Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

[3ball]

.
1990-1999


Hill RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hillgr01.html#1995-2000-sum:per_game)................. 20.7.. 8.1.. 6.5.. 47.2%
Hill PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hillgr01.html#1995-2000-sum:playoffs_per_game)................. 20.9.. 7.1.. 5.8.. 46.6%

Dominique RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wilkido01.html#1990-1999-sum:per_game)..... 23.5.. 6.6.. 2.6.. 45.4%
Dominique PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wilkido01.html#1991-1999-sum:playoffs_per_game)..... 20.9.. 7.0.. 2.3.. 40.5%

Worthy RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/worthja01.html#1990-1994-sum:per_game)........... 17.2.. 4.2.. 3.3.. 47.5%
Worthy PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/worthja01.html#1990-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game)........... 20.8.. 4.4.. 3.4.. 46.2%

Drexler RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drexlcl01.html#1990-1998-sum:per_game)........... 20.9.. 6.4.. 5.7.. 45.6%
Drexler PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drexlcl01.html#1990-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game)........... 21.0.. 7.1.. 6.1.. 45.0%

Penny RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardaan01.html#1994-1999-sum:per_game)............ 19.0.. 4.7.. 6.3.. 47.2%
Penny PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardaan01.html#1994-1999-sum:playoffs_per_game)............ 21.8.. 4.7.. 6.5.. 45.8%.. outplayed Pippen in 95' and 96' playoffs

V Baker RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bakervi01.html#1994-1999-sum:per_game).......... 18.1.. 9.0.. 2.5.. 50.0%

Bird RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html#1990-1992-sum:per_game)................. 21.6.. 9.2.. 7.2.. 46.6%
Bird PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html#1990-1992-sum:playoffs_per_game)................ 17.8.. 7.2.. 6.8.. 43.3%

Mullin RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mullich01.html#1990-1999-sum:per_game).............. 19.0.. 4.6.. 3.6.. 51.5%
Mullin PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mullich01.html#1991-1994-sum:playoffs_per_game)*............ 22.5.. 5.6.. 3.1.. 51.4%

Pippen RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1999-sum:per_game)............. 19.2.. 7.2.. 5.9.. 48.1%
Pippen PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1999-sum:playoffs_per_game)............. 19.1.. 7.9.. 5.5.. 44.4%


^^^ Pippen doesn't stand out, and it's infact Bird, Dominique, and Hill that stand out from everyone else.

And here's a couple combo forwards that were better than Pippen:


D Coleman RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/colemde01.html#1991-1999-sum:per_game)....... 18.8.. 10.0.. 3.0.. 44.9%
D Coleman PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/colemde01.html#1992-1994-sum:playoffs_per_game)....... 24.7.. 13.0.. 4.2.. 47.9%

Kemp RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kempsh01.html#1991-1999-sum:per_game)............... 17.9.. 10.2.. 2.1.. 50.9%
Kemp PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kempsh01.html#1991-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game)............... 19.0.. 10.6.. 2.1.. 50.2%

- Plus Barkley was better - he was often a SF on the all-nba 1st team across from PF Malone

* Mullin's 3 years as a playoff starter were used
.

[superduper]

Bu-buh top 3 :roll:

[90sgoat]

Pippen was only a top 3 small forward for a few years after Bird retired and Worthy, Drexler and Nique got old. Anyone who watched Bulls vs Magic in the finals would know Worthy was for sure the better player.

Then Pippen got pushed off again with Penny and Hill, who no doubt, were far superior players and much bigger names.

[Manny98]

So Pippen put up similar numbers on offense despite being a second option his entire career so his numbers would be even better if he had the opportunity to play as a 1st option his entire career like Drexler and Hill whilst playing better defense than all of those Small towards combined :eek:

Pippen was EASILY the best small forward of the 90s, probably the second best non bigman of the entire era :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Reggie43]

Coleman, Baker and Kemp played SF?? Penny atleast could switch to the position but we all know he mostly played the combo guard spot.

[bigkingsfan]

Pippen has more defensive awards than all those players combined. Any of those guys even make a team?

[3ball]

So Pippen put up similar numbers on offense despite being a second option his entire career so his numbers would be even better if he had the opportunity to play as a 1st option his entire career like Drexler and Hill whilst playing better defense than all of those Small towards combined :eek:

Pippen was EASILY the best small forward of the 90s, probably the second best non bigman of the entire era :bowdown: :bowdown:


Why would you bring up 1st option stats???... it's common knowledge that Pippen doesn't compare to Dominique, Clyde, Worthy or Bird as a 1st option dude... Clyde led his team to the Finals twice, while averaging 26 ppg against the 90' Bad Boys and 92' MJ... Dominique averaged 30 in 1993... And you know Pippen can't touch Bird.

regardless, Pippen played to capacity next to MJ, so your theory doesn't work anyway.. His best raw production alongside Mike (21.0 and 7.0 apg) was better than his best without him (22.0 and 5.6 apg)

ultimately, the stats tell the story - during the first 3-peat, pippen was inferior to Bird, Dominique, and Mullin... During the 2nd three-peat, he was inferior to Hill and Penny... Meanwhile, Clyde was a far better as a 1st option, and his 95' run at 2nd option was better than pippen's career at 2nd option

[Manny98]

Why would you bring up 1st option stats???... it's common knowledge that Pippen doesn't compare to Dominique, Clyde, Worthy or Bird as a 1st option dude... Clyde led his team to the Finals twice, while averaging 26 ppg against the 90' Bad Boys and 92' MJ... Dominique averaged 30 in 1993... And you know Pippen can't touch Bird.

regardless, Pippen played to capacity next to MJ, so your theory doesn't work anyway.. His best raw production alongside Mike (21.0 and 7.0 apg) was better than his best without him (22.0 and 5.6 apg)

ultimately, the stats tell the story - during the first 3-peat, pippen was inferior to Bird, Dominique, and Mullin... During the 2nd three-peat, he was inferior to Hill and Penny... Meanwhile, Clyde was a far better as a 1st option, and his 95' run at 2nd option was better than pippen's career at 2nd option
Ok but that doesn't change the fact that Pippens 21/7 averages are better than anyone you just listed especially when you take into account Pippen being a better defender than all of them combined :oldlol:

Seriously how many players in history can get you 21/7/7 with elite defense like prime Pippen? He truly was a one of a kind player :bowdown:

[Hey Yo]

Why would you bring up 1st option stats???... it's common knowledge that Pippen doesn't compare to Dominique, Clyde, Worthy or Bird as a 1st option dude... Clyde led his team to the Finals twice, while averaging 26 ppg against the 90' Bad Boys and 92' MJ... Dominique averaged 30 in 1993... And you know Pippen can't touch Bird.

regardless, Pippen played to capacity next to MJ, so your theory doesn't work anyway.. His best raw production alongside Mike (21.0 and 7.0 apg) was better than his best without him (22.0 and 5.6 apg)

ultimately, the stats tell the story - during the first 3-peat, pippen was inferior to Bird, Dominique, and Mullin... During the 2nd three-peat, he was inferior to Hill and Penny... Meanwhile, Clyde was a far better as a 1st option, and his 95' run at 2nd option was better than pippen's career at 2nd option
Why wouldn't you bring up defensive stats?

How many of those players made All-NBA and All-Defensive NBA in the same year like Pip did in several consecutive years?

[RRR3]

Pippen’s career high in scoring is higher than Worthy’s.

:eek:

[3ball]

Pippen has more defensive awards than all those players combined. Any of those guys even make a team?


Where was Pippen's defense against:


Worthy 1991 Finals.... 19 on 48% (injured)

X-man 1992 ECSF....... 19 on 48% (Pippen 16 on 42%)
Nance 1992'. ECF.'...... 18 on 47%

Nique. 1993 1st Rd..... 30 on 43% (Pippen 16 on 43%
Nance 1993.. ECSF..... 17 on 62%

Penny 1996 ECF.......... 26 on 47%
Detlef 1996 Finals....... 16 on 48% (pippen 16 on 34%)





Pippen has more defensive awards than all those players combined. Any of those guys even make a team?


Pippen's defense only gave Bulls the 7th, 4th, and 7th best defenses from 91-93', so
why do we say Pippen's defense makes up for his many series of 15 ppg on 33-40%??? (shown below)

Garnett, Duncan, Payton and others were equal or better defenders than Pippen, and we'd never accept 15 on 33% from them in their prime.. that would be massive black marks on their careers forever

Pippen's many horrific series should be looked at the same way (as black marks) - this would elevate MJ more for carrying the offense with goat scoring, while achieving the goat scoring in a system designed for role players (elevating teammates)..

Ultimately, MJ won as "the man" twice as much as anyone in modern history (6 rings to 3), while being #1 in PPG, efficiency rating, and 2-way accolades - but this unmatchable goat resume gets underrated because of shenanigans like overrating Pippen above the help that others had





Pippen has more defensive awards than all those players combined. Any of those guys even make a team?



Pippen has the most number of horrible performances ever:



1988 PLAYOFFS:. 10.0 on 46.5%

1989 PLAYOFFS:. 13.1 on 46.2%

1990 ECF. vs. DET:. 16.6 on 42.8%

1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2%

1993 RD 1 vs. ATL:. 15.0 on 42.2%

1995 ECSF vs ORL:. 19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%

[Smoke117]

OP is so daft that he doesn't realize he's done more to make people hate Jordan on this board than anyone or anything ever could.

[3ball]

OP is so daft that he doesn't realize he's done more to make people hate Jordan on this board than anyone or anything ever could.
Facts are tough for the wrong side to accept, so they dig in rather than concede, yeah I get it

[Smoke117]

Facts are tough for the wrong side to accept, so they dig in rather than concede, yeah I get it

No, most people are just sane. I know sanity is a foreign concept to you, of course.

[bigkingsfan]

MJ defensive impact was the equivalent of Pete Myers, stats say so right?

[SouBeachTalents]

Since ppg/rpg/apg and efficiency are the end all be all of evaluating who the better player is, LeBron is at worst the 2nd greatest perimeter player of all time :applause:

[RRR3]

Since ppg/rpg/apg and efficiency are the end all be all of evaluating who the better player is, LeBron is at worst the 2nd greatest perimeter player of all time :applause:
LeBeast :applause:

[3ball]

Ok but that doesn't change the fact that Pippens 21/7 highs are better than anyone you just listed


No they aren't

21/7 isn't better than the 90's highs of those SF's.. Bird, Hill and Dominique had better highs in the 90's.. 21/7 is an ordinary high for a good wing in the 90's, not the best





especially when you take into account Pippen being a better defender than all of them combined :oldlol:

Seriously how many players in history can get you 21/7/7 with elite defense like prime Pippen? He truly was a one of a kind player :bowdown:


How many guys can get 21/7 with elite defense?

Tons of guys.. Alonzo's 20/10 and 3 blocks is better... And Pippen's great defense while shooting 45% ts < Kemp's solid defense while shooting 65% ts

So tons of guys can match him... 21/7 simply isn't that formidable...

Btw, when pippen is getting 16 on 40% and being outscored by 5+ points, his defense isn't making up 5+ points vs equal or better athletes - like, Kemp or Penny are amazing athletes and it's laughable that anyone thinks pippen's defensive impact is significantly better then theirs if they were in the bulls system alongside mike (enough to make up for Pip's often horrific offense) - it isn't, and that's one of the most overblown narratives there is (that equal or better athletes then Pippen wouldn't be similar defenders in the Bulls system and alongside Mike, certainly enough to make them more valuable than Pippen's often horrific offense)
.

[Kblaze8855]

I would love to see you sit down with an NBA coach and explain why you should judge Scottie Pippen by his numbers. Just for a laugh. Not that we really know how you would frame an opinion verbally because all of them are copied and pasted.

[Real Men Wear Green]

This dumb ass called Penny and Vin Baker small forwards.

[RRR3]

This dumb ass called Penny and Vin Baker small forwards.
:roll:

[Smoke117]

This dumb ass called Penny and Vin Baker small forwards.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[AussieSteve]

Pippen put up similar numbers as a second option as all the others in OP did as first option. Even though he had MJ taking 25 shots a game.

What OP proves is that Pippen was better than all of them. Specially when defense is considered.

Thanks for confirming.

[3ball]

I would love to see you sit down with an NBA coach and explain why you should judge Scottie Pippen by his numbers. Just for a laugh. Not that we really know how you would frame an opinion verbally because all of them are copied and pasted.


If you want to reach a championship level with Pippen as a primary scoring option, you need extra star help (scoring help) to offset his weaker scoring.. this might cost an extra 5-10 million a year to pay someone that can score an extra 6-7 ppg, so your backcourt elevates from BJ Armstrong/Pete Myers (2nd round level), to Terrell Brandon/Pete Myers (championship level)..

Or......... you can just put MJ in Myers' spot... and then you won't need any scoring at the PG spot, so you can replace Brandon's big salary with old Ron Harper at the vet minimum.

Ultimately, only MJ's scoring is enough to win with Pippen as the #2 option and pure role players after that.. Lesser scorers need 2nd and 3rd stars to win with Pippen's level of scoring - only MJ won multiple rings with one star and pure role players

And I know the popular thinking about MJ is that he didn't actually make guys better, and perhaps another guy in his place would've somehow gotten more out of other guys and therefore not needed MJ's scoring level - except pippen, grant, and bj all grew from rookies to all-star level from 1989 to 1993 - no one could grow them faster or better than this and they still needed 36/7/8 on 53% from MJ in the 91-93' Finals... keep in mind that MJ's 41 in 93' was accomplished when the bulls and suns both averaged 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg (so all of mj's 41 was needed).

[Turbo Slayer]

This dumb ass called Penny and Vin Baker small forwards.
:lol :roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

If you want to reach a championship level with Pippen as a primary scoring option, you need extra star help (scoring help) to offset his weaker scoring.. this might cost an extra 5-10 million a year to pay someone that can score an extra 6-7 ppg, so your backcourt elevates from BJ Armstrong/Pete Myers (2nd round level), to Terrell Brandon/Pete Myers (championship level)..

Or......... you can just put MJ in Myers' spot... and then you won't need any scoring at the PG spot, so you can replace Brandon's big salary with old Ron Harper at the vet minimum.

Ultimately, only MJ's scoring is enough to win with Pippen as the #2 option and pure role players after that.. Lesser scorers need 2nd and 3rd stars to win with Pippen's level of scoring - only MJ won multiple rings with one star and pure role players

And I know the popular thinking about MJ is that he didn't actually make guys better, and perhaps another guy in his place would've somehow gotten more out of other guys and therefore not needed MJ's scoring level - except pippen, grant, and bj all grew from rookies to all-star level from 1989 to 1993 - no one could grow them faster or better than this and they still needed 36/7/8 on 53% from MJ in the 91-93' Finals... keep in mind that MJ's 41 in 93' was accomplished when the bulls and suns both averaged 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg (so all of mj's 41 was needed).
Anyone?

[AussieSteve]

Anyone?

How many players are truly 'championship level' first options. Maybe a small handful each year? In the early 90s, maybe MJ, Barkley and Hakeem? Probably not anyone else. No one is arguing pippen is a championship level first option. But nor are most of the other guys in OP



All NBA 1st team. All D first team. 3rd MVP voting. 55 wins. Roll of the dice with conference champs in the PO.

^^^
As first option with roll players.

Pippen was amazing. Without a doubt a top 5 perimeter player in the 90s.

Give it up.

[3ball]

How many players are truly 'championship level' first options.



How many 2nd options have this many horrific series?



1988 PLAYOFFS:. 10.0 on 46.5%

1989 PLAYOFFS:. 13.1 on 46.2%

1990 ECF. vs. DET:. 16.6 on 42.8%

1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2%

1993 RD 1 vs. ATL:. 15.0 on 42.2%

1995 ECSF vs ORL:. 19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%






All NBA 1st team. All D first team. 3rd MVP voting.


Pip only has one top 3 MVP to his name, so he wasn't an MVP-caliber player.. it was just a one-off, which tons of guys have

i.e. Drexler almost beat MJ for MVP in 1992 - a lot of people thought he was getting it... So that one additional ranking and memorable runner-up that represents an entirely higher level of play that pippen could never reach... The same level that allowed Drexler to lead his team to the Finals twice and average 26 ppg against the Bad Boys' and MJ's defense..

Pippen is nowhere near this level and shouldn't rank above Drexler on any chart.. similarly, he shouldn't rank above Ewing, Stockton, and maybe even KJ - their accomplishments show that they were superior players.. and I'm not including someone like Dominique or bernard king, even though their stats destroy pippen's - you could argue that they didn't play "optimally" or with great teamwork





Roll of the dice with conference champs in the PO.


It wasn't a roll of the dice and the Bulls were a Kukoc life saver away from going down 0-3

It was one of those weird series where the loser overachieved big-time, like the 19' clippers vs the warriors





^^^
55 wins.

.
He won 55 from a system and unique motivation - it certainly wasn't his non-spectacular stats or cast that won the 55.. no one in history has ever been in such a situation





Pippen was amazing. Without a doubt a top 5 perimeter player in the 90s.


Nobody will match his accolades because of the rings and how that boosted everything else

But many guys were better including MJ, Drexler, Hill, Penny, Payton

^^^ There's 5

98' and 99' Kobe was also better

[Turbo Slayer]

How many 2nd options have this many horrific series?



Tons of guys have career bests with accolades and accomplishments equal or better than this - if Pip only has one top 3 MVP year to his name, then you've shown that pippen wasn't an MVP-caliber player.

i.e. Drexler almost beat MJ for MVP in 1992 - a lot of people thought he was getting it... So that one additional ranking and memorable runner-up that he has over Pippen actually represents an entirely higher level of play that pippen could never reach... The same level that allowed Drexler to lead his team to the Finals twice and average 26 ppg against the Bad Boys' and MJ's defense..

Pippen is nowhere near this level and shouldn't rank above Drexler on any chart.. similarly, he shouldn't rank above Ewing, Stockton, and maybe even KJ - their accomplishments show that they were superior players.. and I'm not including someone like Dominique or bernard king, even though their stats destroy pippen's - you could argue that they didn't play "optimally" or with great teamwork






It wasn't a roll of the dice and the Bulls were a Kukoc life saver away from going down 0-3

It was one of those weird series where the loser overachieved big-time, like the 19' clippers vs the warriors



He won 55 from a system and unique motivation - it certainly wasn't his non-spectacular stats or cast that won the 55.. no one in history has ever been in such a situation



Nobody will match his accolades because of the rings and how that boosted everything else

But many guys were better including MJ, Drexler, Hill, Penny, Payton

^^^ There's 5

98' and 99' Kobe was also better Laughable. You think Penny and Baker are fowards LOL :lol this poster cannot be taken seriously.

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

Laughable.



Yes these stats are indeed



1988 PLAYOFFS:. 10.0 on 46.5%

1989 PLAYOFFS:. 13.1 on 46.2%

1990 ECF. vs. DET:. 16.6 on 42.8%

1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2%

1993 RD 1 vs. ATL:. 15.0 on 42.2%

1995 ECSF vs ORL:. 19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%


MJ actually won nearly all those series - the best pippen-help he lost with was 10 ppg in the 88' and 89' playoffs (excluding baseball year in 95', where they lost with Pip's 19 on 41%)

So mj wins with any help over 10 ppg, while Lebron loses with 27 and 29 from Wade/Kyrie
.

[Rico2016]

Are we considering the other half of the game of basketball? The half where Pippen is a much better defensive player than Michael and arguably the defensive anchor for all six of the Chicago Bulls title runs? Please don't forget defense because when you consider the other half of the game of basketball it's not even close. Thanks for your efforts, once again, but this was a weak, poor attempt to prop up others while slighting Scottie Pippen.

[Turbo Slayer]

Are we considering the other half of the game of basketball? The half where Pippen is a much better defensive player than Michael and arguably the defensive anchor for all six of the Chicago Bulls title runs? Please don't forget defense because when you consider the other half of the game of basketball it's not even close. Thanks for your efforts, once again, but this was a weak, poor attempt to prop up others while slighting Scottie Pippen.
:rockon: yep

[3ball]

Are we considering the other half of the game of basketball? The half where Pippen is a much better defensive player than Michael and arguably the defensive anchor for all six of the Chicago Bulls title runs? Please don't forget defense because when you consider the other half of the game of basketball it's not even close. Thanks for your efforts, once again, but this was a weak, poor attempt to prop up others while slighting Scottie Pippen.
Without Rodman, we see that Pippen's defensive ability only gave the Bulls the 7th ranked defense for the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th ranking from 91-93')

Otoh, Lebron had the #4 defense in 2007 and routinely ranked higher than 7th, so apparently his defensive help was better than MJ's defensive help (pippen and the #7 ranking).. similarly Lebron's defensive help was better than AI's in 01' (#5 defense), even though AI had the dpoy dikembe.

Ultimately, a teammate's individual defense doesn't matter when comparing the "help" that 2 guys have because defense is a team effort and other teammates or a system can make up 1 player's deficit...

And defense is easier to find than good offense .. for example, Stockton/Malone > Stockton/Dikembe because the Jazz can just get some unathletic white guy like Ostertag to play hard defensively and replicate dikembe - Ostertag infact swept Shaq in 98' - otoh, it's much harder to replicate Malone's offensive prowess, which is why offensive players get the big bucks and are harder to replace

For all these reasons, you overrate pippen and the impact his defense makes.. guys like Payton and Duncan are equal or better defenders than pippen, and we'd never accept 15 on 33% from them in their prime.. so we shouldn't accept it from pippen, and bump him down the ranks because he had a TON of series like that

[Turbo Slayer]

Without Rodman, we see that Pippen's defensive ability only gave the Bulls the 7th ranked defense for the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th ranking from 91-93')

Otoh, Lebron had the #4 defense in 2007 and routinely ranked higher than 7th, so apparently his defensive help was better than MJ's defensive help (pippen and the #7 ranking).. similarly Lebron's defensive help was better than AI's in 01' (#5 defense), even though AI had the dpoy dikembe.

Ultimately, a teammate's individual defense doesn't matter when comparing the "help" that 2 guys have because defense is a team effort and other teammates or a system can make up 1 player's deficit...

For example, Stockton/Malone > Stockton/Dikembe because the Jazz can just get some unathletic white guy like Ostertag to play hard defensively and replicate dikembe - and Ostertag swept Shaq in 98' - otoh, it's much harder to replicate Malone's offensive prowess, which is why offensive players get the big bucks and are harder to replace

For all these reasons, you overrate pippen and the impact his defense makes..
Without Pippen no MJ so I don't think he's overrated like you said. :lol

[3ball]

Without Pippen no MJ so I don't think he's overrated like you said. :lol
Before Woolridge started overdosing on cocaine, Bird thought MJ was working miracles with him and that he'd be an all-star for "years to come" alongside MJ

So if it wasn't gonna be woolridge, it was gonna be the next elite athlete, which happened to be Pippen

All-time greats always get to play with a good player or 2 in their career.. MJ simply won the most with his, which represented the least star help of any multiple time champion

The remarkable thing is that MJ didn't have to tone his scoring down like Lebron, Kobe, and others when they won - mj is the only guy to win a title as scoring champ (6 times).. edit: Kareem and shaq did it once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00'...

MJ winning the title as the scoring champ shows how optimal his game was that he didn't have to tone it down to win - his game was good enough in it's "hot dog scoring champion mode", whereas others had to tone it down below 30 ppg to win

[eliteballer]

Vin Bakers, Shawn Kemp, Coleman on a list of small forwards?

Now you're making me question how old you are..

[3ball]

Vin Bakers, Shawn Kemp, Coleman on a list of small forwards?

Now you're making me question how old you are..
Anyone who watched at the time knows that Vin was versatile as hell and played the 3 at times

And I included coleman and kemp in a different category in the IP

The guys that were picking on the positional stuff earlier simply have no other argument - Pippen's many horrific offensive series and 7th team rank on defense isn't much to stand on.. heck lebron had more defensive help with his 07' Cavs, who had the #4 defense

Ultimately, guys like Payton and Duncan were equal or better defenders than Pip, but we'd never accept 15 on 33% from them in their prime - those would be black marks on their career and they should be for pippen too.. and he has a ton of series like this

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


Bulls defensive rank from 91-93':.' 7th, 4th, 7th

Pippen's many poor offensive series and his 7th rank for team defense isn't much to stand on.. heck lebron had more defensive help with his 07' Cavs, who had the #4 defense

And guys like Payton and Duncan were equal or better defenders than Pip, but we'd never accept 15 on 33% from them in their prime - those would be black marks on their career and they should be for pippen too, who has many series like this

[AussieSteve]

... insane ramblings...

Pip had 1 prime season as first option and in that 1 season he achieved more than what many all time top 50 players achieved as first option in their whole career. If he had a decade as first option, not under the shadow of MJ, he'd have multiple top 5 MVP finishes, and surely at least a couple of deep playoff runs as the man. Of course he's not winning a championship as the best scorer on the team, but he certainly could win rings as the best player on the team, as long as he had decent 2nd soring option. He'd need a 2nd all star but theres no shame in that. Jordan needed one too.

You think most of the guys in OP were better than Pip. Show me one that got out of the 2nd round without a significantly more stacked team than the 94 Bulls.

[3ball]

Pip had 1 prime season as first option and in that 1 season he achieved more than what many all time top 50 players achieved as first option in their whole career. If he had a decade as first option, not under the shadow of MJ, he'd have multiple top 5 MVP finishes, and surely at least a couple of deep playoff runs as the man. Of course he's not winning a championship as the best scorer on the team, but he certainly could win rings as the best player on the team, as long as he had decent 2nd soring option. He'd need a 2nd all star but theres no shame in that. Jordan needed one too.

You think most of the guys in OP were better than Pip. Show me one that got out of the 2nd round without a significantly more stacked team than the 94 Bulls.
If he wasn't under the shadow of MJ, he wouldn't make the ECF as a 2nd year player in 1989, which was an experience that allowed the start of a 3-peat just 2 years later in 1991.

at that time, the multiple-star Celtics/Lakers ruled the day and no one was winning with just 1 star like Pippen, and no one was even TRYING to - so MJ was doing something that only his goat scoring was capable of even trying...

Pippen couldn't get so far so quick with anyone else, or play a bigger role for bigger stakes - no one was beating a #1 SRS, 4-star monster like the 89' Cavs with a 1 man team, and no one was beating the Bad Boys with just 1 other star either.. Only MJ's goat scoring could try these things and ultimately enable the bulls to win goat amounts with a relatively undermanned roster

[AussieSteve]

If he wasn't under the shadow of MJ, he wouldn't make the ECF as a 2nd year player in 1989, which was an experience that allowed the start of a 3-peat just 2 years later in 1991.

at that time, the multiple-star Celtics/Lakers ruled the day and no one was winning with just 1 star like Pippen, and no one was even TRYING to - so MJ was doing something that only his goat scoring was capable of even trying...

Pippen couldn't get so far so quick with anyone else, or play a bigger role for bigger stakes - no one was beating a #1 SRS, 4-star monster like the 89' Cavs with a 1 man team, and no one was beating the Bad Boys with just 1 other star either.. Only MJ's goat scoring could try these things and ultimately enable the bulls to win goat amounts with a relatively undermanned roster

Pip had 1 prime season as first option and in that 1 season he achieved more than what many all time top 50 players achieved as first option in their whole career.*If he had a decade as first option, not under the shadow of MJ, he'd have multiple top 5 MVP finishes, and surely at least a couple of deep playoff runs as the man. Of course he's not winning a championship as the best scorer on the team, but he certainly could win rings as the best player on the team, as long as he had decent 2nd soring option. He'd need a 2nd all star but theres no shame in that. Jordan needed one too.

You think most of the guys in OP were better than Pip. Show me one that got out of the 2nd round without a significantly more stacked team than the 94 Bulls.

[Round Mound]

Pip had 1 prime season as first option and in that 1 season he achieved more than what many all time top 50 players achieved as first option in their whole career.*If he had a decade as first option, not under the shadow of MJ, he'd have multiple top 5 MVP finishes, and surely at least a couple of deep playoff runs as the man. Of course he's not winning a championship as the best scorer on the team, but he certainly could win rings as the best player on the team, as long as he had decent 2nd soring option. He'd need a 2nd all star but theres no shame in that. Jordan needed one too.

You think most of the guys in OP were better than Pip. Show me one that got out of the 2nd round without a significantly more stacked team than the 94 Bulls.

:applause: 1993-94 of Pippen Thread I Made A While Ago Has Been Eliminated. I Wondery Why? :rolleyes:

MJ is the GOAT but he was blessed by playing with:

- The Best Perimeter Defender and Defensive SF Ever
- The Best Creator of Offense-Ballhandlining and Dishing SF of the 90's
- The 1st or 2nd Best (with Grant Hill) Slashing-Driving-Coast to Coast- Finisher and Dunker at the SF position in the 90's
- A Solid Rebounder
- A Good Scorer

22.0 PPG on 49% FG is not bad at all for a 1st option SF.
8.7 RPG a Good Rebounder
5.6 APG a Great Passer
2.9 SPG and 0.8 BPG a GREAT Defender

- 4th In PER
- 7th In Defensive Rating (All Others PFs and Cs)
- 2nd in Plus/Minus (Great TEAM Player)

And a 1st Option Focal Player to Lead The Bulls to 55 Wins (Two Less than with Jordan) and we all now the famous bogous call on a non existant foul during the Knicks vs Bulls Semi Finals in 94: which wen't to 7 games.

1990-98 Pippen Was a Top 10 Player in the Game!

[3ball]

Pip had 1 prime season as first option and in that 1 season he achieved more than what many all time top 50 players achieved as first option in their whole career.


The Bulls obviously didn't win 55 from Pippen's ho-hum stats or cast - they had a 3-peat system in 1994 that Pippen wouldn't have on his own - he's a system player and never did anything without it






*If he had a decade as first option, not under the shadow of MJ, he'd have multiple top 5 MVP finishes, and surely at least a couple of deep playoff runs as the man. Of course he's not winning a championship as the best scorer on the team, but he certainly could win rings as the best player on the team, as long as he had decent 2nd soring option. He'd need a 2nd all star but theres no shame in that. Jordan needed one too.


Pippen's scoring level isn't normally enough for a 2nd option on a dynasty... infact, the bulls are the only 2-star dynasty ever - MJ's goat scoring enables this... a lesser scorer than MJ would require a 3rd star or more firepower in general





You think most of the guys in OP were better than Pip. Show me one that got out of the 2nd round without a significantly more stacked team than the 94 Bulls.
I agree - the bulls had a 2nd round team that year, based mostly on the 3-peat system, not pippen's ho-hum numbers or cast .. mj elevated this to 3-peat TWICE (91-93 and 96-98)

he was simply worth a 3-peat with any 18 ppg sidekick - if that sidekick had worse D than Pip then MJ might need a slight upgrade defensively at pf or center - whatever gives him about the 7th best defense like they had from 91-93'.. so nothing major

[jlip]

This dumb ass called Penny and Vin Baker small forwards.

Thread should have ended here.

[Rico2016]

Penny, Drexler, Kemp, and Baker were SFs?


FALSE INFORMATION

[AussieSteve]

The Bulls obviously didn't win 55 from Pippen's ho-hum stats or cast - they had a 3-peat system in 1994 that Pippen wouldn't have on his own - he's a system player and never did anything without it




Pippen's scoring level isn't normally enough for a 2nd option on a dynasty... infact, the bulls are the only 2-star dynasty ever - MJ's goat scoring enables this... a lesser scorer than MJ would require a 3rd star or more firepower in general



I agree - the bulls had a 2nd round team that year, based mostly on the 3-peat system, not pippen's ho-hum numbers or cast .. mj elevated this to 3-peat TWICE (91-93 and 96-98)

he was simply worth a 3-peat with any 18 ppg sidekick - if that sidekick had worse D than Pip then MJ might need a slight upgrade defensively at pf or center - whatever gives him about the 7th best defense like they had from 91-93'.. so nothing major

So obviously, in your opinion, pippen was better than everyone in OP. Given that have evaded the below, which I now post for the third time...



Pip had 1 prime season as first option and in that 1 season he achieved more than what many all time top 50 players achieved as first option in their whole career.*If he had a decade as first option, not under the shadow of MJ, he'd have multiple top 5 MVP finishes, and surely at least a couple of deep playoff runs as the man. Of course he's not winning a championship as the best scorer on the team, but he certainly could win rings as the best player on the team, as long as he had decent 2nd soring option. He'd need a 2nd all star but theres no shame in that. Jordan needed one too.

You think most of the guys in OP were better than Pip. Show me one that got out of the 2nd round without a significantly more stacked team than the 94 Bulls.


... CAN YOU GIVE ME A NAME?

[3ball]

Pip had 1 prime season as first option and in that 1 season he achieved more than what many all time top 50 players achieved as first option in their whole career


Pippen choked in Game 3 of the 1994 ECSF (refusing to go into the game)

The he choked again in Game 5 by committing a junior high-level foul on a jumpshooter with the game on n the line

Then he choked for a 3rd time in that series with a horrific Game 7...

So 1994 showed that Pippen was a joke at 1st option and couldn't handle it

Ultimately, the Bulls didn't win 55 from Pippen's ho-hum stats or cast - they won via a 3-peat system in 1994 that Pippen wouldn't have on his own - he's a system player and never did anything without it





If he had a decade as first option, not under the shadow of MJ, he'd have multiple top 5 MVP finishes


He wouldn't have shit without the Bulls' system - Pippen is a system player - him was nothing without it, just like other bulls players

You're just overrating Pippen - he could barely shoot





You think most of the guys in OP were better than Pip. Show me one that got out of the 2nd round without a significantly more stacked team than the 94 Bulls.


... CAN YOU GIVE ME A NAME?


You don't need a name because I agree that the bulls had a 2nd round team that year, just like Kyrie's Celtics in 2019 - a garbage team - they were shit without MJ

So MJ elevated a 2nd round team to two 3-peats - think about it - Durant can't even 3-peat with a 73-win team and MJ did it with that garbage the bulls were in 94'
.

[AussieSteve]

When did Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, James Worthy, Vin Baker, Chris Mullin, Derrick Coleman or Shawn Kemp ever take their team past the 2nd round as THE MAN on their team. Did any of them even get past the first round as THE MAN? Did any of them win 50+ games as THE MAN? Did Drexler do any of this, aside from when he had a couple other all stars and by his side and an amazingly deep roster?

Did any of them ever make all NBA 1st and all D 1st teams in the same season?

The answer to all these questions is no.

Pippen had 1 season as first option to achieve all this and he did. Most of the others had many seasons to achieve it but never did.

He is better than pretty much everyone in OP. Despite your cherry picked scoring stats.

[SpaceJam]

When did Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, James Worthy, Vin Baker, Chris Mullin, Derrick Coleman or Shawn Kemp ever take their team past the 2nd round as THE MAN on their team. Did any of them even get past the first round as THE MAN? Did any of them win 50+ games as THE MAN? Did Drexler do any of this, aside from when he had a couple other all stars and by his side and an amazingly deep roster?

Did any of them ever make all NBA 1st and all D 1st teams in the same season?

The answer to all these questions is no.

Pippen had 1 season as first option to achieve all this and he did. Most of the others had many seasons to achieve it but never did.

He is better than pretty much everyone in OP. Despite your cherry picked scoring stats.

Shut it down damn :biggums:

[3ball]

When did Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, James Worthy, Vin Baker, Chris Mullin, Derrick Coleman or Shawn Kemp ever take their team past the 2nd round as THE MAN on their team.


Worthy led the Lakers in scoring with 24 ppg on 59% in the 1987 playoffs, including 31 ppg on 60% in the WCF to carry the Lakers to the Finals...

He also led the Lakers in the 88' playoffs and was Finals MVP... So Pippen is nowhere near Worthy

Kemp led the Sonics with 21 ppg on 57% in the 96' playoffs and got fmvp votes in the Finals

And obviously, drexler led Portland to the 90' and 92' Finals, while averaging 26 against the bad boys and MJ

So lots of guys did it, and they didn't even have a 3-peat system like Pippen did





Did any of them even get past the first round as THE MAN?


Mullin in 1991

Also - worthy, kemp and drexler were the top scorer while leading their teams to the Finals, whereas Pippen can't be the top scorer on a Finals team, so he couldn't do that

And Dominique had the legendary battle with Bird in the 88' playoffs





Did any of them win 50+ games as THE MAN?


Nearly all of them did

Mullin, Kemp, drexler, Dominique, bird





Did Drexler do any of this, aside from when he had a couple other all stars and by his side and an amazingly deep roster?


So now the blazers were amazingly stacked?? . gtfo dude ur a joke





Did any of them ever make all NBA 1st and all D 1st teams in the same season?


This is the only thing you have... Whoopdiwhoop... You wanna cookie?





Pippen had 1 season as first option to achieve all this and he did.


Only because he had a 3-peat system .

we know the Bulls didn't win 55 from Pippen's ho-hum stats and cast - it was the system, which he wouldn't have without MJ...

It started with MJ putting the Bulls in position to contend in 1989, and then 3-peating from 91-93'.. that gave pippen a system to use in 1994 - pip was never anything before or after the system - the quintessential system player





He is better than pretty much everyone in OP.


No he isn't because we know the Bulls didn't win 55 from Pippen's ho-hum stats and cast

It was the 3-peat system, which he wouldn't have without MJ... It started with MJ putting the Bulls in position to contend in 1989, and then 3-peating from 91-93'

MJ was simply worth a 3-peat with any 18 ppg sidekick - if that sidekick had worse D than Pip, then MJ might need a slight upgrade defensively at pf or center - whatever gives him about the 7th best defense like they had from 91-93'.. so nothing major

[AussieSteve]

Worthy led the Lakers in scoring with 24 ppg on 59% in the 1987 playoffs, including 31 ppg on 60% in the WCF to carry the Lakers to the Finals...

He also led the Lakers in the 88' playoffs and was Finals MVP... So Pippen is nowhere near Worthy

Kemp led the Sonics with 21 ppg on 57% in the 96' playoffs and got fmvp votes in the Finals

And obviously, drexler led Portland to the 90' and 92' Finals, while averaging 26 against the bad boys and MJ

So lots of guys did it, and they didn't even have a 3-peat system like Pippen did



Mullin in 1991

Also - worthy, kemp and drexler were the top scorer while leading their teams to the Finals, whereas Pippen can't be the top scorer on a Finals team, so he couldn't do that

And Dominique had the legendary battle with Bird in the 88' playoffs



Nearly all of them did

Mullin, Kemp, drexler, Dominique, bird



So now the blazers were amazingly stacked?? . gtfo dude ur a joke



This is the only thing you have... Whoopdiwhoop... You wanna cookie?



Only because he had a 3-peat system .

we know the Bulls didn't win 55 from Pippen's ho-hum stats and cast - it was the system, which he wouldn't have without MJ...

It started with MJ putting the Bulls in position to contend in 1989, and then 3-peating from 91-93'.. that gave pippen a system to use in 1994 - pip was never anything before or after the system - the quintessential system player



No he isn't because we know the Bulls didn't win 55 from Pippen's ho-hum stats and cast

It was the 3-peat system, which he wouldn't have without MJ... It started with MJ putting the Bulls in position to contend in 1989, and then 3-peating from 91-93'

MJ was simply worth a 3-peat with any 18 ppg sidekick - if that sidekick had worse D than Pip, then MJ might need a slight upgrade defensively at pf or center - whatever gives him about the 7th best defense like they had from 91-93'.. so nothing major



Let it be known that Chris Mullin is better than Scottie pippen because he once made it out of the first round as the first option.

Or was he 2nd option? Or third? I can't tell between him, Mitch Richmond and Tim Hardaway.

You imbecile.

[AussieSteve]

Worthy led the Lakers in scoring with 24 ppg on 59% in the 1987 playoffs, including 31 ppg on 60% in the WCF to carry the Lakers to the Finals...

He also led the Lakers in the 88' playoffs and was Finals MVP... So Pippen is nowhere near Worthy

Kemp led the Sonics with 21 ppg on 57% in the 96' playoffs and got fmvp votes in the Finals

And obviously, drexler led Portland to the 90' and 92' Finals, while averaging 26 against the bad boys and MJ

So lots of guys did it, and they didn't even have a 3-peat system like Pippen did



Mullin in 1991

Also - worthy, kemp and drexler were the top scorer while leading their teams to the Finals, whereas Pippen can't be the top scorer on a Finals team, so he couldn't do that

And Dominique had the legendary battle with Bird in the 88' playoffs



Nearly all of them did

Mullin, Kemp, drexler, Dominique, bird



So now the blazers were amazingly stacked?? . gtfo dude ur a joke



This is the only thing you have... Whoopdiwhoop... You wanna cookie?



Only because he had a 3-peat system .

we know the Bulls didn't win 55 from Pippen's ho-hum stats and cast - it was the system, which he wouldn't have without MJ...

It started with MJ putting the Bulls in position to contend in 1989, and then 3-peating from 91-93'.. that gave pippen a system to use in 1994 - pip was never anything before or after the system - the quintessential system player



No he isn't because we know the Bulls didn't win 55 from Pippen's ho-hum stats and cast

It was the 3-peat system, which he wouldn't have without MJ... It started with MJ putting the Bulls in position to contend in 1989, and then 3-peating from 91-93'

MJ was simply worth a 3-peat with any 18 ppg sidekick - if that sidekick had worse D than Pip, then MJ might need a slight upgrade defensively at pf or center - whatever gives him about the 7th best defense like they had from 91-93'.. so nothing major


Let it be known that James Worthy is better than Scottie Pippen because he won some playoff series while scoring more than Pippen ever did.

Not sure if he was best player on the team or his team mate Magic Johnson was.

[iamgine]

Were these small forwards also DPOY level defender? :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Were these small forwards also DPOY level defender? :confusedshrug:
it's very easy for a team to make up a defensive deficit at a certain position with better defenders elsewhere on the team or a good system, compared to making up an offensive deficit... that's why the offensive gap between 2 players is more important than the defensive gap.

Pippen wasn't giving the Bulls #1 defenses - without rodman, the Bulls only had the 7th, 4th, and 7th defenses from 91-93' - so Lebron's many higher-ranked defenses had more defensive help than what pippen was providing.

Lebron had better rim protection and a higher number of good defending teammates overall, thus giving him better defenses/better defensive help than what MJ had

Since teammates and system easily make up for 1 player's defensive deficit, individual defense is much less important when comparing 2 players than offense, which is harder and costlier to replace...

i.e. the 98' Jazz used an unathletic white boy (Ostertag) to sweep Shaq, while the 01' sixers had the dpoy center but gave up almost 40/20 to Shaq.. so again, since defense is a function of system and team, which easily makes up for any 1 defender, individual defense is much less important when comparing 2 players than offense, which is harder and costlier to replace

Ultimately, it's easier for Ostertag to play hard and mimic the dpoy center, than for him to mimic the offensive prowess of Karl Malone.. it's simply very easy for a team to make up individual defensive deficit than an offensive deficit... again, that's why the offensive gap between 2 players is more important than the defensive gap..

you guys are simply VASTLY overrating Pippen's defense - but you should already know that because pip is the only guy you ever use the defensive argument for - it's a testament to how great MJ's offense was that you need to boost pip's defense like that
.

[AirBonner]

No Pip no chip

[3ball]

No Pip no chip
Wade > Pippen

Wade and Bosh > Pippen


And btw, the 98' Jazz used an unathletic white boy (Ostertag) to sweep Shaq, while the 01' sixers had the dpoy center but gave up almost 40/20 to Shaq.. so again, since defense is a function of system and team, which easily makes up for any 1 defender, individual defense is much less important when comparing 2 players than offense, which is harder and costlier to replace

Ultimately, it's easier for Ostertag to play hard and mimic the dpoy center, than for him to mimic the offensive prowess of Karl Malone.. it's simply very easy for a team to make up individual defensive deficit than an offensive deficit... again, that's why the offensive gap between 2 players is more important than the defensive gap..

you guys are simply VASTLY overrating Pippen's defense - but you should already know that because pip is the only guy you ever use the defensive argument for - it's a testament to how great MJ's offense was that you need to boost pip's defense like that

Pippen wasn't giving the Bulls #1 defenses - without rodman, the Bulls only had the 7th, 4th, and 7th defenses from 91-93' - so Lebron's many higher-ranked defenses had more defensive help than what pippen was providing.

Lebron had better rim protection and a higher number of good defending teammates overall, thus giving him better defenses/better defensive help than what MJ had

Since teammates and system easily make up for 1 player's defensive deficit, individual defense is much less important when comparing 2 players than offense, which is harder and costlier to replace...

[Turbo Slayer]

3ball speaking bullshit. I am 14 yrs old and I'm more logical than a middle age fool who trying to reclaim his youth. Sad. :facepalm

[RealSkipBayless]

3ball speaking bullshit. I am 14 yrs old and I'm more logical than a middle age fool who trying to reclaim his youth. Sad. :facepalm
True. We are thankful you take time out of your lunch to post on here. :applause:

[Turbo Slayer]

True. We are thankful you take time out of your lunch to post on here. :applause:
Actually school has ended at 2:15 LOL :lol

[Rico2016]

No Pip no chip


https://media.giphy.com/media/l46CbUJPXiDPEkJcA/giphy.gif

[3ball]

3ball speaking bullshit. I am 14 yrs old and I'm more logical than a middle age fool who trying to reclaim his youth. Sad. :facepalm
Pippen was worth the #7 defense

Lebron's defensive help yielded higher rankings and therefore were more defensive help than Pip

it's simply very easy for a team to make up an individual defensive deficit than an offensive deficit... that's why the offensive gap between 2 players is more important than the defensive gap..

you guys are simply VASTLY overrating Pippen's defense - but you should already know that because pip is the only guy you ever use the defensive argument for - it's a testament to how great MJ's offense was that you need to boost pip's defense like that

Ultimately, guys like Payton and Duncan were equal or better defenders than Pip, yet we'd never excuse them for getting 15 on 33% in their prime.. pippen gets excused because honestly, no one noticed at the time because it was all about MJ... And now people have the audacity to act like mj needed pippen? It's a rewriting of history - in the 90's, someone would've had your head examined if you said mj needed pippen

[Rico2016]

No
Pip

No
Chip

[3ball]

No
Pip

No
Chip
^^^ that's goat

The supposed #2 all-time need much more to win

no Wade/Bosh no chip

no Kyrie/Love no chip

[Rico2016]

^^^ that's goat

The supposed #2 all-time need much more to win

no Wade/Bosh no chip

no Kyrie/Love no chip

You listed four players while I listed one.

No Pip, no chip.

[3ball]

You listed four players while I listed one.

No Pip, no chip.
it's better to list 1 - Lebron needed extra stars to win

No big 3 no chip

No 2 star teammates no chip

That's worse than no pip no chip

[RRR3]

it's better to list 1 - Lebron needed extra stars to win

No big 3 no chip

No 2 star teammates no chip

That's worse than no pip no chip
LeBron won in 2013 with his second and third options averaging 15.9 and 12.1 PPG. Clearly he doesn’t need much scoring help to win a ring :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

LeBron won in 2013 with his second and third options averaging 15.9 and 12.1 PPG. Clearly he doesn’t need much scoring help to win a ring :confusedshrug:


^^^ In the weak East where good stats aren't needed

In the Finals, Lebron (a net negative) would've lost without 20/4/5 on 47% from Wade (peak pippen numbers), plus a bailout from Ray, plus a top 3 PF just in case someone gets hurt..





LeBron won in 2013 with his second and third options averaging 15.9 and 12.1 PPG. Clearly he doesn’t need much scoring help to win a ring :confusedshrug:



Old Wade > prime Pippen:



Wade. 13-14' reg. season (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2013-2014-sum:per_game):. 20.3 ppg.. 53.1 fg.. 23.1 PER
Wade. 13-16' reg. season (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game):. 20.2 ppg.. 49.3 fg.. 22.0 PER
Pippen 91-96' reg season (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:per_game):. 20.0 ppg.. 48.9 fg.. 21.3 PER
Wade. 15-16' reg. season (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game):. 20.1 ppg.. 46.3 fg.. 20.8 PER
Wade. 11-14' reg. season (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game):. 22.0 ppg.. 47.5 fg.. 24.5 PER

Wade.. 13-16' playoffs (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2013-2016-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 17.9 ppg.. 47.5 fg.. 19.5 PER
Pippen 96-98' playoffs (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 17.6 ppg.. 40.8 fg.. 19.0 PER

Wade.. 10-12' playoffs (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2010-2012-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 24.6 ppg.. 48.4 fg.. 24.7 PER
Wade. 11-14' playoffs (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game):.. 20.3 ppg.. 47.5 fg.. 21.6 PER
Pippen 91-93' playoffs (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 20.3 ppg.. 47.8 fg.. 19.6 PER





LeBron won in 2013 with his second and third options averaging 15.9 and 12.1 PPG. Clearly he doesn’t need much scoring help to win a ring :confusedshrug:


Other than the baseball year, the best Pippen-help that MJ lost with was 10 ppg in the 88' and 89' playoffs... :eek:

Meanwhile, Lebron lost with 27 ppg Wade and 29 Kyrie... :facepalm ... No comparison

(in the baseball year, they lost with Pip's 19 on 41%)
.

[RealSkipBayless]

Actually school has ended at 2:15 LOL :lol
Oh.

Thought you were in Cali with the rest of the Bron family. :lol

:banana: :banana:

[ArbitraryWater]

defense

[bigkingsfan]

(in the baseball year, they lost with Pip's 19 on 41%)
.
Pip didn't get picked by Nick "Thick" Anderson and then threw the ball away because he was afraid to take the final shot.

[3ball]

defense


Without Rodman, the Bulls defense was 7th, 4th, and 7th from 91-93'

So Pippen was worth the #7 defense.. Lebron's defensive help yielded higher rankings and therefore was more defensive help than Pip

it's simply very easy for a team to make up an individual's defensive deficit than an offensive deficit... that's why the offensive gap between 2 players is more important than the defensive gap..

you guys are simply VASTLY overrating how much Pippen's defense should be considered part of MJ's "help" - but you should already know that because pip is the only guy you ever use the defensive argument for - it's a testament to how great MJ's offense was that you need to boost pip's defense like that

In reality, guys like Payton and Duncan were equal or better defenders than Pip, yet we'd never excuse them for getting 15 on 33% in their prime, which pip did many times... So he's overrated - period

Ultimately, pippen gets excused for his horrific performances because honestly, no one noticed Pip's performance at the time because it was all about MJ... yet now people have the audacity to act like mj needed pippen? It's a rewriting of history - in the 90's, someone would've had your head examined if you said mj needed pippen
.

[3ball]

Pip didn't get picked by Nick "Thick" Anderson and then threw the ball away because he was afraid to take the final shot.
Biggest choking series:

Jordan 95' ECSF.'.... 31/7/4/2/2 on 48%
Lebron 11' Finals.... 18/7/6/2/0 on 47%

[bigkingsfan]

Biggest choking series:

Jordan 95' ECSF.'.... 31/7/4/2/2 on 48%
Lebron 11' Finals.... 18/7/6/2/0 on 47%
Ordan 95 finals # 0/0/0/0/0 on 0%
Lebron ECSF 28 on 47%

[Turbo Slayer]

Oh.

Thought you were in Cali with the rest of the Bron family. :lol

:banana: :banana:

Im guessing you live in cali? I live in NY. No matter where we live, we are FAMILY :rockon: :banana:

[Turbo Slayer]

Ordan 95 finals # 0/0/0/0/0 on 0%
Lebron ECSF 28 on 47%
Facts. These MJ stans dodging this post. Good man. :oldlol:

[AussieSteve]

It's amazing how the more you look into the numbers, the more it becomes aparent that Pippen was absolutely the best #2 of the 90s. 7x All NBA (including 3x 1st team). 10x All D. All Star MVP. Had just the one crack at being the #1 on his team, won 55 and went very close to the conference finals.

Even aside from the rings and the eye test (which is enough to tell you how great Pip was), it's a resume that stacks well against many of the greatest of all time. There just aren't many players of that era who did, or likely even could have, matched his elite and sustained excellence.

[madmax]

It's amazing how the more you look into the numbers, the more it becomes aparent that Pippen was absolutely the best #2 of the 90s. 7x All NBA (including 3x 1st team). 10x All D. All Star MVP. Had just the one crack at being the #1 on his team, won 55 and went very close to the conference finals.

Even aside from the rings and the eye test (which is enough to tell you how great Pip was), it's a resume that stacks well against many of the greatest of all time. There just aren't many players of that era who did, or likely even could have, matched his elite and sustained excellence.

:applause:
Pip was clearly a Lebron lite player - an all around great SF with stiffling perimeter D and no ego speak of at all. A perfect complimentary star for shotjacking Jordon to pad his scoring numbers and resume playing with quiet reserved teammate. No Pip, no chip!:cheers:

[Turbo Slayer]

:applause:
Pip was clearly a Lebron lite player - an all around great SF with stiffling perimeter D and no ego speak of at all. A perfect complimentary star for shotjacking Jordon to pad his scoring numbers and resume playing with quiet reserved teammate. No Pip, no chip!:cheers:

:rockon:

[3ball]

.

Had just the one crack at being the #1 on his team, won 55 and went very close to the conference finals.


They were a kukoc miracle away from an 0-3 deficit

That was one of those weird series where wacky shit happens and the loser overachieved, like the 19' clippers

And it's disgraceful for you to give Pippen credit for that series when he had possibly the worst 1st option performance ever - 21 on 41% with 3 chokes in 1 series (sit-out game, dumb foul game, horrific gm 7).

Now I can understand if Pippen averaged 23/11 and upset Magic's 1 seed to make the conference finals like KJ in 90'... Or of he averaged 31 on 60% to lead the bulls to the Finals like Worthy in the 87' WCF... or drexler leading the blazers to 2 Finals and averaging 26 against the bad boys and then MJ... Or Kemp leading the Sonic's in scoring on the way to the Finals.

But pippen has nothing like this - all he has is a horrible 2nd round performance like Kyrie in 19' playoffs ... It's nothing compared to those other guys, but the rings give him inflated/fake accolades and props that he otherwise wouldn't get just based on his play
..




It's amazing how the more you look into the numbers, the more it becomes aparent that Pippen was absolutely the best #2 of the 90s. 7x All NBA (including 3x 1st team). 10x All D. All Star MVP. Had just the one crack at being the #1 on his team, won 55 and went very close to the conference finals.


^^^ fake or inflated accolades that only occurred because the rings boosted his profile, plus he used a 3-peat system that he was nothing without - he'd be just another 18 ppg player without the rings or system

various guys were better (below)





Pippen was absolutely the best #2 of the 90s.



Stockton was better:

Stockton 90-99' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html#1990-1999-sum:per_game):. 22.6 PER.. 0.216 ws.. 5.2 obpm.. 14.9.. 2.9.. 11.9.. 61.4 ts
Pippen... 90-99' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1999-sum:per_game):. 20.2 PER.. 0.169 ws.. 3.3 obpm.. 19.2.. 7.2.. 5.9.. 54.4 ts..

Stockton 90-99' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html#1990-1999-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 19.7 PER.. 0.156 ws.. 4.2 obpm.. 13.8.. 3.0.. 10.5.. 56.0 ts
Pippen... 90-99' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1999-sum:playoffs_per_game):.' 19.4 PER.. 0.154 ws.. 2.8 obpm.. 19.1 ppg.. 7.9.. 5.5.. 52.3 ts


KJ was better:

KJ RS:.. 17.9.. 3.3.. 9.1.. 58.5 ts.. 118 ortg.. 20.7 PER.. 0.178 ws/48
Pip RS:. 16.2.. 6.4.. 5.2.. 53.6 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.6 PER.. 0.146 ws/48

KJ PO:.. 19.3.. 3.3.. 8.9.. 55.7 ts.. 113 ortg.. 19.1 PER.. 0.117 ws/48
Pip PO:. 17.5.. 7.6.. 5.0.. 52.4 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.4 PER.. 0.140 ws/48


Kemp was better:

S KEMP 1996 PO: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. 64.0 ts
PIPPEN 1996 PO: 16.9 ppg..... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts

S KEMP 1996 FINALS:. 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. 63.3 ts
PIPPEN 1996 FINALS:. 15.7 ppg..... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts

[AirBonner]

They were a kukoc miracle away from an 0-3 deficit

That was one of those weird series where wacky shit happens and the loser overachieved, like the 19' clippers

And it's disgraceful for you to give Pippen credit for that series when he had possibly the worst 1st option performance ever - 21 on 41% with 3 chokes in 1 series (sit-out game, dumb foul game, horrific gm 7).

Now I can understand if Pippen averaged 23/11 and upset Magic's 1 seed to make the conference finals like KJ in 90'... Or of he averaged 31 on 60% to lead the bulls to the Finals like Worthy in the 87' WCF... or drexler leading the blazers to 2 Finals and averaging 26 against the bad boys and then MJ... Or Kemp leading the Sonic's in scoring on the way to the Finals.

But pippen has nothing like this - all he has is a horrible 2nd round performance like Kyrie in 19' playoffs ... It's nothing compared to those other guys, but the rings give him inflated/fake accolades and props that he otherwise wouldn't get just based on his play
..


^^^ fake or inflated accolades that only occurred because the rings boosted his profile, plus he used a 3-peat system that he was nothing without - he'd be just another 18 ppg player without the rings or system

various guys were better (below)




Stockton was better:

Stockton 90-99' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html#1990-1999-sum:per_game):. 22.6 PER.. 0.216 ws.. 5.2 obpm.. 14.9.. 2.9.. 11.9.. 61.4 ts
Pippen... 90-99' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1999-sum:per_game):. 20.2 PER.. 0.169 ws.. 3.3 obpm.. 19.2.. 7.2.. 5.9.. 54.4 ts..

Stockton 90-99' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html#1990-1999-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 19.7 PER.. 0.156 ws.. 4.2 obpm.. 13.8.. 3.0.. 10.5.. 56.0 ts
Pippen... 90-99' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1999-sum:playoffs_per_game):.' 19.4 PER.. 0.154 ws.. 2.8 obpm.. 19.1 ppg.. 7.9.. 5.5.. 52.3 ts


KJ was better:

KJ RS:.. 17.9.. 3.3.. 9.1.. 58.5 ts.. 118 ortg.. 20.7 PER.. 0.178 ws/48
Pip RS:. 16.2.. 6.4.. 5.2.. 53.6 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.6 PER.. 0.146 ws/48

KJ PO:.. 19.3.. 3.3.. 8.9.. 55.7 ts.. 113 ortg.. 19.1 PER.. 0.117 ws/48
Pip PO:. 17.5.. 7.6.. 5.0.. 52.4 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.4 PER.. 0.140 ws/48


Kemp was better:

S KEMP 1996 PO: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. 64.0 ts
PIPPEN 1996 PO: 16.9 ppg..... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts

S KEMP 1996 FINALS:. 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. 63.3 ts
PIPPEN 1996 FINALS:. 15.7 ppg..... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts
No Pip no chip. You are a stat box watcher you actually have no idea of true impact

[3ball]

No Pip no chip. You are a stat box watcher you actually have no idea of true impact
No Big 3 no chip

[RRR3]

No Big 3 no chip
Wade and Bosh in the 13 playoffs: 15.9 PPG and 12.1 PPG.



SUPASTAHS.

[Turbo Slayer]

Wade and Bosh in the 13 playoffs: 15.9 PPG and 12.1 PPG.



SUPASTAHS. Ether. MJ stans shook. RRR3 :banana: GOATED.

[AirBonner]

Wade and Bosh in the 13 playoffs: 15.9 PPG and 12.1 PPG.



SUPASTAHS.
Shut his ass down :oldlol:

[Turbo Slayer]

3ball went offline after RRR3's post :roll:

[Rico2016]

Pip didn't get picked by Nick "Thick" Anderson and then threw the ball away because he was afraid to take the final shot.


Oh yikes...That was the 1995 Bulls vs Magic ECSF. Talk about a true nightmare playoff blunder for Jordan fans round the world. How will you recover 3ball? Pippen was held back in '95 by Jordan, no? Look to 1994, where the Pippen led Bulls went further, prior to Jordan's comeback.

[Rico2016]

Wade and Bosh in the 13 playoffs: 15.9 PPG and 12.1 PPG.



SUPASTAHS.

*3ball logs off

[3ball]

3ball went offline after RRR3's post :roll:
Wade averaged 20/5/5 on 48% in the Finals, so that's a ton - the stats from the weak East are irrelevant

Also,

D Wade 2013 PO - 15.9 on 46%
C Bosh. 2013 PO - 12.3 on 46%
R Allen. 2013 PO - 10.2 on 43%

Pippen 1996 PO - 16.9 on 39%
Kukoc. 1996 PO - 10.2 on 39%


So lebron had waaaay more help than MJ.

Anything else?

[RRR3]

Wade averaged 20/5/5 on 48% in the Finals, so that's a ton - the stats from the weak East are irrelevant

Also,

D Wade 2013 PO - 15.9 on 46%
C Bosh. 2013 PO - 12.3 on 46%
R Allen. 2013 PO - 10.2 on 43%

Pippen 1996 PO - 16.9 on 39%
Kukoc. 1996 PO - 10.2 on 39%


So lebron had waaaay more help than MJ.

Anything else?
Bosh averaged 12.1 PPG and Kukoc averaged 10.8. Intentionally fudging stats as usual to prop up your hero :roll:

[3ball]

Bosh averaged 12.1 PPG and Kukoc averaged 10.8. Intentionally fudging stats as usual to prop up your hero :roll:
Im doing it by memory and it changes nothing

D Wade 2013 PO - 15.9 on 46%
C Bosh. 2013 PO - 12.1 on 46%
R Allen. 2013 PO - 10.2 on 43%

Pippen 1996 PO - 16.9 on 39%
Kukoc. 1996 PO - 10.8 on 39%


So Bron had way more help.. he's a fraud and you all go for it

[RRR3]

Let’s use your beloved OBPM....

96 playoffs
Pippen 4.2
Kukoc 1.5
Ron harper 1.9


13 playoffs
Wade 1.1
Bosh 0.3
Ray Allen 3.0





Looks like MJ had more help from people playing 20+ minutes

[3ball]

Let’s use your beloved OBPM....

96 playoffs
Pippen 4.2
Kukoc 1.5
Ron harper 1.9


13 playoffs
Wade 1.1
Bosh 0.3
Ray Allen 3.0





Looks like MJ had more help from people playing 20+ minutes

Only the Finals matter, not stats from a weak East



Finals Gamescore

2013 Wade 14.9
2013 Bosh 12.1

1996 Pippen 13.4
1996 Rodman 10.2

1998 Pippen 13.0
1998 Kukoc 11.5


^^^ So Lebron's 2013 run had better help than MJ's 96' and 98'



HOF teammates

13' Lebron - 3
96' Jordan - 2
93' Jordan - 1


^^^ So Lebron's 2013 run had better help than both of MJ's three-peats

[AussieSteve]

They were a kukoc miracle away from an 0-3 deficit

That was one of those weird series where wacky shit happens and the loser overachieved, like the 19' clippers

And it's disgraceful for you to give Pippen credit for that series when he had possibly the worst 1st option performance ever - 21 on 41% with 3 chokes in 1 series (sit-out game, dumb foul game, horrific gm 7).

Now I can understand if Pippen averaged 23/11 and upset Magic's 1 seed to make the conference finals like KJ in 90'... Or of he averaged 31 on 60% to lead the bulls to the Finals like Worthy in the 87' WCF... or drexler leading the blazers to 2 Finals and averaging 26 against the bad boys and then MJ... Or Kemp leading the Sonic's in scoring on the way to the Finals.

But pippen has nothing like this - all he has is a horrible 2nd round performance like Kyrie in 19' playoffs ... It's nothing compared to those other guys, but the rings give him inflated/fake accolades and props that he otherwise wouldn't get just based on his play
..


^^^ fake or inflated accolades that only occurred because the rings boosted his profile, plus he used a 3-peat system that he was nothing without - he'd be just another 18 ppg player without the rings or system

various guys were better (below)




Stockton was better:

Stockton 90-99' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html#1990-1999-sum:per_game):. 22.6 PER.. 0.216 ws.. 5.2 obpm.. 14.9.. 2.9.. 11.9.. 61.4 ts
Pippen... 90-99' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1999-sum:per_game):. 20.2 PER.. 0.169 ws.. 3.3 obpm.. 19.2.. 7.2.. 5.9.. 54.4 ts..

Stockton 90-99' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html#1990-1999-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 19.7 PER.. 0.156 ws.. 4.2 obpm.. 13.8.. 3.0.. 10.5.. 56.0 ts
Pippen... 90-99' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1999-sum:playoffs_per_game):.' 19.4 PER.. 0.154 ws.. 2.8 obpm.. 19.1 ppg.. 7.9.. 5.5.. 52.3 ts


KJ was better:

KJ RS:.. 17.9.. 3.3.. 9.1.. 58.5 ts.. 118 ortg.. 20.7 PER.. 0.178 ws/48
Pip RS:. 16.2.. 6.4.. 5.2.. 53.6 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.6 PER.. 0.146 ws/48

KJ PO:.. 19.3.. 3.3.. 8.9.. 55.7 ts.. 113 ortg.. 19.1 PER.. 0.117 ws/48
Pip PO:. 17.5.. 7.6.. 5.0.. 52.4 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.4 PER.. 0.140 ws/48


Kemp was better:

S KEMP 1996 PO: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. 64.0 ts
PIPPEN 1996 PO: 16.9 ppg..... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts

S KEMP 1996 FINALS:. 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. 63.3 ts
PIPPEN 1996 FINALS:. 15.7 ppg..... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts


You are deranged. Which we already knew, but every single post you make proves it more and more.

Worthy was on the Showtime lakers. HE never led a team past anyone, because HE was never the best player or leader on his team!!

KJ in 1990 scored 22ppg in the series he beat the lakers. TOM CHAMBERS ALSO SCORED 22PPG AND HORNACEK SCORED 21PPG. That RS, Chambers scored 27ppg and KJ scored 22ppg. ie, KJ was NOT the best player on the team.

Kemp never won a playoff series as the best player on his team. And he never averaged more than 21.6ppg in any post season that went beyond the first round!

Regarding Drexler, I'm not saying that Pippen was definitively better than him, but nor was Drexler definitively better that Pippen. I think they were on the same level. Drexler didn't get out of the first round until 1990. In 1990 when he first made the finals, he was one of 3 players on his team who averaged 21ppg in that post season. Ie. He had way more help than Pippen.

When did Stockton ever show that he could carry a scoring load? This seems to be your sole criteria for comparing players. So how can you say Stockton is better? Is that why you have to switch the narrative / benchmark to advanced metrics for this comparison?

Pippen is probably better than all these guys, and certainly better than all except Drexler.

[iamgine]

Were these small forwards also DPOY level defender?

3ball: oh well that's not important.


How does one even argue like this. :lol

[3ball]

You are deranged. Which we already knew, but every single post you make proves it more and more.

Worthy was on the Showtime lakers. HE never led a team past anyone, because HE was never the best player or leader on his team!!

KJ in 1990 scored 22ppg in the series he beat the lakers. TOM CHAMBERS ALSO SCORED 22PPG AND HORNACEK SCORED 21PPG. That RS, Chambers scored 27ppg and KJ scored 22ppg. ie, KJ was NOT the best player on the team.

Kemp never won a playoff series as the best player on his team. And he never averaged more than 21.6ppg in any post season that went beyond the first round!

Regarding Drexler, I'm not saying that Pippen was definitively better than him, but nor was Drexler definitively better that Pippen. I think they were on the same level. Drexler didn't get out of the first round until 1990. In 1990 when he first made the finals, he was one of 3 players on his team who averaged 21ppg in that post season. Ie. He had way more help than Pippen.

When did Stockton ever show that he could carry a scoring load? This seems to be your sole criteria for comparing players. So how can you say Stockton is better? Is that why you have to switch the narrative / benchmark to advanced metrics for this comparison?

Pippen is probably better than all these guys, and certainly better than all except Drexler.
With the money on the line, Pippen wasn't even the 1st option over kukoc, let alone over Magic and Kareem like 31 ppg Worthy in the 87' WCF... Nor did pippen lead the team in scoring in the 87' playoffs, 88' playoffs, or get FMVP in 88'.. Pippen could never do these things

Pippen simply never led his team in scoring like Kemp or Worthy, or led his team to the Finals like worthy, kemp or drexler

And obviously, he can't beat the 1 seed to make the conference finals and win 55 games every year like KJ, while getting 23/11 in his sleep

All these guys were better than pippen by virtue of doing these things that Pippen could never do - pippen's rings simply inflate his inferior accomplishments over the SUPerior achievements of these guys.. And his stats are much worse than these guys of course
.

[3ball]

Were these small forwards also DPOY level defender?

3ball: oh well that's not important.


How does one even argue like this. :lol
The gap between Kemp/Drexler/Worthy and pippen defensively is smaller than the gap offensively

Pippen only gave the Bulls the #7 defense in the first 3-peat without rodman.. lots of guys had higher ranked defenses/better defensive help then that.. you guys overrate how much pippen's defense should count as part of mj's "help"..

Pip is the only guy where you guys consider defense, yet him and MJ were only worth the #7 defense - many guys had more defensive help than this.. bulls had zero rim protection for 6 rings - pippen/mj simply gave the bulls a chance defensively versus other teams that had great rim protection and more good defenders.. him and MJ didn't give the bulls a better defense (only #7) - they simply made them competitive defensively
.

[iamgine]

Pippen didn't give Bulls better defense.......

I guess it must be Steve Kerr then :lol


How does one even argue like this :lol

[3ball]

Pippen didn't give Bulls better defense.......


^^^ then the rest of the league

only #7

#readingcomp





I guess it must be Steve Kerr then :lol


Again, reading comp.. I added the bolded below for your challenged reading comp:

Pippen only gave the Bulls the #7 defense in the first 3-peat without rodman.. lots of guys had higher ranked defenses/better defensive help then that.. you guys overrate how much pippen's defense should count as part of mj's "help"..

Pip is the only guy where you guys consider defense, yet him and MJ were only worth the #7 defense - many guys had more defensive help than this.. bulls had zero rim protection for 6 rings - pippen/mj simply gave the bulls a chance defensively versus other teams that had great rim protection and more good defenders.. him and MJ didn't give the bulls a better defense than the rest of the league (only #7) - they simply made them competitive defensively
.




How does one even argue like this :lol


With the money on the line, Pippen wasn't even the 1st option over kukoc, let alone over Magic and Kareem like 31 ppg Worthy in the 87' WCF... Nor did pippen lead the team in scoring in the 87' playoffs, 88' playoffs, or get FMVP in 88' like Worthy.. Pippen could never do these things or be the top scorer on a Finals team, let alone champion

Pippen simply never led his team in scoring like Kemp or Worthy, or led his team to the Finals like worthy, kemp or drexler

And obviously, he can't beat the 1 seed to make the conference finals and win 55 games every year like KJ, while getting 23/11 in his sleep

All these guys were better than pippen by virtue of doing these things that Pippen could never do - pippen's rings simply inflate his inferior accomplishments/stats over the SUPerior achievements of these guys.. And his stats are much worse than these guys of course

[Manny98]

Only the Finals matter, not stats from a weak East



Finals Gamescore

2013 Wade 14.9
2013 Bosh 12.1

1996 Pippen 13.4
1996 Rodman 10.2

1998 Pippen 13.0
1998 Kukoc 11.5


^^^ So Lebron's 2013 run had better help than MJ's 96' and 98'



HOF teammates

13' Lebron - 3
96' Jordan - 2
93' Jordan - 1


^^^ So Lebron's 2013 run had better help than both of MJ's three-peats
Dis nikka moving goalposts like a motherf*cker :facepalm

[3ball]

Did nikka moving goalposts like a motherf*cker :facepalm
You did it first by bringing up OBPM after the raw stats showed that Wade/Bosh produced more in the 13' playoffs than Pippen/Kukoc in the 97' playoffs ..

So I brought up gamescore and HOF's

bruh, the 13' Heat had 4 HOF - their 2nd option was basically Pippen in the Finals (20/4/5 on 48%) and the Heat had a top 3 PF and the pre-curry goat shooter.. and birdman, haslem, and Battier as good role players.. that's just an unfair assemblage of talent

[Hey Yo]

You did it first by bringing up OBPM after the raw stats showed that Wade/Bosh produced more in the 13' playoffs than Pippen/Kukoc in the 97' playoffs ..

So I brought up gamescore and HOF's

bruh, the 13' Heat had 4 HOF - their 2nd option was basically Pippen in the Finals (20/4/5 on 48%) and the Heat had a top 3 PF and the pre-curry goat shooter.. and birdman, haslem, and Battier as good role players.. that's just an unfair assemblage of talent
All 4 combined for 3pts in 67mins of play in game 7 of the 2013 Finals.


WITNESS

[3ball]

All 4 combined for 3pts in 67mins of play in game 7 of the 2013 Finals.


WITNESS
Lebron = net negative for the 2013 Finals

so the Heat lost when Lebron was on the floor, and only won because various teammates were positive - his teammates literally saved him

only the colluding lebron can win a title being a net negative

[Hey Yo]

Lebron = net negative for the 2013 Finals

so the Heat lost when Lebron was on the floor, and only won because various teammates were positive - his teammates literally saved him

only the colluding lebron can win a title being a net negative
All said and done, LeBron led his team in points, rebounds, assists and steals when he was on the floor.



WITNESS


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b3/ea/20/b3ea20d28bbe5c37e9db33ec7e5913b1.gif

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[Ainosterhaspie]

Lebron = net negative for the 2013 Finals

so the Heat lost when Lebron was on the floor, and only won because various teammates were positive - his teammates literally saved him

only the colluding lebron can win a title being a net negative

Because of one bad game where he was -31. Take that out and he's plus 30 for the series. I wonder why his overall +/- was so bad. Maybe because he shared a ton of minutes with Wade who was overall a -50 and change. In the games the Heat won they were strongly positive with James on the floor.

[3ball]

WITNESS

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b3/ea/20/b3ea20d28bbe5c37e9db33ec7e5913b1.gif


LeBron led his team in points, rebounds, assists and steals when he was on the floor.


^^^ but at the expense of the team, hence the team losing with him on the floor (net negative)

#LeCancer-ball

That's why he needs the off-ball skillset to get a larger chunk of his points playing off teammates, so they can have maximum opportunity to play real basketball and max their stats, rather than spot-up to max LeWestbrook's stats

Ultimately, Lebron is Westbrooking while teammates, brand, and team ceiling are suppressed.. so he must team-hop for the best young talent to basically force through his suboptimal style and win.. and despite all this - he still mostly loses, 3/9 (no surprise - one should expect an inferior brand to mostly lose at the highest level regardless of supporting talent)
..

[3ball]

Because of one bad game where he was -31. Take that out and he's plus 30 for the series. I wonder why his overall +/- was so bad. Maybe because he shared a ton of minutes with Wade who was overall a -50 and change. In the games the Heat won they were strongly positive with James on the floor.
If we add up the heat's play with Lebron on the court, we see that the heat lost

If not for other teammates having net positives (mainly Ray Allen), Lebron loses that series

Those are the unpleasant facts, that don't exist for MJ - so accept it as a legit knock on his career.. yeah, I get it - his game 7 was great, and against most guys who have similar struggles that's enough to put Lebron over them... But not MJ, and several other guys that were never net negatives, and were generally regarded as more timely and able to get the defense more jittery/mistake-prone down the stretch of games.

[Hey Yo]

If we add up the heat's play with Lebron on the court, we see that the heat lost

If not for other teammates having net positives (mainly Ray Allen), Lebron loses that series

Those are the unpleasant facts, that don't exist for MJ - so accept it as a legit knock on his career.. yeah, I get it - his game 7 was great, and against most guys who have similar struggles that's enough to put Lebron over them... But not MJ, and several other guys that were never net negatives, and were generally regarded as more timely and able to get the defense more jittery/mistake-prone down the stretch of games.
Do the Heat win if LeBron (300+ MP) and Allen (193MP) switch minutes played??


checkmate, chico.

[3ball]

Do the Heat win if LeBron (300+ MP) and Allen (193MP) switch minutes played??


checkmate, chico.
Who cares

MJ was never a net negative, so he never needed 193 minutes of positive play from a teammate to win

Checkmate

[Ainosterhaspie]

I thought this thread was about Pippen. Why is it all of a sudden about James in the 2013 finals.

One thing is clear, Airball's double standards are on full display. James sucks because he was a net negative in the 2013 finals (nevermind the fact that he was +44 in the wins, bub just focus on numbers skewed by one bad game).

OK, so let's look at how brilliant sidekick Wade did by that metric. Hmmm, worse than -50 overall, - 8 in their wins. Sounds like the real net negative for the team. But here we are treated to Wade's 19.6 ppg in the series (ignore his poor performance in earlier rounds. Look at the shiny 20 points on 0.505 TS%). 20 ppg. Thats a fine sidekick there. +/- is ignored now because it doesn't help the agenda.

Just to recap, LeBron is +44 in wins, Wade -8. LeBron is -1 overall, Wade is worse than -50. But Wade is great support and LeBron is a net negative because agenda. Airball's tried and true strategy. Round everything dishonestly to support agenda, and show zero consistency with how stats are applied. They only matter when they support the agenda and are to be ignored otherwise.

How does Wade's 13 finals compare to Pippen's 98 finals? There Pippen was +28 for the series but only scored 15.7 ppg on 0.502 TS%. Wade's scoring is marginally better, but that +/- gap is enormous. In game 6 Pippen scored just 8 points, but was +16, much better than Jordan's anemic +2. But here I'm sure Airball wants us to just look at Pippen's points and conclude he was a useless sidekick. Got to advance that agenda at all costs even if it means shitting on legends of the game amiright?

In the 97 finals Pippen had a better +/- than MJ at +24 to MJ's 22. Guess Airball thinks Pippen should have gotten FMVP that year. No? Oh, I see ppg matters now since it fits the agenda.

[3ball]

I thought this thread was about Pippen. Why is it all of a sudden about James in the 2013 finals.

One thing is clear, Airball's double standards are on full display. James sucks because he was a net negative in the 2013 finals (nevermind the fact that he was +44 in the wins, bub just focus on numbers skewed by one bad game).


^^^ Yes, he sucks... compared to Jordan...

The net negative for Lebron is one of many examples that MJ had to do more to win.. again, just one example of many

MJ never won as a net negative, and he also never won with 52.9 ts like lebron in those same Finals, or 25 ppg..

Here's all the things from the 2013 Finals that MJ never got to win with: 1) 25 ppg on 52.9 ts.. 2) net negative... 3) saved by a teammate... 4) getting his broke jumper successfully exploited for 6 games (23 on 43% thru 6 games; 16 on 39% thru 3 games, aka 2011 all over again)





OK, so let's look at how brilliant sidekick Wade did by that metric. Hmmm, worse than -50 overall, - 8 in their wins. Sounds like the real net negative for the team. But here we are treated to Wade's 19.6 ppg in the series (ignore his poor performance in earlier rounds. Look at the shiny 20 points on 0.505 TS%). 20 ppg. Thats a fine sidekick there. +/- is ignored now because it doesn't help the agenda.


We don't need Wade's stats because we have HOF Ray Allen, Birdman and Chalmers all getting +28 or better

These guys saved Lebron because the Heat lost when Lebron played (he was a net negative)

And btw, we don't care about Wade's stats from a conference where lebron himself only needed 22 ppg to win the conference finals (2014), let alone Wade.. Wade took the Eastern conference playoffs off

(Edit: I think Birdman's total +/- was a little less than 28 because he only played 5 games, but his per game +/- is over 4)





Just to recap, LeBron is +44 in wins, Wade -8. LeBron is -1 overall, Wade is worse than -50.


^^^ indeed, Lebron was a big positive in wins, but still a net negative overall, so Lebron was absolutely horrific in lossss, aka blown away - so no fight in him.. :confusedshrug:... beta bambi mentality, not assassin.. :facepalm ... no wonder he's 3/9... :rolleyes: .. :kobe:





But Wade is great support and LeBron is a net negative because agenda. Airball's tried and true strategy. Round everything dishonestly to support agenda, and show zero consistency with how stats are applied. They only matter when they support the agenda and are to be ignored otherwise.


No, Lebron is net negative because he was infact a net negative - the Heat lost when he played

Otoh, MJ never won as a net negative, and he also never won with 52.9 ts like lebron in those same Finals, or 25 ppg...

Here's all the things from the 2013 Finals that MJ never got to win with: 1) 25 ppg on 52.9 ts.. 2) net negative... 3) saved by a teammate... 4) getting his broke jumper successfully exploited for 6 games (23 on 43% thru 6 games; 16 on 39% thru 3 games, aka 2011 all over again)





How does Wade's 13 finals compare to Pippen's 98 finals? There Pippen was +28 for the series but only scored 15.7 ppg on 0.502 TS%.


Again, Wade's +/- doesn't matter because Lebron had 3 other guys to match Pippen's +28 - Allen, Birdman and Chalmers all had +28 or better





In the 97 finals Pippen had a better +/- than MJ at +24 to MJ's 22. Guess Airball thinks Pippen should have gotten FMVP that year. No? Oh, I see ppg matters now since it fits the agenda

.
Don't get mad at the messenger - I'm just pointing out that the Heat lost when lebron played, and his +/- was 30 points behind 3 teammates.. u counter by saying MJ's was 2 less than Pip's?... Ur scrambling and panicking bruh - the facts are closing in

[Ainosterhaspie]

Do you understand I'm not even arguing with you. You are all over the place with your arguments. It's impossible to discuss anything with you rationally because you do what you're doing here, flitting from one half baked thought to the next, one deceptive, misleading stat after another.

I'm not going to argue James v Jordan with you. I'm just trying to point out how your reasoning is a complete mess. One moment you talk about ppg and second option quality based purely on that. When it doesn't fit your narrative you abandon it and go to +/-. When that shows the guy you've been hailing as a great player did poorly, you hop to random role players. Wade's ppg matter not his +/-. Role players +/- matters not their ppg.

You constantly act as if only big names matter. Now suddenly you want to bring role players into the discussion when your comparison of big names gets destroyed. You claim Wade is better than Pippen because ppg, then in the next breath attack LeBron for his +/- (in a thread about how Pippen compares to other forwards in the 90s for some odd reason). So if individual +/- means anything (hint, it doesn't) then 97 Pippen is better than 13 Wade and he was even better than 97 Jordan. Can't have that so here come the role player stats.

I'm not sure why you bring up the Conference finals, I wasn't talking about that. I was only talking about Wade's finals +/- in 13 which was really bad.

[3ball]

So if individual +/- means anything (hint, it doesn't)


a team must be winning with the #1 guy on the floor - so plus/minus matters for the top guy, while everyone else is a function of matchups and how players fit with the #1 guy and each other.

So accept it - it's a legit knock in the MJ/Lebron comparison that Lebron won a Finals while being a net negative

But understand that no one thing makes MJ better - this is just one thing of many clear-cut examples that show MJ is better





You constantly act as if only big names matter. Now suddenly you want to bring role players into the discussion when your comparison of big names gets destroyed.



Where?... :biggums: ... You're imagining things

Old Wade > prime Pippen:



Wade. 13-14' reg. season (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2013-2014-sum:per_game):. 20.3 ppg.. 53.1 fg.. 23.1 PER
Wade. 13-16' reg. season (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game):. 20.2 ppg.. 49.3 fg.. 22.0 PER
Pippen 91-96' reg season (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:per_game):. 20.0 ppg.. 48.9 fg.. 21.3 PER
Wade. 15-16' reg. season (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game):. 20.1 ppg.. 46.3 fg.. 20.8 PER
Wade. 11-14' reg. season (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game):. 22.0 ppg.. 47.5 fg.. 24.5 PER

Wade.. 13-16' playoffs (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2013-2016-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 17.9 ppg.. 47.5 fg.. 19.5 PER
Pippen 96-98' playoffs (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 17.6 ppg.. 40.8 fg.. 19.0 PER

Wade.. 10-12' playoffs (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2010-2012-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 24.6 ppg.. 48.4 fg.. 24.7 PER
Wade. 11-14' playoffs (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game):.. 20.3 ppg.. 47.5 fg.. 21.6 PER
Pippen 91-93' playoffs (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 20.3 ppg.. 47.8 fg.. 19.6 PER





You claim Wade is better than Pippen because ppg, then in the next breath attack LeBron for his +/- (in a thread about how Pippen compares to other forwards in the 90s for some odd reason).


Old Wade has higher ppg, efficiency and PER , not just ppg

and PER measures everything.. see the stats above

[ImKobe]

3Ball is right about this. Did Pippen ever play as well as Wade did during the Heat's 27-game win streak in 2013? Or Wade putting up 32 points with 6 steals in Game 4 of the 2013 Finals to save the Heat from going down 1 - 3?

Wade's ranked higher than Pippen all-time for a reason, we all know he's a better individual player and 3rd best at his position all-time while Pippen's a weak argument for even a top 5 SF.

[bigkingsfan]

3Ball is right about this. Did Pippen ever play as well as Wade did during the Heat's 27-game win streak in 2013? Or Wade putting up 32 points with 6 steals in Game 4 of the 2013 Finals to save the Heat from going down 1 - 3?

Wade's ranked higher than Pippen all-time for a reason, we all know he's a better individual player and 3rd best at his position all-time while Pippen's a weak argument for even a top 5 SF.
Slippery slope 12th/14be

[Round Mound]

If Plus/Minus is important then Scottie was Easily The Best SF of the 90's:

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 6.3 (6th)
1991-92 NBA 6.5 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.3 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 8.3 (2nd)
1994-95 NBA 7.8 (2nd)
1995-96 NBA 6.8 (4th)
1996-97 NBA 6.6 (6th)
1997-98 NBA 5.8 (3rd)
1999-00 NBA 4.2 (15th)
Career NBA 4.7 (24th)

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

If Plus/Minus is important then Scottie was Easily The Best SF of the 90's:

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 6.3 (6th)
1991-92 NBA 6.5 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.3 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 8.3 (2nd)
1994-95 NBA 7.8 (2nd)
1995-96 NBA 6.8 (4th)
1996-97 NBA 6.6 (6th)
1997-98 NBA 5.8 (3rd)
1999-00 NBA 4.2 (15th)
Career NBA 4.7 (24th)

:confusedshrug:
Bird had higher defensive BPM than Pippen because DBPM simply counts defensive rebounds, steals and blocks, thereby favoring guys with high defensive rebounds like Bird.

For that reason, total BPM (the stat you posted) isn't a viable stat and only offensive BPM (OBPM) can be used..

So post the leaders for OBPM and lets see where Pippen ranks among the best SF's.. Or PPG.. Or PER.. all of these are superior measures to BPM, which is biased in favor of defensive rebounders

[Round Mound]

Bird had higher defensive BPM than Pippen because DBPM simply counts defensive rebounds, steals and blocks, thereby favoring guys with high defensive rebounds like Bird.

For that reason, total BPM (the stat you posted) isn't a viable stat and only offensive BPM (OBPM) can be used..

So post the leaders for OBPM and lets see where Pippen ranks among the best SF's.. Or PPG.. Or PER.. all of these are superior measures to BPM, which is biased in favor of defensive rebounders

Bird was a great team defender while Pippen was a great all around defender (team defender, 1 on 1 defender, perimeter defender etc). Not to mention the better playmaker of the Bulls, the best defensive player of the Bulls and the 2nd best driving, slashing, coast to coast, finishing and dunker of the Bulls. He also managed to average 8.7 RPG in his only season as the man and 22 PPG on 49.1% FG which is pretty good aswell.

Pippen sacrificed stats in order for Jordan to shine. Then he did all the dirty work while being the best end to end defender and playmaker fo the Bulls.

Pippen is a player you have to watch since he sacrificed stats as a 2nd option.

[3ball]

Pippen sacrificed stats in order for Jordan to shine.


^^^ Statistically false - Pippen's highs alongside MJ (21.0 and 7.0 apg) are higher than without MJ (22.0 and 5.6)

So he wasn't sacrificing anything, and his raw production was infact boosted by Jordan - he played to capacity (especially his assist capacity) next to MJ, while scoring 90-98% of his scoring capacity





while being the best end to end defender and playmaker for the Bulls


Can Pippen average 30/9/11 at point guard like MJ did in 1989, including a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games?

Not a chance - MJ was regarded as an equal or better point guard than Magic and Isiah after just a few games at the new position - he also led the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen and he averaged 11 apg in the 1991 Finals..

Pippen is nowhere near MJ as a creator, and it's obvious that his handle is basic - he isn't a break-down guy off-the-dribble.. MJ easily beats Pippen as a passer.





while being the best end to end defender


DPOY finishes

..........MJ...... Pippen
1988...1st....... n/a
1989...5th....... n/a
1990...5th....... n/a
1991...t-7th.... t-7th
1992...t-3rd.... t-3rd
1993...2nd....... n/a
1996...6th....... 2nd
1997...5th....... 4th
1998...4th....... 9th


Pippen only beats MJ twice in 9 years, so MJ was the better defender, despite carrying the goat scoring load and goat gap between 1st and 2nd option (10-20 more than Pippen in every Finals and playoff series.. edit: Pippen was within single digits of MJ once in a series vs Miami)
.

[bigkingsfan]

..........MJ...... Pippen
1991...t-7th.... t-7th
1992...t-3rd.... t-3rd
1993...2nd....... n/a
1996...6th....... 2nd

.
That shows they were pretty much equal defensively in their prime together. :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

All 4 combined for 3pts in 67mins of play in game 7 of the 2013 Finals.


WITNESS


issa wrap

[And1AllDay]

sidebar

why is jordan and his fans scared of all six of his rings :oldlol:

which was his best again :oldlol:

[3ball]

sidebar

why is jordan and his fans scared of all six of his rings :oldlol:

which was his best again :oldlol:
his 6 rings are better than any ring of lebron's because everyone feels the 16' warriors win in 5 if Draymond doesn't get suspended

2012 is infact Lebron's best ring.. he was actually horrible in 2013 and got lucky in 2016 that dray was suspended

[And1AllDay]

his 6 rings are better than any ring of lebron's because everyone feels the 16' warriors win in 5 if Draymond doesn't get suspended

2012 is infact Lebron's best ring.. he was actually horrible in 2013 and got lucky in 2016 that dray was suspended

ill write for you again

why is jordan and his fans scared of all six of his rings :oldlol:

which was his best again :oldlol:

[madmax]

sidebar

why is jordan and his fans scared of all six of his rings :oldlol:

which was his best again :oldlol:

:lol
I guess the reality check of rings collected against part-time plumbers and mechanics has hit them hard this time around...

[3ball]

ill write for you again

why is jordan and his fans scared of all six of his rings :oldlol:

which was his best again :oldlol:
Rings are never "scary"

Ur just mad because lebron only has 3 rings and only 1 without luck (12')