Are the 07' Pistons the only time Lebron overcame a talent deficit?

[3ball]

And that talent gap was minimal

One could argue that 05' Hughes > Rip Hamilton, but lebron simply reduced hughes in 06/07

And 2-time all-star Zydrunas > Tayshaun

It's not much of a deficit at all, which is why both teams had basically the same record

[Bronbron23]

16 warriors? On paper love and Kyrie look better or as good as dray and Klay but come playoff time I'd take dray and Klay over love and kyrie all day. They can put up almost the same amount of points but were much better defensively. Warriors bench was a little better also

[scuzzy]

You're forgetting :no:


Derrek Snow > Billupsgraham

Trey Gooden >> Sheedgraham

[RRR3]

LeBron got to the ECF with trash in 09. Team was literally only good cuz of him.

[Trollsmasher]

'11 Bulls and Celtics
'12 Celtics and OKC
'13 Pacers and Spurs
'14 Pacers
'15 Hawks
'16 Raptors and Warriors

[RRR3]

Most of that list is laughable but it is true LeBron beat a 60 win Hawks team with garbage (he had a hobbled Kyrie for two out of the four games iirc, but clearly would have beat them regardless)

[Ainosterhaspie]

He's overcome more talented squads in numerous series but you're too agenda driven to see/accept/admit it. There's not really any point in pointing it out really, but I'm bored so...

Every series he won in 2018 was overcoming talent deficits. That Cavs roster proved the next year to be the worst in the league.

The 16 Warriors had more talent than the Cavs. Maybe it was close at the top, but the Warriors depth was much better.

The 15 Hawks had four all stars and won about 60 games (forget the exact number off the top of my head). Love was out that whole series, Irving missed 2 of 4 games and played limited minutes in a third. Cavs swept anyway.

The 12 Celtics had three hall of famers and an all star point guard. Yes they were getting older, but Bosh was out much of the series. Celtics had the superior squad. That same year with Bosh out the Heat beat the Pacers. Again given the loss of Bosh, Pacers were overall the more talented team.

The 07 Pistons were comfortably better than the Cavs that year. Big Z was two years removed from his last ever all star appearance. Prince was an all NBA defender, Billups was an all NBA third team player. Wallace was a four time all star including the year before and after this one which is more relevant than big Z's appearance two years earlier. And Hamilton was in the middle of his three straight all star appearances.

These are of the top of my head. LeBron has done more with subpar cats than just about any player in history.

[LAmbruh]

2017 + 2018 Cavaliers were underdogs nearly every series outside the first round


Everyone was screaming at the top of their lungs mid season they would'nt escape the east.


2017

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2017-nba-predictions/
https://i.postimg.cc/wjsTcCXH/fhjkfjkf.png (https://postimages.org/)




2018

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-nba-predictions/
https://i.postimg.cc/tg3q8FvM/fgjhfgjhfgjhfgh.png (https://postimages.org/)

[Mr Feeny]

I think so. But he still took Detroit to 6 games in 2006.
It's also a little disingenuous because he's had the most talented team in the league for more seasons than not so the chances of "overcoming a talent deficit" were never going to be very high.

[3ball]

16 warriors? On paper love and Kyrie look better or as good as dray and Klay but come playoff time I'd take dray and Klay over love and kyrie all day. They can put up almost the same amount of points but were much better defensively. Warriors bench was a little better also
Of course you would because the Warriors move the ball, which is more effective in the playoffs and conducive for good teammate contribution than Lebron/CP3-style ball-domination

ball movement has always gotten better looks for teammates than 1 guy dominating the ball in the half court... accordingly, skillsets that allow ball movement (Curry, MJ, Bird) will yield the best teams given equal casts, coaching smarts, and #1 option statistical output..

Any playground fool can get stats by dominating the ball, but it takes far superior skillset to get stats without dominating the ball (shooting, off-ball footwork/skill, instinct for quicker decisions), so the ball moves and teammates have the best opportunities to be real threats
.

[RRR3]

I think so. But he still took Detroit to 6 games in 2006.
It's also a little disingenuous because he's had the most talented team in the league for more seasons than not so the chances of "overcoming a talent deficit" were never going to be very high.
:biggums:

He had the best teams when? 11-13 is probably it. 3 years.

[3ball]

But he still took Detroit to 6 games in 2006



I know you weren't necessarily comparing, but


06' LEBRON - 4 seed.. lost in 6 to non-champs.. had 2x all-star center & all-D sidekick
89' JORDAN - 6 seed.. lost in 6 to the champs.. zero teammates having any accolades

[3ball]

:biggums:

He had the best teams when? 11-13 is probably it. 3 years

.
The Heat had the best cast in the league from 11-14', let alone their weak conference

And show me a 2nd option in the East that is as good as Kevin Love

So show me someone with all-nba credentials and 26/13-caliber stats, and also top 4 in PER/VORP/BPM/WS - show me that caliber of player - I'll wait ..

so there isn't even a 2nd option to match Love, let alone a 3rd option... :eek: .. :confusedshrug: .. heck, Love's peak stats are easily better than any 1st option outside of Giannis - that's how stacked those Cavs were from 2015-2018

Again, the only actual talent deficit he overcame was 07' Detroit..
.

[brooks_thompson]

2018 vs. Pacers 1st round - could easily be argued yes, (that CLE overcame a talent deficit)
2018 vs. Raptors 2nd round - definite yes
2018 vs. Celtics 3rd round - yes, even with their Kyrie/Hayward injuries

So no, far from the only time.

That '18 team was atrocious. Lebron may have dogged it like no other in the regular season, but you gotta give him some credit for the postseason. Not too much, they weren't the greatest East challengers, but definitely a little for going through 3 in a row as what I would call the underdog.

[Mr Feeny]

:biggums:

He had the best teams when? 11-13 is probably it. 3 years.

Are you delusional?
Squad wise, he's had the best team for all but 5 playoff runs. During those 5 playoff runs, he only beat one team more talented than his. The 2007 Pistons. Because his teammates played tremendous defense to help the Cavs win despite Lebron' struggles from the field.

[Mr Feeny]

2018 vs. Pacers 1st round - could easily be argued yes, (that CLE overcame a talent deficit)
2018 vs. Raptors 2nd round - definite yes
2018 vs. Celtics 3rd round - yes, even with their Kyrie/Hayward injuries

So no, far from the only time.

That '18 team was atrocious. Lebron may have dogged it like no other in the regular season, but you gotta give him some credit for the postseason. Not too much, they weren't the greatest East challengers, but definitely a little for going through 3 in a row as what I would call the underdog.

The Cavs were more talented than any of those teams. By quite a bit, as well.

[Mr Feeny]

I know you weren't necessarily comparing, but


06' LEBRON - 4 seed.. lost in 6 to non-champs.. had 2x all-star center & all-D sidekick
89' JORDAN - 6 seed.. lost in 6 to the champs.. zero teammates having any accolades

Lost in 7 in 2006. They took Detroit to 7 games.

Lebron struggled in game 7 and had 1 point in the 2nd half but that isn't the point. They played them close.

[brooks_thompson]

The Cavs were more talented than any of those teams. By quite a bit, as well.

Agree to disagree. The Celts are probably arguable as well as the Pacers, but I think the Raptors were for sure a more talented team (minus their psychological block). Personally, after reviewing the rosters, I'm stickin to my guns.

[chains5000]

One could argue that 05' Hughes > Rip Hamilton
C'mon, not even you believe that

[Bronbron23]

Of course you would because the Warriors move the ball, which is more effective in the playoffs and conducive for good teammate contribution than Lebron/CP3-style ball-domination

ball movement has always gotten better looks for teammates than 1 guy dominating the ball in the half court... accordingly, skillsets that allow ball movement (Curry, MJ, Bird) will yield the best teams given equal casts, coaching smarts, and #1 option statistical output..

Any playground fool can get stats by dominating the ball, but it takes far superior skillset to get stats without dominating the ball (shooting, off-ball footwork/skill, instinct for quicker decisions), so the ball moves and teammates have the best opportunities to be real threats
.
In general this is true but not always. Chris Paul and harden took one of the best teams ever to 7 games in there prime. If cp3 was healthy and in his prime Houston wins that series in 6 or less.

And I wouldn't just take Klay and dray because they play smarter offensively I'd take them because they are a million times better defensively.

[Wally450]

Another one...

[ImKobe]

C'mon, not even you believe that

05 Hughes averaged 22/6/5 with 2.9 steals per game to Hamilton's 19/4/5 with 1 stl per game. You could definitely argue that Hughes was better that year. Hughes could have had the kind of success Rip did if he played in Detroit to be honest. Injuries derailed his career but he definitely had the talent to be a perennial all-star.

2007 Pistons are overrated. They weren't anywhere near as good as they were with Larry Brown and Ben Wallace. 2006 Pistons were more talented than the Cavs but it was pretty damn even in 2007, maybe even in Cavs' favor because Webber was essentially a role player. You replace Ben Wallace, who put up about the same amount of points with DPOY-level defense with Chris Webber, a has-been who struggled staying on the court due to injuries. He retired the next season.

[scuzzy]

05 Hughes averaged 22/6/5 with 2.9 steals per game to Hamilton's 19/4/5 with 1 stl per game. You could definitely argue that Hughes was better that year. Hughes could have had the kind of success Rip did if he played in Detroit to be honest. Injuries derailed his career but he definitely had the talent to be a perennial all-star.
Dwight averaged 22/14 in 2011, you can argue that Dwight could of had that success if he didn't play as a Laker. Injuries derailed his career but he definitely was a perennial all-star

[ImKobe]

Dwight averaged 22/14 in 2011, you can argue that Dwight could of had that success if he didn't play as a Laker. Injuries derailed his career but he definitely was a perennial all-star

Well, who are you comparing Howard to? Bynum was as good as Howard in 2012 but both were damaged goods by the end of the season. Lakers traded one injured player for another.

All 3Ball said was that you could argue that Hughes was better than Hamilton in 2005. I just gave you the argument.

Even with joining the Cavs and getting less touches, Hughes averaged 15/4/4 with 1.3 stls as a 2nd option to Hamilton's 20/4/4 stl as a 1st option in 2007. Cavs had a much better defense in 2007.

Hughes was a better defensive player and they were about equal on offense in 2005, all the numbers point in Larry's favor for 2005.

[scuzzy]

05 Hughes averaged 22/6/5 with 2.9 steals per game to Hamilton's 19/4/5 with 1 stl per game. You could definitely argue that Hughes was better that year. Hughes could have had the kind of success Rip did if he played in Detroit to be honest. Injuries derailed his career but he definitely had the talent to be a perennial all-star.

Odom averaged 18/10/4 in 2004, you can argue that Odom could of had that success if he didn't play as a Laker. Kobe derailed his career to the bench but he definitely had perennial all-star potential

[ImKobe]

Odom averaged 18/10/4 in 2004, you can argue that Odom could of had that success if he didn't play as a Laker. Kobe derailed his career to the bench but he definitely had perennial all-star potential

Kobe derailed his career? He went from 6MOY with arguably his best individual career season in 2011 to out of the league by 2013 without the Lakers. Kobe made Odom's career and looked out for him, when he got traded from LA he had no one to keep him in check and his life spiraled out of control.

[scuzzy]

05 Hughes averaged 22/6/5 with 2.9 steals per game to Hamilton's 19/4/5 with 1 stl per game. You could definitely argue that Hughes was better that year. Hughes could have had the kind of success Rip did if he played in Detroit to be honest. Injuries derailed his career but he definitely had the talent to be a perennial all-star.
Steve Nash averaged 17/11/4 in 2010, you can argue that Nash could of had more success if he didn't play as a Laker. Injuries derailed his career but he definitely was a perennial all-star

[ImKobe]

Steve Nash averaged 17/11/4 in 2010, you can argue that Nash could of had more success if he didn't play as a Laker. Injuries derailed his career but he definitely was a perennial all-star

Steve Nash was 38 at the start of the 2013 season, try again buddy.

[scuzzy]

05 Hughes averaged 22/6/5 with 2.9 steals per game to Hamilton's 19/4/5 with 1 stl per game. You could definitely argue that Hughes was better that year. Hughes could have had the kind of success Rip did if he played in Detroit to be honest. Injuries derailed his career but he definitely had the talent to be a perennial all-star.
D'angelo averaged 21/7/4 in 2018, you can argue that Russell could of had that success as a Laker if Kobe didn't stunt his career. Flourishing almost immediatly on the nets, he is definitely a perennial all-star.

[chains5000]

Hughes' stats made him look better than he was, specially when playing for the Wizards. He wasn't as bad as Lebron lovers pretend him to be though.

Hamilton was an All Star and a key offensive player for a winning team, Hughes was a tier below him IMO.

[chains5000]

D'angelo averaged 21/7/4 in 2018, you can argue that Russell could of had that success as a Laker if Kobe didn't stunt his career. Flourishing almost immediatly on the nets, he is definitely a perennial all-star.
Don't blame kobe, it's a matter of maturity and experience.

[ImKobe]

D'angelo averaged 21/7/4 in 2018, you can argue that Russell could of had that success as a Laker if Kobe didn't stunt his career. Flourishing almost immediatly on the nets, he is definitely a perennial all-star.

D'Angelo was a rookie on the Lakers during Kobe's last year and his 2nd season was pretty identical despite Kobe "stunting his career" in 2016. Of course he gets better with age like every other star player in the league.

He didn't "flourish almost immediately on the Nets", his 3rd season was also on par with his first and second season with the Lakers, in fact he shot worse and had a worse AST-TO ratio his first season in Brooklyn compared to the season before on the Lakers.

At least you tried.

[scuzzy]

05 Hughes averaged 22/6/5 with 2.9 steals per game to Hamilton's 19/4/5 with 1 stl per game. You could definitely argue that Hughes was better that year. Hughes could have had the kind of success Rip did if he played in Detroit to be honest. Injuries derailed his career but he definitely had the talent to be a perennial all-star.
Randle averaged 22/9/3 in 2019, you can argue that Julius could of had that success as a Laker if Kobe didn't stunt his career. Flourishing almost immediatly the year after Bryant retired, he is definitely an upcoming perennial all-star.

[ImKobe]

Randle averaged 22/9/3 in 2019, you can argue that Julius could of had that success as a Laker if Kobe didn't stunt his career. Flourishing almost immediatly the year after Bryant retired, he is definitely an upcoming perennial all-star.

Pretty much the same situation as Russell. He played 1 full season with Kobe, coming off a season-ending injury that forced him to sit out his rookie season in 2015. Of course he got better with age as most star players do.

[scuzzy]

05 Hughes averaged 22/6/5 with 2.9 steals per game to Hamilton's 19/4/5 with 1 stl per game. You could definitely argue that Hughes was better that year. Hughes could have had the kind of success Rip did if he played in Detroit to be honest. Injuries derailed his career but he definitely had the talent to be a perennial all-star.
Lou averaged 23/5 in 2018, you can argue that Williams could of had that success as a Laker if Kobe chuck 17 shots per game on a 35% clip in 2016. Lou flourishing immediatly as a Clipper, he is definitely another 6moty with All-Star perennial potential

[LAmbruh]

wait so Kobe got locked up in 2004 Finals by a worse defender than Larry Hughes?


:yaohappy:

[superduper]

It's hilarious how insecure Bran stans are of Kobe. You'd think he was in contension for top 3 all time the volume at which they talk about him tbh :oldlol:

[bullettooth]

History is already killing LeBron's legacy. He hasn't even retired yet and already he's being exposed for being GREATLY overrated.

[Bankaii]

Are you delusional?
Squad wise, he's had the best team for all but 5 playoff runs. During those 5 playoff runs, he only beat one team more talented than his. The 2007 Pistons. Because his teammates played tremendous defense to help the Cavs win despite Lebron' struggles from the field.
There's no way you're this dumb.

[Mr Feeny]

There's no way you're this dumb.

If you think otherwise, then that's exactly what you are.

[RRR3]

LeBron had the most talented team in 17 and 18 now lmao

At absolute best you could claim he had the most talented team from 11-16. That’s not “more than half his career”.



Feeny :facepalm

[3ball]

Lost in 7 in 2006. They took Detroit to 7 games.

Lebron struggled in game 7 and had 1 point in the 2nd half but that isn't the point. They played them close.


Again, not that you're comparing....

But in 2005, Zydrunas was a 17/9 all-star with 2.3 blocks, and Larry Hughes was the NBA steals leader and a 22/5/5 1st team defender

^^^ MJ didn't have anyone of this caliber in 1989 and arguably 1990, yet he took a peak champion 6 and 7 games, while Lebron took a conference finals loser on the downside 7 games

And the stats below show that 06' Lebron was producing less than 89' and 90' MJ, so the Cavs' overall cast was making this up, in addition to the opponent being weaker than the peak champion Bad Boys:

JORDAN 89' ECF...... 29.7.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.5%.. 56.1 ts.. 112 ortg . 21.4 gmsc
JORDAN 90' ECF...... 32.1.. 7.1.. 6.3.. 46.7%.. 56.6 ts.. 117 ortg . 24.8 gmsc
LEBRON 06' ECSF.....26.6.. 8.6.. 6.0.. 44.2%.. 51.6 ts.. 102 ortg . 17.8 gmsc


Lebron's stats in the 08' ECSF are even worse (26 on 35%), which shows how much his cast was helping him
.

[ImKobe]

Lou averaged 23/5 in 2018, you can argue that Williams could of had that success as a Laker if Kobe chuck 17 shots per game on a 35% clip in 2016. Lou flourishing immediatly as a Clipper, he is definitely another 6moty with All-Star perennial potential

Here we go again

Lou in Toronto (14-15) - 16/2/2 56.4%TS
Lou in LA (15-16) - 15/3/3 58.4%TS

He was as good as usual playing with Kobe as he had been leading up to that point and that's with him getting injured and missing time in 2016. His 58.4%TS for the 2016 season was actually his career high at that point, which he broke the next season when mostly playing as a Laker as well.

He didn't flourish "immediately as a Clipper". He was first traded to the Rockets, where his production dipped to 15/3/2 on 54.7%TS. He's played more minutes/scored at a higher volume as a Clipper, but he's never been as efficient as he was on the Lakers in 2016 and 2017.

[RRR3]

Here we go again

Lou in Toronto (14-15) - 16/2/2 56.4%TS
Lou in LA (15-16) - 15/3/3 58.4%TS

He was as good as usual playing with Kobe as he had been leading up to that point and that's with him getting injured and missing time in 2016. His 58.4%TS for the 2016 season was actually his career high at that point, which he broke the next season when mostly playing as a Laker as well.

He didn't flourish "immediately as a Clipper". He was first traded to the Rockets, where his production dipped to 15/3/2 on 54.7%TS. He's played more minutes/scored at a higher volume as a Clipper, but he's never been as efficient as he was on the Lakers in 2016 and 2017.
22.2 PTS per 36 in 15
19.4 in 16

[ImKobe]

22.2 PTS per 36 in 15
19.4 in 16


Took more shots per minute in Toronto, took slightly less/passed more and had his career-high TS% in LA. Either way he was the same with Kobe as he had been prior in his career so scuzzy took another L.

[RRR3]

He had his career high TS% the year Kobe was first retired.

Nice spin job doe.

Do you actually think 16 Kobe wasn’t one of the worst players in the league? :yaohappy:

[ImKobe]

[QUOTE=RRR3]He had his career high TS% the year Kobe was first retired.

Nice spin job doe.

Do you actually think 16 Kobe wasn

[RRR3]

OBPM year before Kobe: 4.0

With Kobe: 3.0

Year after: 3.7



Hmm

[ImKobe]

OBPM year before Kobe: 4.0

With Kobe: 3.0

Year after: 3.7



Hmm

Ok? He had a 3.1 OBPM this season with a 55.4%TS.

[RRR3]

Ok? He had a 3.1 OBPM this season with a 55.4%TS.
He’s like 33.

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


- From 2011-2014, the Heat's main victories were the young Thunder (inferior to prime lebron/wade/bosh), and the 13' Spurs (not better than the heat's 4 HOF lebron/wade/bosh/allen)

- From 15-18', the Cavs' main victory was the 16' Finals, where Lebron's 2nd option demolished the Warriors' 1st option, so lebron only had to outplay klay

Conclusion: the 07' Pistons are the only team with greater talent that Lebron beat

[Turbo Slayer]

.
Thread Cliffs


- From 2011-2014, the Heat's main victories were the young Thunder (inferior to prime lebron/wade/bosh), and the 13' Spurs (not better than the heat's 4 HOF lebron/wade/bosh/allen)

- From 15-18', the Cavs' main victory was the 16' Finals, where Lebron's 2nd option demolished the Warriors' 1st option, so lebron only had to outplay klay

Conclusion: the 07' Pistons are the only team with greater talent that Lebron beat

u hating on lebron

I challenge you 3ball, to say something good about LBJ.

[3ball]

u hating on lebron

I challenge you 3ball, to say something good about LBJ.
Nah, he ruined the game

And do you realize that he would be borderline top 10 if Durant hadn't gotten hurt and won 2 more rings?

With 4 rings, there would be pressure to rank Durant and Lebron together, which would mean no more top 3 for Lebron.. both KD and lebron would've been labeled borderline top 10

But it's okay because kawhi will do the same thing in 2021 when he gets to 4 rings and 4 fmvp

[Mr Feeny]

[QUOTE=RRR3]LeBron had the most talented team in 17 and 18 now lmao

At absolute best you could claim he had the most talented team from 11-16. That

[ImKobe]

Nah, he ruined the game

And do you realize that he would be borderline top 10 if Durant hadn't gotten hurt and won 2 more rings?

With 4 rings, there would be pressure to rank Durant and Lebron together, which would mean no more top 3 for Lebron.. both KD and lebron would've been labeled borderline top 10

But it's okay because kawhi will do the same thing in 2021 when he gets to 4 rings and 4 fmvp

Agreed on this. How would Bron look if KD didn't get injured and 3-Peated? How meaningless would Lebron's 9 Finals become if another player 3-peated with 3 FMVPs in his era?

But now we have another possible scenario. Kawhi is primed to win at least one more ring and FMVP and Durant is young enough to still get his 3rd once he fully recovers. Would Lebron's 3 rings in 9 Finals be seen as impressive at all if two others guys at his position win the same amount with just one Finals loss to their name vs. his 6? "But but he got to 9 Finals! :mad: ". Yeah, while playing in the weakest Conference since the 80s West.