Ukrainian Prosecutor was told to Back Off Investigation

[rufuspaul]

Well well well (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ukraine-prosecutor-biden-burisma-back-off-state-department-files)


[Quote]
The fired prosecutor at the center of the Ukraine controversy said during a private interview with President Trump's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani earlier this year that he was told to back off an investigation involving a natural gas firm that was linked to Joe Biden

[iamgine]

Is this gonna help impeach Trump? If not, who cares?

[rufuspaul]

Is this gonna help impeach Trump? If not, who cares?


It's meant to muddy the waters. The MSM has exonerated Biden without really doing any investigating. Same with congress. Trump may still get impeached but this strategy is designed to drag Biden down with him.


[Quote]
President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko told Mr. Shokin not to investigate Burisma as it was not in the interest of Joe and/or Hunter Biden. Mr. Shokin was called into Mr. Poroshenko

[SomeBlackDude]

pizzagate.

seth rich.

learn from the past.

:facepalm


Rudy admits to CNN he passed the packet of Ukraine conspiracy theories and attacks on a U.S. ambassador to Pompeo. "They (the State Department) told me they would investigate it."

[QUOTE]Update: The president

[rufuspaul]

fox real news will once again have to retract and apologize.


Perhaps but it is an interesting strategy. We'll see how it plays out.

[Facepalm]

:confusedshrug:


A newly unearthed letter from 2016 shows that Republican senators pushed for reforms to Ukraine's prosecutor general's office and judiciary, echoing calls then-Vice President Joe Biden made at the time.

CNN's KFile found a February 2016 bipartisan letter signed by several Republican senators that urged then-Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to "press ahead with urgent reforms to the Prosecutor General's office and judiciary."
The letter shows that addressing corruption in Ukraine's Prosecutor General's office had bipartisan support in the US and further undercuts a baseless attack made by President Donald Trump and his allies that Biden pressured the Ukrainian government to fire then Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin to stop investigations into a Ukrainian natural gas company that his son, Hunter Biden, sat on the board of. There is no evidence of wrongdoing by either Joe or Hunter Biden, nor is it clear whether Hunter was under investigation at all.


The 2016 letter, sent by members of the Senate Ukraine Caucus, was signed by Republican Sens. Rob Portman, Mark Kirk and Ron Johnson, as well as Democratic Sens. Dick Durbin, Jeanne Shaheen, Chris Murphy, Sherrod Brown, and Richard Blumenthal and focused on longstanding issues of corruption in Ukraine and urged reforms of the government.
"Succeeding in these reforms will show Russian President Vladimir Putin that an independent, transparent and democratic Ukraine can and will succeed," the letter reads. "It also offers a stark alternative to the authoritarianism and oligarchic cronyism prevalent in Russia. As such, we respectfully ask that you address the serious concerns raised by Minister Abromavičius. We similarly urge you to press ahead with urgent reforms to the Prosecutor General's Office and judiciary. The unanimous adoption by the Cabinet of Ministers of the Basic Principles and Action Plan is a good step."

[rufuspaul]

:confusedshrug:


It mentions "reforms" but doesn't say anything about getting the prosecutor fired.

[Facepalm]

It mentions "reforms" but doesn't say anything about getting the prosecutor fired.
Getting the corrupt prosecutor fired was part of the reforms buddy


"By late fall of 2015, the EU and the United States joined the chorus of those seeking Mr. Shokin's removal as the start of an overall reform of the Procurator General's Office," he added. "US Vice President Joe Biden spoke publicly about this before and during his December visit to Kyiv; but Mr. Shokin remained in place."
Added Herbst, "Vice President Biden has been a great advocate for reform in Ukraine."

But I'm sure you already knew that

Who is Herbst, btw?


At the same hearing, John E. Herbst, a former Ambassador to Ukraine in the Bush administration and now director of the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Center, testified that there was widespread support for the removal of Sholkin and praised specifically praised Biden.

[rufuspaul]

Getting the corrupt prosecutor fired was part of the reforms buddy


Gotcha. What if Rudy's notes are true though? Should the prosecutor be deposed?

[Facepalm]

Gotcha. What if Rudy's notes are true though? Should the prosecutor be deposed?
Not sure what notes you are talking about but if there is legitimate evidence out there, I'm all for getting it out in the open. I'm not trying to protect Biden. If he's corrupt, he shouldn't be President. Period. I don't care what side of the aisle you come from.

[rufuspaul]

Not sure what notes you are talking about but if there is legitimate evidence out there, I'm all for getting it out in the open. I'm not trying to protect Biden. If he's corrupt, he shouldn't be President. Period. I don't care what side of the aisle you come from.


:applause:

[MaxFly]

I was waiting for this to come back up again.


The former U.S. special envoy for Ukraine told House investigators on Thursday that he warned President Trump’s personal attorney Rudolph W. Giuliani that Giuliani was receiving untrustworthy information from Ukrainian political figures about former vice president Joe Biden and his son, according to two people familiar with his testimony.

Kurt Volker, who resigned last week after being named in a whistleblower complaint that sparked the House impeachment inquiry into Trump, said he tried to caution Guiliani that his sources, including Ukraine’s former top prosecutor, were unreliable and that he should be careful about putting faith in the prosecutor’s theories, said the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the closed-door meeting.


Ukraine’s former president categorically denied that Joe Biden had ever asked him to open or close any criminal cases, effectively knocking down President Donald Trump’s conspiracy theory about the former vice president.

Petro Poroshenko, who served as the nation’s president from 2014 until earlier this year, joined a growing list of Ukrainian officials who said they never saw Biden take any improper actions involving his son’s business work there, reported Bloomberg.

“The former vice president, at least in personal conversations, didn’t raise any requests to open or close any concrete cases,” Poroshenko told Bloomberg in a statement.

:confusedshrug:

I'm starting to think that Giuliani got played. Oh, this is going to be good. The best part of it all is that they are doubling and tripling down on the fact that they were trying to get dirt on Biden.

[Facepalm]

Well well well (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ukraine-prosecutor-biden-burisma-back-off-state-department-files)




So it looks like quid pro quo isn't a seafood dish after all.

In before "but but but Fox News!"
Somebody lyin



Ukraine’s former President Petro Poroshenko on Wednesday said that former Vice President Joe Biden never asked him to open or close any criminal cases as President Trump continues to rail against what he calls misconduct.

Poroshenko refuted Trump’s claims that Biden abused his power as vice president when he sought to pressure Kiev to dismiss a federal prosecutor who was investigating a natural gas company on whose board Biden's son Hunter Biden sat.

Joe Biden has said he wanted the prosecutor fired over insufficient efforts to tackle corruption, and no evidence has emerged to suggest he acted to benefit his son.

“The former vice president, at least in personal conversations, didn’t raise any requests to open or close any concrete cases,” Poroshenko said in a statement to Bloomberg News on Wednesday.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/464157-former-ukraine-president-biden-never-asked-to-close-cases

[SomeBlackDude]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/03/26/06/3EA3B56500000578-4349932-image-a-2_1490506474372.jpg

https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/06/22/ap_17164813145966_custom-82c21eee185347ed545c1299bdbd06262fc20e29-s800-c85.jpg

time is a flat circle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV7yx2y3TtY)

[MaxFly]

Well this thread backfired.

[bladefd]

Well this thread backfired.

Rufus threads typically backfire. Everything he touches dies :oldlol:

[ILLsmak]

all the little hulksters know that all that shit about Biden n Biden is true. It is what it is.

Like the statement said he followed well established ethics standards. So take that as you will haha.

-Smak

[rufuspaul]

Well this thread backfired.


How so? I posted a Fox News article and clearly stated that it shows one of the administration's strategies. I never said I agreed with it.



it is an interesting strategy. We'll see how it plays out.

It's all part of a plan to throw whatever they can out there to sow the seeds of doubt. If you were advising Trump what would you have him do?

[rufuspaul]

Rufus threads typically backfire. Everything he touches dies :oldlol:


Meh. What have you ever brought to the board? :confusedshrug:

I would say that you're an annoying mosquito but you're not even that interesting.

[ZenMaster]

Not sure what notes you are talking about but if there is legitimate evidence out there, I'm all for getting it out in the open. I'm not trying to protect Biden. If he's corrupt, he shouldn't be President. Period. I don't care what side of the aisle you come from.

Here you go:


My only concern is for us to be on the same page re our final goals. With this in mind, I would
like us to formulate a list of deliverables, including, but not limited to: a concrete course of
actions, incl. meetings/communications resulting in high-ranking US officials in Ukraine (US
Ambassador) and in US publicly or in private communication/comment expressing their
"positive opinion" and support of Nikolay/Burisma to the highest level of decision makers here
in Ukraine :President of Ukraine, president Chief of staff, Prosecutor General, etc
The scope of work should also include organization of a visit of a number of widely recognized
and influential current and/or former US policy-makers to Ukraine in November aiming to
conduct meetings with and bring positive signal/message and support on Nikolay's issue to
the Ukrainian top officials above with the ultimate purpose to close down for any
cases/pursuits against Nikolay in Ukraine.

https://mediaactionnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/25.-Re-Revised-Burisma-Proposal-Contract-and-Invoice.pdf

Gather a group of lawmakers to create a positive signal and have any cases against the Burisma #1 shut down.


A newly unearthed letter from 2016 shows that Republican senators pushed for reforms to Ukraine's prosecutor general's office and judiciary, echoing calls then-Vice President Joe Biden made at the time.

CNN's KFile found a February 2016 bipartisan letter signed by several Republican senators that urged then-Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to "press ahead with urgent reforms to the Prosecutor General's office and judiciary."
The letter shows that addressing corruption in Ukraine's Prosecutor General's office had bipartisan support in the US and further undercuts a baseless attack made by President Donald Trump and his allies that Biden pressured the Ukrainian government to fire then Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin to stop investigations into a Ukrainian natural gas company that his son, Hunter Biden, sat on the board of. There is no evidence of wrongdoing by either Joe or Hunter Biden, nor is it clear whether Hunter was under investigation at all.
The 2016 letter, sent by members of the Senate Ukraine Caucus, was signed by Republican Sens. Rob Portman, Mark Kirk and Ron Johnson, as well as Democratic Sens. Dick Durbin, Jeanne Shaheen, Chris Murphy, Sherrod Brown, and Richard Blumenthal and focused on longstanding issues of corruption in Ukraine and urged reforms of the government.
"Succeeding in these reforms will show Russian President Vladimir Putin that an independent, transparent and democratic Ukraine can and will succeed," the letter reads. "It also offers a stark alternative to the authoritarianism and oligarchic cronyism prevalent in Russia. As such, we respectfully ask that you address the serious concerns raised by Minister Abromavičius. We similarly urge you to press ahead with urgent reforms to the Prosecutor General's Office and judiciary. The unanimous adoption by the Cabinet of Ministers of the Basic Principles and Action Plan is a good step."

That's a group of lawmakers, all saying Poroshenko most go and we all know what happened after with Joe even on tape bragging about it.

[rawimpact]

Always funny going back and reading dumbasses falling for shit journalism. After four years or in this case three years you’d think they’d learn to filter through bullshit but some things never change.

[CelticBaller]

Always funny going back and reading dumbasses falling for shit journalism. After four years or in this case three years you’d think they’d learn to filter through bullshit but some things never change.

Posting private pictures of a man with an addiction is top tier journalism tho

[ZenMaster]

Always funny going back and reading dumbasses falling for shit journalism. After four years or in this case three years you’d think they’d learn to filter through bullshit but some things never change.

It's a crazy thing and it really shows the level of journalism where the only focus is to shape the story a certain way.
They asked for direct evidence through this Ukrainian ordeal, now it's there, but people either stay away from the news, call it fake or deflect by talking about "the level of journalism in the photos or personal information", but when we were talking about the Steele dossier and Trump taking golden showers from Russian prostitutes, it was all good.

Biden has been caught in corruption, directly using his formal influence and shape policy decisions to create change that benefits him and his family financially.
At the same time, it's coming out that he's compromised both in the fact that his family has secret deals with Xi, as well as through Xi having the photos of Biden Jr.
We can only guess what the CCP has on the rest of Dems and Repubs, but something needs to happen to eliminate this threat.

Also, releasing the photos helps to validate that this is legit and comes from Hunter himself. If they only posted emails, everyone would be saying how they were just faked from Russia.

[bladefd]

It's a crazy thing and it really shows the level of journalism where the only focus is to shape the story a certain way.
They asked for direct evidence through this Ukrainian ordeal, now it's there, but people either stay away from the news, call it fake or deflect by talking about "the level of journalism in the photos or personal information", but when we were talking about the Steele dossier and Trump taking golden showers from Russian prostitutes, it was all good.

Biden has been caught in corruption, directly using his formal influence and shape policy decisions to create change that benefits him and his family financially.
At the same time, it's coming out that he's compromised both in the fact that his family has secret deals with Xi, as well as through Xi having the photos of Biden Jr.
We can only guess what the CCP has on the rest of Dems and Repubs, but something needs to happen to eliminate this threat.

Also, releasing the photos helps to validate that this is legit and comes from Hunter himself. If they only posted emails, everyone would be saying how they were just faked from Russia.

Pieces of Steele dossier were verified but a lot of it was impossible to verify & just put aside. Obviously most in America did not take Steele dossier seriously or else Trump wouldn't have won in 2016, would he?

If the laptop/harddrives stuff goes the same way as Steele dossier in 2016 with most people not taking it seriously, Biden will win the election.
If most Americans take the harddrives stuff seriously then Biden will lose.
If you are going to make an apples-to-apples equivalence with Steele dossier then you have to make equivalence of the consequences as well (in this situation, the election results).

[Hittin_Shots]

Pieces of Steele dossier were verified but a lot of it was impossible to verify & just put aside. Obviously most in America did not take Steele dossier seriously or else Trump wouldn't have won in 2016, would he?

If the laptop/harddrives stuff goes the same way as Steele dossier in 2016 with most people not taking it seriously, Biden will win the election.
If most Americans take the harddrives stuff seriously then Biden will lose.
If you are going to make an apples-to-apples equivalence with Steele dossier then you have to make equivalence of the consequences as well (in this situation, the election results).

He was running against a vile piece of shit.. that the piece of shit got in that position and more people voted for that piece of shit is a pretty sad showing of Americans.

[ZenMaster]

Pieces of Steele dossier were verified but a lot of it was impossible to verify & just put aside. Obviously most in America did not take Steele dossier seriously or else Trump wouldn't have won in 2016, would he?

If the laptop/harddrives stuff goes the same way as Steele dossier in 2016 with most people not taking it seriously, Biden will win the election.
If most Americans take the harddrives stuff seriously then Biden will lose.
If you are going to make an apples-to-apples equivalence with Steele dossier then you have to make equivalence of the consequences as well (in this situation, the election results).

The Steele dossier was ordered and paid for by the DNC/Clinton.

I don't think you really understand what the implications of these emails and just how much corruption they display.

You know why Joe is in hiding until Thursday while being silent until then, even though it makes him look bad. It's because if he says anything, it'll make him look worse, because he knows the emails are real.

If he goes public and say they are fake and made up, Rudy and Bannon will release new emails showing this not to be true.
If he goes public and say they real, he'll be confirming to take part in the highest level of corruption.

Blade you asked for proof in the other Ukraine thread, I gave it to you and you disappeared. Whenever shit hits the fan you either leave the conversation or deflect from your own pov, by talking about "what Americans think".
So I ask you, what do YOU think about these emails? Have you even read any of the content?

The emails are part of stories presented by the NY Post with no disclaimer, do you think they're putting this out fake as part of a conspiracy between Murdoch, Trump, Rudy and Bannon?
To compare, the Steele dossier was published by the Huffington Post with explicit message that it wasn't verified. Then, all the other media companies who said they wouldn't report it themselves, then reported on the story Huffington Post.

[rawimpact]

Posting private pictures of a man with an addiction is top tier journalism tho

Posting ALL contents of the emails obtained is top tier journalism. Not picking and selecting what's important or in alignment with the agenda. But everyone has their own opinion on what's deemed top tier.

I guess you prefer pictures be omitted...

[bladefd]

The Steele dossier was ordered and paid for by the DNC/Clinton.

I don't think you really understand what the implications of these emails and just how much corruption they display.

You know why Joe is in hiding until Thursday while being silent until then, even though it makes him look bad. It's because if he says anything, it'll make him look worse, because he knows the emails are real.

If he goes public and say they are fake and made up, Rudy and Bannon will release new emails showing this not to be true.
If he goes public and say they real, he'll be confirming to take part in the highest level of corruption.

Blade you asked for proof in the other Ukraine thread, I gave it to you and you disappeared. Whenever shit hits the fan you either leave the conversation or deflect from your own pov, by talking about "what Americans think".
So I ask you, what do YOU think about these emails? Have you even read any of the content?

The emails are part of stories presented by the NY Post with no disclaimer, do you think they're putting this out fake as part of a conspiracy between Murdoch, Trump, Rudy and Bannon?
To compare, the Steele dossier was published by the Huffington Post with explicit message that it wasn't verified. Then, all the other media companies who said they wouldn't report it themselves, then reported on the story Huffington Post.

What you gave me was that video clip of the Chinese guy making all those claims and hyping it up for 10 minutes. That wasn't proof of anything. Link me to the emails.

I will tell you up front though that I don't care if Hunter is a druggie. I know you care about that druggie stuff a lot, but that part I don't care about. Now what do you have outside of that??

P.S. Steele dossier was initially funded by Republican party people to take down Trump in the Republican primary. The Democrats simply took over the funding after Trump became the favorite to win the Republican nomination.

[ZenMaster]

What you gave me was that video clip of the Chinese guy making all those claims and hyping it up for 10 minutes. That wasn't proof of anything. Link me to the emails.

I will tell you up front though that I don't care if Hunter is a druggie. I know you care about that druggie stuff a lot, but that part I don't care about. Now what do you have outside of that??

P.S. Steele dossier was initially funded by Republican party people to take down Trump in the Republican primary. The Democrats simply took over the funding after Trump became the favorite to win the Republican nomination.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?472658-Ukrainian-Prosecutor-was-told-to-Back-Off-Investigation&p=14161683&viewfull=1#post14161683

Some of the other emails you can find in the NY Post or on the same site sourced in that link.

There'll be worse stuff coming out about China corruption as well.

The druggie stuff is the least of my worries as well, I pointed it out because you try and shape a narrative that Hunter Biden is someone who's held all these high positions. My personal theory is that Hunter goes through quite a lot being the front man for his fathers deals and he's become a broken soul. The pressure of dealing with dangerous and corrupt people in China and former USSR would be astounding.

I know he's not very appealing to look at or listen to, but if you listen to some of what Rudy talks about here, you'll know what to look for when checking the NY post this and next week. There's also my Australian news segment thread on the Politics board with great points made by Bannon.


https://youtu.be/9LuSpHJNPe0?t=1354

[ZenMaster]

Blade do you remember in the last debate when Trump asked Biden about the $3.5 million payment made by the wife of the former mayor of Moscow to Hunter, and Joe said it never happened?

Well it did, so she could launder money through Hunter's firm.

https://i.4cdn.org/pol/1603141858256.jpg

https://is2.4chan.org/pol/1603141890182.jpg

[bladefd]

Here you go:



https://mediaactionnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/25.-Re-Revised-Burisma-Proposal-Contract-and-Invoice.pdf

Gather a group of lawmakers to create a positive signal and have any cases against the Burisma #1 shut down.



That's a group of lawmakers, all saying Poroshenko most go and we all know what happened after with Joe even on tape bragging about it.

Not sure who the parties are.. I see Burisma proposal, but unsure what the proposal is.

Their goal seems to be to find politicians/ambassadors to support Burisma. Was that before or after Biden's call to get Shokin fired?
Do we know if that "close down for any cases/pursuits against Nikolay" is a reference to Shokin's investigation?
Was Shokin the only party in Ukraine investigating Burisma?
Do we know for certain if Joe Biden was knowledgeable about the details?

The last question is the most important.

[ZenMaster]

Not sure who the parties are.. I see Burisma proposal, but unsure what the proposal is.

Their goal seems to be to find politicians/ambassadors to support Burisma. Was that before or after Biden's call to get Shokin fired?
Do we know if that "close down for any cases/pursuits against Nikolay" is a reference to Shokin's investigation?
Was Shokin the only party in Ukraine investigating Burisma?
Do we know for certain if Joe Biden was knowledgeable about the details?

The last question is the most important.

That email is from Burisma #2 sent to Hunter Biden and his business partners in the hedge fund company you've previously touted as one of Hunters great achievements(which is really one of the payment mechanisms for Joe.
The Nikolay who's referred that they need to stop investigations towards, is the Burisma #1.

The email is sent November 2nd 2015, showing the expectations of Burisma towards Hunter Biden and Devon Archer. They then proceed to have the meeting off the books, but we know from the State Department emails that the meeting took place and Biden went around registration to get in the White House.
February 2016, Biden has gathered the lawmakers and can now make an official push towards change of US foreign policy.
Shokin is fired April 2016.

"close down any cases/pursuits against Nikolay" would refer to any case, inlcuding Shokin's.

Do we know for certain if Joe was knowledgeable about the details? No I don't think we have audio of Joe speaking with his son or Devon Archer, but maybe there are texts on the HD. Is that really what you're asking to think there was corruption?

You asked for emails and you got them.
The transactions of the money is there.
The actual happening is there, as in the lawmakers being gathered and the official pressure mounted to fire the Ukrainian prosecutor.
The actual firing is there, with audio of the Ukraine PM confirming it as a favor to Joe.

And it all fits in the timeline of events..

If you're refusing to think what you're seeing is real, because there is no audio released of Joe speaking with his son about very corrupt dealings, then you are just choosing to look the other way deliberately.

[SATAN]

If you're refusing to think what you're seeing is real, because there is no audio released of Joe speaking with his son about very corrupt dealings, then you are just choosing to look the other way deliberately.

lol

[bladefd]

That email is from Burisma #2 sent to Hunter Biden and his business partners in the hedge fund company you've previously touted as one of Hunters great achievements(which is really one of the payment mechanisms for Joe.
The Nikolay who's referred that they need to stop investigations towards, is the Burisma #1.

The email is sent November 2nd 2015, showing the expectations of Burisma towards Hunter Biden and Devon Archer. They then proceed to have the meeting off the books, but we know from the State Department emails that the meeting took place and Biden went around registration to get in the White House.
February 2016, Biden has gathered the lawmakers and can now make an official push towards change of US foreign policy.
Shokin is fired April 2016.

"close down any cases/pursuits against Nikolay" would refer to any case, inlcuding Shokin's.

Do we know for certain if Joe was knowledgeable about the details? No I don't think we have audio of Joe speaking with his son or Devon Archer, but maybe there are texts on the HD. Is that really what you're asking to think there was corruption?

You asked for emails and you got them.
The transactions of the money is there.
The actual happening is there, as in the lawmakers being gathered and the official pressure mounted to fire the Ukrainian prosecutor.
The actual firing is there, with audio of the Ukraine PM confirming it as a favor to Joe.

And it all fits in the timeline of events..

If you're refusing to think what you're seeing is real, because there is no audio released of Joe speaking with his son about very corrupt dealings, then you are just choosing to look the other way deliberately.

Yes, that's the standard the Republicans set over the Ukraine case last year and also the Trump tower meeting in 2016 involving Donald Trump jr, Cohen, Rudy and a few others including a Russian lawyer with high level connections to Russian oligarchs & Russian government (the "adoptions" meeting). Trump wasn't there in person so he was safe from any prosecution even when he publicly lied about it. Are you starting to feel for yourself why folks were so angry over that now? You can only know it when you can feel it for yourself.

I got one email that doesn't incriminate the guy running for president, but it does raise doubt in my mind. Obviously somebody is lying.
Transactions & transcripts we don't have but they could be useful.
Actual happening is there, yes.
Actual firing is there yes, but for the recording of Ukraine PM we don't know if it was a personal favor to Biden or a favor to Obama administration/US government. That latter means we need more - perhaps some sort of recording or email or bank trail to get a case against Joe Biden. Until that we have enough only to raise a doubt & perhaps an investigation but not enough to incriminate Biden.
Timeline fits yes.

Again, I can only go by the standards set by our administration/congress and look at it relative to the actions of who is currently in the White House - you don't have very much to stand on. "The other guy is corrupt so vote for my corrupt guy instead." No, you don't have grounds to make that case. I can pretty much use same arguments used by the Republican party during the impeachment hearings.

[ZenMaster]

Yes, that's the standard the Republicans set over the Ukraine case last year and also the Trump tower meeting in 2016 involving Donald Trump jr, Cohen, Rudy and a few others including a Russian lawyer with high level connections to Russian oligarchs & Russian government (the "adoptions" meeting). Trump wasn't there in person so he was safe from any prosecution even when he publicly lied about it. Are you starting to feel for yourself why folks were so angry over that now? You can only know it when you can feel it for yourself.

I got one email that doesn't incriminate the guy running for president, but it does raise doubt in my mind. Obviously somebody is lying.
Transactions & transcripts we don't have but they could be useful.
Actual happening is there, yes.
Actual firing is there yes, but for the recording of Ukraine PM we don't know if it was a personal favor to Biden or a favor to Obama administration/US government. That latter means we need more - perhaps some sort of recording or email or bank trail to get a case against Joe Biden. Until that we have enough only to raise a doubt & perhaps an investigation but not enough to incriminate Biden.
Timeline fits yes.

Again, I can only go by the standards set by our administration/congress and look at it relative to the actions of who is currently in the White House - you don't have very much to stand on. "The other guy is corrupt so vote for my corrupt guy instead." No, you don't have grounds to make that case. I can pretty much use same arguments used by the Republican party during the impeachment hearings.

At least Don Jr went on TV, explained his reasoning and said he should have acted differently. Basically he was trying to get real information, like what Bannon and Rudy has now.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4687424/Donald-Trump-Jr-defends-meeting-Russian-lawyer.html

Also, as far as I'm aware, that lawyer was originally not allowed to enter the US, but that sanction was lifted by the State Department shortly before her having that meeting set up. That's significant because Hillary was in charge of the Sate Department, and we now know that her campaign set up a strategy to create a Russian interference scandal.

As for Burisma.
Joe Biden represents the US government in those calls, which is the problem, because he's using his power for a situation of personal gain. He went on a press conference and bragged about it as well, name dropping Obama "call him".

First he gained bi-partisan support, and I can't remember the name and it's hard to find the picture now, but I've posted it here a long time ago of a female congress member in a Burisma jacket. The report was they did an excursion there as a team. Corruption is a bi-partisan issue and it's one of the ways they make thing look legit.
Here's the timeline:

- Hunter gets contacted by Burisma, with a clear job description to gather a group of lawmakers to get the Burisma #1 out of any investigation.

- Joe gets some trusted Democrats and Republicans in on the scheme, to gather bi-partisan support.

- Using that bi-partisan support, they're able to get international support as well from allies, because, you know, they represent the US government and push this under the guise of doing good.
This is how that narrative is created, that there was support from everywhere, which you've referred to a bunch of times. But it's not real, all of it gets a push and is set in motion after Hunter gets the offer.

- Joe pushes Poroshenko with the $1 billion loan guarantee.

- Shorkin gets fired.

- Burisma #1 is allowed back into Ukraine.

Also, the China stuff that's come out and is about to come out before Thursday, will make Burisma look small because we still don't know exactly how much they've taken in.
There are many ways with the corruption to pay of everyone involved in the schemes and a proper investigation with all transactions and communication is more than warranted at this point.
For example, I mentioned here a long time ago that one of the things that happened in Burisma after Hunter got involved, was that they were all of the sudden now also expanding with drill projects into Kazakhstan, but using American equipment. And what do you know, in the emails we've also have had revelations of Hunter and Joe doing business there.

But just wait a day or two and pay attention to what will get released, they're going to set it up so Joe will have to answer for it on stage Thursday. Still as of now he won't deny any of it and no suit has been filed against the NY post.

[ZenMaster]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtezgxZr4u8&ab_channel=DonaldJTrump

[bladefd]

At least Don Jr went on TV, explained his reasoning and said he should have acted differently. Basically he was trying to get real information, like what Bannon and Rudy has now.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4687424/Donald-Trump-Jr-defends-meeting-Russian-lawyer.html

Also, as far as I'm aware, that lawyer was originally not allowed to enter the US, but that sanction was lifted by the State Department shortly before her having that meeting set up. That's significant because Hillary was in charge of the Sate Department, and we now know that her campaign set up a strategy to create a Russian interference scandal.

As for Burisma.
Joe Biden represents the US government in those calls, which is the problem, because he's using his power for a situation of personal gain. He went on a press conference and bragged about it as well, name dropping Obama "call him".

First he gained bi-partisan support, and I can't remember the name and it's hard to find the picture now, but I've posted it here a long time ago of a female congress member in a Burisma jacket. The report was they did an excursion there as a team. Corruption is a bi-partisan issue and it's one of the ways they make thing look legit.
Here's the timeline:

- Hunter gets contacted by Burisma, with a clear job description to gather a group of lawmakers to get the Burisma #1 out of any investigation.

- Joe gets some trusted Democrats and Republicans in on the scheme, to gather bi-partisan support.

- Using that bi-partisan support, they're able to get international support as well from allies, because, you know, they represent the US government and push this under the guise of doing good.
This is how that narrative is created, that there was support from everywhere, which you've referred to a bunch of times. But it's not real, all of it gets a push and is set in motion after Hunter gets the offer.

- Joe pushes Poroshenko with the $1 billion loan guarantee.

- Shorkin gets fired.

- Burisma #1 is allowed back into Ukraine.

Also, the China stuff that's come out and is about to come out before Thursday, will make Burisma look small because we still don't know exactly how much they've taken in.
There are many ways with the corruption to pay of everyone involved in the schemes and a proper investigation with all transactions and communication is more than warranted at this point.
For example, I mentioned here a long time ago that one of the things that happened in Burisma after Hunter got involved, was that they were all of the sudden now also expanding with drill projects into Kazakhstan, but using American equipment. And what do you know, in the emails we've also have had revelations of Hunter and Joe doing business there.

But just wait a day or two and pay attention to what will get released, they're going to set it up so Joe will have to answer for it on stage Thursday. Still as of now he won't deny any of it and no suit has been filed against the NY post.

I will wait for that trove to release. There is some doubt raised that would probably require an investigation. I don't mind that, and I wouldn't be opposed to it.

Keep in mind though that a lot of people voting are not voting for Biden. They are voting against Trump. So if you think Rudy releasing something days before the election is suddenly going to win Trump the election is unlikely to happen if that's the intention.

[ZenMaster]

I will wait for that trove to release. There is some doubt raised that would probably require an investigation. I don't mind that, and I wouldn't be opposed to it.

Keep in mind though that a lot of people voting are not voting for Biden. They are voting against Trump. So if you think Rudy releasing something days before the election is suddenly going to win Trump the election is unlikely to happen if that's the intention.

Ok so we agree that Joe and everyone else who's involved in the corrupt should be investigated properly by non corrupt FBI? And not some BS bi-partisan Senate committee again, where he's already been cleared once, because they were a corrupt team of politicians going into corrupt business in Ukraine and this is how politicians protect each other from getting caught.

Also, it's clear as day that there were major corruption, and it's funny to hear you say "you don't mind an investigation", while in another thread you state that Trump is corrupt without even blinking.
Do you have any example of Trump enriching himself by twisting US policy? Tons of stuff has been leaked about bad stuff he's done over the last 4 years, but I've yet to see anyone claim that Trump is getting richer or any example of a deal that's gone bad for the US it was somehow good for Trump on a personal financial level.

[ZenMaster]

https://granitegrok.com/blog/2019/10/so-jeanne-shaheen-took-ukrainian-money-for-her-campaign-coffers-gonna-give-it-back-now-jeanne

[bladefd]

Ok so we agree that Joe and everyone else who's involved in the corrupt should be investigated properly by non corrupt FBI? And not some BS bi-partisan Senate committee again, where he's already been cleared once, because they were a corrupt team of politicians going into corrupt business in Ukraine and this is how politicians protect each other from getting caught.

Also, it's clear as day that there were major corruption, and it's funny to hear you say "you don't mind an investigation", while in another thread you state that Trump is corrupt without even blinking.
Do you have any example of Trump enriching himself by twisting US policy? Tons of stuff has been leaked about bad stuff he's done over the last 4 years, but I've yet to see anyone claim that Trump is getting richer or any example of a deal that's gone bad for the US it was somehow good for Trump on a personal financial level.

Sure, I don't mind the fbi investigating it. I also feel if the fbi finds no evidence, you & other Trumpeters will attack the fbi for being pro-Biden. You are already down the conspiracy rabbit hole. If you don't find what you are looking for, you will blame the fbi, cia, anyone and everyone. It's what Trump has done and continues to do and so do Trumpeters.

Yes, Trump is a corrupt businessman. That is correct. He has been on record lying and trying to cover up very questionable Ukraine issue. Mueller pretty much went as far as he could without openly calling Trump a liar in public testimony & his report. That sort of thing is normalized by Trumpeters. With Biden, this is the first time I'm seeing doubts being raised of him possibly doing something corrupt (other than the sexual assault accusations). With Trump, that is just business as usual.

Trump has not put his businesses in blind trust (or whatever it is called). Every other previous president has done it if they had investments or business. Trump is the first guy who has refused to and won't even show his tax returns. Every single president up to Trump has released theirs. Trump obviously has something to hide, and chances are it's something concerning a foreign country or something nefarious. Trump was also trying to get Trump Towers built in Moscow leading up to the 2016 election and lying about it. The "adoptions" meeting was nothing to do with adoptions - Cohen said under oath that Trump knew all about it (Trump lied saying he didn't). Trump properties have gotten extra business in foreign countries ever since he won the presidency - he doesn't take a salary but think about the hundreds of millions he has gained from extra business thanks to being the president. Even our national American politicians often stay at Trump properties and give extra business (tax money btw) to enrich our president. Trump organization is still doing business in foreign countries with Trump technically still as the head. Jared Kushner, who we can consider Trump's family, is getting extra business through his connections to the White House. Trump also travels weekly to his properties/golf clubs as president of United States - don't you think that benefits him greatly, especially if he is raising memberships fees/overnight fee charges/etc? Trump hotels/properties are also charging millions and millions of dollars to the US government to travel/stay at his properties & raised fees since he became President means he profits/cashes out from tax money - that's OUR tax money at work being funneled into Trump businesses. Pro-Trump lobbyists of course get favorable treatment not just for law purposes but also when staying at his properties. The tax cuts helped out not just his companies but his friends, relatives, his donors and his lobbyists. How do you think Betsy Devos got her position while not holding any credentials in the education sector she oversees?? Oh yeah, Devos family is huge Trump donors.. People+friends of Trump who worked in Trump administration/campaign received massive deals (wink wink) for (wink wink) consulting with President Trump. How do you think that happened?? And those massive tax cuts.. Are you telling me tax cuts he had a big hand in or trade deals didn't help him, his billionaire buddies and family??

Are you kidding me asking what has Trump done to help himself, his family and friends?? Get outta here with that baloney man.

[ZenMaster]

Sure, I don't mind the fbi investigating it. I also feel if the fbi finds no evidence, you & other Trumpeters will attack the fbi for being pro-Biden. You are already down the conspiracy rabbit hole. If you don't find what you are looking for, you will blame the fbi, cia, anyone and everyone. It's what Trump has done and continues to do and so do Trumpeters.

Yes, Trump is a corrupt businessman. That is correct. He has been on record lying and trying to cover up very questionable Ukraine issue. Mueller pretty much went as far as he could without openly calling Trump a liar in public testimony & his report. That sort of thing is normalized by Trumpeters. With Biden, this is the first time I'm seeing doubts being raised of him possibly doing something corrupt (other than the sexual assault accusations). With Trump, that is just business as usual.

Trump has not put his businesses in blind trust (or whatever it is called). Every other previous president has done it if they had investments or business. Trump is the first guy who has refused to and won't even show his tax returns. Every single president up to Trump has released theirs. Trump obviously has something to hide, and chances are it's something concerning a foreign country or something nefarious. Trump was also trying to get Trump Towers built in Moscow leading up to the 2016 election and lying about it. The "adoptions" meeting was nothing to do with adoptions - Cohen said under oath that Trump knew all about it (Trump lied saying he didn't). Trump properties have gotten extra business in foreign countries ever since he won the presidency - he doesn't take a salary but think about the hundreds of millions he has gained from extra business thanks to being the president. Even our national American politicians often stay at Trump properties and give extra business (tax money btw) to enrich our president. Trump organization is still doing business in foreign countries with Trump technically still as the head. Jared Kushner, who we can consider Trump's family, is getting extra business through his connections to the White House. Trump also travels weekly to his properties/golf clubs as president of United States - don't you think that benefits him greatly, especially if he is raising memberships fees/overnight fee charges/etc? Trump hotels/properties are also charging millions and millions of dollars to the US government to travel/stay at his properties & raised fees since he became President means he profits/cashes out from tax money - that's OUR tax money at work being funneled into Trump businesses. Pro-Trump lobbyists of course get favorable treatment not just for law purposes but also when staying at his properties. The tax cuts helped out not just his companies but his friends, relatives, his donors and his lobbyists. How do you think Betsy Devos got her position while not holding any credentials in the education sector she oversees?? Oh yeah, Devos family is huge Trump donors.. People+friends of Trump who worked in Trump administration/campaign received massive deals (wink wink) for (wink wink) consulting with President Trump. How do you think that happened?? And those massive tax cuts.. Are you telling me tax cuts he had a big hand in or trade deals didn't help him, his billionaire buddies and family??

Are you kidding me asking what has Trump done to help himself, his family and friends?? Get outta here with that baloney man.

What Trump Ukraine issue? You still don't understand that he was asking the new PM there for help to clean up after the crime which we now have evidence for.

This case is no rabbit hole, if the newly released emails are real we have:

Motive

Proof of transactions and communication to back up motive.

Proof of final outcome.

Even I could present the basics of this case in court with how much information there is about the whole scheme. This is the corruption people always wondering about when the top politicians get filthy rich without explanation, and now there is proof and Hunters former business partner has been pulled from his jail.
Again, all if the newly emails released are real.

[bladefd]

Yes, Trump is a corrupt businessman. That is correct. He has been on record lying and trying to cover up very questionable Ukraine issue. Mueller pretty much went as far as he could without openly calling Trump a liar in public testimony & his report. That sort of thing is normalized by Trumpeters. With Biden, this is the first time I'm seeing doubts being raised of him possibly doing something corrupt (other than the sexual assault accusations). With Trump, that is just business as usual.

Trump has not put his businesses in blind trust (or whatever it is called). Every other previous president has done it if they had investments or business. Trump is the first guy who has refused to and won't even show his tax returns. Every single president up to Trump has released theirs. Trump obviously has something to hide, and chances are it's something concerning a foreign country or something nefarious. Trump was also trying to get Trump Towers built in Moscow leading up to the 2016 election and lying about it. The "adoptions" meeting was nothing to do with adoptions - Cohen said under oath that Trump knew all about it (Trump lied saying he didn't). Trump properties have gotten extra business in foreign countries ever since he won the presidency - he doesn't take a salary but think about the hundreds of millions he has gained from extra business thanks to being the president. Even our national American politicians often stay at Trump properties and give extra business (tax money btw) to enrich our president. Trump organization is still doing business in foreign countries with Trump technically still as the head. Jared Kushner, who we can consider Trump's family, is getting extra business through his connections to the White House. Trump also travels weekly to his properties/golf clubs as president of United States - don't you think that benefits him greatly, especially if he is raising memberships fees/overnight fee charges/etc? Trump hotels/properties are also charging millions and millions of dollars to the US government to travel/stay at his properties & raised fees since he became President means he profits/cashes out from tax money - that's OUR tax money at work being funneled into Trump businesses. Pro-Trump lobbyists of course get favorable treatment not just for law purposes but also when staying at his properties. The tax cuts helped out not just his companies but his friends, relatives, his donors and his lobbyists. How do you think Betsy Devos got her position while not holding any credentials in the education sector she oversees?? Oh yeah, Devos family is huge Trump donors.. People+friends of Trump who worked in Trump administration/campaign received massive deals (wink wink) for (wink wink) consulting with President Trump. How do you think that happened?? And those massive tax cuts.. Are you telling me tax cuts he had a big hand in or trade deals didn't help him, his billionaire buddies and family??

Are you kidding me asking what has Trump done to help himself, his family and friends?? Get outta here with that baloney man.

You don't even deny any of that because you know you don't have any ground to stand on. Maybe if that was McCain or Bush or Reagan running, you would have a solid case. But someone as corrupt as Trump doesn't give you much ground to stand on.

[ZenMaster]

You don't even deny any of that because you know you don't have any ground to stand on. Maybe if that was McCain or Bush or Reagan running, you would have a solid case. But someone as corrupt as Trump doesn't give you much ground to stand on.

I've heard some of this before and it's a long narrative on how Trump is getting rich using his Presidency, but there aren't many direct deals or use of US policy and I don't count the Secret Service staying at his hotels when he's there as one.
My issue with the narrative is that everyone claims Trump has lost a lot of money during his presidency, per Forbes it's around $600 million in 4 years.

So what you're saying is that he's taking that loss publicly, and then making it up with dark deals and off shore payments?

[Nanners]

You don't even deny any of that because you know you don't have any ground to stand on. Maybe if that was McCain or Bush or Reagan running, you would have a solid case. But someone as corrupt as Trump doesn't give you much ground to stand on.

Zen has tons of ground to stand on, because (like usual) your point is blatantly false and laughably absurd.

The Bush admin used what was almost certainly a false flag terror attack as an excuse to usher in a new era of perpetual war and unconstitutional surveillance. These new wars that were targeting some of the poorest countries on this earth and had absolutely no connection to 9/11 whatsoever. If Bush had gone after Saudi Arabia then perhaps the war on terror would have had a shred of legitimacy, but instead he decimated a country that had no connection whatsoever to the attack - Iraq. Once bush was done killing Iraqis (estimates range from ~100k-1M+ dead from this war), he gave no bid contracts for Dick Cheneys business partners to "reconstruct" all of the infastructure that our armed forces turned to rubble. The reconstruction contracts didnt only go to Cheneys guys tho, Joe Bidens brother James Biden was handed a $35b contract to build 100k homes (350k/house)... despite the fact that he had zero experience with construction at the time.

In addition to slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis, Bush also destroyed any moral authority the US could claim to have by authorizing truly heinous policies like torture and extraordinary rendition.

The Iraq war is just one example of the Bush corruption. Just like Trump, he gave out massive tax cuts to the rich. Just like Trump, he filled his cabinet with donors and lobbyists. Just like Trump, he spent an insulting amount of time on recreational activities like golf.

Anyway, it requires an insane level of naivety and/or stupidity to think that Trumps refusal to release tax returns or his attempts to have people stay at his hotels is worse than a war criminal who did things like murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people in order to enrich his buddies in the millitary industrial complex.

[bladefd]

Zen has tons of ground to stand on, because (like usual) your point is blatantly false and laughably absurd.

The Bush admin used what was almost certainly a false flag terror attack as an excuse to usher in a new era of perpetual war and unconstitutional surveillance. These new wars that were targeting some of the poorest countries on this earth and had absolutely no connection to 9/11 whatsoever. If Bush had gone after Saudi Arabia then perhaps the war on terror would have had a shred of legitimacy, but instead he decimated a country that had no connection whatsoever to the attack - Iraq. Once bush was done killing Iraqis (estimates range from ~100k-1M+ dead from this war), he gave no bid contracts for Dick Cheneys business partners to "reconstruct" all of the infastructure that our armed forces turned to rubble. The reconstruction contracts didnt only go to Cheneys guys tho, Joe Bidens brother James Biden was handed a $35b contract to build 100k homes (350k/house)... despite the fact that he had zero experience with construction at the time.

In addition to slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis, Bush also destroyed any moral authority the US could claim to have by authorizing truly heinous policies like torture and extraordinary rendition.

The Iraq war is just one example of the Bush corruption. Just like Trump, he gave out massive tax cuts to the rich. Just like Trump, he filled his cabinet with donors and lobbyists. Just like Trump, he spent an insulting amount of time on recreational activities like golf.

Anyway, it requires an insane level of naivety and/or stupidity to think that Trumps refusal to release tax returns or his attempts to have people stay at his hotels is worse than a war criminal who did things like murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people in order to enrich his buddies in the millitary industrial complex.

I apologize for not making myself clear, but I was talking about pop Bush. He was one cold hearted bastard from his cia days of screwing around in Latin America, but in his days as president probably not as corrupt as his son.

But ultimately, I am putting apples against oranges. The point I was simply making was that Trump supporters don't have much ground to stand on to call out Biden and in the same breath call those people to vote for Trump instead. That argument does not work if your guy you want others to choose is as corrupt as Trump is. Corruption is just business as usual for Trump going back to the 1970s, while this is the first I'm hearing of Biden possibly doing something corrupt (other than the sexual assault allegation we heard last year from that one lady). Biden ran on ticket with Obama twice so he has been thoroughly vetted up to 2012. We didn't hear of corruption incident concerning him until this election cycle. For Trump, that behavior is just business as usual going back 45yrs (more than half his life).

Biden was not my choice. I voted for Bernie in primary. I am not going to go vote Trump because Biden might be corrupt. Even if Biden was corrupt, Biden has a big threshold of corruption to cross for me to go vote Trump instead.