The more I think about it, MJ, Kobe, and LeBron have to be the top 3

[MoBe1Kanobi]

Seriously

When it comes to actual greatness

Money

Women

Ability

Longevity

Idolization

How relevant you are to the whole entire sports social culture zeitgeist of it all

...

As much as I can't stand LeBron, he has to be in the top 3 with Kobe and MJ

What I don't get are people who bring up other names when we clearly know that these three are the only discussed about players, not just on ISH, but on the planet

Seriously Ive thought about this

From pretty much this point forward the entire philosophical debate about basketball will be held around the basis of these three players pretty much

From a Kobe fan"s perspective this is fair to LeBron, as much as I think he underachieves

[305Baller]

haha what a faggg

[RRR3]

They are the 3 most popular players ever. That doesn’t make them the 3 best.

[MoBe1Kanobi]

[QUOTE=RRR3]They are the 3 most popular players ever. That doesn

[Turbo Slayer]

Yes that's fact

but that's not my reasoning as to why they are the GOATs

I'm saying they're the greatest ever because the fact that they are the most popular along with the fact that they all can be argued as the greatest player ever individually.

The fact that they are so much more culturally relevant than whoever 4th 5th or 6th place is in popularity kind of needs to be factored into parts of their actual greatness when we assess their legacy. true tbh

[StrongLurk]

Is OP serious?

Wilt, Bill Russell, Magic, and Bird were all just as popular as the three players you mentioned. (except for MJ). Imagine in 30 years when people in the newer generations don't give a **** about MJ, Kobe or Lebron...

[SpaceJam]

[QUOTE=RRR3]They are the 3 most popular players ever. That doesn

[Smoke117]

This isn't a popularity contest. Kobe isn't top 10 and LeBron is barely top 5 if top 5 at all. Kareem is also the real GOAT.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This isn't a popularity contest. Kobe isn't top 10 and LeBron is barely top 5 if top 5 at all. Kareem is also the real GOAT.

Who do you got ranked over Bron?

And no. Kobe is Top 10. The guy's prime lasted from 01-10, averaging second 3-peat Jordan numbers. Regular season and playoffs. Won multiple titles along the way too.

[MoBe1Kanobi]

Is OP serious?

Wilt, Bill Russell, Magic, and Bird were all just as popular as the three players you mentioned. (except for MJ). Imagine in 30 years when people in the newer generations don't give a **** about MJ, Kobe or Lebron...

I don't know

For whatever reasons I think all MJ, Kobe, and LeBron will always be culturally iconic BECAUSE they all came before social media so they're still mythical somewhat as far as not being over exposed on camera 24/7 since birth.

I think these three may be even more relevant 150 yrs from now than they were today tbh as crazy as that may sound

Jordans may cost on average $1,500 in the future and Kobe's might be $1k, shit like that

Every athlete from this point forward forward will be over exposed

[AlternativeAcc.]

Nope

Bird/Magic were much more relevant in their days than Kobe and much better players too

Bad take.

[Smoke117]

Who do you got ranked over Bron?

And no. Kobe is Top 10. The guy's prime lasted from 01-10, averaging second 3-peat Jordan numbers. Regular season and playoffs. Won multiple titles along the way too.

Kobe never had the actual impact of a 2nd threepeat Jordan except the 98 version. Mike was far superior in 96 and 97 than Kobe ever was by impact. If you go by actual impact on the court Kobe wouldn't even be top 30. People put too much stock in winning it all. This isn't tennis, but a team game. A guy like David Robinson was far more impactful than Kobe ever was. If you replaced Robinson with Kobe on those 90s Spur teams they'd win about 20 games less.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe never had the actual impact of a 2nd threepeat Jordan except the 98 version. Mike was far superior in 96 and 97 than Kobe ever was by impact. If you go by actual impact on the court Kobe wouldn't even be top 30. People put too much stock in winning it all. This isn't tennis, but a team game. A guy like David Robinson was far more impactful than Kobe ever was. If you replaced Robinson with Kobe on those 90s Spur teams they'd win about 20 games less.

Where are you getting your "actual impact" from?

Because from what I've seen, Kobe led some of the best offenses in the league. And fairs favorably in RAPM during the years he won without Shaq. Matter of fact? In 2009 and 2010, Kobe was atop the list in playoff RAPM.

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/season/2008-09/playoffs/
https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/season/2009-10/playoffs/

[Smoke117]

Where are you getting your "actual impact" from?

Because from what I've seen, Kobe led some of the best offenses in the league. And fairs favorably in RAPM during the years he won without Shaq. Matter of fact? In 2009 and 2010, Kobe was atop the list in playoff RAPM.

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/season/2008-09/playoffs/
https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/season/2009-10/playoffs/

Lamar Odom was so underrated. If you listen to Kobe stans he was basically garbage. :facepalm

[3ball]

Lebron plays exactly like cp3, westbrook, harden, etc - he dribbles the ball out top, and has 4 shooters around him

This is weak brand and very basic way to play - it represents a lower-caliber skillset then the guys that win a lot more, i.e. Curry, Kobe, Bird, MJ, Durant, Kawhi

These guys are elite on-ball and off-ball, which fits with any player type, thereby maximizing team ceiling and brand.. otoh, Lebron is only elite on-ball, which only fits with shooters, thereby lowering team ceiling and brand

^^^ this is the reason lebron won less than Kobe/MJ and had weaker teams despite greater talent (a third star, aka Big 3's)

Essentially, the Harden/CP3/Westbrook skillset that Lebron has infact DOESN'T WIN, but Lebron team-hopped for sufficient talent to force through this suboptimal style and win a few, still mostly losing though
..

[Smoke117]

Lebron plays exactly like cp3, westbrook, harden, etc - he dribbles the ball out top, and has 4 shooters around him

This is weak brand and very basic way to play - it represents a lower-caliber skillset then the guys that win a lot more, i.e. Curry, Kobe, Bird, MJ, Durant, Kawhi

These guys are elite on-ball and off-ball, which fits with any player type, thereby
maximizing team ceiling and brand.. otoh, Lebron is only elite on-ball, which only fits with shooters, thereby lowering team ceiling and brand

^^^ this is the reason lebron won less than Kobe/MJ and had weaker teams despite greater talent (a third star, aka Big 3's)

Essentially, the Harden/CP3/Westbrook skillset that Lebron has infact DOESN'T WIN, but Lebron team-hopped for sufficient talent to force through this suboptimal style and win a few, still mostly losing though


Kareem >>> MJ.

[RRR3]

You can tell 3ball never watched LeBron play in Miami. He was really good off ball there.

[Smoke117]

You can tell 3ball never watched LeBron play in Miami. He was really good off ball there.

Reading 3balls post about recent basketball is like reading your posts about politics...just inane and uninformed nonsense.

[RRR3]

Reading 3balls post about recent basketball is like reading your posts about politics...just inane and uninformed nonsense.
Meltdown.

[3ball]

Kareem >>> MJ.
Kareem wasn't the best player for at least 3 of his rings, if not 4

So MJ won as "the man" 3 times as much (6 rings to 2)

Kareem also needed 9 guys that were all-stars alongside him to win 6 rings (25 appearances), while MJ needed 1 all-star teammate (6 appearances)

So MJ >>>> because he won as "the man" 3 times as much as Kareem, with 1/9th the all-star help .

:cheers:

[RRR3]

3ball always “forgets” Dennis Rodman and Horace Grant (and B.J. Armstrong not to be fair he wasn’t really a legit all star) were all-stars.

I’m not sure who you’re including as “all-star” help for Kareem btw but if you’re including washed up guys, then MJ had Bill Cartwright and Robert Parish.

[Smoke117]

Kareem wasn't the best player for at least 3 of his rings, if not 4

So MJ won as "the man" 3 times as much (6 rings to 2)

Kareem also needed 9 guys that were all-stars alongside him to win 6 rings (25 appearances), while MJ needed 1 all-star teammate (6 appearances)

So MJ >>>> because he won as "the man" 3 times as much as Kareem, with 1/9th the all-star help .

:cheers:

Kareem >>>>>>>>>>> MJ

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[WadeBronDonJuan]

Is OP serious?

Wilt, Bill Russell, Magic, and Bird were all just as popular as the three players you mentioned. (except for MJ). Imagine in 30 years when people in the newer generations don't give a **** about MJ, Kobe or Lebron...

All 3 will be bigger than ever in 30 years in terms of legendary status. Are you nuts?

[Smoke117]

Is OP serious?

Wilt, Bill Russell, Magic, and Bird were all just as popular as the three players you mentioned. (except for MJ). Imagine in 30 years when people in the newer generations don't give a **** about MJ, Kobe or Lebron...

lol Wilt and Bill Russell? Give me a break. Basketball wasn't close to as popular as it became after the 80s. Wilt was somewhat big, but Bill Russell? Give me a break. He wasn't even a quarter of as famous as Wilt and Wilt wasn't even that famous to begin with as basketball just wasn't big back then.

[3ball]

You can tell 3ball never watched LeBron play in Miami. He was really good off ball there.
^^^ Simply playing off-ball a little isn't being "real good" off-ball


Assisted rate (the percentage of his FG's that teammates are passing to him for buckets, aka assisting him)

Lebron 2011 RS - 32.3%
Lebron 2011 PO - 31.6%

Lebron 2012 RS - 37.4%
Lebron 2012 PO - 31.9%

Lebron 2013 RS - 43.4%
Lebron 2013 PO - 40.1%

Lebron 2014 RS - 41.6%
Lebron 2014 PO - 31.8%


^^^ Crazy-low for a forward - that's PG-level... So he turns a normally high-assisted position (forward) into a low-assisted one, thereby lowering the assist capacity of the team..

So his teams have weaker ball movement and brand that gets massively out-assisted in the Finals

[Smoke117]

The funniest thing about 3ball is everything he says is stat related. I'm not even sure he actually watched Jordan play since every single one of his arguments breaks down to ppgz. Nothing he ever says actually makes you believe he actually watched the Bulls.

[3ball]

The funniest thing about 3ball is everything he says is stat related. I'm not even sure he actually watched Jordan play since every single one of his arguments breaks down to ppgz. Nothing he ever says actually makes you believe he actually watched the Bulls.
Actually, I used to only post eye test stuff, but my takes were non-traditional and got laughed off of forums

So I started looking for stats to back up my eye test

And sure enough there's plenty... there were time of possession stats that showed Lebron held the ball longer than anyone ever has and at a PG-level .. this excessive time lowered teammates' time and assists, which resulted in low TEAM assists and getting massively out-assisted in the Finals...

These are all statistical facts... And the previous post shows lebron's lower assisted-tate for a forward lowers the assist capacity of his teams... So there's tons of data PROVING the eye test that Lebron's ball-dominance has negative effects on teamwork and brand

[ImKobe]

Kobe never had the actual impact of a 2nd threepeat Jordan except the 98 version. Mike was far superior in 96 and 97 than Kobe ever was by impact. If you go by actual impact on the court Kobe wouldn't even be top 30. People put too much stock in winning it all. This isn't tennis, but a team game. A guy like David Robinson was far more impactful than Kobe ever was. If you replaced Robinson with Kobe on those 90s Spur teams they'd win about 20 games less.


:lol :lol

David Robinson was so impactful that he lost to a 6th-seeded Rockets squad in 6 games the year he won MVP and had the best record in the Conference. He had more help than Kobe and got embarrassed once facing an actual all-time great.

Kobe OTOH was already leading his team to a top 3 seed without an all-star teammate or any elite offensive help and then beat the defending champions Spurs in 5 games to make the Finals. How can you say that Robinson was more impactful than Kobe when he couldn't even lead one team to the Finals despite having more help than most players in the 90s?

He had Sean Elliot (2x all-star, 20 ppg scorer in his prime), Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, even Dennis Rodman that MVP season, Terry Cummings earlier in his career when he was All-NBA and a bunch of other guys. ZERO Finals appearances. He lost twice in the first round as a higher seed on 55-win teams.

[MoBe1Kanobi]

At the end of the day whether we like it or not the only players that matter are

Michael Jordan

Kobe Bryant

and um

LeBron James

:confusedshrug:

Resume is definitely arguable for consideration for all 3 except Jordan who is obviously the barometer

But at the end of the day... 1000 years from now when they discuss this game, these may be the only players whose names are still of somewhat mythical status because they played in the digital hd yet grainy footage era pre social media, literally the perfect storm for marketing a capable super athlete

[DaHeezy]

Greatness is subjective. Rankings are basically one's personal opinion on what they find the most appealing to their own agendas. I have no problem with those 3 mentioned as GOAT.

[guy]

At the end of the day whether we like it or not the only players that matter are

Michael Jordan

Kobe Bryant

and um

LeBron James

:confusedshrug:

Resume is definitely arguable for consideration for all 3 except Jordan who is obviously the barometer

But at the end of the day... 1000 years from now when they discuss this game, these may be the only players whose names are still of somewhat mythical status because they played in the digital hd yet grainy footage era pre social media, literally the perfect storm for marketing a capable super athlete

Kobe can

[MoBe1Kanobi]

[QUOTE=guy]Kobe can

[guy]

Let's keep it real

Everyday a new top 10 comes out that leaves Kobe off

And guess what else

Everyday that new list makes headline morning news on every sports talk show

See a correlation?

Say what you want about Kobe but he clearly has an argument that stacks up with any GOAT depending on how you want to prioritize certain aspects of a career vs others... The undisputable fact though is that he's so much more culturally and socially relevant to his sport and society than everyone outside the other two players in the top 3, Jordan and LeBron

As time goes by and more great players are ranked ahead of him, the uproars caused by these lists will disappear.

He doesn

[RealSkipBayless]

Let's keep it real

Everyday a new top 10 comes out that leaves Kobe off

And guess what else

Everyday that new list makes headline morning news on every sports talk show

See a correlation?

Say what you want about Kobe but he clearly has an argument that stacks up with any GOAT depending on how you want to prioritize certain aspects of a career vs others... The undisputable fact though is that he's so much more culturally and socially relevant to his sport and society than everyone outside the other two players in the top 3, Jordan and LeBron
The funny thing is that those lists are meaningless. Often time it's just ONE journalist's opinion representing an entire network. Even by the rare chance it's a panel of people, the majority of them go nameless. Yet when you ask people who played the game, it's rare you will see Kobe outside of the top 5.

[SouBeachTalents]

Let's keep it real

Everyday a new top 10 comes out that leaves Kobe off

And guess what else

Everyday that new list makes headline morning news on every sports talk show

See a correlation?

Say what you want about Kobe but he clearly has an argument that stacks up with any GOAT depending on how you want to prioritize certain aspects of a career vs others... The undisputable fact though is that he's so much more culturally and socially relevant to his sport and society than everyone outside the other two players in the top 3, Jordan and LeBron
He has no good argument against Jordan & Kareem, they even render the rangz argument moot

[Turbo Slayer]

LeGOAT keeps winning! :bowdown: