Is it true that MJ benefitted from playing in the 80s/90s?

[Cocaine80s]

Vast majority of people agree he would be irrelevant if he was playing in the 3ball era. I just wanted further confirmation because I agree with them. In fact I believe he would just be Donovan Mitchell with worse 3 point shooting. I would even put Kobe over him to round out my top 15 all time list

[Bawkish]

slow day for ISH

[Bronbron23]

Vast majority of people agree he would be irrelevant if he was playing in the 3ball era. I just wanted further confirmation because I agree with them. In fact I believe he would just be Donovan Mitchell with worse 3 point shooting. I would even put Kobe over him to round out my top 15 all time list
Well a slower less skilled, less athletic version of mj just won the NBA finals and is widely considered the best player in the NBA at the moment so I think Mike would be just fine although I know your trolling ass already know this.

[Phoenix]

https://media.giphy.com/media/6KukVPliFsbHW/giphy.gif

[Elosha]

^ Nice gif. :lol Thin ice indeed.

[superduper]

Well a slower less skilled, less athletic version of mj just won the NBA finals and is widely considered the best player in the NBA at the moment so I think Mike would be just fine although I know your trolling ass already know this.

COT DAYUM the evisceration :biggums:

[TheMan]

Vast majority of people agree he would be irrelevant if he was playing in the 3ball era. I just wanted further confirmation because I agree with them. In fact I believe he would just be Donovan Mitchell with worse 3 point shooting. I would even put Kobe over him to round out my top 15 all time list
Whatever Simon...pulling out your lesser used alts I see now that some of your prominent ones are getting banned.

[Ainosterhaspie]

He did not benefit from playing in the 80s. He mostly got crushed in the 80s.

[3ball]

.
All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Love 3
Kyrie 2
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
6 players, 15 appearances = 3/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals

[3ball]

He did not benefit from playing in the 80s. He mostly got crushed in the 80s.


Jordan averaged 33/6/6 in the 80's with an MVP, DPOY, and legendary run with a 6 seed in 89'

Ultimately, no one wins alone, but MJ won with the least (see previous post).. :confusedshrug:

[paksat]

Simon is it true that:

You have 40+ accounts
Have never touched a female
Have never even touched a guy despite careful planning
Was promised a postcard from lebronze's yard man if you trolled ISH for 60 years?

[Ainosterhaspie]

Jordan averaged 33/6/6 in the 80's with an MVP, DPOY, and legendary run with a 6 seed in 89'

Ultimately, no one wins alone, but MJ won with the least (see previous post).. :confusedshrug:
OP implies Jordan benefitted from playing in the 80s. But Jordan didn't win in the 80s so it doesn't really make sense to claim he benefitted from playing then. I'm not really attacking Jordan as much as attacking OPs premise. The 80s were a tough time for Jordan, not an easy time.

[Da_Realist]

OP implies Jordan benefitted from playing in the 80s. But Jordan didn't win in the 80s so it doesn't really make sense to claim he benefitted from playing then. I'm not really attacking Jordan as much as attacking OPs premise. The 80s were a tough time for Jordan, not an easy time.

He benefited by learning how to win.

[3ball]

OP implies Jordan benefitted from playing in the 80s. But Jordan didn't win in the 80s so it doesn't really make sense to claim he benefitted from playing then. I'm not really attacking Jordan as much as attacking OPs premise. The 80s were a tough time for Jordan, not an easy time.
Because he had no all-star teammate like everyone else had

if MJ had an all-star teammate in the 80's, he would've won a bunch of rings in the 80's instead of the 90's...

The instant he got just 1 all-star, he was unbeatable - MJ needed the least help ever .. it's a fact... So you keep bringing up the 80's when he had no help, which is dumb.. and yet he still almost beat the champs in 89' with pip getting 9 ppg on 40%

Of course, he needed the least help because he scored the most - it's intuitive

Btw, his goat stats in the 80's show that he had the easiest time of anyone in the 80's.. Chuck Daly said MJ was "embarrassing the league, he was that good"

[SouBeachTalents]

Because he had no all-star teammate like everyone else had

if MJ had an all-star teammate in the 80's, he would've won a bunch of rings in the 80's instead of the 90's...

The instant he got just 1 all-star, he was unbeatable - MJ needed the least help ever .. it's a fact... So you keep bringing up the 80's when he had no help, which is dumb.. and yet still almost beat the champs in 89'

And he needed the least help because he scored the most - it's intuitive

Btw, his goat stats in the 80's show that he had the easiest time of anyone in the 80's
So fcking delusional :oldlol: Even with an all-star, he's not getting through the Celtics/Pistons/Lakers his first 3-4 years in the league, FOH

[3ball]

So fcking delusional :oldlol: Even with an all-star, he's not getting through the Celtics/Pistons/Lakers his first 3-4 years in the league, FOH
Why not?

He basically beat the peak Pistons in 90' with just 1 all-star (pip averaged 16 on 43%), so he would definitely beat the Lakers and Celtics with a prime Pippen or other star

and I'm not saying he wins every year - but if he basically beat the peak Pistons with young pip in 1990, then he's at least going .500 against the Celtics/Lakers with prime Pip or another star..

One thing's certain - he isn't going 2/6 including 2 sweeps, 2 record defeats, and a goat choke like lebron did against spurs/warriors/mavs... We can agree on that much, right?... :cheers:


Facing great teams doesn't prevent a star from fielding great teams themselves that can compete EVENLY (i.e. lakers/celtics competed evenly in the 80's)... But Lebron is 2/6 including record blowouts and debacles, so he isn't competing evenly

[LAmbruh]

hornacek/ehlo, weak conference, shortened 3pt line, illegal defense, etc


yeah it's safe to say so

[Ainosterhaspie]

Because he had no all-star teammate like everyone else had

if MJ had an all-star teammate in the 80's, he would've won a bunch of rings in the 80's instead of the 90's...

The instant he got just 1 all-star, he was unbeatable - MJ needed the least help ever .. it's a fact... So you keep bringing up the 80's when he had no help, which is dumb.. and yet he still almost beat the champs in 89' with pip getting 9 ppg on 40%

Of course, he needed the least help because he scored the most - it's intuitive

Btw, his goat stats in the 80's show that he had the easiest time of anyone in the 80's.. Chuck Daly said MJ was "embarrassing the league, he was that good"
Why are you so defensive. I'm not attacking MJ. He's not seen as GOAT because of the 80s, he's seen as GOAT because of the 90s. Sure he laid some groundwork in the 80s, but that's all it was.

Facing Bird's peak Celtics in 86 wasn't some cruise series, neither was facing Pistons in 88, 89. I'm attacking OP, not Jordan. I don't reflexively try to diminish everything Jordan did unlike some people in this forum do for Jordan and other ATGs. OP is silly to include the 80s. That's all I'm saying. It's not a knock on Jordan that he wasn't winning those years. He wasn't ready and neither was his team. Guys don't generally lead teams to titles that young unless circumstances line up very favorably for them.

[superduper]

hornacek/ehlo, weak conference, shortened 3pt line, illegal defense, etc


yeah it's safe to say so

barea/terry, weak conference, 3pt chucking/empty paints, non-existent defense, etc

yeah it's safe to say Bran benefitted from the last 20 years

[ImKobe]

Vast majority of people agree he would be irrelevant if he was playing in the 3ball era. I just wanted further confirmation because I agree with them. In fact I believe he would just be Donovan Mitchell with worse 3 point shooting. I would even put Kobe over him to round out my top 15 all time list

So the post-2004 era doesn't have a direct correlation to inflated offensive numbers caused by rule changes?

[Ainosterhaspie]

So the post-2004 era doesn't have a direct correlation to inflated offensive numbers caused by rule changes?
Nope. League average DRtg from 2004 to 2018 was slightly better than the average from 85 to 98.

[LAmbruh]

Nope. League average DRtg from 2004 to 2018 was slightly better than the average from 85 to 98.
Ouch :oldlol:

[egokiller]

Imagine designing an entire website for a nephew that hates his life because he never witnessed GOAT MJ and needs an outlet to deal with his frustration over it.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

Nope. League average DRtg from 2004 to 2018 was slightly better than the average from 85 to 98.
During the time that both players had contenders, average drtg was much higher during lebron's time (09-18') than Jordan's (90-98')

[Ainosterhaspie]

During the time that both players had contenders, average drtg was much higher during lebron's time (09-18') than Jordan's (90-98')
Nope. Try again.

107.3 league average DRtg from 90-98.
107.0 league average DRtg from 09-18.

[3ball]

Sure he laid some groundwork in the 80s, but that's all it was.


It was everything

"The shot" that he hit in 1989 was the difference between another 1st Round exit/rebuild, versus being ECF vets, rivals to the champs and 1 year away from a title

If he misses that shot, he probably fails to win in Chicago and needs to team-hop to win...

Remember - if MJ averaged 38/8/8 on 49% like Lebron did against the #4 SRS Magic in 2009, then he fails to beat the #1 SRS Cavs, which required 40/6/8 on 53% and "the shot" to beat them.. (this is while pippen had worse stats than Mo and the Bulls had a worse defense)





Facing Bird's peak Celtics in 86 wasn't some cruise series, neither was facing Pistons in 88, 89. I'm attacking OP, not Jordan. I don't reflexively try to diminish everything Jordan did unlike some people in this forum do for Jordan and other ATGs. OP is silly to include the 80s. That's all I'm saying. It's not a knock on Jordan that he wasn't winning those years. He wasn't ready and neither was his team. Guys don't generally lead teams to titles that young unless circumstances line up very favorably for them.


Who was more ready to compete on the championship level in their first 3 tries against champs??



Jordan 86' vs. champs - 44 on 50%
Lebron 07' vs. champs - 22 on 36%

Jordan 89-90' vs. champs - 31 on 47%
Lebron 2008.. vs. champs - 26 on 35%

Lebron 2011.. vs. champs - 18 on 47%


As usual, anything you day negative about MJ, applies more to Lebron






He's not seen as GOAT because of the 80s, he's seen as GOAT because of the 90s.


His time in the 80's gave us the goat 2-way season (88') and playoff record (63) - both goat things... It also proved he could carry 6 seeds to the ECF, while playing the champs the toughest, despite 9 ppg on 40% from his 2nd option

Otoh, the 90's simply showed what we already knew - once MJ got a small amount of legit help (18 ppg pippen), it was enough for a dynasty - he didn't need a team stacked with multiple stars like virtually every other top 10 candidate needs... he was already knocking on the door with shit help in 89' and 90'..
.

[Ainosterhaspie]

You keep trying to pick a fight. I'm not bashing on Jordan here. Not sure why you are feeling the need to defend him. OP seems to suggest that the 80s were weak and that boosts Jordan's legacy unfairly or something. I'm just saying, even if we pretend what he's saying is true (and I'm not saying it is), so what? Jordan became GOAT in the 90s. It doesn't matter if the 80s were weak or not. I don't get why you think that's some sort of attack on Jordan or why you feel compelled to insert LeBron into this.

[3ball]

You keep trying to pick a fight. I'm not bashing on Jordan here. Not sure why you are feeling the need to defend him. OP seems to suggest that the 80s were weak and that boosts Jordan's legacy unfairly or something. I'm just saying, even if we pretend what he's saying is true (and I'm not saying it is), so what? Jordan became GOAT in the 90s. It doesn't matter if the 80s were weak or not. I don't get why you think that's some sort of attack on Jordan or why you feel compelled to insert LeBron into this.
You snuck some shots in there

But remember - if MJ averaged 38/8/8 on 49% like Lebron did against the #4 SRS Magic in 09', then he fails to beat the #1 SRS Cavs in 89', which required 40/6/8 on 53% and "the shot" to beat them.. (this is while pippen had worse stats than Mo and the Bulls had a worse defense)

[Turbo Slayer]

Bow down to LeGOAT!!! :bowdown:

[ImKobe]

Nope. League average DRtg from 2004 to 2018 was slightly better than the average from 85 to 98.

So the offensive numbers did not go up post-2004?

League Ortg was at 102.9 in 2004, lowest since 1998-99 lockout season(excluding that, lowest since the 77-78 season). Immediately following the rule changes it went to 106.1 and climbed up to 108.3 in 2009, which was the highest in league history. We've seen that mark broken for 3 straight years now.

But rule changes have nothing to do with this. Perimeter players did not see their numbers increase after they completely banned handchecking :rolleyes: .

[Ainosterhaspie]

So the offensive numbers did not go up post-2004?

League Ortg was at 102.9 in 2004, lowest since 1998-99 lockout season(excluding that, lowest since the 77-78 season). Immediately following the rule changes it went to 106.1 and climbed up to 108.3 in 2009, which was the highest in league history. We've seen that mark broken for 3 straight years now.

But rule changes have nothing to do with this. Perimeter players did not see their numbers increase after they completely banned handchecking :rolleyes: .

WTF does the DRtg in 2004 have to do with MJs legacy and playing years? He didn't play in 2004. LeBron did though. Yeah defense was particularly strong from about 97 to 04, but that wasn't Jordan's prime and he didn't play meaningful games most of those years. When he was in his prime building his GOAT legacy defense was roughly the same as it was during LeBron

[TheMan]

.
All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Love 3
Kyrie 2
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
6 players, 15 appearances = 3/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals
:eek: :eek: :eek:

But the Bran stans claim MJ played on a historically stacked team???

Or did he play with only one perennial All Star plus a bunch of good role players? They way they tell it, he played with multiple HOFers in their peak/prime.

GOAT :bowdown:

[Manny98]

.
All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Love 3
Kyrie 2
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
6 players, 15 appearances = 3/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals
Do the same for all NBA appearances

All star is meaningless

[3ball]

Do the same for all NBA appearances

All star is meaningless
Lebron played with more guys that:

1) were all-nba alongside him (Wade and Kyrie vs. Pip)

2) have all-nba credentials (Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie vs Pip)

3) were all-stars alongside him (6 guys vs 1 guy for MJ)

4) were legit rim protectors (Mosgov, Zydrunas, Shaq, Chandler, McGee), versus no rim protection for MJ (no center averaged over 0.5 blk, except corzine's 0.8 in 88').

5) had all-defense credentials (Wade, Battier, Hughes, Varejao vs Pip and Rodman)

[superduper]

Lebron played with more guys that:

1) were all-nba alongside him (Wade and Kyrie vs. Pip)

2) have all-nba credentials (Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie vs Pip)

3) were all-stars alongside him (6 guys vs 1 guy for MJ)

4) were legit rim protectors (Mosgov, Zydrunas, Shaq, Chandler, McGee), versus no rim protection for MJ (no center averaged over 0.5 blk, except corzine's 0.8 in 88').

5) had all-defense credentials (Wade, Battier, Hughes, Varejao vs Pip and Rodman)

You forgot to list Wade as a legit rim protector.

He's the best rim protecting G of all time bar none.

[RRR3]

Lebron played with more guys that:

1) were all-nba alongside him (Wade and Kyrie vs. Pip)

2) have all-nba credentials (Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie vs Pip)

3) were all-stars alongside him (6 guys vs 1 guy for MJ)

4) were legit rim protectors (Mosgov, Zydrunas, Shaq, Chandler, McGee), versus no rim protection for MJ (no center averaged over 0.5 blk, except corzine's 0.8 in 88').

5) had all-defense credentials (Wade, Battier, Hughes, Varejao vs Pip and Rodman)
Rodman wasn

[3ball]

Rodman wasn’t all-nba now. Grant and Oakley didn’t make all-defense teams.

3liar strikes again.

Lebron played with more guys that:


1) were all-nba alongside him (Wade and Kyrie vs. Pip)

2) have all-nba credentials (Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie vs Pip, Rodman)

3) were all-stars alongside him (6 guys vs 1 guy for MJ)

4) were legit rim protectors (Mosgov, Zydrunas, Shaq, Chandler, McGee), versus no rim protection for MJ (no center averaged over 0.5 blk, except corzine's 0.8 in 88').


Doesn't change the point being made - Lebron had more help. He played with more good players on both sides of the ball... he had so many guys that he could afford to waste good players like Rose, Hood, Crowder... Had other good defenders like shumpert, birdman, haslem.. 14/10 guys like Gooden and Tristan got 10/13 in 15' Finals.. just tons of really good players..
.

[StrongLurk]

I've been reading a lot of stuff this offseason and honestly...I'm closer than ever to thinking Lebron is the actual GOAT (along with MJ).

They are both clearly above everyone else.

[3ball]

I've been reading a lot of stuff this offseason and honestly...I'm closer than ever to thinking Lebron is the actual GOAT (along with MJ).

They are both clearly above everyone else.
How can he be goat when MJ has 2 three-peats and all the FMVP's?

Don't mention comp when the competitive formats between the eras was different (2-star teams back then vs the Big 3's now) - so the talent deficit that Lebron lost to in 17' was a 1-star deficit (big 3 vs. big 4), and therefore a smaller talent deficit than the ones MJ defeated in 1989 (2-star deficit vs. Cavs), and 1991 (1 HOF deficit and the pistons had three extra 3x all-stars in laimbeer/aguirre/rodman)..

Indeed, MJ defeated at least 3 teams that had more talent (89' Cavs, 89' Knicks, 91' Pistons), while Lebron only beat the 07' Pistons and failed against a 1-star deficit in 17'... We already know that in the 2016 Finals, Lebron's 2nd option demolished the Warriors 1st option, so its hard to say lebron faced a talent deficit there.. Ditto in 2012 and 2013, when the young Thunder were inferior to prime Lebron/Wade/Bosh, and the 13' Spurs weren't better than the 4 HOF Heat (with Allen)... So again, Lebron only beat 1 more talented team (07' Pistons).

And don't mention career totals because we get it - he's played a long time... :facepalm ... but regarding who is the better basketball player, it's what he does per game that matters - that's what measures degree of domination, while longevity merely measures length of domination.. we already know that MJ is #1 in PPG and efficiency rating (PER) - what statistical argument does lebron have that's BETTER than that?.. mj also leads lebron in oreb, spg, ft %, ortg, usg, less TO's and ws/48.
.