Why did Shaq reach multiple finals without PJax, but MJ/Kobe couldnt once sniff

[FultzNationRISE]

a conference finals without GOAT coach?



Why?

[AirTupac]

Are you really trying to fault guys for having 1 coach for most of their careers? Not everyone can be Lecancer and get coaches fired 3 times a year.

[guy]

Are you really trying to fault guys for having 1 coach for most of their careers? Not everyone can be Lecancer and get coaches fired 3 times a year.

This. :oldlol: random bullshit ass arbitrary accomplishments

[guy]

And Jordan DID make an ECF with Doug Collins as the coach. Let me guess, Phil was an assistant so it doesn

[LAmbruh]

What's even crazier is once Pjax left LA, Kobe was unable to escape lottery/2nd round sweeps with COTY's like D'antoni, Brown and Byron

[FultzNationRISE]

[QUOTE=guy]And Jordan DID make an ECF with Doug Collins as the coach. Let me guess, Phil was an assistant so it doesn

[3ball]

[QUOTE=guy]And Jordan DID make an ECF with Doug Collins as the coach. Let me guess, Phil was an assistant so it doesn

[superduper]

Why did Shaq get swept 7 times before needing the 2nd best SG in history to bail out his career?

[guy]

Ok, but they already had Pippen by that time so my point still stands.

The ****. You never mentioned Pippen anywhere so how does your point stand? :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

Are you really trying to fault guys for having 1 coach for most of their careers? Not everyone can be Lecancer and get coaches fired 3 times a year.
That fathead of Kobe on your bedroom ceiling played for more coaches than LeBron did.

[Hey Yo]

Why did Shaq get swept 7 times before needing the 2nd best SG in history to bail out his career?
Maybe because he had no problem starting his career with an expansion team rather than cry his way to a contender like 18yr old FroBE did.

[Hey Yo]

Boom

As a 6 seed no less

He took the champs 6 tough games in ECF despite only 9.7 ppg on 39.7% from Pippen.... Meanwhile, Lebron loses to the Magic with 18 on 38% from Mo, or loses to the Spurs with a much younger core and 3 HOF teammates (Wade/Bosh/Allen)
LOL @ thinking averages of 15-4-2.... 14-5-1 and 10-4-1 are HOF numbers

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

LOL @ thinking averages of 15-4-2.... 14-5-1 and 10-4-1 are HOF numbers

:roll: :roll: :roll:
MJ won with those numbers when his guys got old

So as usual, lebron fails to do something that MJ did. . And yet again, you excuse him for it... :facepalm

[Turbo Slayer]

MJ won with those numbers when his guys got old, and his teammates weren't HOF's except pippen

So as usual, lebron fails to do something that MJ did. . And yet again, you excuse him for it... :facepalm
:biggums: 3ball is crazy and a lier

[3ball]

:biggums: 3ball is crazy and a lier
In the 98' Finals, Pippen averaged 15 on 41% just like 14' wade... and rodman averaged 4/8

So again, mj won with those numbers and lebron didn't... This is the story of their entire careers (mj winning with less)

Btw, Pippen also averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals and rodman averaged 4/8 for the entire 97 playoffs

[Hey Yo]

MJ won with those numbers when his guys got old

So as usual, lebron fails to do something that MJ did. . And yet again, you excuse him for it... :facepalm
Nobody's citing MJ's teammates as HOF'ers for the reason they won. The entire league was basically shit at the time.

Those 2 Utah teams don't sniff the Finals 2013-2018.

[3ball]

Nobody's citing MJ's teammates as HOF'ers for the reason they won. The entire league was basically shit at the time.


Exactly.. MJ won with shit help and lebron couldn't:

1) MJ won the 96' Finals with Pip at 15 on 34%
2) MJ won in 97' while Rodman averaged 4/8 for entire playoffs
3) MJ won 98' Finals with Pip at 15 on 41% and rodman at 4/8 again

So MJ won with Pippen playing like garbage, while Lebron loses with a weak Wade in 14', despite having an extra star in bosh.. the problem is that lebron couldn't activate Bosh because he's been reduced to spot-up shooter.. so it's all on lebron





Those 2 Utah teams don't sniff the Finals 2013-2018.


It was a big 3 vs big 3 format from 2013-2018

If you gave those jazz a 3rd star, they'd destroy today's teams
.

[Hey Yo]

Exactly.. MJ won with shit help and lebron couldn't:

1) MJ won the 96' Finals with Pip at 15 on 34%
2) MJ won in 97' while Rodman averaged 4/8 for entire playoffs
3) MJ won 98' Finals with Pip at 15 on 41% and rod an at 4/8 again

So MJ won with Pippen playing like garbage, while Lebron loses with a weak Wade in 14', despite having an extra star in bosh.. the problem is that lebron couldn't activate Bosh because he's been reduced to spot-up shooter.. so it's all on lebron



It was a big 3 vs big 3 format from 2013-2018

If you gave those jazz a 3rd star, they'd destroy today's teams
Why bring up 1996? Rodman's impact was much higher than 41% MJ and deserved FMVP

But I thought Hornacek was a star for Utah?...... All of a sudden he isn't anymore???

[FultzNationRISE]

My GOODNESS.... :eek:


Hey Yo taking a shovel and BURYING these c0ckroaches :bowdown: :bowdown:

[3ball]

Why bring up 1996? Rodman's impact was much higher than 41% MJ and deserved FMVP


1) the Bulls win regardless if Rodman plays great (96' Finals), or gets 4/8 like he did for the entire 97' playoffs and the 98' Finals... So his impact is drastically overrated .. :confusedshrug:... proof is a wonderful thing .. :applause:

2) Rodman let Kemp dominate - Kemp got FMVP votes






But I thought Hornacek was a star for Utah?...... All of a sudden he isn't anymore???


1-time all-stars aren't "stars"

But he was a great role player, i.e. better than danny green

[Hey Yo]

1) the Bulls win regardless if Rodman plays great (96' Finals), or gets 4/8 like he did for the entire 97' playoffs and the 98' Finals... So his impact is drastically overrated .. :confusedshrug:... proof is a wonderful thing .. :applause:

2) Rodman let Kemp dominate - Kemp got FMVP votes




1-time all-stars aren't "stars"

But he was a great role player, i.e. better than danny green
So why did Rodman get votes also?? Why didn't the voters see the obvious that he was letting Kemp dominate??


Glad we won't see you citing Mo Williams anymore.

[ImKobe]

Why bring up 1996? Rodman's impact was much higher than 41% MJ and deserved FMVP

But I thought Hornacek was a star for Utah?...... All of a sudden he isn't anymore???

How was his impact much higher? Care to explain? Did he shut Kemp down in that series? No. Did he score a lot of points? No. So you're giving FMVP to a rebounder who had one great game?

Jordan's play in the first 3 games is why they were up 3 - 0 to begin with. He was by far the best player.

Games 1-3

Jordan - 31/5/5/2 46/50/81 shooting
Rodman - 7/14/1/1 47% shooting with 57% from the line

Do you give FMVP to that guy? Really? I'd understand if he shut down Kemp and they won because of that, but in reality Rodman was the 3rd best player for the Bulls in that series.


So why did Rodman get votes also?? Why didn't the voters see the obvious that he was letting Kemp dominate??


Glad we won't see you citing Mo Williams anymore.

Rodman got votes because he had a great Game 6, but reality is that no player who's best Finals game is 10 points is going to win FMVP unless they really shut the opponent's best player down.

[Hey Yo]

How was his impact much higher? Care to explain? Did he shut Kemp down in that series? No. Did he score a lot of points? No. So you're giving FMVP to a rebounder who had one great game?

Jordan's play in the first 3 games is why they were up 3 - 0 to begin with. He was by far the best player.

Games 1-3

Jordan - 31/5/5/2 46/50/81 shooting
Rodman - 7/14/1/1 47% shooting with 57% from the line

Do you give FMVP to that guy? Really? I'd understand if he shut down Kemp and they won because of that, but in reality Rodman was the 3rd best player for the Bulls in that series.
You act as if Rodman only guarded Kemp. He did it all on the boards and defense.

He avg. 7 offensive rebounds a game. That's pretty sic and a lot of 2nd chance opportunities.

[Hey Yo]

]Rodman got votes because he had a great Game 6, but reality is that no player who's best Finals game is 10 points is going to win FMVP unless they really shut the opponent's best player down.
:oldlol:

:rolleyes:

[stalkerforlife]

[QUOTE=guy]And Jordan DID make an ECF with Doug Collins as the coach. Let me guess, Phil was an assistant so it doesn

[ImKobe]

You act as if Rodman only guarded Kemp. He did it all on the boards and defense.

He avg. 7 offensive rebounds a game. That's pretty sic and a lot of 2nd chance opportunities.

Wow cool. He created seven 2nd chances a game. Jordan scored 20 more points per game. Know what's better than creating potentially 14 points? Scoring 20 more points. People want to say Jordan was inefficient, Rodman averaged 7.5 points on 51.9%TS.

He did his part in the win but to say that he should even be considered for FMVP is laughable. Jordan shouldn't get FMVP because he had two bad shooting games? Him being by far the best player on his team in the first 3 wins shouldn't be taken into account?

[3ball]

So why did Rodman get votes also?? Why didn't the voters see the obvious that he was letting Kemp dominate??


Because there's numerous people that vote for FMVP, and a few people usually vote differently.. it's standard for another player to get a couple votes
.

[Hey Yo]

1-time all-stars aren't "stars"
RIP Mo Williams

[ImKobe]

:oldlol:

:rolleyes:

So he didn't? Was he anywhere close to as good as he was in Game 6 in any other games in that series? Did he have anywhere near as close of an impact in the other 3 wins? The answer is no.

[SpaceJam2]

RIP Mo Williams


RIP Mo

Bless up

[3ball]

RIP Mo Williams (only a 1-time all-star and therefore not a "star")


You didn't need a star to win the East in 2009 - did Dwight have a star teammate when he made the Finals in 2009?

How about AI, Kidd or Lebron from 01-07?

You simply didn't need a star or a strong cast to make the Finals at that time, so Lebron should've made the Finals in 09' and 10' like he was heavily favored to do





Glad we won't see you citing Mo Williams anymore.



09' Mo was far better than 89' Pippen:


09' Mo Will RS:. 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS:.. 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF:.ni 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd:. 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. beat 'o #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)

* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper


^^^ Looks like Lebron had the far better cast but lost to a worse team than MJ defeated in 89'.. :confusedshrug:

Mo was also better than 19' Middleton:


MO.... WILLIAMS....:. 18/3/5.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
KHRIS MIDDLETON:. 18/5/3.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp

[warriorfan]

Low iq thread

[RRR3]

You didn't need a star to win the East in 2009 - did Dwight have a star teammate when he made the Finals in 2009?

How about AI, Kidd or Lebron from 01-07?

You simply didn't need a star or a strong cast to make the Finals at that time, so Lebron should've made the Finals in 09' and 10' like he was heavily favored to do




09' Mo was far better than 89' Pippen:


09' Mo Will RS:. 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS:.. 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF:.ni 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd:. 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. beat 'o #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)

* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper


^^^ Looks like Lebron had the far better cast but lost to a worse team than MJ defeated in 89'.. :confusedshrug:

Mo was also better than 19' Middleton:


MO.... WILLIAMS....:. 18/3/5.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
KHRIS MIDDLETON:. 18/5/3.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp
AI literally had DPOY Mutombo :biggums:
Dwight had Rashard Lewis (2x all-star, way better than Mo Williams) and Hedo Turkoglu (Not an all star ever but he was valuable)

Kidd didn’t have much tho

[guy]

[QUOTE=RRR3]AI literally had DPOY Mutombo :biggums:
Dwight had Rashard Lewis (2x all-star, way better than Mo Williams) and Hedo Turkoglu (Not an all star ever but he was valuable)

Kidd didn

[superduper]

You really going to act like you wouldn’t be calling those dudes trash if they were Lebron’s teammates? :rolleyes:

Exactly.

Just as they would be calling Siakam/FVV/Green(coming up this year)/Powell/Lowry/etc trash if they were Bran's teammates.

[RRR3]

You really going to act like you wouldn’t be calling those dudes trash if they were Lebron’s teammates? :rolleyes:
Yes. Find posts of me calling legitimate all-stars LeBron has played with trash. Bet you can’t.

[guy]

[QUOTE=RRR3]Yes. Find posts of me calling legitimate all-stars LeBron has played with trash. Bet you can

[superduper]

[QUOTE=guy]I don

[RRR3]

Rashard Lewis was never “nearly as good” as Bosh based on what? He put up 22.4 PPG on 58.7 TS% and an OBPM of 4.4 in 2007. Bosh’s career high in OBPM was 3.0.

[3ball]

AI literally had DPOY Mutombo :biggums:


But Dikembe gave up 40/20 in the Finals to Shaq, while Ostertag was sweeping Shaq in 97' and 98'

So if I'm choosing between 2 good offensive players (stockton/malone) or 1 offensive/1 defensive player (ai/dikembe), it's obviously better to go with 2 offensive players and get some unathletic white guy (ostertag) to play hard defense.. ostertag can mimic dikembe better than some stiff can mimic malone's offensive prowess.

That's why offensive "help" matters way more (and costs way more) when considering how much help a team has then defensive "help"

And a teammate's individual defense essentially doesn't matter when comparing the "help" that 2 guys have because defense is a team effort and other teammates or a system can make up 1 player's deficit - the best example is Lebron's 07' Cavs, who had a bevy of good defenders that gave them the #4 defense, while dikembe only gave the sixers the #5 defense - so AI had to carry the Sixers more, as the playoff stats show - 33 ppg for 01' Iverson vs 25 for 07' Lebron.





Dwight had Rashard Lewis (2x all-star, way better than Mo Williams) and Hedo Turkoglu (Not an all star ever but he was valuable)

Kidd didn’t have much tho



Rashard Lewis wasn't better than Mo in 09'


Mo Will' 09'.... 17.2.. 3.3.. 4.1.. 58.8 ts.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws.. 3.0 obpm.. 3.1 vorp
R Lewis 09'.... 17.7.. 5.6.. 2.6.. 58.0 ts.. 16.8 PER.. 0.160 ws.. 2.7 obpm.. 4.5 vorp


both were borderline all-stars - you're making my point that they had similar casts

and you forget that Lebron had 2-time all-star Zydrunas as well... Hedo was a decent role player but so was Varejao (all-defense) or Delonte
.

[Manny98]

You really going to act like you wouldn’t be calling those dudes trash if they were Lebron’s teammates? :rolleyes:
lol I have never seen a LeBron Stan tear down and diminish his teammates the way youJordan stans (mainly 3ball) do with Pippen :oldlol:

I have literally said AD is the most talented Power Forward the league has ever seen and that Kyrie is one of the most skilled players of all time

I don't see the need to tear down a players teammates in order to prop him up it's pathetic

[MrFonzworth]

Ok, but they already had Pippen by that time so my point still stands.
:roll::roll::roll:

[guy]

lol I have never seen a LeBron Stan tear down and diminish his teammates the way youJordan stans (mainly 3ball) do with Pippen :oldlol:

I have literally said AD is the most talented Power Forward the league has ever seen and that Kyrie is one of the most skilled players of all time

I don't see the need to tear down a players teammates in order to prop him up it's pathetic

First off, that

[guy]

[QUOTE=RRR3]Rashard Lewis was never

[AirBonner]

We all saw what MJ ball capped out as. 1-9 :(

[GimmeThat]

similar to the adult film Taboo had a longer series count than Taboo - American Style yet doesn't necessarily make it the better standalone franchise

[RRR3]

Oh so now advanced stats matter? But when Chris Bosh was top 4 in PER the season prior to playing with Lebron, it didn’t mean shit??? :oldlol:

I don’t even need advanced statistics. Bosh is clearly a more versatile scorer and better defender and rebounder. Rashard in his prime was playing on losing teams when he wasn’t even the teams best player. Yea, it’s not that close.
OBPM is a lot more reliable than PER.

Carlos Boozer and Hassan Whiteside have been top 10 in PER. Enes Kanter is a superstar according to PER. Also what the hell did Bosh ever do as first option?

[guy]

OBPM is a lot more reliable than PER.

Carlos Boozer and Hassan Whiteside have been top 10 in PER. Enes Kanter is a superstar according to PER. Also what the hell did Bosh ever do as first option?

Not much, but more then Rashard. Either way that

[RRR3]

Not much, but more then Rashard. Either way that’s not the comparison. As a 2nd option with someone better on his team, his teams were having 30 win seasons. He’s clearly on a lower level then Bosh.
BPM says otherwise. They’re comparable whether you like it or not.

[Rico2016]

We all saw what MJ ball capped out as. 1-9 :(


And wow, if true this is detrimental to Michael.

Capped out at 1-9 before the arrival of star Pippen and PJAX? Is this true?

[guy]

[QUOTE=RRR3]BPM says otherwise. They