[The Truth About..] Mj's Comp

[sdot_thadon]

I guess with the offseason ending soon it's time to dump this info into the wild. I dread making this thread but, I've had a few posters get at me for saying Mj more times than not enjoyed a talent advantage throughout his title runs. This will become a growing data list over time perhaps. Let's take a look at some interesting facts surrounding Michael Jordan's comp:


In his 6 finals runs, of those 24 series the following occured:


[B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]ALLSTARS

[LAmbruh]

Damn, this is what you call a OC 5* banger :applause:

Great use of color coordinating and summarizing synopsis at the end

Bookmarked and saved

Take notes 3ball

[AlternativeAcc.]

http://www.uflib.ufl.edu/ufcc/UFCC2004/images/cake_for_web.jpg


90's :roll:

[LAmbruh]

Also if you don't mind me asking, can I use the OP to start a hot debate over in RGM and /r/nba


Thanks in advance

[sdot_thadon]

Also if you don't mind me asking, can I use the OP to start a hot debate over in RGM and /r/nba


Thanks in advance
It was probably better suited for those places anyway. Have fun.:cheers:

[Manny98]

5* nothing but unbiased facts :applause:

3ball is not going to like this though :oldlol:

[LAmbruh]

It was probably better suited for those places anyway. Have fun.:cheers:
I'll reference your OP and reward you internet clout

[NBAGOAT]

thought you go a little more in depth but using accolades was a good idea to get rid of subjectivity

[FromDowntown]

Damn, this is what you call a OC 5* banger :applause:

Great use of color coordinating and summarizing synopsis at the end

Bookmarked and saved

Take notes 3ball


+1

This post is astounding, nice work to TS. This should hopefully keep that 3ball guy quite for a while. I'm not so sure most didnt know Jordan was playing against very weak opposition but it never hurts to highlight and drive a stake deeper into the hearts of Jordan fans round the world.

[FromDowntown]

http://www.uflib.ufl.edu/ufcc/UFCC2004/images/cake_for_web.jpg


90's :roll:


Oh boy them are fightin' words! This whole entire thread is a blow to Jordans fragile 'legacy' if we can call it that

[RealSkipBayless]

Can 3ball muster a response?

[3ball]

Comp doh



- Same stats apply to Lebron, and Lebron only overcame 1 talent deficit (2007)

- MJ overcame more talent deficits.. and bigger ones



1) 1989 - the #10 SRS Bulls with 1 all-star beat the #1 SRS team with 3 all-star plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper

2) MJ/Pippen beat 3 HOF's Isiah/Dumars/Rodman and 2 more 3x all-stars (laimberr/aguirre)

3) MJ beat Ewing's superior team and casts in 1989


^^^ those are the documented ones, but the reality is that MJ beat more talented teams in about half his playoff series, including all the Finals from the first 3-peat






Jordan beat no one

LeBron beat the cream of the crop


^^^ No he didn't - he lost to them, usually with super-teams of his own

Everyone knows that his "not 6, not 7" Heat had the most talent in the league from 2011-2014, and his 2016 Cavs saw their 2nd option demolish the Warriors' 1st option...

In other words, it's his opponents that can complain about facing talent deficits to his colluded, stacked deck teams

Ultimately, Lebron had Big 3's and only faced a talent deficit in 07', 15', and 18'...

17' is debatable and the goat is supposed to make up for differences anyway - the fact that he never did shows he isn't the goat.. the only talent deficit he overcame was the 2007 ECF, and MJ overcame much bigger talent deficits then that - let me know if you need me to specify with all the relevant stats and proof



Jordan beat no one

LeBron beat the cream of the crop

Take notes
Facing great teams is no excuse for not having a great team yourself that can compete EVENLY - but Lebron is 2-5 against the best teams of the era (Spurs/Warriors), so Lebron failed to compete at an elite standard (let alone a goat standard)
.

[Turbo Slayer]

Facing great teams is no excuse for not having a great team yourself that can compete EVENLY - but Lebron is 2-5 against the best teams of the era (Spurs/Warriors), so Lebron failed to compete at an elite standard (let alone a goat standard)
.

Bruh. You serious????? 2-5. Its 3-6. :facepalm

Lebron is the 2nd GOAT!!!!!!!

WE WINNING THIS WAR BOIS!!

:hammertime: :yaohappy:

[3ball]

Bruh. You serious????? 2-5. Its 3-6. :facepalm

Lebron is the 2nd GOAT!!!!!!!

WE WINNING THIS WAR BOIS!!

:hammertime: :yaohappy:
By Lebron's own goat criteria (overcoming talent deficits), Lebron isn't top 10 and Dirk's 2011 is top 3

The only talent deficit Lebron overcame was 2007 ECF, and he only averaged 25 ppg on 45% in that series... Super weak

[egokiller]

Any attempt to diminish MJ's comp is negated by the fact that Lebron's comp was so bad it enabled him to be in the finals 8 times in a row. :roll:

What's sad is that despite that, all he could do was manage 3 rings, 2 of which were the direct result of 2 of the greatest shots in the history of the NBA by teammates.

:sleeping

Another one.

That was too easy.

[SpaceJam]

No mention of Bron until the MJ fan boys showed up. Same dudes who say they aren

[SouBeachTalents]

[QUOTE=SpaceJam]No mention of Bron until the MJ fan boys showed up. Same dudes who say they aren

[SpaceJam]

OP's post had literally nothing to do with LeBron, didn't even reference him. Ditto the next 10 responses. Only until 3ball chimes is does LeBron get mentioned.

But nah, he ain't threatened by LeBron :oldlol:

OP just presented the facts, we all interpret it however we feel. Very telling that 3ball

[3ball]

OP's post had literally nothing to do with LeBron, didn't even reference him. Ditto the next 10 responses. Only until 3ball chimes is does LeBron get mentioned.

But nah, he ain't threatened by LeBron :oldlol:
The only reason people make threads like these is to boost Lebron

So im keeping it real, while you guys are being fake deflecting the points being made

Lebron lost many times with:

1) multiple all-star teammates
2) 1 and 2 seed
3) homecourt
4) by record amount
5) via 4-0 sweep
6) with 27 from Wade and 29 from Kyrie


MJ never lost with this stuff because that's ridiculously below the goat standard..

the most help from pippen that MJ lost with was 19 on 40% in the 95' ECSF (baseball yr).. the most pippen-help that he lost with outside of baseball year was10 ppg in the 88' and 89' PO
.

[scuzzy]

5* mega post OP


well done, savor the tears

[LAmbruh]

didn't take long for 3brick n straigh_altin to soil those diapers


somebody call their caretaker

[AirBonner]

3ball loading up on adderall and caffeine. Another sleepless night. We win :oldlol: :applause:

[sdot_thadon]

thought you go a little more in depth but using accolades was a good idea to get rid of subjectivity
I admit it's a bit ham fisted, but purposely so. Allstar teammates seem to be the go to account of teammates in all the debates here so I kept it simple despite considering way more categories. Most posters here don't do nuance well, and this wont resonate with everyone here but it paints a fair enough picture imo. I have most of the Srs and net rating done, What else would you like to see added to the data?

[sdot_thadon]

- Snip
.
Lebron?:biggums: Let's try to stay on subject pal.


Any attempt to diminish MJ's comp
By supplying info of what actually occured?

[3ball]

3ball loading up on adderall and caffeine. Another sleepless night. We win :oldlol: :applause:
OP's data shows that MJ faced an opponent with equal or more all-stars 66.7% of the time... :eek: ... :bowdown:

That's what happens when you win 6 rings with only 1 all-star teammate, while everyone in history needed more all-star teammates to win... :bowdown:

Thank you OP

[LostCause]

It's a cool measure if you're judging a teams strength by all-star appearances by players on the roster, though personally I never bought into that saying much

SRS would be better, or something like rORTG and rDRTG to show how strong the competition was. For example, looking at say, the 2013 Pacers who had the #1 defense in the league that season, their rDRTG was -6.1, which is good, but not great historically. Great would be -7.0, Historic/ATG would be anything -8.0 and better

For example, the Knicks of 93 posted an rDRTG of -8.3, which puts them into the Historic/ATG tier (That team only had 1 All-Star so it would appear in the OP as one of the weaker opponents, but clearly, that's far from the case here)

It's a lot more work doing something like that but I dont think it's really been done before and it'll paint probably the clearest picture free of things like era bias since rORTG and rDRTG are relative. You calculate it simply by comparing the teams ORTG or DRTG to the league average. So if we wanted to find the 2017 Warriors rORTG, we'd get their ORTG which was 115.6 and then find the league average ORTG, which was 108.8 (You can find this under the Season Summary beneath the Misc tab). The difference is 6.8, and because it's OVER league average that would look like this: +6.8 rORTG. In the case of defense you want it to be below league average, so it would have a - instead of a plus for the difference

I'm not sure what the historic levels are for rORTG however. That Warriors team had one of the best all time so the "great" tier may be that +6.0 area. To confirm I'll do the 92 Bulls. Their ORTG was 115.5. League average was 108.2. That makes an rORTG of +7.3, so better than the Warriors though if you round they both come out to +7. So I suppose +7 would be Historic/ATG tier for rORTG (For anyone curious, the 96 Bulls were +7.6 and the 16 Warriors were +8.1, which is pretty insane and shows how dominant they were that season) I don't think any other team crossed the +8.0 threshold for rORTG

[Akeem34TheDream]

Bulls were stacked. Nothing new.

[3ball]

Bulls were stacked. Nothing new.



MJ had the least all-star help:


All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 2
Love 3
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
6 players, 15 appearances = 2/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals




But carry on with your delusion. Ur a dumb Lebron stan that ignores reality (your guy is a loser that couldn't win without teaming up with the best talent every few years, and he STILL mostly lost, 3/9)

[brutalBBQ]

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]
[B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]ALLSTARS

[3ball]

This is arguably the only comparison that matters, 1 equal, one less and 4 the same. So equal with All star caliber competition.

Why don't you post LeBrons stats from this category for comparison :oldlol:
Exactly, OP's data shows that MJ faced an opponent with equal or more all-stars in the vast majority of series that he played!!

That's what happens when you win 6 rings with only 1 all-star teammate, while everyone in history needed more all-star teammates to win (i.e. Kareem needed 9 all-star teammates to win 6)

MJ won the he most with the least all-star help ever... :bowdown:... Thank you OP

[Jameerthefear]

Just shared this with some buddies... their minds are blown. I think I've redpilled them on Jordan now.

[egokiller]

3ball wins again

[Hey Yo]

MJ had the least all-star help:


All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 2
Love 3
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
6 players, 15 appearances = 2/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals




But carry on with your delusion. Ur a dumb Lebron stan that ignores reality (your guy is a loser that couldn't win without teaming up with the best talent every few years, and he STILL mostly lost, 3/9)
First stat check I do and of course, you fudged the numbers as usual.

K. Love only had 2 All-star appearances with LeBron, not 3.

[ImKobe]

First stat check I do and of course, you fudged the numbers as usual.

K. Love only had 2 All-star appearances with LeBron, not 3.

Doesn't matter, his argument is still valid :facepalm .

[sdot_thadon]

OP's data shows that MJ faced an opponent with equal or more all-stars 66.7% of the time... :eek: ... :bowdown:

That's what happens when you win 6 rings with only 1 all-star teammate, while everyone in history needed more all-star teammates to win... :bowdown:

Thank you OP
No so fast trainwreck. I left notes about exactly what equal can mean here as having Scottie Pippen = To Hersey Hawkins is not ideal. I did the data dry so it wouldn't have bias, but any sane person who saw the same info i saw to compile the data would think equal meant the same thing as having more talent in MJ's case. Because his "equal" allstar most times was also all NBA and all defensive and the other guys weren't always that level. So with maybe just a grain of bias this thing gets far worse. You should quit while you're ahead. What's incredibly eye popping is how rarely Mj faced a team that had more.

[Hey Yo]

Doesn't matter, his argument is still valid :facepalm .
In this circumstance, when you're blatantly trying to make a teammate look better than he was (like you do with Kobe) it matters.

[sdot_thadon]

It's a cool measure if you're judging a teams strength by all-star appearances by players on the roster, though personally I never bought into that saying much

SRS would be better, or something like rORTG and rDRTG to show how strong the competition was. For example, looking at say, the 2013 Pacers who had the #1 defense in the league that season, their rDRTG was -6.1, which is good, but not great historically. Great would be -7.0, Historic/ATG would be anything -8.0 and better

For example, the Knicks of 93 posted an rDRTG of -8.3, which puts them into the Historic/ATG tier (That team only had 1 All-Star so it would appear in the OP as one of the weaker opponents, but clearly, that's far from the case here)

It's a lot more work doing something like that but I dont think it's really been done before and it'll paint probably the clearest picture free of things like era bias since rORTG and rDRTG are relative. You calculate it simply by comparing the teams ORTG or DRTG to the league average. So if we wanted to find the 2017 Warriors rORTG, we'd get their ORTG which was 115.6 and then find the league average ORTG, which was 108.8 (You can find this under the Season Summary beneath the Misc tab). The difference is 6.8, and because it's OVER league average that would look like this: +6.8 rORTG. In the case of defense you want it to be below league average, so it would have a - instead of a plus for the difference

I'm not sure what the historic levels are for rORTG however. That Warriors team had one of the best all time so the "great" tier may be that +6.0 area. To confirm I'll do the 92 Bulls. Their ORTG was 115.5. League average was 108.2. That makes an rORTG of +7.3, so better than the Warriors though if you round they both come out to +7. So I suppose +7 would be Historic/ATG tier for rORTG (For anyone curious, the 96 Bulls were +7.6 and the 16 Warriors were +8.1, which is pretty insane and shows how dominant they were that season) I don't think any other team crossed the +8.0 threshold for rORTG
The reason I looked into this was in a thread a few months back I made a post stating Mj had the better talent more often than not during the runs and had guys looking at me stupid , so I eventually over time verified what I remembered to be true. And unfortunately that basic level of analysis is what pretty much drives debates here. I don't buy into allstars on the roster much either, it's the reason I have all nba and defensive teams noted because they are a stronger indicator imo. But if you watched back then this isn't for you, because you already know what Pippen was in the 90s. This is for the guys who can't see past MJ's brilliance and denigrate the guys around him.

Ido have srs and net ratings mostly complete, and in 93 the Knicks were close in both(less than a half point difference) but the Bulls still had the edge.

[Hey Yo]

Other than Payton in 96, how may DPOY (or runner-up DPOY) has MJ faced in the Finals?

[Vino24]

Other than Payton in 96, how may DPOY (or runner-up DPOY) has MJ faced in the Finals?
Does finals practice count? (Pippen) :lol

[Rico2016]

This thread is a banger

Would read again

[LostCause]

Other than Payton in 96, how may DPOY (or runner-up DPOY) has MJ faced in the Finals?

How often do DPOY's make the Finals even?

Seems like a pretty random and useless criteria. I mean if a DPOY's team didn't make the Finals, what does that say?

[And1AllDay]

How often do DPOY's make the Finals even?

Seems like a pretty random and useless criteria. I mean if a DPOY's team didn't make the Finals, what does that say?

mike faced cupcakes

dont you get it?

what was his best finals win?

ill wait

[SamuraiSWISH]

Any attempt to diminish MJ's comp is negated by the fact that Lebron's comp was so bad it enabled him to be in the finals 8 times in a row. :roll:

What's sad is that despite that, all he could do was manage 3 rings, 2 of which were the direct result of 2 of the greatest shots in the history of the NBA by teammates.

:sleeping

Another one.

That was too easy.
Deandre Jordan

[Mr Feeny]

Other than Payton in 96, how may DPOY (or runner-up DPOY) has MJ faced in the Finals?

What difference does it make when he was facing them before the finals?

Moreover what kind of dumb point is that? Unless the DPOY in question is your direct matchup, I doesn't matter. Lebron in 2008 wasn't matched up with Garnett when he stunk up the joint against Boston. He was held to 35% by Paul Pierce, a nothing defender.

[Mr Feeny]

The reason I looked into this was in a thread a few months back I made a post stating Mj had the better talent more often than not during the runs and had guys looking at me stupid , so I eventually over time verified what I remembered to be true. And unfortunately that basic level of analysis is what pretty much drives debates here. I don't buy into allstars on the roster much either, it's the reason I have all nba and defensive teams noted because they are a stronger indicator imo. But if you watched back then this isn't for you, because you already know what Pippen was in the 90s. This is for the guys who can't see past MJ's brilliance and denigrate the guys around him.

Ido have srs and net ratings mostly complete, and in 93 the Knicks were close in both(less than a half point difference) but the Bulls still had the edge.

Of all the delusional Lebron stans, you're right up there. I'm sure Scottie freaking Pippen and Toni Kukoc were better than Dwayne wade, Chris Bosh, Kyrie, and Kevin Love.

How stupid are you, exactly?

[sdot_thadon]

Of all the delusional Lebron stans, you're right up there. I'm sure Scottie freaking Pippen and Toni Kukoc were better than Dwayne wade, Chris Bosh, Kyrie, and Kevin Love.

How stupid are you, exactly?
I guess not as smart as the genius attempting an argument about Lebron and teammates in a thread about comp, MJ's comp to be exact? :oldlol:

If you're not in here to discuss the topic kindly **** off, have a nice day.:no:

[Manny98]

Sdot slaying Jordan stans on the regular :applause:

[305Baller]

Jordan cannot compete with the roids.

Bron the goat

[Mr Feeny]

I guess not as smart as the genius attempting an argument about Lebron and teammates in a thread about comp, MJ's comp to be exact? :oldlol:

If you're not in here to discuss the topic kindly **** off, have a nice day.:no:

Only responding to your comment, numbnuts. And this is a forum. If I see a stupid post by a kid who knows nothing about basketball, I'm going to ridicule it everytime.

Go cry somewhere else it you don't like that.

[sdot_thadon]

Only responding to your comment, numbnuts. And this is a forum. If I see a stupid post by a kid who knows nothing about basketball, I'm going to ridicule it everytime.

Go cry somewhere else it you don't like that.
My best advice to your perpetually grouchy ass: speak when spoken to pimp. But since you decided to post here, do you have anything to add to the discussion or are you just here playing the sour grapes role as usual?

[Mr Feeny]

My best advice to your perpetually grouchy ass: speak when spoken to pimp. But since you decided to post here, do you have anything to add to the discussion or are you just here playing the sour grapes role as usual?

That grammar and punctuation there from a kid who's trying to sound smart:oldlol:
Stick to telling us about how Bill Wenningtin is better than Dwayne Wade.

[sdot_thadon]

That grammar and punctuation there from a kid who's trying to sound smart:oldlol:
Stick to telling us about how Bill Wenningtin is better than Dwayne Wade.
Grammar is the last resort for a man with no legs to stand on, "kid". You pretty much are useless here, a waste of keystrokes. You add zero to pretty much any thread you enter and basically consist of trying to attack anything but the topic. Whenever you have a post that's relevant to the topic we'll celebrate because it will be your 1st, you can do it slugger. I'm cheering for you.:applause:

[Mr Feeny]

Grammar is the last resort for a man with no legs to stand on, "kid". You pretty much are useless here, a waste of keystrokes. You add zero to pretty much any thread you enter and basically consist of trying to attack anything but the topic. Whenever you have a post that's relevant to the topic we'll celebrate because it will be your 1st, you can do it slugger. I'm cheering for you.:applause:

Ah here we go. A continuation of the meltdown by a Lebron kid who wants to convince us that bill Wennington is better than Scottie Pippen. This was too easy.

[RealSkipBayless]

This is getting pretty good.

Can someone get AJ to start posting now that Feeny is on? :lol

[SpaceJam2]

Sdot slaying Jordan stans on the regular :applause:


Baaaanng!

[RealSkipBayless]

Never forget :eek:

[SpaceJam]

Niceeeeee

[AirBonner]

truth :eek:

[And1AllDay]

wrekt

[And1AllDay]

mike faced cupcakes

dont you get it?

what was his best finals win?

ill wait

any body?

[ArbitraryWater]

what the **** happened to some posts here are jeff fiddled with the board?

The OP was very extensive

does anyone have the post?

[NBAGOAT]

The reason I looked into this was in a thread a few months back I made a post stating Mj had the better talent more often than not during the runs and had guys looking at me stupid , so I eventually over time verified what I remembered to be true. And unfortunately that basic level of analysis is what pretty much drives debates here. I don't buy into allstars on the roster much either, it's the reason I have all nba and defensive teams noted because they are a stronger indicator imo. But if you watched back then this isn't for you, because you already know what Pippen was in the 90s. This is for the guys who can't see past MJ's brilliance and denigrate the guys around him.

Ido have srs and net ratings mostly complete, and in 93 the Knicks were close in both(less than a half point difference) but the Bulls still had the edge.

i'll start up the convo again and hopefully you and lost reply. as you said using talent cup comparison is flawed by maybe the best for this forum. 97 sonics had 3 all stars while the bulls and jazz had 2. Problem is the gap between mj/malone and kemp is way bigger than hornacek/rodman vs detlef. guys can get overvalued because of name recognition. You would think 97 rockets would be head and shoulders above anyone else with hakeem/barkley/drexler but anyone who watched knew they werent.

Using rortg and rdrtg is one of the better measures and far better than the "talent cup" comparison but on this forum there are some problems. people love saying the rs doesnt matter and there's some truth to that with talented experienced teams coasting during the RS.

[insidious301]

So where is the argument? Or truth for that matter? We do know that Jordan played during the "Golden age" for centers and against teams who all had their unique style(unlike today's three-point conformists). That era and its rules allowed you to play defense too.

[ArbitraryWater]

So where is the argument? Or truth for that matter? We do know that Jordan played during the "Golden age" for centers and against teams who all had their unique style(unlike today's three-point conformists). That era and its rules allowed you to play defense too.

Like I said, Jeff fiddling with forum fcked up many posts