq/Penny
2) Magic/Worthy
3) Kawhi/PG
5) Malone/Stockton
6) Harden/Westbrook
7) Barkley/KJ
8) Drexler/Porter
9) Payton/Kemp
10) Lillard/McCollum
11) Alonzo/Tim Hardaway
12) Jokic/Murray
13) Ewing/Mason (Mason all-nba and all-defense in 97'.. 16/11/6)

The early 90's Pistons weren't included because they had a Big 3 in a Big 2 era (Isiah/Dumars/dpoy Rodman - 3 HOF's in their prime).. Also the Big 4 Cavs from 1989 had 3 perennial all-stars that season plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper

RRR3

12-14-2019, 09:37 PM

Funny how suddenly Rodman is a superstar when it suits 3ball’s agenda.

3ball

12-14-2019, 09:42 PM

[QUOTE=RRR3]Funny how suddenly Rodman is a superstar when it suits 3ball

NBAGOAT

12-14-2019, 09:46 PM

why are you allowed to list guys from both conferences in the 90s but not in the 2020s. Like where the hell is giannis/middleton. Definitely better than jokic/murray or even dame/cj at this point.

If you think bledsoe makes them a big 3, then someone like millsap and lou make the nuggets and clippers have a big 3(really clips have a big 4). The sonics and suns have big 3's too with detlef and majerle.

3ball

12-14-2019, 09:49 PM

why are you allowed to list guys from both conferences in the 90s but not in the 2020s. Like where the hell is giannis/middleton. Definitely better than jokic/murray or even dame/cj at this point.

Meh, last year Middleton was less than 09' Mo Williams:

MO WILLIAMS.......... 18/3/5.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
KHRIS MIDDLETON... 18/5/3.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp

Big 3's require all-nba players, which I don't believe Middleton is

19' Giannis had a similar supporting cast to 09' Lebron - both failed to carry their 1 seed through a weaker East, and Dwight infact was able to carry his weak cast to the Finals instead in 09'

NBAGOAT

12-14-2019, 09:54 PM

Meh, last year Middleton was less than 09' Mo Williams:

MO WILLIAMS.......... 18/3/5.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
KHRIS MIDDLETON... 18/5/3.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp

Big 3's require all-nba players, which I don't believe Middleton is

19' Giannis had a similar supporting cast to 09' Lebron - both failed to carry their 1 seed through a weaker East, and Dwight infact was able to carry his weak cast to the Finals instead in 09'

I was looking at him more this year but anthony mason and mccollum arent all-nba players either. Then from last year what about Embiid/Butler?

Edit: and current westbrook is not an all-nba player. Neither is kj when he played with barkley. You're just being purposely picky and choosey with your criteria for a "big 2". It's stupid anyway some teams have big 3's, some have big 4's and some have a superstar surrounded by super role players