Who would you pick first from this list?

[AussieSteve]

If you had to start a team with one of the below players, without any knowledge of who you'd be able to get to fill out the team, who would you pick.

Scottie Pippen
Grant Hill
Dominique Wilkins
Chris Mullin
James Worthy
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond
John Stockton
Gary Payton
Kevin Johnson
Tim Hardaway
Penny Hardaway

Forget GOAT lists, career accolades and achievements. You get them in their prime, you don't know how long you'll have them for. Who do you want to build a team around to win now?

[Turbo Slayer]

Scottie my boi :rockon:

[KrizMiz]

GP

the only pointguard to win DPOY

[stalkerforlife]

GP or Drexler.

[ImKobe]

Drexler. He proved he could take multiple teams to the Finals and is the only player out of that list to do so as the clear-cut best player.

I'm assuming you pick one from the list to win in their era as well and not vs today's guys.

[imdaman99]

Are we assuming the same injuries they had throughout their careers? Or this is their primes and no injuries? Because at least a few of those guys had their primes cut due to injury.

[stalkerforlife]

Pippen is not better than Drexler, GP, Wilkins, and arguably not better than Stockton. Grant Hill was obviously better when healthy as well.

Is this just a thread to minimize Jordan?

[ImKobe]

Pippen is not better than Drexler, GP, Wilkins, and arguably not better than Stockton. Grant Hill was obviously better when healthy as well.

Is this just a thread to minimize Jordan?

He obviously made this thread to upvote Pippen with his alts when literally 0 other posters have talked about him (first reply is obviously his alt). But give him a few minutes and he'll line up the Pippen posts on his 5 alts, followed by quoting them all on his different alts with stupid gifs and " :roll: ". He even made the effort to hide poll results so we couldn't laugh at him being the only one to vote for Scottie.

[Kblaze8855]

Thats tough. No obvious answer. All but maybe 2 of them make sense. I dont see why you take Worthy for 2020 over the other options....though I think he was underrated for the time he played.

[3ball]

.
C'mon bruh - provide some background... You know we ISH guys need context


Best playoff accomplishment


Pippen - pulled a 19' Kyrie in the 94' playoffs by losing in 2nd with horrific personal performance

KJ - routinely won 55 games and averaged 20/10 - he was the best player/team leader when he averaged 22/11 to upset Magic's 1 seed Lakers and make WCF in 1990

Drexler - led team to 2 Finals and averaged 26 against the bad boys and MJ

Worthy - was #1 option over Magic/Kareem in 87' and 88' playoffs, including 31 on 60% in 87' WCF



STATS


Stockton 90-99' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html#1990-1999-sum:per_game):. 22.6 PER.. 0.216 ws.. 5.2 obpm.. 14.9.. 2.9.. 11.9.. 61.4 ts
Pippeni... 90-99' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1999-sum:per_game):. 20.2 PER.. 0.169 ws.. 3.3 obpm.. 19.2.. 7.2.. 5.9.. 54.4 ts..

Stockton 90-99' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html#1990-1999-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 19.7 PER.. 0.156 ws.. 4.2 obpm.. 13.8.. 3.0.. 10.5.. 56.0 ts
Pippen... 90-99' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1999-sum:playoffs_per_game):.' 19.4 PER.. 0.154 ws.. 2.8 obpm.. 19.1 ppg.. 7.9.. 5.5.. 52.3 ts


KJ was better:

KJ RS:.. 17.9.. 3.3.. 9.1.. 58.5 ts.. 118 ortg.. 20.7 PER.. 0.178 ws/48
Pip RS:. 16.2.. 6.4.. 5.2.. 53.6 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.6 PER.. 0.146 ws/48

KJ PO:.. 19.3.. 3.3.. 8.9.. 55.7 ts.. 113 ortg.. 19.1 PER.. 0.117 ws/48
Pip PO:. 17.5.. 7.6.. 5.0.. 52.4 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.4 PER.. 0.140 ws/48


Kemp was better:

S KEMP 1996 PO: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. 64.0 ts
PIPPEN 1996 PO: 16.9 ppg..... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts

S KEMP 1996 FINALS:. 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. 63.3 ts
PIPPEN 1996 FINALS:. 15.7 ppg..... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts


I'd take almost all of the choices over Pippen

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'd go with either Grant Hill or Dominique

Its impossible to answer this with your hindsight.

[LostCause]

Penny for me

Though its hard to ignore hindsight so some people will avoid folks like Hill and Penny. Now if you state that excluding career-ending injuries who would you take, to eliminate that from being a factor, then you'll probably see a lot of folks taking them

[egokiller]

Clyde the Glide and it

[Rico2016]

As we all know the thread is fresh and the poll is still early but as it currently stands Scottie Pippen holds 13 votes, the most for the number one vote-getter. While the second most vote-getter has only 2. I'm ashamed of anyone that didn't pick Scottie Pippen, but I guess sometimes this bball forum surprises people. I shouldn't be surprised, but I still am. Why would anyone not vote Scottie Pippen? How many of these players could lose Jordan from a Jordan lead team and drop off by only a measly two wins? Only one that I know of

[egokiller]

Wheels with 13 votes for Pippen. :roll:

[3ball]

As we all know the thread is fresh and the poll is still early but as it currently stands Scottie Pippen holds 13 votes, the most for the number one vote-getter. While the second most vote-getter has only 2. I'm ashamed of anyone that didn't pick Scottie Pippen, but I guess sometimes this bball forum surprises people. I shouldn't be surprised, but I still am. Why would anyone not vote Scottie Pippen? How many of these players could lose Jordan from a Jordan lead team and drop off by only a measly two wins? Only one that I know of

Pippen's highest regular season wins as #1 option ranks near-last


Payton............ 64
Drexler'........... 62
T Hardaway.... 60
Dominique'..... 57
K Johnson'..... 55
Pippen'........... 55
G Hill.............. 54



Pippen's playoff performance as #1 option flat-out ranks last


DREXLER - led team to 2 Finals and averaged 26 against the bad boys and MJ

KJ - routinely won 55 games and averaged 20/10 - he was the best player while upsetting Magic's 1 seed to make WCF in 1990

TIM HARDAWAY - averaged 26.2 ppg and 12.8 apg in a loss to Magic in 91' WCSF .. also made the 97' ECF as the Heat's best player (1st team all-nba)

DOMINIQUE - legendary duel vs Bird in 88' ECSF - 31 ppg on 44%.. 48 in legendary 7

PAYTON - made 96' Finals after several near misses in prior years - a goat 2-way player/playmaker

R MilILLER - made 2 ECF with no all-star teammates... 22.6 on 58% ts in 1995 ECSF vs Knicks to make ECF (pippen only 21.7 on 51.1 ts in 94' ECSF loss to Knicks)

WORTHY - #1 option over Magic/Kareem in 87' and 88' playoffs, including 31 on 60% in 87' WCF, and 88' FMVP

PIPPEN - wasn't #1 option over Kukoc when it mattered in the 94' playoffs and ultimately pulled a 19' Kyrie by losing in 2nd Rd with horrific personal performance (21.7 on 40% plus 3 chokes)



Tell me where I'm wrong .. :coleman:
.

[bigkingsfan]

Consensus, another one.

[3ball]

Consensus, another one.
R Miller 1995 ECSF vs Knicks - 22.6 on 58 ts... legendary goat clutch, victory & ECF birth
Pippen. 1994 ECSF vs Knicks - 21.7 on 51 ts... 3 chokes (sat out, dumb foul, bad gm 7 )


Reggie also beat Pippen in the regular season (60 wins and 1 seeds)

So Reggie's regular season and playoff accomplishments as #1 option destroy Pippen's, just like everyone else's in the OP, as detailed in post #16 above

Pippen simply gets overrated for his 6 rings and being a luckbox (landing next to mj) .. period.. his performance does NOT warrant the rating

[RRR3]

Caught this before the edit. 3ball is MJ confirmed It all makes sense now

https://i.ibb.co/SJwjkwz/1-DB89-D08-F321-41-D4-9032-AACEE2346-D74.jpg

[bigkingsfan]

R Miller 1995 ECSF vs Knicks - 22.6 on 58 ts... legendary goat clutch, victory & ECF birth
Pippen. 1994 ECSF vs Knicks - 21.7 on 51 ts... 3 chokes (sat out, dumb foul, bad gm 7 )


Reggie also beat Pippen in the regular season (60 wins and 1 seeds)

So Reggie's regular season and playoff accomplishments as #1 option destroy Pippen's, just like everyone else's in the OP, as detailed in post #16 above

Pippen simply gets overrated for his 6 rings and being a luckbox (landing next to mj) .. period.. his performance does NOT warrant the rating
Pippen 16 votes and counting.
Reggie 0 and counting.

[3ball]

Pippen 16 votes and counting.
Reggie 0 and counting.
98' Reggie took MJ's goat Bulls to the limit.. then Reggie took peak Shaq 6 games

So Reggie was 5-8 against the only 2 three-peat teams since Russell's Celtics, while Curry is 8-10 in games without KD against the one-star 19' Raptors and a perennial Finals loser (lebron).

Reggie's threes had that 'curry' effect even back then, and Pippen wasn't capable of being the best offensive player on a Finals team



Pippen 16 votes and counting.
Reggie 0 and counting.

Against the same team or comp level, Tim Hardaway's performance destroyed Pippen:


S Pippen'.....Finals' vs 91' Lakers.... 20.8 ppg.... 6.6 apg.. 45.3%
T Hardaway WCSF vs 91' Lakers.... 26.8 ppg.. 12.8 apg.. 49.5%
S Pippen'......ECSF..'vs 94' Knicks.... 21.7 ppg.... 4.7 apg.. 40.9%


And your votes are crap because Clyde is more athletic/talented then Pippen and should be the easy winner - look at their dunk contest - pippen barely dunks from FT line while Clyde does easily... Clyde had 27/7/7 seasons with 2 Finals runs and was a much better passer, scorer and shooter... It's not even close - MJ and Clyde would never lose.

And Lillard, I mean KJ, was better - i.e. a MUCH better scorer and passer who beat Magic's 60-win, 1 seed to make the conference finals - when did pippen ever average those numbers, beat a great team, or make the conference finals?

You guys are just overrating pippen because of the rings.. because his performance was obviously inferior to these guys

In addition to T Hardaway and KJ, we already know that Grant Hill and Penny were better, and regarded as such... And Worthy was leading scorer and the clear-cut #1 option over Kareem and Magic in the 87' and 88' playoffs (including 31 on 60% in WCF), while Pippen wasn't even #1 option over Kukoc in the 94' ECSF.

Again, you guys are simply overrating pippen because of the rings.. his performance was obviously inferior to these guys

[Manny98]

Pippen wins in a landslide :bowdown: :bowdown:

[jayfan]

Healthy?

Grant Hill. Easy.



.

[Akeem34TheDream]

What a competitive poll.

[3ball]

Healthy?

Grant Hill. Easy.



.
For me, a healthy penny too

And Kemp without the alcohol

Or Coleman with good guidance

Or 88' Dominique (although 93' nique dropped 30 on 44% vs pip in playoffs)

Or 87-95' drexler

All players in the OP at their peak averaged and accomplished more than "2nd round" Pip (even with the best circumstances ever)


Or the only guy in history (worthy) that was #1 option over 2 top 5 all-time players (Kareem, Magic)

87' or 88' Worthy

And on and on..

Heck, all those guys played better than pippen ever did

Where are Pippen's killer series that everyone remembers him for? Zero.. there are none because he's overrated.. otoh, drexler has his MVP and Finals battle with MJ; Dominique has the duel with Bird; Payton actually held down a top player significantly below his averages (not just people pretending he did like they do with Pip)... And on and on

You guys must have your imaginary series where pippen dominated the series like that

[RRR3]

For me, a healthy penny too

And Kemp without the alcohol

Or Coleman with good guidance

Or 88' Dominique (although 93' nique dropped 30 on 44% vs pip in playoffs)

Or 87-95' drexler

All players in the OP at their peak averaged and accomplished more than "2nd round" Pip (even with the best circumstances ever)


Or the only guy in history (worthy) that was #1 option over 2 top 5 all-time players (Kareem, Magic)

87' or 88' Worthy

And on and on..

Heck, all those guys played better than pippen ever did

Where are Pippen's killer series that everyone remembers him for? Zero.. there are none because he's overrated.. otoh, drexler has his MVP and Finals battle with MJ; Dominique has the duel with Bird; Payton actually held down a top player significantly below his averages (not just people pretending he did like they do with Pip)... And on and on

You guys must have your imaginary series where pippen dominated the series like that
Worthy being the first option is a pretty hard sell considering Magic averaged 23.9 PPG to his 19.4 and took 16.4 shots to his 14.7. Even if you go per minute, Magic took .8 more shots per minute. Magic had a 26.3% usage rate to Worthy's 22.3%. Worthy being first option that year is complete bullshit. And Byron Scott actually led the Lakers in PPG and FGA/G (and FGA per minute) in 1988.

[bigkingsfan]

98' Reggie took MJ's goat Bulls to the limit.. then Reggie took peak Shaq 6 games

So Reggie was 5-8 against the only 2 three-peat teams since Russell's Celtics, while Curry is 8-10 in games without KD against the one-star 19' Raptors and a perennial Finals loser (lebron).

Reggie's threes had that 'curry' effect even back then, and Pippen wasn't capable of being the best offensive player on a Finals team




Against the same team or comp level, Tim Hardaway's performance destroyed Pippen:


S Pippen'.....Finals' vs 91' Lakers.... 20.8 ppg.... 6.6 apg.. 45.3%
T Hardaway WCSF vs 91' Lakers.... 26.8 ppg.. 12.8 apg.. 49.5%
S Pippen'......ECSF..'vs 94' Knicks.... 21.7 ppg.... 4.7 apg.. 40.9%


And your votes are crap because Clyde is more athletic/talented then Pippen and should be the easy winner - look at their dunk contest - pippen barely dunks from FT line while Clyde does easily... Clyde had 27/7/7 seasons with 2 Finals runs and was a much better passer, scorer and shooter... It's not even close - MJ and Clyde would never lose.

And Lillard, I mean KJ, was better - i.e. a MUCH better scorer and passer who beat Magic's 60-win, 1 seed to make the conference finals - when did pippen ever average those numbers, beat a great team, or make the conference finals?

You guys are just overrating pippen because of the rings.. because his performance was obviously inferior to these guys

In addition to T Hardaway and KJ, we already know that Grant Hill and Penny were better, and regarded as such... And Worthy was leading scorer and the clear-cut #1 option over Kareem and Magic in the 87' and 88' playoffs (including 31 on 60% in WCF), while Pippen wasn't even #1 option over Kukoc in the 94' ECSF.

Again, you guys are simply overrating pippen because of the rings.. his performance was obviously inferior to these guys
18-0

[ClipperRevival]

Give me Hill. Best combo of athleticism, height/length, D, and the ability to be "the man" on the O end. Hill is severely underrated. We never got to see a prime Hill anyways but he would've been the best player from this group imo.

Next, probably Drexler. Dude was something special too. People don't realize how much there was a comparison between him and MJ leading up to the 1992 finals.

[ClipperRevival]

You can see the older heads giving the right answer, like Hill, Drex, Wilkins, etc. Yet look at the poll results. Lol.

Pip -18
Hill - 2

[RRR3]

Give me Hill. Best combo of athleticism, height/length, D, and the ability to be "the man" on the O end. Hill is severely underrated. We never got to see a prime Hill anyways but he would've been the best player from this group imo.

Next, probably Drexler. Dude was something special too. People don't realize how much there was a comparison between him and MJ leading up to the 1992 finals.
Hill didn't get injured till his age 28 season. You almost certainly saw his prime, but maybe not his peak.

[egokiller]

You can see the older heads giving the right answer, like Hill, Drex, Wilkins, etc. Yet look at the poll results. Lol.

Pip -18
Hill - 2

15 of those are wheels lol

[Manny98]

Ordan stans are seething that everyone thinks Pippen is the best out of those players :roll:

[RRR3]

On GOAT lists, I feel like Pippen is usually ranked at worst 2nd or 3rd behind Drexler and/or Stockton among these players. And I feel like he's quite often ranked first among this group.

[ClipperRevival]

15 of those are wheels lol

It has to account for some but I think on this board, the last few years, Pip is by far the most overrated player on this board. The Bron fans have obviously pushed whatever narrative to upgrade MJs supporting cast.

It's so cute. :oldlol:

[Manny98]

It has to account for some but I think on this board, the last few years, Pip is by far the most overrated player on this board. The Bron fans have obviously pushed whatever narrative to upgrade MJs supporting cast.

It's so cute. :oldlol:
No it's you Jordan fanboys who underrate and diminish every single player Jordan has ever played with.

[RRR3]

This list from 2017 has Pippen ranked ahead of all of these guys except Stockton: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1573442

The backpicks project has Pippen 1st among these players in terms of career value: http://www.backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

ESPN in 2016 had him over all these players except Stockton: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank160203/all-nbarank-21-25

CBS had him first among these players in 2017: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/cbs-sports-50-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-where-do-lebron-curry-rank/

I'm not saying these lists mean anything, I'm just saying it's not an uncommon opinion to think Pippen is arguably the greatest among this group of players.

[egokiller]

It has to account for some but I think on this board, the last few years, Pip is by far the most overrated player on this board. The Bron fans have obviously pushed whatever narrative to upgrade MJs supporting cast.

It's so cute. :oldlol:

It

[ClipperRevival]

On GOAT lists, I feel like Pippen is usually ranked at worst 2nd or 3rd behind Drexler and/or Stockton among these players. And I feel like he's quite often ranked first among this group.

Re-read the OPs criteria babyboi.

[AussieSteve]

3ball:

"Kemp was better than Pippen because he led the 96 Sonics in scoring on the way to the finals and got FMVP votes. While pippen couldn't get out of the 2nd round as leading scorer."

But hang on...

"GP wad better than Pippen because he led the 96 Sonics to 64 wins. While pippen couldn't lead a team to more than 55 wins."

So, the sonics had two players who were All NBA level first options? Perhaps that's why they won 64 and made the finals. (Just like the Bulls) Just a thought.

This is the logic we're dealing with.

It's this over and over again. Teams with 2+ stars where he gives credit to one or the other depending an the agenda at the time, therefore stating they achieved more than Pippen, but neglecting to mention that they had a second star by their side.

[AussieSteve]

It has to account for some but I think on this board, the last few years, Pip is by far the most overrated player on this board. The Bron fans have obviously pushed whatever narrative to upgrade MJs supporting cast.

It's so cute. :oldlol:

It's 100% reactive to 3ball.

I think Pippen is great. But it doesn't change my mind that MJ is the GOAT. The only reason I talk about Pippen at all is because 3ball thinks that half of the players in the 90s were better than him. 3ball is the insecure 'cute' one. I'm just prodding the fire.

[LAL]

Prime grant hill for me. Then prime penny. Then pippen maybe.

[ClipperRevival]

It's 100% reactive to 3ball.

I think Pippen is great. But it doesn't change my mind that MJ is the GOAT. The only reason I talk about Pippen at all is because 3ball thinks that half of the players in the 90s were better than him. 3ball is the insecure 'cute' one. I'm just prodding the fire.

Cringe

[LostCause]

I actually didn't even see Stockton on the list

He's definitely debatable to take first here as well

[warriorfan]

Someone recreate this pole without anonymous voting :lol

[SpaceJam]

Someone recreate this pole without anonymous voting :lol

Poll* playboy

EDIT: Nevermind saw you changed your sig after I got you with that little zinger a couple weeks back

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=472197

GOT EM!

[warriorfan]

Poll* playboy

Nevermind saw you changed your sig after I got you with that little zinger a couple weeks back

shut the **** up before I stuff you in a trash can you pencil necked geek

[SpaceJam]

shut the **** up before I stuff you in a trash can you pencil necked geek

What it do playboy :rockon: :rockon:

[superduper]

No it's you Jordan fanboys who underrate and diminish every single player Jordan has ever played with.

The nerve of these Bran stans

[3ball]

3ball:

"Kemp was better than Pippen because he led the 96 Sonics in scoring on the way to the finals and got FMVP votes. While pippen couldn't get out of the 2nd round as leading scorer."

But hang on...

"GP wad better than Pippen because he led the 96 Sonics to 64 wins. While pippen couldn't lead a team to more than 55 wins."

So, the sonics had two players who were All NBA level first options? Perhaps that's why they won 64 and made the finals. (Just like the Bulls) Just a thought.

This is the logic we're dealing with.

It's this over and over again. Teams with 2+ stars where he gives credit to one or the other depending an the agenda at the time, therefore stating they achieved more than Pippen, but neglecting to mention that they had a second star by their side.
^^^ You're making my point

The Sonics had a way better cast than the 94' bulls, as you just pointed out, and all the 2-star teams did - so like I've been saying - the bulls didn't win 55 based on their shit roster or pippen's D'Angelo Russell stats (22/6) - they won based on the 3-peat system

So pippen didn't do shit but ride a 3-peat system to 55 wins, and then flame out in the 2nd round worse than 19' Kyrie..

Accept the facts - pippen has name recognition from 6 rings, but his actual performance is nowhere near other guys and doesn't justify his high ranking - furthermore, his repeated choking, migraines and mind-f ucks show he's the opposite of the 6 rings (not a winner and infact carried)

And btw, it's hard to say who the Sonics' go-to player was because Kemp and payton were both great and always close statistically.. but it doesn't matter which guy we say took them to the Finals (probably Payton) because both drastically outplayed Pippen and are better as 1st or 2nd options
.

[SouBeachTalents]

the bulls didn't win 55 based on their shit roster or pippen's D'Angelo Russell stats (22/6) - they won based on the 3-peat system
I remember KBlaze made that Eddie Murphy post a while back, where he'd show you criticizing today's players numbers being inflated due to pace and rule changes, saying they couldn't be comparable to players of the past because of that; afterword he'd show you in a pro Jordan/anti LeBron thread then trying to argue that some current players numbers do in fact prove that they're equal to or greater than another player of the past. Literal textbook definition right here :oldlol: And no, you can't just completely disregard the massive difference between the two of them on the defensive end

So pippen didn't do shit but ride a 3-peat system to 55 wins, and then flame out in the 2nd round worse than 19' Kyrie..
And here you go blatantly making shit up. Kyrie's series against the Bucks, by almost any conceivable measure, was significantly worse than Pippen was vs. the Knicks

[ILLsmak]

Lil penny. Ghill is close but penny is better to lead I think. In this Era esp.

-Smak

[TheMan]

Are we assuming the same injuries they had throughout their careers? Or this is their primes and no injuries? Because at least a few of those guys had their primes cut due to injury.
This

If we are judging on pure talent and not their past injuries, then I'm taking Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen and Clyde Drexler in that order.

[TheMan]

Ordan stans are seething that everyone thinks Pippen is the best out of those players :roll:
He's top 5 in my list...you obviously never saw prime Grant Hill or Penny Hardaway. Those two gave Pippen fits.

https://youtu.be/H18Kc2xykPg

https://youtu.be/gsEwfI2-QlM

[AussieSteve]

^^^ You're making my point

The Sonics had a way better cast than the 94' bulls, as you just pointed out, and all the 2-star teams did - so like I've been saying - the bulls didn't win 55 based on their shit roster or pippen's D'Angelo Russell stats (22/6) - they won based on the 3-peat system

So pippen didn't do shit but ride a 3-peat system to 55 wins, and then flame out in the 2nd round worse than 19' Kyrie..

Accept the facts - pippen has name recognition from 6 rings, but his actual performance is nowhere near other guys and doesn't justify his high ranking - furthermore, his repeated choking, migraines and mind-f ucks show he's the opposite of the 6 rings (not a winner and infact carried)

And btw, it's hard to say who the Sonics' go-to player was because Kemp and payton were both great and always close statistically.. but it doesn't matter which guy we say took them to the Finals (probably Payton) because both drastically outplayed Pippen and are better as 1st or 2nd options
.

So, Pippen did better as the clear cut #1 option than GP or Kemp ever did. Got it.





Let's just say you got one of these three players for their best three season peak. What will they give you?

Pippen gives you 21/8 /6, 3x All NBA 1st team, 3x All D 1st team and 2x top 5 MVP finishes.

GP gives you 22/5/9, 2x All NBA 1st team, 3x All D 1st team, 1x top 5 MVP finish.

Kemp gives you 19/11/2, 0x All NBA 1st team, 0x All D 1st team, 0x top 5 MVP finishes

You could go either way with GP and Pip, but Kemp!? Get serious.

[nayte]

If we are ignoring injuries I would take hill and penny over him .otherwise maybe Stockton and Dominique . The others are close but maybe pip over them

[ImKobe]

So, Pippen did better as the clear cut #1 option than GP or Kemp ever did. Got it.





Let's just say you got one of these three players for their best three season peak. What will they give you?

Pippen gives you 21/8 /6, 3x All NBA 1st team, 3x All D 1st team and 2x top 5 MVP finishes.

GP gives you 22/5/9, 2x All NBA 1st team, 3x All D 1st team, 1x top 5 MVP finish.

Kemp gives you 19/11/2, 0x All NBA 1st team, 0x All D 1st team, 0x top 5 MVP finishes

You could go either way with GP and Pip, but Kemp!? Get serious.

GP was a DPOY and led a team to the Finals, could score at a higher rate while running the offense and playing defense just as well as Pippen. You can just go by their H2H numbers in the '96 Finals. GP put up 18/6/7 on 44% shooting while playing shutdown defense on MJ in the last 3 games vs. Pippen putting up 16/8/6 on 34% shooting and not shutting down anyone.

Are you really counting the 1996 one, where Scottie had ZERO first place votes, when MJ was basically a unanimous MVP and Scottie just fed off that success. The Bulls were also 5 - 0 without him in that 72-win season.

[Jasper]

I picked (other)

Giannis


Pip was not Clydes equal in College - so Clyde would be it.

[Hey Yo]

Give me Hill. Best combo of athleticism, height/length, D, and the ability to be "the man" on the O end. Hill is severely underrated. We never got to see a prime Hill anyways but he would've been the best player from this group imo.

Next, probably Drexler. Dude was something special too. People don't realize how much there was a comparison between him and MJ leading up to the 1992 finals.
:oldlol: :oldlol:

The comparison was they played the same position. That's where it stopped.

Before 1992, Clyde played 8 seasons and made All-NBA 3x. Zero All-defensive. No scoring titles. Wasn't even a full time starter until his 4th season.

Yeah, real comparable :rolleyes:

[LostCause]

:oldlol: :oldlol:

The comparison was they played the same position. That's where it stopped.

Before 1992, Clyde played 8 seasons and made All-NBA 3x. Zero All-defensive. No scoring titles. Wasn't even a full time starter until his 4th season.

Yeah, real comparable :rolleyes:

Nah they were definitely being compared. Drexler was literally 2nd in MVP voting that season so I don't even know what your argument is here. Dude averaged 25/7/7 that season (Also why are you listing career accolades? They don't matter, we aren't comparing their career accomplishments)

From the LA Times:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-06-04-sp-1212-story.html

CHICAGO —

For Coach Phil Jackson, who said his Chicago Bulls didn’t have an edge at any position in this series, this game’s for you.

The Portland Trail Blazers may be better rested, stronger, deeper and faster, but the Bulls have Michael Jordan, who scored 35 points before halftime Wednesday night in a 122-89 massacre that gave his team a 1-0 lead in the NBA finals.

That was after Game 1, where Jordan made a point to separate himself from Drexler with his shooting

[Hey Yo]

Nah they were definitely being compared. Drexler was literally 2nd in MVP voting that season so I don't even know what your argument is here. Dude averaged 25/7/7 that season (Also why are you listing career accolades? They don't matter, we aren't comparing their career accomplishments)

From the LA Times:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-06-04-sp-1212-story.html


That was after Game 1, where Jordan made a point to separate himself from Drexler with his shooting
What had Drexler done up until the 1992 season to be compared to MJ?? Absolutely nothing.

If Clyde was up and coming in like his 3rd year, then I could see it, but he had been in the league longer than MJ and all of a sudden they want to compare Drexler to MJ 8yrs later going into the Finals??

Regardless who's playing in the Finals, each teams top scorer are going to get compared in some capacity.

Do you really think Clyde's all around game was comparable to MJ's?

[stalkerforlife]

These kids obviously never saw Pippen play.

Severely limited offensively.

[LostCause]

What had Drexler done up until the 1992 season to be compared to MJ?? Absolutely nothing.

If Clyde was up and coming in like his 3rd year, then I could see it, but he had been in the league longer than MJ and all of a sudden they want to compare Drexler to MJ 8yrs later going into the Finals??

Regardless who's playing in the Finals, each teams top scorer are going to get compared in some capacity.

Do you really think Clyde's all around game was comparable to MJ's?

Again, you keep bringing up career accolades. That doesn't matter when we're talking about a specific point in time. Heading into the 92 Finals, Drexler was definitely being compared to Jordan and it wasn't just due ot playing the same position. Again, he finished 2nd in MVP voting. I can't see what your point is there. Did he finish 2nd simply because he was a SG? (For reference, prior to 92 he finished 6th in 91, 5th in 87)

In the stretch from 88-92 he averaged 25/7/6/2/1 on 50% shooting

All around game? Drexler was pretty good yeah. Not as good for as long as Jordan was, but he was comparable during this period. Here's another reference from that time on it:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-06-02-sp-384-story.html

“I found out how false that statement is,” Ainge said. “There’s no question that Clyde plays harder sometimes. There’s not a player in the world who’s played the game who does not have real intense spurts, but Clyde plays harder than any player I’ve ever played with and does more.

“He plays defense, he rebounds, he blocks shots, he sets up his teammates and he scores. He does all the things very similar to what Michael Jordan does. And I don’t know how you could do all those things in a game on a team that has been averaging 60 wins for three years and not play hard.”

[egokiller]

Lefail stans showcasing what little they know about Pippen and Drexler in this thread.:lol

[tontoz]

These kids obviously never saw Pippen play.

Severely limited offensively.

This is actually true. He was a weak shooter from everywhere outside 3 feet.

I picked Drexler. I think Reggie should rank pretty high for his ability to be productive off the ball. Stockton is a good choice too.

[3ball]

I remember KBlaze had made that Eddie Murphy post, where he'd show you saying that inflated stats from today's cupcake era couldn't be comparable to players of prior eras; but then he'd show you in a pro Jordan/anti LeBron thread arguing that some current players numbers do in fact prove they're equal or greater than another player of the past. Literal textbook definition right here :oldlol:


^^^ I mostly don't read Kblaze's long rants and never knew what that post said, so thanks for summarizing it for me.

But his post was apparently a farce - if I rant against today's inflated stats, then that benefits the pro Jordan/anti-Lebron argument, hence me posting in that thread.. :hammerhead:...

And I would never argue today's players against prior eras - I'm a prior era guy - so that's another thing he made up.. if he was talking about me posting the many horrible series where pippen averaged 15 on 33% - those stats and efficiency are too horrific to be salvaged by era changes...

There will always be exceptions to stat inflation like non-shooters from prior eras playing today - they would obviously fare worse in today's era, so that includes pippen, who couldn't shoot from anywhere - FT, mid-range, 3-point - all garbage





I remember KBlaze made that Eddie Murphy post a while back, where he'd show you criticizing today's players numbers being inflated due to pace and rule changes,


This thread isn't comparing Pippen to today's players - we're comparing him to his own era

This is another example of your brain literally making stuff up because you can't argue against the point being made.. it's become the standard for you, kblaze, lambruh, and the like





And no, you can't just completely disregard the massive difference between the Pip and Drexler of them on the defensive end


Except there isn't a big difference - Drexler matches Pippen in steals/blocks, and also had the 3rd-ranked team defense during the first 3-peat (with only Buck Williams as a good defensive teammate), while Pippen had the 7th and 4th ranked defense, despite having MJ/Grant

And Pippen simply never shut down anyone notable as the primary defender - virtually everyone got theirs on him, in virtually every series.

The facts aren't on your side, but this "pippen is a god defender" groupthink has gone on long enough that the facts and actual sentiment at the time doesn't matter anymore

Btw, 92' Drexler was literally being compared to Jordan - and yet you guys are saying pippen was better





And here you go blatantly making shit up. Kyrie's series against the Bucks, by almost any conceivable measure, was significantly worse than Pippen was vs. the Knicks


Kyrie was bad, but his team had no chance against the Bucks, so he didn't choke in 3 clear-cut instances like Pippen

Otoh, Pippen's 3-peat system gave the Bulls a chance, but he had poor stats plus the legendary sit-out choke in Game 3... and the beginners-foul choke in Game 5... and a horrible Game 7... That's 3 chokes in the clutch that cost his team the series..

So again, Pippen's stats and cast were ho-hum in 94' (no 2 stars like payton/kemp and other teams) - he simply rode a 3-peat system to 55 wins before flaming out in the 2nd round like 19' Kyrie.. as was said originally..
..

[Stringer Bell]

3ball:

"Kemp was better than Pippen because he led the 96 Sonics in scoring on the way to the finals and got FMVP votes. While pippen couldn't get out of the 2nd round as leading scorer."

But hang on...

"GP wad better than Pippen because he led the 96 Sonics to 64 wins. While pippen couldn't lead a team to more than 55 wins."

So, the sonics had two players who were All NBA level first options? Perhaps that's why they won 64 and made the finals. (Just like the Bulls) Just a thought.

This is the logic we're dealing with.

It's this over and over again. Teams with 2+ stars where he gives credit to one or the other depending an the agenda at the time, therefore stating they achieved more than Pippen, but neglecting to mention that they had a second star by their side.

This guy is disturbed. He

[3ball]

What had Drexler done up until the 1992 season to be compared to MJ?? Absolutely nothing.



Peak Clyde before 1992 was equal to regular Lebron:


Drexler 88', 89' RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drexlcl01.html). 27.1 ppg.. 3.5 oreb.. 3.8 dreb.. 5.8 apg.. 3.1 tov.. 50.1 fg . 2.6 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 120 ortg
Lebron. Career (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):..... 27.2 ppg . 1.2 oreb.. 6.2 dreb.. 7.1 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 50.4 fg.. 1.6 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 116 ortg


Of course lebron's stats are inflated due to era, so advantage clyde

[bigkingsfan]

25-5

[3ball]

25-5
A lot of alts on the Pippen side, yet still barely a majority (52%)

Take away the alts and the majority of the votes become non-Pippen

Also, pippen would dip even lower if we removed the 6 ring bias and objectively look at performance (never locked down anyone notable as the primary defender; only worth the #7 team defense; pedestrian stats with only 16 and 5 apg for career; never had a memorable/legendary series; never #1 option in a championship run, or over Kukoc; 2nd round flame-out, never hit a big shot; couldn't shoot, many series of 15 on 33%).... and much more

[SouBeachTalents]

^^^ I mostly don't read Kblaze's long rants and never knew what that post said, so thanks for summarizing it for me.

But his post was apparently a farce - if I rant against today's inflated stats, then that benefits the pro Jordan/anti-Lebron argument, hence me posting in that thread.. :hammerhead:...

And I would never argue today's players against prior eras - I'm a prior era guy - so that's another thing he made up.. if he was talking about me posting the many horrible series where pippen averaged 15 on 33% - those stats and efficiency are too horrific to be salvaged by era changes...

There will always be exceptions to stat inflation like non-shooters from prior eras playing today - they would obviously fare worse in today's era, so that includes pippen, who couldn't shoot from anywhere - FT, mid-range, 3-point - all garbage



This thread isn't comparing Pippen to today's players - we're comparing him to his own era

This is another example of your brain literally making stuff up because you can't argue against the point being made.. it's become the standard for you, kblaze, lambruh, and the like



Except there isn't a big difference - Drexler matches Pippen in steals/blocks, and also had the 3rd-ranked team defense during the first 3-peat (with only Buck Williams as a good defensive teammate), while Pippen had the 7th and 4th ranked defense, despite having MJ/Grant

And Pippen simply never shut down anyone notable as the primary defender - virtually everyone got theirs on him, in virtually every series.

The facts aren't on your side, but this "pippen is a god defender" groupthink has gone on long enough that the facts and actual sentiment at the time doesn't matter anymore

Btw, 92' Drexler was literally being compared to Jordan - and yet you guys are saying pippen was better



Kyrie was bad, but his team had no chance against the Bucks, so he didn't choke in 3 clear-cut instances like Pippen

Otoh, Pippen's 3-peat system gave the Bulls a chance, but he had poor stats plus the legendary sit-out choke in Game 3... and the beginners-foul choke in Game 5... and a horrible Game 7... That's 3 chokes in the clutch that cost his team the series..

So again, Pippen's stats and cast were ho-hum in 94' (no 2 stars like payton/kemp and other teams) - he simply rode a 3-peat system to 55 wins before flaming out in the 2nd round like 19' Kyrie.. as was said originally..
..
Nikka you literally changed the contents of my post. I didn't even mention Drexler. It's not just your obsessive asperger tendencies that are bad, it's the fact you blatantly lie and are completely disingenuous about shit that's the even bigger problem

[BarberSchool]

Penny Hardaway
Scottie Pippen
Dominique Wilkins
Grant Hill
Clyde Drexler

[Manny98]

Landslide victory for the Pippen fam :hammertime:

https://media.giphy.com/media/l46CbUJPXiDPEkJcA/giphy.gif

[bigkingsfan]

A lot of alts on the Pippen side, yet still barely a majority (52%)

Take away the alts and the majority of the votes become non-Pippen

Also, pippen would dip even lower if we removed the 6 ring bias and objectively look at performance (never locked down anyone notable as the primary defender; only worth the #7 team defense; pedestrian stats with only 16 and 5 apg for career; never had a memorable/legendary series; never #1 option in a championship run, or over Kukoc; 2nd round flame-out, never hit a big shot; couldn't shoot, many series of 15 on 33%).... and much more
Five times the player Drexler was.

25-5

[And1AllDay]

1. scottie with 26
2. hill with 5

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[bizil]

The two most premium types of players in league history are:

- Dominant centers or PF-C types who can dominate the paint

- Perimeter players 6'5 and up who can play a minimum of three positions well. And from there are great scorers AND great all around players in one package.

If u look at the top 10 players of all time ALL OF THEM fit one of those groups. If u look at all the MVP's in league history, MOST of them come from one of these groups. So for me, Hill, Penny, and Drexler would be my top 3. They are prototype guys who fit that 2nd group.

From there it comes down to the two way ability of Payton and Pippen. And the scoring dominance of Dominique. All the players I named were AT ONE POINT considered in the top 10 players in the world. And one of the top 2 players at their position at one point in time. The other guys while great HOF players were never quite considered top 10 players in the world!