Bulls STRATEGY (not age) destroyed Bad Boys [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Da_Realist

09-16-2019, 12:49 PM

but what happened to the bad boys in '92

They lost their edge. The league saw them get swept the year before and then walk off without even shaking hands like defeated cowards. It's hard to recover from getting swept. No one was intimidated any more.

They imploded. The friction that resulted from Isiah Thomas being left off the Dream Team that was coached by Chuck Daly caused an internal rift that would never fully heal. Daly left for New Jersey at the end of the season.

They lost chemistry. Vinnie Johnson was shipped off to San Antonio. James Edwards was shipped to LA.

Da_Realist

09-16-2019, 12:55 PM

So Pippen was the key to defeating them?

The Bad Boys had 3 HOF players not named Adrian Dantley/Mark Aguirre, Vinnie Johnson or Bill Laimbeer and were led by a HOF coach that eventually coached the Dream Team.

Makes sense that it would take more than the great Michael Jordan to beat them.

RRR3

09-16-2019, 12:59 PM

Da_Realist

09-16-2019, 01:00 PM

[QUOTE=RRR3]Aguirre, Johnson and Laimbeer aren

AirBonner

09-16-2019, 01:02 PM

MJ had to stack the deck to beat a deteriorating bad boys

RRR3

09-16-2019, 01:03 PM

not named
Yeah, saying that insinuates those guys were HOFers too :hammerhead:

Especially Aguirre since you listed him with Dantley

guy

09-16-2019, 01:04 PM

MJ had to stack the deck to beat a deteriorating bad boys

How did they do that? They had no significant roster changes from 88 to 91.

Manny98

09-16-2019, 01:05 PM

John also said that your hero isn't top 5 all time :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRbtqTkssis

Da_Realist

09-16-2019, 01:10 PM

John also said that your hero isn't top 5 all time :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRbtqTkssis

He also admitted hating on MJ because he's a "Bad Boy" which Jalen Rose (little brother) called him out on. See video in OP.

The point is this Bad Boy that has admitted to hating on MJ had every opportunity to blame age for why his team lost to the Bulls. He didn't. He pointed to strategy. And insinuated that they trash talked Pippen into a migraine headache in order to beat the Bulls in 1990.

Ainosterhaspie

09-16-2019, 01:11 PM

guy

09-16-2019, 01:12 PM

The Bad Boys had 3 HOF players not named Adrian Dantley/Mark Aguirre, Vinnie Johnson or Bill Laimbeer and were led by a HOF coach that eventually coached the Dream Team.

Makes sense that it would take more than the great Michael Jordan to beat them.

These arguments about expansion and the Pistons getting older being the reason the Bulls won are ridiculous. What’s lost is that the Bulls GOT better which younger teams tend to do over time. Pippen and Grant made leaps in those years and that had a much bigger impact on them winning then anything else. Start the Bulls dynasty 3 years earlier and put the 91-93 Bulls in place of the 88-90 Bulls and the Bad Boy Pistons never make a finals in those years and the Bulls still win 6 championships.

ArbitraryWater

09-16-2019, 01:13 PM

They lost their edge. The league saw them get swept the year before and then walk off without even shaking hands like defeated cowards. It's hard to recover from getting swept. No one was intimidated any more.

They imploded. The friction that resulted from Isiah Thomas being left off the Dream Team that was coached by Chuck Daly caused an internal rift that would never fully heal. Daly left for New Jersey at the end of the season.

They lost chemistry. Vinnie Johnson was shipped off to San Antonio. James Edwards was shipped to LA.

Hm.

They were "figured out" because they walked off the court without shaking hands?

Da_Realist

09-16-2019, 01:17 PM

Record and SRS show Pistons peaked in 89 and declined in 90, then declined significantly in 91. Losing to the Bulls put an exclamation point on the decline, but it was already clear they weren't the same team anymore.

In other words, the Bulls were the better team. Every great team has a peak and a decline. The Pistons beat the Celtics on their decline. And they didn't beat the best version of the 80's Lakers. In fact, Magic injured his hamstring before halftime of Game 2.

The Pistons that were beaten in 91 went 15-4 in the playoffs while winning all 3 road games in the Finals just a year before.

:edit: The Pistons went 15-5, not 15-4 in the 1990 Playoffs. 3 of those losses to the Bulls. Outside of the Bulls, the Pistons went 11-2.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-16-2019, 01:18 PM

A number of reasons.

The main being...

-Jordan building his body up
-Pippen coming into his own
-Phil making an offense that involved everyone, and ultimately outclassed Detroit.

The "bad boys" weren't the same 89 and 90 team. Still formidable and physical though.

TheMan

09-16-2019, 01:22 PM

So Pippen was the key to defeating them?
Him and Grant getting their heads outta their asses, unlike Game 7 of the 90 ECFs... No one can do it alone, sorta like Bran had to team up with all time great and FMVP Wade and top 3 PF Bosh to even sniff a chip.

Thanks for playing...:cheers:

RRR3

09-16-2019, 01:35 PM

Him and Grant getting their heads outta their asses, unlike Game 7 of the 90 ECFs... No one can do it alone, sorta like Bran had to team up with all time great and FMVP Wade and top 3 PF Bosh to even sniff a chip.

Thanks for playing...:cheers:
What’s LeBron got to do with anything?

Insecure much?

sdot_thadon

09-16-2019, 01:37 PM

Meh, it's not any one reason, more like a group of circumstances:

Pippen and Grants improvement

Bad boys aging, in the sense of 3 straight finals appearances. Most teams are toast by then.

and the most overlooked aspect. The flagrant foul rule being implemented that particular season. Their notoriety was based on basically clobbering guys right? Well should it be much of a surprise that the season they were swept happened to be the same year the flagrant rule comes along. Identity neutered.

Phoenix

09-16-2019, 01:47 PM

Let's not lose sight of the fact that if not for an ascending Bulls team, that 'diminished' Pistons squad( whose core of Dumars, Isiah and Rodman averaged a younger age than the Warriors who made their 5th straight finals this year, and nobody called them 'old' but I digress) gets to the finals and I'm not sure they don't beat the Lakers in a tough final series between the two. This isn't a team that scrapped into the playoffs and lost in the first round. They won 50 games with Isiah missing time and got to the conference finals. As far as champions being 'knocked' off their throne we've seen alot worse.

Yes, we get it. They weren't as good as 89 or 90, and fell off in 92. But considering that the Bulls nearly beat them in 90 taking into account Scottie's migraine, I think the 91 Bulls would have beaten any prior version of the Pistons because their 'beat the shit out of MJ' strategy along with Scottie and Horace not being good enough had a shelf life. Hell if you could hypothetically transplant 91 Scottie into 1990 the Bulls win and probably go all the way.

jayfan

09-16-2019, 01:50 PM

OP, what's your point? What are you getting at with this thread?

.

Manny98

09-16-2019, 01:52 PM

The Bad Boys couldn't contain Pippen

jayfan

09-16-2019, 01:55 PM

Let's not lose sight of the fact that if not for an ascending Bulls team, that 'diminished' Pistons squad( whose core of Dumars, Isiah and Rodman averaged a younger age than the Warriors who made their 5th straight finals this year, and nobody called them 'old' but I digress) gets to the finals and I'm not sure they don't beat the Lakers in a tough final series between the two. Even if LA beat them......they were still good enough to make the finals. Yes, we get it. They weren't as good as 89 or 90, and fell off in 92. But considering that the Bulls nearly beat them in 90 taking into account Scottie's migraine, I think the 91 Bulls would have beaten any prior version of the Pistons because their 'beat the shit out of MJ' strategy had a shelf life along with Pippen/Grant's development. Hell if you could hypothetically transplant 91 Scottie into 1990 the Bulls win and probably go all the way.

Rodman wasn't the core. Nice trying to throw him in there instead of Laimbeer to lower the age average, though.

:facepalm

Are Bulls fans really still this insecure about being owned by the Bad Boys?

sdot_thadon

09-16-2019, 01:58 PM

Da_Realist

09-16-2019, 01:59 PM

OP, what's your point? What are you getting at with this thread?

.

Defeating the (ISH) notion that the Bulls only beat the Pistons because the Pistons were too old. That there were basketball reasons behind it.

Da_Realist

09-16-2019, 02:01 PM

Just wait until you realize this thread isn't even about the badboys per se.....:oldlol:

If I wanted to pump up MJ I would not have posted this video because Salley is speaking specifically about the matchup problem Pippen created. I would have posted one of the thousands of "MJ learned to trust his teammates" videos.

jayfan

09-16-2019, 02:10 PM

Defeating the (ISH) notion that the Bulls only beat the Pistons because the Pistons were too old. That there were basketball reasons behind it.

I'll admit there were basketball reasons. Detroit was fortunate to beat them the year before. Phil was the key.

That being said, the Pistons were older. And players aged more rapidly in that era than in today's "kit glove" era. I don't want to hear about the ages of Warriors players. Players in the 80's (especially the Pistons and their opponents) hit the deck more times in half a season than anyone on Warriors has in his entire career.

Also, it wasn't the same team as their peak team (to me, 87 was their peak). Mahorn was gone. Vinnie was gone. Both very big parts of the team.

But yes, there's no question that Phil made a huge difference.

Ainosterhaspie

09-16-2019, 02:12 PM

In other words, the Bulls were the better team. Every great team has a peak and a decline. The Pistons beat the Celtics on their decline. And they didn't beat the best version of the 80's Lakers. In fact, Magic injured his hamstring before halftime of Game 2.

The Pistons that were beaten in 91 went 15-4 in the playoffs while winning all 3 road games in the Finals just a year before.

:edit: The Pistons went 15-5, not 15-4 in the 1990 Playoffs. 3 of those losses to the Bulls. Outside of the Bulls, the Pistons went 11-2.
91 Bulls could probably beat 89 Pistons. I'm not trying to say otherwise, but the 91 Pistons were not the best version of themselves. They had declined significantly by that point.

Manny98

09-16-2019, 02:15 PM

guy

09-16-2019, 02:26 PM

Rodman wasn't the core. Nice trying to throw him in there instead of Laimbeer to lower the age average, though.

:facepalm

Are Bulls fans really still this insecure about being owned by the Bad Boys?

You can add Laimbeer in there but how was Rodman not part of the core? He was making all star games, all-defensive first teams, and winning DPOYs during that time. He was clearly one of their most important players.

Phoenix

09-16-2019, 02:48 PM

Rodman wasn't the core. Nice trying to throw him in there instead of Laimbeer to lower the age average, though.

:facepalm

Are Bulls fans really still this insecure about being owned by the Bad Boys?

Nice try acting like Rodman wasn't comfortably the third best player on the team by 91. He was easily a 'core' piece. You could give a silly hot-take and act like Laimbeer was the third wheel in 91 for shits and giggles, and that ups the core to 31, which still isn't old. Point remains whichever direction you'd like to go. The 91 Bulls would have likely beaten either of the Pistons title teams. 'Age' was why they got swept, not why they got beaten.

But yes, 30 years old in 1990 is different from 30 in 2019. We all know the current NBA is comparatively a cupcake era.

sdot_thadon

09-16-2019, 03:33 PM

If I wanted to pump up MJ .....
Your words not mine.

My thing is why the notion that it has to be one or the other when it's clearly all of the above? After 3 finals runs alot of teams are spent, especially if they don't add or change pieces of the core. Also the bulls improved, especially their 2nd and 3rd best players so there's also that. 30 in 1991 is not the same as 30 in 2019, there's also that to consider. The rule change that directly targeted Detroit's team identity was also implemented.

In a vaccum one of those, maybe 2 of those are possible to overcome as a team. But all at he same time? :( There's good reason they never did anything of consequence beyond that season.

Da_Realist

09-16-2019, 03:51 PM

Your words not mine.

My thing is why the notion that it has to be one or the other when it's clearly all of the above? After 3 finals runs alot of teams are spent, especially if they don't add or change pieces of the core. Also the bulls improved, especially their 2nd and 3rd best players so there's also that. 30 in 1991 is not the same as 30 in 2019, there's also that to consider. The rule change that directly targeted Detroit's team identity was also implemented.

In a vaccum one of those, maybe 2 of those are possible to overcome as a team. But all at he same time? :( There's good reason they never did anything of consequence beyond that season.

The Pistons were a tough team and they got under a lot of people's skin but they beat people because they were a great basketball team not because they beat people up. This idea that they needed to beat people up in order to win would insult me if I were a Pistons fan.

ArbitraryWater

09-16-2019, 04:11 PM

The Pistons lost their edge because they did not shake hands with the opponent

After this, the league had them figured out

thx OP

3ball

09-16-2019, 06:37 PM

Straight from the mouth of John Salley. The Bad Boys couldn't match up with Pippen at the point and they couldn't deal with the triangle while at the same time try to contain MJ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNPP-Cjw8Xg&t=6m33s
Right, but Pippen didn't play the point and the year the bulls beat the Pistons was MJ's big point guard and high assist playoffs (1991)

Salley is correct that strategy beat them though, but he can't flesh it out - he can't actually articulate as to why

But here's why:

the goat + minimal offensive help (18 ppg pippen) = dynasty

Salley is essentially saying that as soon as pippen got to that minimal level (18 ppg), it was enough help for mj to be a dynasty... Before that, the Pistons said they "didn't even think" about Pippen

sdot_thadon

09-16-2019, 06:45 PM

The Pistons were a tough team and they got under a lot of people's skin but they beat people because they were a great basketball team not because they beat people up. This idea that they needed to beat people up in order to win would insult me if I were a Pistons fan.
So what you're basically saying then, is their decline had nothing to do with the rule change, nothing to do with their age, and only due to the bulls strategy? Aka the strategy that was so great they lost the 1st rd the following year to a completley different opponent and never made the postseason again going forward?

3ball

09-16-2019, 06:51 PM

So what you're basically saying then, is their decline had nothing to do with the rule change, nothing to do with their age, and only due to the bulls strategy? Aka the strategy that was so great they lost the 1st rd the following year to a completley different opponent and never made the postseason again going forward?
Yes, the Bulls beat them so convincingly, that they ended the Pistons' way of playing

After that series, it was clear the Pistons would never win that way again, even though Isiah/dumars/rodman were only 29/27/29 years old

It was similar to the 14' Finals, when the Spurs ended the Heat's 3-peat attempt - the Heat and the little 'efficiency' kick they were on was over - that way of playing was done and proven inferior

Phoenix

09-16-2019, 08:50 PM

You could see the Bulls gaining on the Pistons before 91. In 89, they were the only team to take any games off the Pistons that entire playoffs. To take that a step further, between 89 and 90 the Bulls won more games against Detroit than all other teams combined when you add BOTH playoff years. The 91 Pistons weren't as good and on the decline, no argument. But a worse version of Chicago was pushing the best version of Detroit further than anyone else.

Is it *unreasonable* to extrapolate that the Bulls win in 91 even if Detroit was better/younger/healthier? I'm not talking sweep, but a comfortable 6 games? Unreasonable? Detroit's formula for beating Chicago was a by-committee defensive effort designed to punish MJ without having to worry about one of his teammates picking up the slack. That strategy was going to only work until 1) MJ got stronger, more able to withstand the physical defense and more intelligient about how best to attack it and 2) Pippen/Grant developed enough for it to not be a one man band out there. But again, you saw the Bulls gaining ground. The results of 91 really seemed inevitable regardless of which Pistons squad was out there.

LAmbruh

09-16-2019, 09:01 PM

https://media1.giphy.com/media/B1uajA01vvL91Urtsp/giphy.gif

:yaohappy:

Phoenix

09-16-2019, 09:41 PM

Got ole Lames swinging from the ole curlies again :banana:

tpols

09-16-2019, 09:41 PM

so basically once they had even a smidgen to deal with outside jordan they couldnt keep up.

...

GOAT.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

09-16-2019, 10:00 PM

Got ole Lames swinging from the ole curlies again :banana:

When lamb isn't talking to himself, he feels that echo chamber closing in.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Djk9ilQA2jjOg/giphy.gif

Da_Realist

09-16-2019, 10:31 PM

Smoke117

09-16-2019, 11:05 PM

Funny thing is...Salley never took responsibility to do what was needed. "Who's gonna guard Scottie? He'll back Isiah down. Dennis? Put Dennis on him. Well then who's gonna rebound? Laimbeer has to chase Horace."

That should have been Salley's responsibility! :facepalm

Uh...Salley played 17mpg in that series, idiot. That's beside the point that Rodman mostly defended Pippen in that 91 series and Scottie did whatever he wanted against him...but John Salley is going to defend him? You're a fukking moron who clearly never actually watched that series.

3ball

09-17-2019, 12:06 AM

Uh...Salley played 17mpg in that series, idiot. That's beside the point that Rodman mostly defended Pippen in that 91 series and Scottie did whatever he wanted against him...but John Salley is going to defend him? You're a fukking moron who clearly never actually watched that series.

PIPPEN 91' ECF:...'' 22.0.. 7.8.. 5.3.. 47.5%.. sweeps a 3 HOF dynasty

WADE 11' FINALS:. 27.0.. 7.0.. 5.2.. 54.6%.. loses to underdog euro
KYRIE 17' FINALS:. 29.4.. 4.0.. 4.4.. 47.2%.. "goat" loses with goat 2nd option help (wtf)

^^^ Clearly, MJ won with less help... A lot less - the 3rd option stats have a similar deficit for MJ

And what did Pippen do against X-man in the 92' ECF? (got destroyed).... Or against juwan Howard in 97' 1st Rd?? (got destroyed)... Or Oakley in the 96 ECSF?? (got outplayed)... Or Schrempf in the 96' Finals?? (got outplayed)

Da_Realist

09-17-2019, 12:12 AM

Uh...Salley played 17mpg in that series, idiot. That's beside the point that Rodman mostly defended Pippen in that 91 series and Scottie did whatever he wanted against him...but John Salley is going to defend him? You're a fukking moron who clearly never actually watched that series.

Really. Calm down internet warrior. Sure I never watched the series. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I was referring to how Salley should have been the one to take on the rebounding responsibility if no one else could because defense and rebounding was what he was in Detroit to do.

You super sensitive internet warriors are clowns.

Smoke117

09-17-2019, 12:21 AM

PIPPEN 91' ECF:...'' 22.0.. 7.8.. 5.3.. 47.5%.. sweeps a 3 HOF dynasty

WADE 11' FINALS:. 27.0.. 7.0.. 5.2.. 54.6%.. loses to underdog euro
KYRIE 17' FINALS:. 29.4.. 4.0.. 4.4.. 47.2%.. "goat" loses with goat 2nd option help (wtf)

^^^ Clearly, MJ won with less help... A lot less - the 3rd option stats have a similar deficit for MJ

And what did Pippen do against X-man in the 92' ECF? (got destroyed).... Or against juwan Howard in 97' 1st Rd?? (got destroyed)... Or Oakley in the 96 ECSF?? (got outplayed)... Or Schrempf in the 96' Finals?? (got outplayed)

lol...of course here's 3ball to shit on Pippen to raise up Jordan when nothing I said had anything to do with his lover. You're such a pathetic obsessive loser you had to come in and respond to my post that has nothing to do with Jordan. I was giving Pippen props, though, and we can't have that, right? You are seriously the biggest fukking loser on this board. You make Wheels look sane.

Whether you like it or not, Scottie Pippen is considered a top 30 player all time. Nothing you fukking bitch about will change that, fukk boy. Jordan had a top 30 all time
player as a sidekick, period. Accept it and move on. None of this changes that Jordan is the GOAT you fukking nut job. Nobody is saying that. He didn't do it alone, though ,as obviously, nobody has ever done it alone you fukking headcase.

Smoke117

09-17-2019, 12:25 AM

Really. Calm down internet warrior. Sure I never watched the series. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I was referring to how Salley should have been the one to take on the rebounding responsibility if no one else could because defense and rebounding was what he was in Detroit to do.

You super sensitive internet warriors are clowns.

If you are going to run your mouth know what you are talking about. Is that too much to ask?